Author Topic: How do they do it?  (Read 791 times)

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Offline Seraphim98

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How do they do it?
« on: June 24, 2013, 01:58:53 AM »
Here's a question I've never seen asked or addressed, but I am curious, though I don't know if anyone on these boards would know. The question is this how do demons or angels even for that matter effect material objects.  They do not have material bodes (though some angels show up embodied in some fashion sometimes). It's a delicate area…but lets say one has a poltergeist. Most of us would agree that this is some variety of demonic activity…my question is how…what is it that they have that can invisibly grasp and move a physical object? It's not so hard to figure out the basics of the stuff they do to tempt and influence people, but it puzzles me what it is they do to actually physically express themselves…either with objects…or with some physical attacks/scratches.  Without physical substance what is it they are doing to be able to interact materially with this world?  I know they do it…but I've never seen any sort of discussion that attempts to answer the question how.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 01:59:48 AM by Seraphim98 »

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: How do they do it?
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2013, 02:44:53 AM »
Fwiw, we discussed the subject in general a bit in this thread. I don't know the answer for certain, but it seems that while they are considered immaterial in comparison to humans, rocks, etc., they are in some sense less than fully immaterial in the same sense that God is. Here are a few passages from St. John of Damascus on this:

The angel, although not contained in place with figured form as is body, yet is spoken of as being in place because he has a mental presence and energises in accordance with his nature, and is not elsewhere but has his mental limitations there where he energises. For it is impossible to energise at the same time in different places. For to God alone belongs the power of energising everywhere at the same time. The angel energises in different places by the quickness of his nature and the promptness and speed by which he can change his place: but the Deity, Who is everywhere and above all, energises at the same time in diverse ways with one simple energy. Further the soul is bound up with the body. whole with whole and not part with part: and it is not contained by the body but contains it as fire does iron, and being in it energises with its own proper energies. That which is comprehended in place or time or apprehension is circumscribed: while that which is contained by none of these is uncircumscribed. Wherefore the Deity alone is uncircumscribed, being without beginning and without end, and containing all things, and in no wise apprehended. For He alone is incomprehensible and unbounded, within no one's knowledge and contemplated by Himself alone. But the angel is circumscribed alike in time (for His being had commencement) and in place (but mental space, as we said above) and in apprehension. For they know somehow the nature of each other and have their bounds perfectly defined by the Creator. Bodies in short are circumscribed both in beginning and end, and bodily place and apprehension." - St. John of Damascus, Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith 1.13

"In this way, then, God brought into existence mental essence, by which I mean, angels and all the heavenly orders. For these clearly have a mental and incorporeal nature: "incorporeal" I mean in comparison with the denseness of matter. For the Deity alone in reality is immaterial and incorporeal. But further He created in the same way sensible essence, that is heaven and earth and the intermediate region; and so He created both the kind of being that is of His own nature (for the nature that has to do with reason is related to God, and apprehensible by mind alone), and the kind which, inasmuch as it clearly falls under the province of the senses, is separated from Him by the greatest interval. And it was also fit that there should be a mixture of both kinds of being, as a token of still greater wisdom and of the opulence of the Divine expenditure as regards natures, as Gregorius, the expounder of God's being and ways, puts it, and to be a sort of connecting link between the visible and invisible natures." - St. John of Damascus, Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith 2.12