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Author Topic: Pre-Schism Marian Devotions  (Read 192 times) Average Rating: 0
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Bernardoastur7
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« on: September 17, 2014, 10:33:26 PM »

Dear brethren, I looked for this but couldn't find something clear, and I really hope my question does not upset anyone.

As you are aware RC's have many devotions to the Theotokos under different names, something I believe is shared by the Orthodox Churches.  To be concrete, those devotions of the West, pre-schism, could be considered as valid by the Orthodox Church?  In my concrete case, as a Spaniard I love the Theotokos and I have a special love for the Virgin of Covadonga, who is the Patron Virgin of Asturies where I'm from.  The devotion goes to around the 3rd or 4th Century and became stronger around 8th Century with the Reconquista.

I know that under any advocation, we are venerating the Theotokos, and as long as we do not fall into the errors that unfortunately the RC Church has fallen into, I believe it should not be a problem, however I want to share this question with the forum.  Further, I suppose the opinions might change with other advocations such as Fatima, the Miraculous Medal and Guadalupe.

God bless you all

Bernardo
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« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2014, 10:57:58 PM »

Could you explain the story surrounding the beginning of the Virgin of Covadonga devotion and what practicing it looks like?
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« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2014, 11:01:09 PM »

Well, I know for a fact that there are several Orthodox parishes named after Our Lady of Walsingham (an apparition dating to England, 1061). Some of them are Western Rite.

Whether 1061 is post-schism or not depends on whether you accept the idea that the English church was subjected to a "hostile takeover" in 1066 with King Harold's defeat (the battle commemorated in the famous Bayeux Tapestry).

Fatima would of course be problematic given the controversial comments about Russia, which some Orthodox interpret as a call to convert Russia to Catholicism specifically (I. e., away from Orthodoxy, although the comments are vague enough that they could also be interpreted as a reference to generic Christianity and Soviet atheism instead).

The Miraculous Medal has "Sacred Heart" imagery on it, which is also considered problematic within Orthodoxy because it is seen as Nestorian (I think).

Don't know about Guadalupe. Maybe the OCA's Diocese of Mexico would have an opinion?

Anything going back to the 3rd/4th century should be fine unless it was condemned by an ecumenical council, which the one you mentioned (Covadonga) doesn't seem to be. But of course, it depends on whether you're performing it in the way they did back then, or whether subsequent developments are involved.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 11:02:16 PM by Minnesotan » Logged
Bernardoastur7
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« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2014, 03:03:25 PM »

Could you explain the story surrounding the beginning of the Virgin of Covadonga devotion and what practicing it looks like?
The very beginning is kind of lost in time.  The earliest chronicles mention the veneration of a small statue of the Holy Virgin carrying in her left arm the Baby Jesus and a rose in her right hand.  The people of the zone (back then named Ongar and then "romanized to Onis") went in pilgrimages to venerate the Holy Virgin in the cave (its a small cave where a cascade is born and then turns into one of the largest rivers of the Principality).

When the moors invaded Hispania, the Astures retreated to that area because is a mountainous (sp) area and difficult for horses, which was the strength of the moors, and the main leaders refuged themselves in the cave.  Tradition says that the Virgin spoke in dreams to Pelayo, the main leader and told him that with the Cross they would win against the Moors.  So they decided to stay and fought the Battle of Covadonga in 718 which is considered the start of the Reconquest.

After that and up to this date, the veneration of the Holy Virgin of Covadonga is, we could say very orthodox, hymns are chanted, there pilgrimages and processions, lots of Rosaries, everyday Mass in the Cave and in the Basilica built in the base of the Mountain, and in the day of her celebration (September Cool we love to make the mountains tremble with Bagpipes, drums, and all kind of Celtic instruments!  Here in Mexico, in the Church of Our Lady of Covadonga, sometimes we can get together some Pipers to play to her.  Ah something nice is that to get to the cave one has to wask through a tunnel...maybe 300 meters long full of candles to both sides, that the people light in devotion, is a wonderful place.

As far as I am aware, no Ecumenical Council has condemned it.  There is a paralell tradition that says it was carved by Saint James (Santiago) after the apparition of the Holy Virgin in Zaragoza (Virgin of the Pillar), and it has been part of the second road to Santiago, but that story I dont know it very well.

God bless and thanks for answering!

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« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2014, 03:52:40 PM »

Privately you may venerate anything or anyone. Rite controls what you do in church, so if you're Orthodox, no liturgical commemoration or public devotions to post-schism Catholic stuff.

I understand the oldest Marian prayer isn't the Hail Mary (Rejoice, O Virgin Theotokos) even though that's scriptural. I remember as a kid hearing the mysterious, nefarious Hail Mary for the first time and being pleasantly surprised that it's mostly scriptural. No, it's Sub Tuum Praesidium (Beneath Your Compassion).

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« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2014, 04:36:44 PM »

Privately you may venerate anything or anyone. Rite controls what you do in church, so if you're Orthodox, no liturgical commemoration or public devotions to post-schism Catholic stuff.

I understand the oldest Marian prayer isn't the Hail Mary (Rejoice, O Virgin Theotokos) even though that's scriptural. I remember as a kid hearing the mysterious, nefarious Hail Mary for the first time and being pleasantly surprised that it's mostly scriptural. No, it's Sub Tuum Praesidium (Beneath Your Compassion).



Подъ твою милость, as we Slavs like to say, is indeed a most venerable and universal Marian prayer. Variations on its simple, yet profound, theme, may be found in any number of Slavic folk Marian hymns and processional songs. And this version, by the Ukrainian composer Bortiansky always moves me profoundly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCn2kb_kms0
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