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Author Topic: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?  (Read 3827 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: July 06, 2013, 05:55:53 PM »

I received, a while back, information from someone in the Masons that contained a list of some living Orthodox Christians who were active Freemasons, and apparently also held positions in their parishes. I was given the information but also asked not to "out" them, I deleted the information and no longer have it.


I wonder if Communists have infiltrated the church as well...

then again, i guess living in commune could be seen as a christian thing, sharing and all...

but i keep going off topic!

Now, If I were My All-Holiness, I would probably... oh this will be fun to write... just give me a few days to think and divulge myself in the sin of envy!
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« Reply #91 on: July 06, 2013, 08:17:15 PM »

I received, a while back, information from someone in the Masons that contained a list of some living Orthodox Christians who were active Freemasons, and apparently also held positions in their parishes. I was given the information but also asked not to "out" them, I deleted the information and no longer have it.


I wonder if how many Communists have infiltrated the church as well...

then again, i guess living in commune could be seen as a christian thing, sharing and all...

but i keep going off topic!

Now, If I were My All-Holiness, I would probably... oh this will be fun to write... just give me a few days to think and divulge myself in the sin of envy!
Fixed that for you.

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« Reply #92 on: July 06, 2013, 09:12:17 PM »

First of all, I'd probably have on the calendar a feast of the fall of the Soviet Union, and have stikhera and apolytikia written for it by the best hymnographers I could find. Also, would merge OCA with the Greek Archdiocese under a Patriarch of North America, while establishing a new Metropolia in South America. Also, would try to further relations with the OO's, and meanwhile give Poland it's own Metropolia as well, to try and avoid any Polish/Russian tension. Also would work on evangelising Scandanavia, to try and show the Lutherans the true light.  Tongue Granted, none of these are likely to happen seeing as I'm one, not ordained and two, Eastern Catholic; still, a guy can dream of long beards that put Michael Gambon to shame.
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« Reply #93 on: July 06, 2013, 10:58:39 PM »

If you want to find out whether Patriarch Athenagoras is a freemason, you just have to dig him up since they have separate and additional burial rites for freemasons. Allegedly, when Patriarch Melitius Metaxakis died, there was an Orthodox funeral, followed by a freemason funeral.
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« Reply #94 on: July 07, 2013, 11:23:07 AM »

and meanwhile give Poland it's own Metropolia as well, to try and avoid any Polish/Russian tension.
We have our own Metropolia and we're one of autocephalus Churches.


As I'm woman so my opinion and vision won't be taken into consideration, however that's just an imagination...

1.So, as many of you mentioned, crate truly autocephalus and united one Orthodox Church of both Americas, with possibility in future to create autocephalus Church for Central and South America, but in the beginning not (maybe just autonomy).

2. Think about unifying (and creating autocephalus and/or autonomus Churches) in Western Europe, especially in these areas that have a lot of indigenous converts.

3.Give autocephaly to Ukraine (maybe it would cause some coming back of Greek Catholics, because they're so lost in some way, and eventually they would have their own Ukrainian Church) and Macedonia (but under the condition, that they recognise these bishops, nuns and faithful that they persecute now).

4. Necessarily try to lead to official reunification with OO Churches. We have to be unified to witness Orthodoxy together, that the non-Orthodox see the Power of Orthodoxy, and it's especially needed in Middle East Countries and diaspora (both Americas, also missions in Africa)

5. Encourage in some European contries to use pre-schism western rites. Althoguh personally I prefer eastern (especially byzantine) rites). But only if it make more converts from anglcian and RC Churches. Anyway, byzantine rite would be primary

6. Try to do something with all these "Turkish issues" - Halki, Hagia Sophia... But I know,that's the least probable. But all the above... Not so difficult (at least in my perception) and very necessary

As for calendars, no idea... For sure Paschalion has to be old one, and I know that the calendar should be one,  but taht's not so easy as you know...
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« Reply #95 on: July 07, 2013, 02:58:05 PM »

and meanwhile give Poland it's own Metropolia as well, to try and avoid any Polish/Russian tension.
We have our own Metropolia and we're one of autocephalus Churches.


As I'm woman so my opinion and vision won't be taken into consideration, however that's just an imagination...

1.So, as many of you mentioned, crate truly autocephalus and united one Orthodox Church of both Americas, with possibility in future to create autocephalus Church for Central and South America, but in the beginning not (maybe just autonomy).

2. Think about unifying (and creating autocephalus and/or autonomus Churches) in Western Europe, especially in these areas that have a lot of indigenous converts.

3.Give autocephaly to Ukraine (maybe it would cause some coming back of Greek Catholics, because they're so lost in some way, and eventually they would have their own Ukrainian Church) and Macedonia (but under the condition, that they recognise these bishops, nuns and faithful that they persecute now).

4. Necessarily try to lead to official reunification with OO Churches. We have to be unified to witness Orthodoxy together, that the non-Orthodox see the Power of Orthodoxy, and it's especially needed in Middle East Countries and diaspora (both Americas, also missions in Africa)

5. Encourage in some European contries to use pre-schism western rites. Althoguh personally I prefer eastern (especially byzantine) rites). But only if it make more converts from anglcian and RC Churches. Anyway, byzantine rite would be primary

6. Try to do something with all these "Turkish issues" - Halki, Hagia Sophia... But I know,that's the least probable. But all the above... Not so difficult (at least in my perception) and very necessary

As for calendars, no idea... For sure Paschalion has to be old one, and I know that the calendar should be one,  but taht's not so easy as you know...
For a man's view: I would agree with all of the above, except for 3-it is not within the power of the EP.  Though I would push for it (like in 4, and in a way #1 and 2).

I'd get the calendar in order by having the equinox occur on the equinox.
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« Reply #96 on: July 09, 2013, 02:57:04 AM »

I would seek a return of the church of Hagia Irene, currently a concert hall. I'd raise funds to paint over the empty walls & iconoclastic crosses with iconography, and raise funds to renovate the building and making it structurally stable. I'd also attempt to raise funds to purchase nearby buildings which currently are part of the whole Topkapi Museum complex (they aren't for displays) and seek to move the Patriarchal headquarters there. It's not Hagia Sophia, but it is the second largest church in Istanbul, plus it was originally the seat of the Archbishop there prior to Hagia Sophia.

I'd also seek the full return of Halki Seminary and seek to reopen it as a seminary, and also seek to build an orphanage and rehab center on or near the island.

I would actively seek to get Turkey to respect and recognize Orthodox populations and seek equality between peoples. I'd also campaign in the EU, Russia & US to pressure Turkey to improve human rights and rights of all Christians within Turkey.

I'd also declare Turkish as a valid liturgical language for common use within Turkey and I'd encourage Orthodox missionaries to work within the nation, and also encourage Greeks and others to move into Turkey and settle near any Orthodox Churches.

I'd also seek to reunify the Church of Greece with the Patriarchate. I would release my churches in Sweden, Finland, Estonia and any Ukrainian Churches to the Church of Russia, possibly in a deal to bring all North American Churches under my omophor as an autonomous church, and release my churches in South America to Antioch.

Along with this, I'd also back off on Ecumenical efforts with the Roman Catholics, and strengthen/increase Ecumenical efforts with the Oriental Orthodox.

That was literally most of what I was going to say. I would, however, add a few more things.  My order of business would be as follows:
1. I'd begin a massive public-relations campaign in Turkey. The Prime Minister has recently said something along the lines that the 1,100 years of Byzantine rule over Turkey [sic] were some of Turkey's [sic] darkest times. I'd go to the Turkish media to respectfully refute that, and show the people of the Republic that we are not some 5th Columns or subservient to Moscow or any other foreign power. Who knows, maybe this could awake the teachings of Christ within some Turkish people; I would hope so.
2. Next, I’d rally my fellow Bishops in Christ to the cause of reunification with the Oriental Orthodox Churches. I think that that would be incredibly difficult, but I'd try my hardest to convince my equals that Union is possible, beneficial, and part of God’s plan for Christians. At the same time, I'd let any attempts of unification or ecumenical relations with the Catholics fizzle out. I need as many minds as I can get on creating a union that would be satisfactory to God and to His loyal servants. If I could see Union during my days as His All Holiness, then I'd move on to Phase III.
3. I think that it's time to see a proper Patriarch in Kiev. If that can happen, God-willing, I'd like to see defences of Orthodoxy written and easily available for interested Ukrainian Catholics in order to bring them home. This reminds me—the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Protestant missionaries in Athens are really irritating. I think the Church needs to write apologetic-works against each tradition that are going to reduce both sides to taking cheap and untrue shots at us because they don't have any legitimate comebacks.
4. I think it's time to reunite the Church of Greece with the Patriarchate again. The Turkish Republic might be belligerent and problematic, yes, but hey, it's not early-mid 19th Century Ottoman Empire, now is it? The main issue that I see would be the Post WWII land-deal between the Hellenic Kingdom and the Church of Greece that the Hellenic Republic has also adopted. Might we have to release the land to the Republic? I don’t know—I’m not that smart in my current, non-Patriarchal self.
5. I think it's also time to see the celebration of Divine Liturgy in New Greek. I know some bishops argue that translation might be problematic, so I'd need to find a way around any and all problems. One example is that translating "Χαίρε Νύμφη Ανύμφευτε" would be awkward because in New Greek it would be expressed as "rejoice, bride who is not married" instead of “Rejoice, Bride unwedded,” or that "Άρτος and Οίνος" sound better than "Ψωμί & Κρασί." I'd try my hardest to find an accurate translation of all of our ecclesiastical works that satisfies even the most hardliner-critics.
6. After working with Modern Greek, I'd move on to Modern Turkish translations. The Bible, some prayers, and bits of the liturgy have already been translated into Modern Turkish (the Church of Antioch has such a translation of the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom), so I think that this would be a relatively easy task. Not that "easy" exists in Orthodoxy, but hey, it would be an easier task than uniting two Churches, right?
7. I think that the Church needs to restart orphanages in the City. I would hope to find enough Turkish-speaking Orthodox Christians that can teach small children, and I would not limit teaching positions to monks or clergy. I suppose this would go hand-in-hand with a reinvigoration of the remaining schools of Istanbul. As of now, only Turkish- citizens may attend our schools (like the College of Fanari or the Zografeion Lyceum), and I'm going to take that up with the Turkish Court System or die trying. Hey, if the Church can see a reinvigoration of the school system in Constantinople, why stop there? Why not move onto Smyrna, or Trebizond?
8. It's time for the Rum to come home. Nea Smyrni don’t cut it in my book; I want to see Palaia Smyrni again! Athens needs a population reduction, anyway; that city is not cut out to hold three million people. Likewise, there's no reason that the Bulgarian population of Constantinople and Adrianople need to be left out as well. Likewise, I'd encourage more Russian immigration to Turkey.
9. If the Church has any money left, I'd look into repurchasing land confiscated by the Republic. If I have to agree to a church/museum combination to satisfy Ankara’s politicians, then so be it.
10. If it already hasn't happened already (I'm sure by the time that I'm of age to be the Patriarch, both problems will be solved), I'd try to again rally my fellow Bishops to the cause of uniting the Church in the Americas and Great Britain, both Eastern Riters and Western Riters alike. I'd propose that the religious capital of the Archbishopric be Chicago (what? It's my hometown, cut me some slack), and I’d also encourage missionary work with the urban and rural poor. In the past, some Non-Jurors were interesting in joining the Church, and they proposed that any English Church be a part of the Church of Alexandria. I say so be it—unite all Orthodox Christians in the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland (and the Channel Islands) under the Patriarch of Alexandria just as the current Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America is "under" Constantinople. I'd also encourage High Church Anglicans and Methodists (yes, they exist) disenfranchised by their own Church and seen as stuffy relics of a bygone era to join our own Communion, where we'd have a place for them in this new, quasi-Alexandrine Church.
11. After all of this is said and done, I'd probably retire to Halki, or maybe that small church in Kandilli that I'm so fond of. I'd set the stage for my successor to look into union with the Assyrian Church of the East and setting up a missionary programme to Eastern Catholic lands. If I could get just one of these accomplishments done, I'd die a happy priest.
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« Reply #97 on: July 09, 2013, 05:52:31 AM »

and setting up a missionary programme to Eastern Catholic lands.

Where?
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« Reply #98 on: July 09, 2013, 06:06:52 AM »

5. I think it's also time to see the celebration of Divine Liturgy in New Greek.

Vatican II, the Orthodox edition.
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« Reply #99 on: July 09, 2013, 06:20:37 AM »

For a man's view: I would agree with all of the above, except for 3-it is not within the power of the EP.  Though I would push for it (like in 4, and in a way #1 and 2).

I'd get the calendar in order by having the equinox occur on the equinox.

Thanks Wink Actually, I think the case of Ukraine is bit similar to Polish one, I mean they could consider EP as the Mother Church. It was the case of Poland, and I know that our Church has very strange of receiving autocephaly, as finally after some year we refused this one given by EP, and took this from MP. As for Macedonia, that's even more complicated, because there are 3 Church that could be considered in some way as Mother Church: Serbian, Bulgarian and EP (maybe for now Church of Greece).


Generally I agree with KostaC (BTW, very nice written), especially with point 6 - it's time to do missionary work among Turks. I only would disagree with point 5 - if a nation has such treasure as a liturgical language, we should preserve and use it
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« Reply #100 on: July 09, 2013, 08:31:57 AM »

5. I think it's also time to see the celebration of Divine Liturgy in New Greek.

Vatican II, the Orthodox edition.

With, I'm sure, removal of parts of the Liturgy deemed unnecessary so people can be in and out in 45 minutes to an hour, including communion.  Better market sure to get input from Protestant "theologians" on how best to do that.  Also, mandate Protestant hymns to be sung with organ accompaniment.

Vatican II did wonders for the RC.  I'm sure the Orthodox version would be just as good.
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« Reply #101 on: July 09, 2013, 08:38:33 AM »

Vatican II, the Orthodox edition.

I hope the 2020's won't be as bad for the Greek church as the 1920's.
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« Reply #102 on: July 09, 2013, 09:09:50 AM »

Are you aware of the Venona project and similar materials studied together with the opening of the KGB files in Moscow? Not only most of the people indicated by Macarthy were indeed either spies or informants, but the number of people infiltrated was much higher than previously thought. You can say he was a buffon, but the fact is that he tried to shoot a duck and hit a hidding bear.

Concerning the infiltration of KGB and other Soviet-era agencies in the Orthodox Church, it is to our great shame that the Church has not dealt with that in an orderly and honorable fashion. Those who were forced to contribute to the regime should publically apologize, those who did so voluntarily should be condemned. I suspect that hasn't happened for the simple reason that unlike the Nazis, the KGB never left power - as we can see with Putin. It just chaged its name to FSB and continued with business as usual.

It doesn't mean the Church is a docile puppet in the hands of national interests. But it does mean that we are allowing a great evil to be perpetuated under the pretense of "forgiveness". I'm sure the CIA also has agents on major American churches, the same for MI6 and every national intelligence service. That's what intelligence agencies are supposed to do. But that's not an excuse for the Orthodox Church not to out those who tried to control her and use the face of Christ to advance petty ideological and financial interests.

I received, a while back, information from someone in the Masons that contained a list of some living Orthodox Christians who were active Freemasons, and apparently also held positions in their parishes. I was given the information but also asked not to "out" them, I deleted the information and no longer have it.

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« Reply #103 on: July 09, 2013, 09:46:47 AM »

Well one friend of mine was with Special Branch (originally the Special Irish Branch) and told me, without going into any detail, that they used keep the MP's Ennismore Gardens Cathedral in London under regular watch. The original Soviet strategy was to destroy outright the Orthodox Church, then the strategy altered to one of compromising it from within. Targets included both the Church within the Soviet Union and the diaspora, including ROCOR. And in the case of the last didn't their seeds bear fruit.

I am no admirer of McCarthy or his methodology, but neither do I chose to live in denial. Nor do I believe others in the West have not sought to exercise influence on our Church, for purely political ends. As for freemasonry I don't what it's reach is or isn't, but do know membership is incompatible with Christian Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #104 on: July 09, 2013, 10:13:42 AM »



That was literally most of what I was going to say. I would, however, add a few more things.  My order of business would be as follows:
1. I'd begin a massive public-relations campaign in Turkey. The Prime Minister has recently said something along the lines that the 1,100 years of Byzantine rule over Turkey [sic] were some of Turkey's [sic] darkest times. I'd go to the Turkish media to respectfully refute that, and show the people of the Republic that we are not some 5th Columns or subservient to Moscow or any other foreign power. Who knows, maybe this could awake the teachings of Christ within some Turkish people; I would hope so.

Waste of time. The Turkish media is a state run operation.  And the AKP has control. THey're not going to let the Orthodox say "their side of the story."  They want the Orthodox exterminated or removed so that Turkey can become an Islamic Republic like Iran.

2. Next, I’d rally my fellow Bishops in Christ to the cause of reunification with the Oriental Orthodox Churches. I think that that would be incredibly difficult, but I'd try my hardest to convince my equals that Union is possible, beneficial, and part of God’s plan for Christians. At the same time, I'd let any attempts of unification or ecumenical relations with the Catholics fizzle out. I need as many minds as I can get on creating a union that would be satisfactory to God and to His loyal servants. If I could see Union during my days as His All Holiness, then I'd move on to Phase III.


To be honest, I think that the EP has lagged behind the efforts of the Churches or Jerusalem and Antioch.  Even if I don't agree that it is not proper to commune OOs in EO churches, a lot of that IS happening.  The EP, rightly IMHO, has not jumped in with both feet trying to be cautious, but reaching out first to Jerusalem and Antioch to get them all on the same page would be helpful.


4. I think it's time to reunite the Church of Greece with the Patriarchate again. The Turkish Republic might be belligerent and problematic, yes, but hey, it's not early-mid 19th Century Ottoman Empire, now is it? The main issue that I see would be the Post WWII land-deal between the Hellenic Kingdom and the Church of Greece that the Hellenic Republic has also adopted. Might we have to release the land to the Republic? I don’t know—I’m not that smart in my current, non-Patriarchal self.

Not going to happen.


5. I think it's also time to see the celebration of Divine Liturgy in New Greek. I know some bishops argue that translation might be problematic, so I'd need to find a way around any and all problems. One example is that translating "Χαίρε Νύμφη Ανύμφευτε" would be awkward because in New Greek it would be expressed as "rejoice, bride who is not married" instead of “Rejoice, Bride unwedded,” or that "Άρτος and Οίνος" sound better than "Ψωμί & Κρασί." I'd try my hardest to find an accurate translation of all of our ecclesiastical works that satisfies even the most hardliner-critics.

SHouldn't happen.  I think there should be a difference in the way we pray versus the way we converse in daily life.  If the church is a countercultural institution, then the church should not be a place where we do things in the world.  I know that sounds arcane.


6. After working with Modern Greek, I'd move on to Modern Turkish translations. The Bible, some prayers, and bits of the liturgy have already been translated into Modern Turkish (the Church of Antioch has such a translation of the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom), so I think that this would be a relatively easy task. Not that "easy" exists in Orthodoxy, but hey, it would be an easier task than uniting two Churches, right?

I'm surprised that nothing like this has been done, but when you consider that the ORthodox population of Istanbul is around only 3000, maybe this would seem to be a waste of time. Turks don't seem that interested in converting.


7. I think that the Church needs to restart orphanages in the City. I would hope to find enough Turkish-speaking Orthodox Christians that can teach small children, and I would not limit teaching positions to monks or clergy. I suppose this would go hand-in-hand with a reinvigoration of the remaining schools of Istanbul. As of now, only Turkish- citizens may attend our schools (like the College of Fanari or the Zografeion Lyceum), and I'm going to take that up with the Turkish Court System or die trying. Hey, if the Church can see a reinvigoration of the school system in Constantinople, why stop there? Why not move onto Smyrna, or Trebizond?

They can't. Not with the restrictions placed on them since the days of hte Ottoman Empire.  They can't even have a seminary. You think the Islamic Turks are going to allow orphanages where the possibility exists of children being taught the Christian faith?  It won't happen.
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« Reply #105 on: July 09, 2013, 10:30:26 AM »

If Orthodox missionaries were to even begin work in Turkey they would not survive long. The state could not afford to tolerate them and various Islamist groups would act bloodily.

A British kissed a Turkish girl in Marmaris last week, he was stripped and repeatedly stabbed before being left for dead. Fortunately he has survived. Missionaries? They wouldn't survive and possibly not too many of the other Christians in Turkey either.
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« Reply #106 on: July 09, 2013, 10:39:51 AM »

There are actually a number of Turkish Orthodox in Turkey.  However, they are under Antioch and not Constantinople.

If Orthodox missionaries were to even begin work in Turkey they would not survive long. The state could not afford to tolerate them and various Islamist groups would act bloodily.

A British kissed a Turkish girl in Marmaris last week, he was stripped and repeatedly stabbed before being left for dead. Fortunately he has survived. Missionaries? They wouldn't survive and possibly not too many of the other Christians in Turkey either.
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« Reply #107 on: July 09, 2013, 11:36:59 AM »

That's horrible. The Byzantine Rite is way better.

How many fasts have you been through?


I suppose that the Calvinists have the best liturgy since they do not have obligatory fasts.
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« Reply #108 on: July 09, 2013, 11:55:54 AM »

I would anathemize the Russian Orthodox Church just to spice things up a bit.  Nothing gets the juices going like a good anathema.  Grin
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« Reply #109 on: July 09, 2013, 11:59:16 AM »

Well, after I was done playing with my new found beard, I would go about getting Ukraine a Church of her own, out from under Moscow.  angel

If you had such prerogatives and it's not clear.

While the issue of autocephaly may not be clear (actually it is, but de facto vs. de jure is a detraction from this thread), one thing that is clear is that no one has become a patriarchate without Constantinople's approval. 

Please correct me if I am wrong here: If by "patriarchate" one means the head of a local church, I would think that the heads of Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Georgia, etc..  did not need Constantinople's approval.
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« Reply #110 on: July 09, 2013, 12:35:43 PM »

To be honest, I think that the EP has lagged behind the efforts of the Churches or Jerusalem and Antioch.  Even if I don't agree that it is not proper to commune OOs in EO churches, a lot of that IS happening.  The EP, rightly IMHO, has not jumped in with both feet trying to be cautious, but reaching out first to Jerusalem and Antioch to get them all on the same page would be helpful.

Did you mean Alexandria?

AFAIR, the only one relations between the Church Jerusalem and OOs is when they slam each other with brooms.
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« Reply #111 on: July 09, 2013, 01:39:41 PM »

And I would make firm and unequivocal pro-life and pro-marriage statements. That would include a reafirmation that the Orthodox Church does *not* condone or approves of divorce.

It is just seem as a lesser evil in face of some great aberrations that can occur under the false guise of marriage, like domestic violence where an abuser uses the social and religious ties of marriage not to create a family or to walk together toward God but as a bait to further dominate the victim.

As part of the marriage campaign, I would also support the concept of "education for love" above "sexual education". It would seek to reconquer the value of the healthy path for sexual love, from non-intercourse dating to raising your children as continuum of sexual love.
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« Reply #112 on: July 09, 2013, 03:19:10 PM »

2. Next, I’d rally my fellow Bishops in Christ to the cause of reunification with the Oriental Orthodox Churches. I think that that would be incredibly difficult, but I'd try my hardest to convince my equals that Union is possible, beneficial, and part of God’s plan for Christians. At the same time, I'd let any attempts of unification or ecumenical relations with the Catholics fizzle out. I need as many minds as I can get on creating a union that would be satisfactory to God and to His loyal servants. If I could see Union during my days as His All Holiness, then I'd move on to Phase III.
3. I think that it's time to see a proper Patriarch in Kiev. If that can happen, God-willing, I'd like to see defences of Orthodoxy written and easily available for interested Ukrainian Catholics in order to bring them home. This reminds me—the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Protestant missionaries in Athens are really irritating. I think the Church needs to write apologetic-works against each tradition that are going to reduce both sides to taking cheap and untrue shots at us because they don't have any legitimate comebacks.


Is it really easier to overcome a sixteen century schism than it is to set up a proper patriarchate in Ukraine? 

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« Reply #113 on: July 09, 2013, 08:00:55 PM »

In all honesty, resign.  I am not the person for that kind of job.  I think the current one is doing a pretty well. 
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« Reply #114 on: July 09, 2013, 08:16:18 PM »

Well, after I was done playing with my new found beard, I would go about getting Ukraine a Church of her own, out from under Moscow.  angel

If you had such prerogatives and it's not clear.

While the issue of autocephaly may not be clear (actually it is, but de facto vs. de jure is a detraction from this thread), one thing that is clear is that no one has become a patriarchate without Constantinople's approval. 

Please correct me if I am wrong here: If by "patriarchate" one means the head of a local church, I would think that the heads of Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Georgia, etc..  did not need Constantinople's approval.

Hi Carl.  Yes, of course you are right from the point of view that from Nicea the first mentioned were local churchs.  They did not, however, become Patriarchates without Constantinople (the 5th Council is the first to mention them as such by a collective title as distinctive supra-eparchies).  Georgia was indisputably granted by Constantinople (if we are talking about the first time around...the argument from the second time around was that Moscow wrongly deprived it so Moscow rightly could restore it).  Constantinople's delay in commemorating Georgia's restoration was not because it didn't see her as such, but because it did not wish to agitate the Soviet Union to the peril of the faithful in Georgia. 
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« Reply #115 on: July 10, 2013, 05:11:45 PM »

Write a lot of letters and make some speeches...everything I can think of needs a pan-Orthodox council to resolve and it may not even go my way  Tongue
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« Reply #116 on: July 10, 2013, 05:49:11 PM »

Well, after I was done playing with my new found beard, I would go about getting Ukraine a Church of her own, out from under Moscow.  angel

If you had such prerogatives and it's not clear.

While the issue of autocephaly may not be clear (actually it is, but de facto vs. de jure is a detraction from this thread), one thing that is clear is that no one has become a patriarchate without Constantinople's approval. 

Please correct me if I am wrong here: If by "patriarchate" one means the head of a local church, I would think that the heads of Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Georgia, etc..  did not need Constantinople's approval.

Hi Carl.  Yes, of course you are right from the point of view that from Nicea the first mentioned were local churchs.  They did not, however, become Patriarchates without Constantinople (the 5th Council is the first to mention them as such by a collective title as distinctive supra-eparchies).  Georgia was indisputably granted by Constantinople (if we are talking about the first time around...the argument from the second time around was that Moscow wrongly deprived it so Moscow rightly could restore it).  Constantinople's delay in commemorating Georgia's restoration was not because it didn't see her as such, but because it did not wish to agitate the Soviet Union to the peril of the faithful in Georgia. 

Dear Father--I had thought that Georgia was granted her autocephaly by Antioch in the 8th Century, although it is a fact that Western parts of Georgia (Colchis) were under Constantinople until they themselves joined the main body in the 9th Century. Also, I had not listed Cyprus (autocephaly confirmed and Antioch's claims rejected by an ecumenical council) or Armenia (which was one of us and thoroughly autocephalous started prior to Chalcedon).

My point is that it is erroneous to claim that Constantinople has an exclusive right to grant autocephaly or the status of patriarchate. Indeed, she seems to have backed off from this position, at least a little bit, when she agreed to the route to future autocephalies: the mother church would grant autocephaly, while the Phanar would coordinate the recognition by the other local churches as befits the first among equals. Of course, this reasonable approach is somewhat contradicted by her novel interpretation of Canon 28. On a related note, I cannot understand the distinction between the several titles for the heads of the local autocephalous churches. Since in the Ignatian model a diocese headed by a bishop (surrounded by his priests, deacons and laity) is ontologically complete, and the Apostolic canons do not address anything more than the metropolitan bishop of a Roman province/nation, I wonder if further distinctions are helpful. Of the 15 autocephalous churches, there are seven patriarchs, one pope/patriarch, one catholicos/patriarch, three archbishops, and three metropolitans. When push comes to shove, they are the "metropolitan" of Apostolic Canon 34.
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« Reply #117 on: July 10, 2013, 11:03:01 PM »

Well, after I was done playing with my new found beard, I would go about getting Ukraine a Church of her own, out from under Moscow.  angel

If you had such prerogatives and it's not clear.

While the issue of autocephaly may not be clear (actually it is, but de facto vs. de jure is a detraction from this thread), one thing that is clear is that no one has become a patriarchate without Constantinople's approval. 

Please correct me if I am wrong here: If by "patriarchate" one means the head of a local church, I would think that the heads of Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Georgia, etc..  did not need Constantinople's approval.

Hi Carl.  Yes, of course you are right from the point of view that from Nicea the first mentioned were local churchs.  They did not, however, become Patriarchates without Constantinople (the 5th Council is the first to mention them as such by a collective title as distinctive supra-eparchies).  Georgia was indisputably granted by Constantinople (if we are talking about the first time around...the argument from the second time around was that Moscow wrongly deprived it so Moscow rightly could restore it).  Constantinople's delay in commemorating Georgia's restoration was not because it didn't see her as such, but because it did not wish to agitate the Soviet Union to the peril of the faithful in Georgia. 

I thought the first autocephaly for Georgia came from Antioch, as Georgia wasn't in the Constantinopolitan jurisdiction.
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« Reply #118 on: July 11, 2013, 01:04:21 AM »

^Well, only since you guys brought it up ...    Smiley

As you will see in my book (now in process of publication) on such subjects, what we now would call "east Georgia" no longer wanted to be under Antioch.  They appealed to Constantinople.  Constantinople put pressure on Antioch.  The Patriarchate of Antioch granted said autocephaly (in response to the official written request of Constantinople) in 466, an act recognized by the resident Synod of Constantinople in the same year, 466.   Again, read my statement as it is written (not as you first interpreted it). 
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« Reply #119 on: July 13, 2013, 04:33:40 PM »

There are actually a number of Turkish Orthodox in Turkey.  However, they are under Antioch and not Constantinople.

If Orthodox missionaries were to even begin work in Turkey they would not survive long. The state could not afford to tolerate them and various Islamist groups would act bloodily.

A British kissed a Turkish girl in Marmaris last week, he was stripped and repeatedly stabbed before being left for dead. Fortunately he has survived. Missionaries? They wouldn't survive and possibly not too many of the other Christians in Turkey either.

The people who take care of the churches in Constantinople are by and large Antiochians. There are more Antiochians than Greeks (at least openly) in Turkey.
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« Reply #120 on: July 13, 2013, 04:35:30 PM »

^Well, only since you guys brought it up ...    Smiley

As you will see in my book (now in process of publication) on such subjects, what we now would call "east Georgia" no longer wanted to be under Antioch.  They appealed to Constantinople.  Constantinople put pressure on Antioch.  The Patriarchate of Antioch granted said autocephaly (in response to the official written request of Constantinople) in 466, an act recognized by the resident Synod of Constantinople in the same year, 466.   Again, read my statement as it is written (not as you first interpreted it). 

Have the documents survived or are they referenced later? This is interesting.
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« Reply #121 on: July 13, 2013, 05:21:43 PM »

Resign.
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« Reply #122 on: July 16, 2013, 09:50:35 PM »

Waste of time. The Turkish media is a state run operation.  And the AKP has control. THey're not going to let the Orthodox say "their side of the story."  They want the Orthodox exterminated or removed so that Turkey can become an Islamic Republic like Iran.



Not going to happen.


I'm surprised that nothing like this has been done, but when you consider that the ORthodox population of Istanbul is around only 3000, maybe this would seem to be a waste of time. Turks don't seem that interested in converting.

They can't. Not with the restrictions placed on them since the days of hte Ottoman Empire.  They can't even have a seminary. You think the Islamic Turks are going to allow orphanages where the possibility exists of children being taught the Christian faith?  It won't happen.


Well, seems like I'm late to the party. Where do I start when I'm fighting on all fronts here?

Vatican II, the Orthodox edition.
With, I'm sure, removal of parts of the Liturgy deemed unnecessary so people can be in and out in 45 minutes to an hour, including communion.  Better market sure to get input from Protestant "theologians" on how best to do that.  Also, mandate Protestant hymns to be sung with organ accompaniment.

Vatican II did wonders for the RC.  I'm sure the Orthodox version would be just as good.

SHouldn't happen.  I think there should be a difference in the way we pray versus the way we converse in daily life.  If the church is a countercultural institution, then the church should not be a place where we do things in the world.  I know that sounds arcane.

You're both throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Why does translation equal desecration in your minds? We're not changing anything, we're updating it. How do you not think that you're spitting on all that Saints Cyril and Methodius fought for when you say that updating the language of our liturgies is heresy? Did Christ preach in an outdated, liturgical Hebrew? No, He preached in contemporary Aramaic so that His people could understand him. When the liturgies were composed, why were they not composed in Archaic Greek to keep things countercultural, why did the Church Fathers use their own vernacular? Keeping our liturgies in a language we can't understand isn't being countercultural; it's being being belligerent. We the faithful have a right to understand the words of the Saints and the consecration of the Body and Blood, not just sitting there to be left to daydream or frantically try to learn Koine Greek. What you're saying doesn't sound arcane, it sounds pointless. Why don't you tell Christ in your prayers tonight that he wasn't being countercultural enough? What about languages that have modern translations, like English; should we revert the English translations to Anglo-Saxon to be countercultural enough?

If Orthodox missionaries were to even begin work in Turkey they would not survive long. The state could not afford to tolerate them and various Islamist groups would act bloodily.

A British kissed a Turkish girl in Marmaris last week, he was stripped and repeatedly stabbed before being left for dead. Fortunately he has survived. Missionaries? They wouldn't survive and possibly not too many of the other Christians in Turkey either.

Waste of time. The Turkish media is a state run operation.  And the AKP has control. THey're not going to let the Orthodox say "their side of the story."  They want the Orthodox exterminated or removed so that Turkey can become an Islamic Republic like Iran.
I'm surprised that nothing like this has been done, but when you consider that the ORthodox population of Istanbul is around only 3000, maybe this would seem to be a waste of time. Turks don't seem that interested in converting.

They can't. Not with the restrictions placed on them since the days of hte Ottoman Empire.  They can't even have a seminary. You think the Islamic Turks are going to allow orphanages where the possibility exists of children being taught the Christian faith?  It won't happen.


Ooh, arguing why the Turkish people aren't one-dimensional bogeymen, this is going to be fun.

First, I'd just like to point out that a translation of the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom into Modern Turkish has been done already, by the Patriarchate of Antioch. That would make missionary work a lot easier. Ask, and ye shall receive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL8uBEpxHkc Would you care to argue with the Patriarchate of Antioch that authorised this celebration?

Second, the AKP is not going to be in power forever. Have not the events in Taksim shown you that Prime Minister Erdoğan's grip over Turkey is tentative. His time ruling is nearly done, and the future looks bright. By the time I would be even remotely eligible to be a Patriarch, which would be decades from now, Turkey is going to be incredibly different.

First, I refute that just because one tourist was killed, the entire country is made up of radical Muslims. Never once when I visited Turkey did I hide who I was. When I worked in a cemetery in Kandilli, a part of Skoutari, itself a part of Constantinople, we kept the doors open. Did anyone go in and shoot up the cemetery? Did anyone in a hijab/tesettür or taqiyah come to accost us? No, all we got were curious and awkward yuppies out on their morning jog come to the door to watch what we were doing in a graveyard.

And who exactly said that missionary work was safe? How many missionaries became martyrs throughout our Church's history? Did the Boxer Rebellion's massacre of China's Orthodox Christians discourage us? No, no it didn't. Did we stop taking in Muslim converts in the times of the Ottoman Empire when it actually was legal to execute apostates to Islam? No, no we did not. If no one here is willing to give up their life to spread the Gospel to Turkey, that's fine. But someday, there will be someone willing to bear that cross, and the Church will be there to aid in his or her endeavours. You all should be ashamed of yourselves for saying that missionary work is scary and dangerous; of course it's scary, but that has never stopped anyone, is not stopping anyone currently, nor will it ever stopped those called by Christ.

To be honest, I think that the EP has lagged behind the efforts of the Churches or Jerusalem and Antioch.  Even if I don't agree that it is not proper to commune OOs in EO churches, a lot of that IS happening.  The EP, rightly IMHO, has not jumped in with both feet trying to be cautious, but reaching out first to Jerusalem and Antioch to get them all on the same page would be helpful.

Where is shared communion happening? I'd like to see a source on that before I say anything about it.

Where?

You're Belarusian, from eastern Poland, and you're going to ask what lands I consider to be Eastern Catholic? How many Orthodox Christians survived in Slovakia, or in Galicia?
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« Reply #123 on: July 16, 2013, 10:56:19 PM »

Resign.

You don't have to sign with them again, it's a lifetime contract Smiley
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« Reply #124 on: February 06, 2014, 12:29:46 AM »

I'd call for an ecumenical council (but not really because Rome is absent) of EO and OO lasting 33 days preceded by a week of fasting by the faithful. All patriarchs and metropolitans present. Bishops will attend as well as some priests and deacons. We'd all sit down like civilized beings and figure this out by the grace of God. Then we'd began a 7 year plan of 14 conferences (2 a year) between the OHCA Orthodox (complete) church and the Roman Church. We'd start by having them kick out all the protestant nonsense, put the pre Vatican II liturgy back in place but in the vernacular, fix their collars and put them in black cassocks, then we'd get to brass tax. (infallibility, immaculate conception etc.) Beards will be the finishing touch. Then I'd work with the Pope of Alexandria on re-orthodox-ization of Egypt and reviving the Coptic Language. Then we clean up the Old/True Orthodox schismatics. Build a Cathedral the size of a football field and have the most epic Con-celebrated Patriarchal Pascha Liturgy IN THE WORLD.
Then we go home for turkish coffee and baklava and call it a day.

By the way that liturgy would last roughly 7 hours if we take hymns from each Rite. and the Prosphora would have to be roughly 4 feet in diameter. I'm not sure how much wine we would need.... that will be calculated after we have the count of those in attendance.
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« Reply #125 on: February 06, 2014, 12:55:17 AM »

By the way that liturgy would last roughly 7 hours if we take hymns from each Rite. and the Prosphora would have to be roughly 4 feet in diameter. I'm not sure how much wine we would need.... that will be calculated after we have the count of those in attendance.

I can already imagine the group of muscular Russians holding that massive chalice.

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« Reply #126 on: February 06, 2014, 01:03:39 AM »

Awesome picture!

Qualifications before being allowed to distribute at that liturgy are as follows: must be a part of the orthodox clergy. Must have been in the military, a lumberjack, body builder or rugby player prior to ordination. Bench pressing 400 will satisfy the previous requirement. Beard must be a minimum of 2 feet long. Must be a member of the ecumenical gym.
 
Another part of our perfect orthodoxy as agreed in the council: no shoes in the altar or while receiving any sacrament. I love that practice.
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