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Author Topic: Looks like ROCOR will dismantle its WR  (Read 21353 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #225 on: July 20, 2013, 12:28:42 PM »

The story of Greek Catholics coming to America to become Orthodox is a myth.  They only converted after being treated badly by the Latins.

If it's even that ... Greek Catholics coming to America to become Orthodox seems too absurd an idea to even be called a myth.

although he came to America after converting in Russia, and being convicted of the crime of Orthodoxy in hungary.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #226 on: July 20, 2013, 01:46:31 PM »

And by 1930, they had another option: going back to Orthodoxy.  The father of my old priest was told to do just that by his bishop in AH, getting his papers to leave for the new world: "here we have to be katolik, there you do not have to be katolik."

Which is why they all became Orthodox immediately upon getting to America.  Oh wait, none of them did.  It took Latin chauvinism and harassment and several years for that to happen.
A number of them came to America Orthodox: they had been coming home back home in Galicia and Carpathia at least since 1882.  The Metropolitan of Bukowina supplied priests both in the New World and in Galicia (where it was somewhat illegal, but perfectly canonical).  By the outbreak of WWI, the Metropolitanate of Czernowitz was becoming the other half of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, where one of its own was set to succeed the Metropolitan, when WWI and the fall of the Habsburgs resulted in Bucovina being reunited to Romania, and the Ukrainians/Ruthenians were integrated into the Romanian patriarchate-until Stalin and Khrushchev united them to UKraine, reuniting Ukraine and the Ukrainian Church.

In the case at bar, despite the bishops advice, the priest did not take it immediately upon getting to America.  It did take the Latin bishop refusing him because he was married to run home.  But it didn't take him several years to do it.  In fact, it took only a year for our father among the saints Alexis Toth and his parishioners to blaze the trail home in the New World.
Changing your story I see.
Not at all. Ever.
First they were told to change when they got to America, now they changed before they came.
You're the one who said the absolute "all", not I, Deacon.

Nor did was the American community being immediately referenced: the story was in reply to Young Fogey's "There was no shopping for a religion in an eastern Slovakian village; you had the Greek Catholic parish or you stayed home."  In the 1930's Met. St. Gorazd had already brought back enough in Slovakia and Subcarpathia that the Western Orthodox Church of Czechoslovakia went East with their union with them in the Church of Czechoslovakia (now the Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia):

Quote
Czechoslovak Bishop Visits United States
Bishop Gorazd Pavlik. of the new Czechoslovak Church, is in this country, where he has been attending the Episcopalian convention at Portland, Ore. The bishop spent several weeks In New York conducting services in the Church of the Heavenly Rest each Sunday for the Czechoslovaks of the city. One evening he addressed a large audience of Czechoslovaks at Jan Hus Presbyterian church and explained the aims and purpose of the new church of the home land. While the Czechoslovak Church still employs the old ceremonies—very similar to those of the Roman Catholic Church—it conducts them in the language of the people and also gives the Bible to the people. In the last two years 125,000 Bibles have been distributed to the members of the church. Over 800.000 people have Joined it, and accessions are being received at the rate of 1,000 a day. The leaders of the church are working hard for the separation of church and state, and are suffering much persecution from the Roman Catholics, but Bishop Pavlik is remarkably tolerant and generous in his attitude toward his church's enemies, and is a wise and Christian statesman in an important place.
http://books.google.com/books?id=e3ZPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1283&dq=Gorazd+Pavlik&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pMjqUbzpCMKVrgGop4CYBw&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Gorazd%20Pavlik&f=false
The Interior, October 12, 1922.
Quote
End of the Bohemian Schism.
The "National Church" of CzechoSlovaka, sectarian offspring of the 1918 Revolution, is fast approaching its end. It has lived for five years. A part of this sect has given up entirely the hopes once entertained of forming a separate ecclesiastical institution, and, under the leadership of "Bishop" Gorazd Pavlik, has affiliated with the Serbian Orthodox body.
http://books.google.com/books?id=YGTQAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA507&dq=Gorazd+Pavlik&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3MnqUZioCYXXrQGEuYHYCA&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Gorazd%20Pavlik&f=false
Annals of Saint Joseph June 1924
Quote
In Czechoslovakia the Orthodox Church springs from three different causes.  The first was an attempt by Sladovsky and Gregr in 1863 to alienate the Czechs from the Roman Catholic Church in the belief that such conversion would improve the political status of the people.  Needless to say it showed but meager results. However, after the War, this faction was vitalized by the Orthodox converts, who accepted the teachings of this Church in Russia. Its Bishop, Savaty-Vra-bec, was ordained by the Patriarch of Constantinople.  Russinia supplies the second current of Orthodoxy. Here it has had a long history as at one time it was the popular religion. Its 80 parishes have between 80,000 and 110,000 adherents. The third cause of introduction of Orthodoxy is the seperation of the priests from the Roman Catholic Church after the War and formation of the Czechoslovak Church. This Orthodox faction is found mainly in Moravia and its leader is Bishop Gorazd-Pavlik. It is expected that this group "will formally leave the Czechoslovak Church and join the Orthodox Church. Since there can be only one Orthodox Church in the Republic, it is necessary, in conformity with the agreements between Jugoslavia and Czechoslovakia, to affect a consolidation of all factions.
http://books.google.com/books?id=AgQdAAAAMAAJ&q=%22In+Czechoslovakia+the+Orthodox+Church+springs+from+three+different+causes%22&dq=%22In+Czechoslovakia+the+Orthodox+Church+springs+from+three+different+causes%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ec3qUZ_JAoWTqgHb-4CIDg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA
The Czechoslovak Review 1923

Holy Hierarch and Neo-Martyr Gorazd, pray for us!

The story of Greek Catholics coming to America to become Orthodox is a myth.
Facts are stubborn things.  Ruin many a narrative, not just the Vatican's and their hanger-on-ers.
They only converted after being treated badly by the Latins.
Some things never change.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 01:54:07 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #227 on: July 20, 2013, 01:50:21 PM »

The story of Greek Catholics coming to America to become Orthodox is a myth.  They only converted after being treated badly by the Latins.

If it's even that ... Greek Catholics coming to America to become Orthodox seems too absurd an idea to even be called a myth.
well, in that case, Truth is stranger than fiction.

Of course, many of them just went over the border to the Russian Empire or, if they wanted/needed/were required to stay in Austria Hungary, in order to convert without harassment.  Some just converted and stayed put.  They form the majority now in the dark brown (the light brown is the Vatican's flock that they left) in Slovakia today:
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 01:58:33 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #228 on: July 20, 2013, 02:34:48 PM »

We have a dear friend, Michael, now 85, born and baptized Orthodox in Ambridge, Pa. Before the war the Ambridge Rusyns sent money to build a beautiful Orthodox Church in Svetlice, Slovakia. Michael's family moved back with him in the early 1930's to find only a few American expats at the new Orthodox church while all of the old country relatives attended the ramshackle Greek Catholic parish. Same occurred in Becherov, my mother in laws village nearby. After the war Michael came back to America with his US Citizenship one step ahead of the Russians. He has been active his whole life in the Orthodox church here, is a great benefactor to the Orthodox orphanage in Medzilaborce and is an Archon of the Ecumenical Throne  for recognition of his charity over the years (ALL non Hellenic I have to add.) Don't call him a Russian, and don't insult him with inflated claims about Orthodoxy in Slovakia or in Transcarpathia. You won't like what he would tell you. This coming from a man who is a close friend of the late Orthodox  Bishops Nicholas and Vsevelod (USA) and John (Slovakia) and Fr. Dymitry Sydor of Uzhorod.

As an aside, the wartime Orthodox priest in Svetlice is a hero of the Resistance. A monastic, he risked his life during the Nazi occupation and the Tiso years by saving Jews through the provision of metrical and baptismal records allowing many to survive. Honored in Israel as a "Righteous Gentile", he was honored by the Slovak and Israeli governments in the early 1990s when the Church was rededicated through the efforts of the Americans whose ancestors built it in the first place. By the way, the majority are still Greek Catholic...

Believe what you want, but Orthodoxy is equated with Russian chauvinism in modern Slovakia, the behavior of the Communists and the Orthodox in collusion with them following the war have ensured that to be the case for now and the foreseeable future.

« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 02:41:12 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #229 on: July 20, 2013, 02:43:17 PM »

Believe what you want, but Orthodoxy is equated with Russian chauvinism in modern Slovakia, the behavior of the Communists and the Orthodox in collusion with them following the war have ensured that to be the case for now and the foreseeable future.

They have a non-Russian autocephalous Orthodox church there and Orthodoxy is still equated with Russian chauvinism?
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« Reply #230 on: July 20, 2013, 02:49:52 PM »

Believe what you want, but Orthodoxy is equated with Russian chauvinism in modern Slovakia, the behavior of the Communists and the Orthodox in collusion with them following the war have ensured that to be the case for now and the foreseeable future.

They have a non-Russian autocephalous Orthodox church there and Orthodoxy is still equated with Russian chauvinism?

Yep...the struggle not to be the "Russian" Orthodox of Slovakia has been difficult, as Russians can be one of two things... deeply spiritual and embracing.. or "the Borg" of Othodoxy, assimilating other cultures in their wake. It really is a love/hate thing... we deal with it constantly...
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« Reply #231 on: July 20, 2013, 02:51:10 PM »

Are you a Slovak? I've never really understood who you ACRODians are ethnically and/or culturally speaking.
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ialmisry
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« Reply #232 on: July 20, 2013, 02:59:05 PM »

And by 1930, they had another option: going back to Orthodoxy.  The father of my old priest was told to do just that by his bishop in AH, getting his papers to leave for the new world: "here we have to be katolik, there you do not have to be katolik."

Which is why they all became Orthodox immediately upon getting to America.  Oh wait, none of them did.  It took Latin chauvinism and harassment and several years for that to happen.
A number of them came to America Orthodox: they had been coming home back home in Galicia and Carpathia at least since 1882.  The Metropolitan of Bukowina supplied priests both in the New World and in Galicia (where it was somewhat illegal, but perfectly canonical).  By the outbreak of WWI, the Metropolitanate of Czernowitz was becoming the other half of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, where one of its own was set to succeed the Metropolitan, when WWI and the fall of the Habsburgs resulted in Bucovina being reunited to Romania, and the Ukrainians/Ruthenians were integrated into the Romanian patriarchate-until Stalin and Khrushchev united them to UKraine, reuniting Ukraine and the Ukrainian Church.

In the case at bar, despite the bishops advice, the priest did not take it immediately upon getting to America.  It did take the Latin bishop refusing him because he was married to run home.  But it didn't take him several years to do it.  In fact, it took only a year for our father among the saints Alexis Toth and his parishioners to blaze the trail home in the New World.
Changing your story I see.  First they were told to change when they got to America, now they changed before they came.  The story of Greek Catholics coming to America to become Orthodox is a myth.  They only converted after being treated badly by the Latins.

I knew Bishop Chornock, Father Peter Molchany, Fr. John Dolhy and others who became Orthodox and others, like Fr. Al Matscov (sic) who stayed GC and dozens of immigrants in both camps....the Deacon is correct. The other version of coming to America be become Orthodox is ex post facto rationalization or just plain fiction.
Well, it was rationalized rather quickly.  Fr. Semkoff arrived in 1912, his draft registration in 1917 lists him as a Russian Orthodox priest, as does the American Church Almanac and Year Book of 1917
http://books.google.com/books?id=RZw9AAAAYAAJ&q=Semkoff+Peter&dq=Semkoff+Peter&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fdXqUbG1MM-zrgHPpYGACg&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAg
although the 1920 shows him being a "Greek Catholic Priest"-that might be because of the title "Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic," as he is listed as Pastor of Ascension Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church in Albion Michigan in the American Church Almanac and Year Book of 1928.
http://books.google.com/books?id=9E3OAAAAMAAJ&q=%22+ASCENSION+CHURCH+(Russian+Orthodox+Greek+Catholic)+Austin+Ave.%22+Semkoff&dq=%22+ASCENSION+CHURCH+(Russian+Orthodox+Greek+Catholic)+Austin+Ave.%22+Semkoff&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3NnqUe2oCe7KyQG_h4CICA&sqi=2&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA
The census of 1930 shows his occupation as "Russian Orthodox Priest."
(I learned the above census info. etc. from someone doing Rusyn genealogy and was looking for information).

This might be of interest: "The Austro-German hypocrisy and the Russian orthodox Greek catholic church" published in 1915 by Peter G. Kohanik, Russian Orthodox Catholic Mutual Aid Society of the United States of America
http://books.google.com/books?id=7f81AAAAMAAJ&q=%22Russian+Orthodox+Greek+Catholic%22&dq=%22Russian+Orthodox+Greek+Catholic%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DNvqUaylFcaUrgHZ8oGgBQ&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAg

In the last of Fr. Semkoff's 5 parishes that he founded, SS. Peter and Paul of Chicago, I met numbers of people whose forebares in America returned home to Orthodoxy, as did their relatives in Czechoslovakia (at the time united) separately.

Please note: I did not say he came to America to become Orthodox. Quite the opposite, he was shocked at what his bishop told him.  If the genealogy records are correct, he came to NYC with his father (at time he was a teenager, according to the records.  It was never mentioned to me how young he was when he was ordained).  At first he did not follow the bishop's advice, but like St. Alexis, he learned fast.  And worked fast-in just two decades, he led a number back to Orthodoxy to found five parishes in three states for the Russian Metropolia.
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« Reply #233 on: July 20, 2013, 02:59:37 PM »

Are you a Slovak?

I've generally thought of podkarpatska as an American. (Not that you should go by me.  Cool)
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« Reply #234 on: July 20, 2013, 03:07:47 PM »

Are you a Slovak?

I've generally thought of podkarpatska as an American. (Not that you should go by me.  Cool)

Well yes of course but AFAIK Americans seem to also have fairly strong non-American identity based on their non-American familyline.
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« Reply #235 on: July 20, 2013, 03:19:49 PM »

Are you a Slovak? I've never really understood who you ACRODians are ethnically and/or culturally speaking.
LOL. A little ialmisry lead for an avatar and jurisdiction, and Ramstein for a byline.

That's a good question. To be honest, having dealt with a lot of them (and the related OCA) in the US and (Czecho)Slovakia, I haven't see a consensus.  Which is perhaps showing.
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« Reply #236 on: July 20, 2013, 03:24:14 PM »

Believe what you want, but Orthodoxy is equated with Russian chauvinism in modern Slovakia, the behavior of the Communists and the Orthodox in collusion with them following the war have ensured that to be the case for now and the foreseeable future.

They have a non-Russian autocephalous Orthodox church there and Orthodoxy is still equated with Russian chauvinism?

Yep...the struggle not to be the "Russian" Orthodox of Slovakia has been difficult, as Russians can be one of two things... deeply spiritual and embracing.. or "the Borg" of Othodoxy, assimilating other cultures in their wake. It really is a love/hate thing... we deal with it constantly...
The most time I spent with the people in question was Fr. Semkoff and his parish.  They were all strongly Russophile, and yet were very definite that they were not "Great-Russians" (for lack of a better term) while strongly identifying with Russia.  They did/do not identify with Ukraine at all, but looked at (Czech)Slovakia as "the old country" and home while seemingly oblivious to the existence of Slovaks (I never heard them mentioned).

Sort of like the Southerners in the South (i.e. Dixie), once they have given up their separatism, and America.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 03:25:17 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #237 on: July 20, 2013, 03:39:00 PM »

We have a dear friend, Michael, now 85, born and baptized Orthodox in Ambridge, Pa. Before the war the Ambridge Rusyns sent money to build a beautiful Orthodox Church in Svetlice, Slovakia. Michael's family moved back with him in the early 1930's to find only a few American expats at the new Orthodox church while all of the old country relatives attended the ramshackle Greek Catholic parish. Same occurred in Becherov, my mother in laws village nearby. After the war Michael came back to America with his US Citizenship one step ahead of the Russians. He has been active his whole life in the Orthodox church here, is a great benefactor to the Orthodox orphanage in Medzilaborce and is an Archon of the Ecumenical Throne  for recognition of his charity over the years (ALL non Hellenic I have to add.) Don't call him a Russian, and don't insult him with inflated claims about Orthodoxy in Slovakia or in Transcarpathia. You won't like what he would tell you. This coming from a man who is a close friend of the late Orthodox  Bishops Nicholas and Vsevelod (USA) and John (Slovakia) and Fr. Dymitry Sydor of Uzhorod.

As an aside, the wartime Orthodox priest in Svetlice is a hero of the Resistance. A monastic, he risked his life during the Nazi occupation and the Tiso years by saving Jews through the provision of metrical and baptismal records allowing many to survive. Honored in Israel as a "Righteous Gentile", he was honored by the Slovak and Israeli governments in the early 1990s when the Church was rededicated through the efforts of the Americans whose ancestors built it in the first place. By the way, the majority are still Greek Catholic...

Believe what you want, but Orthodoxy is equated with Russian chauvinism in modern Slovakia, the behavior of the Communists and the Orthodox in collusion with them following the war have ensured that to be the case for now and the foreseeable future.
I guess this must be the great OCA-ACROD divide.

I don't know how much I can say about Slovakia itself, as it was before Communism fell (but just before).  I didn't go to the Orthodox strongholds (as indicated on the map, based on religious self idnetification in 2000), but I did worship in Bratislava with the local Orthodox (and some soldiers from back East).  I don't think Deacon's coreligionists had a church in Bratislava at the time.

Shortly thereafter, after Communism fell and they government started seizing Orthodox properties to hand over to the Vatican, the people came back with videos on vacation of the folks back home celebrating Divine Liturgy on the lawns, rather to go pray with Deacon Lance's flock in the seized Church.

They haven't changed.  I did know one Romanian who decided he was Ruthenian (ethnically) and went to the Romanian "Church United with Rome Greek Catholic" parish in Chicago.  I'm not sure he ever went to Deacon Lance's church, a consolidated parish in Homer Glen-ironically, the core coming from St. Mary's, the parish that Fr. Peter Semkoff recruited to found SS. Peter and Paul parish, the home parish where not only I converted, but Abp. Job of blessed memory and Metropolitan Tikhon-Many Years!
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« Reply #238 on: July 20, 2013, 04:34:28 PM »

Are you a Slovak? I've never really understood who you ACRODians are ethnically and/or culturally speaking.
LOL. A little ialmisry lead for an avatar and jurisdiction, and Ramstein for a byline.

That's a good question. To be honest, having dealt with a lot of them (and the related OCA) in the US and (Czecho)Slovakia, I haven't see a consensus.  Which is perhaps showing.
Maybe this will help:
RUSYNS OF THE CARPATHIANS: COMPETING AGENDAS OF IDENTITY
http://repository.library.georgetown.edu/bitstream/handle/10822/552816/WiktorekAlexandraChristine.pdf?sequence=1
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« Reply #239 on: July 20, 2013, 05:00:33 PM »

I just wished the ROCOR synod would tell their Priests to interact with other Orthodox. We have 8 parishes here, 7 somewhat regularly interact and help with local Orthodox charities and pan-Orthodox events. The ROCOR parish has (voluntarily) isolated itself and no one really even knows or sees the Priest. I've heard it's similar elsewhere too. I don't understand it.

In DFW, the ROCOR parish is part of all the pan-Orthodox events and even holds some. It is only the Serbians that do not participate.

Here is a documentary about two very ethnically-entrenched ROCOR parishes.
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« Reply #240 on: July 20, 2013, 05:42:50 PM »

This is very unfortunate, especially for the WR. That said, having met Met. Hilarion, I believe HE would only do what HE believes would be right in the eyes of God.

Yet considering all the troubles which various Orthodox jurisdictions have faced while missioning in the West and receiving converts, either in large number or individually, it seems to me as though novices to the Faith are all too often promoted too quickly. While I believe that the orders of those validly ordained with apostolic succession should be recognised when they convert, I believe they should be required to attend some extra form of spiritual retreat before they are received or perhaps made to serve as an assistant priest for a couple of years until the receiving Church can have some greater form of reassurance that the new convert will remain faithful.
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« Reply #241 on: July 21, 2013, 12:14:46 AM »

And by 1930, they had another option: going back to Orthodoxy.  The father of my old priest was told to do just that by his bishop in AH, getting his papers to leave for the new world: "here we have to be katolik, there you do not have to be katolik."

Which is why they all became Orthodox immediately upon getting to America.  Oh wait, none of them did.  It took Latin chauvinism and harassment and several years for that to happen.
A number of them came to America Orthodox: they had been coming home back home in Galicia and Carpathia at least since 1882.  The Metropolitan of Bukowina supplied priests both in the New World and in Galicia (where it was somewhat illegal, but perfectly canonical).  By the outbreak of WWI, the Metropolitanate of Czernowitz was becoming the other half of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, where one of its own was set to succeed the Metropolitan, when WWI and the fall of the Habsburgs resulted in Bucovina being reunited to Romania, and the Ukrainians/Ruthenians were integrated into the Romanian patriarchate-until Stalin and Khrushchev united them to UKraine, reuniting Ukraine and the Ukrainian Church.

In the case at bar, despite the bishops advice, the priest did not take it immediately upon getting to America.  It did take the Latin bishop refusing him because he was married to run home.  But it didn't take him several years to do it.  In fact, it took only a year for our father among the saints Alexis Toth and his parishioners to blaze the trail home in the New World.
Changing your story I see.  First they were told to change when they got to America, now they changed before they came.  The story of Greek Catholics coming to America to become Orthodox is a myth.  They only converted after being treated badly by the Latins.

I knew Bishop Chornock, Father Peter Molchany, Fr. John Dolhy and others who became Orthodox and others, like Fr. Al Matscov (sic) who stayed GC and dozens of immigrants in both camps....the Deacon is correct. The other version of coming to America be become Orthodox is ex post facto rationalization or just plain fiction.
Well, it was rationalized rather quickly.  Fr. Semkoff arrived in 1912, his draft registration in 1917 lists him as a Russian Orthodox priest, as does the American Church Almanac and Year Book of 1917
http://books.google.com/books?id=RZw9AAAAYAAJ&q=Semkoff+Peter&dq=Semkoff+Peter&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fdXqUbG1MM-zrgHPpYGACg&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAg
although the 1920 shows him being a "Greek Catholic Priest"-that might be because of the title "Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic," as he is listed as Pastor of Ascension Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church in Albion Michigan in the American Church Almanac and Year Book of 1928.
http://books.google.com/books?id=9E3OAAAAMAAJ&q=%22+ASCENSION+CHURCH+(Russian+Orthodox+Greek+Catholic)+Austin+Ave.%22+Semkoff&dq=%22+ASCENSION+CHURCH+(Russian+Orthodox+Greek+Catholic)+Austin+Ave.%22+Semkoff&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3NnqUe2oCe7KyQG_h4CICA&sqi=2&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA
The census of 1930 shows his occupation as "Russian Orthodox Priest."
(I learned the above census info. etc. from someone doing Rusyn genealogy and was looking for information).

This might be of interest: "The Austro-German hypocrisy and the Russian orthodox Greek catholic church" published in 1915 by Peter G. Kohanik, Russian Orthodox Catholic Mutual Aid Society of the United States of America
http://books.google.com/books?id=7f81AAAAMAAJ&q=%22Russian+Orthodox+Greek+Catholic%22&dq=%22Russian+Orthodox+Greek+Catholic%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DNvqUaylFcaUrgHZ8oGgBQ&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAg

In the last of Fr. Semkoff's 5 parishes that he founded, SS. Peter and Paul of Chicago, I met numbers of people whose forebares in America returned home to Orthodoxy, as did their relatives in Czechoslovakia (at the time united) separately.

Please note: I did not say he came to America to become Orthodox. Quite the opposite, he was shocked at what his bishop told him.  If the genealogy records are correct, he came to NYC with his father (at time he was a teenager, according to the records.  It was never mentioned to me how young he was when he was ordained).  At first he did not follow the bishop's advice, but like St. Alexis, he learned fast.  And worked fast-in just two decades, he led a number back to Orthodoxy to found five parishes in three states for the Russian Metropolia.

Re the confusion over whether Fr. Semkoff was Greek Catholic in the '20s, if he was at the Albion parish at the time he was referred to as "Greek Catholic," then he was under the Russian Orthodox Metropolia - that parish was founded as an Orthodox parish primarily by Belorussians (with Greeks, Macedonians, Russians, and Ukrainians mixed in) and has always been with the Metropolia or OCA.
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« Reply #242 on: July 21, 2013, 12:21:23 AM »

This is very unfortunate, especially for the WR. That said, having met Met. Hilarion, I believe HE would only do what HE believes would be right in the eyes of God.

Yet considering all the troubles which various Orthodox jurisdictions have faced while missioning in the West and receiving converts, either in large number or individually, it seems to me as though novices to the Faith are all too often promoted too quickly. While I believe that the orders of those validly ordained with apostolic succession should be recognised when they convert, I believe they should be required to attend some extra form of spiritual retreat before they are received or perhaps made to serve as an assistant priest for a couple of years until the receiving Church can have some greater form of reassurance that the new convert will remain faithful.
Would not a valid option be, if they ordained them anyway, is to place them under an experienced priest for several years before sending them out on their own.  This could effectively double the priesthood while at the same time allowing for sufficient training.  I always thought it would be better for a new priest to work with an experienced one for a number of years anyway.
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« Reply #243 on: July 21, 2013, 01:47:47 AM »

And by 1930, they had another option: going back to Orthodoxy.  The father of my old priest was told to do just that by his bishop in AH, getting his papers to leave for the new world: "here we have to be katolik, there you do not have to be katolik."

Which is why they all became Orthodox immediately upon getting to America.  Oh wait, none of them did.  It took Latin chauvinism and harassment and several years for that to happen.

+1.
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« Reply #244 on: July 21, 2013, 01:49:02 AM »

And by 1930, they had another option: going back to Orthodoxy.  The father of my old priest was told to do just that by his bishop in AH, getting his papers to leave for the new world: "here we have to be katolik, there you do not have to be katolik."

Which is why they all became Orthodox immediately upon getting to America.  Oh wait, none of them did.  It took Latin chauvinism and harassment and several years for that to happen.
A number of them came to America Orthodox: they had been coming home back home in Galicia and Carpathia at least since 1882.  The Metropolitan of Bukowina supplied priests both in the New World and in Galicia (where it was somewhat illegal, but perfectly canonical).  By the outbreak of WWI, the Metropolitanate of Czernowitz was becoming the other half of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, where one of its own was set to succeed the Metropolitan, when WWI and the fall of the Habsburgs resulted in Bucovina being reunited to Romania, and the Ukrainians/Ruthenians were integrated into the Romanian patriarchate-until Stalin and Khrushchev united them to UKraine, reuniting Ukraine and the Ukrainian Church.

In the case at bar, despite the bishops advice, the priest did not take it immediately upon getting to America.  It did take the Latin bishop refusing him because he was married to run home.  But it didn't take him several years to do it.  In fact, it took only a year for our father among the saints Alexis Toth and his parishioners to blaze the trail home in the New World.
Changing your story I see.  First they were told to change when they got to America, now they changed before they came.  The story of Greek Catholics coming to America to become Orthodox is a myth.  They only converted after being treated badly by the Latins.

I knew Bishop Chornock, Father Peter Molchany, Fr. John Dolhy and others who became Orthodox and others, like Fr. Al Matscov (sic) who stayed GC and dozens of immigrants in both camps....the Deacon is correct. The other version of coming to America be become Orthodox is ex post facto rationalization or just plain fiction.

It was the arrogant stupidity of the mostly Irish American hierarchy who couldn't stand the dirty folks from East Europe and their "bizarre"customs and their craven enablers in Rome within the Curia who probably knew better in their hearts, but valued counting (both souls and money) above honesty. It was ironic as for two generations before the Slavs arrived "No Irish need Apply"  was common across the North American continent.

+1. Your family was pushed out of the church for no good reason. I'm so sorry.
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« Reply #245 on: July 21, 2013, 01:55:31 AM »

We have a dear friend, Michael, now 85, born and baptized Orthodox in Ambridge, Pa. Before the war the Ambridge Rusyns sent money to build a beautiful Orthodox Church in Svetlice, Slovakia. Michael's family moved back with him in the early 1930's to find only a few American expats at the new Orthodox church while all of the old country relatives attended the ramshackle Greek Catholic parish. Same occurred in Becherov, my mother in laws village nearby. After the war Michael came back to America with his US Citizenship one step ahead of the Russians. He has been active his whole life in the Orthodox church here, is a great benefactor to the Orthodox orphanage in Medzilaborce and is an Archon of the Ecumenical Throne  for recognition of his charity over the years (ALL non Hellenic I have to add.) Don't call him a Russian, and don't insult him with inflated claims about Orthodoxy in Slovakia or in Transcarpathia. You won't like what he would tell you. This coming from a man who is a close friend of the late Orthodox  Bishops Nicholas and Vsevelod (USA) and John (Slovakia) and Fr. Dymitry Sydor of Uzhorod.

As an aside, the wartime Orthodox priest in Svetlice is a hero of the Resistance. A monastic, he risked his life during the Nazi occupation and the Tiso years by saving Jews through the provision of metrical and baptismal records allowing many to survive. Honored in Israel as a "Righteous Gentile", he was honored by the Slovak and Israeli governments in the early 1990s when the Church was rededicated through the efforts of the Americans whose ancestors built it in the first place. By the way, the majority are still Greek Catholic...

Believe what you want, but Orthodoxy is equated with Russian chauvinism in modern Slovakia, the behavior of the Communists and the Orthodox in collusion with them following the war have ensured that to be the case for now and the foreseeable future.

+1. No Greek Catholic bishops in eastern Slovakia went into schism when the Communists told them to, and during the Prague Spring of '68, once they were free again, most of the 'Czechoslovak Orthodox' went back to the Catholic Church where they have remained.
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« Reply #246 on: July 21, 2013, 01:57:21 AM »

Are you a Slovak? I've never really understood who you ACRODians are ethnically and/or culturally speaking.

Greek Catholics in Slovakia = Ruthenian Catholics in America -> ACROD are Rusyns, East Slavs (related to Russians) closely related to Ukrainians but unlike them not nationalistic, never having been a nation-state, and whose immigration to America largely ended with WWI. Here they're Americans now.

Most (60%) of the OCA's Rusyn too (the characters in The Deer Hunter), having left Greek Catholicism because American Catholic bishops treated them badly, like ACROD, but about 30 years earlier, having joined the Russian church, being liturgically russified and often now identifying as Russian. In short, most American Russian Orthodox are indeed Slavs but not Russian.
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« Reply #247 on: July 21, 2013, 02:09:46 AM »

I guess this must be the great OCA-ACROD divide.

It's that they're the same ethnic group, from the same place, but they converted about 30 years apart, one going under the Russian church and being russified; the other going under the Greeks, understandable after the Communist takeover of Russia, plus they just wanted things to stay the same, not to be russified. Since po-nashomu church as they knew it in eastern Slovakia was very Western Catholic, but they saw these things as theirs now, more than Catholic, ACROD remained very Greek Catholic-like for many years (the Greeks left them alone), while the Metropolia/OCA, long under Russian exile bishops, identifies as Russian. Meanwhile, in their Carpathian mountain homeland, Communism wiped out any russophilia.
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« Reply #248 on: July 21, 2013, 02:17:48 AM »

A founder of this board's wife is from Slovakia, having come to America as a little girl, so he got to travel in Eastern Europe, including Transcarpathia, formerly far eastern Slovakia, the part of Ruthenia the Soviets grabbed during WWII and annexed to the Ukraine. He said that, unlike Slovaks, they thought Czechoslovakia was neat and wanted to go back to that. They're Greek Catholic and don't identify as Russian.
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« Reply #249 on: July 21, 2013, 08:54:47 AM »

We have a dear friend, Michael, now 85, born and baptized Orthodox in Ambridge, Pa. Before the war the Ambridge Rusyns sent money to build a beautiful Orthodox Church in Svetlice, Slovakia. Michael's family moved back with him in the early 1930's to find only a few American expats at the new Orthodox church while all of the old country relatives attended the ramshackle Greek Catholic parish. Same occurred in Becherov, my mother in laws village nearby. After the war Michael came back to America with his US Citizenship one step ahead of the Russians. He has been active his whole life in the Orthodox church here, is a great benefactor to the Orthodox orphanage in Medzilaborce and is an Archon of the Ecumenical Throne  for recognition of his charity over the years (ALL non Hellenic I have to add.) Don't call him a Russian, and don't insult him with inflated claims about Orthodoxy in Slovakia or in Transcarpathia. You won't like what he would tell you. This coming from a man who is a close friend of the late Orthodox  Bishops Nicholas and Vsevelod (USA) and John (Slovakia) and Fr. Dymitry Sydor of Uzhorod.

As an aside, the wartime Orthodox priest in Svetlice is a hero of the Resistance. A monastic, he risked his life during the Nazi occupation and the Tiso years by saving Jews through the provision of metrical and baptismal records allowing many to survive. Honored in Israel as a "Righteous Gentile", he was honored by the Slovak and Israeli governments in the early 1990s when the Church was rededicated through the efforts of the Americans whose ancestors built it in the first place. By the way, the majority are still Greek Catholic...

Believe what you want, but Orthodoxy is equated with Russian chauvinism in modern Slovakia, the behavior of the Communists and the Orthodox in collusion with them following the war have ensured that to be the case for now and the foreseeable future.

+1. No Greek Catholic bishops in eastern Slovakia went into schism when the Communists told them to, and during the Prague Spring of '68, once they were free again, most of the 'Czechoslovak Orthodox' went back to the Catholic Church where they have remained.

I was going to add that, a fair number of Orthodox came to the states in 1968 ,the last (small) wave of immigration, including a number of priests looking for work.
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« Reply #250 on: July 21, 2013, 08:57:34 AM »

A founder of this board's wife is from Slovakia, having come to America as a little girl, so he got to travel in Eastern Europe, including Transcarpathia, formerly far eastern Slovakia, the part of Ruthenia the Soviets grabbed during WWII and annexed to the Ukraine. He said that, unlike Slovaks, they thought Czechoslovakia was neat and wanted to go back to that. They're Greek Catholic and don't identify as Russian.

True that the Rusyn areas were not in support of the division of Czechoslovakia in the 90s. But now, 20 years later, the Rusyn minority is more assimilated into Slovak society.
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« Reply #251 on: July 21, 2013, 09:51:32 AM »

This has become the most boring thread imaginable. police
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« Reply #252 on: July 21, 2013, 10:36:08 AM »

This has become the most boring thread imaginable. police
+1
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« Reply #253 on: July 21, 2013, 11:31:50 AM »

One person's boredom can be fascinating to another.  Wink
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« Reply #254 on: July 21, 2013, 12:56:11 PM »

One person's boredom can be fascinating to another.  Wink

Spent three years among Ruthenian Catholics and love 'em, besides of course getting acquainted with their cousins and other Slavs in Orthodoxy. I don't know a lot of prostopinije but I can sing Carju Nebesnyj, Amin', Hospodi Pomiluj, the Apostol, Otce Naš, and Dostojno Jest' to it.

Another name out there: Paul Magocsi, the historian of all things Rusyn, from sheepskin jackets to Easter-egg patterns to dialects, who ironically is neither Catholic nor Orthodox. The secondhand story I was told, reflecting the fights in the group in America: of course the Magocsis originally were Greek Catholic but his granddad argued with and threw out the Greek Catholic priest, and brought in an Orthodox priest. Then he argued with and threw out the Orthodox priest, all of which Magocsi is rather proud of. So Magocsi is nominally Protestant, a non-believer old enough to still habitually go to church; he goes to a mainline church because he likes the music. (I've met someone from a Ukrainian-American Methodist family; I once read somewhere there are more Ruthenian-American Methodists than Ruthenian-American Greek Catholics.)

Another, local story of the fluidity of Greek Catholic identity back in the day, before the Chornock split (ACROD) here and Communism in the old country hardened their Catholic identity (in 20 years I have never met a born Ruthenian Catholic who identified with the Orthodox). Holy Ghost, the first Eastern-rite parish of any kind in Philadelphia, 'doxed in 1912, of course to the Russian metropolia, but changed their mind the next year and are still Catholic. Some parishioners didn't want to go back and started Assumption a few blocks away, now in the OCA (interestingly they didn't 100% russify; you can still hear prostopinije mixed with the standard OCA Russian music). Both parishes are hurting. The second-generation majority have died; the third generation moved away; the old Slavic neighborhood, once an enclave in Italian South Philly, is now a black (probably Protestant) ghetto literally overshadowed by high-rise projects.

Then in America there was arguably the extreme reaction to the old laissez-faire Greek Catholic attitude to Catholic/Orthodox identity, self-latinization taken up a notch: Bishop (later Archbishop) Nicholas Elko in the '50s and '60s, tearing down iconostases. (The irony of my nostalgia, in a way: people then believed in progress; they didn't know it would destroy so much good and not really be progress.) The same guy who dropped the names 'Ruthenian' and 'Greek Catholic' (tainted by the Chornock split?) in favor of 'Byzantine Catholic'. (When I first saw that moniker in a phone book I thought they were vagantes.) He wanted to replace both the traditional Roman Rite and the Byzantine Rite in America with an American Rite he came up with, which I understand was a quirky conservative Novus Ordo type of services. Basically de-ethnicize both ritual groups in America, merge them, and assimilate. He went too far even for the very latinized Ruthenians in America: a number of priests complained to Rome, so in '67 Rome fired him by kicking him upstairs to a Vatican post. He came home to America a few years later, but serving as an auxiliary bishop of the Roman Rite Archdiocese of Cincinnati. So ironically, when Roman authorities were gutting the traditional Roman Rite, a Greek Catholic bishop who had been trying to do the same thing (aggiornamento crap, 'updating'), was de facto fired.

(A lot like how I view conservative Novus Ordo, of which he was a forerunner: he was not a heretic, and admirably anti-Communist, but otherwise a damn fool. I go with natural traditionalism, not revisionism like his.)

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« Reply #255 on: July 21, 2013, 03:18:18 PM »

We have a dear friend, Michael, now 85, born and baptized Orthodox in Ambridge, Pa. Before the war the Ambridge Rusyns sent money to build a beautiful Orthodox Church in Svetlice, Slovakia. Michael's family moved back with him in the early 1930's to find only a few American expats at the new Orthodox church while all of the old country relatives attended the ramshackle Greek Catholic parish. Same occurred in Becherov, my mother in laws village nearby. After the war Michael came back to America with his US Citizenship one step ahead of the Russians. He has been active his whole life in the Orthodox church here, is a great benefactor to the Orthodox orphanage in Medzilaborce and is an Archon of the Ecumenical Throne  for recognition of his charity over the years (ALL non Hellenic I have to add.) Don't call him a Russian, and don't insult him with inflated claims about Orthodoxy in Slovakia or in Transcarpathia. You won't like what he would tell you. This coming from a man who is a close friend of the late Orthodox  Bishops Nicholas and Vsevelod (USA) and John (Slovakia) and Fr. Dymitry Sydor of Uzhorod.

As an aside, the wartime Orthodox priest in Svetlice is a hero of the Resistance. A monastic, he risked his life during the Nazi occupation and the Tiso years by saving Jews through the provision of metrical and baptismal records allowing many to survive. Honored in Israel as a "Righteous Gentile", he was honored by the Slovak and Israeli governments in the early 1990s when the Church was rededicated through the efforts of the Americans whose ancestors built it in the first place. By the way, the majority are still Greek Catholic...

Believe what you want, but Orthodoxy is equated with Russian chauvinism in modern Slovakia, the behavior of the Communists and the Orthodox in collusion with them following the war have ensured that to be the case for now and the foreseeable future.

+1. No Greek Catholic bishops in eastern Slovakia went into schism when the Communists told them to, and during the Prague Spring of '68, once they were free again, most of the 'Czechoslovak Orthodox' went back to the Catholic Church where they have remained.
Most, but not all, left the Catholic Church and submitted again to the Vatican.  But then again, many had been Orthodox before the Communists came.
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« Reply #256 on: July 21, 2013, 03:45:05 PM »

A founder of this board's wife is from Slovakia, having come to America as a little girl, so he got to travel in Eastern Europe, including Transcarpathia, formerly far eastern Slovakia, the part of Ruthenia the Soviets grabbed during WWII and annexed to the Ukraine. He said that, unlike Slovaks, they thought Czechoslovakia was neat and wanted to go back to that. They're Greek Catholic and don't identify as Russian.
Transcarpathia was never far eastern Slovakia.

It was referred to as "Carpathian Russinia" in the Constitution.  On paper it had autonomy with its own Diet and language laws etc. but, like Slovakia, it was run from Prague.

The thing that upset the locals the most was being annexed to Ukraine, rather than being an autonomous republic.  During the Ukraine independence vote, it voted for its own autonomy, which Kiev ignored.  Which is perhaps why the place remains committed to Russia-Moscow is further than Kiev (while in Czechoslovakia, it voted 75% against the use of Ukrainian in school).

The people of my old parish went back and forth (some came in the immigration wave that podkaparska talked about).  They were Orthodox and identified as Russian, although they identified Slovakia as "the old country," not Ukraine or the Russian Republic.
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« Reply #257 on: July 21, 2013, 03:50:57 PM »

We have a dear friend, Michael, now 85, born and baptized Orthodox in Ambridge, Pa. Before the war the Ambridge Rusyns sent money to build a beautiful Orthodox Church in Svetlice, Slovakia. Michael's family moved back with him in the early 1930's to find only a few American expats at the new Orthodox church while all of the old country relatives attended the ramshackle Greek Catholic parish. Same occurred in Becherov, my mother in laws village nearby. After the war Michael came back to America with his US Citizenship one step ahead of the Russians. He has been active his whole life in the Orthodox church here, is a great benefactor to the Orthodox orphanage in Medzilaborce and is an Archon of the Ecumenical Throne  for recognition of his charity over the years (ALL non Hellenic I have to add.) Don't call him a Russian, and don't insult him with inflated claims about Orthodoxy in Slovakia or in Transcarpathia. You won't like what he would tell you. This coming from a man who is a close friend of the late Orthodox  Bishops Nicholas and Vsevelod (USA) and John (Slovakia) and Fr. Dymitry Sydor of Uzhorod.

As an aside, the wartime Orthodox priest in Svetlice is a hero of the Resistance. A monastic, he risked his life during the Nazi occupation and the Tiso years by saving Jews through the provision of metrical and baptismal records allowing many to survive. Honored in Israel as a "Righteous Gentile", he was honored by the Slovak and Israeli governments in the early 1990s when the Church was rededicated through the efforts of the Americans whose ancestors built it in the first place. By the way, the majority are still Greek Catholic...

Believe what you want, but Orthodoxy is equated with Russian chauvinism in modern Slovakia, the behavior of the Communists and the Orthodox in collusion with them following the war have ensured that to be the case for now and the foreseeable future.

+1. No Greek Catholic bishops in eastern Slovakia went into schism when the Communists told them to, and during the Prague Spring of '68, once they were free again, most of the 'Czechoslovak Orthodox' went back to the Catholic Church where they have remained.
Most, but not all, left the Catholic Church and submitted again to the Vatican.  But then again, many had been Orthodox before the Communists came.

Right, your semantic game related to Orthodoxy's true-church claim. Like with George Takei and Teh Gay, enough. We get it. Anyway, as podkarpatska, who unlike you or me has roots in the region and has known more of the people than me (I've known some), said, there are not a whole lot of Orthodox there. You had Russian propaganda around WWI for political reasons and missionizing into the '30s, plus the born-again American expats mad at the Catholic Church funding missions back home. (The Polish National Catholic Church, founded in America for largely the same reason, mistreatment, tried to do the same back in Poland, spectacularly unsuccessfully. Despite the understandable appeal of allowing priests to marry, not just ordaining the married, and the appeal then of vernacular services, most Poles happily have remained Catholic.) Whatever success they had, thanks to Greek Catholic fluidity of church allegiance and russophilism or at least pan-Slavism (pushed by the Russians, so in practice russophilism), the Communists managed to squash, as podkarpatska has described. In people's opinion in Slovakia and the western Ukraine, Orthodox = traitor = Russian collaborator = Soviet collaborator. Some Rusyn-American Orthodox are upfront about that.

Is Sub-Carpathian Rus' on the map still in Slovakia or is it what's been, since the Soviets stole it in WWII, the oblast' of Transcarpathia in the Ukraine?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 04:01:26 PM by The young fogey » Logged

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« Reply #258 on: July 21, 2013, 04:22:04 PM »

Orthodoxy's true-church claim.

I swear like 95% of your posts mention some sort of "true-church claim." I'd expect to see it less, at least for Orthodoxy, since there seem to be enough of us on here that don't make any sort of "EO only are the True Church"-claims.
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« Reply #259 on: July 21, 2013, 04:31:35 PM »

Orthodoxy's true-church claim.

I swear like 95% of your posts mention some sort of "true-church claim." I'd expect to see it less, at least for Orthodoxy, since there seem to be enough of us on here that don't make any sort of "EO only are the True Church"-claims.

What kind of claim you do?
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« Reply #260 on: July 21, 2013, 04:48:51 PM »

Orthodoxy's true-church claim.

I swear like 95% of your posts mention some sort of "true-church claim." I'd expect to see it less, at least for Orthodoxy, since there seem to be enough of us on here that don't make any sort of "EO only are the True Church"-claims.

What kind of claim you do?

Well, I do believe the OO episcopates to be instantiations of the Church for example.
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« Reply #261 on: July 21, 2013, 09:06:07 PM »

Whatever success they had, thanks to Greek Catholic fluidity of church allegiance and russophilism or at least pan-Slavism (pushed by the Russians, so in practice russophilism), the Communists managed to squash, as podkarpatska has described.

In this kind of situation, I'm never sure whether the person actually meant to say "quash", or if they're just being colorful ... you know, like "It was crushed, squashed, pounded down" etc.
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« Reply #262 on: July 21, 2013, 09:15:41 PM »

Whatever success they had, thanks to Greek Catholic fluidity of church allegiance and russophilism or at least pan-Slavism (pushed by the Russians, so in practice russophilism), the Communists managed to squash, as podkarpatska has described.

In this kind of situation, I'm never sure whether the person actually meant to say "quash", or if they're just being colorful ... you know, like "It was crushed, squashed, pounded down" etc.

Being colorful. It works because it means the same thing.
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« Reply #263 on: July 22, 2013, 03:23:03 AM »

Right, your semantic game related to Orthodoxy's true-church claim. Like with George Takei and Teh Gay, enough. We get it.
Evidently not.
[quote author=The young fogey link=topic=52376.msg956241#msg956241 date=1374436257
Anyway, as podkarpatska, who unlike you or me has roots in the region and has known more of the people than me (I've known some), said, there are not a whole lot of Orthodox there. You had Russian propaganda around WWI for political reasons and missionizing into the '30s, plus the born-again American expats mad at the Catholic Church funding missions back home.[/quote]
You are skipping the whole Russophilia movement (which the Czar dealt a heavy death blow with the heavy hand of those he put in charge during the occupation), a half century and more before.
Then there are those who dodged the "Union."  When Emperor Joseph came to survey his new gotten gains (at the expense of Poland(-Lithuania) in 1785 he was surprised by a delegation in Lemberg/L'viv of Orthodox petitioning for a diploma granting the right to build a Church.  The direct result, St. George/Nicholas.
Then there are those who went next door to Bukowian.  When its Metropolia gained autocephaly in 1873 it contained around 200,000 Orthodox Ruthenians. That's not counting its crypto-Orthodox members in Galicia (and elsewhere) the pool that the Czar recruited for his spectacularly successful campaign to bring the Chełm eparchy back to Orthodoxy-the friction engendered by Polish oppression in Galicia no doubt helping.
(The Polish National Catholic Church, founded in America for largely the same reason, mistreatment, tried to do the same back in Poland, spectacularly unsuccessfully. Despite the understandable appeal of allowing priests to marry, not just ordaining the married, and the appeal then of vernacular services, most Poles happily have remained Catholic.)
Helped in no little part by the marriage of the Second Polish Republic and the Vatican in the Warsaw Concordat, under which the authorities persecuted, harassed and restricted not only the Orthodox but also Metropolitan Sheptytskyi and his flock.  Under that regime, the PNCC never gained legal recognition.
Whatever success they had, thanks to Greek Catholic fluidity of church allegiance and russophilism or at least pan-Slavism (pushed by the Russians, so in practice russophilism), the Communists managed to squash, as podkarpatska has described. In people's opinion in Slovakia and the western Ukraine, Orthodox = traitor = Russian collaborator = Soviet collaborator.

And yet Western Ukraine itself remains overwhelmingly Orthodox: in only three oblasts (Lviv, Ivan-Franko, Ternopil-in that order: the Orthodox nearly equal the UGCC there the last, and close in the middle one) does the UGCC have a majority of the population.

They have come up before:
Quote
But in this whole controversy the Moscow Patriarchate stubbornly does not want to notice one very important detail. Speaking of “the defeat of three Orthodox dioceses” conceals the true statistics of Orthodoxy in Galicia. And they are really impressive. Here is the number of Orthodox parishes: in Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast there are about 462 parishes (34 UOC-MP, 279 UOC-KP, 149 UAOC), in Lviv Oblast, respectively, 912 (69 UOC-MP, 460 UOC-KP, 383 UAOC) in Ternopil Oblast 663 parishes (125 UOC-MP, 227 UOC-KP, 261 UAOC). For comparison, take the Donetsk Oblast (one of the largest in Ukraine), which has 757 Orthodox communities, or Zhytomyr with 848 parishes and finally Odessa with 684 Orthodox parishes. With so many parishes can there be talk about the defeat of Orthodoxy in Galicia? Statistics show that such centers of “canonical Orthodoxy” as Donetsk or Odesa do not exceed the number of communities “defeated” in the Lviv Oblast, where there are 912 communities.
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/expert_thought/open_theme/44340/
This was claimed in 2011, at the same time UGCC was claiming 1,495 in the L'viv oblast, 650 in Ivano-Frankivsk (including those in its Kolomyia-Chernivtsi eparchy, which covers over half the territory of the oblast and goes beyond it into another stronghold of Orthodoxy in West UKraine in the days of the Habsburgs, the Chernivtsi oblast), and 717 in Ternopil (including the totals of its Ternopil-Zboriv and Buchach, although they cover the Khmelnytskyi oblast as well). That gives the UOC 5% in the L'viv oblast, more than 5% in the Ivano-Franivsk, and well over 17% in the Ternopil Oblast, of the UGCC's parishes, but if one counts those who reject the UGCC and prefer Orthodoxy (even in an uncanonical form), the line up comes to Orthodoxy having 61% in the L'viv oblast, more than 71% in the Ivano-Frankivsk oblast, and well over 93% of the number of UGCC parishes in its strongholds. Or perhaps to simplify, the supporters of Orthodoxy are only outnumbered by the UGCC 2 to 1 in the L'viv oblast (if we ignore every other religious community in the oblast that would mean 68% UGCC 32% Orthodox), and nearly 1 to 1 in the Ivano-Franivsk (59% UGCC 41% Orthodox) and in Ternopil (52% UGCC 48% Orthodox).  Even putting the Vatican's Latins in does not appreciably change the picture: it would make it 64% of L'viv the Vatican's flock 36% Orthodox; Ivano-Franivsk <60% versus >40% and Ternopil  <55% versus >45%.

One wonders what the numbers would be in the Vatican's stronghold in West Ukraine were it not that " In [the] people's opinion in...the western Ukraine, Orthodox = traitor = Russian collaborator = Soviet collaborator."

The three oblasts had a combined population of 5,013,098 in 2010: if you put all the 4,350,735 the UGCC claimed, according to the Vatican, throughout the world, in those three oblasts, that would make it have only 87% of the population.  If you just put all of the 3,710.729 the UGCC claimed, according to the Vatican, throughout Ukraine, in just those three oblasts, that would make it have only 74% of the population.  If you just put all of the 3,367,112 the UGCC claimed, according to the Vatican, for the L'viv Archeparchy, and the Ivano-Frankivsk, Ternopil-Zborkiv, Sambir-Drohobych, Sokol-Zhovka, Stryi, Kolomyia-Chernivitsi and Buchach eparchies-which go beyond the three oblasts of the Vatican's stronghold and into "Orthodox territory"-in just those three oblasts, it would have only 67% of the population.

To get a clearer picture, that 3,367,112 actually live among 7,248,414 (the actual total of population of all the oblasts-all in West Ukraine-that the UGCC claims in these eparchies), i.e. only 47%.  Throw in the rest of West Ukraine that the UGCC-or, perhaps better put, all of West Ukraine outside of Zakarpattia, the Orthodox stronghold (despite the best efforts of both the 1st and 2nd Polish Republics: it still serves as the stronghold across the border in the Third Polish Republic) of Volhynia-so foreign to the UGCC it claims to rule it by an exarch in Lutsk, and it falls to less than 36% of 9,439,213-the 2,317 its Exarch claims not boosting its standing.

Btw, the three oblasts stand out in other ways, like local elections:

On L’viv, and the claimed dominance of the UGCC, has come up before:
Quote
This bond was forcibly dissolved in 1946 by the Soviet authorities and the Roman Catholic community was forced out by the expulsion of the Polish population. Since 1989, religious life in Lviv has experienced a revival.
Until 2005 Lviv was the only city with two Catholic Cardinals: Lubomyr Husar (Byzantine Rite) and Marian Jaworski (Latin Rite).
Lviv is the seat of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Lviv, the centre of the Roman Catholic Church in Ukraine and until 21 August 2005 was the centre of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. About 35 per cent of religious buildings belong to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, 11.5 per cent to the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, 9 per cent to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church – Kiev Patriarchate and 6 per cent to the Roman Catholic Church.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv#Monuments_in_Lviv
Since that all adds up to 61.5%, leaving 38.5% of religious buildings. Who has them?  The Armenians are not that numerous. As the article goes on to state, the once great community of Jews in Lviv has been wipped out, so they can't be making up the 38.5%.  The article doesn't mention Protestants at all...do they even register their religious buildings? Can they?  Since Islam, Buddhism etc. haven't made a dent among the masses of Lviv, that only leaves the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox, i.e. UOC-Moscow Patriarchate, to take up the bulk.  Is that why the 38.5% are not labeled?

Some Rusyn-American Orthodox are upfront about that.
Perhaps the Carpatho-Russians are not, because the "Union" they left remains a minority in West Ukraine, its stronghold.

Is Sub-Carpathian Rus on the map still in Slovakia or is it what's been, since the Soviets stole it in WWII, the oblast' of Transcarpathia in the Ukraine?
You mean, that Ukraine "stole" now, don't you? Like the rest of West Ukraine (outside of the Khmelnyskyi oblast) that Ukraine has because of Stalin and Khrushchev. No?

If one put all the 646,243 that the Ruthenian "sui juris," according to the Vatican, claims, and put them in the Zakarpattia oblast's 1,246,323, that would make have just half (<52%).  Use the 380,000 figure its Mukacheve eparchy uses, and it drops to 30%.  That leaves a lot of room for 'traitors" "Russian/Soviet-if you make the distinction-collaborators" for the Orthodox.
Entry courtesy of Encyclopedia of Rusyn History and Culture
http://www.rusyn.org/relmukachevo.html
gives 289 parishes in Mukachveo in 1949
its official website claims
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?rlz=1T4TSHB_enUS238US238&hl=en&q=cache:Vv36CB4mfkAJ:http://www.mgce.uz.ua/ipost.php?id=1&lang_id=2+greek+catholic+eparchy+of+mukachevo+parishes&ct=clnk
440 churches, 5 monasteries and 2 convents.
and this interesting paragraph:
Quote
At present Orthodox Church (under the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate that has never been present in the history of Transcarpathia until the 20th century) in Transcarpathia has over 500 parish communities, 2 eparchies and more than 40 monasteries. Besides 260 of our former church buildings Orthodoxies possess great number of churches built in-between two World Wars and also a significant number of new churches that have been built since 1991.
besides the lie that the jurisdiction of Moscow had never been present in the history of Transcarpathia until the 20th century-it was, for one thing, under the jurisdiction of Isidore of Kiev, who was resident at Moscow-it does at least include mention "great number of Churches built in-between two World Wars," i.e. those formed by the movement of Return to Orthodoxy before 1946, an at least partial (and rare) admition that not all parishes in West Ukraine returned to Orthodoxy only in 1946.

Btw-any reason why the UGCC cannot have parishes in the Zakarpattia oblast?  Any reason why the Ruthian "sui juris" cannot have any in the other oblasts of Ukraine?

Put them altogether, the total population of West Ukraine (not including the Zhytymyr and Vinnytsia oblasts that are sometimes included, but not in the UGCC’s divisions for West Ukraine) 10,685,536 could contain all the souls that the UGCC and Ruthenian sui juris claim throughout the world-4,996,978-and it leave the Vatican with only 47% of West Ukraine.  Plenty of room for "traitors," "Russian collaborators" and "Soviet collaborators."  Limit it to those the UGCC and Ruthian "sui juris" claim for West Ukraine-3,749,429-and it falls to 35%  Throw in the 341,300 they claim East in Ukraine, and it rises only to 38%.  Even if only threw in all the Latins that have been claimed for the Vatican for all of the Ukraien-whether the seemingly high 1,000, 000 or the absurd claim for 4,000,000-that would raise it only to 44% to the absurd 73% of the population in the Vatican’s stronghold of West Ukraine.  So on the Vatican’s own figures (and fantasies), it can claim only 35%, to the 44% best case scenario (all the UGCC and Ruthenian “sui juris” with the highest sane estimate of their Latin coreligionist  that are claimed in All Ukraine, living in just West Ukraine) to the absurd (the insane estimate for those Latins) absolute ceiling of <76% of West Ukraine.  This putting of all the Vatican’s Ukrainian eggs in the one basket of the 8 oblasts of West(ernmost) Ukraine leaves 100% of the 35,254,284 in the East for “traitors,” “Russian collaborators” and “Soviet collaborators,” and >24%-56%-65% of the population in West itself being potential “traitors,” “Russian collaborators” and “Soviet collaborators.”

Fact is, the only place that UGCC is position to promote such goofy ideas of their neighbors is only the L’viv oblast (which the UGCC divides into its L’viv Archeparchy, and its Sambir-Drohobych, Sokol-Zhovka and Stryi eparchies).  And even there, the UGCC claims, according to the Vatican, 1,860544, or 73% of the total population.  If one goes to the Ivano-Frankivsk oblast and include all that the UGCC, according to the Vatican, claims for its Ivano-Frankivsk and Kolomyia-Chernivtsi eparchy (although the latter claims the Chernivtsi oblast too), 843,218, it means it only has 61% of I.F.  And in Ternopil, if one puts all 666,100 that  that the UGCC, according to the Vatican, claims for its Ternopil-Zboriv and Buchach eparties (although they also claim more populous Khmelnytskyi oblast) in that one oblast, it would also claim only 61% of the populace.  In the nearby Zakarpattia oblast, the Vatican does not list any for the UGCC, but lists those of its Ruthenians, only 30% of the population.  That’s it for its core:30-73%, surrounded by four other oblasts in West Ukraine with nearly 100% (the exact number is 4,423,798 of 4,426,115) potential “traitors,” “Russian collaborators” and “Soviet collabators,” with a potential Fifth Column in the Vatican’s three oblasts of 27%-70% of the population of the Vatican’s stronghold.

How’s that for boring?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 03:32:16 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #264 on: July 22, 2013, 09:35:30 AM »

So the western Ukraine's more Russian Orthodox than I thought? OK, fine. Could be due to the Soviets moving Great Russians there, as happened in the Baltics, in some cases a huge minority there (issue: Russians born there, now not welcome; not fair!).

Tangent: Transdniester should either be annexed to Russia or be recognized as the independent Russian country it is. It's not Romanian so it's not Moldova, and I don't think they want to be in the independent Ukraine either. I understand the Transdniestrians now have Russian passports. Interesting place, Transdniester. They miss the USSR, understandably; being a superpower was cool. But they're not really Communist, just good old-fashioned nationalists. They're Russian Orthodox; Tiraspol, their capital, has a cathedral. Backstory: like how the USSR handed the Crimea over from Russia to the Ukraine, never anticipating Ukrainian independence, it gave Transdniester, historically part of the Ukraine, to Moldova. Then Moldova became independent and the Russian majority in Transdniester didn't want to go along, being a minority in a Romanian country.

My guesses: Moldova will join Romania and Byelorussia will rejoin Russia; the only issues are now the conditions just aren't right. My sources: talking to a Romanian and to an American married to a Byelorussian who's been there many times. Also from him: Byelorussia doesn't pretend it's free but in practice they are; Russians like strongmen and Lukashenko's been around so long, since Soviet times, because the Byelorussians like him. Until recently, ditto Transdniester; same leader from Soviet times.

Most of the Ukraine is Russian. America's been trying to screw around with the country, further distancing it from Russia. It backed the Orange Revolution (Viktor Yushchenko) and Yushchenko's Kiev Patriarchate vs. the legitimate Orthodox church in the Ukraine, the Russian Orthodox Church. It's as if Russia egged on California to secede from the Union and backed the new government, and pushed California's Catholics to break with Rome. No wonder Putin's angry. (By the way, California probably could make it as an independent country.) I've known both Greek Catholic WWII refugees from Galicia, Ukrainian in spades, and post-Soviet immigrants from Kharkov who didn't want to be Ukrainian; they were Russians.

See, I'm both Catholic and pro-Russian, as my regular readers know.
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« Reply #265 on: July 22, 2013, 09:46:33 AM »

Lukashenko's been around so long, since Soviet times,

Seriously?

Quote
the legitimate Orthodox church in the Ukraine, the Russian Orthodox Church.

Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #266 on: July 22, 2013, 09:51:21 AM »

This IS getting boring.   Smiley
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« Reply #267 on: July 22, 2013, 09:58:25 AM »

Allow me to now tell you the history of the Latvian Orthodox Church in the 16th century...

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« Reply #268 on: July 22, 2013, 10:27:51 AM »

Quote
ditto Transdniester; same leader from Soviet times


Uh, no..... the president of Pridnestrovie from the end of the USSR, Igor Smirnov (no joke!), was, like Lukashenko, the head of an industrial concern who used that position to wriggle into politics as things were falling apart. Their current president, Yevgeny Shevchuk (45 years old), actually beat Smirnov for the position in a 2011 election that confused everyone by being pretty free and fair.... They still have those nifty hammers and sickles on their money, though.
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« Reply #269 on: July 22, 2013, 10:32:31 AM »

Allow me to now tell you the history of the Latvian Orthodox Church in the 16th century...



That nasty, unfunny 'Seinfeld' show: Jews telling put-down jokes about Slavs. Yawn.
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