Author Topic: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles  (Read 3699 times)

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Offline drewmeister2

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Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« on: January 26, 2005, 08:45:13 PM »
Hi all,

I recently remembered the miracle of Lourdes (I believe this is where the following was said).  Mary said to the girl, Seuberou(or however you spell it), that, "I am the Immaculate Conception."  To me, that proves Orthodoxy wrong, and Catholicism right, because Mary explicitly says she is the Immaculate Conception, which is something the Orthodox reject.  Any thoughts?  Thanks! 
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2005, 08:47:00 PM »
No thoughts come to mind
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline TomS

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2005, 09:00:29 PM »
Yeah. Is this from a Brothers Grimm fable?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2005, 09:01:27 PM by TomS »

Offline drewmeister2

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2005, 09:02:30 PM »
Are you asking if the miracle is false?  I highly doubt it is, seeing how many miracles have occured there. 
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2005, 09:04:57 PM »
So what about all the miracles that happen in Hindu temples? Does that prove anything? I suggest you read "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future" by Fr Seraphim Rose to see how real such demonic activity can be. I am not saying that Lourdes is demonic but I doubt it is true since Mary is reported as saying something that is completely against Orthodox doctrine.  The doctrine comes first, then the apparitions--apparitions are like icing on the cake. You have to bake the cake first before God sends miracles which are meant to confirm faith not usually to establish it (otherwise it is not faith!)

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Offline TomS

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2005, 09:06:00 PM »
Quote
Mary said to the girl, Seuberou(or however you spell it)...

Was this girl related to the guy who started that car company?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2005, 09:08:11 PM by TomS »

Offline drewmeister2

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2005, 09:11:18 PM »
So what about all the miracles that happen in Hindu temples? Does that prove anything? I suggest you read "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future" by Fr Seraphim Rose to see how real such demonic activity can be. I am not saying that Lourdes is demonic but I doubt it is true since Mary is reported as saying something that is completely against Orthodox doctrine. The doctrine comes first, then the apparitions--apparitions are like icing on the cake. You have to bake the cake first before God sends miracles which are meant to confirm faith not usually to establish it (otherwise it is not faith!)

Anastasios

I highly doubt it isn't true.  How do you explain handicap people being touched by the water, and all of the sudden walking?  Nothing less than a miracle.  If she did say something against Orthodox doctrine, maybe that is because Orthodoxy isn't the true faith?  Just a thought. 

I do see what you are saying though that miracles can happen in other faiths. 
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Offline TomS

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2005, 09:17:05 PM »
If she did say something against Orthodox doctrine, maybe that is because Orthodoxy isn't the true faith?

Okay. Now you are just talkin' CRAZY! But I guess we should expect confusion from one who follows a church that has been corrupted by the evil one for centuries.

Offline drewmeister2

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2005, 09:20:42 PM »
Tom,

I would appreciate more charity.  I am simply asking a question.  No, the Catholic Church hasn't been corrupted completely by the devil.  Each church has had its problems somewhere along the line.  Orthodoxy may or may have not have had problems in necessarily theologies, but each church has had bad leaders at times.  There are many good aspects of the Catholic Church as well. 

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Offline TomS

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2005, 09:23:34 PM »
Then please do not make statements such as "..maybe that is because Orthodoxy isn't the true faith?"

On THIS board Othodoxy is the True Faith. End of discussion.



Offline drewmeister2

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2005, 09:26:45 PM »
Then please do not make statements such as "..maybe that is because Orthodoxy isn't the true faith?"

On THIS board Othodoxy is the True Faith. End of discussion.




I am not trying to cut down Orthodoxy.  I am simply saying how I am viewing things.  I am simply asking, if Mary did really say, I am the Immaculate Conception, then why does Orthodoxy say the Immaculate Conception didn't happen? 
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Offline Marjorie

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2005, 09:48:02 PM »
It's notable that the Lourdes apparition when she said that occurred on March 25th-- which on the Western calendar is the feast of the conception of Christ, not Mary.

Not "I was immaculately conceived," but "I am the Immaculate Conception" ("Que soy era immaculada concepciou.")

Just something to think about.

Marjorie
« Last Edit: January 26, 2005, 09:49:01 PM by Marjorie »
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2005, 09:50:50 PM »

TROLL ALERT!
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline drewmeister2

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2005, 10:03:21 PM »
It's notable that the Lourdes apparition when she said that occurred on March 25th-- which on the Western calendar is the feast of the conception of Christ, not Mary.

Not "I was immaculately conceived," but "I am the Immaculate Conception" ("Que soy era immaculada concepciou.")

Just something to think about.

Marjorie

What is the difference between the two?  Thanks! 
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Offline Elisha

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2005, 10:03:35 PM »
Then please do not make statements such as "..maybe that is because Orthodoxy isn't the true faith?"

On THIS board Othodoxy is the True Faith. End of discussion.




Well said.

Offline Marjorie

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2005, 10:06:57 PM »


What is the difference between the two? Thanks!

Since Mary said "I am the Immaculate Conception" on the feast day of Christ's conception, I think there is reason to believe that she was saying that the immaculate (literally: pure and spotless) conception was actually herself-- in herself and of herself-- in the incarnation of Christ in her and through her and in her flesh. I believe that the statement referred to Christ's conception (although most Orthodox Christians would say that the Holy Spirit has always been with Mary in a special way, even from her own conception.) It makes sense with what we know of Mary-- when has she not pointed us to Christ? I am aware that the doctrine of the IC was declared before the apparition, but maybe this was Our Lady's idea of wit. :) "Not me, but him through me," is the message she was giving us, in my humble opinion.

Marjorie
« Last Edit: January 26, 2005, 10:08:32 PM by Marjorie »
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Offline amnesiac99

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2005, 10:25:50 PM »
I think all such miracles should be viewed with a great deal of suspicion and skepticism, which is probably why Roman Catholics themselves are not obligated to believe or accept them. In medieval times, apparitions of our Lord and the Theotokos were seen as signs of demonic activity, not as miracles. They believed that the Enemy was using religious imagery (as St. Paul says, appearing as an angel of light) to lead the faithful astray. This is how I personally view Lourdes and other such "miracles."

As for whether or not healings occured there, I have no comment. If someone was healed, they ought to thank God and use their new health to His glory.
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Offline drewmeister2

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2005, 10:34:09 PM »
I agree that we should have some suspicion about miracles, but I do know that there are people who have been cured at Lourdes.  I have been there myself.  While I didn't see anyone cured, while spending time there, I remember seeing things, and hearing stories, of people who have been cured.  I also agree, they should thank God if they are cured. 
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Offline Tallitot

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2005, 10:51:45 PM »
This link contains some writings giving an Orthodox viewpoint of some Marian apparitions.
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx

My question is why the Theotokes would spend her time hovering over dumps like Lourdes or La Sallette and conversing w/ adolescent sheep hands  rather then appearing to a large group of people, i.e. the General Assembly og the UN for instance.




« Last Edit: January 26, 2005, 11:02:39 PM by Crucifer »
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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2005, 10:59:08 PM »
Dear Drewmeister,

As someone else mentioned, even the RCC doesn't require anyone to believe in apparitions or their messages.  You can be a faithful Catholic and believe it's all bogus.  Even from their perspective, then, basing the truthfulness of a doctrine on a purported vision is wrong.  The IC was declared in 1854, while the Lourdes visions occurred in 1858: one might argue that the vision supports the doctrine, but the reason one believes it in RCism is because it was infallibly defined by Pius IX, not because Our Lady said so to an uneducated peasant girl. 

Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Hindus, etc. all have "miracles".  Do they come from God?  I don't know.  From the devil?  I don't know.  In the end, I think there is wisdom in simply ignoring them, at least when it comes to matters of faith.  The faith is evaluated on its own terms, not because some girl seeing visions, or some monk with the stigmata, or an icon weeping myrrh indicates to an individual that it might be right.

Marjorie,

I didn't know the "IC declaration" was made at Lourdes on 25 March.  In light of this, your hypothesis about the true meaning of the Virgin's words is interesting.     
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Offline Marjorie

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2005, 11:15:05 PM »
La Salette and others like that seem to me obviously demonic. But Lourdes has the same silence and humility and beauty which I associate with the Theotokos.

Mor, very good point about the fact that the RCC does not require belief in the apparitions. And I can't take credit for the hypothesis about the IC proclamation; I read it on some other Orthodox sites. (When I read it it was a relief because I have always believed in the Lourdes apparition and believe that Our Lady of Lourdes was there for my father when he was in the hospital two years ago, but that's another story.)

Marjorie
« Last Edit: January 26, 2005, 11:19:57 PM by Marjorie »
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2005, 11:41:37 PM »

TROLL ALERT!

You know that was totally unnecessary. I have been talking to this fellow privately for a week and he is quite serious about becoming Orthodox. Please don't be rude--he was just asking a question. You (and others) should be aware that It was partly because of responses similar to yours that I delayed deciding on Orthodoxy.

Anastasios
« Last Edit: January 27, 2005, 12:07:46 AM by Anastasios »
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Offline TomS

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2005, 11:42:29 PM »
Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Hindus, etc. all have "miracles". Do they come from God? I don't know. From the devil? I don't know. In the end, I think there is wisdom in simply ignoring them, at least when it comes to matters of faith. The faith is evaluated on its own terms, not because some girl seeing visions, or some monk with the stigmata, or an icon weeping myrrh indicates to an individual that it might be right.

Well said, brother!

Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2005, 12:16:32 AM »
My question is why the Theotokes would spend her time hovering over dumps like Lourdes or La Sallette and conversing w/ adolescent sheep hands rather then appearing to a large group of people, i.e. the General Assembly og the UN for instance.

Why not adolescent sheep hands?  God often chooses what the world would think of as insignificant people to work through.  As Paul says, "God chose what is weak to shame the strong."
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Offline Marjorie

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2005, 12:18:57 AM »


Why not adolescent sheep hands? God often chooses what the world would think of as insignificant people to work through. As Paul says, "God chose what is weak to shame the strong."

Exactly; David was a shepherd and Jesus a carpenter... both humble and insignificant.

Marjorie
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Offline Ian Lazarus

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2005, 12:24:02 AM »
Dear Drew(meister)

If the apparition were true ,and the words spoken. people can use them to their own benifits and bend them to their own interpretation. Could it not be that the interpretations of the Pope of Rome and the Roman church is incorrect? An example of this, and a prime one in the Orthodox world is the interpretation of the 16th chapter of St. Matthew when Christ said to St. Peter "Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build my chruch". In the view of the Holy Fathers, and inded of the early church, the verse pointed to Christ being the Rock, and that he was responding to Peter's profession of faith "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" in the previous verse. It was not until bad interpretation by frankly egotistical pontiffs and such documents as the False Decretals of Pseudo Isidore and the forged Donation of Constantine, that the whole "Successor of Peter is the Head of the Church" began to come about, if memeory serves me correctly.

Simply proposing a thought. No offense intended to any.


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« Last Edit: January 27, 2005, 12:25:19 AM by Ian Lazarus »
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Offline Νεκτάριος

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2005, 09:52:21 AM »
The pagan "gods" of Rome and Greece all worked miracles.  The amount of supernatural happening and miracles that occur in far Eastern religions even to this day is high.  Consider the Hindu's that Anastasios and others have already mentioned.  Benny Hinn and his crew of protestant/charismatics all work miracles that truly cure real people. 

In scripture even pagans that attuned to the demonic (whether they realize it is demonic or not) have worked wonders.  For example many of the wonders and miracles of Moses before Pharoh were replicated by Pharoh's magicians.  Thus simply looking for miracles and signs is a very dangerous route to embark on and a sure path to perdition.

We also know from scripture that the demons will appear as angels of lights in order to decieve even the elect.  From the ascetic fathers (many of them wrote long before the Schism) we know that demons do appear as the Theotokos, saints or Christ himself.  From that it is very plausible that a demon could have appeared as the Mother of God to Bernadette in Lourdes in order to affirm a heresy and cause people to not convert to the true faith.  Thus unless you have a lifetime of ascetical experience and the gift of discernment visions are very dubious.

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2005, 11:20:46 AM »


You know that was totally unnecessary.  I have been talking to this fellow privately for a week and he is quite serious about becoming Orthodox.  Please don't be rude--he was just asking a question. You (and others) should be aware that It was partly because of responses similar to yours that I delayed deciding on Orthodoxy.

Anastasios

Well, excuse me for not being privy to your private communications. Perhaps I mis-read the rules of the Free-for-all board, especially the part about polemics.
When a non-Orthodox posts polemical questions espousing at the same time that those questions are not of that nature, I am alerted.
When a poster complains about 'charity' but does not offer the same, I am alerted.
When a poster ignores in part honest responses and insists on his/her original supposition(re-asserts them, in fact), I am alerted.

Yes, I've spent too much time on the CA boards lately and it's colored my views.

So, rare as it is for me - apologies
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Offline bripat22

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2005, 05:43:44 PM »
who i

TROLL ALERT!

 Who is more the troll??  I think it is one who makes such a comment as the Roman Catholic Church being "corrupted by the Evil One"  That to me is more bigoted.
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Offline Matthew777

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2005, 05:48:47 PM »
I believe that Mary speaks to Catholics and Orthodox Christians as they understand her.
If she appeared to me, she'd probably say "I am Theotokos".
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Offline Matthew777

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2005, 05:51:39 PM »
This link contains some writings giving an Orthodox viewpoint of some Marian apparitions.
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx

My question is why the Theotokes would spend her time hovering over dumps like Lourdes or La Sallette and conversing w/ adolescent sheep hands rather then appearing to a large group of people, i.e. the General Assembly og the UN for instance.


Why would Jesus appear to a few meditaranian Jewish peasants instead of the kings of this world?
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2005, 05:54:11 PM »


Well, excuse me for not being privy to your private communications. Perhaps I mis-read the rules of the Free-for-all board, especially the part about polemics.
When a non-Orthodox posts polemical questions espousing at the same time that those questions are not of that nature, I am alerted.
When a poster complains about 'charity' but does not offer the same, I am alerted.
When a poster ignores in part honest responses and insists on his/her original supposition(re-asserts them, in fact), I am alerted.

Yes, I've spent too much time on the CA boards lately and it's colored my views.

So, rare as it is for me - apologies

I am not basing my rough response to you on my private communications but wished to bring them to light simply to shed some light.

Even if I had never had private communications, I would still not have let that comment slide. My reading of his questions and his subsequent debating showed that he was not being overly polemical. Some people proceed with discussion differently, playing a devil's advocate role. Other times, people need to repeat themselves multiple times and be told multiple times, tweaking the angle a tiny bit each time to cover all bases. That's what I saw with this fellow.

Obviously there are trolls on the board and when esteemed posters like you, David, and others have issued "don't feed the trolls" alerts I have said nothing and agreed with the warning. But we have to be careful not to go overboard. Just keep using the post report feature as that is the best way to get a moderator to look over the post.

I am sorry if I seemed overly harsh to you, embarassed or offended you, etc. Let's just forget about it. :)

Anastasios
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Offline Matthew777

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2005, 05:58:05 PM »
What do you mean by trolls anyway? It sounds like a cop-out directed to anyone with a dissenting opinion.
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2005, 07:11:24 PM »

Obviously there are trolls on the board and when esteemed posters like you, David, and others have issued "don't feed the trolls" alerts I have said nothing and agreed with the warning. But we have to be careful not to go overboard.  Just keep using the post report feature as that is the best way to get a moderator to look over the post.

I am sorry if I seemed overly harsh to you, embarassed or offended you, etc. Let's just forget about it. :)

Anastasios

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Offline drewmeister2

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2005, 07:20:11 PM »
Im sorry if I created problems, I didn't mean to!

Thank you for everyone who replied.  I have a question, though.  From the site posted on this topic area earlier, http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx, I found something.  Why does it say, quote, "The Lady announced her name as "I am the Immaculate Conception," thereby confirming the recently defined dogma," on the site, under number 3?  Does that mean this statement counteracts everything everyone else has said here so far?  Please help!  Thanks!   ;)
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2005, 07:26:59 PM »
What do you mean by trolls anyway? It sounds like a cop-out directed to anyone with a dissenting opinion.

Trolls are people who intentionally come to websites of people who hold opposite opinions and stir up trouble.

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Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism and may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2005, 07:27:29 PM »
Im sorry if I created problems, I didn't mean to!

Thank you for everyone who replied. I have a question, though. From the site posted on this topic area earlier, http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/marian_apparitions.aspx, I found something. Why does it say, quote, "The Lady announced her name as "I am the Immaculate Conception," thereby confirming the recently defined dogma," on the site, under number 3? Does that mean this statement counteracts everything everyone else has said here so far? Please help! Thanks! ;)

I'm not sure what you mean...that is what happened at Lourdes.
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Offline drewmeister2

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2005, 07:32:33 PM »
Sorry, I didnt explain myself. 

It said that by her saying she was the IC, it confirms the recently defined dogma.  Would that invalidate what others have said about this particular miracle? 
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Offline TomS

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2005, 07:49:35 PM »
drewmeister2,

We Orthodox do not accept the Roman Catholic teaching of the Immaculate Conception.

Why do you keep asking us about this stuff?? Go to a Catholic Board and ask THEM!
« Last Edit: January 27, 2005, 08:01:05 PM by TomS »

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2005, 07:55:26 PM »
Quote
It said that by her saying she was the IC, it confirms the recently defined dogma. Would that invalidate what others have said about this particular miracle?

How can something that not even Roman Catholics are obligated to believe be a source of confirmation for a controversial new dogma? If some girl from the Assyrian Church of the East saw a vision of Mary, claiming she said, "I am Christotokos," should we then accept the Nestorian heresy? If Roman Catholics wish to believe in the Immaculate Conception, that is their business, but they should not rely upon obscure and unverifiable visions to buttress their dogma.
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2005, 07:55:53 PM »
I think the site was trying to give you the RC perspective there. It would have been better stated as:"The Lady reportedly announced her name as 'I am the Immaculate Conception,' thereby confirming in the minds of Roman Catholics the recently defined dogma".
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Offline drewmeister2

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2005, 08:09:46 PM »
Oh, ok, thank you, Paradosis.  That answered my question   :)
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Offline Marjorie

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Re: Question on Orthodoxy and Catholic Miracles
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2005, 01:33:22 AM »
Sorry, I didnt explain myself.

It said that by her saying she was the IC, it confirms the recently defined dogma. Would that invalidate what others have said about this particular miracle?

That's one opinion of what she said. There's no one Orthodox opinion on the meaning of her words. The view on that site is that of the Roman Catholics, and many Orthodox agree with that view of the vision (which, in their minds, often invalidates the vision.) She didn't say "and by saying this I am confirming the recently defined dogma." I gave my interpretation of her words already-- I'm not saying that all Orthodox Christians agree that's what she meant.

Marjorie
« Last Edit: January 28, 2005, 01:34:59 AM by Marjorie »
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