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EasternAnglicanism
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« on: June 24, 2013, 10:57:43 PM »

I am looking to purchase a set of Byzantine-style vestments for my church. Has anyone here ever dealt with this place?

http://www.orthodox-priest-vestments.com

I'm trying to determine if they are legit, since it's $100s we are talking about.
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« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2013, 11:36:33 PM »

I am looking to purchase a set of Byzantine-style vestments for my church. Has anyone here ever dealt with this place?

I do not understand why you need Byzantine-style vestments?

You originally posted this in the liturgy section, but I moved this topic here because the discussion your question raises is not a question for Liturgy, but rather Orthodox-Protestant Discussion.

Do you realize how offensive what you trying to do is to the Orthodox? It looks and sounds like a joke.

If you want to pray like the Orthodox, then that means accepting the theology of the Orthodox, and thus renouncing the errors of Anglicanism, and being received into the Orthodox Church. To dress up and pray like Orthodox without being in the faith is just playing, and that is something I know I find offensive.
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« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2013, 11:41:24 PM »

I am looking to purchase a set of Byzantine-style vestments for my church. Has anyone here ever dealt with this place?

I do not understand why you need Byzantine-style vestments?

You originally posted this in the liturgy section, but I moved this topic here because the discussion your question raises is not a question for Liturgy, but rather Orthodox-Protestant Discussion.

Do you realize how offensive what you trying to do is to the Orthodox? It looks and sounds like a joke.

If you want to pray like the Orthodox, then that means accepting the theology of the Orthodox, and thus renouncing the errors of Anglicanism, and being received into the Orthodox Church. To dress up and pray like Orthodox without being in the faith is just playing, and that is something I know I find offensive.

So do you object the Byzantine-Rite Romanists wearing said vestments?
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« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2013, 11:50:02 PM »

So do you object the Byzantine-Rite Romanists wearing said vestments?

I find the Byzantine-Rite under the Rome even more offensive because they are either apostates themselves, or generations of apostates. In your case I feel sorry for you, because you are the same as the vagate groups - you are misguided in what you are doing.
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« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2013, 12:59:47 AM »

I am looking to purchase a set of Byzantine-style vestments for my church. Has anyone here ever dealt with this place?

I do not understand why you need Byzantine-style vestments?

You originally posted this in the liturgy section, but I moved this topic here because the discussion your question raises is not a question for Liturgy, but rather Orthodox-Protestant Discussion.

Do you realize how offensive what you trying to do is to the Orthodox? It looks and sounds like a joke.

If you want to pray like the Orthodox, then that means accepting the theology of the Orthodox, and thus renouncing the errors of Anglicanism, and being received into the Orthodox Church. To dress up and pray like Orthodox without being in the faith is just playing, and that is something I know I find offensive.

Count me in as well in those who find offensive EasternAnglicanism's listed religious affiliation of "Orthodox Christian in the Anglican communion". Catechumens in Orthodoxy have the prerogative to call themselves Orthodox, even before their baptism or chrismation, but EasternAnglican, unless you are a catechumen of the Orthodox Church, you have no right to call yourself Orthodox.

As for seeking Byzantine vestments, masquerading as Orthodox clergy and servers is shameful and deceptive. Like these Georgian (the nation, not the American state) Baptists, who've also adopted icons and other Orthodox trappings:



Given that the Georgian Orthodox Church was established in about the fourth century AD, and has survived oppression under Soviet rule, the appropriation of Orthodox trappings by non-Orthodox groups is particularly odious.



« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 01:03:17 AM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2013, 01:31:09 AM »

I am looking to purchase a set of Byzantine-style vestments for my church. Has anyone here ever dealt with this place?

http://www.orthodox-priest-vestments.com

I'm trying to determine if they are legit, since it's $100s we are talking about.
Are you the same guy who posts on CF.com?

I tend to like the Anglicans. I also think this effort is doomed to failure and cannot in good conscience offer any support. I think most of us feel the same way.

We may be wrong, so email one of our bishops or priests to see if they will offer a recommendation; they are in a better position to testify to the quality of vestments, anyway. Perhaps Fr. George or Fr. Serb would be willing to chime in here.
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« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2013, 02:09:01 AM »

Count me in as well in those who find offensive EasternAnglicanism's listed religious affiliation of "Orthodox Christian in the Anglican communion". Catechumens in Orthodoxy have the prerogative to call themselves Orthodox, even before their baptism or chrismation, but EasternAnglican, unless you are a catechumen of the Orthodox Church, you have no right to call yourself Orthodox.

As for seeking Byzantine vestments, masquerading as Orthodox clergy and servers is shameful and deceptive. Like these Georgian (the nation, not the American state) Baptists, who've also adopted icons and other Orthodox trappings:

Thanks, LBK.  I really ought to have seen that photo after a full night's sleep, but now it's too late.  If I morph into Grumpy Cat in the morning, there's a meme headed your way.  Tongue 

It's pretty bad when I figure even "Novus Ordo" vestment manufacturers could probably make a better set of faux Byzantine vestments.  Kudos to that tall "priest" who seems to have no arms, though. 

In another thread, I believe I asked EasternAnglicanism what the point of Byzantine rite Anglicanism was, seeing as the Anglican Church is a Western Church which split from another Western Church and is "English".  I understand, for example, the "Mar Thoma Church" in India, but unless some EO broke away from the Church and became Anglican but wanted to keep the rite, what is the point of this?  Honestly, I'm still interested in the answer to that question.  It's easy to have a knee jerk reaction to this stuff, but what's behind it?  I don't know if I believe they set out to disrespect anyone, but it's still a bit unusual. 

Anyway, no one should ever have to wear vestments like those above... 
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« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2013, 02:17:29 AM »

Quote
If I morph into Grumpy Cat in the morning, there's a meme headed your way.   Tongue

Please do, I love Grumpy Cat, and I LOVE his even grumpier Orthodox cousin!  laugh
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« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2013, 03:06:03 AM »

You people are silly. There's nothing offensive in Eastern Anglicanism. It's silly but so is Western Anglicanism. Western vestments are ours too so if using Eastern vestments is offensive using Western vestments should be too.

We are not an Eastern church. We are the Catholic Church.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 03:08:28 AM by Alpo » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2013, 03:26:18 AM »

You people are silly. There's nothing offensive in Eastern Anglicanism. It's silly but so is Western Anglicanism. Western vestments are ours too so if using Eastern vestments is offensive using Western vestments should be too.

We are not an Eastern church. We are the Catholic Church.

That's a neat, nice sentiment in theory.
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« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2013, 03:37:09 AM »

Theory should prevail in this case. Emotional attachment to the East is nice if it keeps people in the Church  but ridiculous in this case.
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« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2013, 03:49:08 AM »

Theory should prevail in this case. Emotional attachment to the East is nice if it keeps people in the Church  but ridiculous in this case.

No. Go role play somewhere else. Sorry, but we don't live in a world where the church has multiple rites. The Orthodox Church really has only the eastern rite and some incredibly small-scale western rite experimentation. It is perfectly legitimate for Orthodox Christians to take offense at what is more or less exclusively theirs being made into a mockery.
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« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2013, 04:02:34 AM »


No. Go role play somewhere else. Sorry, but we don't live in a world where the church has multiple rites. The Orthodox Church really has only the eastern rite and some incredibly small-scale western rite experimentation. It is perfectly legitimate for Orthodox Christians to take offense at what is more or less exclusively theirs being made into a mockery.

Precisely. If these Anglicans want to embrace the trappings of Orthodoxy, the honest and honorable thing to do is to become Orthodox properly, and forget about this experiment which shames them, and justifiably raises the ire of the Orthodox who see their hallowed and venerable praxis being treated as a mere exotic plaything of dilettantes.

Another consideration which these "Eastern Anglicans" probably haven't thought of: Vestments aren't just fancy duds worn to add "majesty" and "beauty" to a service, nor are they worn simply to set clergy apart from the laity. Each component of vestments has a specific purpose, meaning (often more than one) and history; clergy do not simply dress themselves in them and then step out and conduct the service. Each component is put on in order, with specific prayers said for each component. Prayers are also said at the removal of each component.

There is nothing random or accidental in Orthodoxy. Everything has its place. Everything has its purpose.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 04:05:03 AM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2013, 04:35:42 AM »

Theory should prevail in this case. Emotional attachment to the East is nice if it keeps people in the Church  but ridiculous in this case.

No. Go role play somewhere else. Sorry, but we don't live in a world where the church has multiple rites. The Orthodox Church really has only the eastern rite and some incredibly small-scale western rite experimentation. It is perfectly legitimate for Orthodox Christians to take offense at what is more or less exclusively theirs being made into a mockery.

There is nothing in Christianity that is exclusively ours. Not a single thing. Welcome to the 21st century. Nowadays it is customarily allowed to have differing religious views. Hence Anglicans can wear whatever they want and getting offended because of that is simply childish.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 04:39:26 AM by Alpo » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2013, 05:51:54 AM »

Theory should prevail in this case. Emotional attachment to the East is nice if it keeps people in the Church  but ridiculous in this case.

No. Go role play somewhere else. Sorry, but we don't live in a world where the church has multiple rites. The Orthodox Church really has only the eastern rite and some incredibly small-scale western rite experimentation. It is perfectly legitimate for Orthodox Christians to take offense at what is more or less exclusively theirs being made into a mockery.

There is nothing in Christianity that is exclusively ours. Not a single thing. Welcome to the 21st century. Nowadays it is customarily allowed to have differing religious views. Hence Anglicans can wear whatever they want and getting offended because of that is simply childish.

You're missing the point, Alpo. These folks are trying to create a completely artificial (in all that word's senses) form and style of worship, which has no precedent or basis in their own Anglican tradition, and, in adopting Orthodox trappings such as Byzantine-style vestments, are making a mockery of the Church.

Hasn't enough damage been done with non-Orthodox dilettantes painting "icons" which are anything but? Why should these "Eastern Anglicans" be encouraged by Orthodox folks to play dress-ups with Orthodox vestments, and, in the case of the OP, call themselves "Orthodox in the Anglican communion"?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 05:57:19 AM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2013, 06:01:28 AM »

You're missing the point, Alpo. These folks are trying to create a completely artificial (in all that word's senses) form and style of worship, which has no precedent or basis in their own Anglican tradition,

Who cares? The OP can pray with his underwear on his head and that's not our business.

Quote
and, in adopting Orthodox trappings such as Byzantine-style vestments, are making a mockery of the Church.

I wonder why no one calls Eastern Catholics a mockery.

It was stupid from the OP to ask such a question on this forum but that's all. He can wear whatever he wants, call himself however he wants and pray however he wants not matter how bizarrely.
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« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2013, 06:45:11 AM »

You're missing the point, Alpo. These folks are trying to create a completely artificial (in all that word's senses) form and style of worship, which has no precedent or basis in their own Anglican tradition,

Who cares? The OP can pray with his underwear on his head and that's not our business.

Quote
and, in adopting Orthodox trappings such as Byzantine-style vestments, are making a mockery of the Church.

I wonder why no one calls Eastern Catholics a mockery.

It was stupid from the OP to ask such a question on this forum but that's all. He can wear whatever he wants, call himself however he wants and pray however he wants not matter how bizarrely.

Strange, inappropriate, confusing seem to express this, I agree with Michal that mockery isn't what's going on , at least in Amrican usage it connotes ridicule or derision, and while I don't get Protestantism imitating an eastern appearance, I don't think they are mocking the eastern Church.
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« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2013, 08:56:24 AM »

You're missing the point, Alpo. These folks are trying to create a completely artificial (in all that word's senses) form and style of worship, which has no precedent or basis in their own Anglican tradition,

Who cares? The OP can pray with his underwear on his head and that's not our business.

Quote
and, in adopting Orthodox trappings such as Byzantine-style vestments, are making a mockery of the Church.

I wonder why no one calls Eastern Catholics a mockery.

It was stupid from the OP to ask such a question on this forum but that's all. He can wear whatever he wants, call himself however he wants and pray however he wants not matter how bizarrely.

I actually call Byzantine Catholics (especially the Melkites) even worst things than mockery.

The OP came here looking for our help to set up something that at least a few us feel is wrong. My reaction was not a knee jerk reaction, I decided to look around and see what this person was doing, and watching the video of the "vespers" was when I became extremely offended.

As LBK pointed out everything we do (vestment and the services) has meaning. When I see a "vespers" being served with everyone standing in a circle, they decide to begin with "Blessed is the Kingdom...", no incense is offered, and the menion is ignored I question what they are doing.

When the Evangelical Orthodox Church was looking for legitimacy, I have had more than one tell me they now appreciated those people who were aghast at what they were doing because it made them realize they had to become part of the The Church. If these Anglican's love the beauty of our services so much, then do them properly in the proper context, within The Church.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 09:28:54 AM by arimethea » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2013, 09:29:35 AM »

It just sounds like LARPing to me. Ignorant, misguided and probably a little offensive, but I object in principle to appropriations like this. I don't think non-Jews should have a seder or non-Native Americans participate in sweat lodges or other sacred ceremonies.
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« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2013, 09:59:28 AM »

The history of Uniatism is problematic and the intentions of those who accepted it centuries ago is certainly viewed as offensive to the Orthodox. But I take exception to the statement regarding Byzantine Catholics being engaged in "mockery." My own familial history is such that I realize two things. The first is that sincere, pious Greek Catholics do not worship as they do to "mock" us. Rather, they are misguided and on the wrong side of history. Secondly, Orthodox who view them with condescension or disdain, rather than exemplifying to them the impossibility of truly accepting, or picking and choosing Roman doctrine while believing themselves "Orthodox in union with Rome", closes the door to the light and hardens the hearts of Greek Catholics to the home that Orthodoxy offers them. Fortunately for us, the Ecumenical Patriarchate left a light burning and offered a path home to many thousands of alienated Greek Catholics with no recrimination but rather with love and rejoicing for the return of many prodigal  children.

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« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2013, 10:52:20 AM »

I, for one, am not offended if someone wants to spend hundreds of dollars to LARP as an Orthodox priest, but if you really want to spend money to do some cool LARPing, I highly recommend this.



If you insist sticking with the priest theme though, I would go for something more like this.

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« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2013, 10:52:24 AM »


Oh my, I see that the image says ordination now, but at first I really thought it was just an "altar call."

Do they do altar calls?
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« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2013, 11:00:49 AM »

The history of Uniatism is problematic and the intentions of those who accepted it centuries ago is certainly viewed as offensive to the Orthodox. But I take exception to the statement regarding Byzantine Catholics being engaged in "mockery." My own familial history is such that I realize two things. The first is that sincere, pious Greek Catholics do not worship as they do to "mock" us. Rather, they are misguided and on the wrong side of history. Secondly, Orthodox who view them with condescension or disdain, rather than exemplifying to them the impossibility of truly accepting, or picking and choosing Roman doctrine while believing themselves "Orthodox in union with Rome", closes the door to the light and hardens the hearts of Greek Catholics to the home that Orthodoxy offers them. Fortunately for us, the Ecumenical Patriarchate left a light burning and offered a path home to many thousands of alienated Greek Catholics with no recrimination but rather with love and rejoicing for the return of many prodigal  children.

I don't have an Eastern Catholic background, but I agree with these sentiments.

I also don't have the same feelings about "Eastern-Rite Anglicanism" as I do about the Georgian Baptists. The former is not trying to steal Eastern flocks through appropriating relevant liturgical items, whereas the latter is absolutely doing that. I see Eastern Rite Anglicans similar to how I see the Evanglical Orthodox Church - a commendable if incomplete attempt by modern post-Reformation groups to return to an earlier Christian heritage, and in doing so might actually find Orthodoxy by he grace of God just as much of the EOC did.

If they don't turn to Orthodoxy, then they're just another group there among all the others that do similar things that nobody gets into an uproar about. Unless they butcher their Eastern attempt, like that one Episcopalian church with the dancing saints, then taking offense makes sense.
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« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2013, 11:13:15 AM »

If you insist sticking with the priest theme though, I would go for something more like this.



Priests of Pellor are the shiz. Wink

I feel that what the OP is looking for is wrong for the same reason that makes impersonating a police officer a felony. Otherwise, it would be just cosplay, and thus simply stupid.
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« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2013, 11:13:29 AM »

mockery isn't what's going on , at least in Amrican usage it connotes ridicule or derision

I don't know what LBK meant here when she used the term, but I would add that "making a mockery of" does not necessarily mean the same thing as "mocking."  Someone can say that you are making a mockery of something without meaning that the person intends to mock it. For example, an Orthodox Christian might say something like: "Polygamy makes a mockery of marriage," but that doesn't mean that the people involved intend to mock marriage--in fact, they might have the highest regard for marriage, both of the monogamous and the polygamous variety. Perhaps they are indeed mocking marriage, but it wouldn't mean that they are intending to ridicule it or be derisive towards marriage.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 11:15:53 AM by Asteriktos » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2013, 11:27:12 AM »

Theory should prevail in this case. Emotional attachment to the East is nice if it keeps people in the Church  but ridiculous in this case.

No. Go role play somewhere else. Sorry, but we don't live in a world where the church has multiple rites. The Orthodox Church really has only the eastern rite and some incredibly small-scale western rite experimentation. It is perfectly legitimate for Orthodox Christians to take offense at what is more or less exclusively theirs being made into a mockery.

There is nothing in Christianity that is exclusively ours. Not a single thing. Welcome to the 21st century. Nowadays it is customarily allowed to have differing religious views. Hence Anglicans can wear whatever they want and getting offended because of that is simply childish.

You're missing the point, Alpo. These folks are trying to create a completely artificial (in all that word's senses) form and style of worship, which has no precedent or basis in their own Anglican tradition, and, in adopting Orthodox trappings such as Byzantine-style vestments, are making a mockery of the Church.

Hasn't enough damage been done with non-Orthodox dilettantes painting "icons" which are anything but? Why should these "Eastern Anglicans" be encouraged by Orthodox folks to play dress-ups with Orthodox vestments, and, in the case of the OP, call themselves "Orthodox in the Anglican communion"?

I'm not encouraging anyone. I'm just saying being silly isn't offending. Both Western and Eastern Anglicanism are silly but not offending.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 11:27:32 AM by Alpo » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2013, 01:25:01 PM »

You people are silly. There's nothing offensive in Eastern Anglicanism. It's silly but so is Western Anglicanism. Western vestments are ours too so if using Eastern vestments is offensive using Western vestments should be too.

We are not an Eastern church. We are the Catholic Church.

Good point.  I thought of that myself, but what makes this different for me is the lack of continuity.  For instance, in the Indian case I cited, that denomination broke away from the Orthodox Church in the 19th century in order to embrace Protestant theology, but kept the Syriac rite in a stripped down version.  They didn't create something out of nothing, they just adapted what they were already doing.  You can make the same argument for Anglicanism, they adapted what they were already doing (i.e., some type of Latin rite).  But Byzantine rite Anglicanism?  Why?  What for?  Unless there's some group of EO that became Anglican and wanted to maintain some form of Byzantine rite, how is it not "boutique Christianity"? 

Another consideration which these "Eastern Anglicans" probably haven't thought of: Vestments aren't just fancy duds worn to add "majesty" and "beauty" to a service, nor are they worn simply to set clergy apart from the laity. Each component of vestments has a specific purpose, meaning (often more than one) and history; clergy do not simply dress themselves in them and then step out and conduct the service. Each component is put on in order, with specific prayers said for each component. Prayers are also said at the removal of each component.

Well, I'm not sure this is a fair criticism, and I'm not just saying that because I'm still disturbed by that Georgian Baptist photo.  Tongue  Again, in the Indian case I cited, for all the reforming of the rites which they did, they did keep the traditional vestments, the vesting order and prayers, etc.  It's not necessarily the case that these Byzantine rite Anglicans just put on a costume without knowing how to do it or what it means.  They may well know enough to do some things properly, even if they do other things differently, whether that's on purpose (reforming rites to reflect their faith) or due to ignorance. 

Possibly tangential quibble: according to my best recollection of the OCA rubrics class I audited, the vesting prayers are only said for the Divine Liturgy.  At other services, they are simply put on without any prayer.  Maybe other EO traditions differ on this.  Certainly in our tradition, you always put them on with the proper prayers, whether for the Liturgy or any other service.   

Speaking more generally, I agree that, as an Orthodox, it's annoying to see changes and reforms that are done inconsistently, without an understanding of the rite "from the inside", but we do well not to paint with too broad a brush.  I really don't think we'll make any effective arguments without understanding where these Byzantine rite Anglicans are coming from and why they are doing what they are doing.  Right now, we're just protesting because "it's ours", "we are the Church", "Orthodoxy = Eastern", and "they're doing it wrong", but that's not good enough, actually it sounds rather juvenile.  As others have mentioned, nowadays anyone can do anything and buy anything to do it.  The OP didn't have to ask for an opinion here, he could've done his own research and figured it out on his own, and ordered vestments, and there's nothing any of us could do to prevent it.  I give him credit that he wanted our advice on "the real deal", even if our explanation of the "real deal" primarily involves our inviting him to become Orthodox.       
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« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2013, 01:48:01 PM »

how is it not "boutique Christianity"? 

It is. Hence the silliness. Still not offensive though.
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« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2013, 02:59:30 PM »

I love outraged people. It gives me a kick .
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« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2013, 05:02:46 PM »

Wuh, Eastern Rite Anglicanism? Is that like Tantric Mormonism or Presbyterian Taoism?
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« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2013, 05:05:55 PM »

I am looking to purchase a set of Byzantine-style vestments for my church. Has anyone here ever dealt with this place?

I do not understand why you need Byzantine-style vestments?

You originally posted this in the liturgy section, but I moved this topic here because the discussion your question raises is not a question for Liturgy, but rather Orthodox-Protestant Discussion.

Do you realize how offensive what you trying to do is to the Orthodox? It looks and sounds like a joke.

If you want to pray like the Orthodox, then that means accepting the theology of the Orthodox, and thus renouncing the errors of Anglicanism, and being received into the Orthodox Church. To dress up and pray like Orthodox without being in the faith is just playing, and that is something I know I find offensive.

Count me in as well in those who find offensive EasternAnglicanism's listed religious affiliation of "Orthodox Christian in the Anglican communion". Catechumens in Orthodoxy have the prerogative to call themselves Orthodox, even before their baptism or chrismation, but EasternAnglican, unless you are a catechumen of the Orthodox Church, you have no right to call yourself Orthodox.

As for seeking Byzantine vestments, masquerading as Orthodox clergy and servers is shameful and deceptive. Like these Georgian (the nation, not the American state) Baptists, who've also adopted icons and other Orthodox trappings:



Given that the Georgian Orthodox Church was established in about the fourth century AD, and has survived oppression under Soviet rule, the appropriation of Orthodox trappings by non-Orthodox groups is particularly odious.





Yes, they couldn't possibly be following St. Paul's example in good faith, unless you know more about their motives than I do.
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« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2013, 05:06:29 PM »

Wuh, Eastern Rite Anglicanism? Is that like Tantric Mormonism or Presbyterian Taoism?

This is could be a veritable copper mine, my friend!
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« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2013, 05:07:00 PM »

Wuh, Eastern Rite Anglicanism? Is that like Tantric Mormonism or Presbyterian Taoism?

Tantric Mormonism would be rather interesting, given the common Western association of Tantra with sex and of Mormons with polygamy.  Eastern rite Anglicanism seems pretty boring by comparison!  
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« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2013, 05:08:57 PM »

Wuh, Eastern Rite Anglicanism? Is that like Tantric Mormonism or Presbyterian Taoism?

Tantric Mormonism would be rather interesting, given the common Western association of Tantra with sex and of Mormons with polygamy.  Eastern rite Anglicanism seems pretty boring by comparison!  

If you ever met a Mormon and a self-proclaimed Tantric practitioner, you would this would end up being boring to the nth degree.
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« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2013, 07:53:12 PM »

mockery isn't what's going on , at least in Amrican usage it connotes ridicule or derision

I don't know what LBK meant here when she used the term, but I would add that "making a mockery of" does not necessarily mean the same thing as "mocking."  Someone can say that you are making a mockery of something without meaning that the person intends to mock it. For example, an Orthodox Christian might say something like: "Polygamy makes a mockery of marriage," but that doesn't mean that the people involved intend to mock marriage--in fact, they might have the highest regard for marriage, both of the monogamous and the polygamous variety. Perhaps they are indeed mocking marriage, but it wouldn't mean that they are intending to ridicule it or be derisive towards marriage.

Thank you, Asteriktos, this is precisely what I meant in my use of the term "make a mockery of".
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« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2013, 07:55:09 PM »

I am looking to purchase a set of Byzantine-style vestments for my church. Has anyone here ever dealt with this place?

I do not understand why you need Byzantine-style vestments?

You originally posted this in the liturgy section, but I moved this topic here because the discussion your question raises is not a question for Liturgy, but rather Orthodox-Protestant Discussion.

Do you realize how offensive what you trying to do is to the Orthodox? It looks and sounds like a joke.

If you want to pray like the Orthodox, then that means accepting the theology of the Orthodox, and thus renouncing the errors of Anglicanism, and being received into the Orthodox Church. To dress up and pray like Orthodox without being in the faith is just playing, and that is something I know I find offensive.

Count me in as well in those who find offensive EasternAnglicanism's listed religious affiliation of "Orthodox Christian in the Anglican communion". Catechumens in Orthodoxy have the prerogative to call themselves Orthodox, even before their baptism or chrismation, but EasternAnglican, unless you are a catechumen of the Orthodox Church, you have no right to call yourself Orthodox.

As for seeking Byzantine vestments, masquerading as Orthodox clergy and servers is shameful and deceptive. Like these Georgian (the nation, not the American state) Baptists, who've also adopted icons and other Orthodox trappings:



Given that the Georgian Orthodox Church was established in about the fourth century AD, and has survived oppression under Soviet rule, the appropriation of Orthodox trappings by non-Orthodox groups is particularly odious.





Yes, they couldn't possibly be following St. Paul's example in good faith, unless you know more about their motives than I do.

The fact that women are being ordained as clergy (those kneeling) and that women have been ordained (those standing and vested) should be quite enough to rethink that statement.  Wink
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« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2013, 08:33:23 PM »

You people are silly. There's nothing offensive in Eastern Anglicanism. It's silly but so is Western Anglicanism. Western vestments are ours too so if using Eastern vestments is offensive using Western vestments should be too.

We are not an Eastern church. We are the Catholic Church.

Amen and Amin
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« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2013, 08:34:48 PM »

Theory should prevail in this case. Emotional attachment to the East is nice if it keeps people in the Church  but ridiculous in this case.

No. Go role play somewhere else. Sorry, but we don't live in a world where the church has multiple rites. The Orthodox Church really has only the eastern rite and some incredibly small-scale western rite experimentation. It is perfectly legitimate for Orthodox Christians to take offense at what is more or less exclusively theirs being made into a mockery.

What world do you live in, one bereft of history and the countless saints who sanctified that history?
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« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2013, 08:37:08 PM »

Theory should prevail in this case. Emotional attachment to the East is nice if it keeps people in the Church  but ridiculous in this case.

No. Go role play somewhere else. Sorry, but we don't live in a world where the church has multiple rites. The Orthodox Church really has only the eastern rite and some incredibly small-scale western rite experimentation. It is perfectly legitimate for Orthodox Christians to take offense at what is more or less exclusively theirs being made into a mockery.

There is nothing in Christianity that is exclusively ours. Not a single thing. Welcome to the 21st century. Nowadays it is customarily allowed to have differing religious views. Hence Anglicans can wear whatever they want and getting offended because of that is simply childish.

All that is holy and true belongs to us. Truth does exist in material things--texts, icons, and vestments all illustrate truth. Holiness, however, is a different animal and cannot be conferred by all the vestments, icons, and liturgical texts in the world without participation in the life of Christ, which is the Orthodox Church and the holy sacraments.
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« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2013, 08:40:33 PM »

The history of Uniatism is problematic and the intentions of those who accepted it centuries ago is certainly viewed as offensive to the Orthodox. But I take exception to the statement regarding Byzantine Catholics being engaged in "mockery." My own familial history is such that I realize two things. The first is that sincere, pious Greek Catholics do not worship as they do to "mock" us. Rather, they are misguided and on the wrong side of history. Secondly, Orthodox who view them with condescension or disdain, rather than exemplifying to them the impossibility of truly accepting, or picking and choosing Roman doctrine while believing themselves "Orthodox in union with Rome", closes the door to the light and hardens the hearts of Greek Catholics to the home that Orthodoxy offers them. Fortunately for us, the Ecumenical Patriarchate left a light burning and offered a path home to many thousands of alienated Greek Catholics with no recrimination but rather with love and rejoicing for the return of many prodigal  children.



Good points.

I would add, however, that mockery lies not solely in the intention. Indeed, the intention to mock can be completely absent.
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« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2013, 08:53:11 PM »

Theory should prevail in this case. Emotional attachment to the East is nice if it keeps people in the Church  but ridiculous in this case.

No. Go role play somewhere else. Sorry, but we don't live in a world where the church has multiple rites. The Orthodox Church really has only the eastern rite and some incredibly small-scale western rite experimentation. It is perfectly legitimate for Orthodox Christians to take offense at what is more or less exclusively theirs being made into a mockery.

What world do you live in, one bereft of history and the countless saints who sanctified that history?

The real one.
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« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2013, 09:26:08 PM »

Theory should prevail in this case. Emotional attachment to the East is nice if it keeps people in the Church  but ridiculous in this case.

No. Go role play somewhere else. Sorry, but we don't live in a world where the church has multiple rites. The Orthodox Church really has only the eastern rite and some incredibly small-scale western rite experimentation. It is perfectly legitimate for Orthodox Christians to take offense at what is more or less exclusively theirs being made into a mockery.

What world do you live in, one bereft of history and the countless saints who sanctified that history?

The real one.

LOL. So you are a materialist. Okay.
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« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2013, 09:29:08 PM »

Weird. A thread about Anglicans and no one has said "priestess" yet.
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« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2013, 09:33:40 PM »

Theory should prevail in this case. Emotional attachment to the East is nice if it keeps people in the Church  but ridiculous in this case.

No. Go role play somewhere else. Sorry, but we don't live in a world where the church has multiple rites. The Orthodox Church really has only the eastern rite and some incredibly small-scale western rite experimentation. It is perfectly legitimate for Orthodox Christians to take offense at what is more or less exclusively theirs being made into a mockery.

What world do you live in, one bereft of history and the countless saints who sanctified that history?

The real one.

LOL. So you are a materialist. Okay.

No, just not a role-player.
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« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2013, 12:43:11 AM »

I love outraged people. It gives me a kick .
There's almost no cheaper drug than outrage. Offense is the crack version to outrage's cocaine.
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« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2013, 09:22:25 AM »

It is funny that irl, I never come across Orthodox or Catholics that are anywhere close to as venomous as those this board.
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« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2013, 09:29:53 AM »

It is funny that irl, I never come across Orthodox or Catholics that are anywhere close to as venomous as those this board.

We're all Flame Warriors here. Cheesy
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« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2013, 02:58:12 PM »

Wuh, Eastern Rite Anglicanism? Is that like Tantric Mormonism or Presbyterian Taoism?

If you can convince an Anglican church to put a Byzantine rite in their BCP, then, yeah. But nobody seriously thinks that's going to happen.
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« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2013, 03:06:08 PM »

Wuh, Eastern Rite Anglicanism? Is that like Tantric Mormonism or Presbyterian Taoism?

If you can convince an Anglican church to put a Byzantine rite in their BCP, then, yeah. But nobody seriously thinks that's going to happen.


Maybe it's high time they printed a "Book of Uncommon Prayer" - the RC's have the "extra-ordinary rite".
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« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2013, 09:27:23 PM »

It is funny that irl, I never come across Orthodox or Catholics that are anywhere close to as venomous as those this board.

I do hope you know I'm just trolling/joking.
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« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2013, 10:10:02 PM »

It is funny that irl, I never come across Orthodox or Catholics that are anywhere close to as venomous as those this board.

Two things-- First, one difference here is that people in real life usually keep nasty stuff to themselves, or keep it to a select few they trust share similar views; while people on the internet are more open about blurting things out (so to speak). Are people on the internet more a--holish, or more honest? Or both? Second, one other factor that might be at play here is that people on a board like this are generally going to be passionate about this kinda stuff. That's why they're here.

So, let's say you talk to 100 Orthodox/Catholics in real life, and no one says anything nasty about contraception or Baptists or atonement theory. Maybe 10 of them think you're a disgusting heretic for believing x, y and z, but just wait till they get home before crap-talking you. The other 90 simply don't care, they're more interested in how the donuts taste (which is a more normal mindset). Yet, cross them regarding something that does interest them, and I bet their would indeed be nastiness, in their head at the very least.
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« Reply #51 on: June 26, 2013, 10:17:34 PM »

It is funny that irl, I never come across Orthodox or Catholics that are anywhere close to as venomous as those this board.

Two things-- First, one difference here is that people in real life usually keep nasty stuff to themselves, or keep it to a select few they trust share similar views; while people on the internet are more open about blurting things out (so to speak). Are people on the internet more a--holish, or more honest? Or both? Second, one other factor that might be at play here is that people on a board like this are generally going to be passionate about this kinda stuff. That's why they're here.

Well, I must give him some credit since this is probably the worst religious board I've seen for genuine inquirers occasionally being shot down brutally without restraint. For another Orthodox board to use as a counterexample, TAW (The Ancient Way on Christianforums.com) isn't nearly such a hostile environment most of the time.
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« Reply #52 on: June 26, 2013, 10:17:59 PM »

The other 90 simply don't care, they're more interested in how the donuts taste (which is a more normal mindset). Yet, cross them regarding something that does interest them, and I bet their would indeed be nastiness, in their head at the very least.

Oh, the nastiness flows from their heads to their surroundings when they're provoked by just the right thing.  

Since you brought it up, I once saw a man start a fist fight during coffee hour because the doughnuts ran out before he could get one.  He was a dues paying member and also left an offering in the weekly collection on top of that: he was entitled to his doughnut.  Smiley  
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« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2013, 10:35:22 PM »

Well, I must give him some credit since this is probably the worst religious board I've seen for genuine inquirers occasionally being shot down brutally without restraint. For another Orthodox board to use as a counterexample, TAW (The Ancient Way on Christianforums.com) isn't nearly such a hostile environment most of the time.

Sad I am sorry to hear this. Maybe because I've been here so long, or because I'm so comfortable here, I don't recognize it, perhaps even when I do it myself.

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« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2013, 10:35:43 PM »

Oh, the nastiness flows from their heads to their surroundings when they're provoked by just the right thing.  

Since you brought it up, I once saw a man start a fist fight during coffee hour because the doughnuts ran out before he could get one.  He was a dues paying member and also left an offering in the weekly collection on top of that: he was entitled to his doughnut.  Smiley  

 Shocked
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« Reply #55 on: June 27, 2013, 08:01:53 AM »

Well, I must give him some credit since this is probably the worst religious board I've seen for genuine inquirers occasionally being shot down brutally without restraint. For another Orthodox board to use as a counterexample, TAW (The Ancient Way on Christianforums.com) isn't nearly such a hostile environment most of the time.

Sad I am sorry to hear this. Maybe because I've been here so long, or because I'm so comfortable here, I don't recognize it, perhaps even when I do it myself.


I like it here and don't mind the heated debates.  Heck, I have been known to engage in a few tussels myself around here, but I would never encourage someone who was just starting their inquiry into Orthodoxy to come here, they would be running as fast as they could from it in no time flat.  I wince when I see new posters on here asking serious questions, because I know the thread is probably going to turn into a flame war and some variation of the word heresy will be in at least 25% of the posts.  I totally understand why many priests discourage catechumens from searching out Orthodoxy online.
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« Reply #56 on: June 27, 2013, 08:14:29 AM »

Wuh, Eastern Rite Anglicanism? Is that like Tantric Mormonism or Presbyterian Taoism?

If you can convince an Anglican church to put a Byzantine rite in their BCP, then, yeah. But nobody seriously thinks that's going to happen.


Maybe it's high time they printed a "Book of Uncommon Prayer" - the RC's have the "extra-ordinary rite".

We have them, actually, in the form of the various missals and in the supplemental books containing trial usages. But these both have the backing of our own tradition, which is to say, we actually know how to do them. I think there is a fair degree of Anglican understanding of Orthodox spirituality, but liturgical understanding is a different story. For instance, if an Anglican church did a Byzantine rite, the acolytes would probably tend to move about like a marine honor guard.
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« Reply #57 on: June 27, 2013, 08:19:18 AM »

Well, I must give him some credit since this is probably the worst religious board I've seen for genuine inquirers occasionally being shot down brutally without restraint. For another Orthodox board to use as a counterexample, TAW (The Ancient Way on Christianforums.com) isn't nearly such a hostile environment most of the time.

Sad I am sorry to hear this. Maybe because I've been here so long, or because I'm so comfortable here, I don't recognize it, perhaps even when I do it myself.


I like it here and don't mind the heated debates.  Heck, I have been known to engage in a few tussels myself around here, but I would never encourage someone who was just starting their inquiry into Orthodoxy to come here, they would be running as fast as they could from it in no time flat.  I wince when I see new posters on here asking serious questions, because I know the thread is probably going to turn into a flame war and some variation of the word heresy will be in at least 25% of the posts.  I totally understand why many priests discourage catechumens from searching out Orthodoxy online.

The problem with the OP is that he has listed his religious affiliation as "Orthodox Christian", his jurisdiction as "Anglican Communion", and asks for advice in obtaining Orthodox vestments for liturgical use. Is it any wonder that many of us have responded as we have?

I'll say it again: If he and his group is genuinely interested in becoming Orthodox, then the proper way to do so is to join the catechumenate, and be received into the Church by baptism or chrismation. The improper way is to concoct a bogus "Anglican eastern rite", and make use of Orthodox trappings to give some sort of "legitimacy" as well as exoticism to this "rite".
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« Reply #58 on: June 27, 2013, 08:24:01 AM »

Well, I must give him some credit since this is probably the worst religious board I've seen for genuine inquirers occasionally being shot down brutally without restraint. For another Orthodox board to use as a counterexample, TAW (The Ancient Way on Christianforums.com) isn't nearly such a hostile environment most of the time.

Sad I am sorry to hear this. Maybe because I've been here so long, or because I'm so comfortable here, I don't recognize it, perhaps even when I do it myself.


I like it here and don't mind the heated debates.  Heck, I have been known to engage in a few tussels myself around here, but I would never encourage someone who was just starting their inquiry into Orthodoxy to come here, they would be running as fast as they could from it in no time flat.  I wince when I see new posters on here asking serious questions, because I know the thread is probably going to turn into a flame war and some variation of the word heresy will be in at least 25% of the posts.  I totally understand why many priests discourage catechumens from searching out Orthodoxy online.

The problem with the OP is that he has listed his religious affiliation as "Orthodox Christian", his jurisdiction as "Anglican Communion", and asks for advice in obtaining Orthodox vestments for liturgical use. Is it any wonder that many of us have responded as we have?

I'll say it again: If he and his group is genuinely interested in becoming Orthodox, then the proper way to do so is to join the catechumenate, and be received into the Church by baptism or chrismation. The improper way is to concoct a bogus "Anglican eastern rite", and make use of Orthodox trappings to give some sort of "legitimacy" as well as exoticism to this "rite".
I can't say that I disagree with you.  If you look, I posted some pretty mocking things in this very thread. I have very little time for someone who wants to pretend to be Orthodox but not submit themselves to the actual Church.  I was more refering, however, to the contest on what really unkind words we could come up with for Easter Rite Catholics as well as the numerous other threads on here where we mostly just mock and rip each other apart. I'm just as guilty as the next person, so I'm not being condesending, just reflective.
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« Reply #59 on: June 27, 2013, 11:04:26 AM »

Well, I must give him some credit since this is probably the worst religious board I've seen for genuine inquirers occasionally being shot down brutally without restraint. For another Orthodox board to use as a counterexample, TAW (The Ancient Way on Christianforums.com) isn't nearly such a hostile environment most of the time.

So why are you still here?

Maybe because I'm not an inquirer posting questions to get shot down?
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« Reply #60 on: June 27, 2013, 02:12:09 PM »

Well, I must give him some credit since this is probably the worst religious board I've seen for genuine inquirers occasionally being shot down brutally without restraint. For another Orthodox board to use as a counterexample, TAW (The Ancient Way on Christianforums.com) isn't nearly such a hostile environment most of the time.

So why are you still here?

That's the way to show him how wrong he is when he says that people are hostile here!  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #61 on: June 27, 2013, 08:09:02 PM »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWIEdBJMIpA

I hope Byzantine rite Anglicanism is done better than this. 

An eclectic mix of East and West Syriac, Byzantine, and modern Roman rite rubrics and texts (and omissions thereof!) in what is supposedly an adaptation of the East Syriac rite.  And surrounded by flags, kitsch, and other paraphernalia.  And what's up with those altar cloths?  Ugh...

But at least the vestments he's wearing are normal.       
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« Reply #62 on: July 01, 2013, 07:45:25 AM »

This tangent on what to call Eastern Catholics has been moved to Orthodox-Other Christian Private Discussions.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=52203.0
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« Reply #63 on: July 01, 2013, 09:13:23 AM »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWIEdBJMIpA

I hope Byzantine rite Anglicanism is done better than this. 

An eclectic mix of East and West Syriac, Byzantine, and modern Roman rite rubrics and texts (and omissions thereof!) in what is supposedly an adaptation of the East Syriac rite.  And surrounded by flags, kitsch, and other paraphernalia.  And what's up with those altar cloths?  Ugh...

But at least the vestments he's wearing are normal.       

You want wacky liturgy? There's always St. Gregory of Nyssa, San Francisco.
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« Reply #64 on: July 01, 2013, 10:01:45 AM »

You want wacky liturgy? There's always St. Gregory of Nyssa, San Francisco.

They obviously like dancing.
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« Reply #65 on: July 01, 2013, 10:43:56 AM »

Wuh, Eastern Rite Anglicanism? Is that like Tantric Mormonism or Presbyterian Taoism?

If you can convince an Anglican church to put a Byzantine rite in their BCP, then, yeah. But nobody seriously thinks that's going to happen.


Why not?
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« Reply #66 on: July 01, 2013, 03:05:26 PM »

Wuh, Eastern Rite Anglicanism? Is that like Tantric Mormonism or Presbyterian Taoism?

If you can convince an Anglican church to put a Byzantine rite in their BCP, then, yeah. But nobody seriously thinks that's going to happen.


Why not?

Basically two reasons. First, for all the abuse the 1979 BCP gets, the basic structure of its eucharistic liturgy has remained absolutely fixed in every trial version or alternate text since. It is very much a western rite with very little "surplus" or repeated material. Second, what interest there is now in making changes seems to be largely directed towards, if I may be blunt, eccentric if not heretical wording within existing rites. There have been a few stabs at writing some supplemental prayer material but other than a current fashion for responsive forms there's no real eastern flavor to any of it. There's no interest at all outside of A-C circles in restoring old rites.  Things are somewhat better in most of the other Anglican churches (except NZ, which likewise has gone in for odd language of late).
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