Topic: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR

[Antonis]

Wow!  I just saw this in the news.  Craziness.  It does say it was called as an extraordinary session, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was fallout from the Nathan Monk scandal. Let us pray for the healing of all.  There is bound to be much pain in those in the western rite from this decision, although from what I have heard, the WR ROCOR did not appear to be well administered.

When I said this a few months ago I was attacked. 

Said what?  That it was not administered well?

Yes, one of multiple things that make me uneasy about the Western Rite. But on this forum that makes me, among other things, an orientalist and ethnophyletist.

[Cyrillic]

That was unexpected.

[Gunnarr]

At least they still have the Old Rite!

rite?

[Orthodox11]

Does anyone have any numbers as to how large the ROCOR WR (number of parishes) and how it compares to the Antiochian one? I'm interested to know how this will change the standing of the WR as a whole.

[Justin Kissel]

Someone not too long ago posted numbers that were like 26 or 27 parishes per group. From what I read a number of them left the ROCOR WR, but I'm not sure how many, so I'd just leave it at 26/27. Now you figure 10 people per parish, that comes out to about 250 to 300 people impacted by this. Not counting the internet supporters.

[Orthodox11]

Someone not too long ago posted numbers that were like 26 or 27 parishes per group. From what I read a number of them left the ROCOR WR, but I'm not sure how many, so I'd just leave it at 26/27. Now you figure 10 people per parish, that comes out to about 250 to 300 people impacted by this. Not counting the internet supporters.

Thanks. So it would basically halve the WR?

10 people per parish seems awfully small. That's just two or three families (or one priest's family). I had the impression that they were larger.

[Justin Kissel]

I could be very wrong. I thought most were either small missions, or parishes that had come in from elsewhere (e.g. Episcopalalian) and only part of the parish had come in. I shouldn't have made the post since I don't really know for sure.

[podkarpatska]

I could be very wrong. I thought most were either small missions, or parishes that had come in from elsewhere (e.g. Episcopalalian) and only part of the parish had come in. I shouldn't have made the post since I don't really know for sure.

The vicariate's website is still up. 250 souls sounds accurate .  http://www.rwrv.org/directory.html

[Rdunbar123]

I am Antiochian WR. I was prepared to become a Catechumen at a Greek Orthodox parish when I heard about WR on this website. Before I became orthodox, I did ask myself, what if WR failed? The instant answer was go to another Orthodox jurisdiction. the first Divine Liturgy I went to was a Greek service so I only understood parts of it the rest was Greek to me. Then I find out that the languages the liturgies are done in are Archaic languages. Also like it or not I am western and do not want to learn a bunch of foreign language terms and go to festivals that are a mere curiosity to me. A lot of people on this website imply that there is no western culture. I am not _______(fill in the blank) and have no interest in being. I was cradle RC and would have happily converted anyway but feel at home in a place that honors my culture while having the correct theology that was handed down by the Apostles. My parish is mostly converts(RC converts are a minority) many of whom converted based on a study of church history asking the same questions  I did. I would guess there are many Greek, Russian, ect parishes that are mostly Orthodox because they were born that way and like many RCs don't know, follow, or understand the teaching of their church(see Biden, Pelosi, Kerry, ect). the long and short is I would be sad to see our WR go out of existence but I would still be Orthodox. OTOH, I have been to a WR parish in another state where I thought I was in a WAY BACK machine to a pre Vatican II service. I think the greatest need of the WR is consistency on practices. I do understand the concern of posters on this website. sorry for the rant, I just am sad to see the baby thrown out with the bathwater. If Bishop Jerome needs correction OK correct him. I just  hope that The ROCOR WR members did the same analysis as I did and  are Orthodox first and WR second. I may change jobs next year and will still attend the closest eastern parish if WR is not available.

[kijabeboy03]

So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

Right? Likewise, what of the ongoing dialogues with schismatic Western Orthodox to reconcile them to the Church? Such a sad situation.

So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

The issue was not WR, which ROCOR has had for decades without the people with/under Fr. Anthony Bondi, whose group made up the Vicariate, administered by Bishop Jerome, who was not a part of that group, but a preeminent liturgical scholar, afaik. The issue was, in general as I understand it, receiving people in quickly and giving them authority. Those who were priests in their former jurisdiction did not go through a rigorous process of several years to immerse themselves in what it means to be Orthodox and an Orthodox priest. The same issue has happened in other jurisdictions, including the Antiochian. When it comes to vetting and receiving converts who have been clergy before and may be once they're Orthodox, more care needs to be taken.

Agreed, more time could have been taken to make sure solid clergy candidates were really in place. It's hard being a priestless mission, but better than ordaining every breathing male. (Which, in all fairness, seems to be the practice in much of North American Orthodoxy :-/.)

I think the Monk dealio brought to light some problems with how the WRV does stuff.
Seems like a solid decision on the bishops' behalf.

All of the hierarchs - Metropolitan Hilarion aside - at this session are outright hostile to Western Orthodoxy, and even to any other Orthodoxy that isn't Great Russian. And that makes for a solid decision? smh

At least they still have the Old Rite!
rite?

;-)
I wonder what the Old Ritualists think of this, whether they feel safe or realize that they too may be asked to switch...

[Orthodox11]

I wonder what the Old Ritualists think of this, whether they feel safe or realize that they too may be asked to switch...

The only switch they would need to make is walking clockwise around the altar and using three fingers to cross themselves. The term "old rite" is a bit of a misnomer, they use the same Byzantine Rite as the rest of the Eastern Orthodox Church but with certain minor variations, many of which are no more noticeable than the variations you often find between parishes who use the 'regular' forms of the Byzantine rite.

I don't think they have anything to fear, unless there are similar administrative concerns.

[William]

So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

If you or someone else did you would be valuing rite above the apostolic faith.

[William]

I think the Monk dealio brought to light some problems with how the WRV does stuff.
Seems like a solid decision on the bishops' behalf.

All of the hierarchs - Metropolitan Hilarion aside - at this session are outright hostile to Western Orthodoxy, and even to any other Orthodoxy that isn't Great Russian. And that makes for a solid decision? smh

Got any proof of that?

[Ionnis]

I think the Monk dealio brought to light some problems with how the WRV does stuff.
Seems like a solid decision on the bishops' behalf.

All of the hierarchs - Metropolitan Hilarion aside - at this session are outright hostile to Western Orthodoxy, and even to any other Orthodoxy that isn't Great Russian. And that makes for a solid decision? smh

Got any proof of that?

I can't refer you to any document, but I can assure you that Archbishop Kyrill of San Francisco and Western America (ROCOR) is no defender of the Western Rite.  I don't know if I would characterize his attitude as hostile though. 

[ilyazhito]

Dismantling the Western Rite is drastic, but the Synodal document says that +Hilarion will still be the President of Western Rite parishes. Bishop Jerome must have ordained WR clergymen too hastily, and what the document says is that no more Western Rite clergy will be ordained until Metropolitan Hilarion can ensure that they teach Orthodox theology and that they live a proper lifestyle. The WR parishes will still function.

[NightOwl]

Maybe ROCOR parishes should offer more all-English services? That would probably remove some of the necessity for a WR in the first place.

[kijabeboy03]

I think the Monk dealio brought to light some problems with how the WRV does stuff.
Seems like a solid decision on the bishops' behalf.

All of the hierarchs - Metropolitan Hilarion aside - at this session are outright hostile to Western Orthodoxy, and even to any other Orthodoxy that isn't Great Russian. And that makes for a solid decision? smh

Got any proof of that?

I can't refer you to any document, but I can assure you that Archbishop Kyrill of San Francisco and Western America (ROCOR) is no defender of the Western Rite.  I don't know if I would characterize his attitude as hostile though.  

I've encountered Bishop Peter on numerous occasions and have friends who regularly see Archbishop Mark, and neither are friends (to say the least) of the Western Rites, or much of anything non-Russian for that matter. My impressions of Archbishop Gabriel are all from others, but point in the same direction...

[kijabeboy03]

I wonder what the Old Ritualists think of this, whether they feel safe or realize that they too may be asked to switch...

The only switch they would need to make is walking clockwise around the altar and using three fingers to cross themselves. The term "old rite" is a bit of a misnomer, they use the same Byzantine Rite as the rest of the Eastern Orthodox Church but with certain minor variations, many of which are no more noticeable than the variations you often find between parishes who use the 'regular' forms of the Byzantine rite.

I don't think they have anything to fear, unless there are similar administrative concerns.

Yes, simplistic, but there are significant (to them) differences - their use of church music (Znamenny chant), keeping of older (and fuller) liturgical practices, the sign of the cross, minor variations in the liturgical books, the direction of the processions, traditional iconography instead of the Western painting styles popular in many Russian Orthodox churches, et cetera.

I think given the mindset amongst many modern Byzantine Orthodox of 'our way or the highway' they may have cause to worry. A close friend of mine met a priest who thinks the Romans used to celebrate the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom before Vatican II - no wonder there's so much ridiculousness and misunderstanding in Byzantine Orthodoxy vis-a-vis  the Western Rites, reconciliation with the Oriental Orthodox, et cetera.

[kijabeboy03]

Maybe ROCOR parishes should offer more all-English services? That would probably remove some of the necessity for a WR in the first place.

It's not an issue of language, though there's certainly a need for that in North America and the UK if the ROCOR's parishes are to survive long-term...

[Mor Ephrem]

A close friend of mine met a priest who thinks the Romans used to celebrate the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom before Vatican II - no wonder there's so much ridiculousness and misunderstanding in Byzantine Orthodoxy vis-a-vis  the Western Rites, reconciliation with the Oriental Orthodox, et cetera.

LOL.  Silly Orthodoxes...

[Shanghaiski]

So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

Right? Likewise, what of the ongoing dialogues with schismatic Western Orthodox to reconcile them to the Church? Such a sad situation.

So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

The issue was not WR, which ROCOR has had for decades without the people with/under Fr. Anthony Bondi, whose group made up the Vicariate, administered by Bishop Jerome, who was not a part of that group, but a preeminent liturgical scholar, afaik. The issue was, in general as I understand it, receiving people in quickly and giving them authority. Those who were priests in their former jurisdiction did not go through a rigorous process of several years to immerse themselves in what it means to be Orthodox and an Orthodox priest. The same issue has happened in other jurisdictions, including the Antiochian. When it comes to vetting and receiving converts who have been clergy before and may be once they're Orthodox, more care needs to be taken.

Agreed, more time could have been taken to make sure solid clergy candidates were really in place. It's hard being a priestless mission, but better than ordaining every breathing male. (Which, in all fairness, seems to be the practice in much of North American Orthodoxy :-/.)

I think the Monk dealio brought to light some problems with how the WRV does stuff.
Seems like a solid decision on the bishops' behalf.

All of the hierarchs - Metropolitan Hilarion aside - at this session are outright hostile to Western Orthodoxy, and even to any other Orthodoxy that isn't Great Russian. And that makes for a solid decision? smh

At least they still have the Old Rite!
rite?

;-)
I wonder what the Old Ritualists think of this, whether they feel safe or realize that they too may be asked to switch...

I don't know all the hierarchs are hostile to WR. Bishop Peter was one of St. John Maximovitch's altar boys. Doesn't mean he follows him in everything, but there's I would think an understanding.

As for the Old Rite, AFAIK, it has been well-established in the Moscow Patriarchate from the time of the Holy Synod. In Russia, there has been a blessing for missionary priests to serve the Old Rite (using the old books) in Raskol'nik areas since the 19th century. I don't have information on how/if it happens there today, but I would imagine it might.

I think, with regard to the WR, the hiearchs are concerned that the clergy and people have not had time to be fully immersed in Orthodoxy and would not be hostile to the idea of a restored and expanded WR if they were not dealing with fresh converts converting in groups and not really integrating and understanding what it means to be Orthodox.

[Shanghaiski]

I wonder what the Old Ritualists think of this, whether they feel safe or realize that they too may be asked to switch...

The only switch they would need to make is walking clockwise around the altar and using three fingers to cross themselves. The term "old rite" is a bit of a misnomer, they use the same Byzantine Rite as the rest of the Eastern Orthodox Church but with certain minor variations, many of which are no more noticeable than the variations you often find between parishes who use the 'regular' forms of the Byzantine rite.

I don't think they have anything to fear, unless there are similar administrative concerns.

Hmmm. I have examined the Old Rite prayer book and horologion and there are some differences which, to a New Riter would be seemingly significant. There's a different ethos. Often when things look just a little different, they are more noticeable.

[Shanghaiski]

So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

If you or someone else did you would be valuing rite above the apostolic faith.

Not really. Switching jurisdiction is not leaving the Church.

[Shanghaiski]

Maybe ROCOR parishes should offer more all-English services? That would probably remove some of the necessity for a WR in the first place.

There are plenty of ROCOR parishes which use English either a lot or exclusively.

[ialmisry]

So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

If you or someone else did you would be valuing rite above the apostolic faith.

not when the Synod is degrading the Apostolic Faith.

[ialmisry]

Someone not too long ago posted numbers that were like 26 or 27 parishes per group. From what I read a number of them left the ROCOR WR, but I'm not sure how many, so I'd just leave it at 26/27. Now you figure 10 people per parish, that comes out to about 250 to 300 people impacted by this. Not counting the internet supporters.

How about their flesh and blood supporters, such as myself?

[ialmisry]

It would be really funny if it's a reaction to fr. Nathan Monk's recent defection. If that could bring it down it was already standing on shaky feet.

This is sick.

In Christ,
Andrew

I agree, it is sick.  

Are you referring to augustin's comment or to the idea of dismantling whole WRO because of one gay-endorsing defrocked priest? Because the latter would be as tragicomic as augustin said. Homophobia FTW.

it seems the defrocked's gay-endorsements aren't the only problem.  Just one of a host of related ones.

[Justin Kissel]

Someone not too long ago posted numbers that were like 26 or 27 parishes per group. From what I read a number of them left the ROCOR WR, but I'm not sure how many, so I'd just leave it at 26/27. Now you figure 10 people per parish, that comes out to about 250 to 300 people impacted by this. Not counting the internet supporters.

How about their flesh and blood supporters, such as myself?

You are an internet supporter, if you don't go to a WR parish. Unless you think by "internet supporters" I meant some artificial intelligence robot or something?

[ialmisry]

A close friend of mine met a priest who thinks the Romans used to celebrate the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom before Vatican II - no wonder there's so much ridiculousness and misunderstanding in Byzantine Orthodoxy vis-a-vis  the Western Rites, reconciliation with the Oriental Orthodox, et cetera.

LOL.  Silly Orthodoxes...

No. Silly overorthodoxes.

[ialmisry]

Someone not too long ago posted numbers that were like 26 or 27 parishes per group. From what I read a number of them left the ROCOR WR, but I'm not sure how many, so I'd just leave it at 26/27. Now you figure 10 people per parish, that comes out to about 250 to 300 people impacted by this. Not counting the internet supporters.

How about their flesh and blood supporters, such as myself?

You are an internet supporter, if you don't go to a WR parish. Unless you think by "internet supporters" I meant some artificial intelligence robot or something?

I've communed in several WRO parishes, and directed many to them.  That's not on the internet.

Did you think I was a different person in person?

[Shanghaiski]

Someone not too long ago posted numbers that were like 26 or 27 parishes per group. From what I read a number of them left the ROCOR WR, but I'm not sure how many, so I'd just leave it at 26/27. Now you figure 10 people per parish, that comes out to about 250 to 300 people impacted by this. Not counting the internet supporters.

How about their flesh and blood supporters, such as myself?

You are an internet supporter, if you don't go to a WR parish. Unless you think by "internet supporters" I meant some artificial intelligence robot or something?

I've communed in several WRO parishes, and directed many to them.  That's not on the internet.

Did you think I was a different person in person?

Uh-oh. I remember the last time somebody said Isa had multiple hypostases.

[Justin Kissel]

Someone not too long ago posted numbers that were like 26 or 27 parishes per group. From what I read a number of them left the ROCOR WR, but I'm not sure how many, so I'd just leave it at 26/27. Now you figure 10 people per parish, that comes out to about 250 to 300 people impacted by this. Not counting the internet supporters.

How about their flesh and blood supporters, such as myself?

You are an internet supporter, if you don't go to a WR parish. Unless you think by "internet supporters" I meant some artificial intelligence robot or something?

I've communed in several WRO parishes, and directed many to them.  That's not on the internet.

Did you think I was a different person in person?

Then you would seem to be a part time attender.

These conversations you have on the internet... they are with real people. You knew this, yes? This isn't the matrix. You were aware of this...?

[Shanghaiski]

Someone not too long ago posted numbers that were like 26 or 27 parishes per group. From what I read a number of them left the ROCOR WR, but I'm not sure how many, so I'd just leave it at 26/27. Now you figure 10 people per parish, that comes out to about 250 to 300 people impacted by this. Not counting the internet supporters.

How about their flesh and blood supporters, such as myself?

You are an internet supporter, if you don't go to a WR parish. Unless you think by "internet supporters" I meant some artificial intelligence robot or something?

I've communed in several WRO parishes, and directed many to them.  That's not on the internet.

Did you think I was a different person in person?

Then you would seem to be a part time attender.

These conversations you have on the internet... they are with real people. You knew this, yes? This isn't the matrix. You were aware of this...?

I took the green pill.

[Maria]

Someone not too long ago posted numbers that were like 26 or 27 parishes per group. From what I read a number of them left the ROCOR WR, but I'm not sure how many, so I'd just leave it at 26/27. Now you figure 10 people per parish, that comes out to about 250 to 300 people impacted by this. Not counting the internet supporters.

How about their flesh and blood supporters, such as myself?

You are an internet supporter, if you don't go to a WR parish. Unless you think by "internet supporters" I meant some artificial intelligence robot or something?

I've communed in several WRO parishes, and directed many to them.  That's not on the internet.

Did you think I was a different person in person?

Then you would seem to be a part time attender.

These conversations you have on the internet... they are with real people. You knew this, yes? This isn't the matrix. You were aware of this...?

I took the green pill.

I have read that the purple pill is Vallium, isn't it?
(Do read Delano by Dr. John Orozco.)
So, what is that green pill.

[Alpo]

So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

If you or someone else did you would be valuing rite above the apostolic faith.

not when the Synod is degrading the Apostolic Faith.

+10

If I was recently received in RWRV and ordained specifically as a Latin priest and then suddenly hear that my Synod exterminates the whole WRO and orders all to switch to Byzantine rite I would be downright shocked. ROCOR would be the last church I wanted to be associated with. I might just end up leaving whole Orthodoxy and all her Greco-Russian morons to be and try to live as a catholic Christian somewhere else.

That might sound a bit melodramatic but that's how people are sometimes.

[Shanghaiski]

Someone not too long ago posted numbers that were like 26 or 27 parishes per group. From what I read a number of them left the ROCOR WR, but I'm not sure how many, so I'd just leave it at 26/27. Now you figure 10 people per parish, that comes out to about 250 to 300 people impacted by this. Not counting the internet supporters.

How about their flesh and blood supporters, such as myself?

You are an internet supporter, if you don't go to a WR parish. Unless you think by "internet supporters" I meant some artificial intelligence robot or something?

I've communed in several WRO parishes, and directed many to them.  That's not on the internet.

Did you think I was a different person in person?

Then you would seem to be a part time attender.

These conversations you have on the internet... they are with real people. You knew this, yes? This isn't the matrix. You were aware of this...?

I took the green pill.

I have read that the purple pill is Vallium, isn't it?
(Do read Delano by Dr. John Orozco.)
So, what is that green pill.

A joke. The Matrix features a blue pill and a red pill. Take one, and life continues in happy ignorance. Take the other, and you find out what's really going on.

Or, in Airplane, the passengers are given a choice of chicken or fish, and Leslie Nielsen says, "I that's right. I had the lasagna."

[William]

So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

If you or someone else did you would be valuing rite above the apostolic faith.

Not really. Switching jurisdiction is not leaving the Church.

Alpo said "I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether."

[William]

So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

If you or someone else did you would be valuing rite above the apostolic faith.

not when the Synod is degrading the Apostolic Faith.

So it is okay to apostasize from the church now?

[William]

So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

If you or someone else did you would be valuing rite above the apostolic faith.

not when the Synod is degrading the Apostolic Faith.

+10

If I was recently received in RWRV and ordained specifically as a Latin priest and then suddenly hear that my Synod exterminates the whole WRO and orders all to switch to Byzantine rite I would be downright shocked. ROCOR would be the last church I wanted to be associated with. I might just end up leaving whole Orthodoxy and all her Greco-Russian morons to be and try to live as a catholic Christian somewhere else.

That might sound a bit melodramatic but that's how people are sometimes.

It's not melodramatic. It's idolatry.

[Shanghaiski]

So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

If you or someone else did you would be valuing rite above the apostolic faith.

Not really. Switching jurisdiction is not leaving the Church.

Alpo said "I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether."

Ah. Missed that, I did. Well, there's been a lot of hysterical commentary from folks not even close to the situation.

[Shanghaiski]

So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

If you or someone else did you would be valuing rite above the apostolic faith.

not when the Synod is degrading the Apostolic Faith.

So it is okay to apostasize from the church now?

No. And the Holy Synod did no such thing.

[NightOwl]

Okay, so besides the all-English services, exactly what distinguishes(ed) WR from the rest of ROCOR? Or WR from OCA? I know this is a giant can of worms but can't we just have one American Orthodox Church already? I wonder if I'll live to see the day...

[NightOwl]

Okay, so besides the all-English services, exactly what distinguishes(ed) WR from the rest of ROCOR? Or WR from OCA?

Just looked up the distinction myself... don't know why I wasn't sure of it before, but it's obviously a complicated situation. I guess a better question would be... what distinguishes the ROCOR WR from, say, the Antiochian WR? Shouldn't all WRs be roughly homogenous regardless of jurisdiction, considering their mission?

[Orthodox11]

what distinguishes the ROCOR WR from, say, the Antiochian WR?

From what I understand, the ROCOR WR attempts to restore Western rite services as they were before 1054, while the Antiochian WR makes use of current, post-schism ("the living tradition") Western traditions that are compatible with Orthodoxy, amending them where needed.

Shouldn't all WRs be roughly homogenous regardless of jurisdiction, considering their mission?

Given how tiny the WR movement appears to be, homogeneity would seem desirable.

[TheMathematician]

something ive heard, is that ROCOR is more RC, and Antiochian WR is more anglician, as mush as you can resemble something while still being Orthodox.