Author Topic: If EO and OO confess the same faith...  (Read 1731 times)

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Offline byhisgrace

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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #90 on: May 01, 2015, 08:09:17 PM »
I guess I'll just stick with the EO Church and its fast, then.
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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #91 on: May 01, 2015, 08:23:59 PM »
If you are really struggling between EO and OO, my personal advice would be to study Chalcedon and make a decision based on that, because that is really the only significant difference. In my opinion, both miaphysite and dyophysite explanations of the divinity and humanity of Christ are legitimate. I attend an EO parish because it is the closest. If an OO parish was closest, I would probably go there. Fasting rules are so far down on the list of differences that bringing them into the realm of consideration between the two is not beneficial at all.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 08:25:18 PM by TheTrisagion »
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

Offline byhisgrace

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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #92 on: May 01, 2015, 09:24:39 PM »
If you are really struggling between EO and OO, my personal advice would be to study Chalcedon and make a decision based on that, because that is really the only significant difference. In my opinion, both miaphysite and dyophysite explanations of the divinity and humanity of Christ are legitimate. I attend an EO parish because it is the closest. If an OO parish was closest, I would probably go there. Fasting rules are so far down on the list of differences that bringing them into the realm of consideration between the two is not beneficial at all.

Yes, I too believe that both Churches confess the same faith.


To Mina, Mor, Wgw, and any OO's I forgot to name: Thank you all for the good and helpful answers! I pray that reunion will happen within our lifetimes.
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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #93 on: May 01, 2015, 09:38:59 PM »
If you are really struggling between EO and OO, my personal advice would be to study Chalcedon and make a decision based on that, because that is really the only significant difference. In my opinion, both miaphysite and dyophysite explanations of the divinity and humanity of Christ are legitimate. I attend an EO parish because it is the closest. If an OO parish was closest, I would probably go there. Fasting rules are so far down on the list of differences that bringing them into the realm of consideration between the two is not beneficial at all.

To me it came down to:

1. Catholicity (Chalcedon)

2. Orthodoxy (Chalcedon, I am ultimately convinced that OOs and EOs are both Orthodox.)

3. Apostolicity (Which Church kept a better line of succession?)

4. Schism (Who schismed from who?)

5. Theistic worldview (If God is involved in history, how would His Church act in the world?)

6. Proximity (Which is most feasible/convenient?)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 09:41:27 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #94 on: May 01, 2015, 09:41:20 PM »
So your Roman Catholic?  ;)
Guys! They're not intercoursing. It's just an unfortunate angle.

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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #95 on: May 01, 2015, 09:46:19 PM »
So your Roman Catholic?  ;)

No, the Pope isn't infallible.  ;)

Quote from: Acts of Constantinople III 681
We find that these documents [including those of Honorius] are quite foreign to the apostolic dogmas, to the declarations of the holy Councils, and to all the accepted Fathers, and that they follow the false teachings of the heretics…there shall be expelled from the holy Church of God and anathematized Honorius who was some time Pope of Old Rome, because of what we found written by him to Sergius, that in all respects he followed his view and confirmed his impious doctrines…To Honorius, the heretic, anathema!… [The devil] has actively employed them [including Honorius]…we slew them [including Honorius] with anathema, as lapsed from the faith and as sinners, in the morning outside the camp of the tabernacle of God.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 09:46:37 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #96 on: May 01, 2015, 09:49:06 PM »
If you are really struggling between EO and OO, my personal advice would be to study Chalcedon and make a decision based on that, because that is really the only significant difference. In my opinion, both miaphysite and dyophysite explanations of the divinity and humanity of Christ are legitimate. I attend an EO parish because it is the closest. If an OO parish was closest, I would probably go there. Fasting rules are so far down on the list of differences that bringing them into the realm of consideration between the two is not beneficial at all.

To me it came down to:

1. Catholicity (Chalcedon)

2. Orthodoxy (Chalcedon, I am ultimately convinced that OOs and EOs are both Orthodox.)

3. Apostolicity (Which Church kept a better line of succession?)

4. Schism (Who schismed from who?)

5. Theistic worldview (If God is involved in history, how would His Church act in the world?)

6. Proximity (Which is most feasible/convenient?)

Be careful with #5 though. I've heard Protestant apologists use Max Weber to argue that Calvinism is the true faith because Capitalism! And 'Murica!
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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #97 on: May 01, 2015, 10:44:21 PM »
If you are really struggling between EO and OO, my personal advice would be to study Chalcedon and make a decision based on that, because that is really the only significant difference. In my opinion, both miaphysite and dyophysite explanations of the divinity and humanity of Christ are legitimate. I attend an EO parish because it is the closest. If an OO parish was closest, I would probably go there. Fasting rules are so far down on the list of differences that bringing them into the realm of consideration between the two is not beneficial at all.

To me it came down to:

1. Catholicity (Chalcedon)

2. Orthodoxy (Chalcedon, I am ultimately convinced that OOs and EOs are both Orthodox.)

3. Apostolicity (Which Church kept a better line of succession?)

4. Schism (Who schismed from who?)

5. Theistic worldview (If God is involved in history, how would His Church act in the world?)

6. Proximity (Which is most feasible/convenient?)

Be careful with #5 though. I've heard Protestant apologists use Max Weber to argue that Calvinism is the true faith because Capitalism! And 'Murica!

I'll clarify... These are the criterion I used after already decided to become Orthodox. I use separate criterion for Protestantism and Roman Catholicism.

Anyway, using Max Weber or capitalism to prove any point is not praiseworthy. You might as well use the Satanic Bible or the Qur'an as evidence.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 10:54:00 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline wgw

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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #98 on: May 01, 2015, 11:36:14 PM »
And once again now that the OP had their question answered this theead descends into EOs going on ad Nauseum about how awesome Chalcedon is and how thankful hey are not to be counted among "the Orientals."  I daresay this thread has reached the end of its natural life and serves no further purpose.
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Offline wgw

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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #99 on: May 01, 2015, 11:38:17 PM »
If you are really struggling between EO and OO, my personal advice would be to study Chalcedon and make a decision based on that, because that is really the only significant difference. In my opinion, both miaphysite and dyophysite explanations of the divinity and humanity of Christ are legitimate. I attend an EO parish because it is the closest. If an OO parish was closest, I would probably go there. Fasting rules are so far down on the list of differences that bringing them into the realm of consideration between the two is not beneficial at all.

Yes, I too believe that both Churches confess the same faith.


To Mina, Mor, Wgw, and any OO's I forgot to name: Thank you all for the good and helpful answers! I pray that reunion will happen within our lifetimes.

You're very welcome.   :).  You have no follow up questions just to check? 

Remember there is also the "Minor OO questions" thread if this gets locked (due to nothing your fault at all, we appreciate you stopping by and putting up with us  :) ) ?
Antisemitism, racism and prejudicial nationalism should have no place in Orthodoxy.  For to paraphrase  St. Paul, there is neither Jew nor Greek, neither male nor female, slave or freeman, in the Christian Church.

Offline byhisgrace

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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #100 on: May 01, 2015, 11:41:19 PM »
If you are really struggling between EO and OO, my personal advice would be to study Chalcedon and make a decision based on that, because that is really the only significant difference. In my opinion, both miaphysite and dyophysite explanations of the divinity and humanity of Christ are legitimate. I attend an EO parish because it is the closest. If an OO parish was closest, I would probably go there. Fasting rules are so far down on the list of differences that bringing them into the realm of consideration between the two is not beneficial at all.

Yes, I too believe that both Churches confess the same faith.


To Mina, Mor, Wgw, and any OO's I forgot to name: Thank you all for the good and helpful answers! I pray that reunion will happen within our lifetimes.

You're very welcome.   :).  You have no follow up questions just to check? 

Remember there is also the "Minor OO questions" thread if this gets locked (due to nothing your fault at all, we appreciate you stopping by and putting up with us  :) ) ?
Nope, no follow-up questions, at the moment.
Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us.

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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #101 on: May 01, 2015, 11:44:22 PM »
And once again now that the OP had their question answered this theead descends into EOs going on ad Nauseum about how awesome Chalcedon is and how thankful hey are not to be counted among "the Orientals."  I daresay this thread has reached the end of its natural life and serves no further purpose.

I hope that's not how I came off...  :-\
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Offline wgw

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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #102 on: May 02, 2015, 12:18:23 AM »
Alas,that's how it struck me, a list of reasons not to be Orthodox.  Now maybe I was unfair to you since you did say you believe we're both "ultimately Orthodox" (an ambiguous phrase perhaps but you obviously meant well$.  But you may note I have a short fuse after the initial hijacking of this thread by other EO posters, which was extremely annoying.  And which caused byhisgrace a huge delay in getting his question answered. 

Which I will note was a unanimous "that's fine."  I daresay the same question addressed to EOs would sadly produce a more variated response, including some Old Calendarists who would warn of the dangers of "world Orthodoxy" et cetera.  But I do think for all our faults we OOs have a somewhat harmonious worldview which allows for example someone to be unanimously commended into the hands of an Eastern Orthodox Church, and why to my knowledge at present we have only two active, and relatively minor schisms, one of which is being killed and one of which was indirectly caused by the evil Derg regime and the removal of the Derg appointed Ethiopian Abuna in a process of de-Dergification that not everyone in the diaspora agreed with, but I've heard progress is being made towards fixing that one as well.  But none of these are the result of any theological rupture.  Unless one wants to count the Maronite Schism or for that matter the Eastern Catholic breakaway groups, but in the case of the latter at least both EOs and OOs have that problem, and in the case of the former we seem to be getting along well with the Cardinal Patriarch of the Maronites.

So my point is, I think we can learn from the EO some things about the decoration of our churches, about music and musical styles, and the management of music and the integration of traditional uses, and especially from 18th century Athonite and 19th century Russian ascetics, works like the Philokalia, the Little Russian Philokalia, The Arena of St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, The Way of the Pilgrim, and a host of other fine works.  And I think the Eastern Orthodox can learn from us a measure of tolerance, patience, level headed was, and also perhaps how to encourage a high birth rate and high church attendance.  We have lots of kids in our churches whereas too many EO parishes in the diaspora at least seem like their congregation is ageing.  We need to work together to fix that, by encouraging young people to say in the EO churches, get married, and have children, perhaps with matchmaking and financial support services to take the fear out of the equation.  Church supported marriage and procreation, in a word, or five.
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Offline Shlomlokh

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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #103 on: May 02, 2015, 07:58:37 AM »
Nothing stops you from fasting except Pascha.  Right after which this awesome guy started a 55 day fast which will take him past Pentecost in honor of the genocide victims.
Isn't there a canon from Nicaea 1 that says no fasting (or kneeling) during Paschaltide?

In Christ,
Andrew
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #104 on: May 02, 2015, 08:43:12 AM »
Nothing stops you from fasting except Pascha.  Right after which this awesome guy started a 55 day fast which will take him past Pentecost in honor of the genocide victims.
Isn't there a canon from Nicaea 1 that says no fasting (or kneeling) during Paschaltide?

In Christ,
Andrew

I think the Copts and other OO may do that. The EO start the Wed/Fri fast again after Bright Week, though the tradition is to observe it more leniently until Pentecost, i.e. not till the ninth hour and with wine and oil.

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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #105 on: May 02, 2015, 08:57:26 AM »
Nothing stops you from fasting except Pascha.  Right after which this awesome guy started a 55 day fast which will take him past Pentecost in honor of the genocide victims.
Isn't there a canon from Nicaea 1 that says no fasting (or kneeling) during Paschaltide?

In Christ,
Andrew

I think the Copts and other OO may do that. The EO start the Wed/Fri fast again after Bright Week, though the tradition is to observe it more leniently until Pentecost, i.e. not till the ninth hour and with wine and oil.

Going by a pamphlet from the local parish, the Antiochian practice seems to be not to require fasting until the Ascension.

Also, for what it's worth, my Old Rite parish permits up to fish on fast days until the Apostle's Fast this year.
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Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #106 on: May 02, 2015, 09:00:28 AM »
Nothing stops you from fasting except Pascha.  Right after which this awesome guy started a 55 day fast which will take him past Pentecost in honor of the genocide victims.
Isn't there a canon from Nicaea 1 that says no fasting (or kneeling) during Paschaltide?

In Christ,
Andrew

I think the Copts and other OO may do that. The EO start the Wed/Fri fast again after Bright Week, though the tradition is to observe it more leniently until Pentecost, i.e. not till the ninth hour and with wine and oil.

Going by a pamphlet from the local parish, the Antiochian practice seems to be not to require fasting until the Ascension.

Also, for what it's worth, my Old Rite parish permits up to fish on fast days until the Apostle's Fast this year.

Russians seem more generous with the fish than Greeks. I suppose there's less tasty squid and cuttlefish in the frozen north. ;)

At St Markella's, they have a local tradition of allowing eggs and dairy too on Mid-Pentecost and the apodosis of Pascha. That doesn't seem to be universal; it might be a Chiote thing, since the original bishop and many of the families were from there.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2015, 09:01:51 AM by Jonathan Gress »

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #107 on: May 08, 2015, 04:20:03 AM »
Of course you can go in. But I went to a major US Coptic church once and they refused me communion. I am not really complaining, though it would have been nice.
Why would you want get communion from community that severed itself from the Catholic Church... lol ?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 04:20:45 AM by Vanhyo »

Offline rakovsky

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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #108 on: May 08, 2015, 04:33:13 AM »
Of course you can go in. But I went to a major US Coptic church once and they refused me communion. I am not really complaining, though it would have been nice.
Why would you want get communion from community that severed itself from the Catholic Church... lol ?
That is a question for the Polemics section.

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #109 on: May 08, 2015, 04:44:03 AM »
Of course you can go in. But I went to a major US Coptic church once and they refused me communion. I am not really complaining, though it would have been nice.
Why would you want get communion from community that severed itself from the Catholic Church... lol ?
That is a question for the Polemics section.

No its not, let me ask you a simple question, would you want to take communion in old calendarist movement ? We do have the same faith after all ?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 04:46:14 AM by Vanhyo »

Offline rakovsky

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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #110 on: May 08, 2015, 05:59:43 AM »
Of course you can go in. But I went to a major US Coptic church once and they refused me communion. I am not really complaining, though it would have been nice.
Why would you want get communion from community that severed itself from the Catholic Church... lol ?
That is a question for the Polemics section.

No its not, let me ask you a simple question, would you want to take communion in old calendarist movement ? We do have the same faith after all ?
I am OK with discussing it with you, and it's a good question, but if you want to do it on this thread, I want the moderators to OK that, based on what they said before in GREEN. (page 2)
« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 06:00:53 AM by rakovsky »

Offline wgw

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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #111 on: May 08, 2015, 06:37:11 AM »
I would ask out of respect for the Coptic and Ethiopian martyrs of Libya, and the Armenian and Shriac victims of the 1915 Ottoman and contemporary ISIL genocides and the state of churchwide mourning that you not wait for the moderators but hasten to repair to the private EO-OO Polemics forum, as I find Vanhyo's post deeply offensive within the Oriental Orthodox forum, as an unprovoked attack upon us in a controversial thread that I thought had died out or been locked.

The ecclesiological question of communion with someone not a part of the Church Catholic aside, the problem is the insistence that the Oriental Orthodox have separated ourselves from the Church Catholics.  This seems to me to be a cruel and petty thing to say; we could say the same thing about the Eastern Orthodox, but I don't see any of us doing that.  Mor Ephrem has extensively discussed this subject in polemics using the example of the old Calendarists and the specific case of the canonical isolation of ROCOR.  There is no need for that discussion to be repeated here and I do not believe it will enrich the life of the Oriental Orthodox forum or help foster loving relations between Eastern and Oriental Orthodox.
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Offline Vanhyo

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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #112 on: May 08, 2015, 07:29:03 AM »
@rakovsky Yeah it is probably not a good idea to discuss this here, you can massage me privately.

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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #113 on: May 08, 2015, 08:51:01 AM »
OO and EO do not share the same faith for 1500 years.
To quote a Bishop in my jurisdiction, "On the grass roots level, communion has been restored. When the people clamor enough, the Bishops will follow their lead in this matter."

I, for one, believe we confess the same faith.

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Offline wgw

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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #114 on: May 08, 2015, 09:13:57 AM »
Exciting to hear Primus!
Antisemitism, racism and prejudicial nationalism should have no place in Orthodoxy.  For to paraphrase  St. Paul, there is neither Jew nor Greek, neither male nor female, slave or freeman, in the Christian Church.

Offline biro

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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #115 on: May 08, 2015, 12:18:01 PM »
OO and EO do not share the same faith for 1500 years.
To quote a Bishop in my jurisdiction, "On the grass roots level, communion has been restored. When the people clamor enough, the Bishops will follow their lead in this matter."

I, for one, believe we confess the same faith.

PP

At my parish, years ago, the last person in line for Communion was introduced by the usher as "from the Armenian church"; Father said, "Let her come," and gave her Communion.

The sky did not fall. The bishop has never called to complain. We have functioned as normal since then.

Offline Salpy

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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #116 on: May 08, 2015, 09:24:20 PM »
Of course you can go in. But I went to a major US Coptic church once and they refused me communion. I am not really complaining, though it would have been nice.
Why would you want get communion from community that severed itself from the Catholic Church... lol ?
That is a question for the Polemics section.

No its not,

That's for me to decide.   :) 

Earlier when this thread began to wax polemical, I issued this warning:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,64642.msg1285914.html#msg1285914

I did that to cool things off, and I asked that people stay on topic. 

As I stated in the warning, you are entitled to opine that the OO's are not a part of the Church.  However, given the polemical history of this thread, and the warning I gave about staying on topic, it would not be wise to bring up a discussion of that opinion as a tangent to this thread.


Quote
let me ask you a simple question, would you want to take communion in old calendarist movement ? We do have the same faith after all ?

If you or someone else wants to start a different thread in the OO section to discuss the similarities and differences between the Old Calendarist Schism and the Chalcedonian Schism, that would be fine, as long as it remains non-polemical.  But please start a different thread.  I really want to keep this one on topic.

Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.
  :)

Offline minasoliman

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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #117 on: May 08, 2015, 09:28:28 PM »
OO and EO do not share the same faith for 1500 years.
To quote a Bishop in my jurisdiction, "On the grass roots level, communion has been restored. When the people clamor enough, the Bishops will follow their lead in this matter."

I, for one, believe we confess the same faith.

PP

I believe grass roots indeed is what will lead us to more communion.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #118 on: May 11, 2015, 11:54:38 AM »
OO and EO do not share the same faith for 1500 years.
To quote a Bishop in my jurisdiction, "On the grass roots level, communion has been restored. When the people clamor enough, the Bishops will follow their lead in this matter."

I, for one, believe we confess the same faith.

PP

At my parish, years ago, the last person in line for Communion was introduced by the usher as "from the Armenian church"; Father said, "Let her come," and gave her Communion.

The sky did not fall. The bishop has never called to complain. We have functioned as normal since then.
Its happened here too.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline minasoliman

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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #119 on: May 11, 2015, 12:00:24 PM »
I was offered to take communion at an Antiochian Orthodox parish, but out of respect for my bishop, I declined.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Antonis

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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #120 on: May 11, 2015, 12:10:52 PM »
I was offered to take communion at an Antiochian Orthodox parish, but out of respect for my bishop, I declined.
I was once offered to serve with the altar crew and commune at a hierarchical Coptic Liturgy but I did the same as you. :P
As I dissipate, Christ precipitates.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: If EO and OO confess the same faith...
« Reply #121 on: May 11, 2015, 12:12:49 PM »
I was given permission to enter the altar at a Greek Orthodox parish to greet a bishop I admire and love.  That was unexpected for me.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 12:13:28 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.