Author Topic: Wisdom 2:12-20  (Read 958 times)

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Offline Dracula

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Re: Wisdom 2:12-20
« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2015, 10:04:36 AM »
wgw, I agree, 4th century church was great. And they gave us the Bible.

It was quite horrible. Theodosius practically forced all to convert to the nicene formula making it the official religion of the empire.

Quote
During his reign, Theodosius intimately linked church and state to the point in which church overruled emperors. Ambrose played a big role in this since he was a close political and spiritual advisor to Theodosius. Theodosius decided to link the two for unity and attempted to end church disputes. Ironically, Theodosius persecuted pagans but was reprimanded by the church for the massacre at Thessalonica. The situation at Thessalonica set the tone for the relationship between church and state. When Theodosius consented to Ambrose's rule, this was the first time that a secular ruler submitted to the church (King, 1960). Another victory for the church was when Valentinian and Theodosius did not restore the Altar of Victory after Symmachus continued to petition for it to be restored. Ambrose pressured Valentinian through a letter to not restore the Altar of Victory. The church's influence ultimately won this decisive battle against Symmachus and the pagans because of Ambrose's strong presence over Valentinian and Theodosius (King, 1960). As a result of these decisive victories for the church, the once underground religion ruled the Empire.

(...)

During Theodosius' reign, the churches supremacy over the state was a major accomplishment. Ambrose's influence and the idea to link the two for unity established the church during this era. During this time, Theodosius summoned a new ecumenical council at Constantinople to repair the East and West on the basis of Nicene Orthodoxy (Williams & Friell, 1995). He made the Catholic Church and Nicean Christianity the official state religion of the Roman Empire. While Theodosius was a great ruler, he was heavily influenced by Ambrose. He constantly wanted the acceptance of the church and after the massacre at Thessalonica to clear his conscience and soul and did just about anything to get reinstated. Theodosius came up with harsh new laws against the pagans and continued to persecute pagan religions. In the end, Theodosius was the turning point in the relationship between church and state. He was the last man to ever be the sole emperor of the Roman Empire. http://www.sau.edu/The_Academy_for_the_Study_of_St_Ambrose_of_Milan/Students_and_Scholars/Joosten.html


Quote
In order to understand how Christians were brought to this state of warfare, we have to reconstruct the main facts of the relations between the Church and the Roman State. The Christian Church first appeared in history as a fellowship of self-governing communities, scattered all over the empire, and spreading even beyond its borders. There was nothing compulsory about their unity: it arose organically from a deep realisation, shared by its members, that they all belonged to the same body, since they had all been born into the same new life. But from the fourth century, when these Christian communities received the protection of the Emperor, their constitution underwent a radical change; they lost their independence and became subject to the control of the State. Formerly, if any dispute arose within the Church, it had been settled by negotiation; but once the patronage of the Empire was granted, the Emperors began to use their political power to maintain unity among Christians, often inflicting severe penalties on those they deemed to be in the wrong.

The Emperors' intentions were praiseworthy: they wished to preserve peace and concord; but their methods were those of the old unredeemed world, and the results were fatal. The more they tried to suppress by force the disagreements among Christians the more bitter the conflicts became, until at last the Church was split up into several hostile bodies. Most of the schisms were caused by national and temperamental divergences among members of the Christian Church, but once the spirit of mutual charity had been lost, differences in doctrine made their appearance, for the divided Christian Churches fell into one-sided interpretations of the faith.

The first split appeared in the fourth century in North Africa, where the Roman and native Christians separated into two competing sects (the Donatist Schism). In the fifth century the Greeks and Copts quarrelled in Egypt, and simultaneously a split occurred after the Council of Chalcedon (451 AD) in Asia Minor and Syria between the Greeks and Syrians (the Monophysite Schism). Later on the Christians in Persia broke off relations with the Byzantine Church (the Nestorian Schism). These quarrels, disastrous as they were, did not however affect the main body of Christians, who tenaciously clung to their unity, firmly believing that there could be only one Church and one Empire. Meanwhile, during the course of the fifth, sixth and seventh centuries the Catholic Church developed two distinct types of Christianity. The first was shared by all Latin-speaking Christians, who formed the Western Patriarchate of Rome. The second comprised the Syriac, Armenian and Greek-speaking world, which was divided into four Eastern Patriarchates of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem. http://www.the-orb.net/textbooks/eccles/relations.html
It's a horrible idea that God, this paragon of wisdom and knowledge, power, couldn't think of a better way to forgive us our sins than to come down to Earth in his alter ego as his son and have himself hideously tortured and executed so that he could forgive himself. Richard Dawkins

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Wisdom 2:12-20
« Reply #46 on: June 29, 2015, 01:01:08 PM »
Pasadi is speaking from the heart, which is steeped in Orthodoxy. His English might be imperfect, but so often his posts easily trump book knowledge.

Do you have some examples?

That post of his, for one. Some of us have lived long enough to know.

Well, if LBK and orthonorm agree, it must be true. 
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Wisdom 2:12-20
« Reply #47 on: June 29, 2015, 01:30:11 PM »
So would you suggest that all laypersons devote their time to understanding such matters and writing treatises so that we can all each come to an understanding and then talk to our Protestant neighbors with our own works in hand?

No...I'm suggesting that those who us who know the answer to the Original Post's question should do so in a more complete answer, and not just say "because the Church said so".  We don't have to write treatises.  They're already written for us.  We can simply reiterate what we have learned from them.

Treatises from the Orthodox POV are of little value to those who recognize no authority but their own.

Which has nothing to do with anyone in this thread.

Please go back and read what DeniseDenise and I have posted. It is you who has missed the point.

If you don't want to clarify, it's your business, not mine.  Don't expect that people will not criticize what you say.  Your "the church says so" and "go back and reread" tells a lot about your inability to have a cogent discussion.

Not at all. Moreover, DeniseDenise's posts approach the matter from a different perspective. Please don't be lazy, Mina, you're better than that.

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Wisdom 2:12-20
« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2015, 10:48:28 AM »
BTW, LBK, I notice that you have thus far said nothing to engage Justin's critique of your position. I would like to see you address it with a well-conceived, thoughtful defense.

Selections from the book of Wisdom are read as part of Great Vespers for many feasts. The Church has seen it fit to incorporate this book into the liturgical cycle, rendering the idea of it as "spurious" as null and void.

The voice of the Church trumps the opinion of individuals.

The main issue I have with this is that I've never seen in Scripture, the early fathers, the later fathers, church councils, contemporary theologians, or even the hymns and icons themselves, support for (let alone an authoritative and definitive teaching of) this idea of hymns and the like being some kind of final arbiter or supreme authority for answering questions and explaining the faith. Unless there are a bunch of things out there that I've missed, what you endorse is an innovation that is not that much different than sola scriptura, except that Scripture is replaced with hymns and icons. If you want to erect such a hedge around yourself that is your business, but I see no reason anyone else should adopt it and abandon a maximalistic approach, as for example spoken of by Met. Kallistos in The Orthodox Church:

Quote
Orthodox are always talking about Tradition. What do they mean by the word? A tradition, says the Oxford Dictionary, is an opinion, belief, or custom handed down from ancestors to posterity. Christian Tradition, in that case, is the faith which Jesus Christ imparted to the Apostles, and which since the Apostles’ time has been handed down from generation to generation in the Church (Compare Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:3). But to an Orthodox Christian, Tradition means something more concrete and specific than this. It means the books of the Bible; it means the Creed; it means the decrees of the Ecumenical Councils and the writings of the Fathers; it means the Canons, the Service Books, the Holy Icons — in fact, the whole system of doctrine, Church government, worship, and art which Orthodoxy has articulated over the ages. The Orthodox Christian of today sees himself as heir and guardian to a great inheritance received from the past, and he believes that it is his duty to transmit this inheritance unimpaired to the future.

But if you know of multiple and variedly-sourced attestations to hymns being the gatekeeper of the faith once delivered, by all means post about them and I will reconsider.
Still waiting, LBK...
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 10:49:52 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Raylight

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Re: Wisdom 2:12-20
« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2015, 06:27:41 PM »
As several members pointed out here. Saying to me or to any other person who is not Orthodox, that we should accept the Book of Wisdom just because the Orthodox Church says so, is not an answer. It is harmful more than it is good, because it may be seen as lack of answer. It is like saying because the Bible says so. That doesn't explain that much or answer any question except for someone who is Christian and holds the Bible as the highest authority. It is like saying, God doesn't exist because Richard Dawkins say so.

So far, I didn't get a very clear Orthodox answer to the question, Is it a sin to not believe that the book of wisdom is inspired ? In the Catholic Church I think it is sinful, because the Catholic Church clearly says that the book of wisdom is inspired. In Orthodoxy however, there are several types of Bibles for several Churches. For example, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church is believed to have the largest Bible, even books that do not exist in the Septuagint. Does that mean the rest of Orthodox Christian are committing a sin by denying the these books are inspired ? I don't think so.  Is it a requirement to believe that God inspired the second canonical books are fully inspired by God ? 
I will continue to label myself Christian, and Anglican, in respect for my baptism. Even though I still struggle with doubts. I don't believe it is fair to dismiss it that easily because of some doubt.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Wisdom 2:12-20
« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2015, 06:52:38 PM »
Ray,

I believe so.  There is no Orthodox Church that does not have the book of Wisdom in its canon.  All EOs and OOs have it and recommend it as inspired.

It's not necessarily a "sin" to have your doubts on it, but it certainly is something of importance in church tradition that should not be glossed over.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 06:53:12 PM by minasoliman »
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Online genesisone

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Re: Wisdom 2:12-20
« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2015, 06:57:52 PM »

So far, I didn't get a very clear Orthodox answer to the question, Is it a sin to not believe that the book of wisdom is inspired ? In the Catholic Church I think it is sinful, because the Catholic Church clearly says that the book of wisdom is inspired. In Orthodoxy however, there are several types of Bibles for several Churches. For example, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church is believed to have the largest Bible, even books that do not exist in the Septuagint. Does that mean the rest of Orthodox Christian are committing a sin by denying the these books are inspired ? I don't think so.  Is it a requirement to believe that God inspired the second canonical books are fully inspired by God ? 
I fear you're not going to get a "very clear Orthodox answer". The general view is that God inspired many writings (Scriptures) which the Church uses in different ways. The Gospels are certainly the central texts since they present so very clearly the life and ministry of Jesus Christ. The Epistles and perhaps the Psalms are next in line. It gets a bit fuzzy after that. Does that mean that the Gospels are "more fully inspired" than the Psalms? That's doesn't seem quite right. So in the same way, books such as Wisdom are inspired but are not given the same prominence in our services or use for understanding doctrine. So as minasoliman says the doubt is not a sin, but the rejection of the teaching of the Church that the book is inspired is likely a sin. (I say likely since I'm not qualified to judge.)

You're trying to get the Orthodox way of thinking to conform with RC/Protestant ways. It's putting a square peg into a round hole.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Wisdom 2:12-20
« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2015, 07:37:29 PM »
Ray,

I believe so.  There is no Orthodox Church that does not have the book of Wisdom in its canon.  All EOs and OOs have it and recommend it as inspired.

Veiled profanity removed. --Mina. Why do I even post?


Per forum rules, even a partially veiled obscenity counts as an obscenity. Therefore, you are receiving this 5-point warning to not post obscene acronyms. If you wish to appeal this action, please PM me.

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« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 01:40:01 AM by PeterTheAleut »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Wisdom 2:12-20
« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2015, 07:59:42 PM »
As several members pointed out here. Saying to me or to any other person who is not Orthodox, that we should accept the Book of Wisdom just because the Orthodox Church says so, is not an answer. It is harmful more than it is good, because it may be seen as lack of answer. It is like saying because the Bible says so. That doesn't explain that much or answer any question except for someone who is Christian and holds the Bible as the highest authority. It is like saying, God doesn't exist because Richard Dawkins say so.

So far, I didn't get a very clear Orthodox answer to the question, Is it a sin to not believe that the book of wisdom is inspired ? In the Catholic Church I think it is sinful, because the Catholic Church clearly says that the book of wisdom is inspired. In Orthodoxy however, there are several types of Bibles for several Churches. For example, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church is believed to have the largest Bible, even books that do not exist in the Septuagint. Does that mean the rest of Orthodox Christian are committing a sin by denying the these books are inspired ? I don't think so.  Is it a requirement to believe that God inspired the second canonical books are fully inspired by God ? 

Why are you asking for "a very clear Orthodox answer" to whether or not it is sinful to reject the inspiration of Wisdom when you begin by claiming "saying to me or to any other person who is not Orthodox, that we should accept the Book of Wisdom just because the Orthodox Church says so, is not an answer"? 
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Offline Raylight

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Re: Wisdom 2:12-20
« Reply #54 on: July 01, 2015, 09:20:02 PM »
Ray,

I believe so.  There is no Orthodox Church that does not have the book of Wisdom in its canon.  All EOs and OOs have it and recommend it as inspired.

It's not necessarily a "sin" to have your doubts on it, but it certainly is something of importance in church tradition that should not be glossed over.



So far, I didn't get a very clear Orthodox answer to the question, Is it a sin to not believe that the book of wisdom is inspired ? In the Catholic Church I think it is sinful, because the Catholic Church clearly says that the book of wisdom is inspired. In Orthodoxy however, there are several types of Bibles for several Churches. For example, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church is believed to have the largest Bible, even books that do not exist in the Septuagint. Does that mean the rest of Orthodox Christian are committing a sin by denying the these books are inspired ? I don't think so.  Is it a requirement to believe that God inspired the second canonical books are fully inspired by God ? 
I fear you're not going to get a "very clear Orthodox answer". The general view is that God inspired many writings (Scriptures) which the Church uses in different ways. The Gospels are certainly the central texts since they present so very clearly the life and ministry of Jesus Christ. The Epistles and perhaps the Psalms are next in line. It gets a bit fuzzy after that. Does that mean that the Gospels are "more fully inspired" than the Psalms? That's doesn't seem quite right. So in the same way, books such as Wisdom are inspired but are not given the same prominence in our services or use for understanding doctrine. So as minasoliman says the doubt is not a sin, but the rejection of the teaching of the Church that the book is inspired is likely a sin. (I say likely since I'm not qualified to judge.)

You're trying to get the Orthodox way of thinking to conform with RC/Protestant ways. It's putting a square peg into a round hole.


Now I understand. Thank you both :)
I will continue to label myself Christian, and Anglican, in respect for my baptism. Even though I still struggle with doubts. I don't believe it is fair to dismiss it that easily because of some doubt.

Offline Raylight

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Re: Wisdom 2:12-20
« Reply #55 on: July 01, 2015, 09:25:12 PM »
As several members pointed out here. Saying to me or to any other person who is not Orthodox, that we should accept the Book of Wisdom just because the Orthodox Church says so, is not an answer. It is harmful more than it is good, because it may be seen as lack of answer. It is like saying because the Bible says so. That doesn't explain that much or answer any question except for someone who is Christian and holds the Bible as the highest authority. It is like saying, God doesn't exist because Richard Dawkins say so.

So far, I didn't get a very clear Orthodox answer to the question, Is it a sin to not believe that the book of wisdom is inspired ? In the Catholic Church I think it is sinful, because the Catholic Church clearly says that the book of wisdom is inspired. In Orthodoxy however, there are several types of Bibles for several Churches. For example, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church is believed to have the largest Bible, even books that do not exist in the Septuagint. Does that mean the rest of Orthodox Christian are committing a sin by denying the these books are inspired ? I don't think so.  Is it a requirement to believe that God inspired the second canonical books are fully inspired by God ? 

Why are you asking for "a very clear Orthodox answer" to whether or not it is sinful to reject the inspiration of Wisdom when you begin by claiming "saying to me or to any other person who is not Orthodox, that we should accept the Book of Wisdom just because the Orthodox Church says so, is not an answer"?

There are two questions in this thread, and both are two separate issues. 

My question of whether it is a sin or not to believe that the book of Wisdom is not inspired in the Orthodox Church is regardless of the reasons why it is included in the Bible. I'm not asking why it is in the Bible, I'm asking whether it is necessary to accept it as a book that is good for teaching, but not inspired. The members who said "because the Church says so" are not answering this question. they are trying to answer for my question of what is the Orthodox reply to the Protestant objections of including the book of Wisdom in the Bible ? Which is not an answer.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 09:26:30 PM by Raylight »
I will continue to label myself Christian, and Anglican, in respect for my baptism. Even though I still struggle with doubts. I don't believe it is fair to dismiss it that easily because of some doubt.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Wisdom 2:12-20
« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2015, 01:03:14 AM »
Ray,

I believe so.  There is no Orthodox Church that does not have the book of Wisdom in its canon.  All EOs and OOs have it and recommend it as inspired.

Why do I even post?

My bad man!  You posted a great post.  I'm just saying BY NOW, it seems this book is in every canon.  Back then, there were many Septuagints that may or may not have included the book.  The question Ray asked is a little different than the OP.  He wants to know if it's "wrong" not to accept its inspiration.  What do you think?
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Offline wgw

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Re: Wisdom 2:12-20
« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2015, 04:27:28 AM »
wgw, I agree, 4th century church was great. And they gave us the Bible.

Indeed, most especially our father among the Saints Athanasius, through whom we also learn of St. Anthony and St. Paul the Hermit.  :)

Now, your own jurisdiction gave us much of the Paschal liturgy through the masterful work of St. Cyril of Jerusalem.  Whereas St. Cyril of Alexandria later enriched this with the Royal Hours.  Of course then I have to stop because Nestorius frustrates me too much even though he lost.    :(

So my view remains that we should use Wisdom ch. 2 in accordance with the vision of St. Athanasius, to introduce the prophecies of Isaiah and especially The Songs of the Suffering Servant to catechumens, and to show how Jews continued to receive visions of our Lord mere decades before his birth.  I have a theory that general revelation conveyed a sense of immanent expectation of a divine personage and this allowed the rise of figures like Alexander, Julius Caesar, Octavian, and in the East, Buddha and Bahubali.  Hence in the Hellenic, Egyptian and Near East the popularity of the idea of apotheosis.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Wisdom 2:12-20
« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2015, 08:43:17 AM »
Quote
I have a theory that general revelation conveyed a sense of immanent expectation of a divine personage and this allowed the rise of figures like Alexander, Julius Caesar, Octavian, and in the East, Buddha and Bahubali.

Syncretism, nothing less. Please do not dilute Orthodoxy with such flights of fancy.  :P


Instead, you extracted a picayune detail from wgw's last post and scolded him for it. In light of the above observations, that is nothing more than continuation of the harassment I told you to stop. It is off-topic, and it is focused on one individual. Pursuant to my last warning to you on this matter (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,64592.msg1302225.html#msg1302225), I am increasing your warning to 45%, the maximum I can give you without muting you.

I have opened my PM mailbox to receive an appeal from you if you choose to send one.

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« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 02:39:15 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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