Poll

Star-Spangled Virgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?

(RC opinion only): Blessed
0 (0%)
(RC opinion only): Blasphemous
4 (10.8%)
(RC opinion only): Meh
2 (5.4%)
(EO opinion only): Blessed
1 (2.7%)
(EO opinion only): Blasphemous
22 (59.5%)
(EO opinion only): Meh
8 (21.6%)

Total Members Voted: 37

Author Topic: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?  (Read 2580 times)

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Offline xariskai

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Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« on: July 04, 2013, 02:39:09 PM »


Quote from: Religion News
"I did a double-take when I received the latest edition of The Tablet, the newspaper of the Catholic Diocese of Brooklyn, and saw this image taking up most of the front page. It is the Blessed Mother wrapped in the American flag, and a poster of the photo has been sent to all parishes in the diocese.

The ad is part of the Fortnight for Freedom campaign by the bishops, which ends Thursday, July Fourth, with a closing Mass at the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, celebrated by Cardinal Donald Wuerl. (A number of other dioceses around the country will have similar events.)

- Read further at:  http://davidgibson.religionnews.com/2013/07/03/star-spangled-virgin-blessed-or-blasphemous/

(I'll vote later...)
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 02:45:36 PM by xariskai »

Offline Arachne

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2013, 02:44:11 PM »
Tasteless. Pathetic. Desperate. None of those are really synonyms for 'meh'.
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2013, 02:54:51 PM »
Tasteless. Pathetic. Desperate. None of those are really synonyms for 'meh'.

I think this about sums up my opinion as well...
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Offline Papist

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2013, 03:01:47 PM »
Stupid.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2013, 03:04:54 PM »
It's obviously somewhat blasphemous but then again many things are. No need to start the outrage.

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2013, 03:20:00 PM »
Absolutely disgraceful- how dare she use the American Flag as a piece of apparel!
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Offline OrthoNoob

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2013, 03:27:00 PM »
I didn't vote because I'm Orthodox, but:

That's outrageous. Not really much better than that evangelical crap with Christ on the Cross wrapped in Old Glory.
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2013, 05:12:49 PM »
The Virgin Mary is breaking the Flag Code

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Offline Gamliel

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2013, 05:17:07 PM »
Weird.

Offline Nicene

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2013, 07:16:43 PM »
Shouldn't she be wearing an Isreali flag? Suppose they didn;t have a flag back then.
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2013, 07:49:55 PM »
is she hiding a freedom-bomb under those glorious drapes?

Offline xariskai

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2013, 09:37:20 PM »
I didn't vote because I'm Orthodox, but:

That's outrageous. Not really much better than that evangelical crap with Christ on the Cross wrapped in Old Glory.
If you didn't notice there is a section for EO only votes.

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2013, 09:54:07 PM »
At least she has stars...
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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2013, 10:09:40 PM »

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2013, 10:53:35 PM »
Since there's no OO voting option, I'll just comment: out of the three choices, I say "Meh". 

Usually, if you want to indicate the protection of the Mother of God over people or places, she is depicted extending her veil or mantle over them: even RC art has that tradition.  That would've been better than this.  This looks like America is protecting her (I promise she doesn't need it).  Or she's outside, it's cold, and no one had a coat, sweater, shawl, etc. to offer her, and so some wag took a flag off a flagpole and handed it to her saying "Meh".

And that horrid background... 

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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2013, 10:55:40 PM »
It's a Protestant-influenced image.
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Offline Maria

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2013, 11:44:53 PM »


Quote from: Religion News
"I did a double-take when I received the latest edition of The Tablet, the newspaper of the Catholic Diocese of Brooklyn, and saw this image taking up most of the front page. It is the Blessed Mother wrapped in the American flag, and a poster of the photo has been sent to all parishes in the diocese.

The ad is part of the Fortnight for Freedom campaign by the bishops, which ends Thursday, July Fourth, with a closing Mass at the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, celebrated by Cardinal Donald Wuerl. (A number of other dioceses around the country will have similar events.)

- Read further at:  http://davidgibson.religionnews.com/2013/07/03/star-spangled-virgin-blessed-or-blasphemous/

(I'll vote later...)

So Unorthodox!

Who is the model for this poster?

Lord have mercy.
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2013, 11:52:04 PM »
It's linked to the Fortnight for Freedom which I think ended today. If I saw this lady I'd only expect a drone from her.

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2013, 11:53:20 PM »

Who is the model for this poster?


To me, it looks like the Columbia Pictures mascot from the 1950s.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 11:54:11 PM by LBK »
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2013, 11:59:47 PM »
At least she has stars...
That makes it good in LBK's book!

 ;)
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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2013, 12:01:07 AM »
Oh, here we go...!  :P
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2013, 12:04:36 AM »
At least she has stars...
That makes it good in LBK's book!

 ;)

...too many stars. 

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Offline LBK

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2013, 12:07:39 AM »
At least she has stars...
That makes it good in LBK's book!

 ;)

...too many stars. 



.... and in the wrong places ....  :P ;)
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Offline OrthoNoob

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2013, 01:03:04 AM »
I didn't vote because I'm Orthodox, but:

That's outrageous. Not really much better than that evangelical crap with Christ on the Cross wrapped in Old Glory.
If you didn't notice there is a section for EO only votes.

Oh, I didn't notice. Thanks.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2013, 02:09:02 AM »
Pathetic wasn't an option.

I watched the 700 Club talk about how this was a God founded country.  I can take foundation myths OK, but it got to be a bit much: I thought about how I don't like the stories just like the atheists, but unlike them I can't deny that they have been part of this country since its founding.  The Americans think very highly of themselves.

I recall a very bizarre show on EWTN.  A woman was claiming that Washington saw an apparition of the Blessed Virgin.  Sort of made him a "crypto-Catholic" post-mortem.
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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2013, 02:19:17 AM »

I recall a very bizarre show on EWTN.  A woman was claiming that Washington saw an apparition of the Blessed Virgin.  Sort of made him a "crypto-Catholic" post-mortem.

According to these artists (and their patrons ... :P ), Washington was indeed assumed bodily into heaven.  ;)





« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 02:21:46 AM by LBK »
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Offline mike

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2013, 08:58:41 AM »

Offline LBK

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2013, 10:06:40 AM »




Proof that there is such a thing as American ethnophyletism .....  :P :P :P
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2013, 10:23:47 AM »

Proof that there is such a thing as American ethnophyletism .....  :P :P :P

Of course there is. It has its own scriptures, using no less the same base text as the OSB. :P


RE: the OP, the U.S. has a long history of wrapping religion in a flag. You can spend an entire afternoon finding examples on the Internet. Here's one from an impromptu shrine in New Orleans following the 2005 flooding from the levee break:



Religion and patriotism appeal to the same psychological core, so it's easy to see how to see they get mixed. Heck, the Battle Hymn of the Republic -- repugnant as it is -- is a staple in evangelical churches for the Sunday before Independence Day.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 10:31:25 AM by Agabus »
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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2013, 10:28:35 AM »

Proof that there is such a thing as American ethnophyletism .....  :P :P :P

Of course there is. It has its own scriptures, using no less the same base text as the OSB. :P




... I meant "among the Orthodox" ....  :P ;)
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2013, 09:30:52 PM »
If there ever would arise a "Christian Taliban" it would come from my country. Pathetic.
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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2013, 10:03:03 PM »
Meh.

Don't forgot all those "Orthodox" nationalist images/icons of Mary.

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2013, 10:06:12 PM »
Meh.

Don't forgot all those "Orthodox" nationalist images/icons of Mary.

Any examples (other than those already posted in the "Schlock icons" thread)? I could do with some additions to my schlock file.  ;D
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2013, 10:49:54 PM »
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 10:56:40 PM by augustin717 »

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2013, 11:04:15 PM »


That's a nice one. Does it include Moldova, I can't tell.
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Offline Dpaula

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2013, 12:08:55 AM »
This is actually beautiful and in my humble but biased opinion, it has nothing in common with the one presented in the OP.

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Offline augustin717

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2013, 12:13:00 AM »
the flag huh? plus if one wants to goo all LBK-the map. really. and the verses.

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2013, 02:13:26 AM »
the flag huh? plus if one wants to goo all LBK-the map. really. and the verses.

Any chance of a translation of the Romanian verse, augustin?  :)

This is actually beautiful and in my humble but biased opinion, it has nothing in common with the one presented in the OP.


Dpaula, the "beauty" of this image is what makes it all the more subversive and horrible. The hijacking of iconography to serve nationalist or political sentiment is an abuse and debasement.

Note the Romanian tricolor forming the yarn on the spindle which the Mother of God holds in her hand. There are many icons of the Annunciation which show her holding a spindle on which red or purple yarn is wound. This is not only a reference from Holy Tradition, but it is a symbol of the Incarnation, that God took flesh from her. This hymn is one which expresses this fundamental teaching:

Pure Virgin, the flesh of Emmanuel was formed within your womb as a robe of royal crimson is spun from scarlet silk. We proclaim you to be truly the Mother of our God.

Iconography and hymnography go hand-in-hand. One expresses the teachings of the Church in words, the other in pictures and color. Therefore, what is the justification for taking a well-known iconographic motif, and one which finds expression in the hymns of the Church, and turning it into a nationalist symbol?

There is little difference between what is expressed in the image in the OP, and this Romanian image. Both sides of the same coin.
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Offline Dpaula

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2013, 07:46:09 AM »
The verse is part of a poem that belongs to one of the greatest writers of Romania (if not THE greatest) and it's one of the long list of poems about Romania. Does not belong on a Church's wall, that I don't question.

But the icon itself seems completely familiar and it's well made (I mean, I like it), and it does not resemble the one in the OP at all. Besides the contour of Romania and the small flag, I don't see it as horrible as I see the one in OP. I just like it, sorry. :)
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Offline LBK

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2013, 08:20:08 AM »
The verse is part of a poem that belongs to one of the greatest writers of Romania (if not THE greatest) and it's one of the long list of poems about Romania. Does not belong on a Church's wall, that I don't question.

But the icon itself seems completely familiar and it's well made (I mean, I like it), and it does not resemble the one in the OP at all. Besides the contour of Romania and the small flag, I don't see it as horrible as I see the one in OP. I just like it, sorry. :)

The imagery of the Mother of God enthroned with her Child is indeed proper and uncontroversial. It is shameful that this venerable image has been used to serve and promote a sociopolitical cause, and, worse, is on the wall of a church. Both the iconographer and whoever commissioned and approved the painting of this image are guilty of a gross violation of iconographic practice and canon.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 08:20:32 AM by LBK »
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Offline mike

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2013, 08:32:39 AM »
But the icon itself seems completely familiar and it's well made (I mean, I like it), and it does not resemble the one in the OP at all. Besides the contour of Romania and the small flag, I don't see it as horrible as I see the one in OP.

Why? Because the first one is American and the second one - Romanian?

Offline Dpaula

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2013, 09:12:26 AM »
No! Because the first one does not look Orthodox, and the second one does. Because the first one is just a poster distributed by mail and the second one is painted on the wall of an Orthodoc church.There's nothing Orthodox in that first image. I would have never guessed that is Holy Theotokos. It looks like Miss USA. With the second one I had no problem recognizing Her.

P.S. I am proud US citizen. I took an oath when I received my citizenshitp. This is not related.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 09:14:22 AM by Dpaula »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2013, 09:16:29 AM »
No! Because the first one does not look Orthodox, and the second one does. Because the first one is just a poster distributed by mail and the second one is painted on the wall of an Orthodoc church.There's nothing Orthodox in that first image. I would have never guessed that is Holy Theotokos. It looks like Miss USA. With the second one I had no problem recognizing Her.

P.S. I am proud US citizen. I took an oath when I received my citiThis isdzenshitp. This is not related.

The "Orthodox" appearance of the Romanian mural makes it all the more unacceptable. It is very easy for an unsuspecting Orthodox believer to be taken in by the nationalism of the content, and its presence in a church.
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2013, 09:50:13 AM »
No! Because the first one does not look Orthodox, and the second one does. Because the first one is just a poster distributed by mail and the second one is painted on the wall of an Orthodoc church.There's nothing Orthodox in that first image. I would have never guessed that is Holy Theotokos. It looks like Miss USA. With the second one I had no problem recognizing Her.

P.S. I am proud US citizen. I took an oath when I received my citiThis isdzenshitp. This is not related.

The "Orthodox" appearance of the Romanian mural makes it all the more unacceptable. It is very easy for an unsuspecting Orthodox believer to be taken in by the nationalism of the content, and its presence in a church.

I used to be scandalized by the tricolor bookmark ribbons in most Romanian liturgical books. And the Greek flags hanging around Greek churches, even on Mount Athos. Then I saw that the Ethiopians sometimes have their tricolor around icons/liturgical items. The OO Arameans and Assyrians also mix their religious and national symbols. The Byzantine double-headed eagle is on the rug all our bishops stand on (the orlets/aetos). In the litanies we pray for "our pious nation" (to eusebes hemon genos), the political leaders (monarch, president, mayors, etc.), the army; at the Great Entrance the "heroes who died for our freedom and the faith of our ancestors" are commemorated. Surely, the line between a legitimate liturgical patriotism and ethnophyletism is easy to cross, but there must be one somewhere.    

Quote from: Psalm 86
I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there.

And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her.

The LORD shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there.

Quote from: Psalm 73
Lift up thy feet unto the perpetual desolations; even all that the enemy hath done wickedly in the sanctuary.

Thine enemies roar in the midst of thy congregations; they set up their ensigns for signs.

They said in their hearts, Let us destroy them together: they have burned up all the synagogues of God in the land.

We see not our signs: there is no more any prophet: neither is there among us any that knoweth how long.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 10:01:01 AM by Romaios »

Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2013, 10:33:13 AM »
I used to be scandalized by the tricolor bookmark ribbons in most Romanian liturgical books. And the Greek flags hanging around Greek churches, even on Mount Athos. Then I saw that the Ethiopians sometimes have their tricolor around icons/liturgical items. The OO Arameans and Assyrians also mix their religious and national symbols. The Byzantine double-headed eagle is on the rug all our bishops stand on (the orlets/aetos). In the litanies we pray for "our pious nation" (to eusebes hemon genos), the political leaders (monarch, president, mayors, etc.), the army; at the Great Entrance the "heroes who died for our freedom and the faith of our ancestors" are commemorated. Surely, the line between a legitimate liturgical patriotism and ethnophyletism is easy to cross, but there must be one somewhere.    

I think the key is in the word "pious". We pray for pious kings, our pious nation, etc. What is appropriate in Church is the Christianization of our nation, not the nationalism-isation of our Christianity.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2013, 10:57:38 AM »
The OO Arameans and Assyrians also mix their religious and national symbols.

Though I've seen this in Youtube videos, I've never actually seen it in a church.  Maybe the parishioners just didn't care about patriotism?  :P
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2013, 11:26:17 AM »
The OO Arameans and Assyrians also mix their religious and national symbols.

Though I've seen this in Youtube videos, I've never actually seen it in a church.  Maybe the parishioners just didn't care about patriotism?  :P

Sorry if that wasn't accurate - I based my affirmation on youtube videos, since I haven't had the chance of seeing an OO church in real life (so far).

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2013, 01:25:08 PM »
You don't know what you're missing.  ;)
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Offline LBK

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2013, 09:39:47 PM »
I used to be scandalized by the tricolor bookmark ribbons in most Romanian liturgical books. And the Greek flags hanging around Greek churches, even on Mount Athos. Then I saw that the Ethiopians sometimes have their tricolor around icons/liturgical items. The OO Arameans and Assyrians also mix their religious and national symbols. The Byzantine double-headed eagle is on the rug all our bishops stand on (the orlets/aetos). In the litanies we pray for "our pious nation" (to eusebes hemon genos), the political leaders (monarch, president, mayors, etc.), the army; at the Great Entrance the "heroes who died for our freedom and the faith of our ancestors" are commemorated. Surely, the line between a legitimate liturgical patriotism and ethnophyletism is easy to cross, but there must be one somewhere.    

I think the key is in the word "pious". We pray for pious kings, our pious nation, etc. What is appropriate in Church is the Christianization of our nation, not the nationalism-isation of our Christianity.

Precisely. There is no problem with bookmarks in the national colors, nor in praying liturgically and privately for the nation and its rulers. They are simply decorations and embellishments.

What is offensive about the tricolor forming the yarn on the Mother of God's spindle is that a national symbol is used in place of a motif which represents the Incarnation, God's taking of flesh and blood from the Virgin to become Man. In effect, the blood of Christ, derived from His Mother, becomes the national flag.

Is this travesty so difficult for some here to comprehend?
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Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #49 on: July 10, 2013, 03:50:22 PM »
"bleck" may be the word I'm looking for here.  :'(
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Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2013, 03:58:45 PM »
These images would be funny if they weren't so sad. Horrible.


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Offline Scotty

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Re: Star-Spangled Virrgin: Blessed, Blasphemous, or Meh?
« Reply #51 on: July 15, 2013, 01:13:14 PM »
I don't think the Church in the U.S. has ever given much thought to Rome's condemnations of Americanism in the late 1800s.