Author Topic: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy  (Read 25668 times)

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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #90 on: February 15, 2018, 10:24:02 PM »
The essential question we should ask why the Protestant church are geting more people
Because part of their approach is to get you to start thinking in ways that makes them look like the only realistic choice. And because as a western cultural power they offer material and spiritual materialism benefits that The Coptic Church either never did or doesn't anymore.

Watch this: Being authentic and making the faith your own is anti-Christian. What do you think about that, and why?
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline youssef

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #91 on: February 15, 2018, 10:46:29 PM »
The essential question we should ask why the Protestant church are geting more people
Because part of their approach is to get you to start thinking in ways that makes them look like the only realistic choice. And because as a western cultural power they offer material and spiritual materialism benefits that The Coptic Church either never did or doesn't anymore.

Watch this: Being authentic and making the faith your own is anti-Christian. What do you think about that, and why?

Link?

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #92 on: February 15, 2018, 10:53:08 PM »
The essential question we should ask why the Protestant church are geting more people
Because part of their approach is to get you to start thinking in ways that makes them look like the only realistic choice. And because as a western cultural power they offer material and spiritual materialism benefits that The Coptic Church either never did or doesn't anymore.

Watch this: Being authentic and making the faith your own is anti-Christian. What do you think about that, and why?

Link?

I don't think he's talking about a video, he's inviting you to a thought experiment.

How do you feel about that phrase?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline youssef

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #93 on: February 16, 2018, 07:56:16 PM »
Can you clarify more the phrase.
Did you meant if I create my own faith whitin Christianity does this still Christian.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #94 on: February 16, 2018, 11:43:28 PM »
Can you clarify more the phrase.
Did you meant if I create my own faith whitin Christianity does this still Christian.
No, I don't mean that. I mean trying to make the faith your own by being intentional and authentic.
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline WPM

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #95 on: February 17, 2018, 08:48:57 AM »
No such thing.
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Offline recent convert

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #96 on: February 17, 2018, 10:45:33 AM »
I think the ancient way of preaching was to preach Christ directly from the Old Testament. The conclusion of that aspect seems to be expressed in the “2 ways” of life and death which Moses expressed in Deuteronomy 30:11-20. This seems to be the bridge between the 2 testaments in the ancient preaching. A prime example of this seems to be the conclusion of the Epistle of Barnabas and the starting point of the Didache. I do not think this pattern was exclusive to these writings but is exemplified in them. They are also probably the only surviving records that clearsly express this. The ancient pattern of apostolic preaching seems directly from the Bible but distinct from the modern evangelical method. The Lord Himself set this up with His summation of the law and prophets which is the where the Didache begins after the “ 2 ways” situation is expressed. The Lord’s preaching of keeping the commandments rests on these ( and is summarized by St. Paul in Romans 13:8-10). This I think is the basic explay that was originally preached and is still so but is buried in centuries of secondary ( though necessary)!traditions that have made the ancient worship so difficult to be explained by our preachers and lost in ignorance to the laity ( although lived out in the piety of many.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #97 on: February 17, 2018, 06:10:35 PM »
Can you clarify more the phrase.
Did you meant if I create my own faith whitin Christianity does this still Christian.
No, I don't mean that. I mean trying to make the faith your own by being intentional and authentic.


Might want to unpack those two words a little.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline youssef

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #98 on: February 17, 2018, 07:15:12 PM »
Can you clarify more the phrase.
Did you meant if I create my own faith whitin Christianity does this still Christian.
No, I don't mean that. I mean trying to make the faith your own by being intentional and authentic.


Might want to unpack those two words a little.
My problem is with make the faith your own. I am not getting what he meant with tis.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #99 on: February 17, 2018, 10:49:18 PM »
Can you clarify more the phrase.
Did you meant if I create my own faith whitin Christianity does this still Christian.
No, I don't mean that. I mean trying to make the faith your own by being intentional and authentic.


Might want to unpack those two words a little.
My problem is with make the faith your own. I am not getting what he meant with tis.
https://collegiateministries.intervarsity.org/blog/owning-your-faith
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #100 on: February 17, 2018, 11:35:18 PM »
Can you clarify more the phrase.
Did you meant if I create my own faith whitin Christianity does this still Christian.
No, I don't mean that. I mean trying to make the faith your own by being intentional and authentic.


Might want to unpack those two words a little.
My problem is with make the faith your own. I am not getting what he meant with tis.
https://collegiateministries.intervarsity.org/blog/owning-your-faith

That brings back quite a few memories from growing up...
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline youssef

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #101 on: February 18, 2018, 02:34:52 PM »
It is a good question i am always writing stuff and then eraze them because the way i see christianity now who had some contradiction. I will think more.
I think for you owning your faith is non christian because the faith should be take it from the church first.

Offline LoveJoyPeace

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #102 on: February 20, 2018, 12:07:38 AM »
It is a good question i am always writing stuff and then eraze them because the way i see christianity now who had some contradiction. I will think more.
I think for you owning your faith is non christian because the faith should be take it from the church first.

See to me "owning the faith" means engaging in it of your own will. It means I am praying, and attending Liturgy, and receiving the Holy Mysteries of Confession and the Holy Eucharist, and reading my Bible, and serving others, and generally worshipping and glorifying God with my life and my being all because I want to, not because my parents want me to/are making me. It means that I make the  conscious and willing decision to strive to pour out my life and my being at the feet of Christ and strive to trust in Him for all things.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #103 on: February 20, 2018, 01:47:40 AM »
It is a good question i am always writing stuff and then eraze them because the way i see christianity now who had some contradiction. I will think more.
I think for you owning your faith is non christian because the faith should be take it from the church first.

See to me "owning the faith" means engaging in it of your own will. It means I am praying, and attending Liturgy, and receiving the Holy Mysteries of Confession and the Holy Eucharist, and reading my Bible, and serving others, and generally worshipping and glorifying God with my life and my being all because I want to, not because my parents want me to/are making me. It means that I make the  conscious and willing decision to strive to pour out my life and my being at the feet of Christ and strive to trust in Him for all things.

As well it should, but I don't think that's quite what NickMyra is referring to. I think what he's talking about is more the distorted attitude that feels the need to change the faith in order to make it more "me" or "my felt needs" or "the felt needs of the seeker." The impulse that leads to assuming that no one in this present darkness will follow Christ without a rock band in the worship service and a Starbucks in the narthex and five satellite campuses with trendy sermons that reference Finding Dory.*




*Completely seamless segue into being able to post another John B. Crist sketch. Am I am a c00l guy who winz an internet yet?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 01:49:27 AM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline LoveJoyPeace

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #104 on: February 20, 2018, 02:12:48 AM »
It is a good question i am always writing stuff and then eraze them because the way i see christianity now who had some contradiction. I will think more.I think for you owning your faith is non christian because the faith should be take it from the church first.
See to me "owning the faith" means engaging in it of your own will. It means I am praying, and attending Liturgy, and receiving the Holy Mysteries of Confession and the Holy Eucharist, and reading my Bible, and serving others, and generally worshipping and glorifying God with my life and my being all because I want to, not because my parents want me to/are making me. It means that I make the  conscious and willing decision to strive to pour out my life and my being at the feet of Christ and strive to trust in Him for all things.
As well it should, but I don't think that's quite what NickMyra is referring to. I think what he's talking about is more the distorted attitude that feels the need to change the faith in order to make it more "me" or "my felt needs" or "the felt needs of the seeker." The impulse that leads to assuming that no one in this present darkness will follow Christ without a rock band in the worship service and a Starbucks in the narthex and five satellite campuses with trendy sermons that reference Finding Dory.**Completely seamless segue into being able to post another John B. Crist sketch. Am I am a c00l guy who winz an internet yet?
You remind me of this video.  😂
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #105 on: February 20, 2018, 03:04:30 AM »
Another good one :laugh:


Just remember to be Contemporvent so Jesus can spin you right round.

The second one is more sad than funny, since I'm pretty sure it's not satire.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline LoveJoyPeace

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #106 on: February 20, 2018, 03:19:08 AM »
Another good one :laugh:


Just remember to be Contemporvent so Jesus can spin you right round.

The second one is more sad than funny, since I'm pretty sure it's not satire.

I.... I don't know what to say except

Epchoic nai nan
Ya Raabu Irham
Señor ten piedad
Kyrie Eleison
Lord have mercy
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #107 on: February 20, 2018, 03:31:48 AM »
Another good one :laugh:


Just remember to be Contemporvent so Jesus can spin you right round.

The second one is more sad than funny, since I'm pretty sure it's not satire.

I.... I don't know what to say except

Epchoic nai nan
Ya Raabu Irham
Señor ten piedad
Kyrie Eleison
Lord have mercy

I guess that's about all that can be said. Things like that are a cautionary tale for every Christian congregation, I think. I would really hate to see it replicated.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline LoveJoyPeace

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #108 on: February 20, 2018, 12:54:43 PM »
Another good one :laugh:


Just remember to be Contemporvent so Jesus can spin you right round.

The second one is more sad than funny, since I'm pretty sure it's not satire.

I.... I don't know what to say except

Epchoic nai nan
Ya Raabu Irham
Señor ten piedad
Kyrie Eleison
Lord have mercy

I guess that's about all that can be said. Things like that are a cautionary tale for every Christian congregation, I think. I would really hate to see it replicated.

Sigh, I don't want the OO to become anything like this or anything that could lead to this. If there is as much modernized influence as seems from this thread, we need to do something. Fast. :(
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #109 on: February 20, 2018, 03:32:30 PM »
Quote
Sure can be, yes. Most often isn't.

99% of CCM (even when it isn't outright heretical from an Orthodox standpoint) is poorly written, poorly performed, homogenized, corporate as heck, and emotionally manipulative.

This is a joke, yes, but it has a lot of truth in it. Do you really want to open the Sturgeon's Law floodgates just for an off chance of getting a few Michael Card songs in the liturgy?


I remember a service I attended in some evangelical youth group in wich people were rebaptize after a very emotionally manipulative sermon with a emotional music (and of course the ethereal guitar chords and the dimmed lights), I found that very disturbing and wrong.

I don't know if that happens in those modern coptic liturgy abuses (probably not rebaptism I hope), but it is indeed concerning, emotional manipulation plays a heavy role in CCM worship, better not going that path.

Offline LoveJoyPeace

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #110 on: February 20, 2018, 04:27:28 PM »
Quote
Sure can be, yes. Most often isn't.

99% of CCM (even when it isn't outright heretical from an Orthodox standpoint) is poorly written, poorly performed, homogenized, corporate as heck, and emotionally manipulative.

This is a joke, yes, but it has a lot of truth in it. Do you really want to open the Sturgeon's Law floodgates just for an off chance of getting a few Michael Card songs in the liturgy?


I remember a service I attended in some evangelical youth group in wich people were rebaptize after a very emotionally manipulative sermon with a emotional music (and of course the ethereal guitar chords and the dimmed lights), I found that very disturbing and wrong.

I don't know if that happens in those modern coptic liturgy abuses (probably not rebaptism I hope), but it is indeed concerning, emotional manipulation plays a heavy role in CCM worship, better not going that path.

Definitely not rebaptism. Sometimes some CCM at youth meetings though.
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Offline youssef

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #111 on: February 20, 2018, 07:03:26 PM »
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #112 on: February 20, 2018, 07:55:34 PM »
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.

That's got nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost goes where He will and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This isn't about saying whether anybody will be saved or damned. It's about what's correct and reverent. There have to be some standards other than the worship leader's vague feelings about what's "spirit lead" (otherwise, why not sing "Jesus Right Round?")

The traditional Orthodox services may not be perfect, but they're still good standards that have stood the test of time (Proverbs 22:28).
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline youssef

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #113 on: February 20, 2018, 08:59:26 PM »
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.

That's got nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost goes where He will and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This isn't about saying whether anybody will be saved or damned. It's about what's correct and reverent. There have to be some standards other than the worship leader's vague feelings about what's "spirit lead" (otherwise, why not sing "Jesus Right Round?")

The traditional Orthodox services may not be perfect, but they're still good standards that have stood the test of time (Proverbs 22:28).

The proverb is part of religion Christianity is the end of religion. The standard exist in the meaning.for exemple we can say that some music can lead to transcandancy and some not. So the use of a musical instruments is not a problem in itself.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #114 on: February 20, 2018, 09:28:44 PM »
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.

That's got nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost goes where He will and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This isn't about saying whether anybody will be saved or damned. It's about what's correct and reverent. There have to be some standards other than the worship leader's vague feelings about what's "spirit lead" (otherwise, why not sing "Jesus Right Round?")

The traditional Orthodox services may not be perfect, but they're still good standards that have stood the test of time (Proverbs 22:28).

The proverb is part of religion Christianity is the end of religion.

Define "religion?" The New Covenant puts the end to the old requirements of the Jewish law, but that doesn't mean there are no customs or standards. Pretty sure that several of the Fathers quoted that proverb to mean hewing to tradition.

The standard exist in the meaning.for exemple we can say that some music can lead to transcandancy and some not. So the use of a musical instruments is not a problem in itself.

And who defines what does or doesn't lead to transcendence? I'm sure the "Jesus Right Round" guy thought he was promoting transcendence, as do the Vineyard people who bark like dogs or practice "holy laughter." The fact that you or I might think we can imagine a proper, reverent Orthodox context with instruments does not remove the need for extreme caution on the part of the bishops because of the abuses and shallowness that can and does occur in these contexts despite the best intentions of their promoters.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 09:30:42 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #115 on: February 20, 2018, 09:57:35 PM »
It is a good question i am always writing stuff and then eraze them because the way i see christianity now who had some contradiction. I will think more.
I think for you owning your faith is non christian because the faith should be take it from the church first.
No, I think it means being anxious and self-centered. I think it mean thinking you're not putting on an act when you really are. I think it means making up a life story to make it look like the story someone else told about their life. I think it means putting thoughts above faith.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 10:00:06 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline youssef

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #116 on: February 21, 2018, 07:37:36 AM »
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.

That's got nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost goes where He will and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This isn't about saying whether anybody will be saved or damned. It's about what's correct and reverent. There have to be some standards other than the worship leader's vague feelings about what's "spirit lead" (otherwise, why not sing "Jesus Right Round?")

The traditional Orthodox services may not be perfect, but they're still good standards that have stood the test of time (Proverbs 22:28).

The proverb is part of religion Christianity is the end of religion.

Define "religion?" The New Covenant puts the end to the old requirements of the Jewish law, but that doesn't mean there are no customs or standards. Pretty sure that several of the Fathers quoted that proverb to mean hewing to tradition.

The standard exist in the meaning.for exemple we can say that some music can lead to transcandancy and some not. So the use of a musical instruments is not a problem in itself.

And who defines what does or doesn't lead to transcendence? I'm sure the "Jesus Right Round" guy thought he was promoting transcendence, as do the Vineyard people who bark like dogs or practice "holy laughter." The fact that you or I might think we can imagine a proper, reverent Orthodox context with instruments does not remove the need for extreme caution on the part of the bishops because of the abuses and shallowness that can and does occur in these contexts despite the best intentions of their promoters.

For me i think that defending so much tradition will lead to be like the teachers of the law and Pharisees.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

If we are okey that this tradition will not lead to salvation but what you do on your life(charity, spread the word, forgiveness...) why will defend them. Does the one who go to traditional mass is better then the one who go to the most extreme modern form?

 


Offline youssef

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #117 on: February 21, 2018, 07:51:09 AM »
It is a good question i am always writing stuff and then eraze them because the way i see christianity now who had some contradiction. I will think more.
I think for you owning your faith is non christian because the faith should be take it from the church first.
No, I think it means being anxious and self-centered. I think it mean thinking you're not putting on an act when you really are. I think it means making up a life story to make it look like the story someone else told about their life. I think it means putting thoughts above faith.

But this is so personal, you are trying to judge the inside of the people. I felt the same way as you about the article but now i don't like to judge anyone . For exemple i had read that 33 per cent of russian orthodox think that the russian orthodox church is just a part of their nationalism and they are not believer. so just attending the way of your ancestors and defending it doen't mean you are believer.

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #118 on: February 21, 2018, 08:25:18 AM »
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.

That's got nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost goes where He will and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This isn't about saying whether anybody will be saved or damned. It's about what's correct and reverent. There have to be some standards other than the worship leader's vague feelings about what's "spirit lead" (otherwise, why not sing "Jesus Right Round?")

The traditional Orthodox services may not be perfect, but they're still good standards that have stood the test of time (Proverbs 22:28).

The proverb is part of religion Christianity is the end of religion.

Define "religion?" The New Covenant puts the end to the old requirements of the Jewish law, but that doesn't mean there are no customs or standards. Pretty sure that several of the Fathers quoted that proverb to mean hewing to tradition.

The standard exist in the meaning.for exemple we can say that some music can lead to transcandancy and some not. So the use of a musical instruments is not a problem in itself.

And who defines what does or doesn't lead to transcendence? I'm sure the "Jesus Right Round" guy thought he was promoting transcendence, as do the Vineyard people who bark like dogs or practice "holy laughter." The fact that you or I might think we can imagine a proper, reverent Orthodox context with instruments does not remove the need for extreme caution on the part of the bishops because of the abuses and shallowness that can and does occur in these contexts despite the best intentions of their promoters.

For me i think that defending so much tradition will lead to be like the teachers of the law and Pharisees.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

If we are okey that this tradition will not lead to salvation but what you do on your life(charity, spread the word, forgiveness...) why will defend them. Does the one who go to traditional mass is better then the one who go to the most extreme modern form?

No, I don't think they're better. One can have tradition but still be dead inside. But I do think that the extremists are worshiping God in an irreverent, unworthy manner.

I notice that you completely avoided my question- how do we decide what meets the standard of transcendence and what doesn't?
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline LoveJoyPeace

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #119 on: February 21, 2018, 10:01:45 AM »
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.

That's got nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost goes where He will and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This isn't about saying whether anybody will be saved or damned. It's about what's correct and reverent. There have to be some standards other than the worship leader's vague feelings about what's "spirit lead" (otherwise, why not sing "Jesus Right Round?")

The traditional Orthodox services may not be perfect, but they're still good standards that have stood the test of time (Proverbs 22:28).

The proverb is part of religion Christianity is the end of religion.

Define "religion?" The New Covenant puts the end to the old requirements of the Jewish law, but that doesn't mean there are no customs or standards. Pretty sure that several of the Fathers quoted that proverb to mean hewing to tradition.

The standard exist in the meaning.for exemple we can say that some music can lead to transcandancy and some not. So the use of a musical instruments is not a problem in itself.

And who defines what does or doesn't lead to transcendence? I'm sure the "Jesus Right Round" guy thought he was promoting transcendence, as do the Vineyard people who bark like dogs or practice "holy laughter." The fact that you or I might think we can imagine a proper, reverent Orthodox context with instruments does not remove the need for extreme caution on the part of the bishops because of the abuses and shallowness that can and does occur in these contexts despite the best intentions of their promoters.

I mean Copts do use cymbals and sometimes a triangle during our worship. Some Greek parishes use an organ. So instruments are not non-existent in Orthodoxy. But I agree that caution does need to be taken.
Christos Anesti!

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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #120 on: February 21, 2018, 11:33:21 AM »
It is a good question i am always writing stuff and then eraze them because the way i see christianity now who had some contradiction. I will think more.
I think for you owning your faith is non christian because the faith should be take it from the church first.
No, I think it means being anxious and self-centered. I think it mean thinking you're not putting on an act when you really are. I think it means making up a life story to make it look like the story someone else told about their life. I think it means putting thoughts above faith.

But this is so personal, you are trying to judge the inside of the people. I felt the same way as you about the article but now i don't like to judge anyone
I don't think it's personal, and I think that living in the modern world we are all affected by it. I don't think we're talking about the inside of people. The Scripture says that the human heart it deep and desperately corrupt, so why look inside there for anything? When you look inside yourself you never find yourself. It is better to look at what happens in the space where things happen.

The sickness of introspection, intentionality, authenticity, personal narrative--we all have it now. But I object to making a religion out of it.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 11:35:21 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline youssef

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #121 on: February 21, 2018, 12:31:29 PM »
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.



That's got nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost goes where He will and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This isn't about saying whether anybody will be saved or damned. It's about what's correct and reverent. There have to be some standards other than the worship leader's vague feelings about what's "spirit lead" (otherwise, why not sing "Jesus Right Round?")

The traditional Orthodox services may not be perfect, but they're still good standards that have stood the test of time (Proverbs 22:28).

The proverb is part of religion Christianity is the end of religion.

Define "religion?" The New Covenant puts the end to the old requirements of the Jewish law, but that doesn't mean there are no customs or standards. Pretty sure that several of the Fathers quoted that proverb to mean hewing to tradition.

The standard exist in the meaning.for exemple we can say that some music can lead to transcandancy and some not. So the use of a musical instruments is not a problem in itself.

And who defines what does or doesn't lead to transcendence? I'm sure the "Jesus Right Round" guy thought he was promoting transcendence, as do the Vineyard people who bark like dogs or practice "holy laughter." The fact that you or I might think we can imagine a proper, reverent Orthodox context with instruments does not remove the need for extreme caution on the part of the bishops because of the abuses and shallowness that can and does occur in these contexts despite the best intentions of their promoters.

For me i think that defending so much tradition will lead to be like the teachers of the law and Pharisees.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

If we are okey that this tradition will not lead to salvation but what you do on your life(charity, spread the word, forgiveness...) why will defend them. Does the one who go to traditional mass is better then the one who go to the most extreme modern form?

No, I don't think they're better. One can have tradition but still be dead inside. But I do think that the extremists are worshiping God in an irreverent, unworthy manner.

I notice that you completely avoided my question- how do we decide what meets the standard of transcendence and what doesn't?

Anything that reflected truth and beauty is transcendent. Music in general is transcendant it is a universal language.

Martin luther has said Next to the Word of God, the noble art of music is the greatest treasure in the world.

Offline LoveJoyPeace

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #122 on: February 21, 2018, 12:50:15 PM »
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.



That's got nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost goes where He will and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This isn't about saying whether anybody will be saved or damned. It's about what's correct and reverent. There have to be some standards other than the worship leader's vague feelings about what's "spirit lead" (otherwise, why not sing "Jesus Right Round?")

The traditional Orthodox services may not be perfect, but they're still good standards that have stood the test of time (Proverbs 22:28).

The proverb is part of religion Christianity is the end of religion.

Define "religion?" The New Covenant puts the end to the old requirements of the Jewish law, but that doesn't mean there are no customs or standards. Pretty sure that several of the Fathers quoted that proverb to mean hewing to tradition.

The standard exist in the meaning.for exemple we can say that some music can lead to transcandancy and some not. So the use of a musical instruments is not a problem in itself.

And who defines what does or doesn't lead to transcendence? I'm sure the "Jesus Right Round" guy thought he was promoting transcendence, as do the Vineyard people who bark like dogs or practice "holy laughter." The fact that you or I might think we can imagine a proper, reverent Orthodox context with instruments does not remove the need for extreme caution on the part of the bishops because of the abuses and shallowness that can and does occur in these contexts despite the best intentions of their promoters.

For me i think that defending so much tradition will lead to be like the teachers of the law and Pharisees.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

If we are okey that this tradition will not lead to salvation but what you do on your life(charity, spread the word, forgiveness...) why will defend them. Does the one who go to traditional mass is better then the one who go to the most extreme modern form?

No, I don't think they're better. One can have tradition but still be dead inside. But I do think that the extremists are worshiping God in an irreverent, unworthy manner.

I notice that you completely avoided my question- how do we decide what meets the standard of transcendence and what doesn't?

Anything that reflected truth and beauty is transcendent. Music in general is transcendant it is a universal language.

Martin luther has said Next to the Word of God, the noble art of music is the greatest treasure in the world.

We definitely need to be careful with protestant music anyway. The songs of a church reflect the theology of that church. Several protestant songs reflect a poor (and heretical) theology.

One example off the top of my head is the song "In Christ Alone". One of the lines says, "Till on the cross when Jesus died, the wrath of God was satisfied." This is penal substitution, which is heresy.

There are several others that proclaim heretical theology, and it is important to be wary of the words we are singing. Just because a song is fun and is meant to worship our Lord, if the song lacks truth then it is nothing. We are to worship God in spirit and truth.
Christos Anesti!

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #123 on: February 21, 2018, 09:18:45 PM »
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.

That's got nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost goes where He will and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This isn't about saying whether anybody will be saved or damned. It's about what's correct and reverent. There have to be some standards other than the worship leader's vague feelings about what's "spirit lead" (otherwise, why not sing "Jesus Right Round?")

The traditional Orthodox services may not be perfect, but they're still good standards that have stood the test of time (Proverbs 22:28).

The proverb is part of religion Christianity is the end of religion.

Define "religion?" The New Covenant puts the end to the old requirements of the Jewish law, but that doesn't mean there are no customs or standards. Pretty sure that several of the Fathers quoted that proverb to mean hewing to tradition.

The standard exist in the meaning.for exemple we can say that some music can lead to transcandancy and some not. So the use of a musical instruments is not a problem in itself.

And who defines what does or doesn't lead to transcendence? I'm sure the "Jesus Right Round" guy thought he was promoting transcendence, as do the Vineyard people who bark like dogs or practice "holy laughter." The fact that you or I might think we can imagine a proper, reverent Orthodox context with instruments does not remove the need for extreme caution on the part of the bishops because of the abuses and shallowness that can and does occur in these contexts despite the best intentions of their promoters.

I mean Copts do use cymbals and sometimes a triangle during our worship. Some Greek parishes use an organ. So instruments are not non-existent in Orthodoxy. But I agree that caution does need to be taken.

Well, organs are not uncontroversial, but point taken. I don't see a problem with instruments in general in a non-liturgical context like an Ethiopian mezmur. I just don't think it's generally a good idea to use them in worship just because of that principle of caution.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #124 on: February 21, 2018, 09:23:05 PM »
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.



That's got nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost goes where He will and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This isn't about saying whether anybody will be saved or damned. It's about what's correct and reverent. There have to be some standards other than the worship leader's vague feelings about what's "spirit lead" (otherwise, why not sing "Jesus Right Round?")

The traditional Orthodox services may not be perfect, but they're still good standards that have stood the test of time (Proverbs 22:28).

The proverb is part of religion Christianity is the end of religion.

Define "religion?" The New Covenant puts the end to the old requirements of the Jewish law, but that doesn't mean there are no customs or standards. Pretty sure that several of the Fathers quoted that proverb to mean hewing to tradition.

The standard exist in the meaning.for exemple we can say that some music can lead to transcandancy and some not. So the use of a musical instruments is not a problem in itself.

And who defines what does or doesn't lead to transcendence? I'm sure the "Jesus Right Round" guy thought he was promoting transcendence, as do the Vineyard people who bark like dogs or practice "holy laughter." The fact that you or I might think we can imagine a proper, reverent Orthodox context with instruments does not remove the need for extreme caution on the part of the bishops because of the abuses and shallowness that can and does occur in these contexts despite the best intentions of their promoters.

For me i think that defending so much tradition will lead to be like the teachers of the law and Pharisees.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

If we are okey that this tradition will not lead to salvation but what you do on your life(charity, spread the word, forgiveness...) why will defend them. Does the one who go to traditional mass is better then the one who go to the most extreme modern form?

No, I don't think they're better. One can have tradition but still be dead inside. But I do think that the extremists are worshiping God in an irreverent, unworthy manner.

I notice that you completely avoided my question- how do we decide what meets the standard of transcendence and what doesn't?

Anything that reflected truth and beauty is transcendent. Music in general is transcendant it is a universal language.

I'm not sure that's true. Both Byzantine and Coptic chant for me have really been acquired tastes just because they're so different to the Western music that I was used to. I love them now, but it took me a few months to get acclimated.

Martin luther has said Next to the Word of God, the noble art of music is the greatest treasure in the world.

That's true. But not all music is created equal. There's nothing transcendent about, sorry to keep harping on the same point, "Jesus Right Round."
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 09:24:36 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline LoveJoyPeace

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #125 on: February 21, 2018, 10:23:11 PM »
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.

That's got nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost goes where He will and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This isn't about saying whether anybody will be saved or damned. It's about what's correct and reverent. There have to be some standards other than the worship leader's vague feelings about what's "spirit lead" (otherwise, why not sing "Jesus Right Round?")

The traditional Orthodox services may not be perfect, but they're still good standards that have stood the test of time (Proverbs 22:28).

The proverb is part of religion Christianity is the end of religion.

Define "religion?" The New Covenant puts the end to the old requirements of the Jewish law, but that doesn't mean there are no customs or standards. Pretty sure that several of the Fathers quoted that proverb to mean hewing to tradition.

The standard exist in the meaning.for exemple we can say that some music can lead to transcandancy and some not. So the use of a musical instruments is not a problem in itself.

And who defines what does or doesn't lead to transcendence? I'm sure the "Jesus Right Round" guy thought he was promoting transcendence, as do the Vineyard people who bark like dogs or practice "holy laughter." The fact that you or I might think we can imagine a proper, reverent Orthodox context with instruments does not remove the need for extreme caution on the part of the bishops because of the abuses and shallowness that can and does occur in these contexts despite the best intentions of their promoters.

I mean Copts do use cymbals and sometimes a triangle during our worship. Some Greek parishes use an organ. So instruments are not non-existent in Orthodoxy. But I agree that caution does need to be taken.

Well, organs are not uncontroversial, but point taken. I don't see a problem with instruments in general in a non-liturgical context like an Ethiopian mezmur. I just don't think it's generally a good idea to use them in worship just because of that principle of caution.

With Coptic chant, sometimes even liturgical hymns when recorded outside Liturgy are sung with different instruments. Youtube search Coptic Chant and youll see what i mean. I'm not fond of that honestly. I wish they would record liturgical hymns as they would be sung in Liturgy. Right now I don't mind the cymbals and triangle too much as long as they are not overpowering the human voice.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #126 on: February 21, 2018, 10:32:37 PM »
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.

That's got nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost goes where He will and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This isn't about saying whether anybody will be saved or damned. It's about what's correct and reverent. There have to be some standards other than the worship leader's vague feelings about what's "spirit lead" (otherwise, why not sing "Jesus Right Round?")

The traditional Orthodox services may not be perfect, but they're still good standards that have stood the test of time (Proverbs 22:28).

The proverb is part of religion Christianity is the end of religion.

Define "religion?" The New Covenant puts the end to the old requirements of the Jewish law, but that doesn't mean there are no customs or standards. Pretty sure that several of the Fathers quoted that proverb to mean hewing to tradition.

The standard exist in the meaning.for exemple we can say that some music can lead to transcandancy and some not. So the use of a musical instruments is not a problem in itself.

And who defines what does or doesn't lead to transcendence? I'm sure the "Jesus Right Round" guy thought he was promoting transcendence, as do the Vineyard people who bark like dogs or practice "holy laughter." The fact that you or I might think we can imagine a proper, reverent Orthodox context with instruments does not remove the need for extreme caution on the part of the bishops because of the abuses and shallowness that can and does occur in these contexts despite the best intentions of their promoters.

I mean Copts do use cymbals and sometimes a triangle during our worship. Some Greek parishes use an organ. So instruments are not non-existent in Orthodoxy. But I agree that caution does need to be taken.

Well, organs are not uncontroversial, but point taken. I don't see a problem with instruments in general in a non-liturgical context like an Ethiopian mezmur. I just don't think it's generally a good idea to use them in worship just because of that principle of caution.

With Coptic chant, sometimes even liturgical hymns when recorded outside Liturgy are sung with different instruments. Youtube search Coptic Chant and youll see what i mean. I'm not fond of that honestly. I wish they would record liturgical hymns as they would be sung in Liturgy. Right now I don't mind the cymbals and triangle too much as long as they are not overpowering the human voice.

Oh, I know. I guess for my taste it depends on what the arrangement does to the chant exactly, but I agree in general as a capella as possible would be best.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 10:34:13 PM by Volnutt »
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline LoveJoyPeace

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #127 on: February 21, 2018, 10:52:54 PM »
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.

That's got nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost goes where He will and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This isn't about saying whether anybody will be saved or damned. It's about what's correct and reverent. There have to be some standards other than the worship leader's vague feelings about what's "spirit lead" (otherwise, why not sing "Jesus Right Round?")

The traditional Orthodox services may not be perfect, but they're still good standards that have stood the test of time (Proverbs 22:28).

The proverb is part of religion Christianity is the end of religion.

Define "religion?" The New Covenant puts the end to the old requirements of the Jewish law, but that doesn't mean there are no customs or standards. Pretty sure that several of the Fathers quoted that proverb to mean hewing to tradition.

The standard exist in the meaning.for exemple we can say that some music can lead to transcandancy and some not. So the use of a musical instruments is not a problem in itself.

And who defines what does or doesn't lead to transcendence? I'm sure the "Jesus Right Round" guy thought he was promoting transcendence, as do the Vineyard people who bark like dogs or practice "holy laughter." The fact that you or I might think we can imagine a proper, reverent Orthodox context with instruments does not remove the need for extreme caution on the part of the bishops because of the abuses and shallowness that can and does occur in these contexts despite the best intentions of their promoters.

I mean Copts do use cymbals and sometimes a triangle during our worship. Some Greek parishes use an organ. So instruments are not non-existent in Orthodoxy. But I agree that caution does need to be taken.

Well, organs are not uncontroversial, but point taken. I don't see a problem with instruments in general in a non-liturgical context like an Ethiopian mezmur. I just don't think it's generally a good idea to use them in worship just because of that principle of caution.

With Coptic chant, sometimes even liturgical hymns when recorded outside Liturgy are sung with different instruments. Youtube search Coptic Chant and youll see what i mean. I'm not fond of that honestly. I wish they would record liturgical hymns as they would be sung in Liturgy. Right now I don't mind the cymbals and triangle too much as long as they are not overpowering the human voice.

Oh, I know. I guess for my taste it depends on what the arrangement does to the chant exactly, but I agree in general as a capella as possible would be best.

Can I just vent about how upset this makes me. Like Je Nai Nan is one of my favorite Liturgical Hymns. Can we please keep Liturgical hymns... Liturgical? Also I'm sorry but the fact that one of the guys performing this is Muslim kinda makes my frustration worse.

For reference, it's supposed to sound like this. (That is only one person. Usually it's sung by the priest alone then the whole congregation)
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 10:56:31 PM by LoveJoyPeace »
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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #128 on: February 22, 2018, 12:04:54 AM »
I think some EOs have similar problems, where a few parishes turn choir into a performance and hire non-Orthodox choir leaders.  At least this is what I hear from podcasts, but I have not personally experienced this.
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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #129 on: February 22, 2018, 01:18:29 AM »
Still the question what a real Christian is. Sure the white traditional are not Christian ;D
If someone is doing charity and try to spread the word of Christ and live in Christ Iwill say to him you are not cChristian because you are not respected the old form of liturgy.

That's got nothing to do with it. The Holy Ghost goes where He will and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

This isn't about saying whether anybody will be saved or damned. It's about what's correct and reverent. There have to be some standards other than the worship leader's vague feelings about what's "spirit lead" (otherwise, why not sing "Jesus Right Round?")

The traditional Orthodox services may not be perfect, but they're still good standards that have stood the test of time (Proverbs 22:28).

The proverb is part of religion Christianity is the end of religion.

Define "religion?" The New Covenant puts the end to the old requirements of the Jewish law, but that doesn't mean there are no customs or standards. Pretty sure that several of the Fathers quoted that proverb to mean hewing to tradition.

The standard exist in the meaning.for exemple we can say that some music can lead to transcandancy and some not. So the use of a musical instruments is not a problem in itself.

And who defines what does or doesn't lead to transcendence? I'm sure the "Jesus Right Round" guy thought he was promoting transcendence, as do the Vineyard people who bark like dogs or practice "holy laughter." The fact that you or I might think we can imagine a proper, reverent Orthodox context with instruments does not remove the need for extreme caution on the part of the bishops because of the abuses and shallowness that can and does occur in these contexts despite the best intentions of their promoters.

I mean Copts do use cymbals and sometimes a triangle during our worship. Some Greek parishes use an organ. So instruments are not non-existent in Orthodoxy. But I agree that caution does need to be taken.

Well, organs are not uncontroversial, but point taken. I don't see a problem with instruments in general in a non-liturgical context like an Ethiopian mezmur. I just don't think it's generally a good idea to use them in worship just because of that principle of caution.

With Coptic chant, sometimes even liturgical hymns when recorded outside Liturgy are sung with different instruments. Youtube search Coptic Chant and youll see what i mean. I'm not fond of that honestly. I wish they would record liturgical hymns as they would be sung in Liturgy. Right now I don't mind the cymbals and triangle too much as long as they are not overpowering the human voice.

Oh, I know. I guess for my taste it depends on what the arrangement does to the chant exactly, but I agree in general as a capella as possible would be best.

Can I just vent about how upset this makes me. Like Je Nai Nan is one of my favorite Liturgical Hymns. Can we please keep Liturgical hymns... Liturgical? Also I'm sorry but the fact that one of the guys performing this is Muslim kinda makes my frustration worse.

Feels kind of "try-hard" to me. Can't say I'm a fan. I've heard one electronic keyboard version of a Malankara hymn that I thought was ok, but I guess I tend to take a "go big or go home" attitude to it. If you're going to go all out like Rachmaninoff and make it pure theater, ok, but that link just seems like a limp half measure.

For reference, it's supposed to sound like this. (That is only one person. Usually it's sung by the priest alone then the whole congregation)

A lot better.
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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #130 on: February 22, 2018, 06:34:03 AM »
It is beautiful the only problem was the mix with islamic singing. At the end it is a concert they do such mixing in our country to say that we love each other and there is no problem.

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #131 on: February 22, 2018, 06:59:14 AM »
It is beautiful the only problem was the mix with islamic singing. At the end it is a concert they do such mixing in our country to say that we love each other and there is no problem.

Bleh, kitschy at best. Just listen to some Céline Dion and leave Orthodoxy out of it :p


At least it's not in the liturgy, though, I guess.
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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #132 on: February 22, 2018, 07:06:08 AM »
It is beautiful the only problem was the mix with islamic singing. At the end it is a concert they do such mixing in our country to say that we love each other and there is no problem.

Bleh, kitschy at best. Just listen to some Céline Dion and leave Orthodoxy out of it :p


At least it's not in the liturgy, though, I guess.

It was just a concert. they are doing some religious song. I don't like Celine dion ;D. Maybe we should add some blues to liurgy it is transcendent

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #133 on: February 22, 2018, 07:30:16 AM »
It is beautiful the only problem was the mix with islamic singing. At the end it is a concert they do such mixing in our country to say that we love each other and there is no problem.

Bleh, kitschy at best. Just listen to some Céline Dion and leave Orthodoxy out of it :p


At least it's not in the liturgy, though, I guess.

It was just a concert. they are doing some religious song. I don't like Celine dion ;D. Maybe we should add some blues to liurgy it is transcendent

Yes, why not? Then lets add snake handling. Then lets make clothing optional. Then lets sacrifice a goat. Then lets...

"Transcendence" is a subjective moving target. At least tradition offers a standard that more than a handful of people can agree on at any one time.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

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Re: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy
« Reply #134 on: February 22, 2018, 07:55:37 AM »
Hey Folks,

As you might've noticed, there have been a lot of threads on this and other Orthodox forums lately (not to mention websites like this http://dissidentcopts.blogspot.com/2009/06/things-to-straighten-protestant-thought.html) complaining about Evangelical and Charismatic thought and practice creeping into Oriental Orthodox Churches.

Well, a small group of us - Oriental Orthodox priests, deacons, and laity - believe that the time has come to stop complaining and do something.  Our desire is to work with - and in obedience to - our respective bishops and:

• develop a curriculum to be included in servants programs and seminaries so the future generation of servants and priests will be of a sound Orthodox Mind.
• facilitate the production of literature and hymns that are in line with the Orthodox teaching.
• conduct workshops in local churches and in different regions to train servants to adopt the Orthodox Mind and do away with protestant ways.
• create a website and Facebook page where clergy and servants interested in preserving Orthodoxy in their respective parishes can access patristic materials, essays, articles, videos, audio lectures, and other resources.

This fellowship is under the patronage of the great, pan-Oriental Orthodox Father St. Jacob Baradaeus (St. Jacob Baradaeus story: http://www.neamericandiocese.org/feasts-memorials.54/st-jacob-baradaeus.aspx).

The idea behind the fellowship is basically what I articulated in another thread on this issue.

We have to face the fact that the average Orthodox Christian isn't the amateur theologian who argues ad infinitum on these boards.  Rather, he or she is generally a pious person, not particularly theologically sophisticated, who has the same spiritual needs as every person.  When we don't meet those needs by teaching them about true Orthodox mysticism and theosis and how this cannot be achieved apart from living liturgically and participating in the Holy Mysteries - basically, opening to them the treasure trove of Orthodox spirituality - of course they turn to shallow means of satisfying the soul.  This is why we end up with folks who fool themselves into thinking that they can simultaneously be Orthodox and pseudo-tongue talkin' holy rollers, or worshippers of Haile Selassie, or crystal-carrying New Age mystics, or "Crazy 4 Christ" mega-church imitators, or whatever else.  We need to start working with our hierarchs to address this.

As the brilliant Orthodox theologian Harry Boosalis says in his wonderful book Taught by God:

“We are called not simply to preserve Patristic tradition. We are called to pursue it and to participate in it ourselves. From out of the well-spring of Holy Tradition and through our participation in the liturgical life of the Church; by attempting to acquire some share in the Fathers' spirit of humility and life of prayer; by pursuing their path toward purification, illumination and theosis, students of Orthodox Theology are called, and must be committed to, acquiring this same 'mind of the Fathers' which is nothing less than the mind of Christ Himself.

This not only keeps outside influences from infiltrating our inheritance; it also inspires and emboldens us as we confront, address, and reach out to the non-Orthodox around us. Only then can we speak with the same voice as our Fathers -- from out of the depths of their same experience, utilizing their same categories of thought, and rightly applying their same method and manner of approach.”


Amen.

I want to be very clear that this fellowship is not about advocating a rediscovery of Orthodoxy alongside warped, Protestantized theology and practice, but to the absolute exclusion of it.

If any Oriental Orthodox Christian on these boards is interested in taking a stand along these lines against heterodox faith and practice creeping into our Communion, please pm me with your email.

In Christ,

A.N.


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