Right, your semantic game related to Orthodoxy's true-church claim. Like with George Takei and Teh Gay, enough. We get it.
[quote author=The young fogey link=topic=52376.msg956241#msg956241 date=1374436257
Anyway, as podkarpatska, who unlike you or me has roots in the region and has known more of the people than me (I've known some), said, there are not a whole lot of Orthodox there. You had Russian propaganda around WWI for political reasons and missionizing into the '30s, plus the born-again American expats mad at the Catholic Church funding missions back home.[/quote]
You are skipping the whole Russophilia movement (which the Czar dealt a heavy death blow with the heavy hand of those he put in charge during the occupation), a half century and more before.
Then there are those who dodged the "Union." When Emperor Joseph came to survey his new gotten gains (at the expense of Poland(-Lithuania) in 1785 he was surprised by a delegation in Lemberg/L'viv of Orthodox petitioning for a diploma granting the right to build a Church. The direct result, St. George/Nicholas.
Then there are those who went next door to Bukowian. When its Metropolia gained autocephaly in 1873 it contained around 200,000 Orthodox Ruthenians. That's not counting its crypto-Orthodox members in Galicia (and elsewhere) the pool that the Czar recruited for his spectacularly successful campaign to bring the Chełm eparchy back to Orthodoxy-the friction engendered by Polish oppression in Galicia no doubt helping.
(The Polish National Catholic Church, founded in America for largely the same reason, mistreatment, tried to do the same back in Poland, spectacularly unsuccessfully. Despite the understandable appeal of allowing priests to marry, not just ordaining the married, and the appeal then of vernacular services, most Poles happily have remained Catholic.)
Helped in no little part by the marriage of the Second Polish Republic and the Vatican in the Warsaw Concordat, under which the authorities persecuted, harassed and restricted not only the Orthodox but also Metropolitan Sheptytskyi and his flock. Under that regime, the PNCC never gained legal recognition.
Whatever success they had, thanks to Greek Catholic fluidity of church allegiance and russophilism or at least pan-Slavism (pushed by the Russians, so in practice russophilism), the Communists managed to squash, as podkarpatska has described. In people's opinion in Slovakia and the western Ukraine, Orthodox = traitor = Russian collaborator = Soviet collaborator.
And yet Western Ukraine itself remains overwhelmingly Orthodox: in only three oblasts (Lviv, Ivan-Franko, Ternopil-in that order: the Orthodox nearly equal the UGCC there the last, and close in the middle one) does the UGCC have a majority of the population.
They have come up before:
But in this whole controversy the Moscow Patriarchate stubbornly does not want to notice one very important detail. Speaking of “the defeat of three Orthodox dioceses” conceals the true statistics of Orthodoxy in Galicia. And they are really impressive. Here is the number of Orthodox parishes: in Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast there are about 462 parishes (34 UOC-MP, 279 UOC-KP, 149 UAOC), in Lviv Oblast, respectively, 912 (69 UOC-MP, 460 UOC-KP, 383 UAOC) in Ternopil Oblast 663 parishes (125 UOC-MP, 227 UOC-KP, 261 UAOC). For comparison, take the Donetsk Oblast (one of the largest in Ukraine), which has 757 Orthodox communities, or Zhytomyr with 848 parishes and finally Odessa with 684 Orthodox parishes. With so many parishes can there be talk about the defeat of Orthodoxy in Galicia? Statistics show that such centers of “canonical Orthodoxy” as Donetsk or Odesa do not exceed the number of communities “defeated” in the Lviv Oblast, where there are 912 communities.http://risu.org.ua/en/index/expert_thought/open_theme/44340/
This was claimed in 2011, at the same time UGCC was claiming 1,495 in the L'viv oblast, 650 in Ivano-Frankivsk (including those in its Kolomyia-Chernivtsi eparchy, which covers over half the territory of the oblast and goes beyond it into another stronghold of Orthodoxy in West UKraine in the days of the Habsburgs, the Chernivtsi oblast), and 717 in Ternopil (including the totals of its Ternopil-Zboriv and Buchach, although they cover the Khmelnytskyi oblast as well). That gives the UOC 5% in the L'viv oblast, more than 5% in the Ivano-Franivsk, and well over 17% in the Ternopil Oblast, of the UGCC's parishes, but if one counts those who reject the UGCC and prefer Orthodoxy (even in an uncanonical form), the line up comes to Orthodoxy having 61% in the L'viv oblast, more than 71% in the Ivano-Frankivsk oblast, and well over 93% of the number of UGCC parishes in its strongholds. Or perhaps to simplify, the supporters of Orthodoxy are only outnumbered by the UGCC 2 to 1 in the L'viv oblast (if we ignore every other religious community in the oblast that would mean 68% UGCC 32% Orthodox), and nearly 1 to 1 in the Ivano-Franivsk (59% UGCC 41% Orthodox) and in Ternopil (52% UGCC 48% Orthodox). Even putting the Vatican's Latins in does not appreciably change the picture: it would make it 64% of L'viv the Vatican's flock 36% Orthodox; Ivano-Franivsk <60% versus >40% and Ternopil <55% versus >45%.
One wonders what the numbers would be in the Vatican's stronghold in West Ukraine were it not that " In [the] people's opinion in...the western Ukraine, Orthodox = traitor = Russian collaborator = Soviet collaborator."
The three oblasts had a combined population of 5,013,098 in 2010: if you put all the 4,350,735 the UGCC claimed, according to the Vatican, throughout the world, in those three oblasts, that would make it have only 87% of the population. If you just put all of the 3,710.729 the UGCC claimed, according to the Vatican, throughout Ukraine, in just those three oblasts, that would make it have only 74% of the population. If you just put all of the 3,367,112 the UGCC claimed, according to the Vatican, for the L'viv Archeparchy, and the Ivano-Frankivsk, Ternopil-Zborkiv, Sambir-Drohobych, Sokol-Zhovka, Stryi, Kolomyia-Chernivitsi and Buchach eparchies-which go beyond the three oblasts of the Vatican's stronghold and into "Orthodox territory"-in just those three oblasts, it would have only 67% of the population.
To get a clearer picture, that 3,367,112 actually live among 7,248,414 (the actual total of population of all the oblasts-all in West Ukraine-that the UGCC claims in these eparchies), i.e. only 47%. Throw in the rest of West Ukraine that the UGCC-or, perhaps better put, all of West Ukraine outside of Zakarpattia, the Orthodox stronghold (despite the best efforts of both the 1st and 2nd Polish Republics: it still serves as the stronghold across the border in the Third Polish Republic) of Volhynia-so foreign to the UGCC it claims to rule it by an exarch in Lutsk, and it falls to less than 36% of 9,439,213-the 2,317 its Exarch claims not boosting its standing.
Btw, the three oblasts stand out in other ways, like local elections:
On L’viv, and the claimed dominance of the UGCC, has come up before:
This bond was forcibly dissolved in 1946 by the Soviet authorities and the Roman Catholic community was forced out by the expulsion of the Polish population. Since 1989, religious life in Lviv has experienced a revival.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv#Monuments_in_Lviv
Until 2005 Lviv was the only city with two Catholic Cardinals: Lubomyr Husar (Byzantine Rite) and Marian Jaworski (Latin Rite).
Lviv is the seat of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Lviv, the centre of the Roman Catholic Church in Ukraine and until 21 August 2005 was the centre of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. About 35 per cent of religious buildings belong to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, 11.5 per cent to the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, 9 per cent to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church – Kiev Patriarchate and 6 per cent to the Roman Catholic Church.
Since that all adds up to 61.5%, leaving 38.5% of religious buildings. Who has them? The Armenians are not that numerous. As the article goes on to state, the once great community of Jews in Lviv has been wipped out, so they can't be making up the 38.5%. The article doesn't mention Protestants at all...do they even register their religious buildings? Can they? Since Islam, Buddhism etc. haven't made a dent among the masses of Lviv, that only leaves the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox, i.e. UOC-Moscow Patriarchate, to take up the bulk. Is that why the 38.5% are not labeled?
Some Rusyn-American Orthodox are upfront about that.
Perhaps the Carpatho-Russians are not, because the "Union" they left remains a minority in West Ukraine, its stronghold.
Is Sub-Carpathian Rus on the map still in Slovakia or is it what's been, since the Soviets stole it in WWII, the oblast' of Transcarpathia in the Ukraine?
You mean, that Ukraine "stole" now, don't you? Like the rest of West Ukraine (outside of the Khmelnyskyi oblast) that Ukraine has because of Stalin and Khrushchev. No?
If one put all the 646,243 that the Ruthenian "sui juris," according to the Vatican, claims, and put them in the Zakarpattia oblast's 1,246,323, that would make have just half (<52%). Use the 380,000 figure its Mukacheve eparchy uses, and it drops to 30%. That leaves a lot of room for 'traitors" "Russian/Soviet-if you make the distinction-collaborators" for the Orthodox.
Entry courtesy of Encyclopedia of Rusyn History and Culture
gives 289 parishes in Mukachveo in 1949
its official website claims
440 churches, 5 monasteries and 2 convents.
and this interesting paragraph:
At present Orthodox Church (under the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate that has never been present in the history of Transcarpathia until the 20th century) in Transcarpathia has over 500 parish communities, 2 eparchies and more than 40 monasteries. Besides 260 of our former church buildings Orthodoxies possess great number of churches built in-between two World Wars and also a significant number of new churches that have been built since 1991. besides the lie that the jurisdiction of Moscow had never been present in the history of Transcarpathia until the 20th century-it was, for one thing, under the jurisdiction of Isidore of Kiev, who was resident at Moscow-it does at least include mention "great number of Churches built in-between two World Wars," i.e. those formed by the movement of Return to Orthodoxy before 1946, an at least partial (and rare) admition that not all parishes in West Ukraine returned to Orthodoxy only in 1946.
Btw-any reason why the UGCC cannot have parishes in the Zakarpattia oblast? Any reason why the Ruthian "sui juris" cannot have any in the other oblasts of Ukraine?
Put them altogether, the total population of West Ukraine (not including the Zhytymyr and Vinnytsia oblasts that are sometimes included, but not in the UGCC’s divisions for West Ukraine) 10,685,536 could contain all the souls that the UGCC and Ruthenian sui juris claim throughout the world-4,996,978-and it leave the Vatican with only 47% of West Ukraine. Plenty of room for "traitors," "Russian collaborators" and "Soviet collaborators." Limit it to those the UGCC and Ruthian "sui juris" claim for West Ukraine-3,749,429-and it falls to 35% Throw in the 341,300 they claim East in Ukraine, and it rises only to 38%. Even if only threw in all the Latins that have been claimed for the Vatican for all of the Ukraien-whether the seemingly high 1,000, 000 or the absurd claim for 4,000,000-that would raise it only to 44% to the absurd 73% of the population in the Vatican’s stronghold of West Ukraine. So on the Vatican’s own figures (and fantasies), it can claim only 35%, to the 44% best case scenario (all the UGCC and Ruthenian “sui juris” with the highest sane estimate of their Latin coreligionist that are claimed in All Ukraine, living in just West Ukraine) to the absurd (the insane estimate for those Latins) absolute ceiling of <76% of West Ukraine. This putting of all the Vatican’s Ukrainian eggs in the one basket of the 8 oblasts of West(ernmost) Ukraine leaves 100% of the 35,254,284 in the East for “traitors,” “Russian collaborators” and “Soviet collaborators,” and >24%-56%-65% of the population in West itself being potential “traitors,” “Russian collaborators” and “Soviet collaborators.”
Fact is, the only place that UGCC is position to promote such goofy ideas of their neighbors is only the L’viv oblast (which the UGCC divides into its L’viv Archeparchy, and its Sambir-Drohobych, Sokol-Zhovka and Stryi eparchies). And even there, the UGCC claims, according to the Vatican, 1,860544, or 73% of the total population. If one goes to the Ivano-Frankivsk oblast and include all that the UGCC, according to the Vatican, claims for its Ivano-Frankivsk and Kolomyia-Chernivtsi eparchy (although the latter claims the Chernivtsi oblast too), 843,218, it means it only has 61% of I.F. And in Ternopil, if one puts all 666,100 that that the UGCC, according to the Vatican, claims for its Ternopil-Zboriv and Buchach eparties (although they also claim more populous Khmelnytskyi oblast) in that one oblast, it would also claim only 61% of the populace. In the nearby Zakarpattia oblast, the Vatican does not list any for the UGCC, but lists those of its Ruthenians, only 30% of the population. That’s it for its core:30-73%, surrounded by four other oblasts in West Ukraine with nearly 100% (the exact number is 4,423,798 of 4,426,115) potential “traitors,” “Russian collaborators” and “Soviet collabators,” with a potential Fifth Column in the Vatican’s three oblasts of 27%-70% of the population of the Vatican’s stronghold.
How’s that for boring?