OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 24, 2014, 12:42:36 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR  (Read 19641 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
The young fogey
Archon
********
Online Online

Posts: 2,520


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #270 on: July 22, 2013, 10:33:55 AM »

Quote
ditto Transdniester; same leader from Soviet times


Uh, no..... the president of Pridnestrovie from the end of the USSR, Igor Smirnov (no joke!), was, like Lukashenko, the head of an industrial concern who used that position to wriggle into politics as things were falling apart. Their current president, Yevgeny Shevchuk (45 years old), actually beat Smirnov for the position in a 2011 election that confused everyone by being pretty free and fair.... They still have those nifty hammers and sickles on their money, though.

Thanks for the 411.
Logged

Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Faith: BZZT
Posts: 29,237



« Reply #271 on: July 22, 2013, 10:34:11 AM »

^^ Second boringest book I've read was The history of the church in Carpathian Rus'  Cool
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Faith: BZZT
Posts: 29,237



« Reply #272 on: July 22, 2013, 10:34:53 AM »

Allow me to now tell you the history of the Latvian Orthodox Church in the 16th century...



That nasty, unfunny 'Seinfeld' show: Jews telling put-down jokes about Slavs. Yawn.

Dude. You've been on that for like 15 years now. Seinfeld makes fun of everything, including itself. That's its schtick. Get over it.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 10:35:18 AM by Asteriktos » Logged
The young fogey
Archon
********
Online Online

Posts: 2,520


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #273 on: July 22, 2013, 10:36:34 AM »

Allow me to now tell you the history of the Latvian Orthodox Church in the 16th century...



That nasty, unfunny 'Seinfeld' show: Jews telling put-down jokes about Slavs. Yawn.

Dude. You've been on that for like 15 years now. Seinfeld makes fun of everything, including itself. That's its schtick. Get over it.

Turned my back on consciously following pop culture in 1998. Gone backwards since, to about 50 years ago.
Logged

TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 6,950



« Reply #274 on: July 22, 2013, 10:38:19 AM »

Allow me to now tell you the history of the Latvian Orthodox Church in the 16th century...



That nasty, unfunny 'Seinfeld' show: Jews telling put-down jokes about Slavs. Yawn.
1. Seinfeld = greatest show ever
2. Latvians are not Slavs

Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
The young fogey
Archon
********
Online Online

Posts: 2,520


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #275 on: July 22, 2013, 10:44:36 AM »

2. Latvians are not Slavs

I know, but in TV land, such as when Jews are putting down Eastern Europeans (they invented Polack jokes), all Eastern Europeans are played as Russians, so you hear Romanian characters with Russian accents, and the church in that episode is obviously Russian Orthodox (I think it's in Brooklyn).

Latvians aren't Orthodox either. Half are Catholic; half are Lutheran.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 10:52:12 AM by The young fogey » Logged

augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,618


Teaching on the mountain


« Reply #276 on: July 22, 2013, 10:48:01 AM »

Allow me to now tell you the history of the Latvian Orthodox Church in the 16th century...



That nasty, unfunny 'Seinfeld' show: Jews telling put-down jokes about Slavs. Yawn.

Dude. You've been on that for like 15 years now. Seinfeld makes fun of everything, including itself. That's its schtick. Get over it.
In some of my interwebs haunts YF is sort of an inside joke.
Logged
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 6,950



« Reply #277 on: July 22, 2013, 10:50:08 AM »

Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,023



« Reply #278 on: July 22, 2013, 11:13:02 AM »

the legitimate Orthodox church


Orthodoxy not make one legitimate.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,023



« Reply #279 on: July 22, 2013, 11:15:16 AM »

Latvians aren't Orthodox either. Half are Catholic; half are Lutheran.

Just stay away from the squirrels.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,131


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #280 on: July 22, 2013, 11:47:38 AM »

I haven't read through the whole thread, but is there still any hope for the western rite in ROCOR?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
The young fogey
Archon
********
Online Online

Posts: 2,520


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #281 on: July 22, 2013, 11:50:04 AM »

I haven't read through the whole thread, but is there still any hope for the western rite in ROCOR?

Yes. The official word from them is although they've ended their Western Rite Vicariate (me: because of its disciplinary problems), the Western Rite communities (parishes and monasteries) still exist as stavropegial (directly under the metropolitan first hierarch). So we'll see.
Logged

Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,131


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #282 on: July 22, 2013, 11:55:18 AM »

I haven't read through the whole thread, but is there still any hope for the western rite in ROCOR?

Yes. The official word from them is although they've ended their Western Rite Vicariate (me: because of its disciplinary problems), the Western Rite communities (parishes and monasteries) still exist as stavropegial (directly under the metropolitan first hierarch). So we'll see.
Ok, good. Well, I'm definitely going to keep them in my prayers. Not that any one cares about the opinoins of this silly Latin heretic  Cheesy, but I think the Western Rite is a wonderful thing.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 11:55:33 AM by Papist » Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #283 on: July 22, 2013, 12:25:12 PM »

2. Latvians are not Slavs

I know, but in TV land, such as when Jews are putting down Eastern Europeans (they invented Polack jokes), all Eastern Europeans are played as Russians, so you hear Romanian characters with Russian accents, and the church in that episode is obviously Russian Orthodox (I think it's in Brooklyn).
LOL.  My ex-wife, when we first met in Romania, asked me what I thought Romanian sounded like. I answered her truthfully (always a bad idea, as it turned out), that it sounded like Italian with a Russian accent.
Latvians aren't Orthodox either. Half are Catholic; half are Lutheran.
Quote
Orthodoxy was planted in Latvia in the 11th century, when it became a mission field of the diocese of Polotsk. The country remained mostly pagan until it was conquered in the 13th century by German crusaders - the Teutonic Order, who were elective of Catholicism. Orthodox presence continued in the form of churches for Russian merchants and others, but these were small communities among a majority of Catholics before 1525 and Lutherans afterward. After Latvia was annexed to the Russian Empire in the 18th century (most of Latvia, a result of the Great Northern War by the Treaty of Nystad, the Latgale region after the First Partition of Poland in 1772), Russian and Orthodox presence increased substantially, but the Orthodox Church remained foreign to the Latvians. The Latvian Orthodox Church as a body including ethnic Latvians as well as Russians dates back to the 1840s, when native Latvians (who were at that time subjects of the Russian Empire) petitioned the Czar to be allowed to conduct services in their native tongue. The Orthodox Church enjoyed some success in its missions among the Latvians due to its use of the Latvian language. In the 1880s Orthodox Nativity Cathedral was built in Riga. However, it was always regarded suspiciously by the Lutheran Germanic nobles of the area; conversely the predominantly German character of the Lutheran Church in Latvia was a factor in the movement of some 40,000 Latvians from the Lutheran to the Orthodox Church......During World War I, the property of the Orthodox Church in Latvia was confiscated by occupying German forces, and in the early years of independent Latvia the government was not eager to recognize the church, suspecting it of being a hotbed of czarism. In this difficult — one might say desperate — situation, Jānis (Pommers), a native Latvian, was appointed Archbishop of Riga in 1921. He succeeded in winning recognition from the government by 1926 and, against much opposition from leftists and others, in stabilizing the situation of the church. While opposing the Bolsheviks, he maintained the Latvian Orthodox Church within the Moscow Patriarchate. In 1934, he was brutally assassinated by Soviet agents...In 2001 a council of the Latvian Orthodox Church canonised Archbishop Jānis in recognition of his heroic martyrdom in 1934. In 2006 the Order of the holy martyr Jānis was instituted to reward those who have served the Orthodox Church and its aims...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_Orthodox_Church

Btw, like Finns, Estonians and Lithuanians, the Latvians got their literary cultural under the Czars.  The Vatican's Poles and the Lutheran Baltic Germans and Swedes (although Orthodox Christianity came first among the Finns, Estonians and Lithuanians) made sure it did not happen before then, although they ruled them 2-3x as long as the Czar.

The Empress Catherine I of Russia was born a Lithuanian peasant baptized by the Vatican, raised an orphan by a Lutheran Pastor as foster father, Johann Ernst Glück, the first translator of the Bible into Latvian, in this house on the Latvian-Estonian border (near Russia)

Unfortunately the Russians had to pay for their Imperialism and Nationalism. To get an idea, have you ever heard about "Latvian Orthodox Church"? No it disappeared! A few who were left have approached the Estonain bishop Stefanos so that he would be in charge of the "ruins" of the Latvian Orthodox Church but Stefanos refused becasue he didn't want more troubles with the Russians.

LOL.  No, it hasn't disappeared:
Quote
Popular culture
The Church plays a major role in "The Conversion" episode of the popular television sitcom Seinfeld, in which the character George Costanza converts to Latvian Orthodoxy in order to have his ex-girlfriend's Latvian Orthodox parents allow a relationship between the two. However, she leaves on a trip to Latvia after he converts. The writer of the episode, Bruce Kirschbaum, revealed later that he was unaware that the religion actually existed while writing the episode. His original intention was to have a fictitious religion.[2] Indeed, while appearing Eastern Orthodox to the casual observer, much of the attire and ritual is actually more western in style. Furthermore, the word "kavorka," which in the episode was used to describe Kramer's attractiveness as "the lure of the animal," is not a real Latvian word. Nevertheless, Kirschbaum received many letters from the church thanking him for bringing attention to the religion, despite his fear upon learning that it was a real religion that its practitioners would resent the episode.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_Orthodox_Church

Btw, the primate of Lativia before the Nazi invasion ended up as Bp. John of Chicago (OCA), of blessed memory.  His adopted son, the now retired priest Fr. Sergei Glarklavs still has his staff as bishop of Riga and All Lativia.  His son, Bp John's grandson, is Fr. Alexander, the OCA's chancellor.
I know European history, not only by studying it at the U of C, but those who lived it: I know the family of the OCA chancellor Fr. Alexander Glarklavs, whose grandfather Archb. John was born in Latvia (again, LONG before 1940) and was Archbishop of Chicago. Before that, he was primate of Riga and All Latvia, and fled with the Tikhvin icon when the Soviets came.  His father, Fr. Sergei, Arb. John's adopted son, married me and still speaks fluent Latvian.  The point is that as ESTONIAN, Patriarch Alexei and Archb. Korneli (not only ESTONIAN, but also jailed by the Soviets for religious activity) also knows history.  Having lived it.  The EP hasn't noticed that the Sultan (note: not the emperor) has been removed from the scene.
Btw, I also knew Lutheran Latvians, who fled the Soviet takeover.  I just ran into a number of them last year, when our old Lutheran parish was being closed (my family always passed the Latvian Consulate, now the Latvian Cultural Center, on the way to church).

Remember: it's the hats!
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 12:36:53 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #284 on: July 22, 2013, 12:37:45 PM »

Quote
ditto Transdniester; same leader from Soviet times


Uh, no..... the president of Pridnestrovie from the end of the USSR, Igor Smirnov (no joke!), was, like Lukashenko, the head of an industrial concern who used that position to wriggle into politics as things were falling apart. Their current president, Yevgeny Shevchuk (45 years old), actually beat Smirnov for the position in a 2011 election that confused everyone by being pretty free and fair.... They still have those nifty hammers and sickles on their money, though.
and here I thought your only area of expertise was the Middle East! Cheesy
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
The young fogey
Archon
********
Online Online

Posts: 2,520


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #285 on: July 22, 2013, 12:44:06 PM »

Remember: it's the hats!

To be fair, it was just a show, going for laughs, and the sets, accents, and costumes, a mix of the familiar Catholic and the exotic Eastern, are like a half-remembered visit to an immigrant Orthodox church in the US.
Logged

Samn!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 301


« Reply #286 on: July 22, 2013, 01:01:01 PM »

and here I thought your only area of expertise was the Middle East! Cheesy

I've spent some months in Moldova at various times....
Logged
podkarpatska
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,017


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #287 on: July 22, 2013, 01:11:10 PM »

A sad thought, when in 2413, Ialmisry the VII writes "A brief History of the Orthodox at the turn of the 21st Century" (map annotated edition) it will be as full of intrigue, confusion and scheming as the current tomes on the 16th century. Let's pray that there will folks interested in the subject! ( I'm not commenting about Isa, I'm just making an observation of how little humans change in their behavior.)
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 01:12:49 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 6,950



« Reply #288 on: July 22, 2013, 01:39:13 PM »

A sad thought, when in 2413, Ialmisry the VII writes "A brief History of the Orthodox at the turn of the 21st Century" (map annotated edition) it will be as full of intrigue, confusion and scheming as the current tomes on the 16th century. Let's pray that there will folks interested in the subject! ( I'm not commenting about Isa, I'm just making an observation of how little humans change in their behavior.)
TheTrisagion the VII will still pronounce it boring.  Grin
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,023



« Reply #289 on: July 22, 2013, 01:55:34 PM »

I haven't read through the whole thread, but is there still any hope for the western rite in ROCOR?

I have trouble interpreting it such that it doesn't mean that some WR parishes will be required to give up WR ... but I'll wait and see.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Christopher McAvoy
Never forget the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate & all persecuted christians!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodóxis, atque cathólice et apostólice fídei
Jurisdiction: Latin Catholic from the 12th c.
Posts: 440



WWW
« Reply #290 on: July 22, 2013, 06:28:59 PM »

I haven't read through the whole thread, but is there still any hope for the western rite in ROCOR?

Yes. The official word from them is although they've ended their Western Rite Vicariate (me: because of its disciplinary problems), the Western Rite communities (parishes and monasteries) still exist as stavropegial (directly under the metropolitan first hierarch). So we'll see.
Ok, good. Well, I'm definitely going to keep them in my prayers. Not that any one cares about the opinoins of this silly Latin heretic  Cheesy, but I think the Western Rite is a wonderful thing.

Mr. Papist,

I for one thank you for your prayers. We need them. Through my exploration of the post-schism Latin rite I recently purchased my first "Antiphonale Romano-Seraphicum Pro Horus Diurnis" from 1928. This book includes the historic divine office chants and propers for most of the franciscans saints, IE. Bonaventure of Bagnoregio, Anthony of Padua, Claire of Assisi. I have no intention of using them in an Orthodox Church but I am impressed with them, for the examples of those saints gave a stronger foundation to the Roman Catholic Faith of New Mexico. Most of your patrimony is our patrimony. Grin   Perhaps someday New Mexico will have another Bishop Jean-Baptiste Lamy.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 06:33:37 PM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #291 on: July 22, 2013, 06:39:01 PM »

So the western Ukraine's more Russian Orthodox than I thought?

No, less in submission to the Vatican than you thought.  I really didn't get into the Orthodox numbers, Russian or otherwise.
OK, fine. Could be due to the Soviets moving Great Russians there, as happened in the Baltics, in some cases a huge minority there (issue: Russians born there, now not welcome; not fair!).
No, as, as the Polish Second Republic found out, the place had plenty of Orthodox, despite Poland's best efforts to get rid of them (the Republic's last official act was closing the last Orthodox Church left in Lutsk and converting it to a cathedral of the Vatican's Latin ordinary).  The reason why, with the powers the Vatican vested in it by the Concordat, restricted Met. Sheptytskyi to the predecessor of the three oblasts, with the Vatican's blessings-it slapped the Metropolitan's hand when he tried to go exert jurisdiction West, North, East or South of the territory of the old Crownland of Galicia.  The Rivne and Volyn oblasts remained Orthodox, despite the Poles best efforts.  The Chernivtsi oblast had been a stronghold of Ruthenian/Ukrainian Orthodoxy since the days of Austria Hungary: rule by Romania (which had a king in communion with the Vatican most of the interwar period, and his Constitution and Concordat with the Vatican favored the "Church in Union with Rome, Greek Catholic") did not change that.  In the Zakarpattia oblast, the Orthodox, having survived the treason trials from 1882 and concentration camps of Tallerhof of the Habsburgs, had formed the dominant constituent core of the Orthodox Church of Czechoslovakia, bringing the WRO core of the primate St. Bp. Gorazd into the Eastern Rite (unfortunately, IMHO, and apropos to the OP). Of the some 9,822,922 of the population of Interwar West Ukraine (8,292,565 of the Southeastern voivodships of the Polish Second Republic, 725,357 of Carpathia Russinia and the 805,000 of Northern Bucovina; I don't count the Soviet parts, as they were overwhelmingly Orthodox, with the Vatican's flock nearly non-existent), included at least 2,286598 (224,261 Romanians, 2,062,337 Slavs of various sorts:the sources I can access admit the existence of Polish and Czechoslovak Orthodox, but do not give the means to sort them out from the Russians, Ukrainians, Ruthenians, Carpatho-Russians, Rusyn, Lemkos, etc.) confessing the Orthodox Faith of the Catholic Church before the first Soviet soldier moved Ukraine's Western border the first centimeter towards the Ribbentrop-Molotov line.  IOW, at least 23% of the population.
It gets even worse if the figures for the Polish Voivodships are limited to just the area now in Ukraine-then its contribution drops to 7,017,400 with no dimnuation of the Orthodox, leaving a total population of 8,547,757 and the Orthodox having 27% of that.
http://books.google.com/books?id=jLfX1q3kJzgC&pg=PR16&dq=Denominational+Structure+of+the+Ukrainian+Territories+Belonging+to+Poland+in+1931&hl=en&sa=X&ei=k3XtUaOdGJTlygHto4CACA&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Denominational%20Structure%20of%20the%20Ukrainian%20Territories%20Belonging%20to%20Poland%20in%201931&f=false
Even more than the 26.9% of the Latvian population "due to the Soviets moving Great Russians there" (itself a fallacy, as Great Russians lived in Latvia in the interwar years), the 24.8% of the Estonian population blamed on the same cause, and far more than the 5.8% of Lithuania blamed on the Soviets.  For comparison, the Great Russians made up 10.5% (and rising), 8.2% (later lost when the R.S.S.R helped itself to parts of Estonia) and 2.5% (the small number largely due to the Poliish occupation and annexation of Lithuania's capital) of the Interwar Baltic Republics respectively.  All without a shred of Soviet involvement.

On that, when the dust settled, the census of 1959 showed 7,799,058 in West Ukraine, with 402,938 Great Russians making up 5% of that. As the Orthodox 27% of the 1939 population in the same area did not evaporate, it seems that even if every Great Russian was Orthodox, they did not make up the bulk of the Orthodox population.  I guess that leaves those "Soviet Collaborators" you talked about.

But don't rob the Poles of their due: Operation Vistula and its fallout dumped about a million in West Ukraine.  Looking at the data on the Ukrainian and Belorussian Orthodox (and ignoring that on the Polish and Czech Orthodox), the Orthodox in Polish occupied Byelorussia etc., the fact that the various "Unions" had only about half a million (including Poles and others) before WWII in the Second Polish Republic's territories outside of what the Soviets latter annexed for Ukraine (including the territories the Soviets latter annexed for Belarus), and it becomes clear that over 500,000 of them were Orthodox.  That would boost the Orthodox share of West Ukraine not due any action of the Soviets (aside from annexing it, and allowing the Poles to expel, and accepting those expelled) to about 28% of the Interwar population, if Operation Vistula happened in the 30's instead of after WWII.  Count out of the population those Poles the Ukrainians killed and the Jews the Holocaust killed during the War, and the Poles, Hungarians and Germans etc. the Soviets expelled after the War, and I dare say that you might have an Orthodox majority in West Ukraine, before the Soviets moving a single Great Russian, Orthodox or otherwise there.

Tangent: Transdniester should either be annexed to Russia or be recognized as the independent Russian country it is. It's not Romanian so it's not Moldova, and I don't think they want to be in the independent Ukraine either. I understand the Transdniestrians now have Russian passports. Interesting place, Transdniester. They miss the USSR, understandably; being a superpower was cool. But they're not really Communist, just good old-fashioned nationalists. They're Russian Orthodox; Tiraspol, their capital, has a cathedral. Backstory: like how the USSR handed the Crimea over from Russia to the Ukraine, never anticipating Ukrainian independence, it gave Transdniester, historically part of the Ukraine, to Moldova. Then Moldova became independent and the Russian majority in Transdniester didn't want to go along, being a minority in a Romanian country.
You left out the trade for Bucovina and Hertza, almost twice the size of Transnistria.

It is "not Romanian" only because of that Soviet occupation you talk about.  As late as 1769 the Metropolitan of Moldavia, as  "Mitropolitan of Proilavia, of Tamarova, of Hotin, and of all the borders of the Danube, of the Dniester, and the Han's Ukraine" had jurisdiction over a population that had a Romanian majority.
Transnistria's creation lies in the Soviets desire to make an irridentist claim to Bessarabia.

Romanians made up almost a third of the population-yet less than two thirds of all the Romanians in Ukraine

which predate the Soviets and even the Czars' seizure of the territory:


btw, somewhere here I went into some detail with Heorhij over this.

My guesses: Moldova will join Romania and Byelorussia will rejoin Russia; the only issues are now the conditions just aren't right. My sources: talking to a Romanian and to an American married to a Byelorussian who's been there many times. Also from him: Byelorussia doesn't pretend it's free but in practice they are; Russians like strongmen and Lukashenko's been around so long, since Soviet times, because the Byelorussians like him. Until recently, ditto Transdniester; same leader from Soviet times.
To be brutally honest, as long its population come to the Ukrainian Orthodox Metropolitan, or the Metropolitinate of Bessarabia of the Romanian Orthodox Church, I couldn't care less.
Most of the Ukraine is Russian.
Not quite:
percentage of native Ukrainian speakers:

percentage of native Russian speakers:


America's been trying to screw around with the country, further distancing it from Russia. It backed the Orange Revolution (Viktor Yushchenko) and Yushchenko's Kiev Patriarchate vs. the legitimate Orthodox church in the Ukraine, the Russian Orthodox Church. It's as if Russia egged on California to secede from the Union and backed the new government, and pushed California's Catholics to break with Rome. No wonder Putin's angry. (By the way, California probably could make it as an independent country.)
LOL.
A response would land this in politics.
Btw, CA tried its Bear Republic. Btw, where did they get the bear?

Quote
Once the colony was established at Fort Ross and trade with el Presidio de San Francisco became a regular activity. And as an increasing number of European visitors sailed through the mouth of San Francisco Bay the settlers needed to escape from the monotony of colonial life. They also needed to prove to incoming ships that they were still apart of the civilized European community, and the quadrangle of el Presidio de San Francisco represented the face of this new thriving community (Voss 66). A welcomed break was often found through, “social events between the two settlements foster[ing] friendships, alliances, and romance among the colonial communities” (Voss 201). While it is difficult to envision what these social interactions would look like, we do know that they included dinner parties, dances (fandangos) and the infamous bull-and-bear fights. Traditionally these fights would include a bull, representing Spain, and a bear, representing Russia, in a fight to the death. The colonists would send hunting parties out to retrieve a California Grizzly Bear from the north and a traditional Spanish Bull from a southern ranchero (Blind 2008).
http://remixpresidio.wordpress.com/


I've known both Greek Catholic WWII refugees from Galicia, Ukrainian in spades, and post-Soviet immigrants from Kharkov who didn't want to be Ukrainian; they were Russians.
I was shocked to talk to a Ukrainian, from Galicia post WWII, who married a girl from there after his family had moved here, what you call a "Greek Catholic" (named "Roman" no less), who was a Russophile (I thought they had died out or been killed off in Galicia, or otherwise eliminated by the =Soviet Collaborator, especially among the "Greek Catholic" after 1946).  His cousin related, with some pride, how going to the University of Kiev someone protested the use of Russian and he was told to shut up.

I don't buy that they are the majority, as they claimed, but I can't deny their existence, strange as it might seem.

See, I'm both Catholic and pro-Russian, as my regular readers know.
Ah, I was satisfied just having our paths cross.  I didn't know I had to hunt you down as well.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 06:39:52 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #292 on: July 22, 2013, 06:45:14 PM »

A sad thought, when in 2413, Ialmisry the VII writes "A brief History of the Orthodox at the turn of the 21st Century" (map annotated edition) it will be as full of intrigue, confusion and scheming as the current tomes on the 16th century. Let's pray that there will folks interested in the subject! ( I'm not commenting about Isa, I'm just making an observation of how little humans change in their behavior.)
Historians and historiography depends on them not changing.  Otherwise, who would be interested in the subject?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Peacemaker
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 371


« Reply #293 on: July 26, 2013, 08:27:51 AM »

I haven't read through the whole thread, but is there still any hope for the western rite in ROCOR?

Yes. The official word from them is although they've ended their Western Rite Vicariate (me: because of its disciplinary problems), the Western Rite communities (parishes and monasteries) still exist as stavropegial (directly under the metropolitan first hierarch). So we'll see.
Ok, good. Well, I'm definitely going to keep them in my prayers. Not that any one cares about the opinoins of this silly Latin heretic  Cheesy, but I think the Western Rite is a wonderful thing.

I never understood the reason for Western Rite myself, it's a halfway house or a half step if you will to Orthodoxy, just man up and be Orthodox.
Logged

This user is no longer active.
monkvasyl
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: UOC 0f USA
Posts: 653



« Reply #294 on: July 26, 2013, 08:34:40 AM »

I haven't read through the whole thread, but is there still any hope for the western rite in ROCOR?

Yes. The official word from them is although they've ended their Western Rite Vicariate (me: because of its disciplinary problems), the Western Rite communities (parishes and monasteries) still exist as stavropegial (directly under the metropolitan first hierarch). So we'll see.
Ok, good. Well, I'm definitely going to keep them in my prayers. Not that any one cares about the opinoins of this silly Latin heretic  Cheesy, but I think the Western Rite is a wonderful thing.

I never understood the reason for Western Rite myself, it's a halfway house or a half step if you will to Orthodoxy, just man up and be Orthodox.

When the day finally comes when there will be True unity among the churches, there will be a diversity of rites.  One rite should not be superior to another. 
Logged

The unworthy hierodeacon, Vasyl
The young fogey
Archon
********
Online Online

Posts: 2,520


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #295 on: July 26, 2013, 09:10:52 AM »

I haven't read through the whole thread, but is there still any hope for the western rite in ROCOR?

Yes. The official word from them is although they've ended their Western Rite Vicariate (me: because of its disciplinary problems), the Western Rite communities (parishes and monasteries) still exist as stavropegial (directly under the metropolitan first hierarch). So we'll see.
Ok, good. Well, I'm definitely going to keep them in my prayers. Not that any one cares about the opinoins of this silly Latin heretic  Cheesy, but I think the Western Rite is a wonderful thing.

I never understood the reason for Western Rite myself, it's a halfway house or a half step if you will to Orthodoxy, just man up and be Orthodox.

When the day finally comes when there will be True unity among the churches, there will be a diversity of rites.  One rite should not be superior to another. 

The showcase churches of the other side's rite are an application of the one-true-church claim and thus the claim to universality. On both sides it has had two versions, either a faithful mimicking of the other side (the little Russian Catholic Church in a few American cities, the AWRV's traditional Catholicism minus the Pope) or a heavily nativized version coming from the hate and distrust of the other side (heavily latinized Greek Catholic parishes, ROCOR WRV's anti-Catholic, heavily russo-byzantinized made-up rites).
Logged

Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,492



« Reply #296 on: July 26, 2013, 09:43:11 AM »

I haven't read through the whole thread, but is there still any hope for the western rite in ROCOR?

Yes. The official word from them is although they've ended their Western Rite Vicariate (me: because of its disciplinary problems), the Western Rite communities (parishes and monasteries) still exist as stavropegial (directly under the metropolitan first hierarch). So we'll see.
Ok, good. Well, I'm definitely going to keep them in my prayers. Not that any one cares about the opinoins of this silly Latin heretic  Cheesy, but I think the Western Rite is a wonderful thing.

I never understood the reason for Western Rite myself, it's a halfway house or a half step if you will to Orthodoxy, just man up and be Orthodox.

I apply for Russian citizenship right away. Too bad I cut my beard and lost my samovar at some point.

EDIT: Now that I think of it, "Just man up and be Orthodox" has some serious potential for a meme. We need a picture of shirtless Putin with that text.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 09:55:59 AM by Alpo » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #297 on: July 26, 2013, 10:09:36 AM »

I haven't read through the whole thread, but is there still any hope for the western rite in ROCOR?

Yes. The official word from them is although they've ended their Western Rite Vicariate (me: because of its disciplinary problems), the Western Rite communities (parishes and monasteries) still exist as stavropegial (directly under the metropolitan first hierarch). So we'll see.
Ok, good. Well, I'm definitely going to keep them in my prayers. Not that any one cares about the opinoins of this silly Latin heretic  Cheesy, but I think the Western Rite is a wonderful thing.

I never understood the reason for Western Rite myself, it's a halfway house or a half step if you will to Orthodoxy, just man up and be Orthodox.
The WRO man up, and then some.

In fact, I've been WRO who were Eastern Orthodox-as in ethnic Orthodox-who assimilated to where they lived.  Unlike the many Greeks, Arabs etc. who go Episcopalian when they Americanize.

Constantinople is neither the first nor only Orthodox see.  Hence the term New Rome.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
The young fogey
Archon
********
Online Online

Posts: 2,520


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #298 on: July 26, 2013, 10:37:29 AM »

This tangent reminds me of much of American Orthodox history, not just the Slavic ex-Catholics but the Greek majority. There's long been a trend to blend in, when American culture was something I like better than now. So early on, priests shaved and wore black suits with either Roman notch or Episcopal white-band clerical collars. (Legend has it there's a picture of St Tikhon in a suit.) Related, the Tsar spoke fluent English with an upper-class English accent; he didn't go to Liturgy for Nativity; he went to Mass on Christmas. Ethnic American Orthodoxy really was a lot like '50s American Catholicism but without the Pope and with married priests. Might that have been or be a way for American Orthodoxy to go, rather than the anti-Western Western converts dressing like 19th-century Russians?
Logged

TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 6,950



« Reply #299 on: July 26, 2013, 10:39:58 AM »

This tangent reminds me of much of American Orthodox history, not just the Slavic ex-Catholics but the Greek majority. There's long been a trend to blend in, when American culture was something I like better than now. So early on, priests shaved and wore black suits with either Roman notch or Episcopal white-band clerical collars. (Legend has it there's a picture of St Tikhon in a suit.) Related, the Tsar spoke fluent English with an upper-class English accent; he didn't go to Liturgy for Nativity; he went to Mass on Christmas. Ethnic American Orthodoxy really was a lot like '50s American Catholicism but without the Pope and with married priests. Might that have been or be a way for American Orthodoxy to go, rather than the anti-Western Western converts dressing like 19th-century Russians?
Are you suggesting I should cut my beard?  ANATHEMA

Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Faith: BZZT
Posts: 29,237



« Reply #300 on: July 26, 2013, 10:40:34 AM »

There's apparently somewhere around 800,000 to 1,000,000 Orthodox in America... how many do you reckon are "anti-Western Western converts dressing like 19th-century Russians"?
Logged
The young fogey
Archon
********
Online Online

Posts: 2,520


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #301 on: July 26, 2013, 10:46:49 AM »

There's apparently somewhere around 800,000 to 1,000,000 Orthodox in America... how many do you reckon are "anti-Western Western converts dressing like 19th-century Russians"?

Orthodoxy's about 99% non-American, ethnics who are part of Western civilization. But in America they're dying out as the ethnics die or assimilate; the converts are loud online but demographically a flash in the pan.
Logged

Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 15,234


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #302 on: July 26, 2013, 10:49:10 AM »

I never understood the reason for Western Rite myself, it's a halfway house or a half step if you will to Orthodoxy, just man up and be Orthodox.

I agree.  When are you becoming Oriental Orthodox? 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Faith: BZZT
Posts: 29,237



« Reply #303 on: July 26, 2013, 10:51:04 AM »

How do you differentiate between non-American and ethnics? In every parish environment I can remember interacting with folks in, all (or all but a handful) could speak English, and usually with no accent. Seemed American to me. Where is the line between ethnic and American? 2nd generation? 3rd? Can speak English fluently? Doesn't tell tales of the old country?
Logged
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 6,950



« Reply #304 on: July 26, 2013, 10:53:23 AM »

There's apparently somewhere around 800,000 to 1,000,000 Orthodox in America... how many do you reckon are "anti-Western Western converts dressing like 19th-century Russians"?

Orthodoxy's about 99% non-American, ethnics who are part of Western civilization. But in America they're dying out as the ethnics die or assimilate; the converts are loud online but demographically a flash in the pan.
I do not see this substantiated by the research that has been done or by my own personal experience.  About 2/3 of my parish is converts with another 1/4 being the decendants of converts. Several of the other parishes in my area have similar demographics. Of course, TYF is privy to secret research that no one else knows about, so...  Roll Eyes
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
The young fogey
Archon
********
Online Online

Posts: 2,520


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #305 on: July 26, 2013, 10:56:58 AM »

Right, don't forget the OO's true-church claim, a wrench in the works of the EO-OO bromance in fora like these.

Worldwide Orthodoxy is 99% non-American. Likewise, American Orthodoxy is 99% ethnic. And getting smaller. And famous for inflating its numbers.
Logged

Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 15,234


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #306 on: July 26, 2013, 11:11:41 AM »

Right, don't forget the OO's true-church claim, a wrench in the works of the EO-OO bromance in fora like these.


Not really, and not just because I don't see the bromance you see, but never mind.  

My comment had more to do with the "Man up and be Orthodox" concept.  As if the type of Orthodoxy being promoted by such comments isn't Western?  Western culture, music, languages, etc. already dominate Eastern Orthodoxy in general, but particularly in its Slavic manifestations.  Using more smells and bells than the Pope of Rome doesn't make you Eastern.    

Edited to clarify two points.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 11:12:49 AM by Mor Ephrem » Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 6,950



« Reply #307 on: July 26, 2013, 11:16:25 AM »

Right, don't forget the OO's true-church claim, a wrench in the works of the EO-OO bromance in fora like these.

Worldwide Orthodoxy is 99% non-American. Likewise, American Orthodoxy is 99% ethnic. And getting smaller. And famous for inflating its numbers.

I am 99% sure that 99% of your statistics are comprised of 99% horse manure.

« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 11:17:59 AM by TheTrisagion » Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
The young fogey
Archon
********
Online Online

Posts: 2,520


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #308 on: July 26, 2013, 11:17:52 AM »

Gotcha, Mor. To the OO, the EO are 'the West'. And as Fr Anthony Chadwick, an Anglican, put it, Russia especially is a halfway house between Western Europe and Asia.
Logged

The young fogey
Archon
********
Online Online

Posts: 2,520


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #309 on: July 26, 2013, 11:24:38 AM »

Anyway, you can see the AWRV as part of American Orthodox assimilation, a side project in the same phenomenon: the little Arab-American church saw missionary potential in having a then-contemporary Catholicism without the Pope. The ROCOR WRV took a different path, based more on ROCOR's fanatical phase/anti-Sixties backlash (not a bad impulse): not assimilation but creating something different from Byzantine but entirely Orthodox, again as if a Catholic held up latinized Greek Catholicism as the way Orthodoxy must go to be under Rome. There are dummies on both sides who think their majority rite is THE way; smells like phyletism to me.
Logged

Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,023



« Reply #310 on: July 26, 2013, 11:33:33 AM »

I never understood the reason for Western Rite myself, it's a halfway house or a half step if you will to Orthodoxy, just man up and be Orthodox.

So now WRO aren't real Orthodox?
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,023



« Reply #311 on: July 26, 2013, 11:40:00 AM »

Orthodoxy's about 99% non-American, ethnics who are part of Western civilization. But in America they're dying out as the ethnics die or assimilate; the converts are loud online but demographically a flash in the pan.

When describing a majority, American minds always seem to jump the number 99%. At least 99% of the time.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #312 on: July 26, 2013, 12:11:43 PM »

This tangent reminds me of much of American Orthodox history, not just the Slavic ex-Catholics but the Greek majority. There's long been a trend to blend in, when American culture was something I like better than now. So early on, priests shaved and wore black suits with either Roman notch or Episcopal white-band clerical collars. (Legend has it there's a picture of St Tikhon in a suit.) Related, the Tsar spoke fluent English with an upper-class English accent; he didn't go to Liturgy for Nativity; he went to Mass on Christmas. Ethnic American Orthodoxy really was a lot like '50s American Catholicism but without the Pope and with married priests. Might that have been or be a way for American Orthodoxy to go, rather than the anti-Western Western converts dressing like 19th-century Russians?
I seem to recall a lot of 19th-century Russians being anti-Western, and not having to convert to do so.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #313 on: July 26, 2013, 12:13:29 PM »

There's apparently somewhere around 800,000 to 1,000,000 Orthodox in America... how many do you reckon are "anti-Western Western converts dressing like 19th-century Russians"?

Orthodoxy's about 99% non-American, ethnics who are part of Western civilization. But in America they're dying out as the ethnics die or assimilate; the converts are loud online but demographically a flash in the pan.
Not even the GOARCH is 99% non-American.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Peacemaker
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 371


« Reply #314 on: July 26, 2013, 01:52:50 PM »

I never understood the reason for Western Rite myself, it's a halfway house or a half step if you will to Orthodoxy, just man up and be Orthodox.

I agree.  When are you becoming Oriental Orthodox? 

When they stop being schematics and accept God is both fully God and fully man.
Logged

This user is no longer active.
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.182 seconds with 71 queries.