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Author Topic: What do Orthodox think when people say the Pope is the antichrist?  (Read 2104 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2013, 11:37:09 AM »

I cant imagine any Orthodox Christian thinking the Pope is the AntiChrist......
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« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2013, 11:43:44 AM »

"In the history of the human race there have been three principal falls: that of Adam, that of Judas, and that of the pope." Saint Iustin Popović (Serbian Cyrillic: Jустин Поповић) (6 April 1894, Vranje - 7 April 1979, Ćelije Monastery, Lelić)
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« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2013, 11:54:45 AM »

"In the history of the human race there have been three principal falls: that of Adam, that of Judas, and that of the pope." Saint Iustin Popović (Serbian Cyrillic: Jустин Поповић) (6 April 1894, Vranje - 7 April 1979, Ćelije Monastery, Lelić)

Interesting ... but also open to different interpretations.
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« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2013, 12:31:02 PM »

"In the history of the human race there have been three principal falls: that of Adam, that of Judas, and that of the pope." Saint Iustin Popović (Serbian Cyrillic: Jустин Поповић) (6 April 1894, Vranje - 7 April 1979, Ćelije Monastery, Lelić)

Interesting ... but also open to different interpretations.

you can read it in details here : http://razilazenje.blogspot.ro/2007/02/st-justin-of-elije-three-principal.html

you can also read his view on ecclesiology and papacy here:
http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/papism.aspx
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« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2013, 12:41:54 PM »

And like those of the Pope, the writings of a Saint are not infallible.
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« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2013, 12:52:39 PM »

And like those of the Pope, the writings of a Saint are not infallible.

Are you saying St Justin Popovitch was not inspired and moved by the Holy Ghost when he wrote this :

Quote
In the European West, Christianity has gradually transformed into humanism. For a long time and arduously, the God-Man diminished, and has been changed, narrowed, and finally reduced to a man: to the infallible man in Rome and the equally "infallible" man in London and Berlin. Thus did papism come into being, taking everything from Christ, along with Protestantism, which asks the least from Christ, and often nothing. Both in papism and in Protestantism, man has been put in the place of the God-Man, both as the highest value and as the highest criterion. A painful and sad correction of the God-Man's work and teaching has been accomplished. Steadily and stubbornly papism has tried to substitute the God-Man with man, until in the dogma about the infallibility of the pope—a man, the God-Man was once and for all replaced with ephemeral, "infallible" man; because with this dogma, the pope was decisively and clearly declared as something higher than not only man, but the holy Apostles, the holy Fathers, and the holy Ecumenical councils. With this kind of a departure from the God-Man, from the ecumenical Church as the God-Man organism, papism surpassed Luther, the founder of Protestantism. Thus, the first radical protest in the name of humanism against the God-Man Christ, and his God-Man organism—the Church—should be looked for in papism, not in Lutheranism. Papism is actually the first and the oldest Protestantism.

We should not do this ourselves. Papism indeed is the most radical Protestantism, because it has transferred the foundation of Christianity from the eternal God-Man to ephemeral man. And it has proclaimed this as the paramount dogma, which means: the paramount value, the paramount measure of all beings and things in the world. And the Protestants merely accepted this dogma in its essence, and worked it out in terrifying magnitude and detail. Essentially, Protestantism is nothing other than a generally applied papism. For in Protestantism, the fundamental principle of papism is brought to life by each man individually. After the example of the infallible man in Rome, each Protestant is a cloned infallible man, because he pretends to personal infallibility in matters of faith. It can be said: Protestantism is a vulgarized papism, only stripped of mystery (i.e., sacramentality), authority and power.

Through the reduction of Christianity, with all its eternal God-Man qualities, to man, Western Christianity has been turned into humanism. This may seem paradoxical, but it is true in its irresistible and unerasable historical reality. Because Western Christianity is, in its essence, the most decisive humanism; and because it has proclaimed man as infallible, and has turned the God-Man religion into a humanist religion. And that this is so is shown by the fact that the God-Man has been driven to the heavens, while his place on earth has been filled with his replacement, Vicarius Christi—the pope. What a tragic piece of illogic: to establish a replacement for the everywhere-present God and the Lord Christ! But this piece of illogic has been incarnated in Western Christianity: the Church has been transformed into a state, the pope has become a ruler, bishops have been proclaimed princes, priests have become leaders of clerical parties, the faithful have been proclaimed papal subjects. The Gospel has been replaced with the Vatican’s compilation of canon law; Evangelical ethic and methods of love have been replaced with casuistry, Jesuitry and the "holy" Inquisition. What does all this mean? With the systematic removal and destruction of everything that does not bow to the pope, even with forced conversions to the papal faith, and the burning of sinners for the glory of the meek and the mild Lord Jesus!

There is no doubt that all these facts converge into one irresistibly logical conclusion: in the West there is no Church and no God-Man, which is why there is no true God-Man society in which men are mortal brothers and immortal fellows. Humanistic Christianity is actually the most decisive protest and uprising against the God-Man Christ and all the Evangelical, God-Man values and norms. And even here is evident European man’s favored tendency, to reduce everything to man as the fundamental value and the fundamental measure. And behind that stands one idol: Menschliches Allzumenschliches. With the reduction of Christianity to humanism, Christianity has been no doubt, simplified, but also at the same time—destroyed! Now that the "gleischaltung" of Christianity with humanism has been accomplished, some in Europe are seeking a return to the God-Man Christ. However, the cries of individuals in the Protestant world—"Zuruck zum Jesus! Back to Jesus!"—are empty cries in the dark night of humanistic Christianity, which has abandoned the values and the measures of God-Man and is now suffocating in desperation and impotence. While from the depths of centuries past reverberate the bitter words of the melancholic prophet of God, Jeremiah: "Accursed is the man who puts his confidence in man!..."

In a broader historical perspective, the Western dogma about man’s infallibility is nothing other than an attempt to revive and immortalize dying humanism. It is the last transformation and final glorification of humanism. After the rationalistic Enlightenment of the 18th century and the shortsighted positivism of the 19th century, nothing else was left to European humanism than to fall apart in its own impotence and contradictions. But in that tragic moment, religious humanism came to its aid with its dogma about the infallibility of man saved European humanism from imminent death. And, although dogmatized, Western Christian humanism could not help absorbing all the fatal contradictions of European humanism, which are united in one single desire: to exile God-Man from the earth. Because the most important thing for humanism is for man to be the highest value and the highest measure. Man, not God-Man.

According to our own Orthodox feeling: Christianity is only Christianity through the God-Man, through His God-Man ideology and God-Man methods. That is the fundamental truth for the sake of which no compromises can be made. Only as the God-Man is Christ the highest value and the highest measure. One should be truthful and consistent to the end: if Christ is not the God-Man, then he is the most impudent fraud, because he proclaimed himself as God and the Lord. But the Evangelical historical reality irrefutably shows and proves that Jesus Christ is in everything and in all things the perfect God-Man. Therefore, one cannot be a Christian without a belief in Christ as God-Man and in the Church as His God-Man Body, in which He left His entire Miraculous Person. The saving and life-giving power of Christ’s Church lays in the eternally-living and all-present personality of the God-Man. Any substitution of the God-Man with a man, and any winnowing of Christianity in order to pick out only that which pleases a man’s individual preference and reason, turns Christianity into shallow and impotent humanism.


Do you disagree with him?
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« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2013, 12:54:01 PM »

Like I said...

When my patron saint says it I nod respectfully, though in embarrassment. Otherwise I just shake my head.  police
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« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2013, 12:56:56 PM »

Like I said...

When my patron saint says it I nod respectfully, though in embarrassment. Otherwise I just shake my head.  police

Your patron saint being?
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« Reply #53 on: July 02, 2013, 12:58:34 PM »

St. Justin Popovich
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« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2013, 12:58:51 PM »

THe only people who say this are hard-core Lutherans who believe every word Martin Luther ever said.  Since I know only a few hard-core Lutherans of this variety, I just smile politely and walk away.

I've met Calvinists who've said the same thing. But then again, Calvinists are a rather unusual bunch altogether. Give me Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, or the non-existent American atheist bogeyman, but keep the Calvinists away. Former I could handle, but something about the latter really creeps me out. I'm not trying to be offensive, but I get a really strange, uncomfortable vibe whenever I'm around Calvinists.
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« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2013, 01:04:47 PM »

St. Justin Popovich

To my knowledge there are many other Orthodox fathers who wrote on this topic and against the Papacy.
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« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2013, 01:44:47 PM »

St. Justin Popovich

To my knowledge there are many other Orthodox fathers who wrote on this topic and against the Papacy.

There is a universe of distinction between solid Orthodox  opposition to Roman Catholic ecclesiology, including Papal supremacy and infallibility and blithely proclaiming "the" pope as anti-Christ.
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« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2013, 02:18:37 PM »

The pope was obviously influenced by demons when he declared himself universal, certainly when also proclaiming himself infallible!
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« Reply #58 on: July 02, 2013, 08:17:13 PM »

And like those of the Pope, the writings of a Saint are not infallible.

I'm sure St. Justin is glad to receive your complaints about things he wrote.
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« Reply #59 on: July 02, 2013, 08:30:03 PM »

The pope was obviously influenced by demons when he declared himself universal, certainly when also proclaiming himself infallible!

That'll shut 'em up!  Tongue
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« Reply #60 on: July 03, 2013, 09:51:06 AM »

And like those of the Pope, the writings of a Saint are not infallible.

I'm sure St. Justin is glad to receive your complaints about things he wrote.

And just what is incorrect in my statement? If you take all of the apologetics and polemical writings of all known saints - and cherry pick quotes you like, you no doubt could form your own sect. I didn't "complain" about St. Justin's writings, I just noted that they don't necessarily stand as a definitive response to the OPs question.

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