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Author Topic: "My God, My God, Why Have you Forsaken Me?"  (Read 2464 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 02, 2013, 12:50:43 PM »

I was reading the Gospel last night and I came upon this famous passage where Christ says "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" and it got me wondering, how would we as Orthodox Christians understand this passage and how does our understanding differ from how say an Evangelical Protestant would understand it?

The reason I ask is because I remember being a child growing up in a Protestant Church, and saying something to the extent of "Jesus doubted/suffered because He asked God why He forsook Him" and then being sternly condemned by Pastors for some reason, and then them telling me that Jesus was merely quoting Psalm 22 and didn't really doubt/suffer. I always thought this was weird.

I know this relates to the whole Nestorian Christology thing that some folks here accuse Protestantism of, but, admittedly, I know very little about Christology other than Christ being fully God and fully man.
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« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2013, 01:13:21 PM »

What's weird about it? Jesus was always mentioning prophecies about His coming, the way He would die and His resurrection.

At the cross, he mentioned the one single Psalm that describes the event that was happening before everybody's eyes. People give advice at their death beds, they say goodbye, they declare their love, sometimes they even give consolation to those of us staying behind in this world of troubles. God was just giving consolation, remembering people that the Cross too had been foreseen, everything was still under God's control.
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« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2013, 01:17:29 PM »

Fwiw...

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For Christ also likewise, when it was possible for him to abide in His own honour and deity, not only so far emptied Himself as to take the form of a slave, (Phil. 2:7) but also endured the cross, despising the shame, (Heb. 12:2) that he might by His own sufferings destroy sin, and by death slay death.

-- St. Gregory the Theologian, Oration 12.4

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We have sinned, we have done amiss, and have dealt wickedly, (Dan. 9:5) for we have forgotten Thy commandments and walked after our own evil thought, (Is. 65:2) for we have behaved ourselves unworthily of the calling and gospel of Thy Christ, and of His holy sufferings and humiliation for us; we have become a reproach to Thy beloved, priest and people, we have erred together, we have all gone out of the way, we have together become unprofitable, there is none that doeth judgment and justice, no not one.

-- St. Gregory the Theologian, Oration 16.12
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« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2013, 02:00:44 PM »

In the hymns we mention that the sun hid its rays, and the earth quaked, creation feeling the pain of its Creator.  In quoting the Psalm the Creator was feeling the pain of His creation.
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« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2013, 06:09:38 PM »

Did it ever occur to anyone to try interpreting it along the lines of what it actually says?
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« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2013, 06:31:44 PM »

I was reading the Gospel last night and I came upon this famous passage where Christ says "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" and it got me wondering, how would we as Orthodox Christians understand this passage and how does our understanding differ from how say an Evangelical Protestant would understand it?

The reason I ask is because I remember being a child growing up in a Protestant Church, and saying something to the extent of "Jesus doubted/suffered because He asked God why He forsook Him" and then being sternly condemned by Pastors for some reason, and then them telling me that Jesus was merely quoting Psalm 22 and didn't really doubt/suffer. I always thought this was weird.

I know this relates to the whole Nestorian Christology thing that some folks here accuse Protestantism of, but, admittedly, I know very little about Christology other than Christ being fully God and fully man.

The advice you were given sounds like the heresy of docetism, probably unwittingly so.  Read about it and you'll see what I mean.  Of course Christ suffered unspeakable agony.  How otherwise could he redeem our existence, even death? 
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« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2013, 06:49:08 PM »

Did it ever occur to anyone to try interpreting it along the lines of what it actually says?

Well that's a novel idea, what exactly does is mean for someone to be forsaken?
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« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2013, 06:51:23 PM »

Did it ever occur to anyone to try interpreting it along the lines of what it actually says?

Well that's a novel idea, what exactly does is mean for someone to be forsaken?
To be abandoned.   
"A God-forsaken place," such as a remote desert
"Do not forsake me, O my darlin"   An old cowboy song pleading for his love not to leave him. 
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« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2013, 06:55:30 PM »

Did it ever occur to anyone to try interpreting it along the lines of what it actually says?

Is there any way to see "forsaken" as "abandoned" without separating the Father from the Son? I imagine this is part of why people don't.
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« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2013, 07:02:04 PM »

Did it ever occur to anyone to try interpreting it along the lines of what it actually says?

Is there any way to see "forsaken" as "abandoned" without separating the Father from the Son? I imagine this is part of why people don't.

Maybe someone else knows more but to me it is as mysterious as the Trinity.  I do know it speaks if the most unbearable suffering imaginable. 
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« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2013, 09:26:20 PM »

What's weird about it? Jesus was always mentioning prophecies about His coming, the way He would die and His resurrection.

At the cross, he mentioned the one single Psalm that describes the event that was happening before everybody's eyes. People give advice at their death beds, they say goodbye, they declare their love, sometimes they even give consolation to those of us staying behind in this world of troubles. God was just giving consolation, remembering people that the Cross too had been foreseen, everything was still under God's control.

If He was just giving consolation, it's no more a prophecy than if I say "In two days, I shall scream 'I know you!' at some stranger, while I'm driving," and then proceed to do it.
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« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2013, 09:33:26 PM »

Forsake is not necessarily the same thing as separate.

I've read somewhere that Christ said that because God the Father really did forsake Christ in the narrow sense that He did not save Christ from the Cross.  He did not send angels down to rescue Him, but rather allowed Him to suffer.
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« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2013, 09:36:17 PM »

Forsake is not necessarily the same thing as separate.

I've read somewhere that Christ said that because God the Father really did forsake Christ in the narrow sense that He did not save Christ from the Cross.  He did not send angels down to rescue Him, but rather allowed Him to suffer.

That is a pretty obvious way to look at it that I hadn't considered. I'm around Reformed that equate "forsake" with "separate," which is probably why I made the equation as well.
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« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2013, 09:47:46 PM »

Forsake is not necessarily the same thing as separate.

I've read somewhere that Christ said that because God the Father really did forsake Christ in the narrow sense that He did not save Christ from the Cross.  He did not send angels down to rescue Him, but rather allowed Him to suffer.

This sounds very plausible, and it's along the lines of what i was thinking.

If you are on a cross, it's hard to argue that you aren't forsaken in some sense.

Although I'm sure that when he shouted it, it wasn't intended as a mere enlightening statement of fact.
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« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2013, 11:44:22 PM »

In the synagogue, the psalms used to be distributed for prayer among the worshippers. The person distributing the psalms would begin by reciting the first few words such as "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me," and the worshipper would continue reciting it inaudibly. In this case, had they continued reciting the psalm just as Christ intended, they would have recalled the inexplicable references to what was going on right before their eyes.

If we continue the psalm:

"Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce my hands and my feet.
All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me."
They divide my clothes among them
 and cast lots for my garment.
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« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2013, 07:17:13 AM »

Here is what St. John Chrysostom has to say on the subject in one of his homilies on the Gospel of Matthew, courtesy of New Advent:

"And for this reason, even after this He speaks, that they might learn that He was still alive, and that He Himself did this, and that they might become by this also more gentle, and He says,  Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?  that unto His last breath they might see that He honors His Father, and is no adversary of God. Wherefore also He uttered a certain cry from the prophet, even to His last hour bearing witness to the Old Testament, and not simply a cry from the prophet, but also in Hebrew, so as to be plain and intelligible to them, and by all things He shows how He is of one mind with Him that begot Him."
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« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2013, 07:19:08 AM »

And this meditation on the passage from ACROD helpfully treats this mystery and regards it as an evidence of Jesus' humanity, which did not curse God:

http://www.acrod.org/organizations/seminary/reflection/passion-mastroberte

Note its quotation of St. Ambrose's thinking on the matter.
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« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2013, 08:01:40 AM »

Because I can.
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« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2013, 08:28:49 AM »

This sentence was a signal given by Jesus to God the Father that now the supernatural incidents related to the crucifixion may start.

I guess this statement sounded a bit problematic to some Western Christians in the medieval period. The author of the Gospel of Barnabas included this sentence into his forged passion narrative to convince people that it was Judas Iscariot rather than Jesus who was crucified.  Grin
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« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2013, 08:37:17 AM »

This commentary from the Greek Church states that we should not look to it in terms of literal abandonment, but as an exemplification of the suffering of Christ, in which God was *silently* present.

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/suffering
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« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2013, 09:04:37 AM »

He's affirming that God is still under control even though everything seems to be out of track.

It seems odd for us because we don't know the Psalms by heart. Even today we have people who really memorize them and it seems that was more common in ancient times. Plus, the fact that this saying appears in Mark and Matthew the Gospels that were directed to a more Jewish audience, suggests that the authors knew it was clear for any common Jew of the time what was happening.

Even today, in Liturgy, entire hymns are pointed out with just their first words. I'm no specialist, but I suppose this tradition must come from those times, for even in the OT we have songs thrown here and there. In the context of the Church, it's beyond doubt that it is a conscious quotation of the Psalm prophecizing the crucifiction itself. The only thing that is my interpretation alone is that it is consoling.

What's weird about it? Jesus was always mentioning prophecies about His coming, the way He would die and His resurrection.

At the cross, he mentioned the one single Psalm that describes the event that was happening before everybody's eyes. People give advice at their death beds, they say goodbye, they declare their love, sometimes they even give consolation to those of us staying behind in this world of troubles. God was just giving consolation, remembering people that the Cross too had been foreseen, everything was still under God's control.

If He was just giving consolation, it's no more a prophecy than if I say "In two days, I shall scream 'I know you!' at some stranger, while I'm driving," and then proceed to do it.
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« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2013, 09:07:11 AM »

Did Jesus actually experience separation from God?
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« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2013, 09:17:09 AM »

Did Jesus actually experience separation from God?

No. Orthodox hymns consistently proclaim that He was never separated from His Father.
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« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2013, 09:39:41 AM »

Did Jesus actually experience separation from God?

No. Orthodox hymns consistently proclaim that He was never separated from His Father.

And if Jesus did not actually suffer or experience separation from God than how can he sympathise and be consider solidar with those who do, and with those who are in bad condition in life? If he did not assume and experienced our spiritual pains than why should we compare our suffering with His? The real suffering in life is spiritual not physical.

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« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2013, 10:00:03 AM »

Did Jesus actually experience separation from God?

No. Orthodox hymns consistently proclaim that He was never separated from His Father.

And if Jesus did not actually suffer or experience separation from God than how can he sympathise and be consider solidar with those who do, and with those who are in bad condition in life? If he did not assume and experienced our spiritual pains than why should we compare our suffering with His? The real suffering in life is spiritual not physical.



Our hymns and prayers express what the Church teaches. This is just one hymn which speaks of the mystery of the Son remaining with the Father, while lying dead and buried in the tomb:

All things above the world and all below the earth quaked with fear at Your death, as they saw You on the throne above and below in a tomb; for beyond understanding You appeared as one dead, You the source of life. (from the canon, matins of Holy Saturday)

And here is an icon which expresses the same teaching:


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« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2013, 10:06:29 AM »

Did Jesus actually experience separation from God?

No. Orthodox hymns consistently proclaim that He was never separated from His Father.

And if Jesus did not actually suffer or experience separation from God than how can he sympathise and be consider solidar with those who do, and with those who are in bad condition in life? If he did not assume and experienced our spiritual pains than why should we compare our suffering with His? The real suffering in life is spiritual not physical.



Our hymns and prayers express what the Church teaches. This is just one hymn which speaks of the mystery of the Son remaining with the Father, while lying dead and buried in the tomb:

All things above the world and all below the earth quaked with fear at Your death, as they saw You on the throne above and below in a tomb; for beyond understanding You appeared as one dead, You the source of life. (from the canon, matins of Holy Saturday)

And here is an icon which expresses the same teaching:




You didn't answer my questions, though.
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« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2013, 10:16:13 AM »

Did Jesus actually experience separation from God?

No. Orthodox hymns consistently proclaim that He was never separated from His Father.

And if Jesus did not actually suffer or experience separation from God than how can he sympathise and be consider solidar with those who do, and with those who are in bad condition in life? If he did not assume and experienced our spiritual pains than why should we compare our suffering with His? The real suffering in life is spiritual not physical.



Our hymns and prayers express what the Church teaches. This is just one hymn which speaks of the mystery of the Son remaining with the Father, while lying dead and buried in the tomb:

All things above the world and all below the earth quaked with fear at Your death, as they saw You on the throne above and below in a tomb; for beyond understanding You appeared as one dead, You the source of life. (from the canon, matins of Holy Saturday)

And here is an icon which expresses the same teaching:




You didn't answer my questions, though.

Can you explain how Christ, the giver of life, can die? Can you explain how He could be at once with His Father, and entombed below the ground? Can you explain how the infinite, indescribable, invisible God could take on human flesh and human nature, and live among men on earth? Or how bread and wine can become His body and blood?

There are some things, lovetzatziki, which are divine mysteries, far beyond what mere human minds can possibly comprehend or quantify. And, we, simply and humbly, have to accept that such things are so.

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« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2013, 10:30:36 AM »

Did Jesus actually experience separation from God?

No. Orthodox hymns consistently proclaim that He was never separated from His Father.

And if Jesus did not actually suffer or experience separation from God than how can he sympathise and be consider solidar with those who do, and with those who are in bad condition in life? If he did not assume and experienced our spiritual pains than why should we compare our suffering with His? The real suffering in life is spiritual not physical.



Our hymns and prayers express what the Church teaches. This is just one hymn which speaks of the mystery of the Son remaining with the Father, while lying dead and buried in the tomb:

All things above the world and all below the earth quaked with fear at Your death, as they saw You on the throne above and below in a tomb; for beyond understanding You appeared as one dead, You the source of life. (from the canon, matins of Holy Saturday)

And here is an icon which expresses the same teaching:




You didn't answer my questions, though.

Can you explain how Christ, the giver of life, can die? Can you explain how He could be at once with His Father, and entombed below the ground? Can you explain how the infinite, indescribable, invisible God could take on human flesh and human nature, and live among men on earth? Or how bread and wine can become His body and blood?

There are some things, lovetzatziki, which are divine mysteries, far beyond what mere human minds can possibly comprehend or quantify. And, we, simply and humbly, have to accept that such things are so.



The question I was asking was if Jesus really suffered.
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« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2013, 10:33:13 AM »

That's because he did not assume our spiritual pains, which are fruit of our sins. He assumed the natural pains and limitations of human nature - which does not include sin. Fallen human nature has sin, but not human nature in itself. We love Him as our Savior, for in Him all our pains and sufferings were destroyed.

This is very much related with what I said on the dating thread. I think it's very psychologically and even spiritually unhealthy all the talk about sympathizing with our flaws (the cause of our pains and sufferings) in the sense that we should accept them as part of human nature. They are not by all means. Human nature in its truly natural state is seen in Jesus Christ only, and, among the fallen, completely filled with Grace in the Theotokos only. With her we can sympathize in the full sense, for she suffered literally like us, out of her fallen human nature, although  she never actualized her fallen state, she never sinned. And we have thousands of saints who sinned like us and thus suffered agonies of real separation like us. We can sympathize with them as well.

Jesus suffered the physical pains of the Crucifiction, in His human nature, He did not want that so much pain would happen. But He never ever suffered the agony of despair. Quoting the Psalm on the Cross is a complement to what He said to Pilates: "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above."(Jo 19:11) . For us, and specially for His relatives and close friends, it surely seemed things were all out of control, that things had gone horribly wrong. But Jesus is always remembering people, even His tormentors that things were *not* out of control, that God was pretty much controlling everything, and that everything was going accord to plan. "Fear not" He is saying all the time, by different means.

Did Jesus actually experience separation from God?

No. Orthodox hymns consistently proclaim that He was never separated from His Father.

And if Jesus did not actually suffer or experience separation from God than how can he sympathise and be consider solidar with those who do, and with those who are in bad condition in life? If he did not assume and experienced our spiritual pains than why should we compare our suffering with His? The real suffering in life is spiritual not physical.


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« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2013, 10:53:34 AM »

That's because he did not assume our spiritual pains, which are fruit of our sins. He assumed the natural pains and limitations of human nature - which does not include sin. Fallen human nature has sin, but not human nature in itself. We love Him as our Savior, for in Him all our pains and sufferings were destroyed.

This is very much related with what I said on the dating thread. I think it's very psychologically and even spiritually unhealthy all the talk about sympathizing with our flaws (the cause of our pains and sufferings) in the sense that we should accept them as part of human nature. They are not by all means. Human nature in its truly natural state is seen in Jesus Christ only, and, among the fallen, completely filled with Grace in the Theotokos only. With her we can sympathize in the full sense, for she suffered literally like us, out of her fallen human nature, although  she never actualized her fallen state, she never sinned. And we have thousands of saints who sinned like us and thus suffered agonies of real separation like us. We can sympathize with them as well.

Jesus suffered the physical pains of the Crucifiction, in His human nature, He did not want that so much pain would happen. But He never ever suffered the agony of despair. Quoting the Psalm on the Cross is a complement to what He said to Pilates: "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above."(Jo 19:11) . For us, and specially for His relatives and close friends, it surely seemed things were all out of control, that things had gone horribly wrong. But Jesus is always remembering people, even His tormentors that things were *not* out of control, that God was pretty much controlling everything, and that everything was going accord to plan. "Fear not" He is saying all the time, by different means.

Did Jesus actually experience separation from God?

No. Orthodox hymns consistently proclaim that He was never separated from His Father.

And if Jesus did not actually suffer or experience separation from God than how can he sympathise and be consider solidar with those who do, and with those who are in bad condition in life? If he did not assume and experienced our spiritual pains than why should we compare our suffering with His? The real suffering in life is spiritual not physical.



He does not suffer with us when we suffer spiritual affliction ? Did he came only to be the Savior of the flesh? Didn't St Gregory the Great say "what is not assumed is not redeemed" ?  Doesn't that devalorise the Incarnation? To me it seems that suffering is a spiritual condition rather than carnal.

What comfort can we have than when we suffer spiritual pains?
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« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2013, 11:17:58 AM »

What's a spiritual pain??? Have you had one can you describe it?
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« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2013, 11:26:42 AM »

What's a spiritual pain??? Have you had one can you describe it?

An ukrainian should know Smiley.. pains of the soul.
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« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2013, 11:29:27 AM »

It's really difficult to describe it. It's agony over the *false* perception that God is missing in something. It happens "mildly" when you doubt and accutely when you're sure He is there but you dwell in the devil's lie that He has abandoned you. It happens when you believe the world has really gone off-track and there are things not under His control. Specially if you believe that *you* have gone off-track and not the whole world, that you have put yourself completely out of reach. It happens when you think of your sins apart from His infinite capacity to forgive, or when you get afraid that you love your sins more than God.

What's a spiritual pain??? Have you had one can you describe it?
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« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2013, 11:33:42 AM »

It's really difficult to describe it. It's agony over the *false* perception that God is missing in something. It happens "mildly" when you doubt and accutely when you're sure He is there but you dwell in the devil's lie that He has abandoned you. It happens when you believe the world has really gone off-track and there are things not under His control. Specially if you believe that *you* have gone off-track and not the whole world, that you have put yourself completely out of reach. It happens when you think of your sins apart of His infinite capacity to forgive, or when you get afraid that you love your sins more than God.

What's a spiritual pain??? Have you had one can you describe it?

Or out of nothing.
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« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2013, 11:43:50 AM »

lovetzatziki,

It's like heat and cold. When heat "enters" an oven to warm it, "cold" ceases to exist. There is no meaning in thinking or saying that "heat" has to enter "cold" in order to warm it.

Redemption (heat) is the healing of human nature (the oven) from spiritual pain (coldness).

The confort we have in spiritual pain is: "God is with us", precisely in the sense that we are the oven and in time He will warm our heart. We cannot and even should not desire that God suffer to feel conforted. Imagine that for another person: "I'm suffering here, but since he is also suffering over there, hey, it's ok!". If it's evil to wish consolation from someone else's pain, imagine that for God.

Jesus Christ suffered only in the *natural* limitations of human nature. And that is not only physical. We see how He feels psychological pain in anticipation of the Cross. That's because human nature does not wish pain or death. That is natural. Even perfect human nature, like in Jesus, feels that. But He did not suffer from pains caused by broken human nature, like doubting there is a God or that God is in control even in the worst situations. That lack of faith does not belong to human nature at all, it's an aberration and a spiritual disease, a kind of "coldness", that was extirpated by the union of our nature with God's.

There is absolutely no cold in heat.

That's because he did not assume our spiritual pains, which are fruit of our sins. He assumed the natural pains and limitations of human nature - which does not include sin. Fallen human nature has sin, but not human nature in itself. We love Him as our Savior, for in Him all our pains and sufferings were destroyed.

This is very much related with what I said on the dating thread. I think it's very psychologically and even spiritually unhealthy all the talk about sympathizing with our flaws (the cause of our pains and sufferings) in the sense that we should accept them as part of human nature. They are not by all means. Human nature in its truly natural state is seen in Jesus Christ only, and, among the fallen, completely filled with Grace in the Theotokos only. With her we can sympathize in the full sense, for she suffered literally like us, out of her fallen human nature, although  she never actualized her fallen state, she never sinned. And we have thousands of saints who sinned like us and thus suffered agonies of real separation like us. We can sympathize with them as well.

Jesus suffered the physical pains of the Crucifiction, in His human nature, He did not want that so much pain would happen. But He never ever suffered the agony of despair. Quoting the Psalm on the Cross is a complement to what He said to Pilates: "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above."(Jo 19:11) . For us, and specially for His relatives and close friends, it surely seemed things were all out of control, that things had gone horribly wrong. But Jesus is always remembering people, even His tormentors that things were *not* out of control, that God was pretty much controlling everything, and that everything was going accord to plan. "Fear not" He is saying all the time, by different means.

Did Jesus actually experience separation from God?

No. Orthodox hymns consistently proclaim that He was never separated from His Father.

And if Jesus did not actually suffer or experience separation from God than how can he sympathise and be consider solidar with those who do, and with those who are in bad condition in life? If he did not assume and experienced our spiritual pains than why should we compare our suffering with His? The real suffering in life is spiritual not physical.



He does not suffer with us when we suffer spiritual affliction ? Did he came only to be the Savior of the flesh? Didn't St Gregory the Great say "what is not assumed is not redeemed" ?  Doesn't that devalorise the Incarnation? To me it seems that suffering is a spiritual condition rather than carnal.

What comfort can we have than when we suffer spiritual pains?
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« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2013, 12:15:54 PM »

lovetzatziki,

It's like heat and cold. When heat "enters" an oven to warm it, "cold" ceases to exist. There is no meaning in thinking or saying that "heat" has to enter "cold" in order to warm it.

Redemption (heat) is the healing of human nature (the oven) from spiritual pain (coldness).

The confort we have in spiritual pain is: "God is with us", precisely in the sense that we are the oven and in time He will warm our heart. We cannot and even should not desire that God suffer to feel conforted. Imagine that for another person: "I'm suffering here, but since he is also suffering over there, hey, it's ok!". If it's evil to wish consolation from someone else's pain, imagine that for God.


Jesus Christ suffered only in the *natural* limitations of human nature. And that is not only physical. We see how He feels psychological pain in anticipation of the Cross. That's because human nature does not wish pain or death. That is natural. Even perfect human nature, like in Jesus, feels that. But He did not suffer from pains caused by broken human nature, like doubting there is a God or that God is in control even in the worst situations. That lack of faith does not belong to human nature at all, it's an aberration and a spiritual disease, a kind of "coldness", that was extirpated by the union of our nature with God's.

There is absolutely no cold in heat.

That's because he did not assume our spiritual pains, which are fruit of our sins. He assumed the natural pains and limitations of human nature - which does not include sin. Fallen human nature has sin, but not human nature in itself. We love Him as our Savior, for in Him all our pains and sufferings were destroyed.

This is very much related with what I said on the dating thread. I think it's very psychologically and even spiritually unhealthy all the talk about sympathizing with our flaws (the cause of our pains and sufferings) in the sense that we should accept them as part of human nature. They are not by all means. Human nature in its truly natural state is seen in Jesus Christ only, and, among the fallen, completely filled with Grace in the Theotokos only. With her we can sympathize in the full sense, for she suffered literally like us, out of her fallen human nature, although  she never actualized her fallen state, she never sinned. And we have thousands of saints who sinned like us and thus suffered agonies of real separation like us. We can sympathize with them as well.

Jesus suffered the physical pains of the Crucifiction, in His human nature, He did not want that so much pain would happen. But He never ever suffered the agony of despair. Quoting the Psalm on the Cross is a complement to what He said to Pilates: "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above."(Jo 19:11) . For us, and specially for His relatives and close friends, it surely seemed things were all out of control, that things had gone horribly wrong. But Jesus is always remembering people, even His tormentors that things were *not* out of control, that God was pretty much controlling everything, and that everything was going accord to plan. "Fear not" He is saying all the time, by different means.

Did Jesus actually experience separation from God?

No. Orthodox hymns consistently proclaim that He was never separated from His Father.

And if Jesus did not actually suffer or experience separation from God than how can he sympathise and be consider solidar with those who do, and with those who are in bad condition in life? If he did not assume and experienced our spiritual pains than why should we compare our suffering with His? The real suffering in life is spiritual not physical.



He does not suffer with us when we suffer spiritual affliction ? Did he came only to be the Savior of the flesh? Didn't St Gregory the Great say "what is not assumed is not redeemed" ?  Doesn't that devalorise the Incarnation? To me it seems that suffering is a spiritual condition rather than carnal.

What comfort can we have than when we suffer spiritual pains?


God is with us but not in an solidarian way. When you are in great pain sometimes your only confort is that of someone who is solidar with you and your pain and has actually been through that pain. It seems to me that you are saying the Christ did not go till there.

If Christ did not suffer the feelings of doubt, that God is in control, the feelings of sin and all the feelings of every spiritual agony and pain, at least in substance, than we don't have a God that was solidar with us. We don't have a God who shared in everything with us, a God who recapitulated the whole of humanity in his Incarnation, and that joined the whole humanity in his Incarnation, esspecially the one that was needed to, who was down, distressed, agonised, heart-broken, etc.. He did not thus pervade this whole human conditions with his Incarnation.. He did not infused his divine grace and his divine personhood in this human conditions, hypostatically. He did not join with his divinity this humanity. He did not fill all the holes of humanity in his divinity. What was the value of His incarnation than and of his death if it does not result into healing and virtue and inspire virtue and healing? Was it a form of self-aggrandisement, of narcissism, of showing off ? How could we find spiritual comfort and inspiration in this Christ if he was not solidar with us? What is it to be looked upon at him? The history of religions is full with vain gods and man gods... but seemingly none seem to be so severe in punishment as Christ. Was Christ just one of them?

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« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2013, 01:05:50 PM »

So when I see a persons foot being eating away by some microscopic creature that God brought into existance, and I doubt, that's a spiritual pain?
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« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2013, 01:47:34 PM »

So what exactly is the problem that Evangelical Protestants have with this passage? AFAIK, and from my own personal experience, this is a controversial passage for them, and most of them seem to not think that He really suffered or was questioning His Father.
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« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2013, 01:51:47 PM »

So what exactly is the problem that Evangelical Protestants have with this passage? AFAIK, and from my own personal experience, this is a controversial passage for them, and most of them seem to not think that He really suffered or was questioning His Father.

Evangelicals specifically? Not sure. Most Protestants I've seen interpret this passage to be reflective of Christ bearing the punishment of the Father, and thus a sense of separation of Christ from the Father. In fact, a Reformed professor in a recent course I had described it exactly so, but he realized something was wrong with that picture when it was pointed out that it breaks the Trinity to actually separate the Son from the Father.
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« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2013, 02:25:57 PM »

Quote
sometimes your only confort is that of someone who is solidar with you and your pain and has actually been through that pain

Which is very mean of us, I think. I try to avoid feeling less bad because someone has suffered before what I suffer. Other people's suffering should not cause any positive feelings, even of consolation. Much less God's suffering.

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we don't have...a God who recapitulated the whole of humanity in his Incarnation

That's the point lovetzatziki. Spiritual pain and separation from God are *not* part of humanity in it's natural state. To recapitulate the whole of humanity does not require going through them. When you assume they are an inherent part of our nature, you're saying they cannot be taken away *ever*. How can someone take consolation fom the "fact" that spiritual pain and separation from God are parts of their very own nature?

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« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2013, 02:59:43 PM »

Quote
sometimes your only confort is that of someone who is solidar with you and your pain and has actually been through that pain

Which is very mean of us, I think. I try to avoid feeling less bad because someone has suffered before what I suffer. Other people's suffering should not cause any positive feelings, even of consolation. Much less God's suffering.

Quote
we don't have...a God who recapitulated the whole of humanity in his Incarnation

That's the point lovetzatziki. Spiritual pain and separation from God are *not* part of humanity in it's natural state. To recapitulate the whole of humanity does not require going through them. When you assume they are an inherent part of our nature, you're saying they cannot be taken away *ever*. How can someone take consolation fom the "fact" that spiritual pain and separation from God are parts of their very own nature?



A solidar person is one who puts himself in your position and understands your conditions or better has been through what you are going through. Only the comfort of such a person is comforting.

You forget that our nature is not the one Adam initially had but the one he lost. So this things are natural to humanity at least since the fall of Adam. Since the fall of Adam all man have gone through sorrows and pangs, and heart-breaking moments, moments of despair, doubts , disbelief, anxiety, agony. Are you saying to me that God chose only to redeem in its Incarnation only a certain human condition , leaving aside the redemption of some human conditions? Are you saying the Redemption is not for all people of all times, in all conditions? What Salvation does one who is psychologically and spiritually fit and good really needs? How is that Salvation if God only chose to redeem in the Incarnation only the best conditions of humanity? We need Salvation from our worst conditions, feelings and senses, not from our best. What did Christ save us from? Did he not bring to rest all the human conditions in his humanity? Did he not deified the entire human conditions ? Did he only deified parts of it?

Please tell me more about your soteriology , I am really curious what is your intepretation of salvation in the framework of this subject.
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« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2013, 03:18:24 PM »

A solidar person is one who puts himself in your position and understands your conditions or better has been through what you are going through. Only the comfort of such a person is comforting.

If the person still cultivates that small inner sadistic, yes.

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You forget that our nature is not the one Adam initially had but the one he lost.
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Tell me more about your soteriology , I am really curious what is your intepretation of salvation in the framework of this subject.

Here is where we diverge. The difference between Adam and us is not one of nature, or we would be different beings altogether. We have the same nature, healthy in pre-fall Adam, sick in post-fall Adam and us. The spiritual pain is one of the symptons of the disease, which Jesus never had.

Jesus did not come to satisfy that little sadistisc in us who feels some compensation in knowing the fact that we are not alone in hell. He came healthy to destroy all sickness and its symptoms.

The concept that spiritual pain would be part of what we are would imply that: we are not even the same category of being that Adam is, like a human and a monkey. Saving us would have nothing to do with saving Adam. Also it would imply that once saved, spiritual pain would have to still exist.

Do you really only accept medical adivce from doctors who have suffered the same disease you did? You really feel more consolatin on the fact that the person healing you also had your disease than in the fact that he *is* healing you? I feel consolation inknowing that before me is someone who knows better than I, who knows a different path, I am even glad for this person. How can I hear the person suffered and feel anything but sorrow about that?
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« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2013, 03:46:32 PM »

And here is my understanding of soteriology.
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« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2013, 04:14:49 PM »

A solidar person is one who puts himself in your position and understands your conditions or better has been through what you are going through. Only the comfort of such a person is comforting.

If the person still cultivates that small inner sadistic, yes.

Quote
You forget that our nature is not the one Adam initially had but the one he lost.
Quote
Tell me more about your soteriology , I am really curious what is your intepretation of salvation in the framework of this subject.

Here is where we diverge. The difference between Adam and us is not one of nature, or we would be different beings altogether. We have the same nature, healthy in pre-fall Adam, sick in post-fall Adam and us. The spiritual pain is one of the symptons of the disease, which Jesus never had.

Jesus did not come to satisfy that little sadistisc in us who feels some compensation in knowing the fact that we are not alone in hell. He came healthy to destroy all sickness and its symptoms.

The concept that spiritual pain would be part of what we are would imply that: we are not even the same category of being that Adam is, like a human and a monkey. Saving us would have nothing to do with saving Adam. Also it would imply that once saved, spiritual pain would have to still exist.

Do you really only accept medical adivce from doctors who have suffered the same disease you did? You really feel more consolatin on the fact that the person healing you also had your disease than in the fact that he *is* healing you? I feel consolation inknowing that before me is someone who knows better than I, who knows a different path, I am even glad for this person. How can I hear the person suffered and feel anything but sorrow about that?

How did Jesus destroy all "sickness" and its symptoms ? Did he do it in his human hypostasis if so how could he if his human hypostasis has nothing of "sickness" ?

(Could any doctor care anything about any cure and healing without first sympathising and being solidar with the ones who suffer of different sicknessess ? Isn't this the reason why cures were invented in the first place? Nevertheless the comparision is not right, because you cannot compare things of the soul with medicine, there is no exact fit. This is an whole other domain. There is no physical drug, medication , etc that you can give to the heart to heal it. The heart is only healed by the heart. The heart is only healed by love. Love descends to the lowest most dangerous , most miserable and most humiliating conditions. Love has no limits. There can be no healing in a broken heart except by a heart that fits the broken space of another broken heart , or that molds itself in the form of a missing piece of the heart.

The understanding is that of the heart, of the sentiments. The world is full with people whose advices count for nothing. Only the one who reaches with his heart in your broken heart, whose heart finds a match with your heart, can heal your heart. It is not "the small inner sadistic" . Only the one who assumes your condition can heal it. And this is love. And assuming ones condition means having descended into his condition. It is not about sadism, but about understanding, connection of hearts. The advice of someone who has been there is more powerful than any theory, because it is verifiable and empiric. )

Closing the parenthesis.

I still haven't seen your soteriology and your views on the Incarnation , Life, Human Hypostasis and the Death of Jesus and how are those effected in our Salvation.

Do you not think Jesus' human hypostasis is a prototype of all humanity and directly and indirectly contains all humanity in itself? Do you not believe in Recapitulation Atonement?

Do you think all this affections of the heart are a sin, a disorder? What about getting your heart crushed because of love, or being abandoned and left , or sad because a close relative died?

Do you think Jesus did not experienced any negative feelings?

What is your view on Jesus' humanity? Was it fallible to sin , distress, pains of the heart, etc, or was it all infallible? Do you believe his humanity was absorbed by his divinity?
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« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2013, 04:46:36 PM »

Lovetzatziki,

Your compassionate doctor would get the disease to heal the patient in a solidary way? Or would he take all the care possible *not* to get sick in order to better help?

Jesus destroys the sickness by having *in Him* perfect human nature, and since we are "hypostasis" of human nature, we may accept this union already actualized in our nature or live forever struggling against Him who is already with us.

Let me show you some sufferings Jesus did not have:
Jesus did not lust for a woman. Jesus never felt "teen angst". Jesus also never had a daugther raped. Jesus was never burned alive or got old with a degenerative disease. Jesus doesn't know from first experience the pains an autist has to go through. Jesus was betrayed by a friend, but not by His own mother like some people are. The meaning of Jesus being with us and having a human nature is *not* that He went through every single human experience possible.  And, an entire category of human experience that He did not go through was sin and its consequences.

Despair is sin, putting it simply and objectively. It's lack of faith. Now, we sing that Jesus is the only one pure and sinless. How do you reconcile that with the concept that Jesus would feel the spiritual pain that comes with the sin of despair?

A solidar person is one who puts himself in your position and understands your conditions or better has been through what you are going through. Only the comfort of such a person is comforting.

If the person still cultivates that small inner sadistic, yes.

Quote
You forget that our nature is not the one Adam initially had but the one he lost.
Quote
Tell me more about your soteriology , I am really curious what is your intepretation of salvation in the framework of this subject.

Here is where we diverge. The difference between Adam and us is not one of nature, or we would be different beings altogether. We have the same nature, healthy in pre-fall Adam, sick in post-fall Adam and us. The spiritual pain is one of the symptons of the disease, which Jesus never had.

Jesus did not come to satisfy that little sadistisc in us who feels some compensation in knowing the fact that we are not alone in hell. He came healthy to destroy all sickness and its symptoms.

The concept that spiritual pain would be part of what we are would imply that: we are not even the same category of being that Adam is, like a human and a monkey. Saving us would have nothing to do with saving Adam. Also it would imply that once saved, spiritual pain would have to still exist.

Do you really only accept medical adivce from doctors who have suffered the same disease you did? You really feel more consolatin on the fact that the person healing you also had your disease than in the fact that he *is* healing you? I feel consolation inknowing that before me is someone who knows better than I, who knows a different path, I am even glad for this person. How can I hear the person suffered and feel anything but sorrow about that?

How did Jesus destroy all "sickness" and its symptoms ? Did he do it in his human hypostasis if so how could he if his human hypostasis has nothing of "sickness" ?

(Could any doctor care anything about any cure and healing without first sympathising and being solidar with the ones who suffer of different sicknessess ? Isn't this the reason why cures were invented in the first place? Nevertheless the comparision is not right, because you cannot compare things of the soul with medicine, there is no exact fit. This is an whole other domain. There is no physical drug, medication , etc that you can give to the heart to heal it. The heart is only healed by the heart. The heart is only healed by love. Love descends to the lowest most dangerous , most miserable and most humiliating conditions. Love has no limits. There can be no healing in a broken heart except by a heart that fits the broken space of another broken heart , or that molds itself in the form of a missing piece of the heart.

The understanding is that of the heart, of the sentiments. The world is full with people whose advices count for nothing. Only the one who reaches with his heart in your broken heart, whose heart finds a match with your heart, can heal your heart. It is not "the small inner sadistic" . Only the one who assumes your condition can heal it. And this is love. And assuming ones condition means having descended into his condition. It is not about sadism, but about understanding, connection of hearts. The advice of someone who has been there is more powerful than any theory, because it is verifiable and empiric. )

Closing the parenthesis.

I still haven't seen your soteriology and your views on the Incarnation , Life, Human Hypostasis and the Death of Jesus and how are those effected in our Salvation.

Do you not think Jesus' human hypostasis is a prototype of all humanity and directly and indirectly contains all humanity in itself? Do you not believe in Recapitulation Atonement?

Do you think all this affections of the heart are a sin, a disorder? What about getting your heart crushed because of love, or being abandoned and left , or sad because a close relative died?

Do you think Jesus did not experienced any negative feelings?

What is your view on Jesus' humanity? Was it fallible to sin , distress, pains of the heart, etc, or was it all infallible? Do you believe his humanity was absorbed by his divinity?
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