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« on: June 26, 2013, 12:48:14 PM »

Is it considered a sin to not have children? I am talking about a married couple actually deciding to not have any versus not being able to.

Just wondering. Huh
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« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2013, 01:32:29 PM »

I hesitate to generalise an answer for things like this.  The married couple in question ought to honestly discuss their reasons for not wanting children with each other and with their priest and take it from there.  If it came up before the marriage, and it probably should've, it should've been discussed with the priest.   
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« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2013, 02:43:04 PM »

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« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2013, 02:48:52 PM »

I hear a lot of invective all around against 'selfish' people who don't want their lifestyles cramped by the vagaries of childrearing. I suppose such people exist, or the term 'child-free' wouldn't have been coined, but I haven't met any myself. All the willingly childless people I know made a hard decision based on health reasons, whether those involved hereditary disorders or advancing age, and I for one can't blame them for being responsible.
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« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2013, 02:51:31 PM »

All the willingly childless people I know made a hard decision based on health reasons, whether those involved hereditary disorders or advancing age, and I for one can't blame them for being responsible.
The OP said people who chose to not have kids versus not being able to.
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« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2013, 02:53:59 PM »

I had two relatives that never had kids because they didn't want it to interfere with their hobbies and ability to travel. Both of them were very selfish people in general.  I think having kids is the best way to learn selflessness.  Not that I am great at being selfless, but looking back at my life before kids, I was incredibly self-absorbed.
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« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2013, 02:55:06 PM »

Rebecca, I'd second Mor's comment as it's definitely something they should take up with their priest. Especially if it's not for health concerns, like Arachne mentioned.

I hear a lot of invective all around against 'selfish' people who don't want their lifestyles cramped by the vagaries of childrearing. I suppose such people exist, or the term 'child-free' wouldn't have been coined, but I haven't met any myself. All the willingly childless people I know made a hard decision based on health reasons, whether those involved hereditary disorders or advancing age, and I for one can't blame them for being responsible.

I've met some, and generally they've emphasized their careers and comfort above all else, often even over their spouse. I've known of a couple women in such relationships to reach their 40's or 50's and realize they want suddenly want to bear a child. You can imagine the problems they have then...
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« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2013, 02:55:46 PM »

I hear a lot of invective all around against 'selfish' people who don't want their lifestyles cramped by the vagaries of childrearing. I suppose such people exist, or the term 'child-free' wouldn't have been coined, but I haven't met any myself. All the willingly childless people I know made a hard decision based on health reasons, whether those involved hereditary disorders or advancing age, and I for one can't blame them for being responsible.

You assume choice is some subjective act.

I am sure many here will be running in to correct that notion.
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« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2013, 02:57:19 PM »

All the willingly childless people I know made a hard decision based on health reasons, whether those involved hereditary disorders or advancing age, and I for one can't blame them for being responsible.
The OP said people who chose to not have kids versus not being able to.

Yes, and that's what I said as well.
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« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2013, 02:57:55 PM »

All the willingly childless people I know made a hard decision based on health reasons, whether those involved hereditary disorders or advancing age, and I for one can't blame them for being responsible.
The OP said people who chose to not have kids versus not being able to.

It is nearly functionally impossible not to be able to care for children. While adoption has grown difficult in America thanks to racism and the reverse identity politics of minorities, being de facto adoptive parent by being a foster parent for a kid is not that difficult to finagle.
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« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2013, 03:01:06 PM »

All the willingly childless people I know made a hard decision based on health reasons, whether those involved hereditary disorders or advancing age, and I for one can't blame them for being responsible.
The OP said people who chose to not have kids versus not being able to.

Yes, and that's what I said as well.
If one is married and chooses to not have kids for a reason other than serious financial difficulties (i.e. college) or medical reasons, it is selfish.
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« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2013, 03:04:03 PM »

I don't know, but I feel like attacking the high horse that parents with kids like to stand on. You always act as if you are doing some grand, selfless act for the world by bearing children and raising them, accusing those who choose not to have children of being "selfish," but, what does it matter? You are not doing the world a favor at all by having children; in fact, you're just further draining the world of its resources and allowing another kid to be stuck in an orphanage for a longer time. No one is forcing you to have children and no one is getting hurt by your not having children. Step off and pull yourself out of your stupid persecuted person complex. You only had children for your own selfish reasons; you aren't helping anyone else by having them.
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« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2013, 03:06:56 PM »

If you wanted to predict the number of children someone would have in their life at birth, it wouldn't be difficult.

I think this hand-wringing over is x a sin is always going to be flawed from an Orthodox perspective as I understand it.

Just as I think it is equally flawed to resign oneself to the opinions of whatever Priest runs the parish you happen attend.

Most people do not have children or many, simply to enjoy their privileged status more and to help guarantee the one or maybe two kids they do have are able to enjoy further privilege.

People from lower socioeconomic classes within the First World and those from the developing world simply don't have the neurotic hang-up about kids that middle and upper class folks do.

Just walk around my neighborhood. Pregnant at 14? NBD. No books. No sweating getting Mozart into the crib's loudspeaker ASAP. If a couple isn't having five to six children, there is something medically wrong or they are being selfish.

I mean where I work people actually still budget for their kids' education before they are born. LOL.

Now, you can certainly have five to six children for selfish reasons as well.

Anyhoo. Enjoy your selfish lives. It's OK. There are worse ways to be self-consumed.



 
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« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2013, 03:07:54 PM »

All the willingly childless people I know made a hard decision based on health reasons, whether those involved hereditary disorders or advancing age, and I for one can't blame them for being responsible.
The OP said people who chose to not have kids versus not being able to.

Yes, and that's what I said as well.
If one is married and chooses to not have kids for a reason other than serious financial difficulties (i.e. college) or medical reasons, it is selfish.

Those are selfish as well.

Please. College?Huh??
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« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2013, 03:08:18 PM »

I don't know, but I feel like attacking the high horse that parents with kids like to stand on. You always act as if you are doing some grand, selfless act for the world by bearing children and raising them, accusing those who choose not to have children of being "selfish," but, what does it matter? You are not doing the world a favor at all by having children; in fact, you're just further draining the world of its resources and allowing another kid to be stuck in an orphanage for a longer time. No one is forcing you to have children and no one is getting hurt by your not having children. Step off and pull yourself out of your stupid persecuted person complex. You only had children for your own selfish reasons; you aren't helping anyone else by having them.
LOL, Oh James, you are priceless!  Roll Eyes

I don't think that the act of not having kids is selfish, I think it is a symptom of selfishness. There are of course many selfless childless people and many selfish people with children, but if one is selfish, having kids will often remedy that quickly. I think having children is the single greatest thing you can do for personal character growth and maturing.
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« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2013, 03:13:07 PM »

I don't know, but I feel like attacking the high horse that parents with kids like to stand on. You always act as if you are doing some grand, selfless act for the world by bearing children and raising them, accusing those who choose not to have children of being "selfish," but, what does it matter? You are not doing the world a favor at all by having children; in fact, you're just further draining the world of its resources and allowing another kid to be stuck in an orphanage for a longer time. No one is forcing you to have children and no one is getting hurt by your not having children. Step off and pull yourself out of your stupid persecuted person complex. You only had children for your own selfish reasons; you aren't helping anyone else by having them.
LOL, Oh James, you are priceless!  Roll Eyes

I don't think that the act of not having kids is selfish, I think it is a symptom of selfishness. There are of course many selfless childless people and many selfish people with children, but if one is selfish, having kids will often remedy that quickly. I think having children is the single greatest thing you can do for personal character growth and maturing.

Actually JamesR has a point.

Anyone who is serious about idiotic stuff like recycling, should not have kids. Can you imagine the sheer energy that goes into a kid in the First World. Then their kids, etc?

If you want to get serious about putting about conservation forget the hybrid, go with the vasectomy.

You can still help care for children without having your genes pass on.

Now as a matter of fatwa, I pronounce it is an incredible sin to use medical technology beyond a turkey baster to have child and a moderate one for importing a child.

Kids are everywhere. Go care for one or two. You don't need an HMO or Delta to find them.
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« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2013, 03:13:25 PM »

...if one is selfish, having kids will often remedy that quickly.

Or make it worse

Then the selfish person has a slave they could boss around and force to do their chores so they could be even selfish-er (if that's even a word) and if they are lucky, reap the welfare, tax deductions, and child support. I hate to shatter your romanticist notions about the grandness of having children, but that's just the way it is.

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...I think having children is the single greatest thing you can do for personal character growth and maturing.

Sounds selfish to me; having children for your own development.
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« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2013, 03:19:46 PM »

I don't know, but I feel like attacking the high horse that parents with kids like to stand on. You always act as if you are doing some grand, selfless act for the world by bearing children and raising them, accusing those who choose not to have children of being "selfish," but, what does it matter? You are not doing the world a favor at all by having children; in fact, you're just further draining the world of its resources and allowing another kid to be stuck in an orphanage for a longer time. No one is forcing you to have children and no one is getting hurt by your not having children. Step off and pull yourself out of your stupid persecuted person complex. You only had children for your own selfish reasons; you aren't helping anyone else by having them.
LOL, Oh James, you are priceless!  Roll Eyes

I don't think that the act of not having kids is selfish, I think it is a symptom of selfishness. There are of course many selfless childless people and many selfish people with children, but if one is selfish, having kids will often remedy that quickly. I think having children is the single greatest thing you can do for personal character growth and maturing.

Actually JamesR has a point.

Anyone who is serious about idiotic stuff like recycling, should not have kids. Can you imagine the sheer energy that goes into a kid in the First World. Then their kids, etc?

If you want to get serious about putting about conservation forget the hybrid, go with the vasectomy.

You can still help care for children without having your genes pass on.

Now as a matter of fatwa, I pronounce it is an incredible sin to use medical technology beyond a turkey baster to have child and a moderate one for importing a child.

Kids are everywhere. Go care for one or two. You don't need an HMO or Delta to find them.
just a lawyer and a bank account big enough for his retainer to legitimize the whole thing.

There is a direct relationship between selfishness and the closer one shoots for the yuppy mean of 2.2 kids. The only thing worse than having no children is having just enough to live vicariously through/get the whole package deal.

James should preach to the government of Europe, and Canada-they are trying to bribe people into having them.
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« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2013, 03:22:24 PM »

...if one is selfish, having kids will often remedy that quickly.

Or make it worse

Then the selfish person has a slave they could boss around and force to do their chores so they could be even selfish-er (if that's even a word) and if they are lucky, reap the welfare, tax deductions, and child support. I hate to shatter your romanticist notions about the grandness of having children, but that's just the way it is.
I suppose that there are people out there like that, but MOST people sacrifice far more for their kids than their children ever realize. (At least until they have their own kids and realize what all goes into it)  If you want someone to boss around, hire a maid, so much cheaper than kids, and you don't have to change their diapers non-stop for the first two years of them being in your house.

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...I think having children is the single greatest thing you can do for personal character growth and maturing.

Sounds selfish to me; having children for your own development.
I don't think that is WHY you should have kids, but it is certainly a benefit that one gets from rearing children.
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« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2013, 03:23:09 PM »

I don't know, but I feel like attacking the high horse that parents with kids like to stand on. You always act as if you are doing some grand, selfless act for the world by bearing children and raising them, accusing those who choose not to have children of being "selfish," but, what does it matter? You are not doing the world a favor at all by having children; in fact, you're just further draining the world of its resources and allowing another kid to be stuck in an orphanage for a longer time. No one is forcing you to have children and no one is getting hurt by your not having children. Step off and pull yourself out of your stupid persecuted person complex. You only had children for your own selfish reasons; you aren't helping anyone else by having them.
LOL, Oh James, you are priceless!  Roll Eyes

I don't think that the act of not having kids is selfish, I think it is a symptom of selfishness. There are of course many selfless childless people and many selfish people with children, but if one is selfish, having kids will often remedy that quickly. I think having children is the single greatest thing you can do for personal character growth and maturing.

Actually JamesR has a point.

Anyone who is serious about idiotic stuff like recycling, should not have kids. Can you imagine the sheer energy that goes into a kid in the First World. Then their kids, etc?

If you want to get serious about putting about conservation forget the hybrid, go with the vasectomy.

You can still help care for children without having your genes pass on.

Now as a matter of fatwa, I pronounce it is an incredible sin to use medical technology beyond a turkey baster to have child and a moderate one for importing a child.

Kids are everywhere. Go care for one or two. You don't need an HMO or Delta to find them.
just a lawyer and a bank account big enough for his retainer to legitimize the whole thing.

There is a direct relationship between selfishness and the closer one shoots for the yuppy mean of 2.2 kids. The only thing worse than having no children is having just enough to live vicariously through/get the whole package deal.

James should preach to the government of Europe, and Canada-they are trying to bribe people into having them.

Don't forget Japan.

People really can't imagine how not xenophobic the US is till they live elsewhere for a considerable amount of time.

There is a weird disconnect, especially in Europe, compared to here, but I don't have the time right now to get into it.
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« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2013, 03:24:37 PM »

I hate to shatter your romanticist notions about the grandness of having children, but that's just the way it is.

Ah! Experience! That most noble of teachers.
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« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2013, 03:27:45 PM »

Don't forget Japan.

People really can't imagine how not xenophobic the US is till they live elsewhere for a considerable amount of time.

I haven't lived in Japan or anything, but this is one thing I hear commonly from those that do (results varying, of course). Japanese often really don't like non-Japanese. They sometimes have open discrimination in their store signs even ("No Americans," etc.).

I had a friend that was Brazilian living in Japan, and he could only work night stocking shifts since the Japanese customers wouldn't want to interact with a Brazilian during the day. He described at some length how poorly he was treated by the Japanese in general, although he did have some good relations with some Japanese.
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« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2013, 03:37:32 PM »

One cannot even begin to understand the compassion, the emptying of self, the denial of self in what Christ did for us and for our salvation until he/she has become a parent. 

Those are not my words, but the words of a priest. 

We do not beget children merely because were biologically programmed to do so (even though we are), nor merely because of God's commands (though we are), nor because it's economically beneficial to society (though it is), nor because it prevents society from dieing out (though it does), but because as a husband and a wife are called to die to each other for Christ's sake as the martyrs did and is understood as a sacrament, so the begetting of a child brings us further along in that mystery--to die to self, to carry the cross and follow our Lord.  There is suffering in having children, but great joy.  And I can say this after being a parent for only one year.
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« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2013, 03:40:38 PM »

Sounds selfish to me; having children for your own development.

With that logic, becoming Orthodox is selfish.  Joining a church to come into communion with our Lord and to develop into a true human being really is selfish.
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« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2013, 04:01:00 PM »

Sounds selfish to me; having children for your own development.

With that logic, becoming Orthodox is selfish.  Joining a church to come into communion with our Lord and to develop into a true human being really is selfish.

It is; I'm not denying it.

Oh no, it's my inner Ayn Rand coming out
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« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2013, 04:26:34 PM »

Sounds selfish to me; having children for your own development.

With that logic, becoming Orthodox is selfish.  Joining a church to come into communion with our Lord and to develop into a true human being really is selfish.

It probably nearly always is.
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« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2013, 04:28:14 PM »

One cannot even begin to understand the compassion, the emptying of self, the denial of self in what Christ did for us and for our salvation until he/she has become a parent. 

Those are not my words, but the words of a priest. 

We do not beget children merely because were biologically programmed to do so (even though we are), nor merely because of God's commands (though we are), nor because it's economically beneficial to society (though it is), nor because it prevents society from dieing out (though it does), but because as a husband and a wife are called to die to each other for Christ's sake as the martyrs did and is understood as a sacrament, so the begetting of a child brings us further along in that mystery--to die to self, to carry the cross and follow our Lord.  There is suffering in having children, but great joy.  And I can say this after being a parent for only one year.

Oh this is rich.

Yes, doing what nearly everyone else in society does, Christian or not, is "death".
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« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2013, 04:30:25 PM »

My pre-school son is in the process of a full blown temper tantrum replete with screaming and an Oscar winning dramatic. I selfishly NEED him to go to bed for the good of my future sanity. Mercy!
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« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2013, 04:31:23 PM »

One cannot even begin to understand the compassion, the emptying of self, the denial of self in what Christ did for us and for our salvation until he/she has become a parent. 

Those are not my words, but the words of a priest. 

We do not beget children merely because were biologically programmed to do so (even though we are), nor merely because of God's commands (though we are), nor because it's economically beneficial to society (though it is), nor because it prevents society from dieing out (though it does), but because as a husband and a wife are called to die to each other for Christ's sake as the martyrs did and is understood as a sacrament, so the begetting of a child brings us further along in that mystery--to die to self, to carry the cross and follow our Lord.  There is suffering in having children, but great joy.  And I can say this after being a parent for only one year.

Cue those who exalt monasticism above married life in 3....2....
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« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2013, 04:35:48 PM »

One cannot even begin to understand the compassion, the emptying of self, the denial of self in what Christ did for us and for our salvation until he/she has become a parent. 

Those are not my words, but the words of a priest. 

We do not beget children merely because were biologically programmed to do so (even though we are), nor merely because of God's commands (though we are), nor because it's economically beneficial to society (though it is), nor because it prevents society from dieing out (though it does), but because as a husband and a wife are called to die to each other for Christ's sake as the martyrs did and is understood as a sacrament, so the begetting of a child brings us further along in that mystery--to die to self, to carry the cross and follow our Lord.  There is suffering in having children, but great joy.  And I can say this after being a parent for only one year.

Cue those who exalt monasticism above married life in 3....2....

That's another point really driven home by having children. angel
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« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2013, 04:53:31 PM »

Cue those who exalt monasticism above married life in 3....2....

To be fair, anyone quoting the Church Fathers--excepting one or two cherry-picked quotes from St. John Chrysostom, and ignoring what he says elsewhere--will have no choice other than to go that route...
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« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2013, 05:00:37 PM »

Having children is virtuous only if you raise them to be decent people.  If they are hellions then it is a crime.
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« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2013, 05:01:04 PM »

Cue those who exalt monasticism above married life in 3....2....

To be fair, anyone quoting the Church Fathers--excepting one or two cherry-picked quotes from St. John Chrysostom, and ignoring what he says elsewhere--will have no choice other than to go that route...

The elevated view of marriage we have in the West is probably the best thing the Reformation gave the world.

Wait, did I say that?
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« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2013, 05:42:37 PM »

One cannot even begin to understand the compassion, the emptying of self, the denial of self in what Christ did for us and for our salvation until he/she has become a parent. 

Those are not my words, but the words of a priest. 

We do not beget children merely because were biologically programmed to do so (even though we are), nor merely because of God's commands (though we are), nor because it's economically beneficial to society (though it is), nor because it prevents society from dieing out (though it does), but because as a husband and a wife are called to die to each other for Christ's sake as the martyrs did and is understood as a sacrament, so the begetting of a child brings us further along in that mystery--to die to self, to carry the cross and follow our Lord.  There is suffering in having children, but great joy.  And I can say this after being a parent for only one year.

Cue those who exalt monasticism above married life in 3....2....

If married life means vacations, retirement, etc. then maybe it is pretty much a monk's life, but I thought marriage was supposed to be some sorta "death".

Vacations, health insurance, etc., sounds like what everyone else around me is scrambling for including the gays.

I gotta get with scam and Gebre to learn how to elevate my rather predictable life choices to that of some spiritual exercise so I can blog about it.
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« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2013, 06:29:17 PM »

Parenthood doesn't take the selfishness out of anyone that doesn't choose to change. There are selfish parents aplenty.

If you are too emotionally unstable to raise children, then don't do it. But if you are too emotionally unstable to raise children you likely shouldn't get married either.

If a couple actively desire to never have children, then there is a reason for it. That choice/desire can change. My husband and I initially never wanted to have children for a very stupid reason in retrospect. It is quite hilarious now really. We were both raised with all the doom and gloom end times crap. We were both convinced by our parents that the world was going to hell in a handbasket, and the end was  near. Neither of us wanted to bring children into a world that was about to end. After the turn of the millennium we both felt more comfortable with the concept, hence our eldest child (of 6) was born in 2001 Wink

So I will add that you shouldn't rear children if you are going to fill their impressionable minds with how horrible the world is. It might be fine and dandy for you as an adult to think the world is horrible. But young children become paranoid/fearful basketcases from being constantly inundated with that kind of propaganda.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 06:30:42 PM by Quinault » Logged
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« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2013, 06:33:54 PM »

Is it considered a sin to not have children? I am talking about a married couple actually deciding to not have any versus not being able to.

Just wondering. Huh
No.  In retrospect I would not have brought a child into this craphole of a world.  Instead I would have adopted children already here in need of a loving family.  But you know what they say about hindsight.
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« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2013, 06:35:01 PM »

Kerdy, if your profile age is correct, you aren't too old to adopt or become a foster parent Smiley You are only a year older than my husband.

I would love to adopt some native children once we have a larger house. Native kids often end up in the foster care cycle because of the American Indian Adoption laws. At best siblings end up split up. Adopting some siblings would be nice.
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« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2013, 06:38:41 PM »

Quote
The deliberate refusal of childbirth on egoistic grounds devalues marriage and is a definite sin.

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/3/14.aspx
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« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2013, 06:40:34 PM »

Kerdy, if your profile age is correct, you aren't too old to adopt or become a foster parent Smiley You are only a year older than my husband.

I would love to adopt some native children once we have a larger house. Native kids often end up in the foster care cycle because of the American Indian Adoption laws. At best siblings end up split up. Adopting some siblings would be nice.
After having my own children, I can no longer afford to adopt.

Edit:
After my last one, I'm not sure I want anymore kids. Grin
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 06:42:03 PM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2013, 06:41:38 PM »

Foster to adopt costs nothing.
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« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2013, 06:43:10 PM »

Foster to adopt costs nothing.
True, but you can't always adopt a foster child which can be removed at any time.  I'm not sure that is good for the child, being bounced around.

Edit:
That and I'm probably going back to school within the year.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 06:45:12 PM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2013, 06:50:01 PM »

Foster kids get bounced around mostly due to bad foster parents. Case managers like to keep kids where they are whenever possible. One family I know has 13 kids. They adopted 5 of them. 3 of the kids were adopted as teens from Liberia, 2 were foster to adopt from infancy.

There are also programs that pay for adoption. Up here there is a church that pays for adoption fees if the couple will adopt minority children. For some sick/twisted/racist reason white kids are more expensive to adopt that minorities. So the white kids are adopted before the minority kids.
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« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2013, 06:53:29 PM »

My husband had a foster brother for 15 years. He wasn't adopted officially because they didn't go thru the name change legally. Otherwise he was basically their child.
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« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2013, 06:55:12 PM »

Foster kids get bounced around mostly due to bad foster parents. Case managers like to keep kids where they are whenever possible. One family I know has 13 kids. They adopted 6 of them. 3 of the kids were adopted as teens from Liberia, 3 were foster to adopt from infancy.

There are also programs that pay for adoption. Up here there is a church that pays for adoption fees if the couple will adopt minority children. For some sick/twisted/racist reason white kids are more expensive to adopt that minorities. So the white kids are adopted before the minority kids.
Really?  That's nuts.  It should cost the same.

By today's standards, I would be considered a bad foster parent.  I believe in discipline.

So, Native American kids have it tough in adoptions?
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« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2013, 06:57:09 PM »

People from lower socioeconomic classes within the First World and those from the developing world simply don't have the neurotic hang-up about kids that middle and upper class folks do.

Just walk around my neighborhood. Pregnant at 14? NBD. No books. No sweating getting Mozart into the crib's loudspeaker ASAP. If a couple isn't having five to six children, there is something medically wrong or they are being selfish.
You know orthonorm I hear the following argument all the time: "Well if they stopped having so many kids maybe they could pull themselves out of their low socioeconomic class and better themselves".

But it seems to me even if they were to only have 1-2 or even no kids, any sort of class mobility is still futile.
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