OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 30, 2014, 07:54:55 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Coptic Christians Attacked Again  (Read 1903 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 2,200


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« on: January 26, 2005, 01:15:47 PM »


More "good news" from Egypt.  This Jim Crow stuff makes me sick.  Who do these Muslims think they are, marching on people for having Church?  And the allegedly "secular" government denying its permission for a Church to be built, because the "numbers are too few". It is obvious that indigenous Egyptians are second class citizens in their own country.

Clashes Between Egyptian Muslims and Christians Leave One Dead, 23 Detained 
 
Associated Press
December 30, 2004 
 
 
 
CAIRO, Egypt - Clashes between Muslims and Christians over claims that two brothers had opened a church in their southern Egyptian home have killed one Muslim and injured three, while 23 people have been detained, the Interior Ministry said Thursday.
The violence occurred Wednesday in Damshwai Hashim, a village in the province of Minya, where sectarian tensions have flared previously, some 220 kilometers (135 miles) south of Egypt's capital Cairo.

Authorities imposed a curfew over the village early Thursday and deployed hundreds of police, who patrolled the streets and blocked roads leading into the town over fears that violence could flare again.

The Interior Ministry said in a statement that the violence started after a rumor spread through the village that two Coptic Christian brothers had turned their house into a church and urged Copts to pray inside.

The statement said 200 Muslim villagers marched on the house, hurling stones at it before trying to storm the dwelling.

Security guards employed by local authorities intervened and fired rifles into the air while trying to disperse the crowd, but mistakenly killed an 18-year-old Muslim student Mohammed Mohsen Qassem and injured three others, the statement said.

Police also arrested 23 Muslims and Christians.

Residents in the Muslim-majority village say local Copts have grown angry since authorities last year rejected their demand to build a church, apparently because their numbers were too few. Christian villagers must travel to a nearby village to attend church services.

The violence followed clashes between Copts and security forces earlier this month at a Coptic Cathedral in Cairo during demonstrations against the reported kidnapping of a priest's wife who was forced to convert to Islam.

Coptic Christians comprise about 10 percent of Egypt's 70 million people, making them the largest Christian minority in the Middle East. While Egyptian authorities say the country's Muslims and Christians live in relative harmony, many Copts complain of discrimination in this Muslim-dominated country.

During an Islamic insurrection in Egypt in the early 1990s, Copts were occasionally attacked by Muslim militants. In 2000, Christian-Muslim clashes in southern Egypt killed 23 people, all but two of them Copts.
Logged

"According to the Orthodox Faith, the teachings and traditions one upholds and believes in will necessarily influence and inform one's spiritual orientation and the way one worships..." - Harry Boosalis
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 17,945


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2005, 01:37:10 PM »

Lord, have mercy. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
Stavro
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,219



« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2005, 01:59:56 PM »

Indeed, Lord have mercy. The situation is not promising at all in Egypt, and what is pathetic in the same time is the fact that one can only pray that the situation, as bad as it is, does not become worse and worse. I do not understand the policy of the government at all. After giving up the control of the street and media, gladly, to the militants, they have only to fear for themselves. They do not stop at being the side kick of the show, they seek control and full power without compromise. Pretending otherwise is just a step, and those who read the islamic history and "legislations" and are learnt about the approach to power by the late leaders of the islamic brotherhood and Jihad groups can see through such scheme.

Late President Saddat was the first to adopt such a policy and appeased the islamic groups on the expense of security and Copts and gave them full control of universities,unions,media, youth camps and their crimes against Copts ,burning down the churches (1971, 1972, 1975,1977, 1979, 1980, 1981,...) and killing coptic business men and investors, went unpunished.The militants returned the favor by killing him as their first political prey Ironically, it came after Saddat imprisoned Pope Shenouda and the majority of the Holy Synod and the leaders of the Coptic Church and tried to bring appoint a Pope of his own. God used them to devise the plans of Saddat, just stressing again the fundamental universal rule: You reap what you sow, and that the Gates of Hell will not prevail and anybody who tries to tear the Church apart will be torn himself ( for example, Arius), literally, in pieces. The assassination of Saddat was very cruel indeed, without going into details.

" Those who do not read history are condemned to repeat its mistakes" (Santyana)
Logged

In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2005, 02:13:12 PM »

"Religion of Peace"...my Big Fat Greek Butt
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
SaintShenouti
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 224


« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2005, 04:42:32 PM »

Reminiscing on the Coptic revolt of the ninth century...
Logged
Ibrahim
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 64


« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2005, 06:20:37 PM »

The Egyptian government is one of the most backward Arab governments. My visit there gave me the impression that the "progress" often attributed to Sadat/Mubarak is highly overrated, especially from a Syrian Christian point of view. It is foolish to compromise with Islamic militants. In Syria we did it the less "humane" way, just flatten them. But, things for Christians and other religious minorities including Shia and Druze are much better for it. In Syria, often the government pays for Christian works and encourages them to take part in society. I have read that in Egypt one needs special permission to build or repair a church and that it cannot be close to a mosque. What is the reasoning for this? Why does the government there endulge bigotry?
Logged

At any rate, I do not believe that there is a man in the USA who accepts to live in illusion who says that peace will be recognized between the Arabs and Israel even if the occupation of the occupied Arab territories does not come to an end.
The late
Stavro
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,219



« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2005, 04:37:19 PM »

No progress was made on the interior side in Egypt under both presidents, but Mubarak is better than Saddat. Saddat, who is hailed in the West as a moderate to progressive president because of his deal with Israel, was in the 30's,40's and 50's part of the Islamic brotherhood and had been captured many times and jailed for his work against the King, when we had one before 1952. In 1956, and it is recorded and well documented, Saddat was head of the Islamic union conference and he said that he will work hard to empty Egypt from the Copts. His own words. When eh came to power in 1970, he worked hard on that by giving enormous power to the islamic militant. His goal was to destruct the strong socialist party and gain ground and also prepare for the destruction of the Church.

Many crimes went unpunished , and often hailed. Egypt, which was one of the progressive countries in the 40's and 50's and most of the 60's, became an the source for islamic fundamentalism with Islamic Brotherhood, Jihad, Takfeer and Hegra movements. The media was very sympathetic to their cause, and it became a propaganda machine for them.

But as I said before, Saddat was the first one to be killed by them. To appease them, after he arrested some of the leaders of the Islamic brotherhood who plotted to kill him in 1981, he arrested Pope Shenouda and most of the members of the Holy Synod, the Bishops, and the most prominent priests and COptic leaders. 30 days later he was assassinated on the celebration day of the victory. The details of his injuries are plain horrible.

Ibrahim,
welcome to the site. Syria is a special case in the Middle East, together with lebanon, when it comes to religious tolerance, and so was Iraq before the War. There is no humane way to deal with terror and with crime, there is only justice to be done.

Logged

In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)
Ibrahim
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 64


« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2005, 04:57:24 PM »

Thank you for the information Stavro. I had not heard that Sadat was unpopular with the Copts until this summer when I spoke with a Coptic fellow at the summer school I went to (he is very old) but I never knew why. I have heard many things such as "Christians in Egypt like him because he was weak to Israel" and such but that is untrue I can see as he was trying to empty them from their home! I might disagree with you on Lebanon being tolorant. I mean, they have basically caps on how far people from different religions can get in government. If you are Greek you can only eb foreign minister. If you are Druze it is less than that. Only Maronites can be at the top. IT is so unfair especially since they are not a majority. It is almost like South Africa. Not to mention they were talking about killing off the Muslims and the Muslims were talking about killing of the Maronites. I mean, I always hear people say how tolorant Lebanon is but it is hard to imagine with such a government, you know? Iraq was according to many people I know a wonderful place before they started going to war all over the place. Like, they had many benefits and they were very harmonious. Even in Syria, we (as in Christians) cannot become the leader of our country because the president must be a Muslim (Hafez al Asad had to get Sadr of Lebanon to say Alawis were Muslim just to become president/to stop rioting). I cannot understand why the governments indulge the bigotry of such groups like Muslim Brothers and especially Takfeer. What horrible people. They even kill their own (like Shia) for not being the "right kind of Muslim". That is why Sadat got killed (he was a 'bad Muslim') and why they tried to kill Asad and other leaders. I don't understand how someone could support them, look what they do in Algeria and Iraq. They don't care about anybody. I guess with Sadat, he lived by the gun of the extremist and died by it as well.
Logged

At any rate, I do not believe that there is a man in the USA who accepts to live in illusion who says that peace will be recognized between the Arabs and Israel even if the occupation of the occupied Arab territories does not come to an end.
The late
Stavro
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,219



« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2005, 05:58:07 PM »

Dear ibrahim,

Saddat is very unpopular on both sides, islamic side and christian side in Egypt. Muslims dislike him for his peace treaty with Israel, which is a major offense against Islam. Copts do not like him because he supported the fundamentalists after Nasser destroyed them he revived their presence in the street, and for his persecution of the Hierarchs. After having the West on his side, he was ready for the worst kind of human right violations against the COpts, but his life was luckily cut short.
The problem in Egypt is not so much the government oppression, as bad as it is in terms of not allowing to build churches, not protecting christians from discrimination , but the problem is in the street and the fundamentalists influence on all aspects of life. No chance for any moderate view, for they are assassinated with support from the people.

As for Lebanon, I disagree. It is all relative, but it is the only liberal (politically) place. The conditions have became worse since the rise of the Hezbullah, supported by Iran, and their control on the South, but still, christian are not persecuted. As for Syria, you must know better the situation there. I got this impression from a Syrian friend (atheist in heart) who told me that Jews are still in Syria, and so are many factions of Islam like Shia's and Druz,and living peacefully, which is not possible in other countries. Of course, being there is different than just hearing about it.

 


Logged

In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)
Ibrahim
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 64


« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2005, 06:57:54 PM »

On Syria it is very true that we have many groups living together without the problems in other places. This is because it is very ethnically homogenous except for soem areas (where there are Armenians and Kurds) but they mostly keep to themselves. The Ba'th has been very good to Christians in Syria (it was founded by a Christian) and to other minorities (it started out with mostly Christians and minority Muslims like Alawis and Shia and then became more popular as time went on). It is not popular with everyone though and many people dislike it for reasons like lack of free speech and economic freedom (standard problems of dictorship). Many of the Sunni resent the government because there are many Alawis in it. Sunna are the majority and some of them feel left out but there are many Sunnis in government (many minorities are overrepresented in government and business especially Christians and Alawis). The Kurds dislike the government very much because they feel it is very favoritist towards Arabs (which it is) and they are less organized than other groups, similar to Iraq with less unity among them. Over all I think people abroad play up Syria's problems to much. We are not like Iraq at all. We are not perfect but we do what we can and it's not like we have the makings of a hoyl war brewing or anything. It would be hard to divide Syria because relations with all the groups ahve gotten nothing but better (except the Kurds) and there is much "group feeling" with Syrians. Lots of people think the Ba'th is some kind of Arab Nazi Party for the elimination of Kurds andChristians, mostly because of Saddam Hussien but I think Syria is closest to the Ba'th (revival) ideals than Iraq ever was. It is true we have Jews still as well. Mostly in a couple of small villages in the countryside and some tiny groups in Damascus and Allepo. Allepo is nice. THere are lots of Christians and Armenians and some Jews and Muslims. Very diverse. I think overall because we have been led by nationalist minority (Alawi Ba'thists) who were alienated historically it was better for minorities (they tried to "undo" the wrongs from the past). I think Christians are like 15% of Syria that is what was when we left I believe. The government wouldn't be able to ignore us like in other countries, theres too many of us to!
The government can be overbarring also though (we only have one news agency except for what you can get secretly which is usually allowed) espeically to Lebanon. Some older people say we should take off the borders from Lebanon and just have Syria. We initially went in on behalf of the Maronites (which is rather ironic because now they want us out the most!) I agree that Lebanon is the only liberal place in our region though. That is why so many people go there for university and to make careers.
Logged

At any rate, I do not believe that there is a man in the USA who accepts to live in illusion who says that peace will be recognized between the Arabs and Israel even if the occupation of the occupied Arab territories does not come to an end.
The late
Stavro
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,219



« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2005, 07:30:07 PM »

Hi Ibrahim,
thanks for the insight on Syria. It seems that you live in the environment Egypt adopted as well in the 50's and 60's, when our countries both united and then split, but you kept it till now. The idea is more of Arabic nationalism, and not necessarily islamic fundamentalism, and I find it ironic because Micheal Aflak, the founder of Ba'th, was not arabic himself. Problem is that it leads after a while into Islamic fundamentalism, for both are closely connected.

I understand that it is a dictatorship, and we have it too. But democracy is not the solution as well, for if a free election is performed in Egypt, at least 80% will vote for fundamentalists. Maybe Iraq qon't necessarily turn out that way, but Egypt is very much different. Most christians in the Middle East would fare better under a dictator, who crushes any opposition and among them the islamic movement, rather than under islamic rule, who are dictators (ye7kum be'amr allah) rulers with divine authority as they claim. No real difference.

In Algeria, in the early 90's. a free election was performed, and islamists won. ALgeria is the country that was most influenced by the Franch colonization and they do not even speak arabic, but french, and are mostly french in culture. So what about countries that are very fundamentalist in nature, like Egypt, Saudi,... ?
Ironic thing is that the US was the driving force behind supporting the islamic movement in Egypt to root out the communism. And I believe till now, they do not really have a clear idea about the dynamics of the Middle Eastern street. For it is more wise to keep dictators rather than to allow democracy, unless this is only a slogan to rally the people but in reality, it is a directed scene to get a friendly regime in these countries. Only time will tell where the truth is.

Lord Have mercy. 
Logged

In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)
Ibrahim
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 64


« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2005, 08:17:17 PM »

Quote
The idea is more of Arabic nationalism, and not necessarily islamic fundamentalism, and I find it ironic because Micheal Aflak, the founder of Ba'th, was not arabic himself

I think this is why it "worked" more in Syria than Egypt. In Egypt, and much of N. Africa Arab and Muslim are the same. Here, we Islam just as religion and Arab as an ethnic group. Like, we are mostly all Arab in terms of language and culture but we differ in religion. That is the idea behind the Ba'th. I can see why Aflaq and other Christians would take it up, because it gave them a place in the whole of society on the inside rather than out and made us equal (at least in theory) to Muslims. The Ba'th even considers Somalis and people from Djibouti to be Arab. We used to watch NAsser in class for school and I remmeber once he said (about UAR) that "this is a nation where the language is Arabic and the religion is Islam". That is where Nasserism (Egyptian pan Arabism) and the Ba'th (more European influence pan Arabism as in Arab ethnicity regaurdless of religion) differ the most. Algeria was Nasserist in ideology and so is Libya, they see Islam as integral to being Arab. Iraq and Syria are Ba'thist where any religion can be Arab (everybody but jews in practice really). The Ba'th was made to be inclusive of minorities. I agree that it runs into funadamentalism. They are essentially the same "problem" but with a different solution. In Arab nationalism Arabs are backward/oppressed because we are against each other and are divided as Arabs and religion is what separates and while important is not as important as unity. In fundamentalism we are this way because God (of the Qur'an) is mad because we didn't keep on his path. So one solution is unity and cooperation as Arabs and the other is cooperation through ISlam and violent conversion (making everyone Salaf). Even the Ba'th has Islam in it. Aflaq said "Muhammed was the epitome of all Arabs so let all Arabs be Muhammed". It made Muhammed a revolutionary figure (the black on the flag is for Muhammed) and Islam the expression of ARab glory (because Arabs had so much conquest with it and initially tolorance). both of them want to go back to the same time, a time of Arabo-Islamic glory but have different reasons why that existed and how to go back to it. It also leads to other bad things. Like other nationalism it also hurts minorities like Kurds and Maronites and Berbers because it is saying all of N. Africa and Middle East is "Arab". I support Berbers in Morocco andKurds in Iraq because they are majority in their regions and they deserve to have control of themselves like Arabs do. It also makes people less prone to stand up for non ARabs(ie Sudan). I have always wondered what Copts thought of Nasser. Were they supportive of him? Did they favor Farouk before?

Quote
I understand that it is a dictatorship, and we have it too. But democracy is not the solution as well, for if a free election is performed in Egypt, at least 80% will vote for fundamentalists. Maybe Iraq qon't necessarily turn out that way, but Egypt is very much different. Most christians in the Middle East would fare better under a dictator, who crushes any opposition and among them the islamic movement, rather than under islamic rule, who are dictators (ye7kum be'amr allah) rulers with divine authority as they claim. No real difference.
This true. I would prefer a secular dictator than an Islamic state. I prefer poor Syria to rich Saudi Arabia.

Quote
In Algeria, in the early 90's. a free election was performed, and islamists won. ALgeria is the country that was most influenced by the Franch colonization and they do not even speak arabic, but french, and are mostly french in culture. So what about countries that are very fundamentalist in nature, like Egypt, Saudi,... ?

They speak Arabic in Algeria. Some regions they speak berber and lots of old people speak French (especially government people) but most young people speak Arabic because the government wanted to Arabize the country to make unity and get rid of France. This has made trouble for the bebers. I know that now peple have moved away from Islamism because the GIA/FIS showed their true colors. They killed old women and babies and such for no reason. Massacres all over the place so people are pretty secular or moderate there. My dad used to work there in the 80s when they were gaining support and he just got back from visiting there last year and he says nobody likes them anymore. The Salafists alientated themselves like the Mullahs in Iran. When people really see what the Islamists are up to, they change their mind quickly I think.

Quote
Ironic thing is that the US was the driving force behind supporting the islamic movement in Egypt to root out the communism
Afrer the massacre at Hama in Syria the government found American serial numbers on almost all the weapons from the MuslimBrotherhood. The Us still deneys they helped but everyone knows they did. Just like they do in Saudi. They wanted Asad out so they helped the worst of the worst. I think it would be hardfor the communists in the middle east anyway. People were so paranoid back then, that is why we united with Egypt because Nasser was good at killing commies lol. I think that there has been only one ARab state that has been communist (kind of half of one) and the communists here (Syria) are jut a bunch of old guys should tell them somthing. The CP here is 2nd biggest but was only alowed because lots of them spoke Russian and could help get weapons I think.

I will continue to pray for the Coptic brothers.
Logged

At any rate, I do not believe that there is a man in the USA who accepts to live in illusion who says that peace will be recognized between the Arabs and Israel even if the occupation of the occupied Arab territories does not come to an end.
The late
Tags: persecution Coptic Orthodox Church Islam 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.067 seconds with 38 queries.