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Author Topic: Vatican to canonize two Popes  (Read 3959 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: July 09, 2013, 09:42:47 PM »

Santagranddad, #1Sinner, and Alpo,

I'm possibly going to regret getting my fingerprints on this trainwreck of a conversation, but I'll keep it short:
- The Muslims-don't-believe-God-is-triune-so-they-don't-worship-the-same-God-we-do argument doesn't work. (Do anyone seriously believe that every person in the Old Testament who didn't believe God is triune, didn't worship the same God we do?)
- However, it doesn't necessarily follow that Muslims do worship the same God we do.

It does work if you follow the teaching of Orthodoxy. But enough I'm too hot and uncomfortable to pursue a profitless debate. Best wishes.

The people in the Old Testament did in fact worship the Holy Trinity in that they worshiped God as He had revealed Himself. When the Trinity was revealed, the Jews rejected the Son and the Holy Spirit, thereby rejecting God and departing from Him.
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« Reply #91 on: July 09, 2013, 09:43:31 PM »

There is no official Orthodox approval of contraception and the concept of oikonomia predates the Great Schism.

Not to mention that the most common methods of artificial birth control postdate the holy fathers.
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« Reply #92 on: July 09, 2013, 09:50:51 PM »

Tie-dye vestments are back. A sad day.
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« Reply #93 on: July 09, 2013, 11:43:34 PM »

Did Francis of Assisi approve of boat-altars?

I have no idea, and neither do you. Cool

Also, it's my understanding that the Orthodox (at least the Netodox I've encountered here) don't even consider him a saint anyway, so would it even matter?  Roll Eyes

To the extent that Francis of Assisi is a saint for the RCC, I think it does matter what he taught about liturgy when RC's bring him up as an example of "low" liturgical sensibilities, as happened in this thread.  When it comes to what the Orthodox teach about liturgy, he's not a source I'd cite, though I think he'd have more in common with the Orthodox than with some modern RC schools of thought.  That said, I'm not about to vilify him as some deluded heretic...personally, I think, in his "delusion", he's holier than I'll likely ever be.  It's simply a fact that he wasn't a member of the Orthodox Church while he lived on earth...it need not be a judgement, though many do make it out to be such.

Regarding Francis of Assisi and liturgy, the excerpts I've read from Augustine Thompson's biography of the saint lead me to conclude that Francis would probably agree with me about boat-altars.  After all, this was the man who created the Nativity scene, doing so with live animals, but he didn't have them march in the procession at Midnight Mass.  Tongue   
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« Reply #94 on: July 10, 2013, 09:00:10 AM »

I really have nothing to add to this discussion but I came across this picture today via a blog I frequent and it reminded me of this thread, particularly the picture of Pope Francis and the ark altar.  In short, these things are not new.

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« Reply #95 on: July 10, 2013, 10:03:56 AM »

Santagranddad, #1Sinner, and Alpo,

I'm possibly going to regret getting my fingerprints on this trainwreck of a conversation, but I'll keep it short:
- The Muslims-don't-believe-God-is-triune-so-they-don't-worship-the-same-God-we-do argument doesn't work. (Do anyone seriously believe that every person in the Old Testament who didn't believe God is triune, didn't worship the same God we do?)
- However, it doesn't necessarily follow that Muslims do worship the same God we do.

It does work if you follow the teaching of Orthodoxy. But enough I'm too hot and uncomfortable to pursue a profitless debate. Best wishes.

The people in the Old Testament did in fact worship the Holy Trinity in that they worshiped God as He had revealed Himself. When the Trinity was revealed, the Jews rejected the Son and the Holy Spirit, thereby rejecting God and departing from Him.

Wasn't the Trinity revealed in Genesis 1?
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« Reply #96 on: July 10, 2013, 10:21:58 AM »

Santagranddad, #1Sinner, and Alpo,

I'm possibly going to regret getting my fingerprints on this trainwreck of a conversation, but I'll keep it short:
- The Muslims-don't-believe-God-is-triune-so-they-don't-worship-the-same-God-we-do argument doesn't work. (Do anyone seriously believe that every person in the Old Testament who didn't believe God is triune, didn't worship the same God we do?)
- However, it doesn't necessarily follow that Muslims do worship the same God we do.

It does work if you follow the teaching of Orthodoxy. But enough I'm too hot and uncomfortable to pursue a profitless debate. Best wishes.

The people in the Old Testament did in fact worship the Holy Trinity in that they worshiped God as He had revealed Himself. When the Trinity was revealed, the Jews rejected the Son and the Holy Spirit, thereby rejecting God and departing from Him.

Wasn't the Trinity revealed in Genesis 1?
Was it? Not very explicitly.
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« Reply #97 on: July 10, 2013, 10:33:16 AM »

Santagranddad, #1Sinner, and Alpo,

I'm possibly going to regret getting my fingerprints on this trainwreck of a conversation, but I'll keep it short:
- The Muslims-don't-believe-God-is-triune-so-they-don't-worship-the-same-God-we-do argument doesn't work. (Do anyone seriously believe that every person in the Old Testament who didn't believe God is triune, didn't worship the same God we do?)
- However, it doesn't necessarily follow that Muslims do worship the same God we do.

It does work if you follow the teaching of Orthodoxy. But enough I'm too hot and uncomfortable to pursue a profitless debate. Best wishes.

The people in the Old Testament did in fact worship the Holy Trinity in that they worshiped God as He had revealed Himself. When the Trinity was revealed, the Jews rejected the Son and the Holy Spirit, thereby rejecting God and departing from Him.

Wasn't the Trinity revealed in Genesis 1?
Was it? Not very explicitly.

"And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters." and "Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness""
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« Reply #98 on: July 10, 2013, 11:37:04 AM »

Santagranddad, #1Sinner, and Alpo,

I'm possibly going to regret getting my fingerprints on this trainwreck of a conversation, but I'll keep it short:
- The Muslims-don't-believe-God-is-triune-so-they-don't-worship-the-same-God-we-do argument doesn't work. (Do anyone seriously believe that every person in the Old Testament who didn't believe God is triune, didn't worship the same God we do?)
- However, it doesn't necessarily follow that Muslims do worship the same God we do.

It does work if you follow the teaching of Orthodoxy. But enough I'm too hot and uncomfortable to pursue a profitless debate. Best wishes.

The people in the Old Testament did in fact worship the Holy Trinity in that they worshiped God as He had revealed Himself. When the Trinity was revealed, the Jews rejected the Son and the Holy Spirit, thereby rejecting God and departing from Him.

Wasn't the Trinity revealed in Genesis 1?
Was it? Not very explicitly.

The Hebrew word Elohim used in Genesis 1 denotes plurality. It really is striking that this word was used rather then any number of other Hebrew words for God.
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« Reply #99 on: July 10, 2013, 11:39:35 AM »

Aw, come on, I just stormed out of another thread about Genesis, do I have to do that here too? I still haven't had my coffee.  police
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« Reply #100 on: July 10, 2013, 12:00:35 PM »

Aw, come on, I just stormed out of another thread about Genesis, do I have to do that here too? I still haven't had my coffee.  police

Not at all. This thread is also about contraception and Vatican canonizations. There's something for everybody  Grin
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« Reply #101 on: July 10, 2013, 12:05:42 PM »

Wasn't the Trinity revealed in Genesis 1?
Was it? Not very explicitly.

Sure, it doesn't say "Then the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit said 'Let us make man in our image...'".  But you have God creating everything through his Word (he utters things into existence out of nothing), and the Spirit is there hovering, brooding, over the primordial waters.

When we speak, air (our breath) has to hit the vocal cords in order to produce the voice, with which we speak.  So breath (Spirit) is always working with voice (Word) when the speaker (Father) speaks.  I forget where I read that or who said it, but I always liked that image.  
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« Reply #102 on: July 10, 2013, 12:07:10 PM »

Wasn't the Trinity revealed in Genesis 1?
Was it? Not very explicitly.

Sure, it doesn't say "Then the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit said 'Let us make man in our image...'".  But you have God creating everything through his Word (he utters things into existence out of nothing), and the Spirit is there hovering, brooding, over the primordial waters.

When we speak, air (our breath) has to hit the vocal cords in order to produce the voice, with which we speak.  So breath (Spirit) is always working with voice (Word) when the speaker (Father) speaks.  I forget where I read that or who said it, but I always liked that image.  
OK, then why did the Hebrews of the Old Testament never explicitly talk about the Trinity?
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« Reply #103 on: July 10, 2013, 12:10:31 PM »

Wasn't the Trinity revealed in Genesis 1?
Was it? Not very explicitly.

Sure, it doesn't say "Then the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit said 'Let us make man in our image...'".  But you have God creating everything through his Word (he utters things into existence out of nothing), and the Spirit is there hovering, brooding, over the primordial waters.

When we speak, air (our breath) has to hit the vocal cords in order to produce the voice, with which we speak.  So breath (Spirit) is always working with voice (Word) when the speaker (Father) speaks.  I forget where I read that or who said it, but I always liked that image.  
OK, then why did the Hebrews of the Old Testament never explicitly talk about the Trinity?

There were hints and clues as to the nature of the Godhead in the OT. Obviously things became clear in the NT. Why did they crucify the Messiah when it should have been obvious that our Lord was He whom the prophets spoke of in the OT?
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« Reply #104 on: July 10, 2013, 12:17:55 PM »

Wasn't the Trinity revealed in Genesis 1?
Was it? Not very explicitly.

Sure, it doesn't say "Then the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit said 'Let us make man in our image...'".  But you have God creating everything through his Word (he utters things into existence out of nothing), and the Spirit is there hovering, brooding, over the primordial waters.

When we speak, air (our breath) has to hit the vocal cords in order to produce the voice, with which we speak.  So breath (Spirit) is always working with voice (Word) when the speaker (Father) speaks.  I forget where I read that or who said it, but I always liked that image.  
OK, then why did the Hebrews of the Old Testament never explicitly talk about the Trinity?

There were hints and clues as to the nature of the Godhead in the OT. Obviously things became clear in the NT. Why did they crucify the Messiah when it should have been obvious that our Lord was He whom the prophets spoke of in the OT?
There may have been hints in the Old Testament, but that doesn't mean it was explicit. In fact, even the Church Fathers' understanding of the Trinity developed over time.
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« Reply #105 on: July 10, 2013, 12:45:50 PM »

Wasn't the Trinity revealed in Genesis 1?
Was it? Not very explicitly.

Sure, it doesn't say "Then the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit said 'Let us make man in our image...'".  But you have God creating everything through his Word (he utters things into existence out of nothing), and the Spirit is there hovering, brooding, over the primordial waters.

When we speak, air (our breath) has to hit the vocal cords in order to produce the voice, with which we speak.  So breath (Spirit) is always working with voice (Word) when the speaker (Father) speaks.  I forget where I read that or who said it, but I always liked that image.  
OK, then why did the Hebrews of the Old Testament never explicitly talk about the Trinity?

There were hints and clues as to the nature of the Godhead in the OT. Obviously things became clear in the NT. Why did they crucify the Messiah when it should have been obvious that our Lord was He whom the prophets spoke of in the OT?
There may have been hints in the Old Testament, but that doesn't mean it was explicit. In fact, even the Church Fathers' understanding of the Trinity developed over time.

I didn't say it was explicit. Why does it have to be? We accept the Temple sacrifices as prefiguring Christ's sacrifice, the OT priesthood prefiguring the NT priesthood, the Brazen Serpent and the spotless passover lamb as prefiguring our Lord. I would say that the Fathers' understanding wasn't what developed as much as the language needed to clarify and exclude error developed. The first several articles of the Creed formulated at Nicea were based off of an already used prayer used during the rite of Baptism. So we see the doctrine was believed but after Christianity became not only legal but the official religion of the Empire, refinement and clarification was needed in order to exclude error.
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« Reply #106 on: July 10, 2013, 12:54:07 PM »

Wasn't the Trinity revealed in Genesis 1?
Was it? Not very explicitly.

Sure, it doesn't say "Then the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit said 'Let us make man in our image...'".  But you have God creating everything through his Word (he utters things into existence out of nothing), and the Spirit is there hovering, brooding, over the primordial waters.

When we speak, air (our breath) has to hit the vocal cords in order to produce the voice, with which we speak.  So breath (Spirit) is always working with voice (Word) when the speaker (Father) speaks.  I forget where I read that or who said it, but I always liked that image.  
OK, then why did the Hebrews of the Old Testament never explicitly talk about the Trinity?

There were hints and clues as to the nature of the Godhead in the OT. Obviously things became clear in the NT. Why did they crucify the Messiah when it should have been obvious that our Lord was He whom the prophets spoke of in the OT?
There may have been hints in the Old Testament, but that doesn't mean it was explicit. In fact, even the Church Fathers' understanding of the Trinity developed over time.

This is a truth many people seem to forget.
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« Reply #107 on: July 10, 2013, 03:31:18 PM »


OK, then why did the Hebrews of the Old Testament never explicitly talk about the Trinity?

They never explicitly talked about Jesus either.  So? 
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« Reply #108 on: July 10, 2013, 03:33:14 PM »


OK, then why did the Hebrews of the Old Testament never explicitly talk about the Trinity?

They never explicitly talked about Jesus either.  So? 
Well, for one, Jesus didn't exist.  He would have been the Pre-Incarnate Word  Wink
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« Reply #109 on: July 10, 2013, 03:36:48 PM »


OK, then why did the Hebrews of the Old Testament never explicitly talk about the Trinity?

They never explicitly talked about Jesus either.  So? 
My point is that to claim that the Old Testament teaches the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is a bit absurd. Can we say there were hints and prefigures? Certainly, but did the authors even understand the text in that way?
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« Reply #110 on: July 10, 2013, 04:09:39 PM »

My point is that to claim that the Old Testament teaches the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is a bit absurd. Can we say there were hints and prefigures? Certainly, but did the authors even understand the text in that way?

Well, I agree that the OT authors probably did not understand the text in that way.  But surely it is a leap of Judaic proportions to conclude that the OT does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity. 

In Acts 2.14ff, St Peter cites the prophecy of Joel to explain what was happening before the Jewish people on Pentecost.  Did the prophet make his prophecy explicitly knowing and teaching that it referred to the descent of the Holy Spirit on the apostles of the second Person of the Holy Trinity in the upper room of the house of Mark in Jerusalem during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea?  Probably not.  But that doesn't stop St Peter from saying this was definitely what Joel was talking about. 

As Christians, and especially as Orthodox (and RC's too, I should think), we ought not make too much of a dichotomy between the OT and the NT, as if they're two separate things.  They are to the Jews, but we're not Jewish for a reason.  In the light of Christ, we can see and understand the true meaning of the OT Scriptures and what they were teaching all along.  In Christ, as St Paul teaches, the veil is removed (cf. II Cor. 3.12-18).  There's no need to put it back on.   
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« Reply #111 on: July 10, 2013, 05:58:53 PM »

My point is that to claim that the Old Testament teaches the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is a bit absurd. Can we say there were hints and prefigures? Certainly, but did the authors even understand the text in that way?

Well, I agree that the OT authors probably did not understand the text in that way.  But surely it is a leap of Judaic proportions to conclude that the OT does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity. 

In Acts 2.14ff, St Peter cites the prophecy of Joel to explain what was happening before the Jewish people on Pentecost.  Did the prophet make his prophecy explicitly knowing and teaching that it referred to the descent of the Holy Spirit on the apostles of the second Person of the Holy Trinity in the upper room of the house of Mark in Jerusalem during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea?  Probably not.  But that doesn't stop St Peter from saying this was definitely what Joel was talking about. 

As Christians, and especially as Orthodox (and RC's too, I should think), we ought not make too much of a dichotomy between the OT and the NT, as if they're two separate things.  They are to the Jews, but we're not Jewish for a reason.  In the light of Christ, we can see and understand the true meaning of the OT Scriptures and what they were teaching all along.  In Christ, as St Paul teaches, the veil is removed (cf. II Cor. 3.12-18).  There's no need to put it back on.   
Well, I agree with you that the Triune God is there in the Old Testament, but we need to keep in mind that we only see that in light of the Revelation of Christ.
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« Reply #112 on: July 10, 2013, 06:27:04 PM »

Well, I agree with you that the Triune God is there in the Old Testament, but we need to keep in mind that we only see that in light of the Revelation of Christ.

Of course.  I think we largely agree.  But I'm hesitant to say that we "only" see that in light of Christ if, by that, we mean that it isn't really in the text.  It is definitely in the text, but only in light of Christ could we see that.  Jews and other non-Trinitarians might argue that it isn't actually in the text, and that we are reading our doctrines into the Scriptures.  As Christians, that is not a viable option, IMO. 

I think, in a sense, we have to affirm with St Justin Martyr (if I'm not mistaken) that the OT is our book more than it is the book of the Jews, because only we understand it and teach it the way God intended from the beginning.  So as Christians, we are able to say truthfully that the Trinity is/was revealed in the pages of the OT: if that was not clear, it was so only from the time of authorship to the revelation of Christ.  In other words, it was a temporary situation, not a permanent feature of those Scriptures.   
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« Reply #113 on: July 10, 2013, 10:54:43 PM »

Santagranddad, #1Sinner, and Alpo,

I'm possibly going to regret getting my fingerprints on this trainwreck of a conversation, but I'll keep it short:
- The Muslims-don't-believe-God-is-triune-so-they-don't-worship-the-same-God-we-do argument doesn't work. (Do anyone seriously believe that every person in the Old Testament who didn't believe God is triune, didn't worship the same God we do?)
- However, it doesn't necessarily follow that Muslims do worship the same God we do.

It does work if you follow the teaching of Orthodoxy. But enough I'm too hot and uncomfortable to pursue a profitless debate. Best wishes.

The people in the Old Testament did in fact worship the Holy Trinity in that they worshiped God as He had revealed Himself. When the Trinity was revealed, the Jews rejected the Son and the Holy Spirit, thereby rejecting God and departing from Him.

Wasn't the Trinity revealed in Genesis 1?

No. Not explicitly. It was a shadow, a prophecy.
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« Reply #114 on: July 10, 2013, 10:57:55 PM »


OK, then why did the Hebrews of the Old Testament never explicitly talk about the Trinity?

They never explicitly talked about Jesus either.  So? 
My point is that to claim that the Old Testament teaches the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is a bit absurd. Can we say there were hints and prefigures? Certainly, but did the authors even understand the text in that way?

Did Isaiah know about what he wrote when he prophesied, "Behold, My Servant shall proper?" Or David when he said, "They have pierced My hands and My feet?"
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« Reply #115 on: July 10, 2013, 10:59:05 PM »

Well, I agree with you that the Triune God is there in the Old Testament, but we need to keep in mind that we only see that in light of the Revelation of Christ.

Of course.  I think we largely agree.  But I'm hesitant to say that we "only" see that in light of Christ if, by that, we mean that it isn't really in the text.  It is definitely in the text, but only in light of Christ could we see that.  Jews and other non-Trinitarians might argue that it isn't actually in the text, and that we are reading our doctrines into the Scriptures.  As Christians, that is not a viable option, IMO. 

I think, in a sense, we have to affirm with St Justin Martyr (if I'm not mistaken) that the OT is our book more than it is the book of the Jews, because only we understand it and teach it the way God intended from the beginning.  So as Christians, we are able to say truthfully that the Trinity is/was revealed in the pages of the OT: if that was not clear, it was so only from the time of authorship to the revelation of Christ.  In other words, it was a temporary situation, not a permanent feature of those Scriptures.   

Amen
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« Reply #116 on: July 12, 2013, 06:11:18 PM »



I was talking more about the blatant modernism, indifferentism and syncretism of the above two pontiffs, especially JP II "the great."

YEah, as a former RC I can't believe they are canonizing John XXIII who started the Second Vatican council which has essentially destroyed the RC and as for "The Great" there was nothing great about him. An indifferent syncretic modernist who called the Asissi meeting in 86 not to mention all the liturgical abuse he allowed and promoted.
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« Reply #117 on: July 12, 2013, 06:12:44 PM »

Ask a Muslim if Christians worship the same God as them. The answer is a solid no!  The consider us polytheists.
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« Reply #118 on: July 12, 2013, 07:03:51 PM »

Ask a Muslim if Christians worship the same God as them. The answer is a solid no!  The consider us polytheists.

Not all Muslims say that. And even if they did, so what? The Jews don't believe in the Trinity either; do they not worship the same God?

(Oh wait, I forgot, this is OC.net. Never mind.  Roll Eyes )
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« Reply #119 on: July 12, 2013, 07:24:22 PM »

I'm locking this thread it is way out of control and not anywhere near to staying on topic. -username! Orthodox-Catholic Moderator
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