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Author Topic: Western Rite Ecclesiastical Music  (Read 1978 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 07, 2013, 03:18:16 AM »

Does anyone know where I can find any Western Rite hymns and music? Preferably, I'd like to know if I can find any that exist as MP3 files that I could download onto an iPhone as I cannot find any examples on iTunes, but even just listening to Western Rite hymns on Youtube or something else would be fine as well.
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« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2013, 06:29:23 AM »

Does anyone know where I can find any Western Rite hymns and music? Preferably, I'd like to know if I can find any that exist as MP3 files that I could download onto an iPhone as I cannot find any examples on iTunes, but even just listening to Western Rite hymns on Youtube or something else would be fine as well.

Youtube is filled with all kinds of Latin chant and there are several sites from which you can turn Youtube videos into mp3s.
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« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2013, 06:33:01 AM »

Does anyone know where I can find any Western Rite hymns and music? Preferably, I'd like to know if I can find any that exist as MP3 files that I could download onto an iPhone as I cannot find any examples on iTunes, but even just listening to Western Rite hymns on Youtube or something else would be fine as well.

Youtube is filled with all kinds of Latin chant and there are several sites from which you can turn Youtube videos into mp3s.

Not all Latin chants are orthodox. Even some of the more popular ones are often heretical.
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« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2013, 06:42:28 AM »

Not all Latin chants are orthodox. Even some of the more popular ones are often heretical.

*Shrugs* But many of them are.
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« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2013, 08:37:50 AM »

Does anyone know where I can find any Western Rite hymns and music? Preferably, I'd like to know if I can find any that exist as MP3 files that I could download onto an iPhone as I cannot find any examples on iTunes, but even just listening to Western Rite hymns on Youtube or something else would be fine as well.

Youtube is filled with all kinds of Latin chant and there are several sites from which you can turn Youtube videos into mp3s.

Not all Latin chants are orthodox. Even some of the more popular ones are often heretical.

Chant styles = heresy? Or do you mean hymnologyy may contain lyrics expressing heterodox teachings?
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« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2013, 09:00:59 AM »

Does anyone know where I can find any Western Rite hymns and music? Preferably, I'd like to know if I can find any that exist as MP3 files that I could download onto an iPhone as I cannot find any examples on iTunes, but even just listening to Western Rite hymns on Youtube or something else would be fine as well.

Youtube is filled with all kinds of Latin chant and there are several sites from which you can turn Youtube videos into mp3s.

Not all Latin chants are orthodox. Even some of the more popular ones are often heretical.

Chant styles = heresy? Or do you mean hymnologyy may contain lyrics expressing heterodox teachings?

The latter.
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« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2013, 10:06:41 AM »

Youtube is filled with all kinds of Latin chant and there are several sites from which you can turn Youtube videos into mp3s.

I'm aware of that, thank you. I'm not looking for Roman Catholic ecclesiastical music, I'm looking for music written/rewritten by honest-to-God Western Rite Orthodox Christians.
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« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2013, 10:22:33 AM »

Youtube is filled with all kinds of Latin chant and there are several sites from which you can turn Youtube videos into mp3s.

I'm aware of that, thank you. I'm not looking for Roman Catholic ecclesiastical music, I'm looking for music written/rewritten by honest-to-God Western Rite Orthodox Christians.

AFAIK that's what many Latin hymns are. See for example Victimae paschali laudes. IMO the most beautiful Christian hymn of all time.
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« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2013, 05:28:27 PM »

Youtube is filled with all kinds of Latin chant and there are several sites from which you can turn Youtube videos into mp3s.

I'm aware of that, thank you. I'm not looking for Roman Catholic ecclesiastical music, I'm looking for music written/rewritten by honest-to-God Western Rite Orthodox Christians.

A lot of WRO music is exactly the same as Anglican and Roman Catholic music. Some tweaking, some different translations, but very much the same. You might could find vids from St. Gregory the Great parish in Washington, D.C. or St. Mark's in Colorado, but WRO tend to be conservative and might not have taken to recording their liturgies. I've seen some odd Milan Synod (and other groups') liturgical snippets. Our Fr. Aidan from ROCOR had posted a while back a lovely Christmas introit, which was basically an English translation of the Latin.
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« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2013, 05:31:56 PM »

Actually, there are lots of WRO vids on You Tube. I just typed in "Western Rite Orthodox" and got this: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Western+Rite+Orthodox&oq=Western+Rite+Orthodox&gs_l=youtube.3...1964.1964.0.2232.1.1.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0...0.0...1ac.1.11.youtube.
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« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2013, 06:01:37 PM »

http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Culture.html

There are some mp3 recordings of Sarum Chant on this page.
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« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2013, 06:19:37 PM »

http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Culture.html

There are some mp3 recordings of Sarum Chant on this page.

Sounds almost exactly the same as the Gregorian style chants we used in the Lutheran Church before I became Orthodox.
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« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2013, 02:22:28 AM »


Well, I forgot about all of those videos, I must admit. My apologies.

That being said, I shouldn't have tried to be so soft in my initial message. I really am looking for Western Rite hymns in MP3 files that are clear and can go on an iPod. I could just convert a Youtube video of the Divine Liturgy of Saint Gregory, but the quality just isn't there. I mean, converted Youtube files just can't compete. Now, you still might think I'm odd for looking for Latin (or English) hymns sung and/or produced by Western Orthodox Christians. I'm being odd about it because I see it as my 99¢ or $1.29 going to a good place. Not that I object to paying Catholic organisations, no, not at all! I'd just rather see any money for an album going to my own people.

I realise that my response is incredibly convoluted. I'm sure that it barely makes any sense as is currently. I'll check this over in the morning and correct any and all errors.

http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Culture.html

There are some mp3 recordings of Sarum Chant on this page.

Oh, thank you, thank you very much!
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« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2013, 11:21:04 PM »

As far as latin goes, the skies the limit, there are hundreds of academic quality gregorian chant cd's out there, many of them somewhat obscure and hard to find, but those who collect them or did collect them in the 90's have great collections. Psaltis John Michael Boyer has a spectular collection of both byzantine and gregorian chant cd's (500 to 1000??) that he lets friends and visitors peruse through and listen to with permission.

Most university librarys that have good music schools have excellent selections of western chant cd's too.

However, as for English, I have come to the conclusion that there needs to be made a professional recording of the Office or Mass with english language gregorian chant sung well and as it would have been at least before the reformation (if not before the schism itself).

Dr. William Renwick is someone who'd be very happy to help produce such a cd. I suspect Capella Romana would also have an interest in this. It's reaching a point where this is an important step for showcasing a respectable and mature Western rite liturgy, as the hundreds of english language byzantine rite chant cd's have done to expose many to the Byzantine liturgies.

There's been english language chants recorded by anglicans over the years, but I'm not aware of a single cd that features it properly or exclusively, except for one....but it uses a poor translation!
However, here are two examples from the audio cassette that came with it, which I recorded a few years ago (back when the Roman Catholic Church (and many Anglican Churches) used the "intentionally less accurate" 1973 ICEL translations):

http://www.amazon.com/An-English-Kyriale-Music-Eucharist/dp/0005992699/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1373416732&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=An+english+kyriale

06 - GLORIA V - Salisbury V (Vatican V, PMMS IX) (12th c)
https://www.box.com/s/z9xjwqc810xtlzfhp3h2

15 - SANCTUS I - Salisbury I (Vatican II, PMMS I)
https://www.box.com/s/nyauqwjom4hkvne4dtkx

26 - AGNUS DEI I - Salisbury I (Vatican XII, PMMS I)
https://www.box.com/s/v4nesjbldi4v3kqszfde



The early organum and 2 voice polyphony from before 1300 AD can be especially interesting.
This one is from the 900's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGJvzJvqo_c
this one from the 1100's "In praise of St. John the Baptist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuMZEvg2fSk

 (Musica Enchiriadis, 9th century) - sequence: Rex caeli Domine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOMcd-O6Urs

This CD made by Mary Berry showcases even better pieces, though.
http://www.amazon.com/Christmas-Royal-Anglo-Saxon-Winchester-Century/dp/B000002GT7


The Rev. Benjamin Mayes, a Missouri Synod Lutheran minister did a fine job singing many divine office hymns and simple chants.
The only issue of notice is that a number of the hymn translations are not the most accurate paraphrased translations, but they're not too far off.

We praise Thee, O God (Te Deum laudamus) Mode III
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfSl9or0j3s
http://www.llpb.us/Seasonal%20Propers-Sung.htm
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« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2013, 11:40:55 PM »

Quote
Not all Latin chants are orthodox. Even some of the more popular ones are often heretical.

This is news to me.

I can think of a certain acclamation to the Pope in the "Christus Vincit" litany that would be seen that way, however, in all the chants I have ever seen (I've seen/sung thousands) that is extraordinarily rare circumstance.

 I would bet a million dollars that less than 1% of the Latin chants are heretical or inappropriate for Orthodox use.
NOT including post-schism saints. (Even than, what about them is heretical??? other than they are not recognized as saints by Our Church)
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« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2013, 11:12:28 PM »

Quote
Not all Latin chants are orthodox. Even some of the more popular ones are often heretical.

This is news to me.

I can think of a certain acclamation to the Pope in the "Christus Vincit" litany that would be seen that way, however, in all the chants I have ever seen (I've seen/sung thousands) that is extraordinarily rare circumstance.

 I would bet a million dollars that less than 1% of the Latin chants are heretical or inappropriate for Orthodox use.
NOT including post-schism saints. (Even than, what about them is heretical??? other than they are not recognized as saints by Our Church)


The doxology at the end of Veni Creator Spiritus needed changing due to a filioque interpolation or whatever.
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« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2013, 01:29:53 AM »

I do not believe that the filioque being suggested in a hymn is heretical, even if Rabanus Maurus may have intentionally composed it to suggest the orthodoxy of the filioque.

The only thing I believe is heretical is it's addition to the creed without the authority of an ecumenical council.

Quote
Sergei Bulgakov's work The Comforter states:

        "It is a difference of theological opinions which was dogmatized prematurely and erroneously. There is no dogma of the relation of the Holy Spirit to the Son and therefore particular opinions on this subject are not heresies but merely dogmatic hypotheses, which have been transformed into heresies by the schismatic spirit that has established itself in the Church and that eagerly exploits all sorts of liturgical and even cultural differences" pg80 ISBN 9781444337310[213]

(I also recognize that some Sergei Bulgakov's theology was condemned by the Karlovtsy Synod (ROCOR) as heretical)

However, irregardless, I would guess that the number of latin rite hymns, sequences, antiphons & responsories suggesting the filioque remains under %1.
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« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2013, 08:12:11 AM »

I do not believe that the filioque being suggested in a hymn is heretical, even if Rabanus Maurus may have intentionally composed it to suggest the orthodoxy of the filioque.

The only thing I believe is heretical is it's addition to the creed without the authority of an ecumenical council.

Quote
Sergei Bulgakov's work The Comforter states:

        "It is a difference of theological opinions which was dogmatized prematurely and erroneously. There is no dogma of the relation of the Holy Spirit to the Son and therefore particular opinions on this subject are not heresies but merely dogmatic hypotheses, which have been transformed into heresies by the schismatic spirit that has established itself in the Church and that eagerly exploits all sorts of liturgical and even cultural differences" pg80 ISBN 9781444337310[213]

(I also recognize that some Sergei Bulgakov's theology was condemned by the Karlovtsy Synod (ROCOR) as heretical)

However, irregardless, I would guess that the number of latin rite hymns, sequences, antiphons & responsories suggesting the filioque remains under %1.

What about Pange Lingua? If I remember correctly, there is a Filioque interpolation there, too. Otherwise, it's a beautiful hymn. The version by Ensemble Organum brings me to tears.

In Christ,
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« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2013, 08:20:59 AM »

Without knowing just about anything about the issue at hand, Filioque is problematic only in case we are talking about the origin of the Holy Spirit. Therefore outside of the Nicean Creed it can be completely acceptable theologoumenon.
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« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2013, 09:42:54 AM »

Without knowing just about anything about the issue at hand, Filioque is problematic only in case we are talking about the origin of the Holy Spirit. Therefore outside of the Nicean Creed it can be completely acceptable theologoumenon.
The end of the hymn, at least the Thomas Aquinas version, isn't too subtle about the procession of the Holy Spirit. Funnily enough, the phrase 'sola fides' is in there, too. :p Though I doubt Thomas Aquinas is asserting the same thing as Luther.

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« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2013, 10:26:41 AM »

Quote
Not all Latin chants are orthodox. Even some of the more popular ones are often heretical.

This is news to me.

I can think of a certain acclamation to the Pope in the "Christus Vincit" litany that would be seen that way, however, in all the chants I have ever seen (I've seen/sung thousands) that is extraordinarily rare circumstance.

 I would bet a million dollars that less than 1% of the Latin chants are heretical or inappropriate for Orthodox use.
NOT including post-schism saints. (Even than, what about them is heretical??? other than they are not recognized as saints by Our Church)


I was thinking of Veni Creator Spiritus.
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« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2013, 11:39:20 AM »

Quote
Not all Latin chants are orthodox. Even some of the more popular ones are often heretical.

This is news to me.

I can think of a certain acclamation to the Pope in the "Christus Vincit" litany that would be seen that way, however, in all the chants I have ever seen (I've seen/sung thousands) that is extraordinarily rare circumstance.

 I would bet a million dollars that less than 1% of the Latin chants are heretical or inappropriate for Orthodox use.
NOT including post-schism saints. (Even than, what about them is heretical??? other than they are not recognized as saints by Our Church)


Cyrillic clarified that back at reply # 5.
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« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2013, 12:08:41 PM »

What about Pange Lingua? If I remember correctly, there is a Filioque interpolation there, too. Otherwise, it's a beautiful hymn. The version by Ensemble Organum brings me to tears.

In Christ,
Andrew

In Polish version (which I really appreciate) there is no Filioque in this hymn, but "the Spirit, equal to Them". And it's one of my favourite hymns, very like to listen to it on Maundy Thursday. I wonder, if WRO sing it then, and if they yes, do they change anything?...
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« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2013, 04:21:05 PM »

Without knowing just about anything about the issue at hand, Filioque is problematic only in case we are talking about the origin of the Holy Spirit. Therefore outside of the Nicean Creed it can be completely acceptable theologoumenon.

That's one opinion.
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« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2013, 06:10:39 PM »

Without knowing just about anything about the issue at hand, Filioque is problematic only in case we are talking about the origin of the Holy Spirit. Therefore outside of the Nicean Creed it can be completely acceptable theologoumenon.

That's one opinion.

You beg to differ? Why?
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« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2013, 09:36:49 PM »

Without knowing just about anything about the issue at hand, Filioque is problematic only in case we are talking about the origin of the Holy Spirit. Therefore outside of the Nicean Creed it can be completely acceptable theologoumenon.

That's one opinion.

You beg to differ? Why?

I think you go beyond the bounds when you say that outside the creed, it's completely acceptable, and also when you assume that there are times filioque does not talk about the "origin" (not a good word in this case for a Person who exists before all eternity, eternally proceeding from the Father) of the Holy Spirit. Maybe I'm missing an instance when filioque (procession from the Father and the Son) means something else in terms actually worth articulating.
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« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2013, 06:50:07 AM »

Without knowing just about anything about the issue at hand, Filioque is problematic only in case we are talking about the origin of the Holy Spirit. Therefore outside of the Nicean Creed it can be completely acceptable theologoumenon.

That's one opinion.

You beg to differ? Why?

I think you go beyond the bounds when you say that outside the creed, it's completely acceptable, and also when you assume that there are times filioque does not talk about the "origin" (not a good word in this case for a Person who exists before all eternity, eternally proceeding from the Father) of the Holy Spirit. Maybe I'm missing an instance when filioque (procession from the Father and the Son) means something else in terms actually worth articulating.

You misunderstood my point which is probably due to flawed English on my part. Sorry about that. Embarrassed

I actually agree with you. I assumed there might be some hymns that contain Filioque without meaning the double procession of the Holy Spirit within the Trinity itself and in that context a case can be made that is not heretical.
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« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2013, 07:53:45 AM »

What about Pange Lingua? If I remember correctly, there is a Filioque interpolation there, too. Otherwise, it's a beautiful hymn. The version by Ensemble Organum brings me to tears.

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In Polish version (which I really appreciate) there is no Filioque in this hymn, but "the Spirit, equal to Them". And it's one of my favourite hymns, very like to listen to it on Maundy Thursday. I wonder, if WRO sing it then, and if they yes, do they change anything?...
yes, they sing it.  IIRC, no, they do not change anything in it.
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« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2013, 07:58:18 AM »

Without knowing just about anything about the issue at hand, Filioque is problematic only in case we are talking about the origin of the Holy Spirit. Therefore outside of the Nicean Creed it can be completely acceptable theologoumenon.
The end of the hymn, at least the Thomas Aquinas version, isn't too subtle about the procession of the Holy Spirit. Funnily enough, the phrase 'sola fides' is in there, too. :p Though I doubt Thomas Aquinas is asserting the same thing as Luther.

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No, the hymn for Maundy Thursday is Pange Lingua Gloriosi Proelium Certaminis.  Pange Lingua Gloriosi Corporis Mysterium is Aquinas' (and I think it is for Corpus Christi) with the scholasticism.
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« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2013, 07:59:47 AM »

Quote
Not all Latin chants are orthodox. Even some of the more popular ones are often heretical.

This is news to me.

I can think of a certain acclamation to the Pope in the "Christus Vincit" litany that would be seen that way, however, in all the chants I have ever seen (I've seen/sung thousands) that is extraordinarily rare circumstance.

 I would bet a million dollars that less than 1% of the Latin chants are heretical or inappropriate for Orthodox use.
NOT including post-schism saints. (Even than, what about them is heretical??? other than they are not recognized as saints by Our Church)

a lot of them are "visionaries" which promote cults of dubious origins (angels of light and all).
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« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2013, 07:58:47 AM »

No, the hymn for Maundy Thursday is Pange Lingua Gloriosi Proelium Certaminis.  Pange Lingua Gloriosi Corporis Mysterium is Aquinas' (and I think it is for Corpus Christi) with the scholasticism.

No. Pange Lingua Gloriosi Corporis Mysterium (if somebody uses the name "Pange lingua", usually thinks about this one) is used on Maundy Thursday (it ends the Liturgy of the Lord's Supper) and Corpus Christi. The full version of it is always chanted on Maundy Thursday, while on Corpus Christi only last 2 strophes (at least this tradition of shortening this hymn is here, in Poland, so it starts with "Tantum ergo"). So I'm just a bit astonished by the fact that this hymns isn't so old, as latin rites, including Novus Ordo, have preserved very old hymns (and customs) only for the time of Holy Week and Easter. I wonder how had been the Vesperal Liturgy in latin rites before this hymn was written

The second Pange lingua should be sung on Good Friday, but now it's done only by those RC, who follow Tridentine Mass and its traditions and rites.
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« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2013, 09:23:31 AM »

And some more MP3s from WRO: http://www.stgregoryoc.org/article/audio-files/
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« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2013, 10:33:19 AM »

Perhaps it varies, but my parish sings Pange, lingua, gloriosi Corporis mysterium on Maundy Thursday, the ending of which says:

Glory, let us give, and blessing, to the Father and the Son; Honour, might, and praise addressing, While eternal ages run: Ever too His love confessing, Who from One, with both, is one.

This indeed is altered from:

Glory let us give, and blessing To the Father and the Son; Honour, might, and praise addressing, While eternal ages run; Ever too his love confessing, Who, from both, with both is one.
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« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2013, 11:01:50 AM »

I do not believe that the filioque being suggested in a hymn is heretical, even if Rabanus Maurus may have intentionally composed it to suggest the orthodoxy of the filioque.

The only thing I believe is heretical is it's addition to the creed without the authority of an ecumenical council.


That is your problem. Personal opinion is irrelevant when it comes to dogma and doctrine. The Filioque and its inclusion is heresy according to our Church, and if we are to be Orthodox, we cannot question that.
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« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2013, 11:09:40 PM »

I do not believe that the filioque being suggested in a hymn is heretical, even if Rabanus Maurus may have intentionally composed it to suggest the orthodoxy of the filioque.

The only thing I believe is heretical is it's addition to the creed without the authority of an ecumenical council.


That is your problem. Personal opinion is irrelevant when it comes to dogma and doctrine. The Filioque and its inclusion is heresy according to our Church, and if we are to be Orthodox, we cannot question that.

If this is true, than the entire concept of "Western rite Orthodox" is bogus because the byzantine rite majority will never end in finding ways to alter and modify it beyond recognition of what it was before 1100. I do not believe it is possible to have a western rite with this high degree of criticism.

No one ever told me that there was a schism was over the inclusion of the filioque in the an office hymn.
All the books and people I've read and heard said it the schism was because of it's use within the creed.
I am a surprised that it is even possible to have the filioque outside the nicene creed.

It seems to me that this is why some people want nothing to do with the western rite at all.
They feel that the entire concept smells like heresy to a hopeless degree.

I'll ask my bishop about this matter, it is true that it should not be peoples opinions, neither mine nor yours but the bishops.
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« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2013, 11:18:05 PM »

I do not believe that the filioque being suggested in a hymn is heretical, even if Rabanus Maurus may have intentionally composed it to suggest the orthodoxy of the filioque.

The only thing I believe is heretical is it's addition to the creed without the authority of an ecumenical council.


That is your problem. Personal opinion is irrelevant when it comes to dogma and doctrine. The Filioque and its inclusion is heresy according to our Church, and if we are to be Orthodox, we cannot question that.

If this is true, than the entire concept of "Western rite Orthodox" is bogus because the byzantine rite majority will never end in finding ways to alter and modify it beyond recognition of what it was before 1100. I do not believe it is possible to have a western rite with this high degree of criticism.

No one ever told me that there was a schism was over the inclusion of the filioque in the an office hymn.
All the books and people I've read and heard said it the schism was because of it's use within the creed.
I am a surprised that it is even possible to have the filioque outside the nicene creed.

It seems to me that this is why some people want nothing to do with the western rite at all.
They feel that the entire concept smells like heresy to a hopeless degree.

I'll ask my bishop about this matter, it is true that it should not be peoples opinions, neither mine nor yours but the bishops.

Will you switch to the Antiochians now that the ROCOR Western Rite has been surpressed?
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« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2013, 11:54:02 PM »

I do not believe that the filioque being suggested in a hymn is heretical, even if Rabanus Maurus may have intentionally composed it to suggest the orthodoxy of the filioque.

The only thing I believe is heretical is it's addition to the creed without the authority of an ecumenical council.

Quote
Sergei Bulgakov's work The Comforter states:

        "It is a difference of theological opinions which was dogmatized prematurely and erroneously. There is no dogma of the relation of the Holy Spirit to the Son and therefore particular opinions on this subject are not heresies but merely dogmatic hypotheses, which have been transformed into heresies by the schismatic spirit that has established itself in the Church and that eagerly exploits all sorts of liturgical and even cultural differences" pg80 ISBN 9781444337310[213]

(I also recognize that some Sergei Bulgakov's theology was condemned by the Karlovtsy Synod (ROCOR) as heretical)

However, irregardless, I would guess that the number of latin rite hymns, sequences, antiphons & responsories suggesting the filioque remains under %1.


Fr. Sergius may consider the Flioque a theological opinion, but he certainly doesn't seem to agree with it. I've just recently started reading The Comforter, and in it he makes a couple attempts at least to demonstrate that it's false and does in fact harm a proper understanding of the Trinity (e.g. subordinationism, impersonalism, etc.). That said, he seems to criticize the imprecision of many early Eastern Fathers too that frankly neglected a developed pneumatology and sometimes their triadology (subordinationism from viewing the Father as the Absolute Divine Subject, etc.). If you notice, the second half of the Creed is intentionally ambiguous about the Holy Spirit's Divinity unlike the first half about Christ's Divinity ("very God of very God"). He doesn't seem to go so far as to call any of it heresy, apart from the neoplatonic triadology of folks like Origen IIRC.

Anyway, while I don't personally agree with the Filioque theologically, I do agree that it is not heresy in itself.
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« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2013, 12:57:14 AM »

I do not believe that the filioque being suggested in a hymn is heretical, even if Rabanus Maurus may have intentionally composed it to suggest the orthodoxy of the filioque.

The only thing I believe is heretical is it's addition to the creed without the authority of an ecumenical council.


That is your problem. Personal opinion is irrelevant when it comes to dogma and doctrine. The Filioque and its inclusion is heresy according to our Church, and if we are to be Orthodox, we cannot question that.

If this is true, than the entire concept of "Western rite Orthodox" is bogus because the byzantine rite majority will never end in finding ways to alter and modify it beyond recognition of what it was before 1100. I do not believe it is possible to have a western rite with this high degree of criticism.

No one ever told me that there was a schism was over the inclusion of the filioque in the an office hymn.
All the books and people I've read and heard said it the schism was because of it's use within the creed.
I am a surprised that it is even possible to have the filioque outside the nicene creed.

It seems to me that this is why some people want nothing to do with the western rite at all.
They feel that the entire concept smells like heresy to a hopeless degree.

I'll ask my bishop about this matter, it is true that it should not be peoples opinions, neither mine nor yours but the bishops.

You've no clue what you're talking about. The Filioque IS heresy. The Spirit doesn't, in any way, proceed from the Son as well as the Father. Such an idea is against apostolic teaching AND against scripture no less.

Heresy shouldn't be included in any hymnography whether its western or eastern. As Orthodox, we have no heresy in our hymns, and the Western Rite shouldn't be any different.

There's a reason our church warns us against joining heretics in prayer and song. I have no problem singing wonderful western hymns. But as soon as we come to one with heresy, I shut my mouth so I don't praise that which is evil.

It simply isn't possible to be Orthodox and also accept that the Filioque is okay. Anyone who does so puts their very soul at danger.
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« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2013, 01:42:25 AM »

I do not believe that the filioque being suggested in a hymn is heretical, even if Rabanus Maurus may have intentionally composed it to suggest the orthodoxy of the filioque.

The only thing I believe is heretical is it's addition to the creed without the authority of an ecumenical council.


That is your problem. Personal opinion is irrelevant when it comes to dogma and doctrine. The Filioque and its inclusion is heresy according to our Church, and if we are to be Orthodox, we cannot question that.

If this is true, than the entire concept of "Western rite Orthodox" is bogus because the byzantine rite majority will never end in finding ways to alter and modify it beyond recognition of what it was before 1100. I do not believe it is possible to have a western rite with this high degree of criticism.
Denouncing heresy is a rather low bar to pass.

No one ever told me that there was a schism was over the inclusion of the filioque in the an office hymn.
All the books and people I've read and heard said it the schism was because of it's use within the creed.
I am a surprised that it is even possible to have the filioque outside the nicene creed.
Now you have learned better.
It seems to me that this is why some people want nothing to do with the western rite at all.
They feel that the entire concept smells like heresy to a hopeless degree.
If we had the WRO the same way the Vatican went about getting its Eastern ecclesiastical communities to submit to it-keeping prayers that do not only do not reflect the newly adopted faith but contradict it-they would be right.
I'll ask my bishop about this matter, it is true that it should not be peoples opinions, neither mine nor yours but the bishops.
The bishop is not free to overturn the boundary marker our Fathers have set up.
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