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Author Topic: Western Rite Orthodox...  (Read 13328 times) Average Rating: 0
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ByzantineSerb
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« on: January 26, 2005, 10:07:48 PM »

Ok,

   Before I posted this, I did a "OC" search to see if any lists existed on this topic, but sadly, none existed.

   I have been thinking that if I do convert to Orthodoxy, I would like to eventually join a Western Rite parish (though I'll probably be baptised by the Greeks or Serbs, both Orthodox none-the-less.)

   I am aware that many of the canonical Orthodox churches accept or tolerate Western Rites; what churches might not tolerate this small (but slightly growing) group of "Western Orthodox"?


God bless.
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« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2005, 10:10:55 PM »

I don't know if any wouldn't "tolerate" them-- they're all in communion with them, of course. But I believe in the US the only jurisdiction with active Western Rite parishes is the Antiochian Archdiocese. And ROCOR, maybe... I think?

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« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2005, 10:31:46 PM »

I have read that there is a Western Rite ROCOR monestery in (I think?) Rhode Island.  Other then that, the only WR I know of is with the Antiochians.  The York Forum has a person or two associated with WR. I also know of a Blog by a WR deacon.


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« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2005, 10:34:55 PM »

Ebor,

  I have a question for you, as I believe you to be a traditional Anglican, yes?

  Now, I don't know if you've looked over the liturgy of St. Gregory the Great (the liturgy that has obviously taken some revisions when adapted to Orthodoxy): here is the main one I am getting my source from:

http://www.orthodoxmission-ny.org/page.php?pageid=911db6a365007f327203dae41e47c56a

  I don't see many differences between a traditional Anglican Mass andthis Western Orthodox Mass? If you have time, what differences do you see?

God bless.
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« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2005, 10:57:06 PM »

I will look it over and get back to you, if that's alright.

I can tell you right off that I know that setting of the Kyrie.

Ebor
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« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2005, 01:27:45 AM »

I am aware that many of the canonical Orthodox churches accept or tolerate Western Rites; what churches might not tolerate this small (but slightly growing) group of "Western Orthodox"?

"Tolerate" would be the right word in this case, sadly...there was a Greek bishop in the NW US (of blessed memory now, iirc) who sent out instructions to his priests that they were not to concelebrate w/WR priests if the opportunity arose.  The general feeling I get from the OCA (judging from comments like Fr. Alexander Schmemman's) is that, while it's not technically wrong to do this, it may be...unwise.  After all, the thought goes, with all the other hurdles we Orthodox in America have to deal with, why "complicate" matters further by "fragmenting" ourselves according to rite?

I find the first view to be abominable, the second to be an underestimation of most Orthodox Christians' ability to be flexible.  To wall oneself off from canonically ordained fellow-priests is a serious affront to the unity of the Church, and to discourage or speak poorly of the WR because some would be uncomfortable makes it seem as though it were some insurmountable obstacle for Orthodox to overcome.

I personally think we're all capable of better.

As for the masses, there are two: the Gregorian adaptation and the adaptation of the 1928 BCP (known in WRO as the Rite of St. Tikhon).  The ROST is incredibly similar to the present day traditional Episcopal service -- though Ebor will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong (and that is as it should be!  Grin).

(Edited to correct manner of referring to a priest)
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« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2005, 01:33:36 AM »

Quote
As for the masses, there are two: the Gregorian adaptation and the adaptation of the 1928 BCP (known in WRO as the Rite of St. Tikhon).  The ROST is incredibly similar to the present day traditional Episcopal service -- though Ebor will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong (and that is as it should be!  ).

I believe that the Rite of St. Tikhon is closer to the 1928 Book of Common Prayer and was based upon it, not on the 1979 BCP's traditional "Rite 1" liturgy.

http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/1928/BCP_1928.htm

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« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2005, 12:48:59 PM »

I usally visit www.antiochian.org or www.westernorthodox.com, they now have a Mission nearby, also we have a additional Coptic Orthodox Church, Archangel Raphael & St. Mina, www.lacopts.org.

I'm forgetting Sts. Constantine & Helen, www.stsconstantineandhelen.org    .

My semi-geezer brain is spinning.

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« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2005, 01:35:48 PM »



I believe that the Rite of St. Tikhon is closer to the 1928 Book of Common Prayer and was based upon it, not on the 1979 BCP's traditional "Rite 1" liturgy.

http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/1928/BCP_1928.htm

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Yes, the Rite of St. Tikhon is based on the 1928 BCP, not on Rite 1. It is also based on the Anglican Missal, which itself was based on the 1928 BCP, with additions/modifications from the Tridentine Roman Missal. Thus, you will find differences between St. Tikhon and 1928 such as the position of the Gloria in excelsis. There are also additions from the missal such as the Orate, fratres and the salutation before the Sursum corda that are not in 1928. Some of these differences/additions also made it into Rite 1, but that is coincidental. There are also some elements in St. Tikhon which were included/excluded to make it Orthodox, e.g., the strengthening of the epiklesis and no filioque.
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« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2005, 05:44:14 PM »

The Rite of St. Gregory as done on the site linked is a Pre-V2 mass all in English. (I found that at the bottom of the page. Cheesy )

The "Kyrie" is familiar because it's been used in Episcopalian churchs too. (I'd say that we use good music where ever we find it, but I'm afraid someone would accuse us of "Song rustlin' Pardner." Grin ) Much of the service is still familiar to me though in a somewhat trimmed form. For example in  one form of the Confession Anglicans, in my experience, say:

I confess to God Almighty, in the presence of all the Saints, that I have sinned exceedingly in thought, word and deed, by my fault, by my own fault, by my own most grievous fault.

We don't mention St. Mary the Virgin, the angels and so forth as much. They are spoken of in other places such as at the conclusion of the Prayers of the People for instance. We do make the triple crossing (forehead, lips and heart) at the start of the Gospel reading.

It is St. Tikhon's Rite that is drawn from Anglican sources as has been pointed out.

If you'd like more analysis, I'll be glad to oblige.

Ebor
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« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2005, 06:30:11 PM »

The Rite of St. Gregory as done on the site linked is a Pre-V2 mass all in English. (I found that at the bottom of the page. Cheesy )

This statement should be qualified. As with the Rite of St. Tikhon, the Rite of St. Gregory underwent some modifications to make it compatible with Orthodoxy. These were:

  • Removal of references to "merits of saints"
  • No filioque in the Creed
  • The insertion of the epiklesis from the Byzantine liturgy into the Roman Canon
  • The addition of the prayer "I believe O Lord, and I confess" (also from the Byzantine liturgy) prior to Communion
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« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2005, 04:58:24 PM »

Ok, so the Liturgy of St. Tikhon is more similar to the Anglican liturgy (with Orthodox revisions). I'm assuming then that the Liturgy of St. Gregory is based on the Roman Catholic pre-Vatican II Mass; where can I find information about that?
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« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2005, 06:12:57 PM »

There is some info at the following link, start with Chapter I, give the article a chance to explain even though its RC-ish.

The Liturgy/Mass of the Western Rite

http://www.maternalheart.com/cabrol/cabrol_preface.htm

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« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2005, 01:48:25 PM »

Cool! Grin

Being a former Epsicopalian myself, I always did prefer Rite 1 to Rite 2 (which IMHO I hope no one makes an Orthodox Liturgy out of. Its too flowers and bunnies for my taste Roll Eyes). In such western parishes, do they have an Iconostas, or simply a communion rail and perhaps a rood screen, like in old Anglican and Episcopal Cathedrals, or hold on to the Iconostas of their traditional bretheren? Do they have a procession towards the alter? Is the choir in the balcony, or on the side of the alter? Do they use Traditional Orthodox Vestments or those of the Anglo-Catholic tradition? Just curious. Smiley

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« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2005, 01:50:09 PM »



This statement should be qualified. As with the Rite of St. Tikhon, the Rite of St. Gregory underwent some modifications to make it compatible with Orthodoxy. These were:

  • Removal of references to "merits of saints"
  • No filioque in the Creed
  • The insertion of the epiklesis from the Byzantine liturgy into the Roman Canon
  • The addition of the prayer "I believe O Lord, and I confess" (also from the Byzantine liturgy) prior to Communion

Thank you for those points, James.  Smiley 

Ebor
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« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2005, 01:59:39 PM »

Cool! Grin

Being a former Epsicopalian myself, I always did prefer Rite 1 to Rite 2 (which IMHO I hope no one makes an Orthodox Liturgy out of. Its too flowers and bunnies for my taste Roll Eyes). In such western parishes, do they have an Iconostas, or simply a communion rail and perhaps a rood screen, like in old Anglican and Episcopal Cathedrals, or hold on to the Iconostas of their traditional bretheren? Do they have a procession towards the alter? Is the choir in the balcony, or on the side of the alter? Do they use Traditional Orthodox Vestments or those of the Anglo-Catholic tradition? Just curious. Smiley


My experience with WR is not large, but from what I've seen and read the churches are "western" in arrangements but with icons as well. (I think that some of the WR people would say that they are "traditional" too. But western tradtional. So that the clergy are wearing Traditional Vestments but not Byzantine ones:) )

 I suspect that the choir goes where it will fit.  I've seen Episcopal churches with them in balconies, transepts and in the choir area i.e. before the altar abut behind a rail or screen depending on the building. 

I'm trying to find some on-line pictures, but I have to go out for a while.  So maybe later.

Ebor
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« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2005, 07:17:06 PM »

This statement should be qualified. As with the Rite of St. Tikhon, the Rite of St. Gregory underwent some modifications to make it compatible with Orthodoxy. These were:

  • Removal of references to "merits of saints"
  • No filioque in the Creed
  • The insertion of the epiklesis from the Byzantine liturgy into the Roman Canon
  • The addition of the prayer "I believe O Lord, and I confess" (also from the Byzantine liturgy) prior to Communion

Yes, that's true for the Masses. However, the Evensong service out of St. Dunstan's Plainchant Psalter--an excellent rendition of the Benedictine Rule--has the prayer to the Father which implores His mercy "through the merits of Jesus Christ out Lord, who with Thee and the Holy Ghost, etc."

Just a little side note!
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« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2005, 08:11:10 PM »

From the Western Rite churches with websites, I haven't seen any iconostasis; That would be inappropriate for a traditional Western setting (don't take that the wrong way, as iconostases [sp?] are extremely valuable).

From the pictures I've viewed, those parishes use altar railings. They are very simple, probably due to the small economic abilities of the parishes.

Here's an example: http://whittier.stmichael.org/parish/building.html


http://www.westernorthodox.com/stmark/images/reredos.jpg

God bless.
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« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2005, 09:17:21 PM »

Hm..........looks almost like thei nside fo a small Anglican parish alright. Alter rails, huh? Are they functional? Do the Western riters kneel while they recieve the Body and Blood? Nothing against that, just curious.

Also, I dont see a table of oblation.  How is communion done?  It is right there on the later without a great entrance with a alonger epiclesis?  Enquiring minds want to know!

Ian Lazarus :grommit:

PS: Any more pictures of a Western Orthodox Church, especially durring liturgy, would be appreciated.
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« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2005, 10:49:51 PM »

I am not fully aware of what most Orthodox terms are, as I am not Orthodox (not yet anyhow). But is the table of oblation a podium with an icon on it? Sorry...
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« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2005, 12:00:17 AM »

The table of oblation, in a traditional Orthodox church, is a small table, usually on the left corner (stage right) of the alter area behind the iconostas where the elements (bread, wine and water) are prepared and are brougt durring the great entrance in a procession to the alter proper.

I hope you come home soon brother, if I am not being presumptuous. Grin

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« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2005, 11:35:54 PM »

Alter rails, huh?  Are they functional?  Do the Western riters kneel while they recieve the Body and Blood?  Nothing against that, just curious.

Yes, they do, at least at St. Peter's here in Fort Worth.

Quote
Also, I dont see a table of oblation.  How is communion done?  It is right there on the later without a great entrance with a alonger epiclesis?  Enquiring minds want to know!

There's no Great Entrance, as there's no doors through which to enter!  It's all just done on the central altar.
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« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2005, 04:12:01 PM »



Yes, that's true for the Masses. However, the Evensong service out of St. Dunstan's Plainchant Psalter--an excellent rendition of the Benedictine Rule--has the prayer to the Father which implores His mercy "through the merits of Jesus Christ out Lord, who with Thee and the Holy Ghost, etc."

Just a little side note!

Of course there is no problem with saying "the merits of Jesus Christ" in an Orthodox prayer. References to the merits of saints is another matter, however, and such references have been removed.
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« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2005, 04:23:54 PM »

In our Western Rite mission we have no altar rail, as we are renting an upper room from a Methodist church. We have two large icons of Our Lord and Our Lady on stands between the altar and the congregation and many other icons on the walls. Communicants choose to stand or kneel. The priest stands in front of the altar with the Blessed Sacrament, flanked by two servers holding a cloth, and the communicants approach one by one to make their communion (or receive a blessing). Communion is administered by intinction, i.e., the priest dips the host in the chalice and then places it on the tongue of the communicant.

Our previous home was the chapel of an Eastern Rite Orthodox parish, so at that time we had an iconostasis.
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« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2005, 10:50:30 PM »

I'm new to the board.... Hi.



   I'm from St. Benedict of Nursia in Wichita Falls, TX.   We take communion at the altar railing, first the Host, then the Blood.  The Blood is carried by the deacon.  The exception is at Easter, we form the big line and the elements remain stationary.   We have a rood screen, the choir sits behind it with the rest of us- a matter of lack of space.  I know at St. Peter's they have a choir loft- and a nice parish and building, but no rood screen, so maybe that is just a matter of taste.  We don't have the big processions, but once again, that is a matter of space.  I think they are going to pay off our temporary building before they start construction on a new one.
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« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2005, 10:59:29 PM »

Oh, and there are a couple of WR Antiochian parish in the Australian and New Zealand:
http://www.the-way.org.au/
http://www.antiochian.org.nz/parishes/ashley/
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« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2005, 11:15:52 PM »

Welcome to the forum Landon!  Cheesy

On a side note: I would like to go to a Western Orthodox church someday, I wish there was one around here....  :-

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« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2005, 01:53:33 AM »

  Just recently I was thinking, "One of the WR parishes needs to make a video of our services and post it on the internet so others can see it."
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« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2005, 07:08:08 AM »

Welcome to the board, Landon.

I commune at St. Barbara's in Ft. Worth but visit St. Peter's every once in a while for an Evensong.

Good to have you here!

Pedro
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« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2005, 01:40:19 AM »

Quote
Just recently I was thinking, "One of the WR parishes needs to make a video of our services and post it on the internet so others can see it."

I think that is a spiffy idea Landon!  Afro Better yet, have it professionally filmed and sell it on dvd, like the Catholic Anglican Use has done:

http://www.atonementonline.com/dvd/index.php

I'd buy that for sure!

In Christ,
Aaron
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« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2005, 04:30:32 PM »

I'm curious to find out what the fruits of this discussion will be. I haven't found any more information about this group in French or English.
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« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2005, 05:17:34 PM »

Cizinec,

This Church uses the Rtie of St. Germain and has been under the MP, ROCOR, and Romanian Patriarchate succesively.  The RP released them and they have been searching for a Patriarchate to associate with since then.  St. John Maximovitch worked witht hem extensively I understand.  They do not have much of a web presence.

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« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2005, 02:32:26 PM »

What type of bread do the western-rite parishes use (hosts or prosphora or?)for the Liturgy?

Michael
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« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2005, 08:05:28 PM »

  We use bread that is... I can't think of the word... it isn't flat.   But it is so thin and flattend that it looks like wafers.  And we have blessed bread too.
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« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2005, 08:10:14 PM »

Would that be unleavened bread? Obviously the RC use the unleavened bread to be as acuracy for The Last Supper, but the Western Rite has few Episcopal traditions, but I didn't the Episcipal Church uses flat bread.
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« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2005, 08:14:19 PM »

  Yes!  Afro   The bread we use for communion in the WR  is not unleavened, but it does look like it.  The blessed bread is just a loaf cut into squares.
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« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2005, 11:50:12 PM »

All of the Episcopal churches I have ever been to have used unleavened bread/wafers.

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« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2005, 08:05:34 PM »

All of the Episcopal churches I have ever been to have used unleavened bread/wafers.

In Christ,
Aaron

Episcopal churches use wafers or pita type bread or leavened bread, I've even heard of using oaten bread for the Feast of St. Andrew (Scotland, you know.)  It depends on the kind of service, how many people, the season, do people in the parish or altar guild bake it and so forth.

I remember one time many years go when someone had accidentally (and didn't notice it) gotten onion pita bread, as I recall.  It was...surprising along with the wine.

Just to add another note, years ago and maybe still today, one question was "Port or Sherry" and I don't mean at tea time, but in the chalice.  Different parishes, different availability.  I haven't seen a Sherry-Parish in a long time, though

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« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2005, 01:01:01 PM »

In such western parishes, do they have an Iconostas, or simply a communion rail and perhaps a rood screen, like in old Anglican and Episcopal Cathedrals, or hold on to the Iconostas of their traditional bretheren?  Do they have a procession towards the alter?  Is the choir in the balcony, or on the side of the alter? Do they use Traditional Orthodox Vestments or those of the Anglo-Catholic tradition?  Just curious. Smiley

Dear Ian Lazarus,

There are those parishes of the western rite which will have a choir screen/Rood screen.  This is the western version of what developed as the iconostasis in the east.  The panels of the Rood Screen often bear images of the Saints, and you will still see these in mediaeval churches.  All Saints', North Street in York had one installed in the last century.  I must, therefore, respectfully disagree with ByzantineSerb's comment that iconostases would not be appropriate in a Western-rite Orthodox church.  Rood Screens may go be a different name from iconostases, and they may be in a different style, but they both have the same origins and both serve the same purpose and so iconostases, whether called iconostases or Rood Screens, are definitely a part of the western tradition, and are certainly not inappropriate in a church that uses the western rite.

There will be a procession to the Altar, as this is the western Tradition, as you will, no doubt, recall from your Anglican days.

I am confused by your use of the term traditional Orthodox vestments.  If, by that, you mean Eastern vestments, then the answer is no.  They use Western vestements, which, of course, are just as Orthodox in origin as Eastern vestments.  We must remember that, before the schism, the West followed its own rites and used its own vestments, just as the East did.  Western rite Orthodoxy is not a new phenomenon, but rather, a restoration.

The link that ByzantineSerb has kindly provided to the modified version of the liturgy of S. Gregory is that liturgy in its continental Roman form, which, as has already been pointed out, is the Tridentine Mass of Rome, (with Orthodox modifications).  There were a number of variations of this liturgy, and the one that was prevalent in the British Isles was the rite of Sarum.  It was this that the Anglican Book of Common Prayer was based on in its versions of 1549, 1551 and 1662, and is also the version that the proposed revision of 1927/1928 was based on (although this most recent proposed revision was never authorised for use).  This Sarum version is perhaps closer to pre-schism western Orthodoxy than the Tridentine one, certainly in terms of the vestments used (there were no fiddleback chasubles for a start!).  It is the Sarum version (with some modifications) that is in use in ROCOR and a version may be found here:

http://www.orthodoxresurgence.co.uk/Petroc/sarum.htm

Also, unlike the Tridentine version of the Rite of S. Gregory, the Sarum version does have an equivalent to the Great Entrance, in the offertor procession.  The Sub Deacon and Clerk mix the chalice on one of the side altars during the Gradual, and at the offertory, there is a procession to this altar, led by the cross, lights and incense, where the Clerk collects the oblations in the offertory veil, and the procession returns to the high altar.

As a matter of interest, it may be worth mentioning that, unlike the Tridentine rite, the Sarum rite incorporated the blessing and distribution of bread immediately after the Mass, which is another similarity to the Eastern Rites.  I think that by adopting Sarum as their expression of the western rite, ROCOR has made the right choice.

I hope that this is of some help.
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« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2005, 03:47:15 PM »

You know the more I think about this bread issue the more I am starting to think pita bread is the way to go. It just makes too much sense given the ethnic millieu of the day - then and now.
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« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2005, 01:33:05 AM »

Does anybody know if there is now, or if there is likely to be soon, a western rite parish or monastery in Great Britain?

Thank you.
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« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2005, 09:14:40 AM »

  Well, they start when a group of people ask their bishop/Church to allow them to start one.   Grin  Maybe you know a group of people that might make that move?
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« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2005, 09:22:04 AM »

Does anybody know if there is now, or if there is likely to be soon, a western rite parish or monastery in Great Britain?

Thank you.

Michael,

I had a look for you and can't find any (I'm in Britain also). If there are any, they're likely to be Antiochian, though. Maybe you should try asking them? They have a web site here:

http://www.antiochian-orthodox.co.uk

I'd certainly very much doubt that there's a western rite monastery here, though. I only actually know of three Orthodox monasteries in the country, two Russian ones in the south and one Romanian one in Gatten, Shropshire.

James
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« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2005, 12:23:04 PM »

Would that be unleavened bread? Obviously the RC use the unleavened bread to be as acuracy for The Last Supper,
Well the Gospel uses the word Artos, leavened bread, rather than the Greek word for unleavened bread. Also there is no evidence that unleavened bread was ever used in the Liturgy of the early Church and in fact the only mention made of unleavened bread being used in the Liturgy occurs during the 11th century in the West. In fact there are many reasons to believed that the West used leavened bread in the beginning. Particularly the Lorrha Stowe Missal in which the Host is divided up into many pieces to form a cross. I know that you can do this with unleavened wafers but the sheer number of pieces argues that it most like way a large leavened loaf that was used.

Also keep in mind that in the West they did originally have Prosphora or Singing-Bread which also argues that the bread for communion was prepared in a similar way to the East.
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« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2005, 12:30:28 PM »

Also I just found this quote helpful with regards to the Lorrha Stowe Missal
Quote
The Bread

The bread used is leavened bread, as was once universal at the time the Church celebrated its unity and joy in the Resurrection of the dead and the life in the age to come. (Although Warren claims that unleavened bread was used, it would be impossible to perform the Immersion, Confraction, and Holy Communion as specified by the rubrics specifically given in the original text. Unleavened bread would either turn into mush that could not be broken into Particles and arranged on the Paten; or, if not able to absorb, it would not absorb the Precious Blood, shatter in the Confraction, not be cut with a knife, and need to be chewed with the molars.) Although the Host has been selected prior to the Mass, and blessed bread not used for Communion is divided into small pieces on a tray on the Credenza, the Host is not broken until the Fracture, nor divided into Particles until the Confraction; otherwise it could not be whole at the beginning of the Mass and broken in two at the Fracture.
It was from this page which has the Missal http://celticchristianity.org/library/stowe.html
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« Reply #45 on: April 22, 2005, 12:48:16 PM »

There are those parishes of the western rite which will have a choir screen/Rood screen. This is the western version of what developed as the iconostasis in the east.

No, it isn't. The closest analogue to the iconostasis in the West is the altar rail, and the latter is somewhat later in its origin. The purpose of the rood screen was primarily to close off the choir for office services. The vague physical similarity is deceiving.
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« Reply #46 on: April 22, 2005, 04:02:33 PM »

Really?

Hmmm.  This seems out of accordance with things that I have come across in the past, but it makes some sense.

I shall try to look a bit further into this.
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« Reply #47 on: April 22, 2005, 06:01:04 PM »

This is a good article on the history of rood-screens and how they were used.
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« Reply #48 on: April 23, 2005, 03:40:35 PM »

Ooooooo.

Thank you for that, Beayf.

This certainly is different from what I have been accustomed to, and very informative as well.  It appears that I ought to humbly bow and acknowledge my inaccurate statement earlier in the thread.  I ought to have known that the Roman Liturgy website was the place too look.
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« Reply #49 on: April 23, 2005, 04:16:15 PM »

Why is the Russian styled Churches that have no Byzantine style but influence not contain a Christ Pantocrator on top of their cielings?
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« Reply #50 on: April 28, 2005, 10:26:39 AM »

Why is the Russian styled Churches that have no Byzantine style but influence not contain a Christ Pantocrator on top of their cielings?
I am not sure what you mean? I think most Russian churches have the Icon of the Pantocrator underneath the center onion dome.

Has anyone here been to a Western Rite parish that uses only Latin in the Mass? Do you know if the have 'Byzantine' portions of the liturgy online so I can see what they are in Latin?
I recently found the set of Trisagion prayers in Latin online.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/ivanmoody/liturgicaltexts.lat.trisagion.htm
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« Reply #51 on: June 12, 2005, 04:44:45 AM »

Cool! Grin

Being a former Epsicopalian myself, I always did prefer Rite 1 to Rite 2 (which IMHO I hope no one makes an Orthodox Liturgy out of. ‰ts too flowers and bunnies for my taste Roll Eyes). ‰n such western parishes, do they have an Iconostas, or simply a communion rail and perhaps a rood screen, like in old Anglican and Episcopal Cathedrals, or hold on to the Iconostas of their traditional bretheren? „o they have a procession towards the alter? ‰s the choir in the balcony, or on the side of the alter? Do they use Traditional Orthodox Vestments or those of the Anglo-Catholic tradition? Šust curious. Smiley

Ian Lazarus ºgrommit:

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There is a Western Rite Monastery in Tasmania, you could check for info or email any questions, they have answered a few of mine:

try  http://www.rocor.org.au/



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« Reply #52 on: June 30, 2005, 07:35:22 PM »

I don't see many differences between a traditional Anglican Mass and this Western Orthodox Mass?

Given the fact that the Rite of St. Gregory is a reverent translation of the Roman Mass, it must have been similar to Thomas Cranmer's first translation of the liturgy which was faithful to the Roman Missal (then it was replaced an ambiguous service that contained some changes and the protestantization came gradualy).

I find this rite similar to the 1965 missal:
http://www.coreyzelinski.8m.com/1965_Mass/

(as it contains Pius XII's reforms and the whole service is translated to English).

The fact that these rites have been linked somehow to Anglicanism deeply disturbs me.
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« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2005, 01:42:52 AM »

Thomas Cranmer's First Pray Book of 1549 was not a translation, nor was it taken from the Roman Missal.

The first Prayer Book was a simplification of the Mass in the Sarum Missal, many of the prayers and rubrics having been omited, and many of the prayers having been penned by Cranmer himself.  The Sarum Missal was the version of the Western Liturgy predominantly in use in Britain immediately prior to the unpleasantness of the 16th century.  Previously, there had been others, such as the York Missal, Hereford, Bangor &c.  There had never been one single western rite, but there were local variants of it, until the Council of Trent of the late 16th cent., which formulated and imposed on the RC Church the Tridentine Mass, which, I believe, is where the Antiochian Liturgy of S. Gregory the Great comes from.  ROCOR uses Sarum.  More here.

Having said that, your point stands as to why there are similarties.
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« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2005, 03:37:35 PM »

Oh yes thanks for the correction, it was the Salisbury Misal or Sarum Rite, considered to be a rescension of the Latin Rite which had already been romanized at that time.

The problem with the restoration of "pre-schism" liturgical traditions is that it can lead to liturgical anthropologism and speculation as the French Orthodox did with the Galican Rite or the Milan-Synod does with several "restored" rites that they now offer.

It's no coincidence that British Traditional Catholics have fought for the restoration of the Tridentine Rite and as far as I know, they celebrate the Sarum Rite only in very special ocasions, but they do not want to restore it.

The Antiochian Vicariate has also avoided this speculation by approving living rites of the west.

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