Author Topic: GÇÿEnlightenedGÇÖ Europe turning even uglier as Jew hatred spirals out of control  (Read 7487 times)

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Offline Nacho

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http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0105/euro_antisem.php3

By Matthew Schofield

 JewishWorldReview.com |

PARIS — For the past four years   —   as friends erased "Dirty Jew" graffiti from their office plaques and her French-born daughter puzzled over "go back where you belong" comments from strangers on the street   —   Evelyne Chiche has spent a piece of each day wondering if she was living in the wrong country.

This spring, the 62-year-old Jewish radio host plans to move to Miami. "I think it's important for my grandchildren here that I move, to provide them with a safe place should they need to get away," she said, waiting until a nearby businessman left the restaurant before talking about being Jewish. "France has changed."

Today, 27 world leaders   —   a king and queen, presidents and prime ministers   —   will gather in Poland to mark the 60th anniversary of the liberation of the Auschwitz death camp, where 1 million people, mostly Jews, were murdered.

But as the world focuses on the past, an increasing number of European Jews are concerned, to quote Sammy Ghozlan, a retired Calais police chief who now investigates anti-Semitic crimes, that "After decades of peace, the old taboos against anti-Semitism are broken. There is no future here for a Jew." Nobody maintains that Europe is again suffering the kind of hatred that gave rise to Auschwitz and other death camps that claimed 6 million Jews in Adolf Hitler's mad rush to his "final solution" to the "Jewish problem."

But the rise in anti-Semitism, chronicled in upward trend lines of European reports on attacks and threats against Jews, has prompted open concern in a continent whose history, from the Spanish Inquisition and medieval ghettos to the Dreyfuss affair and Hitler's rise, is riven with attacks on Jews. In the past few months a Jewish school has been firebombed in suburban Paris, Jewish gravestones have been painted with swastikas in Germany, France and Russia, and Jews have been verbally abused, spat on and beaten in England and France.

Rabbi Abraham Cooper of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles, an international Jewish human-rights organization, calls the wave of violence "the largest onslaught against European synagogues and Jewish schools since Kristallnacht," the night in 1938 when Nazi sympathizers stormed the shops and homes of Jews throughout Germany, smashing property and beating people. Nearly 100 Jews were killed.

This week, leaders throughout Europe have taken pains to use the anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz as a pledge not to forget or repeat the atrocities. On Tuesday, German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder told a gathering of Holocaust survivors, "Never again should anti-Semites succeed in haunting and hurting Jewish citizens and bringing shame over our nation."

Still, Deidre Berger, the director of the American Jewish Council in Berlin, admits to an eerie feeling as she tracks studies from around the continent that show rising attacks and threats against Jews. She speaks in an office that's protected by three sets of security doors.

"The medieval stereotypes of Jews   —   controlling, bloodthirsty, vengeful, unscrupulous   —   are back," she said.

Why anti-Semitism is growing is open to debate. Ghozlan, who grew up in the Paris suburbs and founded an organization to track anti-Semitic attacks, traces the rise to the Palestinian uprising against Israel that began four years ago. He also thinks that part of the rise is demographic: Arab immigrants now make up about 10 percent of the French population.

Berger echoed Ghozlan and other workers who track anti-Semitism across the continent in saying the Palestinian uprising had fueled anti-Semitism, particularly among leftist political parties. She finds that trend especially worrisome, since it broadens the anti-Semitic base from its traditional repository among neo-Nazi and neo-nationalist movements.

What began as a pro-Palestinian movement turned into an anti-Israel movement then became anti-Jewish, she said.

"The left and the right of the political spectrum can't be divorced from the mainstream," she said. "When the center is so strongly anti-Israel, it gives license to the extremes."

There are no official statistics on what percentage of anti-Semitic acts have been committed by ethnic Arabs. In France, for example, it's illegal even officially to quantify the population by ethnic categories. Comprehensive European figures are also difficult to come by. Figures collected by the European Monitoring Center on Racism and Xenophobia, the European Union's clearinghouse for data on the subject, show an uptick in attacks since 2000, though the most recent report contains comprehensive statistics only through 2002.

Tracking anti-Semitism also is complicated because each country has a different way of collecting statistics and a different way of defining an anti-Semitic crime. For example, uttering the words "the Jews should be gassed" is a crime in Germany, while in Belgium the threshold is much higher.

Still, the trend seems clear. In Germany, according to statistics from the Federal Office for Internal Security, crimes "with an anti-Semitic background" grew from 817 in 1999 to 1,334 in 2002. More ominous may be the increase in the number of crimes German police described as violent: from 16 percent of the total in 1999 to 28 percent in 2002.

In Belgium, police recorded a 72 percent increase in anti-Semitic acts from 2000 to 2002, from 36 to 62. The Netherlands reported 46 cases of anti-Semitic violence in 2002.

Nowhere is the trend more visible than in France, where numbers from the Interior Ministry show that anti-Semitic acts   —   attacks and threats   —   reached a high of 1,513 in 2004, up from 593 the previous year. And Jewish groups say most anti-Semitic acts aren't reported.

Ghozlan said it was understandable that France would be the focus of Europe's anti-Semitic tensions. It's home to both Europe's largest Jewish population, 600,000, and its largest Muslim population, about 6 million.

French President Jacques Chirac speaks urgently about the need to fight anti-Semitism and has formed high-level committees to study it. He's said there's no need for Jews to leave France.

Yet concern remains high among many Jews that anti-Semitism is growing faster than officials are willing to acknowledge.

Ghozlan founded the Bureau Against Anti-Semitism in France in the fall of 2001 and began logging incidents that the police hadn't categorized as anti-Semitic. When he began, he figured it would be a short-lived diversion. But more than three years into it, he can't see the workload lessening.

"In the beginning, buildings were the victims," he said. "So security was increased, and the buildings are fortresses now. But people   —   on the Metro (subway), in school, at work, on the sidewalk   —   are not safe, and the phone calls come every day."

Sylvie Rasset, a lifelong Parisian, is another one who worries. Last April, her 17-year-old son was riding a city bus home when a group of Arab-looking young men   —   guessing his heritage   —   forced "the dirty Jew" off the bus at knifepoint, before beating, kicking and spitting on him as he lay on the sidewalk.

"He worries about leaving the house since then," she said. "I do too. I have two years before retirement, but when that has passed, we will move, to Israel or the United States, but away from the fear."

In 2004, the number of French Jews immigrating to Israel rose by 15 percent, to about 2,400, according to Emmanuel Weintraub, executive committee member for a coalition of Jewish groups in France. There are no similar figures for how many may have left for the United States or elsewhere, but Weintraub said talk of leaving France was a constant source of conversation among Jews.

He maintains that while he's convinced the French government is working on the problem, concern is warranted.

"I equate today's problems to the anti-Semitism of 120 years ago," he said. "This is not progress. People everywhere are wondering if there is a Jewish future in Europe. The question is not easily answered."

The concern is common.
"More and more, we hear that while we're doing a very good job of being concerned about dead Jews, there's not much interest is dealing with the issues of living ones," said Anne-Elisabeth Moutet, a journalist who tracks the rise in anti-Semitism for a number of European publications. "Nobody would say that Paris 2005 is Berlin 1935. But there is an increasing feeling here that nobody really cares about what happens to the Jews."

Added Ghozlan: "I would very much like to say that our work will result in a change for the better in France, but I am a pessimist. Look, Jews in France come from families who either survived the Holocaust or were chased from northern Africa. This does not breed optimism."
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity

Offline Nacho

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Looks like the jews may become an endagered "species" again shortly down the road unless this nonsense is stopped. You would think some of the euroweenies would have some sense to pass some hate crime legislation in their countries attached with deporting certain groups of trouble makers to keep the peace. You know it's bad when some citizens have so much fear that they are leaving to find safer harbors.
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity

Offline ania

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Did it occur to anyone that the influx & spread of Islam throughout Europe might have something to do with this? 
« Last Edit: January 27, 2005, 03:58:09 PM by ania »
Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...

Offline sdcheung

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Offline Nacho

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Hmmm..
would they like some Cheese with their "whine"?

Hehe, probably so ;D

Quote
Did it occur to anyone that the influx & spread of Islam throughout Europe might have something to do with this?

That's probably a good portion of the problems. I'm sure there are also your home grown neo- nazi punks causing trouble also. You would think they would focus more on the radical islamist but they think the jews are the biggest problem in thier society, go figure... ::)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2005, 06:44:26 PM by Nacho »
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity

Offline Matthew777

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Did it occur to anyone that the influx & spread of Islam throughout Europe might have something to do with this?

I believe so.
He who has a why to live for can bear with almost any how. - Friedrich Nietzsche
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http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm

Offline Pravoslavbob

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Hmmm..
would they like some Cheese with their "whine"?

sdcheung,

I find your comment troubling, inappropriate and offensive.
Atheists have noetic deficiencies.


Don't believe everything you think.


The more I know, the less I know.   ;)

Offline sdcheung

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I assure you that I am neither troubled, inappropraite or offensive.

I just think they whine too much for their own good.

If you want something really offensive try this on for size...
if you care so much about them..convert to Orthopoxed Judaism. ;)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2005, 07:48:26 PM by sdcheung »

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Offline Ian Lazarus

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Now, that was uncalled for. You must remember that as Christians, we are called upon to love ALL people, even those we dont agree with. You must remember taht the Jews of Europe are surrounded with constant reminders of the horror that took place in World War II that nearly succeeded in elimiating an entire race or people and their faith, which we believe is ours but fulfilled. Auschwitz is a horrid reminder of the evil that took place because it remains nearly untouched as a reminder to all of the madness and evil of one man and his followers and how far the envelope could be pushed, to make us aware never to repeat that kind of behavior again. To suggest that the Jewish people are merely whining would probably be equivelant to Orthodox Christians in Russia being accused of whining when they were killed, imprisoned, and worse by their communist oppressors. No dont worry about them............their just crybabies, right?

WRONG.

To say that because one might be sympathetic to the cause or situation does not deem that one has to join the movement. Though it was probably meant sarcasm (and I sincerely hope it was), it was best not said. It was in the poorest of taste, especially in this forum.

I am not angry, but rather a bit preturbed by this kind of post. It shows biggotry, even if the intention was not aught. Rethink this, Brother. It is not becoming of a Christian.

The greatest of sinners,

Ian Lazarus :grommit:
"For I am With thee, withersoever thou goest"

Joshua 1:9

Offline Ibrahim

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Quote
That's probably a good portion of the problems. I'm sure there are also your home grown neo- nazi punks causing trouble also. You would think they would focus more on the radical islamist but they think the jews are the biggest problem in thier society, go figure... 


They hate them too and treat them just the same. They hate them more in Sweden (I can only talk about Sweden I lived there for 3 years). I have read about neo-Nazis going around and chasing down Mozambiqens and Algerians as they left work for no reason other than to make trouble just like the Islamist punks do to Jews. But I also remember in France a little while ago there was a woman who said she was attacked by a bunch of North African men who were calling her anyiSemitic names and it turned out she was lying all along and she had her boy friend do it (rough her up to look battered). Which is just a waste of time for real problems like the ones in the article. I'm suprised the Islamists and the neo-Nazis haven't teamed up yet to beat on Jews (let's not suggest though). You would think these angry young men would pick up a sport or something to vent.
At any rate, I do not believe that there is a man in the USA who accepts to live in illusion who says that peace will be recognized between the Arabs and Israel even if the occupation of the occupied Arab territories does not come to an end.
The late

Offline Nacho

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Which is just a waste of time for real problems like the ones in the article. I'm suprised the Islamists and the neo-Nazis haven't teamed up yet to beat on Jews (let's not suggest though). You would think these angry young men would pick up a sport or something to vent.

Yea, what a weird thought the nazi's would team up with the islamo-facist. I remember talking to a few people that said they were part of a group like that a few years ago and to my surprise they were really sympathizing with the arabs because they also know how the "jews really are." Of course I've never understood such hatred for the jews ranging from extreme leftist, racist groups, islamist & even some on the far right and to think this is coming from such places that claim to be a bastion of tolerance.
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity

Offline J

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Why doesn't anyone ever say anything about the Armenian genocide, or the 10 million-plus people that Stalin butchered?

This in no way negates the tragedy of the Holocaust.  Six million people, exterminated in an assembly-line manner, by people who really thought that they were doing the "right thing" is something that humanity needs to remind itself can never happen again.

So why aren't the troops storming Darfur?

Offline Strelets

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sdcheung,
I find your comment troubling, inappropriate and offensive.

I second that.

Why doesn't anyone ever say anything about the Armenian genocide, or the 10 million-plus people that Stalin butchered?

Because NATO's Muslim Turks and a Leftist government were doing the killing.

So why aren't the troops storming Darfur?

Because France and Russia are cozy with the dictatorship running the country.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2005, 11:48:14 PM by Strelets »
"The creed is very simple, and here is what it is: to believe that there is nothing more beautiful, more courageous, and more perfect than Christ; and there not only isn't, but I tell myself with a jealous love, there cannot be." ~ Fyodor Dostoevsky

Offline Elisha

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Why doesn't anyone ever say anything about the Armenian genocide, or the 10 million-plus people that Stalin butchered?

This in no way negates the tragedy of the Holocaust. Six million people, exterminated in an assembly-line manner, by people who really thought that they were doing the "right thing" is something that humanity needs to remind itself can never happen again.

So why aren't the troops storming Darfur?

Becuase it wasn't in the west - so no one notices.  Same with what's going on in the Congo and Sudan.

Offline aurelia

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It saddens me, it truly does, not just the hatred of the Jews (which i experienced firsthand during the years I was being raised Jewish) but over the whole world...I just dont understand it.  These genocidal tendencies...and why we (as humans and as nations)turn a blind eye...it makes no sense to me.  :'(  We've been watching the shows onthe Holocoust that have ben on recently...makes me sick.

Offline ania

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Did anyone catch the PBS special on Aushwitz on Wednesday night?  It was pretty good, I thought. 
Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...

Offline SaintShenouti

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PBS?  ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...  Oh look! Reading Rainbow! WOOOOO!!

Offline PontusAvenger

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In the dignified interest of worldwide multiculturalism and multiracialism I will share an opinon editorial from a non-European and non-Western perspective on this much talked about topic, published in Iran's equivalent of The New York Times, on the eve of "Global Holocaust Day".

******************


http://www.tehrantimes.com/Description.asp?Da=1/26/2005&Cat=14&Num=001

tehrantimes.com Jan. 26, 2005


Lies of the Holocaust Industry

By Hossein Amiri
Subjecting an ethnic group or nation to torture under any pretext is quite
unacceptable, but it is worse when the suffering is abused, and it is the
worst when a group tries to exaggerate the event for political purposes.

By exaggerating the suffering of the Jews during World War II, Zionist
groups and the Israeli regime are taking advantage of the situation by
raising the issue at international organizations in order to neutralize any
opposition to their diabolical plots.

No one is trying to ignore the suffering of the Jews at the hands of the
Nazis, but the suffering of a religious/ethnic group should not cause the
world to forget the suffering of another nation or allow those who suffered
persecution to do the same injustice to another nation.

Every year on January 27 the media give wide coverage to the so-called
Holocaust and Tel Aviv rebukes the world for the historic suffering that
they claim they experienced in the past.

Today the Holocaust has very complicated connotations. The exaggeration of
this phenomenon can be interpreted as the Europeans’ attempt to salve their
guilty consciences by handing over the lands of the Palestinian nation to a
people to whom the Europeans believe they have done an injustice.

After the end of the war in 1945, the Allies along with Zionist leaders
began formulating strange conceptions about the killing of Jews at Nazi
camps which a modern man can hardly accept. By conjuring up images of gas
chambers, they are attempting to convey the idea that the Jews have
undergone indescribable torture and that the world’s conscience should be
awakened to this issue so that the Jews are not subjected to injustice
again.

In pursuit of this goal, the West, spearheaded by Britain and the United
States, began sowing seeds for the seizure of Palestine and condemned the
Palestinians to pay for a crime that the Westerners themselves had
committed. Thus, this nation, which claims to have been the perennial victim
of violence and torture over the course of history, is now doing the same
thing to the Palestinians.

It was not long before a group of revisionist historians in the West began
to question the claim that six million Jews were butchered by the Nazis and
even asked whether the slaughter of six million Jews during World War Two
was possible or not.

The revisionist historians have proven in two decades of study that if
Hitler had carried out a systematic program to eradicate the Jews, it would
have taken more time than the six years that the war lasted. They have also
proven that such an act of ethnic cleansing through the use of the poison
gas Zyklon-B, as the Zionists claim, was not possible at the time.

Norman J. Finkelstein, a Jewish professor at New York University critical of
Zionist policies, has called the claim the “Holocaust Industry”, which is
only meant to boost support for the government of Israel.

Over the past several decades and since the event was questioned, Zionist
propagandists have tried to substantiate this claim through various means.

The Zionists are trying to revitalize an issue which has become discredited
in the eyes of world public opinion by using the press, radio, television,
the Internet, and, most importantly of all, cinema and the great filmmaking
industry in Hollywood, since most of the significant players of this
influential industry are Jews.

It can be said that any war, and particularly one that affects the world,
will always lead to many problems and disasters, and World War II is no
exception.

Undoubtedly, the Nazi concentration camps were not holiday resorts and
imposed various difficulties on the prisoners, just like any other detention
camps in other wars.

Many people in these camps, including innocent men, women and children, died
of hunger, illness, and other causes.

The victims were from different nations and ethnic groups, including the
Jews, who also lost many people, but the Jews were not the only victims of
the war and a greater number of innocent people from other ethnic groups
also lost their lives.

The issue of the Holocaust and the anniversaries held for the event are only
meant to promote the repressive policies of the Zionists.

The Jews suffered as a result of Hitler’s expansionism, just like other
innocent victims but should not be granted special privileges over the
others.

The declaration that six million Jews were killed in World War II is an
exaggeration of the truth. Furthermore, the suffering and pains of a nation
cannot justify their crimes against other nations.

The issue of the Holocaust is only being highlighted to cover up Israel’s
crimes in Palestine.


Offline bripat22

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Did anyone catch the PBS special on Aushwitz on Wednesday night? It was pretty good, I thought.

 Ania,

 It was a very good special.  Especially the extensive interviews with the surviviors from many countries.
For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like!-

                            Maggie Smith "The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie"

Offline Ibrahim

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Yea, what a weird thought the nazi's would team up with the islamo-facist. I remember talking to a few people that said they were part of a group like that a few years ago and to my surprise they were really sympathizing with the arabs because they also know how the "jews really are." Of course I've never understood such hatred for the jews ranging from extreme leftist, racist groups, islamist & even some on the far right and to think this is coming from such places that claim to be a bastion of tolerance.

I don't understand why Europeans are so antisemitic. What did Jews ever even do to them? I mean, I can see Palestinians or people from Golan being antiIsraeli for what the IDF does there but you hear all these idiodic things like Abu Nidal said that Yasir Arafat was a Moroccan Jew who infultrated the Palestinian cause to destroy the Arab nation. Just popycock. They blame Jews for everything. I mean, I can see being mad at Jewish Israeli settlers in our countries but I don't think national debt is the fault of "the Jews" unless these "JEws" are just economically illiterate Arab statesmen. But can someone tell me why Europeans get mad at Jews? Is it because they make mroe money? or because are so small in number? It makes no sense.
At any rate, I do not believe that there is a man in the USA who accepts to live in illusion who says that peace will be recognized between the Arabs and Israel even if the occupation of the occupied Arab territories does not come to an end.
The late

Offline Nacho

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I don't understand why Europeans are so antisemitic. What did Jews ever even do to them? I mean, I can see Palestinians or people from Golan being antiIsraeli for what the IDF does there but you hear all these idiodic things like Abu Nidal said that Yasir Arafat was a Moroccan Jew who infultrated the Palestinian cause to destroy the Arab nation. Just popycock. They blame Jews for everything. I mean, I can see being mad at Jewish Israeli settlers in our countries but I don't think national debt is the fault of "the Jews" unless these "JEws" are just economically illiterate Arab statesmen. But can someone tell me why Europeans get mad at Jews? Is it because they make mroe money? or because are so small in number? It makes no sense.

Maybe because thier left wing socialist utopian dream of government being their  provider for everything is about to crumble and callapse so they have to blame someone, so why not blame the jews eh? I'll be one happy camper the day that happens because they have drifted so far away from thier christian roots and personal responsibilty it's not even funny. How can you have  socialism if you don't even have children as a future tax base to support those lofty benefits? I think it's the blame game thing these people are playing and once again they are pointing the finger at the jews for thier problems. Prety sad indeed that history is slowing being repeated again. So much for thier tolerance we constantly hear about.
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity

Offline Ibrahim

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Well, they were attacking them during the Crusades. Socialism had nothing to do with that...
At any rate, I do not believe that there is a man in the USA who accepts to live in illusion who says that peace will be recognized between the Arabs and Israel even if the occupation of the occupied Arab territories does not come to an end.
The late

Offline Pravoslavbob

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In the dignified interest of worldwide multiculturalism and multiracialism I will share an opinon editorial from a non-European and non-Western perspective on this much talked about topic, published in Iran's equivalent of The New York Times, on the eve of "Global Holocaust Day".

Really? It might be their New York Times, but that doesn't stop it from being revisionist, apparently. and this article has the audacity to call the real version of history 'revisionist'!   I am against Zionism, but this is a totally different thing compared to the sufferings of the Jews and the Holocaust, which really happened. People really were gassed and killed. Auswicz and places like it (Dachau, etc.) were the most brutal concentration camps ever seen. ( Not to say that those in Soviet Russia or elsewhere were a picnic, by any means.) We shouldn't tolerate this kind of historical revisionism which says that these atrocities never happened, or that they were somehow not as bad as they are described.  It is beyond the pale.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2005, 10:56:14 PM by Pravoslavbob »
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Offline PontusAvenger

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Really? It might be their New York Times, but that doesn't stop it from being revisionist, apparently. and this article has the audacity to call the real version of history 'revisionist'! I am against Zionism, but this is a totally different thing compared to the sufferings of the Jews and the Holocaust, which really happened. People really were gassed and killed. Auswicz and places like it (Dachau, etc.) were the most brutal concentration camps ever seen. ( Not to say that those in Soviet Russia or elsewhere were a picnic, by any means.) We shouldn't tolerate this kind of historical revisionism which says that these atrocities never happened, or that they were somehow not as bad as they are described. It is beyond the pale.

Well, we should respect their views of history , after all, they could argue that what is happening to the Palestinians is a Holocaust, they (Jews/Israelis) stole their land , homes and belongings and packed them (the Palestinians) off into barbed wire encampments subjecting them to ongoing arbitrary arrests,incineration and daily humiliations. What's one culture's idea of a Holocaust, could seem to another culture's perspective to be an exagerration.

Perhaps one should go back in time and ask a Native American or a Second World War era Chinese person what their idea of "the most brutal concentration camps ever seen" was?

Offline PontusAvenger

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Now, that was uncalled for.  You must remember that as Christians, we are called upon to love ALL people, even those we dont agree with.  You must remember taht the Jews of Europe are surrounded with constant reminders of the horror that took place in World War II that nearly succeeded in elimiating an entire race or people and their faith, which we believe is ours but fulfilled.  Auschwitz is a horrid reminder of the evil that took place because it remains nearly untouched as a reminder to all of the madness and evil of one man and his followers and how far the envelope could be pushed, to make us aware never to repeat that kind of behavior again.  To suggest that the Jewish people are merely whining would probably be equivelant to Orthodox Christians in Russia being accused of whining when they were killed, imprisoned, and worse by their communist oppressors.  No dont worry about them............their just crybabies, right?

WRONG.

To say that because one might be sympathetic to the cause or situation does not deem that one has to join the movement.  Though it was probably meant sarcasm (and I sincerely hope it was), it was best not said.  It was in the poorest of taste, especially in this forum. 

I am not angry, but rather a bit preturbed by this kind of post.  It shows biggotry, even if the intention was not aught. Rethink this, Brother.  It is not becoming of a Christian. 

The greatest of sinners,

Ian Lazarus :grommit:

Mr. Lazarus, I politely ask that you rethink your ethnocentric and offensive reply to sdcheung's eloquent comment on what has been made a  legendary chapter of Western history, ONLY because  the Western world (with America in the lead ) has lobbied for exclusive tradermark rights to the Holocaust moniker for events that should justly  apply to a myriad of the world's people who do not have the political influence, power and money to produce over 200 Hollywood movies, television shows , television mini-series and documentaries not to mention the scores of memorials and musuems throughout the Western world on one JUST ONE ethnic group's Holocaust.

How about a equal treatment for the ... Native American Holocaust?
                                                    ....for the Hellenic Holocaust?
                                                    ....for the Chinese Holocaust?
                                                    ....for the Orthodox Christian Holocaust?
                                                    ...for the Congo Holocaust?
                                                    ...for the Cambodian Holocaust
                                                    ....for the Australian Aboriginal Holocaust?
                                                    ....for the Palestinian Holocaust?
                                                    ....for the Hiroshima atomic Holocaust
                                                     ...for the Carthiginian Holocast?
My hand is getting tired.....but as Orthodox Christians you should care for all these people equally, not just for one JUST ONE ethnic group that makes good Hollywood movies.

An apology to Mr. sdcheung is in order, Mr. Lazarus.

Offline Jennifer

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An apology to Mr. sdcheung is in order, Mr. Lazarus.

No it's not.  Sdcheung's sarcastic remark about "cheese with their whine" was completely inappropriate, and hardly "eloquent."  It was bigoted and mean.  Any rational person would object to having racist remarks sprawled on their buildings.  It's hardly "whining" to complain about racial bigotry.  That other bad things have happened to other ethnic groups is not relevant. 

"Cheese with their whine?"  It's so offensive and one shouldn't have to explain why it's offensive. 


Offline sdcheung

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Yes..
APOLOGIZE to me!

Your all offensive and Brainwashed by Whiners.

Yes other bad things that have happened to other people are relevent. If the jews haven't paid so much money to only have their so-called Holocaust publiczed while others have less or zero airtime, is unfair and selfish.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2005, 01:29:28 PM by sdcheung »

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Offline sdcheung

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I second that.



Because NATO's Muslim Turks and a Leftist government were doing the killing.



Because France and Russia are cozy with the dictatorship running the country.


eh..who cares what you second or third or fourth.

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Offline sdcheung

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Now, that was uncalled for.  You must remember that as Christians, we are called upon to love ALL people, even those we dont agree with.  You must remember taht the Jews of Europe are surrounded with constant reminders of the horror that took place in World War II that nearly succeeded in elimiating an entire race or people and their faith, which we believe is ours but fulfilled.  Auschwitz is a horrid reminder of the evil that took place because it remains nearly untouched as a reminder to all of the madness and evil of one man and his followers and how far the envelope could be pushed, to make us aware never to repeat that kind of behavior again.  To suggest that the Jewish people are merely whining would probably be equivelant to Orthodox Christians in Russia being accused of whining when they were killed, imprisoned, and worse by their communist oppressors.  No dont worry about them............their just crybabies, right?

WRONG.

To say that because one might be sympathetic to the cause or situation does not deem that one has to join the movement.  Though it was probably meant sarcasm (and I sincerely hope it was), it was best not said.  It was in the poorest of taste, especially in this forum. 

I am not angry, but rather a bit preturbed by this kind of post.  It shows biggotry, even if the intention was not aught. Rethink this, Brother.  It is not becoming of a Christian. 

The greatest of sinners,

Ian Lazarus :grommit:

Oh Gee thanks for lulling me to a dazed hypnotic stupor and then brainwashing me...
NOT.

I'm not buying it.

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Offline Nacho

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Quote
Yes..
APOLOGIZE to me!

Your all offensive and Brainwashed by Whiners.

Yes other bad things that have happened to other people are relevent. If the jews haven't paid so much money to only have their so-called Holocaust publiczed while others have less or zero airtime, is unfair and selfish.

You have to remember though the root of this all was Hitler trying to conquer Europe and the vast devestation caused by him. The reason why the halocaust has been at the forefront of public conciousness is due to the fact that world war 2 is still seared in the minds of most in the west and still evokes bitter memories by many people. It's not that other genocides are played down and the jews are hogging the spotlight, but  world war 2 being a major pinnacle in recent world history naturally brings up discourse on the genocide that also happened to the jews and others that were murdered.

Quote
Because NATO's Muslim Turks and a Leftist government were doing the killing.

Because France and Russia are cozy with the dictatorship running the country.


I agree, but the hate america first crowd will of course find any excuse to find fault.


Quote
Well, we should respect their views of history , after all, they could argue that what is happening to the Palestinians is a Holocaust, they (Jews/Israelis) stole their land , homes and belongings and packed them (the Palestinians) off into barbed wire encampments subjecting them to ongoing arbitrary arrests,incineration and daily humiliations. What's one culture's idea of a Holocaust, could seem to another culture's perspective to be an exagerration.

So, where do you think the jews should go then? Arabs/muslims have 99.99% of the land in the middle east. I guess that .01% the jews have just isn't good enough for the leftist and islamist that won't be happy until the jews are pushed into the sea.


"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity

Offline sdcheung

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Quote/
Well, we should respect their views of history , after all, they could argue that what is happening to the Palestinians is a Holocaust, they (Jews/Israelis) stole their land , homes and belongings and packed them (the Palestinians) off into barbed wire encampments subjecting them to ongoing arbitrary arrests,incineration and daily humiliations. What's one culture's idea of a Holocaust, could seem to another culture's perspective to be an exagerration.


So, where do you think the jews should go then? Arabs/muslims have 99.99% of the land in the middle east. I guess that .01% the jews have just isn't good enough for the leftist and islamist that won't be happy until the jews are pushed into the sea.
Quote//

They were given madagascar. they declined it.

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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So, where do you think the jews should go then? Arabs/muslims have 99.99% of the land in the middle east. I guess that .01% the jews have just isn't good enough for the leftist and islamist that won't be happy until the jews are pushed into the sea.

I'm ignorant, so humour me, correcting me when I err. Why did the Jews have to go to Palestine in the first place? Why couldn't they stay where they were (mostly in the West)? They may have been moved for their protection, but they were moved to Israel because people in the West of the Judeo-Christian tradition felt that was where they came from, so that is where they should go, current inhabitants be damned (they probably could've been moved elsewhere in Europe safely, but who would've wanted them?). With a little tweaking of the basic idea, what is to prevent India from forcing 2% of its population (Christians) to move to Britain? Or forcing 15-20% of its population (Muslims) to Saudi Arabia? Heck, why can't the officially non-Christian nations (like the US) send their Christian people to Palestine (that's where we got our start too)?  

Offline Jennifer

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I'm ignorant, so humour me, correcting me when I err.  Why did the Jews have to go to Palestine in the first place?  Why couldn't they stay where they were (mostly in the West)?  They may have been moved for their protection, but they were moved to Israel because people in the West of the Judeo-Christian tradition felt that was where they came from, so that is where they should go, current inhabitants be damned (they probably could've been moved elsewhere in Europe safely, but who would've wanted them?).  With a little tweaking of the basic idea, what is to prevent India from forcing 2% of its population (Christians) to move to Britain?  Or forcing 15-20% of its population (Muslims) to Saudi Arabia?  Heck, why can't the officially non-Christian nations (like the US) send their Christian people to Palestine (that's where we got our start too)?     

They weren't welcome in the west after the second world war.  After the war, there were actual massacres of Jews by Poles.  Even in the other countries where there wasn't outright persecution after the war, the Jews remembered that their friends and neighbors did little or nothing to help them.  Why would they want to remain there?  Immediately after the war they weren't welcomed in the US.  Of course they weren't welcomed in the US before the war either.  (remember the St. Louis?) 

My theory is that the west didn't want the Jews so supported zionism to get them out of their hair, so to speak.  They felt guilty for doing nothing to help them but didn't want them moving in next door.  So what better solution than to dump them in the middle of Palestine where only a bunch of non-white people lived, so who cares about them? 

Of course this is the proverbial slippery slope. 

But let's not blame the displaced Jews of Europe for wanting to leave Europe.  Remember they were living in displaced persons camps in occupied Germany. 


Offline Jennifer

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Yes..
APOLOGIZE to me!

Your all offensive and Brainwashed by Whiners.

Yes other bad things that have happened to other people are relevent. If the jews haven't paid so much money to only have their so-called Holocaust publiczed while others have less or zero airtime, is unfair and selfish.

I'm still laughing at the "eloquent" comment when I read posts like this. 

So it's "unfair" and "selfish" for the Jews to publicize their own suffering?  To care more about their own suffering than the suffering of others?  That's a perfectly normal human response.  We always care more about what happens to us than to other people. 


Offline PontusAvenger

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They weren't welcome in the west after the second world war. After the war, there were actual massacres of Jews by Poles. Even in the other countries where there wasn't outright persecution after the war, the Jews remembered that their friends and neighbors did little or nothing to help them. Why would they want to remain there? Immediately after the war they weren't welcomed in the US. Of course they weren't welcomed in the US before the war either. (remember the St. Louis?)

My theory is that the west didn't want the Jews so supported zionism to get them out of their hair, so to speak. They felt guilty for doing nothing to help them but didn't want them moving in next door. So what better solution than to dump them in the middle of Palestine where only a bunch of non-white people lived, so who cares about them?

Of course this is the proverbial slippery slope.

But let's not blame the displaced Jews of Europe for wanting to leave Europe. Remember they were living in displaced persons camps in occupied Germany.



If any group of people really suffered after the Second World War, it would have to be the Germans. Millions upon millions of Germans starved and froze to death in Allied concentration camps, and the Red Army of the anti-Orthodox Christian Soviet Union raped over two million German women and massacred some ten million German civilians. Jewish American invetigative reporter John Sack has written an excellent expose titled "An Eye for an Eye: The Untold Story of Jewish Revenge Against Germans in 1945" it documents many cases in post World War Two Poland were Germans were packed into concentration camps in order to be subsequently massacred BY JEWS!


So get your facts straight Golda,  and show some respect for the rest of humanity, that does not have the power, money,influence and privilege of being born Jewish.

One last thing, Golda, Zionism was invented by Jews long before the so-called "Holocaust" was promoted by "Shoah" business types in Hollywood.

Cheers,
--Pontusavenger

P.S.   Jennifer, I am waiting for you to apologise to Mr. sdcheung. It is not Christian of you to be so envious of Mr. sdcheung's eloquence.

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So get your facts straight Golda, and show some respect for the rest of humanity, that does not have the power, money,influence and privilege of being born Jewish.

One last thing, Golda, Zionism was invented by Jews long before the so-called "Holocaust" was promoted by "Shoah" business types in Hollywood.

Cheers,
--Pontusavenger

P.S. Jennifer, I am waiting for you to apologise to Mr. sdcheung. It is not Christian of you to be so envious of Mr. sdcheung's eloquence.


I guess that will have to wait for your apology for referring to me as "Golda." 

Question for the group, why does Eastern Orthodox discussions always seem to attract anti-semites?  It's a very unfortunate side of our faith.  One that I find quite embarrasing.  I sincerely hope that no seekers assume that "Pontusavenger" at all represents Eastern Orthodoxy. 


Offline Marjorie

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One last thing, Golda, Zionism was invented by Jews long before the so-called "Holocaust" was promoted by "Shoah" business types in Hollywood.

Remember that St. Maria Skobtsova (and others) died in protest of the "so-called" holocaust.

I find this statement of yours repugnant, not only as a Jew (which I am) but as a human being.

Marjorie
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Offline idontlikenames

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Even though this is a depressing thread, I'd like to add my own two rupees:

The establishment of the Zionist state has nothing whatsoever to do with a love or charity to the Hebrew race. It's simply an extension of a Templar "utopian" dream on the part of Freemasons and the "powers that be". the Freemasons (in league with the so-called {albeit misleading name} Illuminati) wanted to establish a state so that they can realize another Golden Age of a Fourth Temple. The fact that the Rothschild family (who are Jewish only in name) has pumped so much money into this "dream".....and that the Rothschild family has roots extending to Adam Weishaupt and the Bavarian "Illuminati" proves this. The Freemasons claim historical roots to a secret society started by Hiram and the builders of Solomon's Temple. In the "Golden Age", the "Lord" Maitreyu will be heralded in to usher a Freemasonic "Utopia".

There's a lot of shady business behind the Zionist business....and it has nothing to do with Jews.
Incidentally, some Church Fathers (I think Irenaeus and Justin, but don't quote me on that one) said that the Apocalyptic Temple would be built by the Antichrist Himself rather than by a group of innocuous Jews.

I am not Zionist precisely because I love Jewish people (of course, they can only be saved by Salvation in the Church).

I hope my views didn't offend anyone. ???
laa ilaah illa al-Maal wa Rothschild howa nabeehi

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Offline PontusAvenger

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PA,

Why don't you stick to avenging Pontus?

Well, Mor , I would love to avenge Pontus , mostly bcs I cannot stand injustice.

But I commented to this thread bcs I find the fawning support for a foreign anti-Christian privileged people coupled with a Jewish State that supportsthe nemies of Christianity, yet expects me to believe and support them , PLEASE

Hardly any one outside Greece , much less oputside Orthodoxy,knows about the Holocaust in Pontus, yet the whole Western world wails and crys over Auschwiotz.

Ever thought about that Mor?

Offline PontusAvenger

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Remember that St. Maria Skobtsova (and others) died in protest of the "so-called" holocaust.

I find this statement of yours repugnant, not only as a Jew (which I am) but as a human being.

Marjorie

What exactly is so repubnant about my statement. Is anything I said untrue? Well, who really invented Zionism, if it was not Jews? Did the Eskimos invent Zionism? The pygmies perhaps? Pray tell....

There were great human violations against many different people during the second World War.It's repugnant that all those other people , who are not born Jewish, are dismissed as worthless sub-humans not worthy of even passing consideration by the powers that be...


Offline Mor Ephrem

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Quote
Well, Mor , I would love to avenge Pontus , mostly bcs I cannot stand injustice.

But I commented to this thread bcs I find the fawning support for a foreign anti-Christian privileged people coupled with a Jewish State that supportsthe nemies of Christianity, yet expects me to believe and support them , PLEASE

Hardly any one outside Greece , much less oputside Orthodoxy,knows about the Holocaust in Pontus, yet the whole Western world wails and crys over Auschwiotz.

Ever thought about that Mor?

Sure I have. Plenty of people go through life not knowing/remembering the Armenian Genocide: in fact, you didn't mention it in your list of genocides. I don't think that's right. But that doesn't mean I'm going to lash out at one particular group because it gets more attention. "Truly I say to you, they have had their reward."  

No one expects you to support Israel. I don't support Israel, but I'm not going to attack them either. After fifty years, something different needs to be done with that situation, and if I admit I think it looks impossible, I don't think I'll be in bad company. What people do expect of you is for you to get your point across without insulting people, and you seem to have a problem with that. Since this thread looks like it's going to spiral out of control, I am locking this thread: the next time I have to say something, you will be moderated.