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« on: June 26, 2013, 12:48:14 PM »

Is it considered a sin to not have children? I am talking about a married couple actually deciding to not have any versus not being able to.

Just wondering. Huh
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« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2013, 01:32:29 PM »

I hesitate to generalise an answer for things like this.  The married couple in question ought to honestly discuss their reasons for not wanting children with each other and with their priest and take it from there.  If it came up before the marriage, and it probably should've, it should've been discussed with the priest.   
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« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2013, 02:43:04 PM »

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« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2013, 02:48:52 PM »

I hear a lot of invective all around against 'selfish' people who don't want their lifestyles cramped by the vagaries of childrearing. I suppose such people exist, or the term 'child-free' wouldn't have been coined, but I haven't met any myself. All the willingly childless people I know made a hard decision based on health reasons, whether those involved hereditary disorders or advancing age, and I for one can't blame them for being responsible.
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« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2013, 02:51:31 PM »

All the willingly childless people I know made a hard decision based on health reasons, whether those involved hereditary disorders or advancing age, and I for one can't blame them for being responsible.
The OP said people who chose to not have kids versus not being able to.
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« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2013, 02:53:59 PM »

I had two relatives that never had kids because they didn't want it to interfere with their hobbies and ability to travel. Both of them were very selfish people in general.  I think having kids is the best way to learn selflessness.  Not that I am great at being selfless, but looking back at my life before kids, I was incredibly self-absorbed.
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« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2013, 02:55:06 PM »

Rebecca, I'd second Mor's comment as it's definitely something they should take up with their priest. Especially if it's not for health concerns, like Arachne mentioned.

I hear a lot of invective all around against 'selfish' people who don't want their lifestyles cramped by the vagaries of childrearing. I suppose such people exist, or the term 'child-free' wouldn't have been coined, but I haven't met any myself. All the willingly childless people I know made a hard decision based on health reasons, whether those involved hereditary disorders or advancing age, and I for one can't blame them for being responsible.

I've met some, and generally they've emphasized their careers and comfort above all else, often even over their spouse. I've known of a couple women in such relationships to reach their 40's or 50's and realize they want suddenly want to bear a child. You can imagine the problems they have then...
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« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2013, 02:55:46 PM »

I hear a lot of invective all around against 'selfish' people who don't want their lifestyles cramped by the vagaries of childrearing. I suppose such people exist, or the term 'child-free' wouldn't have been coined, but I haven't met any myself. All the willingly childless people I know made a hard decision based on health reasons, whether those involved hereditary disorders or advancing age, and I for one can't blame them for being responsible.

You assume choice is some subjective act.

I am sure many here will be running in to correct that notion.
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« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2013, 02:57:19 PM »

All the willingly childless people I know made a hard decision based on health reasons, whether those involved hereditary disorders or advancing age, and I for one can't blame them for being responsible.
The OP said people who chose to not have kids versus not being able to.

Yes, and that's what I said as well.
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« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2013, 02:57:55 PM »

All the willingly childless people I know made a hard decision based on health reasons, whether those involved hereditary disorders or advancing age, and I for one can't blame them for being responsible.
The OP said people who chose to not have kids versus not being able to.

It is nearly functionally impossible not to be able to care for children. While adoption has grown difficult in America thanks to racism and the reverse identity politics of minorities, being de facto adoptive parent by being a foster parent for a kid is not that difficult to finagle.
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« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2013, 03:01:06 PM »

All the willingly childless people I know made a hard decision based on health reasons, whether those involved hereditary disorders or advancing age, and I for one can't blame them for being responsible.
The OP said people who chose to not have kids versus not being able to.

Yes, and that's what I said as well.
If one is married and chooses to not have kids for a reason other than serious financial difficulties (i.e. college) or medical reasons, it is selfish.
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« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2013, 03:04:03 PM »

I don't know, but I feel like attacking the high horse that parents with kids like to stand on. You always act as if you are doing some grand, selfless act for the world by bearing children and raising them, accusing those who choose not to have children of being "selfish," but, what does it matter? You are not doing the world a favor at all by having children; in fact, you're just further draining the world of its resources and allowing another kid to be stuck in an orphanage for a longer time. No one is forcing you to have children and no one is getting hurt by your not having children. Step off and pull yourself out of your stupid persecuted person complex. You only had children for your own selfish reasons; you aren't helping anyone else by having them.
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« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2013, 03:06:56 PM »

If you wanted to predict the number of children someone would have in their life at birth, it wouldn't be difficult.

I think this hand-wringing over is x a sin is always going to be flawed from an Orthodox perspective as I understand it.

Just as I think it is equally flawed to resign oneself to the opinions of whatever Priest runs the parish you happen attend.

Most people do not have children or many, simply to enjoy their privileged status more and to help guarantee the one or maybe two kids they do have are able to enjoy further privilege.

People from lower socioeconomic classes within the First World and those from the developing world simply don't have the neurotic hang-up about kids that middle and upper class folks do.

Just walk around my neighborhood. Pregnant at 14? NBD. No books. No sweating getting Mozart into the crib's loudspeaker ASAP. If a couple isn't having five to six children, there is something medically wrong or they are being selfish.

I mean where I work people actually still budget for their kids' education before they are born. LOL.

Now, you can certainly have five to six children for selfish reasons as well.

Anyhoo. Enjoy your selfish lives. It's OK. There are worse ways to be self-consumed.



 
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« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2013, 03:07:54 PM »

All the willingly childless people I know made a hard decision based on health reasons, whether those involved hereditary disorders or advancing age, and I for one can't blame them for being responsible.
The OP said people who chose to not have kids versus not being able to.

Yes, and that's what I said as well.
If one is married and chooses to not have kids for a reason other than serious financial difficulties (i.e. college) or medical reasons, it is selfish.

Those are selfish as well.

Please. College?Huh??
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« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2013, 03:08:18 PM »

I don't know, but I feel like attacking the high horse that parents with kids like to stand on. You always act as if you are doing some grand, selfless act for the world by bearing children and raising them, accusing those who choose not to have children of being "selfish," but, what does it matter? You are not doing the world a favor at all by having children; in fact, you're just further draining the world of its resources and allowing another kid to be stuck in an orphanage for a longer time. No one is forcing you to have children and no one is getting hurt by your not having children. Step off and pull yourself out of your stupid persecuted person complex. You only had children for your own selfish reasons; you aren't helping anyone else by having them.
LOL, Oh James, you are priceless!  Roll Eyes

I don't think that the act of not having kids is selfish, I think it is a symptom of selfishness. There are of course many selfless childless people and many selfish people with children, but if one is selfish, having kids will often remedy that quickly. I think having children is the single greatest thing you can do for personal character growth and maturing.
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« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2013, 03:13:07 PM »

I don't know, but I feel like attacking the high horse that parents with kids like to stand on. You always act as if you are doing some grand, selfless act for the world by bearing children and raising them, accusing those who choose not to have children of being "selfish," but, what does it matter? You are not doing the world a favor at all by having children; in fact, you're just further draining the world of its resources and allowing another kid to be stuck in an orphanage for a longer time. No one is forcing you to have children and no one is getting hurt by your not having children. Step off and pull yourself out of your stupid persecuted person complex. You only had children for your own selfish reasons; you aren't helping anyone else by having them.
LOL, Oh James, you are priceless!  Roll Eyes

I don't think that the act of not having kids is selfish, I think it is a symptom of selfishness. There are of course many selfless childless people and many selfish people with children, but if one is selfish, having kids will often remedy that quickly. I think having children is the single greatest thing you can do for personal character growth and maturing.

Actually JamesR has a point.

Anyone who is serious about idiotic stuff like recycling, should not have kids. Can you imagine the sheer energy that goes into a kid in the First World. Then their kids, etc?

If you want to get serious about putting about conservation forget the hybrid, go with the vasectomy.

You can still help care for children without having your genes pass on.

Now as a matter of fatwa, I pronounce it is an incredible sin to use medical technology beyond a turkey baster to have child and a moderate one for importing a child.

Kids are everywhere. Go care for one or two. You don't need an HMO or Delta to find them.
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« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2013, 03:13:25 PM »

...if one is selfish, having kids will often remedy that quickly.

Or make it worse

Then the selfish person has a slave they could boss around and force to do their chores so they could be even selfish-er (if that's even a word) and if they are lucky, reap the welfare, tax deductions, and child support. I hate to shatter your romanticist notions about the grandness of having children, but that's just the way it is.

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...I think having children is the single greatest thing you can do for personal character growth and maturing.

Sounds selfish to me; having children for your own development.
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« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2013, 03:19:46 PM »

I don't know, but I feel like attacking the high horse that parents with kids like to stand on. You always act as if you are doing some grand, selfless act for the world by bearing children and raising them, accusing those who choose not to have children of being "selfish," but, what does it matter? You are not doing the world a favor at all by having children; in fact, you're just further draining the world of its resources and allowing another kid to be stuck in an orphanage for a longer time. No one is forcing you to have children and no one is getting hurt by your not having children. Step off and pull yourself out of your stupid persecuted person complex. You only had children for your own selfish reasons; you aren't helping anyone else by having them.
LOL, Oh James, you are priceless!  Roll Eyes

I don't think that the act of not having kids is selfish, I think it is a symptom of selfishness. There are of course many selfless childless people and many selfish people with children, but if one is selfish, having kids will often remedy that quickly. I think having children is the single greatest thing you can do for personal character growth and maturing.

Actually JamesR has a point.

Anyone who is serious about idiotic stuff like recycling, should not have kids. Can you imagine the sheer energy that goes into a kid in the First World. Then their kids, etc?

If you want to get serious about putting about conservation forget the hybrid, go with the vasectomy.

You can still help care for children without having your genes pass on.

Now as a matter of fatwa, I pronounce it is an incredible sin to use medical technology beyond a turkey baster to have child and a moderate one for importing a child.

Kids are everywhere. Go care for one or two. You don't need an HMO or Delta to find them.
just a lawyer and a bank account big enough for his retainer to legitimize the whole thing.

There is a direct relationship between selfishness and the closer one shoots for the yuppy mean of 2.2 kids. The only thing worse than having no children is having just enough to live vicariously through/get the whole package deal.

James should preach to the government of Europe, and Canada-they are trying to bribe people into having them.
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« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2013, 03:22:24 PM »

...if one is selfish, having kids will often remedy that quickly.

Or make it worse

Then the selfish person has a slave they could boss around and force to do their chores so they could be even selfish-er (if that's even a word) and if they are lucky, reap the welfare, tax deductions, and child support. I hate to shatter your romanticist notions about the grandness of having children, but that's just the way it is.
I suppose that there are people out there like that, but MOST people sacrifice far more for their kids than their children ever realize. (At least until they have their own kids and realize what all goes into it)  If you want someone to boss around, hire a maid, so much cheaper than kids, and you don't have to change their diapers non-stop for the first two years of them being in your house.

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...I think having children is the single greatest thing you can do for personal character growth and maturing.

Sounds selfish to me; having children for your own development.
I don't think that is WHY you should have kids, but it is certainly a benefit that one gets from rearing children.
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« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2013, 03:23:09 PM »

I don't know, but I feel like attacking the high horse that parents with kids like to stand on. You always act as if you are doing some grand, selfless act for the world by bearing children and raising them, accusing those who choose not to have children of being "selfish," but, what does it matter? You are not doing the world a favor at all by having children; in fact, you're just further draining the world of its resources and allowing another kid to be stuck in an orphanage for a longer time. No one is forcing you to have children and no one is getting hurt by your not having children. Step off and pull yourself out of your stupid persecuted person complex. You only had children for your own selfish reasons; you aren't helping anyone else by having them.
LOL, Oh James, you are priceless!  Roll Eyes

I don't think that the act of not having kids is selfish, I think it is a symptom of selfishness. There are of course many selfless childless people and many selfish people with children, but if one is selfish, having kids will often remedy that quickly. I think having children is the single greatest thing you can do for personal character growth and maturing.

Actually JamesR has a point.

Anyone who is serious about idiotic stuff like recycling, should not have kids. Can you imagine the sheer energy that goes into a kid in the First World. Then their kids, etc?

If you want to get serious about putting about conservation forget the hybrid, go with the vasectomy.

You can still help care for children without having your genes pass on.

Now as a matter of fatwa, I pronounce it is an incredible sin to use medical technology beyond a turkey baster to have child and a moderate one for importing a child.

Kids are everywhere. Go care for one or two. You don't need an HMO or Delta to find them.
just a lawyer and a bank account big enough for his retainer to legitimize the whole thing.

There is a direct relationship between selfishness and the closer one shoots for the yuppy mean of 2.2 kids. The only thing worse than having no children is having just enough to live vicariously through/get the whole package deal.

James should preach to the government of Europe, and Canada-they are trying to bribe people into having them.

Don't forget Japan.

People really can't imagine how not xenophobic the US is till they live elsewhere for a considerable amount of time.

There is a weird disconnect, especially in Europe, compared to here, but I don't have the time right now to get into it.
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« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2013, 03:24:37 PM »

I hate to shatter your romanticist notions about the grandness of having children, but that's just the way it is.

Ah! Experience! That most noble of teachers.
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« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2013, 03:27:45 PM »

Don't forget Japan.

People really can't imagine how not xenophobic the US is till they live elsewhere for a considerable amount of time.

I haven't lived in Japan or anything, but this is one thing I hear commonly from those that do (results varying, of course). Japanese often really don't like non-Japanese. They sometimes have open discrimination in their store signs even ("No Americans," etc.).

I had a friend that was Brazilian living in Japan, and he could only work night stocking shifts since the Japanese customers wouldn't want to interact with a Brazilian during the day. He described at some length how poorly he was treated by the Japanese in general, although he did have some good relations with some Japanese.
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« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2013, 03:37:32 PM »

One cannot even begin to understand the compassion, the emptying of self, the denial of self in what Christ did for us and for our salvation until he/she has become a parent. 

Those are not my words, but the words of a priest. 

We do not beget children merely because were biologically programmed to do so (even though we are), nor merely because of God's commands (though we are), nor because it's economically beneficial to society (though it is), nor because it prevents society from dieing out (though it does), but because as a husband and a wife are called to die to each other for Christ's sake as the martyrs did and is understood as a sacrament, so the begetting of a child brings us further along in that mystery--to die to self, to carry the cross and follow our Lord.  There is suffering in having children, but great joy.  And I can say this after being a parent for only one year.
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« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2013, 03:40:38 PM »

Sounds selfish to me; having children for your own development.

With that logic, becoming Orthodox is selfish.  Joining a church to come into communion with our Lord and to develop into a true human being really is selfish.
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« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2013, 04:01:00 PM »

Sounds selfish to me; having children for your own development.

With that logic, becoming Orthodox is selfish.  Joining a church to come into communion with our Lord and to develop into a true human being really is selfish.

It is; I'm not denying it.

Oh no, it's my inner Ayn Rand coming out
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« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2013, 04:26:34 PM »

Sounds selfish to me; having children for your own development.

With that logic, becoming Orthodox is selfish.  Joining a church to come into communion with our Lord and to develop into a true human being really is selfish.

It probably nearly always is.
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« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2013, 04:28:14 PM »

One cannot even begin to understand the compassion, the emptying of self, the denial of self in what Christ did for us and for our salvation until he/she has become a parent. 

Those are not my words, but the words of a priest. 

We do not beget children merely because were biologically programmed to do so (even though we are), nor merely because of God's commands (though we are), nor because it's economically beneficial to society (though it is), nor because it prevents society from dieing out (though it does), but because as a husband and a wife are called to die to each other for Christ's sake as the martyrs did and is understood as a sacrament, so the begetting of a child brings us further along in that mystery--to die to self, to carry the cross and follow our Lord.  There is suffering in having children, but great joy.  And I can say this after being a parent for only one year.

Oh this is rich.

Yes, doing what nearly everyone else in society does, Christian or not, is "death".
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« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2013, 04:30:25 PM »

My pre-school son is in the process of a full blown temper tantrum replete with screaming and an Oscar winning dramatic. I selfishly NEED him to go to bed for the good of my future sanity. Mercy!
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« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2013, 04:31:23 PM »

One cannot even begin to understand the compassion, the emptying of self, the denial of self in what Christ did for us and for our salvation until he/she has become a parent. 

Those are not my words, but the words of a priest. 

We do not beget children merely because were biologically programmed to do so (even though we are), nor merely because of God's commands (though we are), nor because it's economically beneficial to society (though it is), nor because it prevents society from dieing out (though it does), but because as a husband and a wife are called to die to each other for Christ's sake as the martyrs did and is understood as a sacrament, so the begetting of a child brings us further along in that mystery--to die to self, to carry the cross and follow our Lord.  There is suffering in having children, but great joy.  And I can say this after being a parent for only one year.

Cue those who exalt monasticism above married life in 3....2....
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« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2013, 04:35:48 PM »

One cannot even begin to understand the compassion, the emptying of self, the denial of self in what Christ did for us and for our salvation until he/she has become a parent. 

Those are not my words, but the words of a priest. 

We do not beget children merely because were biologically programmed to do so (even though we are), nor merely because of God's commands (though we are), nor because it's economically beneficial to society (though it is), nor because it prevents society from dieing out (though it does), but because as a husband and a wife are called to die to each other for Christ's sake as the martyrs did and is understood as a sacrament, so the begetting of a child brings us further along in that mystery--to die to self, to carry the cross and follow our Lord.  There is suffering in having children, but great joy.  And I can say this after being a parent for only one year.

Cue those who exalt monasticism above married life in 3....2....

That's another point really driven home by having children. angel
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« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2013, 04:53:31 PM »

Cue those who exalt monasticism above married life in 3....2....

To be fair, anyone quoting the Church Fathers--excepting one or two cherry-picked quotes from St. John Chrysostom, and ignoring what he says elsewhere--will have no choice other than to go that route...
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« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2013, 05:00:37 PM »

Having children is virtuous only if you raise them to be decent people.  If they are hellions then it is a crime.
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« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2013, 05:01:04 PM »

Cue those who exalt monasticism above married life in 3....2....

To be fair, anyone quoting the Church Fathers--excepting one or two cherry-picked quotes from St. John Chrysostom, and ignoring what he says elsewhere--will have no choice other than to go that route...

The elevated view of marriage we have in the West is probably the best thing the Reformation gave the world.

Wait, did I say that?
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« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2013, 05:42:37 PM »

One cannot even begin to understand the compassion, the emptying of self, the denial of self in what Christ did for us and for our salvation until he/she has become a parent. 

Those are not my words, but the words of a priest. 

We do not beget children merely because were biologically programmed to do so (even though we are), nor merely because of God's commands (though we are), nor because it's economically beneficial to society (though it is), nor because it prevents society from dieing out (though it does), but because as a husband and a wife are called to die to each other for Christ's sake as the martyrs did and is understood as a sacrament, so the begetting of a child brings us further along in that mystery--to die to self, to carry the cross and follow our Lord.  There is suffering in having children, but great joy.  And I can say this after being a parent for only one year.

Cue those who exalt monasticism above married life in 3....2....

If married life means vacations, retirement, etc. then maybe it is pretty much a monk's life, but I thought marriage was supposed to be some sorta "death".

Vacations, health insurance, etc., sounds like what everyone else around me is scrambling for including the gays.

I gotta get with scam and Gebre to learn how to elevate my rather predictable life choices to that of some spiritual exercise so I can blog about it.
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« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2013, 06:29:17 PM »

Parenthood doesn't take the selfishness out of anyone that doesn't choose to change. There are selfish parents aplenty.

If you are too emotionally unstable to raise children, then don't do it. But if you are too emotionally unstable to raise children you likely shouldn't get married either.

If a couple actively desire to never have children, then there is a reason for it. That choice/desire can change. My husband and I initially never wanted to have children for a very stupid reason in retrospect. It is quite hilarious now really. We were both raised with all the doom and gloom end times crap. We were both convinced by our parents that the world was going to hell in a handbasket, and the end was  near. Neither of us wanted to bring children into a world that was about to end. After the turn of the millennium we both felt more comfortable with the concept, hence our eldest child (of 6) was born in 2001 Wink

So I will add that you shouldn't rear children if you are going to fill their impressionable minds with how horrible the world is. It might be fine and dandy for you as an adult to think the world is horrible. But young children become paranoid/fearful basketcases from being constantly inundated with that kind of propaganda.
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« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2013, 06:33:54 PM »

Is it considered a sin to not have children? I am talking about a married couple actually deciding to not have any versus not being able to.

Just wondering. Huh
No.  In retrospect I would not have brought a child into this craphole of a world.  Instead I would have adopted children already here in need of a loving family.  But you know what they say about hindsight.
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« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2013, 06:35:01 PM »

Kerdy, if your profile age is correct, you aren't too old to adopt or become a foster parent Smiley You are only a year older than my husband.

I would love to adopt some native children once we have a larger house. Native kids often end up in the foster care cycle because of the American Indian Adoption laws. At best siblings end up split up. Adopting some siblings would be nice.
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« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2013, 06:38:41 PM »

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The deliberate refusal of childbirth on egoistic grounds devalues marriage and is a definite sin.

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx
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« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2013, 06:40:34 PM »

Kerdy, if your profile age is correct, you aren't too old to adopt or become a foster parent Smiley You are only a year older than my husband.

I would love to adopt some native children once we have a larger house. Native kids often end up in the foster care cycle because of the American Indian Adoption laws. At best siblings end up split up. Adopting some siblings would be nice.
After having my own children, I can no longer afford to adopt.

Edit:
After my last one, I'm not sure I want anymore kids. Grin
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« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2013, 06:41:38 PM »

Foster to adopt costs nothing.
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« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2013, 06:43:10 PM »

Foster to adopt costs nothing.
True, but you can't always adopt a foster child which can be removed at any time.  I'm not sure that is good for the child, being bounced around.

Edit:
That and I'm probably going back to school within the year.
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« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2013, 06:50:01 PM »

Foster kids get bounced around mostly due to bad foster parents. Case managers like to keep kids where they are whenever possible. One family I know has 13 kids. They adopted 5 of them. 3 of the kids were adopted as teens from Liberia, 2 were foster to adopt from infancy.

There are also programs that pay for adoption. Up here there is a church that pays for adoption fees if the couple will adopt minority children. For some sick/twisted/racist reason white kids are more expensive to adopt that minorities. So the white kids are adopted before the minority kids.
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« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2013, 06:53:29 PM »

My husband had a foster brother for 15 years. He wasn't adopted officially because they didn't go thru the name change legally. Otherwise he was basically their child.
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« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2013, 06:55:12 PM »

Foster kids get bounced around mostly due to bad foster parents. Case managers like to keep kids where they are whenever possible. One family I know has 13 kids. They adopted 6 of them. 3 of the kids were adopted as teens from Liberia, 3 were foster to adopt from infancy.

There are also programs that pay for adoption. Up here there is a church that pays for adoption fees if the couple will adopt minority children. For some sick/twisted/racist reason white kids are more expensive to adopt that minorities. So the white kids are adopted before the minority kids.
Really?  That's nuts.  It should cost the same.

By today's standards, I would be considered a bad foster parent.  I believe in discipline.

So, Native American kids have it tough in adoptions?
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« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2013, 06:57:09 PM »

People from lower socioeconomic classes within the First World and those from the developing world simply don't have the neurotic hang-up about kids that middle and upper class folks do.

Just walk around my neighborhood. Pregnant at 14? NBD. No books. No sweating getting Mozart into the crib's loudspeaker ASAP. If a couple isn't having five to six children, there is something medically wrong or they are being selfish.
You know orthonorm I hear the following argument all the time: "Well if they stopped having so many kids maybe they could pull themselves out of their low socioeconomic class and better themselves".

But it seems to me even if they were to only have 1-2 or even no kids, any sort of class mobility is still futile.
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« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2013, 06:57:09 PM »

Edit:
That and I'm probably going back to school within the year.
Why? I thought you were a PI or something. Why do you need to go back to school when you are in your 50s or 60s?
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« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2013, 07:00:54 PM »

Edit:
That and I'm probably going back to school within the year.
Why? I thought you were a PI or something. Why do you need to go back to school when you are in your 50s or 60s?
Well, I'm about to retire (hopefully early) and need a different degree in order to teach.  I'm in my 40's.  It will take about three years to complete my Masters.
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« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2013, 07:02:18 PM »

The tribe has ultimate authority in the adoption of native kids. So you don't have to get just the parents to release custody, you have to get the tribe to release custody too. This is a blessing/curse. Some tribes give up those rights without issue and immediately. Others do not give that up at all, hoping and holding out for a good native family. Native children removed from their culture have a very high suicide rate. Everyone will accept that someone is black without question. If you say you are indian, they want to know what tribe....and a host of other things. When you *look* ethnic but have no connection to the tribe it is very very difficult. So having a connection with the culture is essential. For this reason many tribes will only adopt native children to enrolled natives. So the children removed end up in foster care. A good foster family will keep all the kids, but often they get bounced around a great deal. Native kids outside of the tribe tend to have a lot of behavioral issues. Western culture is a HUGE culture shock for them (I can empathize, it is for me too!). So they often get bounced about. And because non-native can't foster to adopt, they don't want to foster them.
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« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2013, 07:05:34 PM »

The tribe has ultimate authority in the adoption of native kids. So you don't have to get just the parents to release custody, you have to get the tribe to release custody too. This is a blessing/curse. Some tribes give up those rights without issue and immediately. Others do not give that up at all, hoping and holding out for a good native family. Native children removed from their culture have a very high suicide rate. Everyone will accept that someone is black without question. If you say you are indian, they want to know what tribe....and a host of other things. When you *look* ethnic but have no connection to the tribe it is very very difficult. So having a connection with the culture is essential. For this reason many tribes will only adopt native children to enrolled natives. So the children removed end up in foster care. A good foster family will keep all the kids, but often they get bounced around a great deal. Native kids outside of the tribe tend to have a lot of behavioral issues. Western culture is a HUGE culture shock for them (I can empathize, it is for me too!). So they often get bounced about. And because non-native can't foster to adopt, they don't want to foster them.
I'll PM to keep this thread on its intended path.
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« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2013, 08:02:21 PM »

I think having kids is the best way to learn selflessness.  
Also tribalism.

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« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2013, 08:49:35 PM »

I want to adopt an Asian kid who will go on to become rich and successful so that I know I'll be taken care of when I'm an old man and retire Smiley
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« Reply #51 on: June 26, 2013, 08:56:54 PM »

I want to adopt an Asian kid who will go on to become rich and successful so that I know I'll be taken care of when I'm an old man and retire Smiley
What does Asian have to do with it?
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« Reply #52 on: June 26, 2013, 09:25:01 PM »

I want to adopt an Asian kid who will go on to become rich and successful so that I know I'll be taken care of when I'm an old man and retire Smiley
What does Asian have to do with it?

Asians are smarter and harder workers than the lazy Mexicans like James. Also, an Asian kid would be one more immigrant to help make James and his kind the norm.
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« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2013, 09:49:13 PM »

Sure is a lot of baseless profiling going on here.

But, back to the thread.
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« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2013, 09:58:59 PM »

I will never be able to have children, although I wish with all of my heart that I could.  How many times it has crossed my mind!  I don't know what it is like to be a parent and I can't fathom the love a parent must feel towards their child(ren), but I imagine there is nothing like it on earth.  I have a nephew who is 4 years old and I love him more than anyone I have ever met, even my own parents.  That gives me a glimpse, but only a glimpse.  

Parenthood can be an immense blessing, but I know that it can also be a very heavy cross.  I don't know if everyone who is married is called to carry that cross.  Maybe they are.   How can one say with any amount of confidence?  And even so, how can we as sinners sit in judgment of another?  God alone knows the hearts of men.  If you ask the question for personal reasons, then I think it is more important to go to the Lord in prayer and to seek out spiritual counsel from someone with wisdom and discernment instead of seeking out the opinions of those who lack the spiritual maturity to assist you.  If you are asking out of curiosity I strongly encourage you to move away from such things as they are spiritually dangerous.  Forgive me.  

 
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« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2013, 09:59:52 PM »

A thing about not having children... there are some people who absolutely should not have them. Ever. I am one of these. From what little I can observe on the internet there are some other such people on this thread. I do not know about you in particular rebecca.ann, but please consider carefully what you do; your choice could have a significant impact on several, and a smaller impact on potentially hundreds.
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« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2013, 10:02:36 PM »

Children are an amazing and wonderful blessing, but there is SOOO much you don't know about until after you have them.  I agree with Asteriktos, give it serious, serious consideration before deciding either way.
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« Reply #57 on: June 26, 2013, 10:05:14 PM »

Bottom line is, in respect the the original question, I have seen nothing stating not having children is sinful.
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« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2013, 10:10:33 PM »

Bottom line is, in respect the the original question, I have seen nothing stating not having children is sinful.

Well, that's incorrect. I'm the only one who actually answered the OP's question with reference to the teaching of Orthodox hierarchs in reply number 37.
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« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2013, 10:14:01 PM »

Bottom line is, in respect the the original question, I have seen nothing stating not having children is sinful.

Well, that's incorrect. I'm the only one who actually answered the OP's question with reference to the teaching of Orthodox hierarchs in reply number 37.
I didn't see where it was called a sin.  Perhaps you could supply the quote.
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« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2013, 10:22:53 PM »

Bottom line is, in respect the the original question, I have seen nothing stating not having children is sinful.

Well, that's incorrect. I'm the only one who actually answered the OP's question with reference to the teaching of Orthodox hierarchs in reply number 37.
I didn't see where it was called a sin.  Perhaps you could supply the quote.
Quote
The deliberate refusal of childbirth on egoistic grounds devalues marriage and is a definite sin.

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx
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« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2013, 10:23:58 PM »

No black and white answers here. Rufus' Law: There's gotta be some ambiguity.

Just look at my own case. I'm an independent spirit with great ideas, and although I could like being married, I would probably really hate having kids. On the other hand, I am the genetic pinnacle of the universe and an only child, so it would be a disservice to the cosmos if I didn't reproduce.

And foster kids have more messed-up lives than some of the people here can evidently imagine. I applaud the initiative of anyone who gets involved with them and bow before those who can generate a positive outcome in the kids' lives.
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« Reply #62 on: June 26, 2013, 10:25:12 PM »

Bottom line is, in respect the the original question, I have seen nothing stating not having children is sinful.

Well, that's incorrect. I'm the only one who actually answered the OP's question with reference to the teaching of Orthodox hierarchs in reply number 37.
I didn't see where it was called a sin.  Perhaps you could supply the quote.
Quote
The deliberate refusal of childbirth on egoistic grounds devalues marriage and is a definite sin.

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx

And this is accepted across Orthodoxy, no exceptions, regardless of jurisdiction?  I guess my next question would be "on what authority"?

Edit:  I'm finding this more cultural than anything.  At least as of now.
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« Reply #63 on: June 26, 2013, 10:29:49 PM »

Some light reading that answers your question Wink
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« Reply #64 on: June 26, 2013, 10:37:49 PM »

http://scienceblogs.com/casaubonsbook/2013/03/12/what-foster-parents-wish-other-people-knew/

Quote
1. We’re not Freakin’ Saints.  We are doing this because it needs doing, we love kids, this is our thing.  Some of us hope to expand our families this way, some of us do it for the pleasure of having laughing young voices around, some of us are pushed into it by the children of family or friends needing care, some of us grew up around formal or informal fostering – but all of us are doing it for our own reasons BECAUSE WE LOVE IT and/or LOVE THE KIDS and WE ARE THE LUCKY ONES – we get to have these great kids in our lives.

We hate being told we must be saints or angels, because we’re doing something really ordinary and normal – that is, taking care of kids in need.  If some children showed up dirty and hungry and needing a safe place on your doorstep, you’d care for them too – we just signed up to be the doorstep they arrive at.   The idea of sainthood makes it impossible for ordinary people to do this – and the truth is the world needs more ordinary, human foster parents.   This also stinks because if we’re saints and angels, we can’t ever be jerks or human or need help, and that’s bad, because sometimes this is hard.


Quote
3. Don’t act surprised that they are nice, smart, loving, well-behaved kids. One of the corollaries of #1 is that there tends to be an implied assumption that foster kids are flawed – we must be saints because NO ONE ELSE would take these damaged, horrible kids.  Well, kids in foster care have endured a lot of trauma, and sometimes that does come with behavioral challenges, but many of the brightest, nicest, best behaved, kindest and most loving children I’ve ever met are foster kids.  They aren’t second best kids, they aren’t homicidal maniacs, and because while they are here they are MINE, they are the BEST KIDS IN THE WORLD, and yes, it does tick me off when you act surprised they are smart, sweet and loving.
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« Reply #65 on: June 26, 2013, 10:40:20 PM »

Bottom line is, in respect the the original question, I have seen nothing stating not having children is sinful.

Well, that's incorrect. I'm the only one who actually answered the OP's question with reference to the teaching of Orthodox hierarchs in reply number 37.
I didn't see where it was called a sin.  Perhaps you could supply the quote.
Quote
The deliberate refusal of childbirth on egoistic grounds devalues marriage and is a definite sin.

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx

And this is accepted across Orthodoxy, no exceptions, regardless of jurisdiction?  I guess my next question would be "on what authority"?

Most jurisdictions don't have comprehensive documents outlining their social teachings like the MP. The only other one I'm aware of (OCA) agrees. But Orthodox jurisdictions agree on matters of faith and morals (in theory, at least).
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« Reply #66 on: June 26, 2013, 10:48:18 PM »

Bottom line is, in respect the the original question, I have seen nothing stating not having children is sinful.

Well, that's incorrect. I'm the only one who actually answered the OP's question with reference to the teaching of Orthodox hierarchs in reply number 37.
I didn't see where it was called a sin.  Perhaps you could supply the quote.
Quote
The deliberate refusal of childbirth on egoistic grounds devalues marriage and is a definite sin.

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx

And this is accepted across Orthodoxy, no exceptions, regardless of jurisdiction?  I guess my next question would be "on what authority"?

Most jurisdictions don't have comprehensive documents outlining their social teachings like the MP. The only other one I'm aware of (OCA) agrees. But Orthodox jurisdictions agree on matters of faith and morals (in theory, at least).
Well... If the entire Orthodox Church doesn't accept this as its teaching...
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« Reply #67 on: June 26, 2013, 10:51:15 PM »

Bottom line is, in respect the the original question, I have seen nothing stating not having children is sinful.

Well, that's incorrect. I'm the only one who actually answered the OP's question with reference to the teaching of Orthodox hierarchs in reply number 37.
I didn't see where it was called a sin.  Perhaps you could supply the quote.
Quote
The deliberate refusal of childbirth on egoistic grounds devalues marriage and is a definite sin.

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx

And this is accepted across Orthodoxy, no exceptions, regardless of jurisdiction?  I guess my next question would be "on what authority"?

Most jurisdictions don't have comprehensive documents outlining their social teachings like the MP. The only other one I'm aware of (OCA) agrees. But Orthodox jurisdictions agree on matters of faith and morals (in theory, at least).
Well... If the entire Orthodox Church doesn't accept this as its teaching...

Where did you get that from? Both of the jurisdictions which have spoken about it have said that not having children is contrary to the sacramental nature of marriage. The other jurisdictions simply do not have comprehensive documents expounding that teaching. Your argument from silence does not prove that "the entire Orthodox Church doesn't accept this as its teaching."
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« Reply #68 on: June 26, 2013, 10:55:50 PM »

If you want to be a good parent, yes you do have to change monumentally and sacrifice a great deal. But having a child doesn't magically make everyone feel this way. A baby doesn't come to parents with a magic spell that makes them good people/christians/parents. One can most certainly stay the same after having children. Parents change because they want to be the best parents that they can. But if they don't care about the quality of parenting they provide, then they won't change.

My mother doesn't like kids. She didn't like her own kids, and she doesn't like her grandkids. Once children are old enough to do everything for themselves she is OK. She likes babies that can't talk/move/resist and older kids. Everything inbetween is just obnoxious to her. She may have changed, but she certainly didn't want to and changed right back after we all left home.

The prostitutes that lived in my last apartment liked kids, but they didn't want to change. They just left the kids to play on the shared balcony area when the johns came over, or when they wanted to get high. When they were evicted they had to scrape the apartment down to the studs and concrete because the carpet was so saturated with dog/child excrement and rotting food. When they were around their kids (and sober) they seemed to like them. But they didn't like their children enough to give them a better life.
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« Reply #69 on: June 26, 2013, 10:58:17 PM »

Let me shed a little light on this, mostly because I didn't think this thread would get past 6-7 replies. I myself have 2 children already and the man I will marry has none so it is not having children with him. We have talked about it and have highly considered not having anymore for many reasons but none of them health or age related. In time he would probably adopt them legally as his own.

The reasons are, to put it bluntly, that my kids as well as myself got out of an abusive situation. I am mostly OK and so is my youngest, but my oldest son who got the harsher end of it still has issues with his emotions and mental state. Even if he loves them as his own we would always worry if oldest son is feeling that he is not loved as much as any new children that would come even if that isn't the case and make his issues worse.

Forgive my little spill of personal details up there, but I guess you have to know to give a proper answer and not have you guys thinking I'm some selfish, not wanting kiddos freak.
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« Reply #70 on: June 26, 2013, 11:03:40 PM »

Let me shed a little light on this, mostly because I didn't think this thread would get past 6-7 replies. I myself have 2 children already and the man I will marry has none so it is not having children with him. We have talked about it and have highly considered not having anymore for many reasons but none of them health or age related. In time he would probably adopt them legally as his own.

The reasons are, to put it bluntly, that my kids as well as myself got out of an abusive situation. I am mostly OK and so is my youngest, but my oldest son who got the harsher end of it still has issues with his emotions and mental state. Even if he loves them as his own we would always worry if oldest son is feeling that he is not loved as much as any new children that would come even if that isn't the case and make his issues worse.

Forgive my little spill of personal details up there, but I guess you have to know to give a proper answer and not have you guys thinking I'm some selfish, not wanting kiddos freak.

If you decide not to have any more children, there's no problem with that.

The Church is not a population factory.
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« Reply #71 on: June 26, 2013, 11:03:50 PM »

If I were in your position I would prevent, but not do anything permanent in case you change your mind. I have empathy for you and your kids. My mother had her tubes tied because she didn't want more kids. She regretted that decision later on. You can't know with certainty how you/your son/husband will feel about the subject a year from now. So don't close the door and nail it shut. One of the things about being a woman is that we have a limited number of years in which we can have children. At some point the decision will be made for you.
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« Reply #72 on: June 26, 2013, 11:19:58 PM »

If I were in your position I would prevent, but not do anything permanent in case you change your mind. I have empathy for you and your kids. My mother had her tubes tied because she didn't want more kids. She regretted that decision later on. You can't know with certainty how you/your son/husband will feel about the subject a year from now. So don't close the door and nail it shut. One of the things about being a woman is that we have a limited number of years in which we can have children. At some point the decision will be made for you.

I have no plans on doing anything permanent like that, but as you said just prevent. If things change then I would of course love more children.
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« Reply #73 on: June 26, 2013, 11:43:28 PM »

Random internet people: It's okay.

Actual Orthodox bishops: It's not okay.
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« Reply #74 on: June 26, 2013, 11:50:07 PM »

This random internet person knows Orthodox couples that have chosen not to have children. She already has children. I didn't say *how* she should prevent. Obviously I am no expert at preventing given my family size. laugh Shocked Grin
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« Reply #75 on: June 26, 2013, 11:54:12 PM »

This random internet person knows Orthodox couples that have chosen not to have children.

I know an Orthodox guy who thinks that Jews control the US.
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« Reply #76 on: June 27, 2013, 12:14:48 AM »

If I were in your position I would prevent, but not do anything permanent in case you change your mind. I have empathy for you and your kids. My mother had her tubes tied because she didn't want more kids. She regretted that decision later on. You can't know with certainty how you/your son/husband will feel about the subject a year from now. So don't close the door and nail it shut. One of the things about being a woman is that we have a limited number of years in which we can have children. At some point the decision will be made for you.

I have no plans on doing anything permanent like that, but as you said just prevent. If things change then I would of course love more children.

Just so you know, some of the people on this forum have really odd views about certain topics. I myself hold some odd views, but they are of a different ilk.

In real life, I can't think of single Orthodox family that has more than three children...maybe one that has four. Sounds typical of the middle class.
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« Reply #77 on: June 27, 2013, 12:20:29 AM »

Bottom line is, in respect the the original question, I have seen nothing stating not having children is sinful.

Well, that's incorrect. I'm the only one who actually answered the OP's question with reference to the teaching of Orthodox hierarchs in reply number 37.
I didn't see where it was called a sin.  Perhaps you could supply the quote.
Quote
The deliberate refusal of childbirth on egoistic grounds devalues marriage and is a definite sin.

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx

And this is accepted across Orthodoxy, no exceptions, regardless of jurisdiction?  I guess my next question would be "on what authority"?

Most jurisdictions don't have comprehensive documents outlining their social teachings like the MP. The only other one I'm aware of (OCA) agrees. But Orthodox jurisdictions agree on matters of faith and morals (in theory, at least).
Well... If the entire Orthodox Church doesn't accept this as its teaching...

Where did you get that from? Both of the jurisdictions which have spoken about it have said that not having children is contrary to the sacramental nature of marriage. The other jurisdictions simply do not have comprehensive documents expounding that teaching. Your argument from silence does not prove that "the entire Orthodox Church doesn't accept this as its teaching."
I am just remembering this little thing called the “filioque”.
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« Reply #78 on: June 27, 2013, 12:22:09 AM »

Bottom line is, in respect the the original question, I have seen nothing stating not having children is sinful.

Well, that's incorrect. I'm the only one who actually answered the OP's question with reference to the teaching of Orthodox hierarchs in reply number 37.
I didn't see where it was called a sin.  Perhaps you could supply the quote.
Quote
The deliberate refusal of childbirth on egoistic grounds devalues marriage and is a definite sin.

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx

And this is accepted across Orthodoxy, no exceptions, regardless of jurisdiction?  I guess my next question would be "on what authority"?

Most jurisdictions don't have comprehensive documents outlining their social teachings like the MP. The only other one I'm aware of (OCA) agrees. But Orthodox jurisdictions agree on matters of faith and morals (in theory, at least).
Well... If the entire Orthodox Church doesn't accept this as its teaching...

Where did you get that from? Both of the jurisdictions which have spoken about it have said that not having children is contrary to the sacramental nature of marriage. The other jurisdictions simply do not have comprehensive documents expounding that teaching. Your argument from silence does not prove that "the entire Orthodox Church doesn't accept this as its teaching."
I am just remembering this little thing called the “filioque”.

 Huh
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« Reply #79 on: June 27, 2013, 12:34:05 AM »

Bottom line is, in respect the the original question, I have seen nothing stating not having children is sinful.

Well, that's incorrect. I'm the only one who actually answered the OP's question with reference to the teaching of Orthodox hierarchs in reply number 37.
I didn't see where it was called a sin.  Perhaps you could supply the quote.
Quote
The deliberate refusal of childbirth on egoistic grounds devalues marriage and is a definite sin.

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx

And this is accepted across Orthodoxy, no exceptions, regardless of jurisdiction?  I guess my next question would be "on what authority"?

Most jurisdictions don't have comprehensive documents outlining their social teachings like the MP. The only other one I'm aware of (OCA) agrees. But Orthodox jurisdictions agree on matters of faith and morals (in theory, at least).
Well... If the entire Orthodox Church doesn't accept this as its teaching...

Where did you get that from? Both of the jurisdictions which have spoken about it have said that not having children is contrary to the sacramental nature of marriage. The other jurisdictions simply do not have comprehensive documents expounding that teaching. Your argument from silence does not prove that "the entire Orthodox Church doesn't accept this as its teaching."
I am just remembering this little thing called the “filioque”.

 Huh
When you have one of the Apostles saying it is better not to marry, thus have no children, the question no longer is “is not having children a sin”, but rather becomes “are my methods of not having children sinful.” 

If not having child after child whenever the wife could conceive, almost the entire human race is guilty of this sin in some way.  It seems a little over the top to make the claim of not having children is a sin.  Understand, I am not saying it isn’t possible, only nothing I have seen or heard convinces me of such even under an Orthodox perspective.  Because the Russian jurisdiction, and by default the OCA believe it is, in no way speaks for the entire Orthodox Church.  If all, or even most, of the jurisdictions had proclaimed this and explained their conclusion, I would reconsider my view on this.  If someone can provide that information, I am open to seeing it.

When one Bishop makes a doctrinal claim on his own without consulting the others and all accepting that claim, the filioque is what you end up with.
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« Reply #80 on: June 27, 2013, 12:40:35 AM »

Bottom line is, in respect the the original question, I have seen nothing stating not having children is sinful.

Well, that's incorrect. I'm the only one who actually answered the OP's question with reference to the teaching of Orthodox hierarchs in reply number 37.
I didn't see where it was called a sin.  Perhaps you could supply the quote.
Quote
The deliberate refusal of childbirth on egoistic grounds devalues marriage and is a definite sin.

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx

And this is accepted across Orthodoxy, no exceptions, regardless of jurisdiction?  I guess my next question would be "on what authority"?

Most jurisdictions don't have comprehensive documents outlining their social teachings like the MP. The only other one I'm aware of (OCA) agrees. But Orthodox jurisdictions agree on matters of faith and morals (in theory, at least).
Well... If the entire Orthodox Church doesn't accept this as its teaching...

Where did you get that from? Both of the jurisdictions which have spoken about it have said that not having children is contrary to the sacramental nature of marriage. The other jurisdictions simply do not have comprehensive documents expounding that teaching. Your argument from silence does not prove that "the entire Orthodox Church doesn't accept this as its teaching."
I am just remembering this little thing called the “filioque”.

 Huh
When you have one of the Apostles saying it is better not to marry, thus have no children, the question no longer is “is not having children a sin”, but rather becomes “are my methods of not having children sinful.” 

If not having child after child whenever the wife could conceive, almost the entire human race is guilty of this sin in some way.  It seems a little over the top to make the claim of not having children is a sin.  Understand, I am not saying it isn’t possible, only nothing I have seen or heard convinces me of such even under an Orthodox perspective.  Because the Russian jurisdiction, and by default the OCA believe it is, in no way speaks for the entire Orthodox Church.  If all, or even most, of the jurisdictions had proclaimed this and explained their conclusion, I would reconsider my view on this.  If someone can provide that information, I am open to seeing it.

When one Bishop makes a doctrinal claim on his own without consulting the others and all accepting that claim, the filioque is what you end up with.


There is a consensus among the Russian, Greek, Serbian, Romanian and Antiochian Churches (I cannot speak for the other Churches since I have never had the opportunity to become acquainted with their teaching on this matter.)

The above Orthodox Churches allow contraception when

1.  it is non-abortive

2.  it is for grave and justifiable reasons

3.  it is for a limited time
.........(although health consideration may influence this)

4  it is used with the blessing of the parish priest or spiritual father or mother
.........(although this is not strictly necessary)

Fr Ambrose
Russian Orthodox Church (Abroad)

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« Reply #81 on: June 27, 2013, 12:45:19 AM »

If either the man or woman know they will not be a proper parent, as they would know if they would be a faithful spouse, how can we say it is wrong not to have a child if we would tell the latter not to marry?

This of course does not address abortion, as it is clearly sinful.
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« Reply #82 on: June 27, 2013, 01:57:12 AM »

One cannot even begin to understand the compassion, the emptying of self, the denial of self in what Christ did for us and for our salvation until he/she has become a parent. 

Those are not my words, but the words of a priest. 

We do not beget children merely because were biologically programmed to do so (even though we are), nor merely because of God's commands (though we are), nor because it's economically beneficial to society (though it is), nor because it prevents society from dieing out (though it does), but because as a husband and a wife are called to die to each other for Christ's sake as the martyrs did and is understood as a sacrament, so the begetting of a child brings us further along in that mystery--to die to self, to carry the cross and follow our Lord.  There is suffering in having children, but great joy.  And I can say this after being a parent for only one year.

Oh this is rich.

Yes, doing what nearly everyone else in society does, Christian or not, is "death".

It, i.e. marriage, is a death.  Why do you think hymns to the martyrs are chanted at weddings?  We understand and practice it that way.  Others do not.
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« Reply #83 on: June 27, 2013, 06:31:28 AM »

Threads like these are the reason why Roman Catholics keep mocking Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #84 on: June 27, 2013, 06:44:22 AM »

Threads like these are the reason why Roman Catholics keep mocking Orthodoxy.

Which would be ironic Smiley
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« Reply #85 on: June 27, 2013, 08:25:45 AM »

I don't know, but I feel like attacking the high horse that parents with kids like to stand on.

(rest of std. pompous teenager rant deleted)

Comment would be redundant.
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« Reply #86 on: June 27, 2013, 08:36:07 AM »

I think having kids is the best way to learn selflessness.  
Also tribalism.
Which pretty much describes the ethnic juridical mess of Orthodox in America. Parishioners don't seem keen on removing their country out of their Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #87 on: June 27, 2013, 08:36:19 AM »

I want to adopt an Asian kid who will go on to become rich and successful so that I know I'll be taken care of when I'm an old man and retire Smiley
What does Asian have to do with it?
Master race, duh.
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« Reply #88 on: June 27, 2013, 08:58:38 AM »

If either the man or woman know they will not be a proper parent, as they would know if they would be a faithful spouse, how can we say it is wrong not to have a child if we would tell the latter not to marry?

This of course does not address abortion, as it is clearly sinful.

I think that William is looking for the ideal.  Yes, you should be a monk/nun, but if you cannot control your urges marriage is the proper means of doing it, and if you are married you should be fruitful and multiply (this is pretty much the first order God ever gave to humans, along with naming animals and not eating certain apples.)

In your example, if two people know they'd be craptacular parents, perhaps they should remain celibate.  Now, in the real world that is likely not going to happen.  So they can either fornicate or they can take St. Paul's prescription.  The problem with the pharisees was that they would put a heavy yoke on someone but never lifted a finger to help them with it.  Christ said not to do this.  We shouldn't be out banging floozies, but God gave us the sacrament of marriage to help handle this.  From reading the New Testament it seems that this is the first duty of marriage.  Children then come second.
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« Reply #89 on: June 27, 2013, 09:39:54 AM »

One cannot even begin to understand the compassion, the emptying of self, the denial of self in what Christ did for us and for our salvation until he/she has become a parent.  

Those are not my words, but the words of a priest.  

We do not beget children merely because were biologically programmed to do so (even though we are), nor merely because of God's commands (though we are), nor because it's economically beneficial to society (though it is), nor because it prevents society from dieing out (though it does), but because as a husband and a wife are called to die to each other for Christ's sake as the martyrs did and is understood as a sacrament, so the begetting of a child brings us further along in that mystery--to die to self, to carry the cross and follow our Lord.  There is suffering in having children, but great joy.  And I can say this after being a parent for only one year.

Oh this is rich.

Yes, doing what nearly everyone else in society does, Christian or not, is "death".

It, i.e. marriage, is a death.  Why do you think hymns to the martyrs are chanted at weddings?  We understand and practice it that way.  Others do not.

Just because a group of Applebee's workers sing "Happy Birthday" to me today, doesn't change the fact it isn't my birthday.

How are you different than nearly every other American middle class family? I know what you understand and think about yourself, but that is really boring. And since you blog about your journey, maybe you can enlighten us on how you have "died" and how your marriage would be radically other than the marriages of everyone I work with.

BTW, there are more allusions to death in the Orthodox marriage service than the hymns to the Martyrs. I am not your Baptist coworker.

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« Reply #90 on: June 27, 2013, 05:43:21 PM »

I think having kids is the best way to learn selflessness.  
Also tribalism.
Which pretty much describes the ethnic juridical mess of Orthodox in America. Parishioners don't seem keen on removing their country out of their Orthodoxy.

Have you seen the let's-take-back-Constantinople thread? I was asphixiating watching all of the convert Greek nationalists.

You know you have a problem when^
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« Reply #91 on: July 05, 2013, 10:56:02 PM »

I had two relatives that never had kids because they didn't want it to interfere with their hobbies and ability to travel. Both of them were very selfish people in general.  I think having kids is the best way to learn selflessness.  Not that I am great at being selfless, but looking back at my life before kids, I was incredibly self-absorbed.

This post has so much wisdom...
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« Reply #92 on: July 05, 2013, 11:00:25 PM »

I don't know, but I feel like attacking the high horse that parents with kids like to stand on. You always act as if you are doing some grand, selfless act for the world by bearing children and raising them, accusing those who choose not to have children of being "selfish," but, what does it matter? You are not doing the world a favor at all by having children; in fact, you're just further draining the world of its resources and allowing another kid to be stuck in an orphanage for a longer time. No one is forcing you to have children and no one is getting hurt by your not having children. Step off and pull yourself out of your stupid persecuted person complex. You only had children for your own selfish reasons; you aren't helping anyone else by having them.

You are a selfish self absorbed brat.

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« Reply #93 on: July 05, 2013, 11:23:50 PM »

Cue those who exalt monasticism above married life in 3....2....

To be fair, anyone quoting the Church Fathers--excepting one or two cherry-picked quotes from St. John Chrysostom, and ignoring what he says elsewhere--will have no choice other than to go that route...

You have to be ignoring a lot of Church Fathers and a lot of lives of the Saints to give this statement...
Sts. Gregory and Nonna, Sts. Basil and Emelia (gave birth to 4 saints), St. Spyridon, St. John the Merciful (Pope of Alexandria), and that is only a few examples from among the hieratic Saints. 
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