OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 26, 2014, 01:17:30 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Dating/relationship shoulds  (Read 2317 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Anastasia1
My warrior name is Beyoncé Pad Thai
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Occasionally traveling, Armenian.
Posts: 1,160



« on: June 30, 2013, 05:41:59 PM »

How can I learn to distinguish shoulds in what to look for vs. optionals?
What kind of things should I look for and what is just up to me?
Logged

Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. (2 Cor 2:6)
Jovan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Great Britain and Scandinavia
Posts: 515



« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2013, 07:01:49 PM »

Hello Anastasia, I hope everything is fine with you my sister in the Lord. Please forgive me if my answer doesn´t address your question properly.

My personal advice on this, as I assume from reading some of your other posts, that your in process of meeting someone.
Keep a strong hold of your faith,with truth, openness and honesty on things, questions and matters that eventually will pop up.
You seem like a woman with a big heart, full of faith and love. Don´t let that be nr 2 when the questions on job, income, church attendance, fasting and tons of issues arise.

From personal experience, I always felt that the answers was at hand, I should do this Jovan, I should ask about this Jovan, I MUST ask of her view on this issue etc. The problem for me was that I never did anything of this, out fear for man and his judgement. If your opinion, in accordance with the church ( AND ofcourse spiritual guidance from your priest) is clear, than make that clear to him. If faith is nr 1 for you, make that clear to him at once.

You will know the shoulds in good time my dear sister. But the things that becomes optional is when we feel that the shoulds become hinders in the relationship.

One example I can come up with could be on confession. If you meet someone that goes to church, keeps with all the dates and celebrations but never makes confessions to the priest as well as receiving communion. That is totally optional on his own side, but for your sake, you know what the "should" should be for him in this case. That he should regard the sacraments as something to strengthen his relationship with God, and therefore in the long term with you. Keeping in on sins will affect people around him.

This was just an example, but the should always stands clear in something optional I think. If confession to priest doesn´t matter in a relationship, then someone within it will receive an entire confession before breaking up Tongue

Same goes with income, family, ethnicity. Is he rich and you poor. If that matters to him but you feel it optional, then it will become a problem sooner or later. The should is that it doesn´t matter Cheesy

Forgive me for an bombastic respond, pray and forgive me sister. I pray that God richly guide you with all the shoulds and bless you into a wonderful journey Smiley
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 07:04:08 PM by Jovan » Logged

“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Faith: refuse
Posts: 29,279


Mzack.


« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2013, 07:10:07 PM »

I'm afraid, at least in my experience, it's almost impossible to figure out ahead of time. The most you can do is figure out what you think about such-and-such, admitting that it has to be flexible, not necessarily how you'll respond.  For example, you might say that you absolutely, positively, definitely will not date someone who smokes. Then you might meet someone that is your dream guy, except that he smokes, and suddenly realize that you're more than happy to look past the smoking. The should and ratings and judgments and requirements we make up in our heads often don't transfer well to real life. What's that saying about boxers and mma guys, something like "every fighter has a plan, until they get hit..."  Same thing with dating.
Logged
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,100


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2013, 08:06:50 PM »

Look at how he treats his mothers and sisters (if applicable).

When you decide, remember that this man will be your head, and you'll be submitting to him.   If he treats his mother well, he could very likely treat you well.   Take into consideration the headship order, and if you can trust him, you'll grow strong in a Christian relationship.
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
Jovan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Great Britain and Scandinavia
Posts: 515



« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2013, 08:13:21 PM »

Beautiful advices brothers/sisters. Will eventually God willing help me, when I´m ready ;P
Logged

“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,450


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2013, 09:16:39 PM »

The small things are the best things to look for;

Does he just try and be you "head" while dating? When at a restaurant, does he want to order *for you*? That sort of personality will persist and even be more pronounced in marriage. Some women like that sort of thing. That would drive me nuts.

Does he try to open doors for you? Like when getting into the car, does he unlock and open your door first, and then walk around to his side to get in? Or does he just get into the car and lean across to unlock your side? A man that always insists upon getting in first is going to insist upon being first in all things. Or he is so lazy, he doesn't want to go thru the extra effort to be a gentleman laugh

Is the man trying to up the physical aspect quickly? Everyone has a timeline for these things. But if a man wants to start kissing within a month of meeting, I think it is a very bad sign. A month isn't long enough to know anyone well enough to start swapping bodily fluids. The chemistry/desire can be there. But if a guy "can't help himself" when it comes to gropping you, that isn't a good sign.

How does he talk about children? Is his longing for children stronger than his desire to have a partner in life? No woman wants to be a walking womb. But it isn't a good sign if a man wants to be so much of a free spirit that he can't imagine ever settling down to have a normal life. Road life can be fun, but eventually everyone has to settle down for awhile. If his attitude is a passive- eh, I don't know? maybe I will want to settle down someday? Then he isn't mature enough for a relationship. The same would go for his attitude toward marriage. You don't want a man that is desperate to get married ASAP. If he has a sort of "whenever" attitude, that whenever may never come. Dating for decades isn't a replacement for an actual marriage. But desperation for marriage isn't a good sign either. The time when you are dating you are laying a foundation for your marriage. A man that wants to jumpstart the process has reasons for it, and they aren't always good ones. Yes, a quick marriage can be successful, but in the current society they often aren't.

How well does he deal with stress? Does he curse and freak out at every game, traffic delay or political turn? If he is "passionate" about every little thing in life, he may not be capable of discerning what is worth fighting for, and what is worth walking away from. If he is valium cool about everything then that isn't a good sign either. A man should be passionate about the things that matter; faith, family, friends. But everything else should have a moderated response.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qxd9OMkCrMo
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 09:30:58 PM by Quinault » Logged
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,450


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2013, 09:26:58 PM »

I really think that dedicated dating of one person isn't always a good idea. This idea that as soon as you start getting to know someone it should be exclusive is just unwise. Get to know people, leave the physical aspect out COMPLETELY and dating multiple people is good and healthy (as long as everyone knows that dating other people is OK). It isn't alright to be making out with Tom Tuesday, then making out with Fred Thursday. Likewise you don't want the person you are dating to be making out with Sally Wednesday and you Friday. Once dating proceeds to physical levels then it should be exclusive. But before it is physical there is no need to limit yourself to one person.
Logged
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: On-n-Off
Jurisdiction: OCA (the only truly Canonical American Orthodox Church)
Posts: 5,222


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2013, 10:46:38 PM »

How do I find out if a woman wants children or not? I reeeeally don't want to have them, mostly due to bad experiences having to watch my siblings all the time, but I know that like 90% of women want children.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,450


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2013, 11:42:57 PM »

I don't think you need to be overly concerned about that right now JamesR. I don't think 90% of women want children. At least that isn't specific to the area I live in. I'd say like 50% of women want children. Once you move out and go to college you will be around a different demographic. Your desire to not have children that your baggage has baggage. I didn't ever want kids at 17 either, I have 6 now Roll Eyes

I can't get over the fact that you were born the year I was married. It makes me feel very, very old Smiley
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 11:44:06 PM by Quinault » Logged
Adela
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 612



« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2013, 02:54:08 PM »

Don't get to caught up in looking for a specific type.  In the other thread you mentioned looking for a corporate leader/go-getter type of man.  To be honest, after working in a few large corporations and watching some of these men who are vying to move up the corporate ladder  Roll Eyes and also having a brother who quickly rose up to vice-president in a large tech company on the west coast while in his 30's, those type of men might not be what they seem.  My brother even said most of the people in executive leadership positions are all psychopaths and I sorta believe this.   There's image and then there's reality.

First you should really think about behaviors you absolutely won't accept.   In addition to the advice about seeing how he treats his mother, see how he talks about previous girlfriends.  Watch out for men who can only trash previous girlfriends as if the women were all so evil and he is a saint.  That is never reality.  Watch out for men who flatter you initially but then slowly start working in the criticisms and put-downs, etc.  Don't tolerate guys who belittle you, just get out quickly.  Watch out for guys who can't save money and are irresponsible, if you have kids you want to make sure there is money for the dentist or doctor and that you don't have to worry about where you will be living. 

Look for someone that can handle conflict well (life is full of conflict, from dealing with irrational people to situations where everything breaks at once.) Look for someone where you feel serene and comfortable, and where everything is easygoing in spite of some differences.  This is what I've found with my husband of 1 year.  We've  have some conflict but it gets quickly resolved back to where we are joking and laughing with each other.  If you can find someone who you enjoy being with, who acts in your best interest just as you act in his best interest, it doesn't matter what profession he has or what type of guy he is.  Then you will be a team and have a life partner.

This song by Louis Jordan (who started the Jump Blues) is rather funny.  It basically says to look for a mellow kind of creature who wants to call a preacher.   Smiley
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xybR9HXFZJA



Logged
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,040



« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2013, 03:46:10 PM »

How can I learn to distinguish shoulds in what to look for vs. optionals?
What kind of things should I look for and what is just up to me?
Mandatory:
alive
nice person
you like being around him
Takes his Christian faith seriously
humble

Optionals:
Pretty much everything else
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,196



« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2013, 03:52:05 PM »

I really think that dedicated dating of one person isn't always a good idea. This idea that as soon as you start getting to know someone it should be exclusive is just unwise. Get to know people, leave the physical aspect out COMPLETELY and dating multiple people is good and healthy (as long as everyone knows that dating other people is OK). It isn't alright to be making out with Tom Tuesday, then making out with Fred Thursday. Likewise you don't want the person you are dating to be making out with Sally Wednesday and you Friday. Once dating proceeds to physical levels then it should be exclusive. But before it is physical there is no need to limit yourself to one person.

+1
Excellent advice!
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2013, 05:54:43 PM »

Look at how he treats his mothers and sisters (if applicable).

When you decide, remember that this man will be your head, and you'll be submitting to him.   If he treats his mother well, he could very likely treat you well.   Take into consideration the headship order, and if you can trust him, you'll grow strong in a Christian relationship.

You sweet talker!
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2013, 05:57:03 PM »

I really think that dedicated dating of one person isn't always a good idea. This idea that as soon as you start getting to know someone it should be exclusive is just unwise. Get to know people, leave the physical aspect out COMPLETELY and dating multiple people is good and healthy (as long as everyone knows that dating other people is OK). It isn't alright to be making out with Tom Tuesday, then making out with Fred Thursday. Likewise you don't want the person you are dating to be making out with Sally Wednesday and you Friday. Once dating proceeds to physical levels then it should be exclusive. But before it is physical there is no need to limit yourself to one person.

+1
Excellent advice!

People call me a monster when I suggest it.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2013, 06:02:36 PM »

I once tried to have thread about this . . .

I will remain too much of a romantic, which is to say Christian. Too many people on this website elevate cultural and tribal norms along with their wounds above the notion of a blind and seemingly pathological love, which is to say true love.

Anyone who thinks love is something pleasant knows nothing of the matter beyond whatever pop song can currently let you know.

If you buy into the whole coolodox notion that God is love and heaven or hell is how you experience it, I believe I will be in hell for forever.

Love sucks.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2013, 06:04:43 PM »

The small things are the best things to look for;

Does he just try and be you "head" while dating? When at a restaurant, does he want to order *for you*? That sort of personality will persist and even be more pronounced in marriage. Some women like that sort of thing. That would drive me nuts.

Does he try to open doors for you? Like when getting into the car, does he unlock and open your door first, and then walk around to his side to get in? Or does he just get into the car and lean across to unlock your side? A man that always insists upon getting in first is going to insist upon being first in all things. Or he is so lazy, he doesn't want to go thru the extra effort to be a gentleman laugh

Is the man trying to up the physical aspect quickly? Everyone has a timeline for these things. But if a man wants to start kissing within a month of meeting, I think it is a very bad sign. A month isn't long enough to know anyone well enough to start swapping bodily fluids. The chemistry/desire can be there. But if a guy "can't help himself" when it comes to gropping you, that isn't a good sign.

How does he talk about children? Is his longing for children stronger than his desire to have a partner in life? No woman wants to be a walking womb. But it isn't a good sign if a man wants to be so much of a free spirit that he can't imagine ever settling down to have a normal life. Road life can be fun, but eventually everyone has to settle down for awhile. If his attitude is a passive- eh, I don't know? maybe I will want to settle down someday? Then he isn't mature enough for a relationship. The same would go for his attitude toward marriage. You don't want a man that is desperate to get married ASAP. If he has a sort of "whenever" attitude, that whenever may never come. Dating for decades isn't a replacement for an actual marriage. But desperation for marriage isn't a good sign either. The time when you are dating you are laying a foundation for your marriage. A man that wants to jumpstart the process has reasons for it, and they aren't always good ones. Yes, a quick marriage can be successful, but in the current society they often aren't.

How well does he deal with stress? Does he curse and freak out at every game, traffic delay or political turn? If he is "passionate" about every little thing in life, he may not be capable of discerning what is worth fighting for, and what is worth walking away from. If he is valium cool about everything then that isn't a good sign either. A man should be passionate about the things that matter; faith, family, friends. But everything else should have a moderated response.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qxd9OMkCrMo

I am mixed bag of the above which is to say a disaster.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2013, 06:06:56 PM »

Fall in love Anastasia. There really is no formula.

If you are halfway sane, you will be OK. If you are not, it doesn't matter what checklists you make, you will not be.

Best of luck.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,450


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2013, 06:57:05 PM »

I think the #1 thing to look for is the only one that really matters:

Don't be in a relationship with someone you can't respect.

For everyone this is different. For me, it means that he has to be more intelligent than me. He can't be easily manipulated. There once was a guy so desperate to "win" me that he ate soap. Another guy almost got into a fight with a huge biker that was oggling me. I just can't respect that. Getting into a fight because someone is looking at your woman is stupid neanderthal posturing. A good man just smiles in the knowledge that he *has* her and doesn't need to defend her like property. Movies make it seem so romantic when guys fight over a girl. In real life it is embarrassing and horrifying.

I have to say that I don't think that the way a man treats his mama is the best indicator as a whole. Because if mama is emotionally manipulative, you don't want your spouse jumping at every sniffle. If he has a good mama, then he should treat her well and there should be healthy boundaries (often reinforced by a good dad). A good man loves his mama, but he isn't still tied to her apron strings.

Now I LOVE my son's. But if they wanted me to do their laundry for them and baby them in adulthood I would put my foot down. Failing that, my husband would put his foot down. They will likely always be my baby. It will be hard for me to stop seeing them as children I know. But a good son helps his mama see that he is a responsible adult and wants to be treated as such. Many a woman has hated the fact that her husband is a mama's boy. And that has led to plenty of unhappy marriages.

Second to respect; a man that can cook/shop/do his own laundry is an absolute keeper. My husband is the absolute master of all things circular and fried Grin

My sons will be in high demand. They will *all* be taught to cook, clean, shop, sew, budget properly. If any of my kids leave my house helpless to care for themselves, I didn't do my job as a mom properly. They may not be experts in every area. But they will all know how to have the skills to take care of themselves. I was absolutely horrified when I taught a cooking class at a Jr high. None of the kids knew how to so much as crack an egg, let alone whip some heavy cream into whipped cream. Really, the best whipped cream doesn't come from a tub/can so these kids were missing out!
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 07:13:33 PM by Quinault » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,493


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2013, 07:34:07 PM »

Look at how he treats his mothers and sisters (if applicable).

When you decide, remember that this man will be your head, and you'll be submitting to him.   If he treats his mother well, he could very likely treat you well.   Take into consideration the headship order, and if you can trust him, you'll grow strong in a Christian relationship.
How is this advice Orthodox?
Logged
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2013, 08:33:32 PM »

Quinault,Adela you women are awesome! Adela thanks for the song Grin



yeshua, the headship order and its submissive....really? lol

 

Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
RehamG
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Inquirer
Posts: 276



WWW
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2013, 08:34:36 PM »

How do I find out if a woman wants children or not? I reeeeally don't want to have them, mostly due to bad experiences having to watch my siblings all the time, but I know that like 90% of women want children.

JamesR, I used to say the same thing when I was your age. I even looked into surgically making sure I had no kids around age 19-20. I had a less than pleasant home life and I have 4 sisters, all of whom are anywhere from 6 to 15yr younger than me. Time changes people. I now have 2 of my own. How about asking her if she would be be open to no kids versus an all across the board never for both you guys.

Quinault's answers are amazing!
Logged

"A humble man who lives a spiritual life, when he reads the Holy Scriptures, will relate all things to himself and not to others.”

– St. Mark the Ascetic, Sermon, 1.6
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,450


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2013, 10:31:07 PM »

I really think that dedicated dating of one person isn't always a good idea. This idea that as soon as you start getting to know someone it should be exclusive is just unwise. Get to know people, leave the physical aspect out COMPLETELY and dating multiple people is good and healthy (as long as everyone knows that dating other people is OK). It isn't alright to be making out with Tom Tuesday, then making out with Fred Thursday. Likewise you don't want the person you are dating to be making out with Sally Wednesday and you Friday. Once dating proceeds to physical levels then it should be exclusive. But before it is physical there is no need to limit yourself to one person.

+1
Excellent advice!

People call me a monster when I suggest it.

I suspect there is some sexism involved in that. Often people assume that when a man suggests dating multiple people they mean getting really physical with multiple people. The idea that when you date you have to be mauling each other is really, really sad.

For the record; my dear husband waited a month to finally make any sort of move. And he waited quite awhile to profess love. Call me a skeptic, but if someone thinks they are in love with you after a short period of time- they aren't being all that honest. Love is far too complicated of a feeling to simply toss out on a whim. Unfortunately many people think love=sexual chemistry. And that simply isn't the case. And that sort of attitude has to have an impact in the rising divorce rate. But society and media like to paint this whole love at first sight thing. And I will admit that I was smitten with my husband the moment I saw him. But I was decidedly *not* in love with him when I first saw him. I just thought he was really, really hot.  laugh I fell in love when he wrote me a song  angel
Logged
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,100


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2013, 10:49:00 PM »

Look at how he treats his mothers and sisters (if applicable).

When you decide, remember that this man will be your head, and you'll be submitting to him.   If he treats his mother well, he could very likely treat you well.   Take into consideration the headship order, and if you can trust him, you'll grow strong in a Christian relationship.
How is this advice Orthodox?

In the Eastern Orthodox faith the man is the head of his wife and the woman is supposed to submit to her husband.

The other advice isn't formulated religiously, but just practical common sense.
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,100


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2013, 10:50:21 PM »

Quinault,Adela you women are awesome! Adela thanks for the song Grin



yeshua, the headship order and its submissive....really? lol

The Orthodox St. Tikhon wrote about a wives being submissive.  It's EO teaching 101.
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,100


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2013, 10:52:30 PM »

I once tried to have thread about this . . .

I will remain too much of a romantic, which is to say Christian. Too many people on this website elevate cultural and tribal norms along with their wounds above the notion of a blind and seemingly pathological love, which is to say true love.

Anyone who thinks love is something pleasant knows nothing of the matter beyond whatever pop song can currently let you know.

If you buy into the whole coolodox notion that God is love and heaven or hell is how you experience it, I believe I will be in hell for forever.

Love sucks.

So basically Orthonorm, you just denied the scriptures and said "God Sucks", because God is love - as written in our scriptures.
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,450


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2013, 10:56:20 PM »

There is submissive, then there is doormat. If a man wants to wed a doormat he is a megalomaniac. Looking for someone to submit to isn't the best route for a woman. Looking for someone you can respect means that you can trust them enough to submit to them. But really in marriage someone leads, but you often submit to each other on different matters.
Logged
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,100


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2013, 11:00:08 PM »

There is submissive, then there is doormat. If a man wants to wed a doormat he is a megalomaniac. Looking for someone to submit to isn't the best route for a woman. Looking for someone you can respect means that you can trust them enough to submit to them. But really in marriage someone leads, but you often submit to each other on different matters.

^This.  Doormat thing is out both biblically and in EO teaching.   "Husbands love your wives as yourself..." Basically the woman should be looking for a husband that she can trust enough to submit to.  This would be a husband that loves and respects her.
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,493


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2013, 11:55:01 PM »

Look at how he treats his mothers and sisters (if applicable).

When you decide, remember that this man will be your head, and you'll be submitting to him.   If he treats his mother well, he could very likely treat you well.   Take into consideration the headship order, and if you can trust him, you'll grow strong in a Christian relationship.
How is this advice Orthodox?

In the Eastern Orthodox faith the man is the head of his wife and the woman is supposed to submit to her husband.
You presume to speak for the Orthodox faith a lot, even though you've not been Orthodox for many years. I also have to take the meaning of your usage of "head of the wife" and "submit to her husband" within the context of what you have said previously of marriage relations. Whereas the words you use are biblical and Orthodox, the misogynist, chauvinistic spin you have often put on them is not.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 11:59:35 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,762


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2013, 12:04:49 AM »

Not to mention jargon like "headship".

I still remember Maximum Bob, I think it was, once said, "the rubber met the road when it came to spiritual headship'. I remember that phrase distinctly because I had no frame of reference by which to comprehend the real implications, beside the obvious.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 12:05:19 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"Simply put, if you’re not willing to take what is dearest to you, whether plans or people, and kiss it goodbye, you can’t be my disciple."
Salpy
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,384


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2013, 12:32:43 AM »


The man is the head, but the woman is the neck that turns the head:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIm1dYTv-mQ

 Smiley
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 12:33:34 AM by Salpy » Logged

Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 15,313


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2013, 12:59:24 AM »

I LOL'd at one of the comments for that video:

Quote
The neck can not turn the head without the head. Where do you think the ability to turn the neck comes from? Without the head telling it to turn and allowing it, it is impossible.

Does that guy post here?  Smiley
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2013, 01:39:57 AM »

Quinault,Adela you women are awesome! Adela thanks for the song Grin



yeshua, the headship order and its submissive....really? lol

The Orthodox St. Tikhon wrote about a wives being submissive.  It's EO teaching 101.

LOL . ah yeshua! lets focus on the issue at hand, although your other message is duly noted  Wink

The great apostle St. Paul  taught about the husband being the head of the wife as Christ is the Head of the Church, and for husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the Church. you see the Church submits to Christ who loves her in a supreme sacrificial love. He calls her His Body. the Wife of a man , flesh of his flesh bone of his bone will submit to the one who loves her in such Christ like love, ie, that he loves her even to give his very life for her. that is the context that the Orthodox Church teaches about when she teaches the submission of wives to their husbands.

the position of being the head of the wife in the Christian marriage is in  imitation of Christ the Head of the Church.
the position of submitting to the husband in the Christian marriage is in imitation of the Church who is the Body of Christ.

what is in common in all those positions? Love. the Husband must love her enough to die for her, those that have no clue about such kind of supreme love still covet about being the head thus the perversion of such a loving position in a marriage into a mere control and fear generating position . the wife in return will submit out of love to the one who loves her above his very life.. calling him lord is no hardship, calling him her life is no hardship, flesh of her flesh bone of her bone, she will delight in submitting to him  in this context. she does not submit out of fear or weakness, but out of her love for the one who loves her back in the fullest sense of the term. just as the Church submits to Christ.



now if you were there for the 101 class, I am sure  you know the full context of the how and the why  is stressed as the most important factor when speaking about this particular dynamics in the Christian marriage and the role of Love in it. now imitating the One crucified for his beloved on that cross is what being a head is about, you want that position? the Church says anticipate the cross.


the way you presented it.......leaves out much of the Christian position and introduces something else entirely different.
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
Kerdy
Moderated
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2013, 01:54:15 AM »

First thing is remember you are never nearly as perfect as the person you are trying to find.  No one is.

Second, be ye not unequally yoked.

Third, character over "hotness".

Fourth, if you actually find a guy who will tolerate all of this ultra defensive reactionary tone to the biblical role of men and women...run.  He's been neutered.  

Fifth, even though he recognizes number four as modern drivel, he should see you and value you more than anything else in the world.  This shouldn't change until a child appears.  This doesn't mean you always get what you want.  It means he cares for you more than himself.

Sixth, life is full of adventure.  Enjoy it!  Learn what works for you and what you have that needs adjustment.  

Seventh, don't rush anything.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 01:56:11 AM by Kerdy » Logged
Kerdy
Moderated
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2013, 01:59:34 AM »

How can I learn to distinguish shoulds in what to look for vs. optionals?
What kind of things should I look for and what is just up to me?
Mandatory:
alive
nice person
you like being around him
Takes his Christian faith seriously
humble

Optionals:
Pretty much everything else
Good post!
Logged
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2013, 02:43:31 AM »

I once tried to have thread about this . . .

I will remain too much of a romantic, which is to say Christian. Too many people on this website elevate cultural and tribal norms along with their wounds above the notion of a blind and seemingly pathological love, which is to say true love.

Anyone who thinks love is something pleasant knows nothing of the matter beyond whatever pop song can currently let you know.

If you buy into the whole coolodox notion that God is love and heaven or hell is how you experience it, I believe I will be in hell for forever.

Love sucks.

So basically Orthonorm, you just denied the scriptures and said "God Sucks", because God is love - as written in our scriptures.


I am sure Orthonorm himself will break down what he just said for you.

In the mean time yeshua, just because I am plain irritated by how wrong you are over this I will say this: is all that you have read the part that said love sucks only? because if you have read the sentences prior to that you would have known, he is arguing in defense of the integrity of  True Love that is above and deeper than what the overly used term means to people these days. that kind of love comes with pain, suffering,death and depending on how you experience the pain of that love you are either in heaven or hell. only that kind of love can be called love the rest are poor imitations. love hands out such mortal pain to those who dare to take it on. to die to self is not a walk in the park, so the pain sucks but love knows no other way so it is not your average joy ride most of the movies make it up to be.


God is Love yes. now how did God love the world? there you see the dying to self, the sacrifice, the pain of loving those who might even hate you? no if someone expects love to be a pleasant high they will be rudely awakened by the bad trip.

so in the above I read what orthonorm saying as: do not call what is not Love by such name doing so is a travesty.
 
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
Jovan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Great Britain and Scandinavia
Posts: 515



« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2013, 07:17:41 AM »

I don´t there is no reason to argue about the husbands being the head of the family. I don´t think he meant submissive in the way seculars think of submissive. "Go and cook food and clear the dishes". Of course love is the first priority in the family, as always. The first woman was out of man to be a helper, not in material means, but in spiritual as well. There is a reason behind why a wife of a priest often does not work, because her career is to be a helper with love, spiritual guidance and care within the family. If yeshuaisiam meant submissive in a strict way, then of course that will have wrong implications on the orthodox teaching, but I don´t think he meant so. The way a man treats his mother is actually a good way to see how he will treat his wife.
Logged

“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."
Hiwot
Christ is Risen!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 1,959


Job 19:25-27


« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2013, 11:42:01 AM »

I really think that dedicated dating of one person isn't always a good idea. This idea that as soon as you start getting to know someone it should be exclusive is just unwise. Get to know people, leave the physical aspect out COMPLETELY and dating multiple people is good and healthy (as long as everyone knows that dating other people is OK). It isn't alright to be making out with Tom Tuesday, then making out with Fred Thursday. Likewise you don't want the person you are dating to be making out with Sally Wednesday and you Friday. Once dating proceeds to physical levels then it should be exclusive. But before it is physical there is no need to limit yourself to one person.

+1
Excellent advice!

People call me a monster when I suggest it.

I suspect there is some sexism involved in that. Often people assume that when a man suggests dating multiple people they mean getting really physical with multiple people. The idea that when you date you have to be mauling each other is really, really sad.

For the record; my dear husband waited a month to finally make any sort of move. And he waited quite awhile to profess love. Call me a skeptic, but if someone thinks they are in love with you after a short period of time- they aren't being all that honest. Love is far too complicated of a feeling to simply toss out on a whim. Unfortunately many people think love=sexual chemistry. And that simply isn't the case. And that sort of attitude has to have an impact in the rising divorce rate. But society and media like to paint this whole love at first sight thing. And I will admit that I was smitten with my husband the moment I saw him. But I was decidedly *not* in love with him when I first saw him. I just thought he was really, really hot.  laugh I fell in love when he wrote me a song  angel

He gave you music from his heart.........sigh......so beautiful! Grin Grin
Logged

To God be the Glory in all things! Amen!

Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,493


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2013, 11:50:25 AM »

First thing is remember you are never nearly as perfect as the person you are trying to find.  No one is.

Second, be ye not unequally yoked.

Third, character over "hotness".

Fourth, if you actually find a guy who will tolerate all of this ultra defensive reactionary tone to the biblical role of men and women...run.  He's been neutered.  

Fifth, even though he recognizes number four as modern drivel, he should see you and value you more than anything else in the world.  This shouldn't change until a child appears.  This doesn't mean you always get what you want.  It means he cares for you more than himself.

Sixth, life is full of adventure.  Enjoy it!  Learn what works for you and what you have that needs adjustment.  

Seventh, don't rush anything.
I find your terseness quite difficult to decipher. Would you mind giving a much more detailed exposition of what you're talking about? Thank you.
Logged
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,706


« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2013, 11:52:48 AM »

I don't get it. Why would anyone want to ask us questions about dating?
Logged

On a temporary/semi-permanent/permanent vacation from OC.net.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,493


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2013, 11:53:33 AM »

I don´t there is no reason to argue about the husbands being the head of the family. I don´t think he meant submissive in the way seculars think of submissive. "Go and cook food and clear the dishes". Of course love is the first priority in the family, as always. The first woman was out of man to be a helper, not in material means, but in spiritual as well. There is a reason behind why a wife of a priest often does not work, because her career is to be a helper with love, spiritual guidance and care within the family. If yeshuaisiam meant submissive in a strict way, then of course that will have wrong implications on the orthodox teaching, but I don´t think he meant so. The way a man treats his mother is actually a good way to see how he will treat his wife.
How long have you been here at OCnet, Jovan? Wink Your defense of yeshuaisiam shows very little knowledge of his posting history on this forum.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 11:54:12 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,493


EXTERMINATE!


« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2013, 11:54:54 AM »

I don't get it. Why would anyone want to ask us questions about dating?
I suppose you've never been in a relationship?
Logged
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,706


« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2013, 11:58:41 AM »

I don't get it. Why would anyone want to ask us questions about dating?
I suppose you've never been in a relationship?

And how is that related to my question?
Logged

On a temporary/semi-permanent/permanent vacation from OC.net.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Faith: refuse
Posts: 29,279


Mzack.


« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2013, 12:01:21 PM »

I don't get it. Why would anyone want to ask us questions about dating?

I've been asking important questions about dating for a couple years now, and have received some help, though not by the self-proclaimed expert(s). Sad
Logged
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,040



« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2013, 12:03:19 PM »

I don't get it. Why would anyone want to ask us questions about dating?
Because we are very holy and it is a blessing to receive wise counsel from the sage wisdom found here at oc.net.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,706


« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2013, 12:05:52 PM »

The sage counsel in this thread is a sure way to celibacy.
Logged

On a temporary/semi-permanent/permanent vacation from OC.net.
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.151 seconds with 72 queries.