Topic: Addressing Protestant Influence in Oriental Orthodoxy

[minasoliman]

In Fr. Peter Farrington's paper, "Protestant Attempts to Influence the Coptic Orthodox Church", he states:

...but even as recently as November, 2009, reports in the Egyptian press described a controversy between the Coptic Orthodox and Protestant communities caused by the revelation of CD which documented plans to try to convert the Coptic Orthodox community to Protestantism in just two decades[20].

[20] The International, Nov 10, 2009.
http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/africa/evangelicals-woo-egyptian-c

The reference doesn't work. Does anyone have the details on this matter? Thanks.

Sheenj beat me to it...lol...someone might need to let Fr. Peter to fix his link

[Antonious Nikolas]

In Fr. Peter Farrington's paper, "Protestant Attempts to Influence the Coptic Orthodox Church", he states:

...but even as recently as November, 2009, reports in the Egyptian press described a controversy between the Coptic Orthodox and Protestant communities caused by the revelation of CD which documented plans to try to convert the Coptic Orthodox community to Protestantism in just two decades[20].

[20] The International, Nov 10, 2009.
http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/africa/evangelicals-woo-egyptian-c

The reference doesn't work. Does anyone have the details on this matter? Thanks.

I know that in in June of 2006, the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church "warned specifically against the activities of the Southern Baptist Convention, which published materials stating explicitly that they were targeting the Coptic Orthodox Christians of Egypt for conversion". 

In 2009, one of our priests came across a CD detailing a plan to convert the Copts of Egypt to Evangelicalism within a certain amount of time.  Here is a working link to the article you're referencing.

An excerpt relative to just how Evangelical-influenced some clergy are:

Bishop Bishoy, the secretary of the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church and the church leader charged with internal discipline, will officially reprimand Orthodox priests who have been accused of Evangelical sympathies in hearings scheduled for later this month.Bishop Bishoy did not respond to requests for comment, but Father Basiit said the priests are suspected of "reading too many Protestant books" and spreading Protestant ideology in their sermons. If they are found "guilty" of such crimes, the church could restrain their religious duties.

[CoptoGeek]

Thank you, AN!

[CoptoGeek]

This looks like the full link:
http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/africa/evangelicals-woo-egyptian-copts

Thank you, sheenj!

[minasoliman]

His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy may have had good intentions with the power given to him to purge the Church of Protestant influences, but sadly his abused his power in purging anyone who disagrees with his own personal theology as well. 

[Suryoyutho]

Thank you for noticing CoptoGeek and for the answers (sheenj, minasoliman). It is fixed on returntoorthodoxy.com, I will message abouna Peter.

[CoptoGeek]

His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy may have had good intentions with the power given to him to purge the Church of Protestant influences, but sadly his abused his power in purging anyone who disagrees with his own personal theology as well. 

I completely agree. He needs to quietly retire to a monastery and the Church needs to re-open all the cases he's brought before the Holy Synod.

[Stavro]

It is easy to blame Anba Bishoy for everything wrong because he is not popular.

Not a single excommunication or suspension from office was decided by anything less than overwhelming majority of the Synod. The most controversial one of Dr George Bebawy was not brought up by Anba Bishoy. It was raised by the previous Pope who wrote the list of accusations against Bebawy in early 80's.

The suspension of Anba Amon of Luxor was the direct result of Anba Youaness' effort.

The most troubling decision of the Synod to anathematize the book " illuminating saying " was taken with the concurrence of every single attending Bishop. The issue was brought up by Anba Moussa.

It is well known that Anba Bishoy wanted to put Priests Ma7'ary Younan and Samaan of Mukatam on trial for heresy. I wish he did, but he was never able to. He was opposed by the Pope and the other bishops.

Now that he has been stripped of his power, let us attribute all errors to him in order to excuse the rest.

[Jonathan]

There is more than enough blame to go around for the past. Anba Bishoy's latest articles, and his working with Anba Ermia are damaging right now. If only H.E. would address the level of attention against Abouna Makari and Abouna Samaan that is being addressed against the Pope and against Orthodoxy.

It is easy to blame Anba Bishoy for everything wrong because he is not popular.

Not a single excommunication or suspension from office was decided by anything less than overwhelming majority of the Synod. The most controversial one of Dr George Bebawy was not brought up by Anba Bishoy. It was raised by the previous Pope who wrote the list of accusations against Bebawy in early 80's.

The suspension of Anba Amon of Luxor was the direct result of Anba Youaness' effort.

The most troubling decision of the Synod to anathematize the book " illuminating saying " was taken with the concurrence of every single attending Bishop. The issue was brought up by Anba Moussa.

It is well known that Anba Bishoy wanted to put Priests Ma7'ary Younan and Samaan of Mukatam on trial for heresy. I wish he did, but he was never able to. He was opposed by the Pope and the other bishops.

Now that he has been stripped of his power, let us attribute all errors to him in order to excuse the rest.

[Antonious Nikolas]

It is well known that Anba Bishoy wanted to put Priests Ma7'ary Younan and Samaan of Mukatam on trial for heresy. I wish he did, but he was never able to. He was opposed by the Pope and the other bishops.

What were these priests teaching that was heretical?  Where can I find details about H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy's investigation?

There is more than enough blame to go around for the past. Anba Bishoy's latest articles, and his working with Anba Ermia are damaging right now. If only H.E. would address the level of attention against Abouna Makari and Abouna Samaan that is being addressed against the Pope and against Orthodoxy.

What does the bolded bit mean?  What statements have been made against His Holiness the Pope?

[Jonathan]

Abouna Makari Younan is well known to teach millennialism. Both of them conduct evangelical style public exorcisms. You can search youtube and watch these services. The differences between a true exorcism and these, which could as easily be broadcast live from an evangelical service, are obvious, and you can judge for yourself. It is sad that this is occuring in the Hanging  Church, where the Theotokos appeared to Pope Abraam and told him to go to St. Samaan, and in the Church of the mountain that was moved through the prayers of St. Samaan.

The errors of George Bebawai, posted on H.E.'s website, accuses him of running the Church secretly, from his excommunication, with H.H. as his puppet. (how on earth he would arrange that is beyond me, but presumably it has something with him being a Jew). In recent conferences it has been implied or stated that H.H. is turning the church over to the macarians (who are of course byzantine heretics), the byzantines, and the Catholics.

A wounded animal is very dangers, striking wildly.

[Antonious Nikolas]

Abouna Makari Younan is well known to teach millennialism. Both of them conduct evangelical style public exorcisms. You can search youtube and watch these services. The differences between a true exorcism and these, which could as easily be broadcast live from an evangelical service, are obvious, and you can judge for yourself. It is sad that this is occuring in the Hanging  Church, where the Theotokos appeared to Pope Abraam and told him to go to St. Samaan, and in the Church of the mountain that was moved through the prayers of St. Samaan.

God have mercy on His Church.  I wish that His Eminence - or someone in authority - would take the appropriate actions to curtail this madness.  Why isn't this being stopped?  Orthodox priests shouldn't be able to preach Protestant doctrine or carry out Protestant practices without it being properly addressed and publically refuted.  I'd really like to know why the hierarchy isn't cracking down on this.  I'm sure the response will have something to do with the persecution, but without minimizing that horrible reality, that does not and should not mean that teachers of heresy (and both millennialism and Charismatic services of any sort, including exorcisms, constitute exactly that) should be given carte blanche.

The errors of George Bebawai, posted on H.E.'s website, accuses him of running the Church secretly, from his excommunication, with H.H. as his puppet. (how on earth he would arrange that is beyond me, but presumably it has something with him being a Jew).

This is referring exclusively to His Holiness Pope Tawadros II, corrrect?  In other words, the supposed collusion is not alleged to have taken place until relatively recently?

In recent conferences it has been implied or stated that H.H. is turning the church over to the macarians (who are of course byzantine heretics), the byzantines, and the Catholics.

Who precisely are the Macarians and how are they distinct from the Byzantines proper?  Are these Copts with Byzantine leanings?

[Jonathan]

This is referring exclusively to His Holiness Pope Tawadros II, corrrect?  In other words, the supposed collusion is not alleged to have taken place until relatively recently?

Who precisely are the Macarians and how are they distinct from the Byzantines proper?  Are these Copts with Byzantine leanings?

Yes, H.H. Pope Tawadros II.

Followers of / readers of/ people of the same school as Abouna Matta el Meskeen, the late abbot of St. Macarius' monastery.

[Antonious Nikolas]

Thanks for the info, Jonathan.  I wish someone was able to answer my other question though:

Why isn't this being stopped?  Orthodox priests shouldn't be able to preach Protestant doctrine or carry out Protestant practices without it being properly addressed and publically refuted.  I'd really like to know why the hierarchy isn't cracking down on this.  I'm sure the response will have something to do with the persecution, but without minimizing that horrible reality, that does not and should not mean that teachers of heresy (and both millennialism and Charismatic services of any sort, including exorcisms, constitute exactly that) should be given carte blanche.

The fact that the hierarchy isn't coming down hard on Protestant influence makes it seem as if such activities have the Church's tacit approval and gives its proponents the wiggle room they need to continue in their dangerous activities.

[Stavro]

There is more than enough blame to go around for the past. Anba Bishoy's latest articles, and his working with Anba Ermia are damaging right now.

We are being selective in choosing who we want to attack and who we are going to excuse.

For years, Bishop Bachomius and his general bishop, Tawadrous, have been protecting Priest Anderawes Iskander, a priest in their diocese, and who is a heretic and denies the sacraments openly and attends all the Protestant prayers, from any trial. It is reported that Anba Bishoy wants to put him on trial, but the two have been opposing this move.

Abona Dawoud Lam3y, who has been attacked left and right for telling Orthodox youth not to attend Protestant prayers, is a priest in the diocese of the general bishop-made-pope Tawadrous. Not one single word of support by this general bishop, although the attacks were vicious and cruel, and made in public. What are the true colors of this man? Why isn't he saying anything?

The only moves he did is to go to Vatican and to establish a unity council with Protestants, giving credit to their claims of being one and further aiding them in destroying the church. The only time he talked about Protestants was to mildly warn against them because of "identity" issues, never criticized their faith.  

The danger now, in this moment, is Protestantising the Coptic Church. Anba Bishoy, with all his mistakes and ego, cannot be blamed for this.

The fact that the hierarchy isn't coming down hard on Protestant influence makes it seem as if such activities have the Church's tacit approval and gives its proponents the wiggle room they need to continue in their dangerous activities.

 

Because the Hierarchy could be either:

1) Traitors or
2) Politicians (indifferent and pragmatic) or
3) Cowards or
4) Protestants (like Bishop Youaness, who was never baptized in an Orthodox church)  

 By now you should know that you can't call people heretics on the public boards.  You can disagree with their teachings, and even say they teach heresy, but you can't just say a person "is a heretic."  Consequently, you are back on post moderation for 30 days.
Salpy

[Jonathan]

Maybe if all the great teachers hadn't been driven to the fringe, or right out of the church by Anba Bishoy, there would be more knowledge and less need for a will to fight ignorance with trials

I'm actually pretty liberal in placing blame all around

I think it's to early to judge Pope Tawadros on this. We'll see if the house gets cleaned or not. H.H. may have different priorities and emphasize than me, but that's not on the same level as blackmail and summary excommunications.

I don't think it makes sense to blame the whole synod for past excommunications. Pope Shenouda basically made the decisions, and Anba Bishoy had his ear. I think it's fair to blame the Synod for yielding their authority and not living up to their responsibility, but I don't think they effectively had much say. Others made mistakes, and made decisions based on a less than developed understanding of Orthodoxy. But today, Anba Bishoy is disturbing the peace of the Church, and taking away an environment of peace where these things might be solved. When routing out Protestant influences is done in a way on par with the Inquisition, it's going to leave a bad taste for everyone. People who would otherwise support upholding Orthodoxy are going to be put off by the lack of charity in dealing with it.

[Gorazd]

Priest Anderawes Iskander, a priest in their diocese, and who is a heretic and denies the sacraments openly and attends all the Protestant prayers,

4) Protestants (like Bishop Youaness, who was never baptized in an Orthodox church)  

Can you or anyone else please write more details about these two clergymen?

[CoptoGeek]

Abouna Makari Younan is well known to teach millennialism. 

Yes, you are correct. I thought he was confronted on this and recanted this belief but it doesn't seem to be so.

Both of them conduct evangelical style public exorcisms. You can search youtube and watch these services. The differences between a true exorcism and these, which could as easily be broadcast live from an evangelical service, are obvious, and you can judge for yourself.

I guess these were just "charismatic" or "evangelical" services, too.

Exorcisms in Russia: From an Eyewitness

When I was in Russian, I stayed near a monastery where a priest lived who performed exorcisms. The rite of exorcism in the Orthodox Church is a formal service that has been the same for centuries. It includes generous amount of holy water, and is highlighted by the reading of the Gospel passages wherein Christ drives the demons out of people and demonstrates His authority over them. Just as the demons in the Gospels wail and lament when Christ appears, so they wail during these services.

Once the services are in full swing, the demons being to show themselves. One woman rages in a male voice, another person shakes violently, another shrieks in fear, yet another is thrown to the floor, losing consciousness. They scream their hatred for the priest, vowing to have their revenge as he douses them with holy water. Some demons make jokes some sound like dissatisfied customers (“I don’t have to take this!”), others are just raw anger and hatred. But the loudest noise always seems to be that of animals: mooing, crowing, and especially barking and growling.

Not all of the victims were adults. I saw one young girl being dragged and carried up to the priest. She was flailing and howling and wailing. When the priest finally came close enough to douse her with holy water, she moaned in a ghostly voice, which trailed off as she stopped her thrashing, finally collapsing. I saw another boy, held in his mother’s arms, who has the appearance of a poor, special ed. Child. He looked as though he was in distress and pain, just before he vomited on the floor.

Everywhere wailing, moaning, barking, convulsions, shrieking. It was a vision of hell. “Yes, you may attend,” the priest permitted me after I asked to witness and exorcism, “But stand near the icon of the Mother of God, and say the Jesus Prayer (‘Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner’).” This is not something to be taken lightly. It is not a horror film, not a ghost story, but pure evil tormenting real human beings.

Naturally, I could not help but wonder why these people are possessed. But it is not right to inquire—they are sufferer and it is not for me to judge. But there are cases when the demon itself provides the answer. One woman was being exorcised when, to the priest’s astonishment, the demon informed him that God Himself does not will that she be released, “She killed three babies in her womb,” the demon revealed, “I am here to punish her.” Very many ended up in their pitiful state after going to “psychic healers.” They had turned to these so-called healers with some physical illness, or simply in search of pseudo-spirituality, and received some relief of fulfillment. But then they became demonically possessed, for the “healing” or “experience” was made possible solely through the psychic’s own pacts with demonic powers. These people, however, were impossible to help if they were not prepared to abandon the pseudo-spirituality and embrace the spiritual life of the Church, putting their trust in Christ

...

The service concludes and I am in awe. The priest’s countenance us one of intense concentration, authority and sternness. Throughout the service he held the holy water sprinkler like I mighty whip; now he holds the cross as an invincible shield and a trophy of victory. His long, grey hair is a bit tousled, and sweat glistens on his forehead. Those poor people kiss the cross and clamor desperately to receive his blessing, then gradually leave the church. They feel better. In spite of the demon’s torment during the service, they now feel relieved and strengthened. They can go on, they are no longer overcome by despair.

Some people come to the exorcisms thinking that they are possessed, but they are not—it is a sort of spiritual hypochondria. Others speak blasphemies against God and man, not realizing whose mouthpiece they are being, and therefore will not even consider going to church. But wonders never cease. Once when the Communists were in power, some top party members were “touring” the monastery, laughing at its out datedness. One of these happened into the church where an exorcism was taking place. You can imagine the confusion that ensued when she began crowing involuntarily, like a rooster. She realized her great mistake in denying God, and became a Christian.

http://deathtotheworld.com/articles/exorcisms-in-russia-from-an-eyewitness/

[Antonious Nikolas]

Priest Anderawes Iskander, a priest...who is a heretic and denies the sacraments openly and attends all the Protestant prayers

God have mercy!  How is it possible for someone to remain a priest under these circumstances?!?

The danger now, in this moment, is Protestantising the Coptic Church. Anba Bishoy, with all his mistakes and ego, cannot be blamed for this.

 

I agree.  The two issues are not equivalent to my mind.  On the one hand, we have a bishop who some regard as being a bit highhanded, et cetera, and on the other we have the putrifying, vomit-inducing poison of Evangelical and Charismatic Protestant faith and practice seeping into our Church to destroy it from the inside out.

Protestants (like Bishop Youaness, who was never baptized in an Orthodox church)

Can this really be true?  God have mercy, every day I hear something horrible I never would have believed to be true about my beloved Church.

Abouna Makari Younan is well known to teach millennialism. 

Yes, you are correct. I thought he was confronted on this and recanted this belief but it doesn't seem to be so.

Under what circumstances did you hear he was confronted and recanted?  Why do you now believe this is not so?

I am awestruck that an Orthodox priest could openly teach heresy and not be confronted about it and given the chance to repent.

[Stavro]

H.H. may have different priorities

Priorities over protecting the Orthodox Faith? I think you are right. The General Bishop / Pope must have other priorities over the Faith. This is clear.

I think it's to early to judge Pope Tawadros on this.

I thought that the idea that they marketed regarding the general bishop-becoming-Pope is his alleged experience. This man has been GB for 23 years before he took over the Papacy. He is not a new fella or a saintly monk who came from a desert and who can be excused for the lack of action by his inexperience and needing time to settle in.

In any case, we have a clear situation regarding Priest Anderawes Iskander. I do not need to elaborate about his unorthodox character and teachings. He has been serving in Behera, under Metro. Bachomius since 1988, having been chosen and ordained by this metropolitan. He served under GB Tawadros since 1989. For 23 years, this priest served under the previous placeholder for Papacy, Metro. Bachomius and GB Tawadrous, the current Pope. They have given him the liberty to teach heresy and to participate in Protestant prayer meetings.

For 23 years !

Now the Orthodox had enough of this priest who is gaining more and more media exposure and is clear about denying the sacraments, among other heresies. He is praying with heretics in front of the satellite TV channels. Did the Metro. and the GB do anything about it? No. They are silent and they continue to support the man.

The episcopate of Aswan has issued a statement to clarify that this priest, Anderawes Iskander, has participated in a "unity" conference with Protestant in the city, without the knowledge of the bishop of the city. The statement condemned this priest for his activities.

To which the priest replied in a counter statement:
" I preach Christ from any place. I am a priest in the Coptic Church. I know the Pope since our days of service even before our respective ordinations and we have a great relation ever since. Put me on trial, if you dare."

The man is right and can afford to be insolent, because he is protected by his old friends and he knows that the GB/Pope will support him and will not allow the trial to take place. 

Now if someone criticises His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy for calling out this priest and other priests for their heresy, and you side with the GB / Pope and Metro. Bach. and give them excuses, then this person is an partner in the crime.

[Stavro]

Thanks to the 3 days fasting and to the efforts of Anba Bishoy, who lobbied against the GB / Pope and his godfather, Metro Bachomius, for protecting Protestant priests, and probably with pressure from Anba Rofael, Metro Bachomius was forced today to issue a statement to temporarily suspend the priest Anderawes Iskander.

Finally a Protestant lovers like Metro Bachomius and the puppet Pope are subdued after their long active protection of this priest.

[Severian]

^Glory be to God! I am certainly no fan of Anba Bishoy, but at least he isn't defending a heretic who openly denies the mysteries. The battle against heresy we face as Orthodox Christians of the Church of Alexandria is far greater than any war fought with weapons. However, it is a war we must win. Not because it will be easy, but because we have to, because the salvation of millions depends upon it.

[Antonious Nikolas]

It's sad that this is necessary.  I'm by no means happy to see anyone publically disciplined.  May God have mercy on Abouna and lead him to true repentance and to embrace Orthodoxy.  I give glory to God that He is moving His servants the bishops to act for the preservation of the true Faith that He established for us.  May God have mercy on all involved, strengthen His bishops for the work they have to do, give those who have embraced Protestant practices, materials, and other errors a heart for repentance and a love for Orthodoxy in all things, and preserve His Church against heresy.  Kyrie eleison, kyrie eleison, kyrie eleison.

[qawe]

Abouna Makari Younan is well known to teach millennialism. 

Can someone please post some video/other evidence of this?

[CharalambisMakarios]

I'm sorry that my home tradition is being idiotic and immature and trying to "convert" fellow Christians 

[minasoliman]

Your home is with the Kingdom of God in the fullness of His Church 

[Antonious Nikolas]

I'm sorry that my home tradition is being idiotic and immature and trying to "convert" fellow Christians 

It's more the fault of our Church than the fault of anyone in your old tradition.  If we were properly educating our faithful and inoculating them against the sickness of heterodoxy, we wouldn't be in this mess.  You can't "convert" an Orthodox Christian who actually knows their faith, or convince them that taking a bit of poison with their milk is a good thing.

[xOrthodox4Christx]

I'm sorry that my home tradition is being idiotic and immature and trying to "convert" fellow Christians 

I don't worry about converting others, more than I worry about how they (Protestants) consider themselves Christians and us, as polytheists. That ticks me off, since their "Christianity" didn't even exist until 1517. For 1500 years the Christianity that existed would be entirely alien to their sensibilities, and yet, they're the Christians, we're the polytheists.

[eddybear]

I'm sorry that my home tradition is being idiotic and immature and trying to "convert" fellow Christians 

I don't worry about converting others, more than I worry about how they (Protestants) consider themselves Christians and us, as polytheists. That ticks me off, since their "Christianity" didn't even exist until 1517. For 1500 years the Christianity that existed would be entirely alien to their sensibilities, and yet, they're the Christians, we're the polytheists.

Our experiences are very different. In almost 25 years of moving in Protestant / Anglican circles, I can't recall a single Protestant who considers Orthodox to be polytheists.

[Cyrillic]

I'm sorry that my home tradition is being idiotic and immature and trying to "convert" fellow Christians 

I don't worry about converting others, more than I worry about how they (Protestants) consider themselves Christians and us, as polytheists. That ticks me off, since their "Christianity" didn't even exist until 1517.

In the absence of Punch I'll say it: classical German Lutheranism is nothing like modern evangelicalism. The Evangelicals' brand of Christianity probably didn't exist before the mid-19th century.

[Cyrillic]

I'm sorry that my home tradition is being idiotic and immature and trying to "convert" fellow Christians 

It's more the fault of our Church than the fault of anyone in your old tradition.  If we were properly educating our faithful and inoculating them against the sickness of heterodoxy, we wouldn't be in this mess.  You can't "convert" an Orthodox Christian who actually knows their faith, or convince them that taking a bit of poison with their milk is a good thing.

If the Protestants are sincere in their religion you would expect them to want to convert everyone else in the same way that Orthodoxy wants to convert everyone else. "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations" and all that.

The Protestant missionaries in Egypt are cowards for not trying to convert the muslims before starting with the Copts, though.

[Antonious Nikolas]

I'm sorry that my home tradition is being idiotic and immature and trying to "convert" fellow Christians 

It's more the fault of our Church than the fault of anyone in your old tradition.  If we were properly educating our faithful and inoculating them against the sickness of heterodoxy, we wouldn't be in this mess.  You can't "convert" an Orthodox Christian who actually knows their faith, or convince them that taking a bit of poison with their milk is a good thing.

If the Protestants are sincere in their religion you would expect them to want to convert everyone else in the same way that Orthodoxy wants to convert everyone else. "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations" and all that.

The Protestant missionaries in Egypt are cowards for not trying to convert the muslims before starting with the Copts, though.

Agreed on both counts.  If they believe they have the true, salvific faith and we are endangering our souls by engaging in idol worship, I don't blame them for trying to convert us.  They think they are doing us the greatest of favors.  This is why I - unlike many Orthodox - believe that we should be witnessing to the heterodox whenever possible.

I do blame, however, those among the "Orthodox" who hold to a skewed ecclesiology which proclaims that "we are all one in Jesus" and "we're all parts of the Church" regardless of confession, that the differences between Evangelicalism and Orthodoxy are "largely cultural" and that heteropraxis can be appended to orthopraxis willy-nilly Frankenstein style.  The man I wish to address with the project outlined in the OP is not the sincere Protestant, but the deluded, nominally Orthodox Christian who believes in one-size-fits-all brand x Christianity.

[LoveJoyPeace]

I've been hearing things like this recently, and it is very concerning to me. Do you think this is a church wide issue, or primarily in those diocese in the West where there is more exposure to Protestantism?

Also, do you think the EO/OO schism does play a role in this? Do you think it would be beneficial/strengthening to do everything we can without compromising truth to enter into communion with the EO?

It sometimes seems to me as though EO has more firmly established doctrines that are more readily found. I often notice that when I have a question about the Orthodox view on things, i am looking to EO sources because i cannot find anything OO discussing the topic outside of maybe a few forum posts, which are not really reliable dogmatic sources.

[qawe]

I've been hearing things like this recently, and it is very concerning to me. Do you think this is a church wide issue, or primarily in those diocese in the West where there is more exposure to Protestantism?

Definitely church wide.  Egypt is probably worse than the West.

With the EO thing, the grass is always greener as they say, but on this particular issue they are doing much better than the Copts.

[LoveJoyPeace]

Egypt is probably worse than the West.

Why would Egypt be worse then the West? I don't understand.

[RaphaCam]

It sometimes seems to me as though EO has more firmly established doctrines that are more readily found. I often notice that when I have a question about the Orthodox view on things, i am looking to EO sources because i cannot find anything OO discussing the topic outside of maybe a few forum posts, which are not really reliable dogmatic sources.

EO sources in English are much more accessible, numerous and online-published than OO ones, but if you dig hard enough, you can find plenty of OO books discussing doctrine, history, etc.

[qawe]

Egypt is probably worse than the West.

Why would Egypt be worse then the West? I don't understand.

Coptic churches in Egypt imitate Egyptian Protestant churches to stop youth from going there.  Usually when Coptic youth in the West leave the Church they don't end up as Protestants but as nones, but most conversions in Egypt are to Protestantism.

[youssef]

The influence is not always bad.

[NicholasMyra]

The influence is not always bad.

It depends on what you think is good.

[Volnutt]

The influence is not always bad.

I wouldn't even say that back when I was a committed Protestant. Theological integrity aside (as though one could really ever say that), it's importing the absolute worst of Western Evangelical art.

[LoveJoyPeace]

Egypt is probably worse than the West.

Why would Egypt be worse then the West? I don't understand.

Coptic churches in Egypt imitate Egyptian Protestant churches to stop youth from going there.  Usually when Coptic youth in the West leave the Church they don't end up as Protestants but as nones, but most conversions in Egypt are to Protestantism.

Wow I would really think this would have been more of a Western issue. Doesn't Protestantism like barely have a presence in Egypt?

[youssef]

The influence is not always bad.

I wouldn't even say that back when I was a committed Protestant. Theological integrity aside (as though one could really ever say that), it's importing the absolute worst of Western Evangelical art.

Most of the influence and not really dangerous and are fine. There is some influence who are dangerous.
The essential question we should ask why the Protestant church are geting more people in Egypt.we cannot just demonise the people who get out.
I really want to say that the existing of this influence can lead to some change that the church need it.

[Volnutt]

The influence is not always bad.

I wouldn't even say that back when I was a committed Protestant. Theological integrity aside (as though one could really ever say that), it's importing the absolute worst of Western Evangelical art.

Most of the influence and not really dangerous and are fine. There is some influence who are dangerous.
The essential question we should ask why the Protestant church are geting more people in Egypt.we cannot just demonise the people who get out.
I really want to say that the existing of this influence can lead to some change that the church need it.

Because bad taste is in this year (and every year)?

Individuals make religious decisions for all kinds of personal reasons truly known only to them and God. But relentlessly chasing after marketing fads to try and retain absolutely everybody who might possibly feel unsatisfied at any time will just result in a church full of shallow, perpetually unsatisfied people.

Heresy considerations aside, why would you even want to stand around a stage while some two-bit guitar ensemble plinks out "Lord I Lift Your Name on High" when the Orthodox Liturgy is some of the most beautiful poetry and stagecraft ever devised by mankind? From where I'm sitting, having been raised on KLOVE dreck, it seems baffling. It's like giving away one's birthright for a pot of bad tasting beans that probably won't even keep people in the cafeteria in the first place, if I can mix my metaphors.

[youssef]

The influence is not always bad.

I wouldn't even say that back when I was a committed Protestant. Theological integrity aside (as though one could really ever say that), it's importing the absolute worst of Western Evangelical art.

Most of the influence and not really dangerous and are fine. There is some influence who are dangerous.
The essential question we should ask why the Protestant church are geting more people in Egypt.we cannot just demonise the people who get out.
I really want to say that the existing of this influence can lead to some change that the church need it.

Because bad taste is in this year (and every year)?

Individuals make religious decisions for all kinds of personal reasons truly known only to them and God. But relentlessly chasing after marketing fads to try and retain absolutely everybody who might possibly feel unsatisfied at any time will just result in a church full of shallow, perpetually unsatisfied people.

Heresy considerations aside, why would you even want to stand around a stage while some two-bit guitar ensemble plinks out "Lord I Lift Your Name on High" when the Orthodox Liturgy is some of the most beautiful poetry and stagecraft ever devised by mankind? From where I'm sitting, having been raised on KLOVE dreck, it seems baffling. It's like giving away one's birthright for a pot of bad tasting beans that probably won't even keep people in the cafeteria in the first place, if I can mix my metaphors.

Here what you are talking is a personal taste of view. You will like the Islamic way of reciting for example because it is similar to what you like in orthodoxy.
But the use of a guitar is not problematic it also can be beautiful. Form is not the essential thing in christianity, the Jewish concentrating on the form and Jesus criticise that.
For me Ifeel that the gospel music is the best and most bbeautiful thing between Christians
The people who are leave and go to the Protestant not for liturgical issue..

[Volnutt]

The influence is not always bad.

I wouldn't even say that back when I was a committed Protestant. Theological integrity aside (as though one could really ever say that), it's importing the absolute worst of Western Evangelical art.

Most of the influence and not really dangerous and are fine. There is some influence who are dangerous.
The essential question we should ask why the Protestant church are geting more people in Egypt.we cannot just demonise the people who get out.
I really want to say that the existing of this influence can lead to some change that the church need it.

Because bad taste is in this year (and every year)?

Individuals make religious decisions for all kinds of personal reasons truly known only to them and God. But relentlessly chasing after marketing fads to try and retain absolutely everybody who might possibly feel unsatisfied at any time will just result in a church full of shallow, perpetually unsatisfied people.

Heresy considerations aside, why would you even want to stand around a stage while some two-bit guitar ensemble plinks out "Lord I Lift Your Name on High" when the Orthodox Liturgy is some of the most beautiful poetry and stagecraft ever devised by mankind? From where I'm sitting, having been raised on KLOVE dreck, it seems baffling. It's like giving away one's birthright for a pot of bad tasting beans that probably won't even keep people in the cafeteria in the first place, if I can mix my metaphors.

Here what you are talking is a personal taste of view. You will like the Islamic way of reciting for example because it is similar to what you like in orthodoxy.
But the use of a guitar is not problematic it also can be beautiful.

Sure can be, yes. Most often isn't.

99% of CCM (even when it isn't outright heretical from an Orthodox standpoint) is poorly written, poorly performed, homogenized, corporate as heck, and emotionally manipulative.

This is a joke, yes, but it has a lot of truth in it. Do you really want to open the Sturgeon's Law floodgates just for an off chance of getting a few Michael Card songs in the liturgy?

Form is not the essential thing in christianity, the Jewish concentrating on the form and Jesus criticise that.
For me Ifeel that the gospel music is the best and most bbeautiful thing between Christians

No, Jesus criticized hypocrisy and lack of love and mercy. He was not anti-liturgy, he was anti-empty liturgy.

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.

Emphasis mine.

“‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;

Yet he also said to His Jewish hearers that:

“The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. They do all their deeds to be seen by others.

Emphasis mine.

Forms are not everything, yes. But they are still important carriers of theological content.

The people who are leave and go to the Protestant not for liturgical issue..

I know they don't. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that most of the time it's really something to do with one or more of the "pelvic issues." I'd be lying if I said I didn't personally sympathize, but going Low Church pedestrian is just going to make everything far worse (as well as not really addressing the issues behind the dissatisfaction, since I'm guessing that most of the growing Evangelical churches in Egypt are pretty socially conservative anyway).