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Author Topic: The Divine Liturgy of Serapion Celebrated For the First Time  (Read 1345 times) Average Rating: 0
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mike
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« on: June 26, 2013, 11:08:29 AM »

It looks like not only WRO are LARP-ing.

On Sunday, June 16, 2013 all those who attended the Liturgy in the Sacred Church of Panagia Myrtidiotissa lived a moment of devoutness, on the occasion of the celebration of the, until then unknown to many, ancient Divine Liturgy of one of the Holy Fathers of the holy and sacred Synods, Bishop Serapion of Thmuis.
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« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2013, 11:46:31 AM »

Another versus populum liturgy? Intersting. Never heard of this one before though.
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« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2013, 11:52:14 AM »

"Lived a moment of devoutness"...such phrases are cute.  

While I think occasions such as these are interesting from a liturgical point of view, and I don't really have a problem with the use of different rites, it bothers me when they celebrate these "unknown" Liturgies facing the people.  Is that actually called for in the rubrics of such rites?  Facing East for worship is an ancient custom of Christianity, and yet it is these unknown, ancient Liturgies which Greeks end up celebrating facing West, while the entire church building they are celebrated in was designed for eastward worship.  Is it just an excuse to do anything you want?  "Hey, here's a manuscript of the Liturgy of Epiphanios of Salamis, we'll need some clowns..."?
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« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2013, 12:05:14 PM »

"Lived a moment of devoutness"...such phrases are cute.  

While I think occasions such as these are interesting from a liturgical point of view, and I don't really have a problem with the use of different rites, it bothers me when they celebrate these "unknown" Liturgies facing the people.  Is that actually called for in the rubrics of such rites?  Facing East for worship is an ancient custom of Christianity, and yet it is these unknown, ancient Liturgies which Greeks end up celebrating facing West, while the entire church building they are celebrated in was designed for eastward worship.  Is it just an excuse to do anything you want?  "Hey, here's a manuscript of the Liturgy of Epiphanios of Salamis, we'll need some clowns..."?

The Liturgy of St. James in EO practice is also versus populum I think. Not sure about the rubrics of either.
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« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2013, 12:10:04 PM »

The only time I saw an EO celebration of the James Liturgy, it was ad orientem.  But that was in an OCA cathedral.  Certainly, we don't celebrate James versus populum.  I'd love to see a rubric if it exists, but for now I really think this is a matter of Greeks resurrecting old Liturgies for Show and Tell, and versus populum lends itself to Show and Tell.  I wish they'd just do it the right way.
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« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2013, 12:33:48 PM »

The only time I saw an EO celebration of the James Liturgy, it was ad orientem.  But that was in an OCA cathedral.  Certainly, we don't celebrate James versus populum.  I'd love to see a rubric if it exists, but for now I really think this is a matter of Greeks resurrecting old Liturgies for Show and Tell, and versus populum lends itself to Show and Tell.  I wish they'd just do it the right way.
Your altars aren't free-standing either so that would pose more technical difficulties than when you have a free standing altar.
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« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2013, 12:36:36 PM »

"Lived a moment of devoutness"...such phrases are cute.  

While I think occasions such as these are interesting from a liturgical point of view, and I don't really have a problem with the use of different rites, it bothers me when they celebrate these "unknown" Liturgies facing the people.  Is that actually called for in the rubrics of such rites?  Facing East for worship is an ancient custom of Christianity, and yet it is these unknown, ancient Liturgies which Greeks end up celebrating facing West, while the entire church building they are celebrated in was designed for eastward worship.  Is it just an excuse to do anything you want?  "Hey, here's a manuscript of the Liturgy of Epiphanios of Salamis, we'll need some clowns..."?

The Liturgy of St. James in EO practice is also versus populum I think. Not sure about the rubrics of either.

The Liturgy of St. James is facing the people during the readings and returns to east orientation after just like the Sts. John and Basil varieties.
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Joseph
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« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2013, 12:43:32 PM »

Your altars aren't free-standing either so that would pose more technical difficulties than when you have a free standing altar.

You are wrong, our altars are free-standing.  The only ones I've ever seen that were pushed up against the wall were "side altars" and those in churches too small to accommodate a free-standing altar without sacrificing space in the nave for the people.   
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« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2013, 12:52:39 PM »

Back to the original topic...

These ancient liturgies are interesting studies, but I do have a serious problem when we try and resurrect something that has been dead for over 1000 years. It gets especially dicey when you really study the words of some of these text. While 99% of the text may be great, there are thoughts that are expressed in some of these text that may border on heresy. I personally love the liturgical text of Melito of Sardis, but I would never dream of using it in a liturgical context.

I find us Orthodox doing this to be playing with the Liturgy when we try and recreate. As far as I am concerned there are 6 Eastern Liturgies that have stood the test of time (John, Basil, James, Gregory the Great, Gregory the Theologian, and Mark) that have proper place to be served.  
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« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2013, 01:00:47 PM »

Your altars aren't free-standing either so that would pose more technical difficulties than when you have a free standing altar.

You are wrong, our altars are free-standing.  The only ones I've ever seen that were pushed up against the wall were "side altars" and those in churches too small to accommodate a free-standing altar without sacrificing space in the nave for the people.   
I went to an Indian Syrian church-on Naragansett st. in Chicago a  more that 10 yrs ago an they didn't have a free standing altar. So i assumed that was the rule. 
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« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2013, 01:22:38 PM »

I find us Orthodox doing this to be playing with the Liturgy when we try and recreate. As far as I am concerned there are 6 Eastern Liturgies that have stood the test of time (John, Basil, James, Gregory the Great, Gregory the Theologian, and Mark) that have proper place to be served.  

Gregory the Theologian and Mark?  Which are those and who has used them continuously? 
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« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2013, 01:27:17 PM »

I went to an Indian Syrian church-on Naragansett st. in Chicago a  more that 10 yrs ago an they didn't have a free standing altar. So i assumed that was the rule. 

Well, I hope you enjoyed your visit.  Smiley

Perhaps that church was one of those where the size of the building itself was a factor.  Generally, our altars are free-standing, as you have to be able to circumambulate.  There is a way to do things without being able to walk around the altar, of course, but that's exceptional and not normative.  There are EO altars I've seen (e.g., photos of certain chapels in monasteries) where the altar is against the wall.  Liturgy may well be served in those places, with, I imagine, certain adaptations being made to accommodate that situation.     
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« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2013, 02:51:50 PM »

I find us Orthodox doing this to be playing with the Liturgy when we try and recreate. As far as I am concerned there are 6 Eastern Liturgies that have stood the test of time (John, Basil, James, Gregory the Great, Gregory the Theologian, and Mark) that have proper place to be served.  

Gregory the Theologian and Mark?  Which are those and who has used them continuously? 

The Liturgies of St. Gregory the Theologian and St. Mark are both still used in Alexandrian, Cyprus, and some monastic communities in Northern Greece. The Liturgy of St. Gregory the Theologian is almost word for word the same one the Coptics use by the same name. I have never seen a text for the Byzantine Liturgy of St. Mark, but my understanding from people who have spent time in Alexandria where it is done a different times throughout the year, it is very different from the Coptic version.

Cyprus is sort of the Orthodox time capsule for Orthodox Liturgy. For some reason many practices that fell out of use still exist on the island.
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« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2013, 08:38:50 PM »

Very interesting, thanks!  Looks like I need to plan a vacation...
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« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2013, 10:55:55 PM »

I find us Orthodox doing this to be playing with the Liturgy when we try and recreate. As far as I am concerned there are 6 Eastern Liturgies that have stood the test of time (John, Basil, James, Gregory the Great, Gregory the Theologian, and Mark) that have proper place to be served.  

Gregory the Theologian and Mark?  Which are those and who has used them continuously? 

They are served in the Great City of Alexandria, by Alexandrians for whom the sun rises.
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« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2013, 01:14:15 AM »

What sort of harm is everyone seeing in resurrecting the Liturgy of Saint Serapion, or other examples, like newer churches building pro-iconostases like one would see in the Cathedral of Holy Wisdom?   
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« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2013, 01:22:40 AM »

I find us Orthodox doing this to be playing with the Liturgy when we try and recreate. As far as I am concerned there are 6 Eastern Liturgies that have stood the test of time (John, Basil, James, Gregory the Great, Gregory the Theologian, and Mark) that have proper place to be served.  

Gregory the Theologian and Mark?  Which are those and who has used them continuously? 

They are served in the Great City of Alexandria, by Alexandrians for whom the sun rises.
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« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2013, 08:36:44 AM »

I find us Orthodox doing this to be playing with the Liturgy when we try and recreate. As far as I am concerned there are 6 Eastern Liturgies that have stood the test of time (John, Basil, James, Gregory the Great, Gregory the Theologian, and Mark) that have proper place to be served.  

Gregory the Theologian and Mark?  Which are those and who has used them continuously? 

They are served in the Great City of Alexandria, by Alexandrians for whom ONLY the sun rises.

There, fixed it.  Grin
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« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2013, 12:17:16 AM »

"Lived a moment of devoutness"...such phrases are cute.  

While I think occasions such as these are interesting from a liturgical point of view, and I don't really have a problem with the use of different rites, it bothers me when they celebrate these "unknown" Liturgies facing the people.  Is that actually called for in the rubrics of such rites?  Facing East for worship is an ancient custom of Christianity, and yet it is these unknown, ancient Liturgies which Greeks end up celebrating facing West, while the entire church building they are celebrated in was designed for eastward worship.  Is it just an excuse to do anything you want?  "Hey, here's a manuscript of the Liturgy of Epiphanios of Salamis, we'll need some clowns..."?

The Liturgy of St. James in EO practice is also versus populum I think. Not sure about the rubrics of either.

I've only been to the Byzantine Rite's version of St. James' Divine Liturgy in an Antiochian Orthodox church and while there were a couple of things that had me wondering whether rubrics or the parish's Anglicanesque past were informing what was going on, the service was ad orientem.
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