Author Topic: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?  (Read 4801 times)

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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2013, 07:40:10 AM »
More need to be added.

Who's missing?

Offline Alpo

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2013, 07:48:31 AM »
I would work with the Church of Greece to reunite and then move my See to Athens and be the Patriarch of Constantinople and Athens and all the Greeks. I would work with my brethren in the MP to create a Patriarchate for the Carpatho Rusyns. And I would acknowledge the status of New, New, New Rome (or Brand Spanking New Rome) and its bishop +Tikhon, Patriarch of All America and Canada and the Western Hemisphere.

Why a Patriarch for just Carpatho Rusyns, not all of the Rusyns (Ukrainians)?   Ukraine needs its own patriarchate.  The Patriarchate of Rus-Ukraine also would and should respect the plain chant tradition in the Carpathian regions.    

Many Rusyns do not identify themselves as Ukrainians just as many Ukrainians do not identify themselves as Russians. Ironic that Ukrainians want to smother Rusyns just as Russians want to smother Ukrainians.

Offline Alpo

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2013, 07:56:39 AM »
Ironic that Ukrainians want to smother Rusyns just as Russians want to smother Ukrainians.

Some things are universal. I've been recently reading biography of Ayaan Hirsi Ali. IIRC she wrote that when she lived in Saudi-Arabia her family were called as slaves by Saudis and when she lived in Kenya her mother called Kenyans as slaves.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 07:56:57 AM by Alpo »

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2013, 08:14:32 AM »
Scandinavians.

Surely the parishes in Scandinavia that most actively promote Scandinavia's Orthodox heritage are the Exarchate churches under the Ecumenical Patriarchate? In Norway, they always celebrate liturgies for Ss. Olav, Halvard, Sunniva and Trifon. I assume the same is true of Denmark and Sweden.

Also, if you go to the home page of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Thyateira and Great Britain, one of the firsts things you'll see is a little display showing icons of British Saints.

Offline Alpo

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2013, 08:21:46 AM »
Scandinavians.

Surely the parishes in Scandinavia that most actively promote Scandinavia's Orthodox heritage are the Exarchate churches under the Ecumenical Patriarchate? In Norway, they always celebrate liturgies for Ss. Olav, Halvard, Sunniva and Trifon. I assume the same is true of Denmark and Sweden.

That's nice to hear. Finland is part of the EP and I haven't encountered any interest in Scandinavian Saints in Finland. I thought same applies to other Scandinavians too.

Offline Shiny

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2013, 08:37:41 AM »
Establish two fully united autocephalous American Orthodox Churches, one in North America and Canada, and the other one in Central and South America. Canonize a Hispanic Saint.  Try reaching out to urban areas and ghettos. Anathematize Ecumenism and anyone who follows it, organize a mass Orthodox protest in front of the Hagia Sophia with Western attention and full news coverage and refuse to call it off until the Turkish government gives it back to us, finally give Ukraine its own Church so it quits complaining, and finally, give the newly established united North American Orthodox Patriarchate the first-among-equals status since the United States is like the 4th Rome.
I vote for this.
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2013, 08:41:22 AM »
That's nice to hear. Finland is part of the EP and I haven't encountered any interest in Scandinavian Saints in Finland. I thought same applies to other Scandinavians too.

Finnish interest in Scandinavian saints isn't going to come from Istanbul, it will come from Finland. Based on the EP's attitude to Western saints elsewhere, if they aren't celebrated in Finland, then it's a local, Finnish problem, not a Constantinopolitan one.

Offline scamandrius

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2013, 09:01:02 AM »
Western saints ARE in the EP calendar.

More need to be added.

Says who and why?  Besides, the person to whom I responded essentially said there were NO western saints on the EP's calendar which is patently false.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2013, 09:04:16 AM »
I would work with the Church of Greece to reunite and then move my See to Athens and be the Patriarch of Constantinople and Athens and all the Greeks. I would work with my brethren in the MP to create a Patriarchate for the Carpatho Rusyns. And I would acknowledge the status of New, New, New Rome (or Brand Spanking New Rome) and its bishop +Tikhon, Patriarch of All America and Canada and the Western Hemisphere.

Why a Patriarch for just Carpatho Rusyns, not all of the Rusyns (Ukrainians)?   Ukraine needs its own patriarchate.  The Patriarchate of Rus-Ukraine also would and should respect the plain chant tradition in the Carpathian regions.    

Many Rusyns do not identify themselves as Ukrainians just as many Ukrainians do not identify themselves as Russians. Ironic that Ukrainians want to smother Rusyns just as Russians want to smother Ukrainians.

The hypernationalists do, but most of us, at least here in the states get along. Most here are Rusyns  south of the Tatras and Ukrainians north and east of the same. How we self identify just goes on and on and no doubt seems odd to others....

The Rusyn politicians in Uzhorod, including Father Sydor, have had problems though.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #55 on: July 06, 2013, 09:06:53 AM »
Sort of a silly (with some seriousness) thing to ask, but what would you personally do, if you suddenly found yourself as Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople?
In response to what?

If nothing specific, reintroduce pipe smoking to the people.  Think of it as a sort of home censer.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 09:09:19 AM by Kerdy »

Offline Alpo

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #56 on: July 06, 2013, 09:22:15 AM »
Says who and why?

Says me. Because it's right.

Quote
Besides, the person to whom I responded essentially said there were NO western saints on the EP's calendar

Nope.

That's nice to hear. Finland is part of the EP and I haven't encountered any interest in Scandinavian Saints in Finland. I thought same applies to other Scandinavians too.

Finnish interest in Scandinavian saints isn't going to come from Istanbul, it will come from Finland. Based on the EP's attitude to Western saints elsewhere, if they aren't celebrated in Finland, then it's a local, Finnish problem, not a Constantinopolitan one.

The Scandinavians were just an example. The point of my suggestion to "what would you do if..." was to diminish the Easternness of the Church. We are not a Greco-Russian cultural centre.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 09:26:11 AM by Alpo »

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2013, 09:43:22 AM »
Sort of a silly (with some seriousness) thing to ask, but what would you personally do, if you suddenly found yourself as Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople?

I'd merge the Church of Constantinople with the Church of Greece and set up a Patriarchate or Metropolinate in Paris who will have jurisdiction over the territories which pre-1054 belonged to the Patriarchate of Rome.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2013, 10:37:48 AM »
Says who and why?

Says me. Because it's right.


Sorry, didn't know you were pope, o infallible one.

Besides, the person to whom I responded essentially said there were NO western saints on the EP's calendar

Nope.

What are you "nopeing?"  That there are no Western saints on the EP's calendar or that the person to whom I made reply was incorrect.



That's nice to hear. Finland is part of the EP and I haven't encountered any interest in Scandinavian Saints in Finland. I thought same applies to other Scandinavians too.

Finnish interest in Scandinavian saints isn't going to come from Istanbul, it will come from Finland. Based on the EP's attitude to Western saints elsewhere, if they aren't celebrated in Finland, then it's a local, Finnish problem, not a Constantinopolitan one.

+1.  Saints are a local concern first. 
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Offline Alpo

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2013, 10:50:50 AM »
Says who and why?

Says me. Because it's right.


Sorry, didn't know you were pope, o infallible one.

 :D

Come on, this is a discussion forum on internet. We all are representing ourselves here. Lighten up.



Quote from: scamandrius
What are you "nopeing?"  That there are no Western saints on the EP's calendar or that the person to whom I made reply was incorrect.

Nobody said that there are no Western Saints on the EP's calendar.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 10:51:23 AM by Alpo »

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2013, 11:31:57 AM »
I would also release a statement condemning nationalism as it relates to Orthodoxy.
Additionally, of condemn the usage of pews and organs. If the movement to canonize Archbishop Athenagoras moves forward, I'd condemn his approval of organs and publicly condemn freemasonry, while also not interfering with the process.

Offline mike

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #61 on: July 06, 2013, 11:40:11 AM »
If the movement to canonize Archbishop Athenagoras moves forward,

What?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2013, 11:49:00 AM »
Sort of a silly (with some seriousness) thing to ask, but what would you personally do, if you suddenly found yourself as Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople?

I'd merge the Church of Constantinople with the Church of Greece and set up a Patriarchate or Metropolinate in Paris who will have jurisdiction over the territories which pre-1054 belonged to the Patriarchate of Rome.

Avignon?  :)
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Offline OrthoNoob

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2013, 12:17:52 PM »
What's with all the animus about the organs?
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2013, 12:18:17 PM »
If the movement to canonize Archbishop Athenagoras moves forward,

What?

Heard the other day on an OCN program (a Sunday homily at a Greek parish) that there are many in the Greek Church seeking to have Archbishop Athenagoras recognized as a Saint.

I just hope they condemn organs and freemasonry before they do so, considering he was a Freemason and he was a large reason that so many Greek parishes here have organs and westernized music.

If he's recognized as a Saint you know there'll be idiots out there saying we have a Saint who preferred organs and wanted Orthodox worship "updated".

He felt Orthodox worship needed to be improved by adding organs and dropping Byzantine Chant in favor of very westernized music (not like Russian Churches, even more western)
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 12:22:55 PM by 88Devin12 »

Offline Agabus

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #65 on: July 06, 2013, 01:02:18 PM »
If the movement to canonize Archbishop Athenagoras moves forward,

What?

Heard the other day on an OCN program (a Sunday homily at a Greek parish) that there are many in the Greek Church seeking to have Archbishop Athenagoras recognized as a Saint.

I just hope they condemn organs and freemasonry before they do so, considering he was a Freemason and he was a large reason that so many Greek parishes here have organs and westernized music.
Look, it doesn't affect me one way or another if he WAS a freemason, but I've never actually seen any proof of it despite the many claims put forward by his ecclesial opponents. Do you have it?

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #66 on: July 06, 2013, 01:21:36 PM »
I would try to encourage getting North and South America under one or two jurisdictions, although I know it is difficult with the various jurisdictions.  Besides that, I would try to somehow work in ice-cream on fasting days. :police:

Offline OrthoNoob

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #67 on: July 06, 2013, 01:23:11 PM »
I would try to encourage getting North and South America under one or two jurisdictions, although I know it is difficult with the various jurisdictions.  Besides that, I would try to somehow work in ice-cream on fasting days. :police:

Western Rite.

You put the West under the Western Rite and you can put them under the traditional Latin fasting rules, which are pretty lenient on dairy IIRC.

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #68 on: July 06, 2013, 01:32:29 PM »
I would try to encourage getting North and South America under one or two jurisdictions, although I know it is difficult with the various jurisdictions.  Besides that, I would try to somehow work in ice-cream on fasting days. :police:

Western Rite.

You put the West under the Western Rite and you can put them under the traditional Latin fasting rules, which are pretty lenient on dairy IIRC.

I'm down for it.  :)

Re: organs, why would we have to condemn organs?  Why not just insist on not using instruments of any kind?  I visited a Greek church in a particular diocese where the Metropolitan issued such an order (acc. to the priest there) and it was obeyed.  Why condemn something that doesn't work for us but works just fine for others?  We're always so eager for the nuclear option... 
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #69 on: July 06, 2013, 01:34:54 PM »
Re: organs, why would we have to condemn organs?  Why not just insist on not using instruments of any kind? 

It's the only instrument used, so "no organ" means "no instruments". Anyway, the Greek word for instrument is organ, so either way it's "no organs" :)

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #70 on: July 06, 2013, 01:36:35 PM »
I would try to encourage getting North and South America under one or two jurisdictions, although I know it is difficult with the various jurisdictions.  Besides that, I would try to somehow work in ice-cream on fasting days. :police:

Western Rite.

You put the West under the Western Rite and you can put them under the traditional Latin fasting rules, which are pretty lenient on dairy IIRC.

That's horrible. The Byzantine Rite is way better.
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #71 on: July 06, 2013, 01:43:13 PM »
If the movement to canonize Archbishop Athenagoras moves forward,

What?

Heard the other day on an OCN program (a Sunday homily at a Greek parish) that there are many in the Greek Church seeking to have Archbishop Athenagoras recognized as a Saint.

I just hope they condemn organs and freemasonry before they do so, considering he was a Freemason and he was a large reason that so many Greek parishes here have organs and westernized music.
Look, it doesn't affect me one way or another if he WAS a freemason, but I've never actually seen any proof of it despite the many claims put forward by his ecclesial opponents. Do you have it?

Are you really asking for proof that someone was a Freemason? You realize that isn't exactly published right?

I received, a while back, information from someone in the Masons that contained a list of some living Orthodox Christians who were active Freemasons, and apparently also held positions in their parishes. I was given the information but also asked not to "out" them, I deleted the information and no longer have it.
It's not like the Freemasons are going to announce members who would face "persecution" for being Freemasons. I think the same would be for someone like Patriarch Athenagoras, whose potential Sainthood could get nixed if the Masons actually came out and acknowledged him as a Freemason. Why would they "out" someone, even posthumously, if they know it would "harm" that person or their memory?

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #72 on: July 06, 2013, 01:56:45 PM »
He was listed among "Famous Greek Masons" on the Grand Masonic Lodge of Greece website, among a number of other hierarchs of the late 19th and early 20th century. I can't seem to find the link now, though I know it has been posted on the forum before.

Of course, that's not conclusive "proof" since such a list could be entirely fabricated.

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #73 on: July 06, 2013, 02:33:25 PM »
I would try to encourage getting North and South America under one or two jurisdictions, although I know it is difficult with the various jurisdictions.  Besides that, I would try to somehow work in ice-cream on fasting days. :police:

Western Rite.

You put the West under the Western Rite and you can put them under the traditional Latin fasting rules, which are pretty lenient on dairy IIRC.

That's horrible. The Byzantine Rite is way better.

Eh.  :P
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Offline OrthoNoob

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #74 on: July 06, 2013, 03:20:31 PM »
I would try to encourage getting North and South America under one or two jurisdictions, although I know it is difficult with the various jurisdictions.  Besides that, I would try to somehow work in ice-cream on fasting days. :police:

Western Rite.

You put the West under the Western Rite and you can put them under the traditional Latin fasting rules, which are pretty lenient on dairy IIRC.

That's horrible. The Byzantine Rite is way better.

Nonsense.

The Byzantine Rite is ancient and beautiful. But so is the Latin Rite. Moreover, it evolved specifically to speak to the Western soul. In the same way that you wouldn't force Russians to use Greek chant (I hope), now that they've evolved their own, there's no need for a sort of Byzantine chauvinism that tries to deny the West its own patrimony.
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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #75 on: July 06, 2013, 03:31:16 PM »
I'd get an awesome bike.
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Offline mike

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #76 on: July 06, 2013, 03:48:15 PM »
That's horrible. The Byzantine Rite is way better.

How many fasts have you been through?

Are you really asking for proof that someone was a Freemason? You realize that isn't exactly published right?

By him? There isn't anything.

I can now create a secret society of people who pick up their noses with left hands. And I can start a blog when I can publish you are also a member of that secret society. Would it be a proof?

Quote
I received, a while back, information from someone in the Masons that contained a list of some living Orthodox Christians who were active Freemasons, and apparently also held positions in their parishes. I was given the information but also asked not to "out" them, I deleted the information and no longer have it.

LOL

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #77 on: July 06, 2013, 03:55:21 PM »
The Byzantine Rite is ancient and beautiful. But so is the Latin Rite. Moreover, it evolved specifically to speak to the Western soul. In the same way that you wouldn't force Russians to use Greek chant (I hope), now that they've evolved their own, there's no need for a sort of Byzantine chauvinism that tries to deny the West its own patrimony.

I find the idea of a 'Western soul' pretty questionable. Mediterraneans, Germans, the French, Brits, Scandinavians are very different, not to mention Americans of various stripes, Australians, Canadians, etc. For example, the idea that a Scandinavian should instinctively respond more favourably to the liturgical tradition of a Spaniard or Italian on the other edge of Europe (who are culturally far more similar to Greeks than to northern Europeans), than to the liturgical tradition of the Russians just across the border, just because of some notion of being "Western" is nonsense.

Yes, the Latin rite will seem more familiar to those Westerners who grew up with it, or rites derived from it, but in many places, certainly in northern Europe, any kind of liturgical rite is utterly alien, and their "Western souls" will be no more receptive to a Latin rite than a Byzantine one.

Znamenny chant is uniquely Russian, and has a much longer history of continuous use in Russia than the modern four-part harmony does. Yet if you would ask an average Russian what s/he's think of returning to Znamenny, most (at least in my experience) would be dead against it. But based on the pro-WR arguments for resurrecting rites used 1000 years ago, the "Russian soul" should prefer Znamenny over Germano-Italian choir music.

Good or bad, the notion that Westerners should follow the Latin liturgical rite is an ideological one.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 04:14:57 PM by Orthodox11 »

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #78 on: July 06, 2013, 04:04:15 PM »
Quote
I received, a while back, information from someone in the Masons that contained a list of some living Orthodox Christians who were active Freemasons, and apparently also held positions in their parishes. I was given the information but also asked not to "out" them, I deleted the information and no longer have it.
LOL

Do you think I'm lying?

I deleted it, not because of the Orthodox who are Freemasons, they could get excommunicated for all I care. I deleted it because the person who sent it could get in trouble if the info got out beyond myself.

I could even tell you what jurisdiction the majority of them belonged to.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 04:05:48 PM by 88Devin12 »

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #79 on: July 06, 2013, 04:10:18 PM »
Quote
I received, a while back, information from someone in the Masons that contained a list of some living Orthodox Christians who were active Freemasons, and apparently also held positions in their parishes. I was given the information but also asked not to "out" them, I deleted the information and no longer have it.
LOL

Do you think I'm lying?

Not really. I think you are joking.

Quote
I deleted it, not because of the Orthodox who are Freemasons, they could get excommunicated for all I care. I deleted it because the person who sent it could get in trouble if the info got out beyond myself.

Whatever.

Quote
I could even tell you what jurisdiction the majority of them belonged to.

Let me guess... New Calendar one? And beardless?

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #80 on: July 06, 2013, 04:14:59 PM »
Quote
I received, a while back, information from someone in the Masons that contained a list of some living Orthodox Christians who were active Freemasons, and apparently also held positions in their parishes. I was given the information but also asked not to "out" them, I deleted the information and no longer have it.
LOL

Do you think I'm lying?

Not really. I think you are joking.

Quote
I deleted it, not because of the Orthodox who are Freemasons, they could get excommunicated for all I care. I deleted it because the person who sent it could get in trouble if the info got out beyond myself.

Whatever.

Quote
I could even tell you what jurisdiction the majority of them belonged to.

Let me guess... New Calendar one? And beardless?

No, I'm not joking.

I'm not referring to some nutjob who believes in conspiracy theories, it is from someone whose been trying to convince me it's fine, and attempted to do so by showing me how many in my church are Freemasons. I don't recall any major clergy being on the list though.

Offline mike

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #81 on: July 06, 2013, 04:18:28 PM »
I'm not referring to some nutjob who believes in conspiracy theories, it is from someone whose been trying to convince me it's fine, and attempted to do so by showing me how many in my church are Freemasons. I don't recall any major clergy being on the list though.

Are you aware you are not more reliable than them?

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #82 on: July 06, 2013, 04:20:49 PM »
I'm not referring to some nutjob who believes in conspiracy theories, it is from someone whose been trying to convince me it's fine, and attempted to do so by showing me how many in my church are Freemasons. I don't recall any major clergy being on the list though.

Are you aware you are not more reliable than them?

I don't really care about convincing you. I've seen it myself, if you want to be in ignorant bliss of the fact that we have Freemasons in our Church then that is your sad choice.

My point is that it isn't unthinkable that Patriarch Athenagoras was a Freemason, and if he, in fact was one, he shouldn't ever be made a Saint. At the same time, asking for solid proof is hilarious considering how many Orthodox Christians hide their membership, and that the Freemasons don't like "outing" their members who will be "punished" for being Freemasons. I'd actually love for them to all be outed, but I wouldn't want to cause the person who leaked such information to be punished.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 04:24:33 PM by 88Devin12 »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #83 on: July 06, 2013, 05:05:44 PM »
LOL.

When I have more time....
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if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #84 on: July 06, 2013, 05:10:50 PM »
LOL.

When I have more time....

about the thread, or the OT discussion about Freemasonry? lol

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #85 on: July 06, 2013, 05:28:58 PM »
I would work with the Church of Greece to reunite and then move my See to Athens and be the Patriarch of Constantinople and Athens and all the Greeks. I would work with my brethren in the MP to create a Patriarchate for the Carpatho Rusyns. And I would acknowledge the status of New, New, New Rome (or Brand Spanking New Rome) and its bishop +Tikhon, Patriarch of All America and Canada and the Western Hemisphere.

Why a Patriarch for just Carpatho Rusyns, not all of the Rusyns (Ukrainians)?   Ukraine needs its own patriarchate.  The Patriarchate of Rus-Ukraine also would and should respect the plain chant tradition in the Carpathian regions.    

Many Rusyns do not identify themselves as Ukrainians just as many Ukrainians do not identify themselves as Russians. Ironic that Ukrainians want to smother Rusyns just as Russians want to smother Ukrainians.

My Ukrainian Greek Catholic adviser remarked on this also.
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #86 on: July 06, 2013, 05:38:40 PM »
He was listed among "Famous Greek Masons" on the Grand Masonic Lodge of Greece website, among a number of other hierarchs of the late 19th and early 20th century. I can't seem to find the link now, though I know it has been posted on the forum before.

Of course, that's not conclusive "proof" since such a list could be entirely fabricated.

I made a thread about accusations of heirarchs being freemasons because I wished to figure out where all the accusations came from. Through a lot of digging I came to the conclusion freemasonry infultrated the church hierarchy of Greece and Constantinople for a few decades but has since died out

I have tried searching all my posts for the thread, but it appears not to be listed anymore. Maybe it was deleted or something or archived, i do not know how the forum works with old posts. but I will post the evidence for PATRIARCH athenagoras again quickly, although it will take some time

EDIT: that was close!
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 06:01:25 PM by Gunnarr »
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #87 on: July 06, 2013, 05:41:30 PM »
He was listed among "Famous Greek Masons" on the Grand Masonic Lodge of Greece website, among a number of other hierarchs of the late 19th and early 20th century. I can't seem to find the link now, though I know it has been posted on the forum before.

Of course, that's not conclusive "proof" since such a list could be entirely fabricated.

I made a thread about accusations of heirarchs being freemasons because I wished to figure out where all the accusations came from. Through a lot of digging I came to the conclusion freemasonry infultrated the church hierarchy of Greece and Constantinople for a few decades but has since died out

I have tried searching all my posts for the thread, but it appears not to be listed anymore. Maybe it was deleted or something or archived, i do not know how the forum works with old posts. but I will post the evidence for athenagoras again quickly, although it will take some time

This one?
"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

Offline Gunnarr

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #88 on: July 06, 2013, 05:47:37 PM »
He was listed among "Famous Greek Masons" on the Grand Masonic Lodge of Greece website, among a number of other hierarchs of the late 19th and early 20th century. I can't seem to find the link now, though I know it has been posted on the forum before.

Of course, that's not conclusive "proof" since such a list could be entirely fabricated.

I made a thread about accusations of heirarchs being freemasons because I wished to figure out where all the accusations came from. Through a lot of digging I came to the conclusion freemasonry infultrated the church hierarchy of Greece and Constantinople for a few decades but has since died out

I have tried searching all my posts for the thread, but it appears not to be listed anymore. Maybe it was deleted or something or archived, i do not know how the forum works with old posts. but I will post the evidence for athenagoras again quickly, although it will take some time

This one?

good job :) there it is, you peoples can read all about about masonic blahblahblah

oh, and while you wrote that reply, I found the link to see those claimed to be masons by the Greek Masonics

http://www.grandlodge.gr/el/%CE%9F%CE%A4%CE%B5%CE%BA%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%B9%CF%83%CE%BC%CF%8C%CF%82/%CE%94%CE%B9%CE%B1%CE%BA%CE%B5%CE%BA%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%BC%CE%AD%CE%BD%CE%BF%CE%B9%CE%88%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%B5%CF%82%CE%A4%CE%AD%CE%BA%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%B5%CF%82.aspx

Patriarch Athenegoras is listed, but they give an asterisk saying that they do not have the files anymore to prove it, although they do have the files to prove it for other hierarchs.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 05:48:14 PM by Gunnarr »
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: What would you do... if you were Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #89 on: July 06, 2013, 05:50:45 PM »
I received, a while back, information from someone in the Masons that contained a list of some living Orthodox Christians who were active Freemasons, and apparently also held positions in their parishes. I was given the information but also asked not to "out" them, I deleted the information and no longer have it.
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