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Author Topic: Vatican to canonize two Popes  (Read 4048 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 05, 2013, 01:17:02 PM »

Pope John Paul II and John XXIII to be canonized as saints.
Orthodox opinion?
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« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2013, 01:22:41 PM »

Pope John Paul II and John XXIII to be canonized as saints.
Orthodox opinion?

From what I know of their lives, they both seemed to be very good men who lived honorable and godly lives.  Both strove for greater interaction with the Orthodox Church.  I am very much inspired by the life of Pope John Paul II. 
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« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2013, 01:25:28 PM »

Don't care. God makes saints not men.
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« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2013, 01:33:35 PM »

This appears to be a matter for them and not Orthodox Christians.
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« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2013, 01:58:28 PM »

This appears to be a matter for them and not Orthodox Christians.
QFT

It doesn't affect us so why should we care?
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« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2013, 02:00:49 PM »

This appears to be a matter for them and not Orthodox Christians.

This appears to be a matter for them and not Orthodox Christians.
QFT

It doesn't affect us so why should we care?

When has that stopped people here from commenting before?  police
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« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2013, 02:05:12 PM »

This appears to be a matter for them and not Orthodox Christians.
QFT

It doesn't affect us so why should we care?

Certainly hasn't stopped some of the atheist idiots out there. Just look at Reddit's /r/atheism section today.
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« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2013, 02:06:16 PM »

This appears to be a matter for them and not Orthodox Christians.
QFT

It doesn't affect us so why should we care?

We will have to care because the next time some imbecilic media person asks about the saints in the Orthodox Church and will automatically assume that John XXIII and JP II are both ours, we will need to be insistent on correcting them.
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« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2013, 02:37:05 PM »

This appears to be a matter for them and not Orthodox Christians.
QFT

It doesn't affect us so why should we care?

We will have to care because the next time some imbecilic media person asks about the saints in the Orthodox Church and will automatically assume that John XXIII and JP II are both ours, we will need to be insistent on correcting them.

If asked, we will.
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« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2013, 03:22:12 PM »

This appears to be a matter for them and not Orthodox Christians.
QFT

It doesn't affect us so why should we care?

We will have to care because the next time some imbecilic media person asks about the saints in the Orthodox Church and will automatically assume that John XXIII and JP II are both ours, we will need to be insistent on correcting them.
Or we could say "there was a schism in the 11th century, they are not Orthodox nor are they saints."
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« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2013, 03:32:57 PM »

This appears to be a matter for them and not Orthodox Christians.
QFT

It doesn't affect us so why should we care?

We will have to care because the next time some imbecilic media person asks about the saints in the Orthodox Church and will automatically assume that John XXIII and JP II are both ours, we will need to be insistent on correcting them.
Or we could say "there was a schism in the 11th century, they are not Orthodox nor are they saints in our church"

FTFY
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« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2013, 03:43:56 PM »

Well, I care and I think its great.

If you want a better Orthodox opinion on the matter of Blessed Pope John Paul II's canonization, here you go:

Quote
"He [Blessed John Paul II] was a great Pope, perhaps one of the greatest in the entire history of the Roman Catholic Church... He was the most influential religious leader of modernity, and he made an impact on the entire human civilization. Indeed, his influence went far beyond the Roman Catholic Church, which he headed for more than a quarter of a century.

"His message was heard and appreciated by millions of people all over the world, not only Catholics, but also Orthodox, Protestants, Anglicans, Jews, Muslims, people of other faiths and, what is perhaps even more remarkable, by people of no faith."

This is from Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev of the Russian Orthodox Church back in 2005 (when he was just a bishop). Taken from here: http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/russian-orthodox-official-hopeful-for-a-prompt-beatification

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« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2013, 04:15:08 PM »

This appears to be a matter for them and not Orthodox Christians.
QFT

It doesn't affect us so why should we care?

There are a lot of things going on around the World which doesn't affect me, but I think many people would be quite offended, if I told them that I didn't care about them.

Pope John Paul II was a very popular and influencial pope and his legacy certainly hasn't been small. Just because this event doesn't involve us directly, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't talk about it. This event will be of great importance to millions of people around the world and I honestly can't see why discussing this would be so bad.
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« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2013, 04:15:49 PM »

Well, I care and I think its great.

If you want a better Orthodox opinion on the matter of Blessed Pope John Paul II's canonization, here you go:

Quote
"He [Blessed John Paul II] was a great Pope, perhaps one of the greatest in the entire history of the Roman Catholic Church... He was the most influential religious leader of modernity, and he made an impact on the entire human civilization. Indeed, his influence went far beyond the Roman Catholic Church, which he headed for more than a quarter of a century.

"His message was heard and appreciated by millions of people all over the world, not only Catholics, but also Orthodox, Protestants, Anglicans, Jews, Muslims, people of other faiths and, what is perhaps even more remarkable, by people of no faith."

This is from Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev of the Russian Orthodox Church back in 2005 (when he was just a bishop). Taken from here: http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/russian-orthodox-official-hopeful-for-a-prompt-beatification



An opinion from a bishop of the MP noted for his ecumenical fervour, but I question whether his enthusiasm reflects the mind of the Church through the ages, or rather a Papaphile mindset that sadly is not new. Metropolitan Hilarion (Alfeyev) has his view as do you, but others may not share them including myself.
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« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2013, 04:28:01 PM »

Well, I care and I think its great.

If you want a better Orthodox opinion on the matter of Blessed Pope John Paul II's canonization, here you go:

Quote
"He [Blessed John Paul II] was a great Pope, perhaps one of the greatest in the entire history of the Roman Catholic Church... He was the most influential religious leader of modernity, and he made an impact on the entire human civilization. Indeed, his influence went far beyond the Roman Catholic Church, which he headed for more than a quarter of a century.

"His message was heard and appreciated by millions of people all over the world, not only Catholics, but also Orthodox, Protestants, Anglicans, Jews, Muslims, people of other faiths and, what is perhaps even more remarkable, by people of no faith."

This is from Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev of the Russian Orthodox Church back in 2005 (when he was just a bishop). Taken from here: http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/russian-orthodox-official-hopeful-for-a-prompt-beatification



An opinion from a bishop of the MP noted for his ecumenical fervour, but I question whether his enthusiasm reflects the mind of the Church through the ages, or rather a Papaphile mindset that sadly is not new. Metropolitan Hilarion (Alfeyev) has his view as do you, but others may not share them including myself.

I understand that. The OP was asking for Orthodox opinion, and I gave him one, as did you. Of course, I find Metropolitan Hilarion's opinion more authoritative (than both yours and mine) because, well, he's a bishop.  I also don't think his attitude is "papaphile". I think he understands that if Orthodoxy has a chance of survival, we have to get rid of our ghetto and isolationist mentality.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 04:28:38 PM by Andrew21091 » Logged
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« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2013, 04:52:18 PM »

While I agree that Orthodoxy ought not be ghetto and isolationist, I disagree that it is imperative to our survival. Orthodoxy has always and will always survive, regardless of what our personal opinions are on the matter. It is not up to us, but the Holy Spirit.
Well, I care and I think its great.

If you want a better Orthodox opinion on the matter of Blessed Pope John Paul II's canonization, here you go:

Quote
"He [Blessed John Paul II] was a great Pope, perhaps one of the greatest in the entire history of the Roman Catholic Church... He was the most influential religious leader of modernity, and he made an impact on the entire human civilization. Indeed, his influence went far beyond the Roman Catholic Church, which he headed for more than a quarter of a century.

"His message was heard and appreciated by millions of people all over the world, not only Catholics, but also Orthodox, Protestants, Anglicans, Jews, Muslims, people of other faiths and, what is perhaps even more remarkable, by people of no faith."

This is from Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev of the Russian Orthodox Church back in 2005 (when he was just a bishop). Taken from here: http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/russian-orthodox-official-hopeful-for-a-prompt-beatification



An opinion from a bishop of the MP noted for his ecumenical fervour, but I question whether his enthusiasm reflects the mind of the Church through the ages, or rather a Papaphile mindset that sadly is not new. Metropolitan Hilarion (Alfeyev) has his view as do you, but others may not share them including myself.

I understand that. The OP was asking for Orthodox opinion, and I gave him one, as did you. Of course, I find Metropolitan Hilarion's opinion more authoritative (than both yours and mine) because, well, he's a bishop.  I also don't think his attitude is "papaphile". I think he understands that if Orthodoxy has a chance of survival, we have to get rid of our ghetto and isolationist mentality.
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« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2013, 05:36:37 PM »

I think it's fantastic. Two very holy men for us Catholics to emulate. Where they perfect? No, but neither was St. Peter, who they both areo supposed to represent.
In any case, I'm really excited for the day when we Catholics refer to Pope St. John Paul the Great. His encyclicals and teachings were a powerful return to Thomistic tradition of the of the Western Church, and he defended the moral teachings of the faith in the face of widespread liberal opposition.

Blessed John Paul and Blessed John pray for us.
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« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2013, 05:50:52 PM »

Generally, I'm with the "They're not Orthodox, so it's not our business" camp on this one.  I like both popes, insofar as I know anything about them, and trust that they must've been quite holy if their sanctity as popes and in spite of being popes is being recognised by their own Church.  To be holy and a bishop is difficult, never mind being a pope the way the RC's regard them.  And, say whatever you want about them, but no one denies their personal sanctity (except the "They're no good if they're not us" types).   

I find the exemption of John XXIII from needing one more approved miracle for canonisation to be interesting.  As Orthodox, we don't require such posthumous demonstrations of our saints in order to recognise them as saints, so it's not like we'd have a problem with such a waiver.  But in my experience, this is held up by Catholics as a positive element of their process, heaven's confirmation as it were of a person's sanctity.  And yet, it was dispensed with for the pope who convened the Second Vatican Council in its fiftieth anniversary year.  Rubber stamp?   
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« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2013, 08:53:02 PM »

Don't care. God makes saints not men.

clarification:  God makes saints, men do not make saints.  God makes men.
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« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2013, 09:13:54 PM »

Eh, they're working on canonizing every pope in the 20th century when previously there had been very few papal saints in the last 500 years. The evidence is not that outstanding. It seems more a ploy to reinforce the position of the papacy, something which has been going on since Pius IX.
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« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2013, 09:41:26 PM »

But after Pius X, there's a gap until you get to the Second Vatican Council, and then just about every dead pope has a cause of canonisation open.  Pius XII's case is pending and no one is rushing that, and I'm not sure if the other 20th century popes even have cases open.  Curious.
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« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2013, 09:48:02 PM »

But after Pius X, there's a gap until you get to the Second Vatican Council, and then just about every dead pope has a cause of canonisation open.  Pius XII's case is pending and no one is rushing that, and I'm not sure if the other 20th century popes even have cases open.  Curious.

I thought there was some do-to with canonizing Pius XI, too.
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« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2013, 01:38:46 AM »

Well, I care and I think its great.

If you want a better Orthodox opinion on the matter of Blessed Pope John Paul II's canonization, here you go:

Quote
"He [Blessed John Paul II] was a great Pope, perhaps one of the greatest in the entire history of the Roman Catholic Church... He was the most influential religious leader of modernity, and he made an impact on the entire human civilization. Indeed, his influence went far beyond the Roman Catholic Church, which he headed for more than a quarter of a century.

"His message was heard and appreciated by millions of people all over the world, not only Catholics, but also Orthodox, Protestants, Anglicans, Jews, Muslims, people of other faiths and, what is perhaps even more remarkable, by people of no faith."

This is from Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev of the Russian Orthodox Church back in 2005 (when he was just a bishop). Taken from here: http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/russian-orthodox-official-hopeful-for-a-prompt-beatification



Metropolitan Hilarios also said Muslims and Orthodox worship the same god.

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« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2013, 01:50:46 AM »

Well, I care and I think its great.

If you want a better Orthodox opinion on the matter of Blessed Pope John Paul II's canonization, here you go:

Quote
"He [Blessed John Paul II] was a great Pope, perhaps one of the greatest in the entire history of the Roman Catholic Church... He was the most influential religious leader of modernity, and he made an impact on the entire human civilization. Indeed, his influence went far beyond the Roman Catholic Church, which he headed for more than a quarter of a century.

"His message was heard and appreciated by millions of people all over the world, not only Catholics, but also Orthodox, Protestants, Anglicans, Jews, Muslims, people of other faiths and, what is perhaps even more remarkable, by people of no faith."

This is from Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev of the Russian Orthodox Church back in 2005 (when he was just a bishop). Taken from here: http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/russian-orthodox-official-hopeful-for-a-prompt-beatification



Metropolitan Hilarios also said Muslims and Orthodox worship the same god.



Where?
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« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2013, 05:15:27 AM »

Metropolitan Hilarios also said Muslims and Orthodox worship the same god.

He is in good company. AFAIK at least St. John Damascene said that too.
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« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2013, 08:59:36 AM »

But after Pius X, there's a gap until you get to the Second Vatican Council, and then just about every dead pope has a cause of canonisation open.  Pius XII's case is pending and no one is rushing that, and I'm not sure if the other 20th century popes even have cases open.  Curious.
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« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2013, 09:20:38 AM »

Metropolitan Hilarios also said Muslims and Orthodox worship the same god.

He is in good company. AFAIK at least St. John Damascene said that too.

Then you appear not to have read St John's "Heresy of the Ishmaelites"? It is true that he has some company among Orthodox heirarchs who should know better. The God that the Mohammedans worship is not the Triune God that the Christian Orthodox worship as a reading of the New Testament and the Quran quickly illustrate.

THE QURAN

The similitude of Jesus before God is that of Adam: He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be", And he was. sura 3, 59

NEW TESTAMENT

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made...... And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the Only-begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth. John 1:1-3, 14

THE QURAN

Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God. ....Say, not 'Trinity': desist: for God is One God: Glory be to Him: (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. Sura 4: 173

NEW TESTAMENT

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and everyone that Loveth Him that begat Loveth Him also that is begotten of Him..... For there are Three that bear witness in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these Three are One. John 5: 1, 7

How then can anyone, clergy or lay, say that the God worshipped by the Mohammedans and the Christian Orthodox are one and the same?

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« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2013, 01:53:40 PM »

Eh, they're working on canonizing every pope in the 20th century when previously there had been very few papal saints in the last 500 years. The evidence is not that outstanding. It seems more a ploy to reinforce the position of the papacy, something which has been going on since Pius IX.

Understandable that you would feel that way.

Personally, though, I just have to say that all our recent popes have been great (and I'm no ultramontanist). Especially Pope Benedict XVI.
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« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2013, 05:14:47 PM »

Well, I care and I think its great.

If you want a better Orthodox opinion on the matter of Blessed Pope John Paul II's canonization, here you go:

Quote
"He [Blessed John Paul II] was a great Pope, perhaps one of the greatest in the entire history of the Roman Catholic Church... He was the most influential religious leader of modernity, and he made an impact on the entire human civilization. Indeed, his influence went far beyond the Roman Catholic Church, which he headed for more than a quarter of a century.

"His message was heard and appreciated by millions of people all over the world, not only Catholics, but also Orthodox, Protestants, Anglicans, Jews, Muslims, people of other faiths and, what is perhaps even more remarkable, by people of no faith."

This is from Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev of the Russian Orthodox Church back in 2005 (when he was just a bishop). Taken from here: http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/russian-orthodox-official-hopeful-for-a-prompt-beatification



Metropolitan Hilarios also said Muslims and Orthodox worship the same god.



That's not hilarious.
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« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2013, 07:36:22 PM »

This isn't about canonizing these particular popes. This is about canonizing Vatican II and all the novelty that flowed from it.

Thank God this isn't my problem anymore.
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« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2013, 07:38:14 PM »

I think it's fantastic. Two very holy men for us Catholics to emulate. Where they perfect? No, but neither was St. Peter, who they both areo supposed to represent.
In any case, I'm really excited for the day when we Catholics refer to Pope St. John Paul the Great. His encyclicals and teachings were a powerful return to Thomistic tradition of the of the Western Church, and he defended the moral teachings of the faith in the face of widespread liberal opposition.

Blessed John Paul and Blessed John pray for us.

I'm glad you were able to make peace with the blatant contradiction between these two popes' actions and words and the pre-VII popes. Try as I may, I simply wasn't able to.
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« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2013, 08:46:50 PM »

I think it's fantastic. Two very holy men for us Catholics to emulate. Where they perfect? No, but neither was St. Peter, who they both areo supposed to represent.
In any case, I'm really excited for the day when we Catholics refer to Pope St. John Paul the Great. His encyclicals and teachings were a powerful return to Thomistic tradition of the of the Western Church, and he defended the moral teachings of the faith in the face of widespread liberal opposition.

Blessed John Paul and Blessed John pray for us.

I'm glad you were able to make peace with the blatant contradiction between these two popes' actions and words and the pre-VII popes. Try as I may, I simply wasn't able to.

You mean like Pope Pius IX saying "I am tradition" (if that really happened)? I'd say that deserved to be contradicted.
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« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2013, 09:00:45 PM »

I think it's fantastic. Two very holy men for us Catholics to emulate. Where they perfect? No, but neither was St. Peter, who they both areo supposed to represent.
In any case, I'm really excited for the day when we Catholics refer to Pope St. John Paul the Great. His encyclicals and teachings were a powerful return to Thomistic tradition of the of the Western Church, and he defended the moral teachings of the faith in the face of widespread liberal opposition.

Blessed John Paul and Blessed John pray for us.

I'm glad you were able to make peace with the blatant contradiction between these two popes' actions and words and the pre-VII popes. Try as I may, I simply wasn't able to.

You mean like Pope Pius IX saying "I am tradition" (if that really happened)? I'd say that deserved to be contradicted.

I couldn't agree more! That's why I'm Orthodox.

I was talking more about the blatant modernism, indifferentism and syncretism of the above two pontiffs, especially JP II "the great."
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« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2013, 08:36:00 PM »

This isn't about canonizing these particular popes. This is about canonizing Vatican II and all the novelty that flowed from it.

Thank God this isn't my problem anymore.

And further solidifying the position of the papacy as a supra-ecclesiastical and supra-temporal institution.
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« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2013, 08:39:11 PM »

I think it's fantastic. Two very holy men for us Catholics to emulate. Where they perfect? No, but neither was St. Peter, who they both areo supposed to represent.
In any case, I'm really excited for the day when we Catholics refer to Pope St. John Paul the Great. His encyclicals and teachings were a powerful return to Thomistic tradition of the of the Western Church, and he defended the moral teachings of the faith in the face of widespread liberal opposition.

Blessed John Paul and Blessed John pray for us.

I'm glad you were able to make peace with the blatant contradiction between these two popes' actions and words and the pre-VII popes. Try as I may, I simply wasn't able to.

You mean like Pope Pius IX saying "I am tradition" (if that really happened)? I'd say that deserved to be contradicted.

I couldn't agree more! That's why I'm Orthodox.

I was talking more about the blatant modernism, indifferentism and syncretism of the above two pontiffs, especially JP II "the great."

Indeed. The first miracles of John Paul II were making altar girls and giving communion to non-Catholics.
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« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2013, 11:19:48 PM »

October 1986 at Assisi Pope John Paul ll oversaw an horrendous syncretic gathering of world religions and they want to 'canonise' him? And since then the RCC celebrates at intervals this event. Sorry, but they just add to their errors.
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« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2013, 11:29:51 PM »

You Orthodox are going to regret your words about Pope John Paul II when the Orthodox or Catholics reunite.
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« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2013, 11:33:49 PM »

You Orthodox are going to regret your words about Pope John Paul II when the Orthodox or Catholics reunite.

Yet another reason why reunification ain't gonna happen any time soon ...and he's not the only one venerated by the RC whom the Orthodox would have a major problem venerating.

I'm not being polemical, just practical.
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« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2013, 11:49:45 PM »

You Orthodox are going to regret your words about Pope John Paul II when the Orthodox or Catholics reunite.

Nope.
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« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2013, 12:36:46 AM »

Metropolitan Hilarios also said Muslims and Orthodox worship the same god.

He is in good company. AFAIK at least St. John Damascene said that too.

Then you appear not to have read St John's "Heresy of the Ishmaelites"?

Nope. But that could be what I'm referring to. Note that St. John talks about "heresy" and not "paganism" or anything like that. Heretics might be wrong but they have the same God as we have.
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« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2013, 04:25:28 AM »

Metropolitan Hilarios also said Muslims and Orthodox worship the same god.

He is in good company. AFAIK at least St. John Damascene said that too.

Then you appear not to have read St John's "Heresy of the Ishmaelites"?

Nope. But that could be what I'm referring to. Note that St. John talks about "heresy" and not "paganism" or anything like that. Heretics might be wrong but they have the same God as we have.

Same God? No, we worship a Triune God which they deny. In his opening sentence St John refers to the teaching of the Ishmaelites keeping them in error and being a forerunner of the Antichrist.
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« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2013, 07:30:49 AM »

No, we worship a Triune God which they deny. In his opening sentence St John refers to the teaching of the Ishmaelites keeping them in error and being a forerunner of the Antichrist.

So? Heretics still believe in the same God as we do. Muslims are not pagans.
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« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2013, 08:04:20 AM »

No, we worship a Triune God which they deny. In his opening sentence St John refers to the teaching of the Ishmaelites keeping them in error and being a forerunner of the Antichrist.

So? Heretics still believe in the same God as we do. Muslims are not pagans.

So? By heretics I assume you mean Protestants and perhaps Roman Catholics. Of course we worship the same God in that case since we are all believers in the One God in Three Persons. But if you and I both claim to know a guy named "Joe" and you tell me that he is 6 foot 6 and weighs three hundred pounds and is bald, when in reality "Joe" is 5 foot 6 with long blond hair and weighs a buck 20 soaking wet: we aren't talking about the same guy. Likewise for the idea that Christians and non-Christians believe in or worship the same God. We are talking about two very different deities.

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« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2013, 09:52:12 AM »

I think it's fantastic. Two very holy men for us Catholics to emulate. Where they perfect? No, but neither was St. Peter, who they both areo supposed to represent.
In any case, I'm really excited for the day when we Catholics refer to Pope St. John Paul the Great. His encyclicals and teachings were a powerful return to Thomistic tradition of the of the Western Church, and he defended the moral teachings of the faith in the face of widespread liberal opposition.

Blessed John Paul and Blessed John pray for us.

I'm glad you were able to make peace with the blatant contradiction between these two popes' actions and words and the pre-VII popes. Try as I may, I simply wasn't able to.

You mean like Pope Pius IX saying "I am tradition" (if that really happened)? I'd say that deserved to be contradicted.

I couldn't agree more! That's why I'm Orthodox.

I was talking more about the blatant modernism, indifferentism and syncretism of the above two pontiffs, especially JP II "the great."
Modernism like allowing contraception indirect contradiction of the Fathers?
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« Reply #44 on: July 09, 2013, 10:03:25 AM »

No, we worship a Triune God which they deny. In his opening sentence St John refers to the teaching of the Ishmaelites keeping them in error and being a forerunner of the Antichrist.

So? Heretics still believe in the same God as we do. Muslims are not pagans.

So? By heretics I assume you mean Protestants and perhaps Roman Catholics. Of course we worship the same God in that case since we are all believers in the One God in Three Persons. But if you and I both claim to know a guy named "Joe" and you tell me that he is 6 foot 6 and weighs three hundred pounds and is bald, when in reality "Joe" is 5 foot 6 with long blond hair and weighs a buck 20 soaking wet: we aren't talking about the same guy. Likewise for the idea that Christians and non-Christians believe in or worship the same God. We are talking about two very different deities.



And how Alpo can look at Scripture and then the Quran and come to the staggering conclusion that we and they worship one and the same God beggars belief. Look at the two and stop hairsplitting over St John's title for his work. Does or will the Antichrist worship our God? No. And how does St. John, who ridicules Mohammed's whole standing and teaching, describe this false prophet? As a forerunner of the Antichrist.

Just because people worship a single deity as opposed to a pantheon does not mean their God is our God. And to say the God worshipped by the Mohammedans is one and the same as the True God is to deny the Holy Trinity. Something many of our spiritual forebears would have refused to do, even in peril of their lives.

At least in the past the gathering of the faithful developed antibodies against false teaching. Now any teaching or interpretation can be offered with hardly a cough in response.
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