Author Topic: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR  (Read 27054 times)

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #315 on: July 26, 2013, 01:59:15 PM »
When they stop being schematics and accept God is both fully God and fully man.

Mor,
I had no idea you were a schematic.

« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 02:00:02 PM by TheTrisagion »
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline Alpo

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #316 on: July 26, 2013, 02:10:03 PM »
^That seems like a fairly accurate description of Orthodox ecclesiastical politics.
The user should probably be sleeping by now.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #317 on: July 26, 2013, 02:13:36 PM »
When they stop being schematics and accept God is both fully God and fully man.

God is fully God.  God is not fully man or even part man, he's not man at all.  

Jesus Christ, the Only-Begotten Son and Immortal Word of God (as St Severus of Antioch wrote of him in his hymn which you sing at every Divine Liturgy), is fully God and fully man, having become incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, the Theotokos.  Thus we all teach, and thus we all believe, and it's all there for the world to see.  

But that wasn't even my point: as I made clear in subsequent posts, my comment was more directed to the idea that "Orthodoxy" is "not Western".  Your brand of Orthodoxy is Western through and through, but you (and people who think like you, of which there are many) don't see or care to admit that.  Orthodoxy ≠ Eastern.  That's all.

And next time, get your theology (and vocabulary) straight.    
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 02:14:01 PM by Mor Ephrem »
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #318 on: July 26, 2013, 02:18:14 PM »
Jesus Christ, the Only-Begotten Son and Immortal Word of God (as St Severus of Antioch wrote of him in his hymn which you sing at every Divine Liturgy)

We attribute the O monogenes to Emperor Justinian.  ;)

Offline Peacemaker

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #319 on: July 26, 2013, 02:18:25 PM »
When they stop being schematics and accept God is both fully God and fully man.

Mor,
I had no idea you were a schematic.



HAHAHA  :D  gotta love auto spell check


also, Jesus Christ is God, so how can Jesus be something that God isn't if they are both the same?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #320 on: July 26, 2013, 02:18:47 PM »
Jesus Christ, the Only-Begotten Son and Immortal Word of God (as St Severus of Antioch wrote of him in his hymn which you sing at every Divine Liturgy)

We attribute the O monogenes to Emperor Justinian.  ;)

You would.  ;)
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #321 on: July 26, 2013, 02:19:38 PM »
also, Jesus Christ is God, so how can Jesus be something that God isn't if they are both the same?

Oh, my friend, that's a different thread. 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #322 on: July 26, 2013, 02:21:23 PM »
When they stop being schematics and accept God is both fully God and fully man.

Mor,
I had no idea you were a schematic.


HAHAHA  :D  gotta love auto spell check


also, Jesus Christ is God, so how can Jesus be something that God isn't if they are both the same?
Jesus is a person of the Trinity.  God the Father is not a man, the Holy Spirit is not a man, so you can't say that God is a man.  Only one of the three persons of God is incarnate.
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #323 on: July 26, 2013, 02:29:23 PM »
Jesus is a person of the Trinity.  God the Father is not a man, the Holy Spirit is not a man, so you can't say that God is a man.  Only one of the three persons of God is incarnate.

I'm pretty sure I've seen a schematic for that.  ;)
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #324 on: July 26, 2013, 02:31:34 PM »
Jesus is a person of the Trinity.  God the Father is not a man, the Holy Spirit is not a man, so you can't say that God is a man.  Only one of the three persons of God is incarnate.

I'm pretty sure I've seen a schematic for that.  ;)
For you schematically minded individuals...  ;D

« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 02:32:17 PM by TheTrisagion »
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #325 on: July 26, 2013, 02:37:21 PM »
I tried to imagine how to make such a schematic that would incorporate "Man" along with "ises" and "is nots", in order to help explain that aspect better, and my head started moving along the lines of the tetrahedron I imagined.  My neck hurts. 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #326 on: July 26, 2013, 02:41:40 PM »
I tried to imagine how to make such a schematic that would incorporate "Man" along with "ises" and "is nots", in order to help explain that aspect better, and my head started moving along the lines of the tetrahedron I imagined.  My neck hurts. 
I think you need a cantellated tesseract for that.

Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #327 on: July 26, 2013, 02:43:16 PM »
My mind is blown.  Thank you. 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #328 on: July 26, 2013, 02:52:14 PM »
My mind is blown.  Thank you. 
But it should be so obvious now.  I think that it brings so much clarity to the subject.  :laugh:
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline Peacemaker

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #329 on: July 26, 2013, 04:26:19 PM »
Yes this makes since, I should have said Jesus instead of God. Still, my point being, I would never join the non chalcedonians because they are not in communion with the one and only true Church because of their heretical beliefs, non chalcedonians are not orthodox, just as Roman Catholics aren't Orthodox, how can you be if you are not in the Church, the Church is not divided, there are only those who are divided from the Church. With that said, not liking the western rite is one thing, but being a non Orthodox, thanks for the offer but not in this life time.  #Rant

At any rate, back on topic

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #330 on: July 26, 2013, 04:39:39 PM »
Still, my point being, I would never join the non chalcedonians because they are not in communion with the one and only true Church because of their heretical beliefs, non chalcedonians are not orthodox, just as Roman Catholics aren't Orthodox, how can you be if you are not in the Church, the Church is not divided, there are only those who are divided from the Church.

Yes, there are only those who are divided from the Church, like the Chalcedonians, who left the communion of the one and only true Church (which has remained in God's peace and unity ever since) in order to wed themselves to earthly power, imperial and papal.  Since their schism in the fifth century, the Chalcedonians have divided repeatedly, first into so-called Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics, and then divided further: Old Ritualists, Old Calendarists, "the Living Church", etc. on the EO side and Protestantism, Pentecostalism, Jehovah's Witnesses/Mormons, SSPX, SSPV, etc. on the RC side.  Schism is the mother of schism, and yours is a great-great-great grandma by now.  Hers is a "beautiful" family.  #givemeabreak   

Really, you'll need to work on your material.  I don't mind if you don't agree with us, but you should have better reasons.  Not one word of what I described as our faith ought to be disagreeable to you--in fact, I corrected your own statements.  But if you're going to curse the truth because "the other guys" believe it, you've got more serious issues. 

"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #331 on: July 26, 2013, 05:02:00 PM »
But how boring the world would be if we did not have ideologues to tell us how wrong everyone else is!  ;)
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline Peacemaker

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #332 on: July 26, 2013, 05:20:06 PM »
Still, my point being, I would never join the non chalcedonians because they are not in communion with the one and only true Church because of their heretical beliefs, non chalcedonians are not orthodox, just as Roman Catholics aren't Orthodox, how can you be if you are not in the Church, the Church is not divided, there are only those who are divided from the Church.

Yes, there are only those who are divided from the Church, like the Chalcedonians, who left the communion of the one and only true Church (which has remained in God's peace and unity ever since) in order to wed themselves to earthly power, imperial and papal.  Since their schism in the fifth century, the Chalcedonians have divided repeatedly, first into so-called Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics, and then divided further: Old Ritualists, Old Calendarists, "the Living Church", etc. on the EO side and Protestantism, Pentecostalism, Jehovah's Witnesses/Mormons, SSPX, SSPV, etc. on the RC side.  Schism is the mother of schism, and yours is a great-great-great grandma by now.  Hers is a "beautiful" family.  #givemeabreak   

Really, you'll need to work on your material.  I don't mind if you don't agree with us, but you should have better reasons.  Not one word of what I described as our faith ought to be disagreeable to you--in fact, I corrected your own statements.  But if you're going to curse the truth because "the other guys" believe it, you've got more serious issues. 



The E. Councels were over seen by the Holy Spirit, how can you go against the Holy Spirit? That's my reason.

Offline mike

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #333 on: July 26, 2013, 05:26:46 PM »
Yawn. Go to Private Fora and play with yourselves there.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #334 on: July 26, 2013, 05:49:55 PM »
Yawn. Go to Private Fora and play with yourselves there.

English not your first language, or are you speaking from personal expertise?  :P
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Offline mike

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #335 on: July 26, 2013, 05:51:25 PM »
Yawn. Go to Private Fora and play with yourselves there.

English not your first language, or are you speaking from personal expertise?  :P


Pun intended. Do you really need to troll some hyperdox newbie? It's not even funny and he does not realise you are trolling him.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 05:56:40 PM by Michał Kalina »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #336 on: July 26, 2013, 05:56:17 PM »
I don't need to, no.  You don't need to post half the stuff you post either.  But "need" hasn't been a meaningful category in internet discussion forum posting ever, so what's the problem?  "It's my constitutional right!"       

And I wasn't being funny. 
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #337 on: July 26, 2013, 06:26:49 PM »
Let's get back on topic, and if people want to further debate Chalcedon and all its schematics, that would best take place in the private forum.   :)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 11:26:33 PM by Salpy »

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #338 on: July 26, 2013, 06:40:52 PM »

Sorry, I didn't read the mods comment. I agree.

« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 06:44:19 PM by podkarpatska »

Offline Father H

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #339 on: July 31, 2013, 06:10:44 PM »
Still, my point being, I would never join the non chalcedonians because they are not in communion with the one and only true Church because of their heretical beliefs, non chalcedonians are not orthodox, just as Roman Catholics aren't Orthodox, how can you be if you are not in the Church, the Church is not divided, there are only those who are divided from the Church.

Yes, there are only those who are divided from the Church, like the Chalcedonians, who left the communion of the one and only true Church (which has remained in God's peace and unity ever since) in order to wed themselves to earthly power, imperial and papal.  Since their schism in the fifth century, the Chalcedonians have divided repeatedly, first into so-called Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics, and then divided further: Old Ritualists, Old Calendarists, "the Living Church", etc. on the EO side and Protestantism, Pentecostalism, Jehovah's Witnesses/Mormons, SSPX, SSPV, etc. on the RC side.  Schism is the mother of schism, and yours is a great-great-great grandma by now.  Hers is a "beautiful" family.  #givemeabreak    

Really, you'll need to work on your material.  I don't mind if you don't agree with us, but you should have better reasons.  Not one word of what I described as our faith ought to be disagreeable to you--in fact, I corrected your own statements.  But if you're going to curse the truth because "the other guys" believe it, you've got more serious issues.  



The E. Councels were over seen by the Holy Spirit, how can you go against the Holy Spirit? That's my reason.

Peacemaker, not that you're wrong about everything, but "Peacemaker" as a screen name could be one of the worst misnomers ever.  So ROCOR's parishes of various rites all agree with the Ecumenical Councils.  You agree with this, yes?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 06:13:59 PM by Father H »

Offline Agabus

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #340 on: July 31, 2013, 08:34:10 PM »
Still, my point being, I would never join the non chalcedonians because they are not in communion with the one and only true Church because of their heretical beliefs, non chalcedonians are not orthodox, just as Roman Catholics aren't Orthodox, how can you be if you are not in the Church, the Church is not divided, there are only those who are divided from the Church.

Yes, there are only those who are divided from the Church, like the Chalcedonians, who left the communion of the one and only true Church (which has remained in God's peace and unity ever since) in order to wed themselves to earthly power, imperial and papal.  Since their schism in the fifth century, the Chalcedonians have divided repeatedly, first into so-called Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics, and then divided further: Old Ritualists, Old Calendarists, "the Living Church", etc. on the EO side and Protestantism, Pentecostalism, Jehovah's Witnesses/Mormons, SSPX, SSPV, etc. on the RC side.  Schism is the mother of schism, and yours is a great-great-great grandma by now.  Hers is a "beautiful" family.  #givemeabreak    

Really, you'll need to work on your material.  I don't mind if you don't agree with us, but you should have better reasons.  Not one word of what I described as our faith ought to be disagreeable to you--in fact, I corrected your own statements.  But if you're going to curse the truth because "the other guys" believe it, you've got more serious issues.  



The E. Councels were over seen by the Holy Spirit, how can you go against the Holy Spirit? That's my reason.

Peacemaker, not that you're wrong about everything, but "Peacemaker" as a screen name could be one of the worst misnomers ever.
Considering that the Peacemaker was one of the most popular guns in history, perhaps it is quite apt.
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Offline Peacemaker

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #341 on: August 01, 2013, 01:07:20 AM »
Still, my point being, I would never join the non chalcedonians because they are not in communion with the one and only true Church because of their heretical beliefs, non chalcedonians are not orthodox, just as Roman Catholics aren't Orthodox, how can you be if you are not in the Church, the Church is not divided, there are only those who are divided from the Church.

Yes, there are only those who are divided from the Church, like the Chalcedonians, who left the communion of the one and only true Church (which has remained in God's peace and unity ever since) in order to wed themselves to earthly power, imperial and papal.  Since their schism in the fifth century, the Chalcedonians have divided repeatedly, first into so-called Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics, and then divided further: Old Ritualists, Old Calendarists, "the Living Church", etc. on the EO side and Protestantism, Pentecostalism, Jehovah's Witnesses/Mormons, SSPX, SSPV, etc. on the RC side.  Schism is the mother of schism, and yours is a great-great-great grandma by now.  Hers is a "beautiful" family.  #givemeabreak    

Really, you'll need to work on your material.  I don't mind if you don't agree with us, but you should have better reasons.  Not one word of what I described as our faith ought to be disagreeable to you--in fact, I corrected your own statements.  But if you're going to curse the truth because "the other guys" believe it, you've got more serious issues.  



The E. Councels were over seen by the Holy Spirit, how can you go against the Holy Spirit? That's my reason.

Peacemaker, not that you're wrong about everything, but "Peacemaker" as a screen name could be one of the worst misnomers ever.  So ROCOR's parishes of various rites all agree with the Ecumenical Councils.  You agree with this, yes?

Let's get back on topic
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 01:07:39 AM by Peacemaker »

Offline Didymus

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #342 on: August 04, 2013, 09:53:05 AM »
This is very unfortunate, especially for the WR. That said, having met Met. Hilarion, I believe HE would only do what HE believes would be right in the eyes of God.

Yet considering all the troubles which various Orthodox jurisdictions have faced while missioning in the West and receiving converts, either in large number or individually, it seems to me as though novices to the Faith are all too often promoted too quickly. While I believe that the orders of those validly ordained with apostolic succession should be recognised when they convert, I believe they should be required to attend some extra form of spiritual retreat before they are received or perhaps made to serve as an assistant priest for a couple of years until the receiving Church can have some greater form of reassurance that the new convert will remain faithful.
Would not a valid option be, if they ordained them anyway, is to place them under an experienced priest for several years before sending them out on their own.  This could effectively double the priesthood while at the same time allowing for sufficient training.  I always thought it would be better for a new priest to work with an experienced one for a number of years anyway.

Agreed. Despite the need for more priests, I think it would be best if two priests (one experienced, one in training) served each major parish and that only experienced priests serve small/mission parishes to ensure their safety and stability.
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Offline Aristobolus

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #343 on: August 05, 2013, 03:20:14 AM »
If by "experienced" you mean retired, but willing to assist with a small parish, that is a great situation.  But any experienced Priests with children or nearing retirement cannot subsist on what most small missions pay them. 

Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #344 on: August 05, 2013, 01:46:05 PM »
This is very unfortunate, especially for the WR. That said, having met Met. Hilarion, I believe HE would only do what HE believes would be right in the eyes of God.

Yet considering all the troubles which various Orthodox jurisdictions have faced while missioning in the West and receiving converts, either in large number or individually, it seems to me as though novices to the Faith are all too often promoted too quickly. While I believe that the orders of those validly ordained with apostolic succession should be recognised when they convert, I believe they should be required to attend some extra form of spiritual retreat before they are received or perhaps made to serve as an assistant priest for a couple of years until the receiving Church can have some greater form of reassurance that the new convert will remain faithful.
Would not a valid option be, if they ordained them anyway, is to place them under an experienced priest for several years before sending them out on their own.  This could effectively double the priesthood while at the same time allowing for sufficient training.  I always thought it would be better for a new priest to work with an experienced one for a number of years anyway.

Agreed. Despite the need for more priests, I think it would be best if two priests (one experienced, one in training) served each major parish and that only experienced priests serve small/mission parishes to ensure their safety and stability.
Either that, or have one priest and one deacon. If the deacon could be ordained a priest eventually, the priest would train him on the job. If not, the permanent deacon would then be the priest's assistant. With a priest, deacon, and subdeacon available at each parish, there would be fewer problems of succession, but even the readers and subdeacons would have to be vetted, to ensure that they would be able to succeed the priest and deacon if and when needed.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #345 on: August 05, 2013, 01:51:40 PM »
This is very unfortunate, especially for the WR. That said, having met Met. Hilarion, I believe HE would only do what HE believes would be right in the eyes of God.

Yet considering all the troubles which various Orthodox jurisdictions have faced while missioning in the West and receiving converts, either in large number or individually, it seems to me as though novices to the Faith are all too often promoted too quickly. While I believe that the orders of those validly ordained with apostolic succession should be recognised when they convert, I believe they should be required to attend some extra form of spiritual retreat before they are received or perhaps made to serve as an assistant priest for a couple of years until the receiving Church can have some greater form of reassurance that the new convert will remain faithful.
Would not a valid option be, if they ordained them anyway, is to place them under an experienced priest for several years before sending them out on their own.  This could effectively double the priesthood while at the same time allowing for sufficient training.  I always thought it would be better for a new priest to work with an experienced one for a number of years anyway.

Agreed. Despite the need for more priests, I think it would be best if two priests (one experienced, one in training) served each major parish and that only experienced priests serve small/mission parishes to ensure their safety and stability.
Either that, or have one priest and one deacon. If the deacon could be ordained a priest eventually, the priest would train him on the job. If not, the permanent deacon would then be the priest's assistant. With a priest, deacon, and subdeacon available at each parish, there would be fewer problems of succession, but even the readers and subdeacons would have to be vetted, to ensure that they would be able to succeed the priest and deacon if and when needed.

You have to trust your bishop' s discernment. I know plenty of experienced priests and deacons who shouldn't be within a mile of a neophyte!

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR
« Reply #346 on: August 05, 2013, 03:15:42 PM »
^^ +1