So the western Ukraine's more Russian Orthodox than I thought?
No, less in submission to the Vatican than you thought. I really didn't get into the Orthodox numbers, Russian or otherwise.
OK, fine. Could be due to the Soviets moving Great Russians there, as happened in the Baltics, in some cases a huge minority there (issue: Russians born there, now not welcome; not fair!).
No, as, as the Polish Second Republic found out, the place had plenty of Orthodox, despite Poland's best efforts to get rid of them (the Republic's last official act was closing the last Orthodox Church left in Lutsk and converting it to a cathedral of the Vatican's Latin ordinary). The reason why, with the powers the Vatican vested in it by the Concordat, restricted Met. Sheptytskyi to the predecessor of the three oblasts, with the Vatican's blessings-it slapped the Metropolitan's hand when he tried to go exert jurisdiction West, North, East or South of the territory of the old Crownland of Galicia. The Rivne and Volyn oblasts remained Orthodox, despite the Poles best efforts. The Chernivtsi oblast had been a stronghold of Ruthenian/Ukrainian Orthodoxy since the days of Austria Hungary: rule by Romania (which had a king in communion with the Vatican most of the interwar period, and his Constitution and Concordat with the Vatican favored the "Church in Union with Rome, Greek Catholic") did not change that. In the Zakarpattia oblast, the Orthodox, having survived the treason trials from 1882 and concentration camps of Tallerhof of the Habsburgs, had formed the dominant constituent core of the Orthodox Church of Czechoslovakia, bringing the WRO core of the primate St. Bp. Gorazd into the Eastern Rite (unfortunately, IMHO, and apropos to the OP). Of the some 9,822,922 of the population of Interwar West Ukraine (8,292,565 of the Southeastern voivodships of the Polish Second Republic, 725,357 of Carpathia Russinia and the 805,000 of Northern Bucovina; I don't count the Soviet parts, as they were overwhelmingly Orthodox, with the Vatican's flock nearly non-existent), included at least 2,286598 (224,261 Romanians, 2,062,337 Slavs of various sorts:the sources I can access admit the existence of Polish and Czechoslovak Orthodox, but do not give the means to sort them out from the Russians, Ukrainians, Ruthenians, Carpatho-Russians, Rusyn, Lemkos, etc.) confessing the Orthodox Faith of the Catholic Church before the first Soviet soldier moved Ukraine's Western border the first centimeter towards the Ribbentrop-Molotov line. IOW, at least 23% of the population.
It gets even worse if the figures for the Polish Voivodships are limited to just the area now in Ukraine-then its contribution drops to 7,017,400 with no dimnuation of the Orthodox, leaving a total population of 8,547,757 and the Orthodox having 27% of that.http://books.google.com/books?id=jLfX1q3kJzgC&pg=PR16&dq=Denominational+Structure+of+the+Ukrainian+Territories+Belonging+to+Poland+in+1931&hl=en&sa=X&ei=k3XtUaOdGJTlygHto4CACA&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Denominational%20Structure%20of%20the%20Ukrainian%20Territories%20Belonging%20to%20Poland%20in%201931&f=false
Even more than the 26.9% of the Latvian population "due to the Soviets moving Great Russians there" (itself a fallacy, as Great Russians lived in Latvia in the interwar years), the 24.8% of the Estonian population blamed on the same cause, and far more than the 5.8% of Lithuania blamed on the Soviets. For comparison, the Great Russians made up 10.5% (and rising), 8.2% (later lost when the R.S.S.R helped itself to parts of Estonia) and 2.5% (the small number largely due to the Poliish occupation and annexation of Lithuania's capital) of the Interwar Baltic Republics respectively. All without a shred of Soviet involvement.
On that, when the dust settled, the census of 1959 showed 7,799,058 in West Ukraine, with 402,938 Great Russians making up 5% of that. As the Orthodox 27% of the 1939 population in the same area did not evaporate, it seems that even if every Great Russian was Orthodox, they did not make up the bulk of the Orthodox population. I guess that leaves those "Soviet Collaborators" you talked about.
But don't rob the Poles of their due: Operation Vistula and its fallout dumped about a million in West Ukraine. Looking at the data on the Ukrainian and Belorussian Orthodox (and ignoring that on the Polish and Czech Orthodox), the Orthodox in Polish occupied Byelorussia etc., the fact that the various "Unions" had only about half a million (including Poles and others) before WWII in the Second Polish Republic's territories outside of what the Soviets latter annexed for Ukraine (including the territories the Soviets latter annexed for Belarus), and it becomes clear that over 500,000 of them were Orthodox. That would boost the Orthodox share of West Ukraine not due any action of the Soviets (aside from annexing it, and allowing the Poles to expel, and accepting those expelled) to about 28% of the Interwar population, if Operation Vistula happened in the 30's instead of after WWII. Count out of the population those Poles the Ukrainians killed and the Jews the Holocaust killed during the War, and the Poles, Hungarians and Germans etc. the Soviets expelled after the War, and I dare say that you might have an Orthodox majority in West Ukraine, before the Soviets moving a single Great Russian, Orthodox or otherwise there.
Tangent: Transdniester should either be annexed to Russia or be recognized as the independent Russian country it is. It's not Romanian so it's not Moldova, and I don't think they want to be in the independent Ukraine either. I understand the Transdniestrians now have Russian passports. Interesting place, Transdniester. They miss the USSR, understandably; being a superpower was cool. But they're not really Communist, just good old-fashioned nationalists. They're Russian Orthodox; Tiraspol, their capital, has a cathedral. Backstory: like how the USSR handed the Crimea over from Russia to the Ukraine, never anticipating Ukrainian independence, it gave Transdniester, historically part of the Ukraine, to Moldova. Then Moldova became independent and the Russian majority in Transdniester didn't want to go along, being a minority in a Romanian country.
You left out the trade for Bucovina and Hertza, almost twice the size of Transnistria.
It is "not Romanian" only because of that Soviet occupation you talk about. As late as 1769 the Metropolitan of Moldavia, as "Mitropolitan of Proilavia, of Tamarova, of Hotin, and of all the borders of the Danube, of the Dniester, and the Han's Ukraine" had jurisdiction over a population that had a Romanian majority.
Transnistria's creation lies in the Soviets desire to make an irridentist claim to Bessarabia.
Romanians made up almost a third of the population-yet less than two thirds of all the Romanians in Ukraine
which predate the Soviets and even the Czars' seizure of the territory:
btw, somewhere here I went into some detail with Heorhij over this.
My guesses: Moldova will join Romania and Byelorussia will rejoin Russia; the only issues are now the conditions just aren't right. My sources: talking to a Romanian and to an American married to a Byelorussian who's been there many times. Also from him: Byelorussia doesn't pretend it's free but in practice they are; Russians like strongmen and Lukashenko's been around so long, since Soviet times, because the Byelorussians like him. Until recently, ditto Transdniester; same leader from Soviet times.
To be brutally honest, as long its population come to the Ukrainian Orthodox Metropolitan, or the Metropolitinate of Bessarabia of the Romanian Orthodox Church, I couldn't care less.
Most of the Ukraine is Russian.
percentage of native Ukrainian speakers:
percentage of native Russian speakers:
America's been trying to screw around with the country, further distancing it from Russia. It backed the Orange Revolution (Viktor Yushchenko) and Yushchenko's Kiev Patriarchate vs. the legitimate Orthodox church in the Ukraine, the Russian Orthodox Church. It's as if Russia egged on California to secede from the Union and backed the new government, and pushed California's Catholics to break with Rome. No wonder Putin's angry. (By the way, California probably could make it as an independent country.)
A response would land this in politics.
Btw, CA tried its Bear Republic. Btw, where did they get the bear?
Once the colony was established at Fort Ross and trade with el Presidio de San Francisco became a regular activity. And as an increasing number of European visitors sailed through the mouth of San Francisco Bay the settlers needed to escape from the monotony of colonial life. They also needed to prove to incoming ships that they were still apart of the civilized European community, and the quadrangle of el Presidio de San Francisco represented the face of this new thriving community (Voss 66). A welcomed break was often found through, “social events between the two settlements foster[ing] friendships, alliances, and romance among the colonial communities” (Voss 201). While it is difficult to envision what these social interactions would look like, we do know that they included dinner parties, dances (fandangos) and the infamous bull-and-bear fights. Traditionally these fights would include a bull, representing Spain, and a bear, representing Russia, in a fight to the death. The colonists would send hunting parties out to retrieve a California Grizzly Bear from the north and a traditional Spanish Bull from a southern ranchero (Blind 2008). http://remixpresidio.wordpress.com/
I've known both Greek Catholic WWII refugees from Galicia, Ukrainian in spades, and post-Soviet immigrants from Kharkov who didn't want to be Ukrainian; they were Russians.
I was shocked to talk to a Ukrainian, from Galicia post WWII, who married a girl from there after his family had moved here, what you call a "Greek Catholic" (named "Roman" no less), who was a Russophile (I thought they had died out or been killed off in Galicia, or otherwise eliminated by the =Soviet Collaborator, especially among the "Greek Catholic" after 1946). His cousin related, with some pride, how going to the University of Kiev someone protested the use of Russian and he was told to shut up.
I don't buy that they are the majority, as they claimed, but I can't deny their existence, strange as it might seem.
See, I'm both Catholic and pro-Russian, as my regular readers know.
Ah, I was satisfied just having our paths cross. I didn't know I had to hunt you down as well.