Author Topic: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR  (Read 26238 times)

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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2013, 07:16:43 PM »
So that just leaves the Antiochians and various schismatic/vagante groups.

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2013, 07:24:52 PM »
I have to admit that I am shocked by this. I am not familiar with the charges leveled against Bishop Jerome but even if he did something wrong why should the entire Western Rite of ROCOR be dismantled? Very sad.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2013, 07:49:56 PM »
It would be really funny if it's a reaction to fr. Nathan Monk's recent defection. If that could bring it down it was already standing on shaky feet.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2013, 07:54:15 PM »
It would be really funny if it's a reaction to fr. Nathan Monk's recent defection. If that could bring it down it was already standing on shaky feet.

I haven't kept up at all on what goes on in ROCOR, but during the Monk thread there was a link to a yahoo discussion, and in that discussion there seemed to be talk about recent problems in the WR with priests switching to the plain jane rite and whatnot.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2013, 07:56:32 PM »
I believe this only effects the Vicariate, which was mostly made up of recently brought in people, not the Benedictines who have been with ROCOR for decades.
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2013, 07:58:30 PM »
I believe this only effects the Vicariate, which was mostly made up of recently brought in people, not the Benedictines who have been with ROCOR for decades.

Does that mean it affects the majority of the WR or only a small portion of it? How do they compare in size?

Offline WPM

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2013, 08:01:59 PM »
What does this actually mean? ...

Offline TheMathematician

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2013, 08:02:58 PM »
I believe this only effects the Vicariate, which was mostly made up of recently brought in people, not the Benedictines who have been with ROCOR for decades.

I hope this is the case, but it looks(to me, at least), that it wont be the case, because of this

"8) To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite. 

"

I hope however, that I am wrong.

Offline WPM

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2013, 08:10:14 PM »
If they shut down the Western Rite then I guess I would have to adapt either Greek Orthodox or go to an OCA parish.

Offline Maria

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2013, 08:10:52 PM »
I believe this only effects the Vicariate, which was mostly made up of recently brought in people, not the Benedictines who have been with ROCOR for decades.

"8) To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite. 
"

This point #8 is unusual and confusing. Why ask the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite?

Will a hybrid largely Eastern, but partially Western Rite will be established?
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Offline Maria

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2013, 08:12:23 PM »
If they shut down the Western Rite then I guess I would have to adapt either Greek Orthodox or go to an OCA parish.

Wesley,
It might be best if you did go to a local OCA or Greek Orthodox parish.
In this way, you would be able to attend services more frequently.

However, this is off topic and should be the topic of a new thread.
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Offline TheMathematician

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2013, 08:13:10 PM »
I believe this only effects the Vicariate, which was mostly made up of recently brought in people, not the Benedictines who have been with ROCOR for decades.

"8) To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite. 
"

This point #8 is unusual and confusing. Why ask the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite?

Will a hybrid largely Eastern, but partially Western Rite will be established?

I'm guessing here, because, I dont know, but

Take Christminster for example. I *think* what it means is, they can keep their Benedictine spirituality, but, use the Eastern Rite services.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2013, 08:14:02 PM »
I believe this only effects the Vicariate, which was mostly made up of recently brought in people, not the Benedictines who have been with ROCOR for decades.

"8) To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite. 
"

This point #8 is unusual and confusing. Why ask the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite?

Will a hybrid largely Eastern, but partially Western Rite will be established?
reverse uniatism, except that today's G_C are free to be as Byzantine as they like; also ROCOR's WR AFAIK was full of people with a hobby for liturgical archeology.

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2013, 08:15:18 PM »
This point #8 is unusual and confusing. Why ask the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite?

Will a hybrid largely Eastern, but partially Western Rite will be established?

I assume it is deliberately vague so that they can work out the best solution for each community on a case by case basis. Perhaps it is to allow for a transitional period.

Offline WPM

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2013, 08:19:22 PM »
If they shut down the Western Rite then I guess I would have to adapt either Greek Orthodox or go to an OCA parish.

Wesley,
It might be best if you did go to a local OCA or Greek Orthodox parish.
In this way, you would be able to attend services more frequently.

However, this is off topic and should be the topic of a new thread.

Hey, I'll do the work.

Offline Shlomlokh

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2013, 09:01:06 PM »
It would be really funny if it's a reaction to fr. Nathan Monk's recent defection. If that could bring it down it was already standing on shaky feet.
This is sick.

In Christ,
Andrew
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2013, 09:02:36 PM »
Wow!  I just saw this in the news.  Craziness.  It does say it was called as an extraordinary session, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was fallout from the Nathan Monk scandal. Let us pray for the healing of all.  There is bound to be much pain in those in the western rite from this decision, although from what I have heard, the WR ROCOR did not appear to be well administered.
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2013, 09:16:54 PM »
Wow!  I just saw this in the news.  Craziness.  It does say it was called as an extraordinary session, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was fallout from the Nathan Monk scandal. Let us pray for the healing of all.  There is bound to be much pain in those in the western rite from this decision, although from what I have heard, the WR ROCOR did not appear to be well administered.
When I said this a few months ago I was attacked.  ???
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2013, 09:22:26 PM »
Wow!  I just saw this in the news.  Craziness.  It does say it was called as an extraordinary session, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was fallout from the Nathan Monk scandal. Let us pray for the healing of all.  There is bound to be much pain in those in the western rite from this decision, although from what I have heard, the WR ROCOR did not appear to be well administered.
When I said this a few months ago I was attacked.  ???
Said what?  That it was not administered well?
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Offline Nephi

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2013, 09:24:55 PM »
So does this affect the ROCOR WR outside North America?

Offline Alpo

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2013, 09:34:29 PM »
So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

Offline Father H

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2013, 09:39:30 PM »
It would be really funny if it's a reaction to fr. Nathan Monk's recent defection. If that could bring it down it was already standing on shaky feet.
This is sick.

In Christ,
Andrew

I agree, it is sick. 

Offline augustin717

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2013, 09:44:24 PM »
It would be really funny if it's a reaction to fr. Nathan Monk's recent defection. If that could bring it down it was already standing on shaky feet.
This is sick.

In Christ,
Andrew

I agree, it is sick. 
::)

Offline augustin717

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2013, 09:45:38 PM »

Offline Alpo

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2013, 09:47:17 PM »
It would be really funny if it's a reaction to fr. Nathan Monk's recent defection. If that could bring it down it was already standing on shaky feet.
This is sick.

In Christ,
Andrew

I agree, it is sick.  

Are you referring to augustin's comment or to the idea of dismantling whole WRO because of one gay-endorsing defrocked priest? Because the latter would be as tragicomic as augustin said. Homophobia FTW.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2013, 09:47:35 PM »
So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

The issue was not WR, which ROCOR has had for decades without the people with/under Fr. Anthony Bondi, whose group made up the Vicariate, administered by Bishop Jerome, who was not a part of that group, but a preeminent liturgical scholar, afaik. The issue was, in general as I understand it, receiving people in quickly and giving them authority. Those who were priests in their former jurisdiction did not go through a rigorous process of several years to immerse themselves in what it means to be Orthodox and an Orthodox priest. The same issue has happened in other jurisdictions, including the Antiochian. When it comes to vetting and receiving converts who have been clergy before and may be once they're Orthodox, more care needs to be taken.
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Offline Peacemaker

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2013, 09:49:05 PM »


Good call ROCOR, keep the faith strong, pure and unchanged!
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 09:56:46 PM by Peacemaker »

Offline Nephi

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2013, 09:50:31 PM »
ROCOR's WR AFAIK was full of people with a hobby for liturgical archeology.

Well, they're observing rites and customs aren't they? I didn't think you made value judgments beyond that.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2013, 09:51:37 PM »
I believe this only effects the Vicariate, which was mostly made up of recently brought in people, not the Benedictines who have been with ROCOR for decades.

I hope this is the case, but it looks(to me, at least), that it wont be the case, because of this

"8) To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite. 

"

I hope however, that I am wrong.
Let us pray you are.

What "particularities of the Western Rite" does one bring to the Eastern rite?  Doesn't make sense.

I wonder if the real WRO can be released to the Antiochians.  After all, it seems Bp. Antoun saw through the recently defrocked Monk.
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2013, 09:52:59 PM »
ROCOR's WR AFAIK was full of people with a hobby for liturgical archeology.

Well, they're observing rites and customs aren't they? I didn't think you made value judgments beyond that.
AFAIK unlike the Antiochians that generally followed what was customary in their non-orthodox W counterparts, ROCOR was full of people restoring rites fallen into disuse and oblivion more than a millennium ago.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2013, 09:53:52 PM »
My gosh, I think that Jack Chick tracts have more tact and empathy than some of the posts on this thread.  This whole situation is tragic and will damage the souls of many in the Church.  There is no humor in it, there should be no smug satisfaction in the downfall of the WR.

Lord, have mercy.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2013, 09:54:19 PM »
ROCOR's WR AFAIK was full of people with a hobby for liturgical archeology.

Well, they're observing rites and customs aren't they? I didn't think you made value judgments beyond that.
Augustine thinks Orthodoxy should be nominal, ethnic thing.  Nothing of the sort of ontological truth.

Has Christopher Mc something (his name escapes me) been around?  IIRC, he finally made the jump and went ROCOR. Wonder what will happen now.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2013, 09:55:56 PM »
So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

The issue was not WR, which ROCOR has had for decades without the people with/under Fr. Anthony Bondi, whose group made up the Vicariate, administered by Bishop Jerome, who was not a part of that group, but a preeminent liturgical scholar, afaik. The issue was, in general as I understand it, receiving people in quickly and giving them authority. Those who were priests in their former jurisdiction did not go through a rigorous process of several years to immerse themselves in what it means to be Orthodox and an Orthodox priest. The same issue has happened in other jurisdictions, including the Antiochian. When it comes to vetting and receiving converts who have been clergy before and may be once they're Orthodox, more care needs to be taken.

I disagree. I wouldn't have any problem whatsoever with what you wrote but I don't think they would force them to adopt Byzantine rite if the only problem was too swift schedule.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2013, 10:01:08 PM »
I believe this only effects the Vicariate, which was mostly made up of recently brought in people, not the Benedictines who have been with ROCOR for decades.

"8) To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite. 
"
opp

This point #8 is unusual and confusing. Why ask the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite?

Will a hybrid largely Eastern, but partially Western Rite will be established?
reverse uniatism, except that today's G_C are free to be as Byzantine as they like; also ROCOR's WR AFAIK was full of people with a hobby for liturgical archeology.

Agreed.

Offline Nephi

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2013, 10:01:29 PM »
I disagree. I wouldn't have any problem whatsoever with what you wrote but I don't think they would force them to adopt Byzantine rite if the only problem was too swift schedule.

Perhaps the liturgical and clerical "chaos" is to the extent that, short of re-training every priest as WR, it's easier to just have them become ER? Just a thought.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2013, 10:04:40 PM »
I believe this only effects the Vicariate, which was mostly made up of recently brought in people, not the Benedictines who have been with ROCOR for decades.

"8) To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite. 
"

This point #8 is unusual and confusing. Why ask the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite?

Will a hybrid largely Eastern, but partially Western Rite will be established?
reverse uniatism, except that today's G_C are free to be as Byzantine as they like; also ROCOR's WR AFAIK was full of people with a hobby for liturgical archeology.
Oh?  Who was the Adolf von Buccow of the WRO?
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Offline Maria

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2013, 10:07:40 PM »
http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2013/20130712_ensynodmeeting.html
Quote
1) To halt the ordination of new clergymen for parishes adhering to the Western Rite.  

2) To censure Bishop Jerome for his willfulness in administering the parishes adhering to the Western Rite, and in performing various ecclesial services not approved by the Synod of Bishops, and for criticizing his brethren in letters to clergy and laity.  

3) To deny recognition of the ordination of a group of individuals by Bishop Jerome during a single divine service, and to regularize them following a thorough examination of the candidates.

It seems that the three primary points as listed above in this Synodal declaration have to do with Bishop JEROME's recent group ordination of Western Rite clergy (points 1 & 3), the performance of non-approved ecclesial services in said Western Rite (point 2), and the critical and self-willed attitude of Bishop Jerome (point 2).
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 10:09:59 PM by Maria »
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #38 on: July 12, 2013, 10:08:02 PM »
So much of "Never, never, never let anyone to tell you in order to be Orthodox you must also be Eastern." I don't blame them if they leave Orthodoxy altogether. I would or switch for another jurisdiction.

The issue was not WR, which ROCOR has had for decades without the people with/under Fr. Anthony Bondi, whose group made up the Vicariate, administered by Bishop Jerome, who was not a part of that group, but a preeminent liturgical scholar, afaik. The issue was, in general as I understand it, receiving people in quickly and giving them authority. Those who were priests in their former jurisdiction did not go through a rigorous process of several years to immerse themselves in what it means to be Orthodox and an Orthodox priest. The same issue has happened in other jurisdictions, including the Antiochian. When it comes to vetting and receiving converts who have been clergy before and may be once they're Orthodox, more care needs to be taken.

I disagree. I wouldn't have any problem whatsoever with what you wrote but I don't think they would force them to adopt Byzantine rite if the only problem was too swift schedule.

Well, it's not clear to me they're making the Benedictines be ER, just the recent converts, which I don't oppose in theory because they need time for proper formation and if they were off on their own in the WR with little supervision and little community with people who have been Orthodox awhile, they wouldn't get this.
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Offline Maria

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2013, 10:08:23 PM »
Remember the recent reception by Bp. Jerome of some wanna be Catholics in Germany?

Could this have been the trigger?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 10:13:02 PM by Maria »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2013, 10:09:37 PM »
I believe this only effects the Vicariate, which was mostly made up of recently brought in people, not the Benedictines who have been with ROCOR for decades.

"8) To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite. 
"
opp

This point #8 is unusual and confusing. Why ask the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite?

Will a hybrid largely Eastern, but partially Western Rite will be established?
reverse uniatism, except that today's G_C are free to be as Byzantine as they like; also ROCOR's WR AFAIK was full of people with a hobby for liturgical archeology.

Agreed.
IOW, they are being treated as yesterda's G_C (for those of us who think the Vatican has changed).  Not really-at least ROCOR is being up front and honest about its impositions.
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Offline Father H

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #41 on: July 12, 2013, 10:10:04 PM »
It would be really funny if it's a reaction to fr. Nathan Monk's recent defection. If that could bring it down it was already standing on shaky feet.
This is sick.

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Andrew

I agree, it is sick. 
::)

 :P

Offline William

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2013, 10:59:17 PM »
I think the Monk dealio brought to light some problems with how the WRV does stuff.

Seems like a solid decision on the bishops' behalf.
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2013, 11:03:40 PM »
I think the Monk dealio brought to light some problems with how the WRV does stuff.

Seems like a solid decision on the bishops' behalf.

Not sure what you mean... surely people with graduate degrees from an invisible Orthodox seminary would know how to run things like clockwork.  :police:

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #44 on: July 12, 2013, 11:59:12 PM »
I think the Monk dealio brought to light some problems with how the WRV does stuff.

Seems like a solid decision on the bishops' behalf.

Not sure what you mean... surely people with graduate degrees from an invisible Orthodox seminary would know how to run things like clockwork.  :police:

Some invisible Orthodox seminaries are better than some visible ones sometimes.
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