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orthonorm
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« Reply #90 on: July 03, 2013, 01:17:34 PM »

Finally, my mom gave me a piece of advice when I came "of age".  When I finally am thinking about getting serious, I need to sit down to a card game with the fella.  LOL!  I laughed when she said that.  She was serious.  She said that in playing the "game" of cards, he will show his true self.  Will he be overly competitive, combative, throw a hissy fit when he loses, try to cheat, etc.  Or will he be mild mannered in the game, even be willing to lose, so, you could win.  It works like a charm.  Wink

Liza, cause I know you are dying to know.

I am a very, very, very, sore winner, unless being polite and the like means more long term opportunities to fleece someone.

I am an incredibly gracious loser.

Based on this, let me if and when our nuptials will be.
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« Reply #91 on: July 03, 2013, 02:32:06 PM »


LOL!  You'd never be bored!!!  Wink

....and I can cook!
« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 02:32:22 PM by LizaSymonenko » Logged

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« Reply #92 on: July 03, 2013, 02:34:18 PM »


If you intend on marrying someone without having dated, that is madness. Perhaps a wonderful madness occasionally, but madness all the same.


So, now I'm confused by what you are saying.

You said before that she should not date the one who might be a potential spouse....and then you say that someone who marries without dating is mad.

Which is it?
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« Reply #93 on: July 03, 2013, 02:43:11 PM »


If you intend on marrying someone without having dated, that is madness. Perhaps a wonderful madness occasionally, but madness all the same.


So, now I'm confused by what you are saying.

You said before that she should not date the one who might be a potential spouse....and then you say that someone who marries without dating is mad.

Which is it?


It seems some around here believe marriage should be the goal of a specific date.

In other words to be clear about the insanity around here:

Before you go on a date with someone, you should be intending to marry them.

That is crazy. At least at this time in the US.

But I don't think you should marry someone, for love, unless you have dated them.

Dating might be the prelude to marriage, but a single date shouldn't be.
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« Reply #94 on: July 03, 2013, 04:11:31 PM »


If you intend on marrying someone without having dated, that is madness. Perhaps a wonderful madness occasionally, but madness all the same.


So, now I'm confused by what you are saying.

You said before that she should not date the one who might be a potential spouse....and then you say that someone who marries without dating is mad.

Which is it?


It seems some around here believe marriage should be the goal of a specific date.

In other words to be clear about the insanity around here:

Before you go on a date with someone, you should be intending to marry them.

That is crazy. At least at this time in the US.

But I don't think you should marry someone, for love, unless you have dated them.

Dating might be the prelude to marriage, but a single date shouldn't be.

Ah, I see.   However, just because it's "not done" in the U.S. does not mean it shouldn't be done.

You don't go on one date, and the very next step is marriage.  However, that first date is to give you a look on whether that person is someone whom you would possibly see marrying.  If so, than comes the second date.  If not, it stops there.

If the person is not marriage material, what is the purpose of continuing to date them?

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« Reply #95 on: July 03, 2013, 05:32:30 PM »


If you intend on marrying someone without having dated, that is madness. Perhaps a wonderful madness occasionally, but madness all the same.


So, now I'm confused by what you are saying.

You said before that she should not date the one who might be a potential spouse....and then you say that someone who marries without dating is mad.

Which is it?


It seems some around here believe marriage should be the goal of a specific date.

In other words to be clear about the insanity around here:

Before you go on a date with someone, you should be intending to marry them.

That is crazy. At least at this time in the US.

But I don't think you should marry someone, for love, unless you have dated them.

Dating might be the prelude to marriage, but a single date shouldn't be.

Ah, I see.   However, just because it's "not done" in the U.S. does not mean it shouldn't be done.

You don't go on one date, and the very next step is marriage.  However, that first date is to give you a look on whether that person is someone whom you would possibly see marrying.  If so, than comes the second date.  If not, it stops there.

If the person is not marriage material, what is the purpose of continuing to date them?



If what is done outside the US amounts to some odd notion of women being treated as property moved from one man to the next or one community to the next (I don't care if she if communal or private property) then yeah, it shouldn't be done, and certainly not here.
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« Reply #96 on: July 03, 2013, 05:37:08 PM »


If you intend on marrying someone without having dated, that is madness. Perhaps a wonderful madness occasionally, but madness all the same.


So, now I'm confused by what you are saying.

You said before that she should not date the one who might be a potential spouse....and then you say that someone who marries without dating is mad.

Which is it?


It seems some around here believe marriage should be the goal of a specific date.

In other words to be clear about the insanity around here:

Before you go on a date with someone, you should be intending to marry them.

That is crazy. At least at this time in the US.

But I don't think you should marry someone, for love, unless you have dated them.

Dating might be the prelude to marriage, but a single date shouldn't be.

Ah, I see.   However, just because it's "not done" in the U.S. does not mean it shouldn't be done.

You don't go on one date, and the very next step is marriage.  However, that first date is to give you a look on whether that person is someone whom you would possibly see marrying.  If so, than comes the second date.  If not, it stops there.

If the person is not marriage material, what is the purpose of continuing to date them?



You date to learn how to begin to understand any of the above.

If you think the girl meeting a boy at age 14 or whatever at the HS football game should be thinking about marriage, I dunno, sounds crazy to me.

You learn by doing and outside exceptional cases marriage is still a product of happenstance and stupidity in the US, thank God.

But, hey as dating services increase, google will play matchmaker soon for everyone and we can get rid of this whole "love" thing that most folks seem to have a problem with around here, unless it is denuded of any physicality.

Have mercy on our souls.

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« Reply #97 on: July 03, 2013, 05:41:03 PM »


I'm all for love...but, you have to admit, the 14 year old girl dating the football star, doesn't truly know the meaning of "love"...don't you think?

I wasn't talking really about kids, but, about adults dating.  Adults usually date to either find a spouse, or a "boyfriend/girlfriend" with no intention of getting married, just to have a good time.

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« Reply #98 on: July 03, 2013, 06:10:45 PM »

You two are talking past each other and I suspect it's mostly the fault of orthonorm's deliberate unclarity.

There are two positions on this point that I think are not in conflict, though they appear to be if either is expressed in ambiguous terms, which is, after all, orthonorm's schtick.

1: It is unreasonable to expect that each individual date be entered into subsequent to forming a settled intention to one day marry the person dating.

2: It is reasonable, within an Orthodox Christian context at least, for the whole process of dating, as a whole, including all the individual dates one may go on and all the individual partners one may date, to be ordered toward the goal of one day finding and marrying someone.

Do with that what you will; with any luck it'll at least advance the cause of a real discussion with mutual understanding on some level rather than bemused obtusity on one side and growing frustration on the other.

But maybe not.
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« Reply #99 on: July 03, 2013, 08:16:29 PM »

Verily it is without the possibility of a doubt that your articulation of words in the particular order manifested here is a much clearer exposition of the subject matter at hand than the purposely oblique and vague ramblings of this orthonorm fellow.

If my last statement sounds wordy you're probably dumb.
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« Reply #100 on: July 03, 2013, 08:18:28 PM »

LOL.

Yeah, I noticed that a bit myself.

The difference being that while I may be using a somewhat awkward phrasing, my choice of words is not chosen with the conscious intention to confuse others for my amusement.
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« Reply #101 on: July 03, 2013, 08:47:50 PM »

Verily it is without the possibility of a doubt that your articulation of words in the particular order manifested here is a much clearer exposition of the subject matter at hand than the purposely oblique and vague ramblings of this orthonorm fellow.

If my last statement sounds wordy you're probably dumb.

That's scary. Stop, before you can't turn back!   Shocked
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« Reply #102 on: July 03, 2013, 11:34:07 PM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever. Spat out by Christians and the like to sounds wise but never really answers what could be a good mate. (i.e. heard that one 40 times and followed it since 6 years before I had an opportunity to have a first date.)

Why is this bad advice?  What is your mission in dating?  Is it not to find a spouse?  I wouldn't waste my time, efforts, not to mention emotions on someone whom I didn't see as a future husband.
It's bad advice because it adds nothing to what I am doing already. I want advice I didn't hear several years before my first date. This does not mean that I want someone to say I should date without respect for a future marriage, but I want something that adds to it. If I was not trying to follow such advice already, I would not have started this thread. So every time someone tells me that, it changes nothing in my life and answers no question and helps no more than anything I have already tried to do.
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« Reply #103 on: July 04, 2013, 12:19:13 AM »

As you grow, mature, experience more things in life (as we all do) you will learn the truth is always the truth.  When we get tired of waiting and want to change things, the truth will still be the truth.  Think of Zechariah and his disbelief.  He became tired of waiting. 

One of the things you must realize is many people just spit out advice based on personal ideas of how they want the world to work, while others (fewer) provide advice from mistakes they have made (because they didn’t listen and became impatient) in the hope it will help you not to make those same mistakes.  Those same people also learned what I stated above, truth will always be true.  With that information, I confess I have made many mistakes in my life which I am more than willing to keep others from making if they are willing to accept guidance from someone who had to learn the hard way. 

Some people view my posts as lofty perching.  They are wrong.  Much of my learning came with battle scars.  Just because you have not seen the results in the time span you wanted does not mean the advice you were given and have been following was wrong.  Faith should not stop when we don’t get what we want when and how we want it.
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« Reply #104 on: July 04, 2013, 12:51:17 AM »


What Hiwot is reading there is not the preposition "as" itself, but a phrase that is not there by any means "as if he were", which is a completely different thing.

In fact, in Greek we have  Ἀγαπήσεις τὸν πλησίον σου ὡς σεαυτόν. where "ós" is translated as... "like" or "as". (http://www.greekbible.com/index.php ), meaning the Portuguese preposition "como" keeps the ambiguity that the English translation is forced to ommit. Even if "as" had the sense of "as if he were" that Hiwot implies, and it does not, the original has that ambiguous meaning of both like and as.

It is late, but I am seeing some problematical situations with what you are proposing. "As if he were" does not have as many limitations to letting us love one another. I will try reading this post later when I am more awake and more likely the answers are up above.
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« Reply #105 on: July 04, 2013, 06:39:29 AM »

Why does marriage have to be the end game of dating?

Whose to say dating doesn't lead into monasticsm? Wink
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« Reply #106 on: July 04, 2013, 08:47:27 AM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever. Spat out by Christians and the like to sounds wise but never really answers what could be a good mate. (i.e. heard that one 40 times and followed it since 6 years before I had an opportunity to have a first date.)

Why is this bad advice?  What is your mission in dating?  Is it not to find a spouse?  I wouldn't waste my time, efforts, not to mention emotions on someone whom I didn't see as a future husband.
It's bad advice because it adds nothing to what I am doing already. I want advice I didn't hear several years before my first date. This does not mean that I want someone to say I should date without respect for a future marriage, but I want something that adds to it. If I was not trying to follow such advice already, I would not have started this thread. So every time someone tells me that, it changes nothing in my life and answers no question and helps no more than anything I have already tried to do.

Who is to know what you already know and what you do not know?  Therefore, preople give the best advice they have. If you don't need their advice just skip over it and read the next post.

There's no need to be insulting to the person who was trying to help you.

Kerdy, I think your advice was spot on.
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« Reply #107 on: July 04, 2013, 08:53:56 AM »

Why does marriage have to be the end game of dating?

Whose to say dating doesn't lead into monasticsm? Wink

Seriously?

If the dating is not geared towards a potential relationship (marriage or shacking up) than what is the main goal?

If it is not in order to get to know the other person and "fall in love", than it is not "dating", but, hanging out, going for a drink, dinner, movie, etc. with a friend. It is not dating.

One must decide for themselves why they are going out with this person.

As an Orthodox Christian, dating ought to have marriage as a goal. Going out to see if you like this person and one day it might lead to marriage.

People are just fooling themselves and trying to make themselves feel better, if they are dating for other reasons.


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« Reply #108 on: July 04, 2013, 10:47:22 AM »

No Liza, my point is that dating can lead to different outcomes. Our dear JamesR may end up dating several women and may decide monasticism is more of his calling.

Again I think that Anastasia1 should go on some dates and have some fun with it. This notion that if you could see yourself possibly marrying the other person on a first date is ridiculous. It may take quite some time until it is revealed if you could possibly marry someone.

I think folks on this forum are really advocating a form of prearranged marriage than anything else. You know this sort of checklist for what the other person needs to fulfill, which to me is a removal of any sort of romance. It's like online dating. I remember trying to register on eHarmony for some laughs and it seriously took me well over 30 minutes to create a profile because you had to be so specific on exactly what you are looking for. I think it is sheer insanity to project a fantasy of what we want in another person to fit in our box. It is too far removed from actually engaging with a person, and you really start to make people turn into standardized tests.

"No I can't really fall in love with you unless you have a credit score of 735, have an index finger length of 4.65", and like diet Snapple iced tea", do you see how absurd this sounds? And this is the future of dating? How frightening. And you are doing the same here "Well I can't fall in love or dive into the passion of romance unless I know I want to marry you.", but again that is nonsense.

As for me, I would rather be swirled up in the mystery of romantic love with no pragmatism. There is an inherent risk with romance that I find to be absolutely thrilling, especially with passion. I don't believe that love should be a checklist of what qualities another person should have nor do I think there is a measurable goal of marriage, either. Why are these requisites to love? They are not. I may very well be in love with another person that I may not actually see myself marrying, perhaps we cannot unify ourselves to be one person and we have divergent personalities or something.
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« Reply #109 on: July 04, 2013, 03:05:38 PM »

It's ok to be empirical when you're 13 or 14 because not only you don't have any experience, you don't even know yourself that well yet.

If you are above 20 and you still don't know what kind of person matches you, what kind of person hurts you, what kind of life you want to live and therefore what kind of person would want to share it with you, turn the yellow lights on.

I recommend everyone on this thread to watch this 15 minute Ted Talk from psychologist specialized on people in their 20s.

http://www.ted.com/talks/meg_jay_why_30_is_not_the_new_20.html

I didn't read the book, but if it's as good as the talk, it's worth it:
The Defining Decade: Why Your Twenties Matter--And How to Make the Most of Them Now
http://www.amazon.com/Defining-Decade-Your-Twenties-Matter--/dp/0446561754/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372965335&sr=1-1
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« Reply #110 on: July 04, 2013, 03:22:45 PM »

No Liza, my point is that dating can lead to different outcomes. Our dear JamesR may end up dating several women and may decide monasticism is more of his calling.

Again I think that Anastasia1 should go on some dates and have some fun with it. This notion that if you could see yourself possibly marrying the other person on a first date is ridiculous. It may take quite some time until it is revealed if you could possibly marry someone.


Exactly. But, the end goal is still marriage.

So, if you know for sure that you would never consider marrying a man with a red beard (just an example) then don't go on a date with a man sporting a red beard.

That's all I'm saying. I'm not inferring that after your first date you can already start planning your wedding. No. But, after the first date you get a pretty good feel for the other person, and either continue or not.


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« Reply #111 on: July 04, 2013, 03:47:08 PM »

orthonorm's deliberate unclarity.
While it is a deliberate posture, this unclarity can bring clarity. He makes you think with his intricate maze-like fragments. There have been many posts he has made that I cannot comprehend what he is writing, but I'm not going to be frustrated or angry about it, but it does require some work, if you are willing to put forth the effort. You keep axe grinding without putting into any thought of what he has to say. Again I think too many of you on this board are so adamant about ethics that you miss what is actually being discussed.

Really this forum is becoming somewhat of a bore with the moralizing of Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #112 on: July 04, 2013, 03:47:08 PM »

It's ok to be empirical when you're 13 or 14 because not only you don't have any experience, you don't even know yourself that well yet.

If you are above 20 and you still don't know what kind of person matches you, what kind of person hurts you, what kind of life you want to live and therefore what kind of person would want to share it with you, turn the yellow lights on.

I recommend everyone on this thread to watch this 15 minute Ted Talk from psychologist specialized on people in their 20s.

http://www.ted.com/talks/meg_jay_why_30_is_not_the_new_20.html

I didn't read the book, but if it's as good as the talk, it's worth it:
The Defining Decade: Why Your Twenties Matter--And How to Make the Most of Them Now
http://www.amazon.com/Defining-Decade-Your-Twenties-Matter--/dp/0446561754/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372965335&sr=1-1
The above is not worth anyone's time.

We should have classes and guidance counselors to pick a spouse? What is with this disgusting outsourcing of love?

Worthless trash.
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« Reply #113 on: July 04, 2013, 04:09:30 PM »

LOL "love." You guys crack me up.

I don't see why "love" matters so much. I could "love" someone but be completely incompatible with them or they could not be what I want at all. I don't want a wife that I "love," I want a wife that is compatible with my expectations for the marriage.

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.
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« Reply #114 on: July 04, 2013, 04:22:45 PM »

LOL "love." You guys crack me up.

I don't see why "love" matters so much. I could "love" someone but be completely incompatible with them or they could not be what I want at all. I don't want a wife that I "love," I want a wife that is compatible with my expectations for the marriage.

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.
And JamesR nailed it.

But the romantic in me still longs for that kind of romantic love.
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« Reply #115 on: July 04, 2013, 04:44:29 PM »

It's a pitty.

It's not about a manicheist choice about being blindly and stupidly in love in a toxic relationship or paying an agreeable but inofensive maid to have sex with you sometimes.

If the person has given up the natural tensions of life entirely to mad passion or cold reason, life itself has been given up. Life is tension.

I still like the image of the rider and the horse, where the rider is conscious choice, reason, analysis and the horse is passion, intensity. Left alone the horse just eats grass and runs around. Left alone the rider can't go very far or fast. A rider without control on a wild horse will get hurt. A cruel rider who exerts excessive control ends up hurting the horse. The ideal is a rider that without violence or beatings is in control of a tamed but strong, healthy and happy horse, and who see each other as friends. Together they can win competitions, go faster and further than alone, even fight enemies together with more effectiveness.

LOL "love." You guys crack me up.

I don't see why "love" matters so much. I could "love" someone but be completely incompatible with them or they could not be what I want at all. I don't want a wife that I "love," I want a wife that is compatible with my expectations for the marriage.

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.
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« Reply #116 on: July 04, 2013, 05:46:28 PM »

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.

Such a wife will take off as soon as you hit a rough patch. If the only thing she gets out of it is spending your money, as soon as you're not bringing home the kind of bacon she wants, she'll move to a more profitable agreement with someone else.

We romantic fools who married for love draw on that love to make it through the hard times.
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« Reply #117 on: July 04, 2013, 06:50:15 PM »

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.

Such a wife will take off as soon as you hit a rough patch. If the only thing she gets out of it is spending your money, as soon as you're not bringing home the kind of bacon she wants, she'll move to a more profitable agreement with someone else.

We romantic fools who married for love draw on that love to make it through the hard times.

Ah, Arachne, yet again the voice of reason and wisdom!  Cheesy
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« Reply #118 on: July 04, 2013, 07:17:23 PM »

orthonorm's deliberate unclarity.
While it is a deliberate posture, this unclarity can bring clarity. He makes you think with his intricate maze-like fragments. There have been many posts he has made that I cannot comprehend what he is writing, but I'm not going to be frustrated or angry about it, but it does require some work, if you are willing to put forth the effort. You keep axe grinding without putting into any thought of what he has to say. Again I think too many of you on this board are so adamant about ethics that you miss what is actually being discussed.

Really this forum is becoming somewhat of a bore with the moralizing of Orthodoxy.

You're wrong.

I consider orthonorm to be pretentious and often irritating, but I won't claim he's not also sometimes entertaining and informative.

I just felt that in this instance it was doing more harm than good.

Perhaps I butted in where I wasn't wanted...or didn't really want to be. But it's not that I dismiss orthonorm's wise sensei act entirely.
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« Reply #119 on: July 04, 2013, 07:42:30 PM »

I'm doubt I will have the current friend. B and I had a fight, sort of, and I don't think B is interested in staying just friends with me unless it is something more. B's a nice guy, genuinely cares for me, wants a small town life with a family and has a little less ambition than I, small town, small company engineer/wanna be husband and eventually a father. B is definitively Roman rite, white guy, but accepting of eastern Christianity and stuff. One of my friends (E) thinks B is a great guy, and worth keeping. B wants to eventually have four kids. (B is mildly OCD, and I am ADHD.) I do meet similar guys every once in a while, and on some level feel like that is what I am supposed to end up with, but I don't know if I would have to give up too much for that.

E's fiance (K) knows another guy whom I do not know much about, but let's say he (x) may represent others as well. X's dad is high up in a big company, and X has a good job, and is friends with the more capitalist friend. (Don't know this particular guy's faith, but this friend (K) is Catholic and knows I am Orthodox and religious.)


I recently decided that I want to start a small business and or non-profit unless I get a really busy or great job and I want to be able to afford to travel at some point. I hope I'm not being shallow here. I spent jr. high and part of high school reading travel guides, dreaming of adventures, just didn't know how to do it or believe that I could. I grew up in a mobile home park, and then had a parent get sick.

I was described a year or two ago as a rural personality with urban tastes. I have to preschedule any evening outings because of family right now, and make slightly above minimum wage, but am working on changing that.

Your friend who wants to be more than a friend already has a fiance?

As to advice, listen to Vamrat.

yeah in addition to clarifying that Anastasia, can you answer Achronos's first question about sexual attraction?

he might love you and that might feel good for one's ego but the real question is do you or can you return the sentiment?

I too had trouble understanding those sentences I have highlighted in addition to what tuesdayschild did.

and I agree, excellent advice Vamrat, especially his last paragraph Anastasia.
I have two friends (E and K) that are engaged and this guy (B) who is in love with me is another guy. Total of three people. The woman in the engaged couple knows another guy (4th person) who the thought of setting me up with had crossed her mind.

This guy that is in love with me, he is sort of cute, but I would be more attracted to him if he was more a bold guy, and a go-getter, less of a quiet little home somewhere with wife and kids and not much else that he needs in life. (Is it bad to say that about such an approach to life?)

The context of urban vs. rural was in asking if I seemed like I belonged more with an urban city guy or a rural country guy.

Thank you for clarifying, Anastasia1.

Regarding your friend B, you describe him as Roman Rite but accepting of eastern Christianity, a mildly OCD engineer (imagine that!) wanting the small town family life.  And you don't want him? Okay. I know a couple of cute young ladies that are looking for a stable, employed, devout Christian man. PM his contact info. If he plays his cards right, he might just find himself in a frivorce-proof marriage to a sweet little homemaker.

Do they like the desert and the southwest?

I'm always afraid guys like that won't care that much about changing the world and I'll give up my dream of being part of something extraordinary besides a church and our marriage for a guy who won't be a part of anything extraordinary besides a church and a marriage, and I'll look back on my life and regret that, and we will at best be like any other family but not disfunctional like some.
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« Reply #120 on: July 04, 2013, 08:44:06 PM »

Why does marriage have to be the end game of dating?
Who said it was?  I still take my wife on dates, when I am able.
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« Reply #121 on: July 04, 2013, 08:47:08 PM »

LOL "love." You guys crack me up.

I don't see why "love" matters so much. I could "love" someone but be completely incompatible with them or they could not be what I want at all. I don't want a wife that I "love," I want a wife that is compatible with my expectations for the marriage.

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.
This is such a pitiful post. Cry
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« Reply #122 on: July 04, 2013, 08:48:54 PM »

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.

Such a wife will take off as soon as you hit a rough patch. If the only thing she gets out of it is spending your money, as soon as you're not bringing home the kind of bacon she wants, she'll move to a more profitable agreement with someone else.

We romantic fools who married for love draw on that love to make it through the hard times.
Completely agree!  Marriage isn't easy and if you don't have an abundance on love and determination, you failed.
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« Reply #123 on: July 04, 2013, 08:54:57 PM »

I'm doubt I will have the current friend. B and I had a fight, sort of, and I don't think B is interested in staying just friends with me unless it is something more. B's a nice guy, genuinely cares for me, wants a small town life with a family and has a little less ambition than I, small town, small company engineer/wanna be husband and eventually a father. B is definitively Roman rite, white guy, but accepting of eastern Christianity and stuff. One of my friends (E) thinks B is a great guy, and worth keeping. B wants to eventually have four kids. (B is mildly OCD, and I am ADHD.) I do meet similar guys every once in a while, and on some level feel like that is what I am supposed to end up with, but I don't know if I would have to give up too much for that.

E's fiance (K) knows another guy whom I do not know much about, but let's say he (x) may represent others as well. X's dad is high up in a big company, and X has a good job, and is friends with the more capitalist friend. (Don't know this particular guy's faith, but this friend (K) is Catholic and knows I am Orthodox and religious.)


I recently decided that I want to start a small business and or non-profit unless I get a really busy or great job and I want to be able to afford to travel at some point. I hope I'm not being shallow here. I spent jr. high and part of high school reading travel guides, dreaming of adventures, just didn't know how to do it or believe that I could. I grew up in a mobile home park, and then had a parent get sick.

I was described a year or two ago as a rural personality with urban tastes. I have to preschedule any evening outings because of family right now, and make slightly above minimum wage, but am working on changing that.

Your friend who wants to be more than a friend already has a fiance?

As to advice, listen to Vamrat.

yeah in addition to clarifying that Anastasia, can you answer Achronos's first question about sexual attraction?

he might love you and that might feel good for one's ego but the real question is do you or can you return the sentiment?

I too had trouble understanding those sentences I have highlighted in addition to what tuesdayschild did.

and I agree, excellent advice Vamrat, especially his last paragraph Anastasia.
I have two friends (E and K) that are engaged and this guy (B) who is in love with me is another guy. Total of three people. The woman in the engaged couple knows another guy (4th person) who the thought of setting me up with had crossed her mind.

This guy that is in love with me, he is sort of cute, but I would be more attracted to him if he was more a bold guy, and a go-getter, less of a quiet little home somewhere with wife and kids and not much else that he needs in life. (Is it bad to say that about such an approach to life?)

The context of urban vs. rural was in asking if I seemed like I belonged more with an urban city guy or a rural country guy.

Thank you for clarifying, Anastasia1.

Regarding your friend B, you describe him as Roman Rite but accepting of eastern Christianity, a mildly OCD engineer (imagine that!) wanting the small town family life.  And you don't want him? Okay. I know a couple of cute young ladies that are looking for a stable, employed, devout Christian man. PM his contact info. If he plays his cards right, he might just find himself in a frivorce-proof marriage to a sweet little homemaker.

Do they like the desert and the southwest?

I'm always afraid guys like that won't care that much about changing the world and I'll give up my dream of being part of something extraordinary besides a church and our marriage for a guy who won't be a part of anything extraordinary besides a church and a marriage, and I'll look back on my life and regret that, and we will at best be like any other family but not disfunctional like some.
But family is extraordinary.  In fact, the most extraordinary thing you'll ever have a chance to be a part of in your life.
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« Reply #124 on: July 04, 2013, 10:29:27 PM »

I'm doubt I will have the current friend. B and I had a fight, sort of, and I don't think B is interested in staying just friends with me unless it is something more. B's a nice guy, genuinely cares for me, wants a small town life with a family and has a little less ambition than I, small town, small company engineer/wanna be husband and eventually a father. B is definitively Roman rite, white guy, but accepting of eastern Christianity and stuff. One of my friends (E) thinks B is a great guy, and worth keeping. B wants to eventually have four kids. (B is mildly OCD, and I am ADHD.) I do meet similar guys every once in a while, and on some level feel like that is what I am supposed to end up with, but I don't know if I would have to give up too much for that.

E's fiance (K) knows another guy whom I do not know much about, but let's say he (x) may represent others as well. X's dad is high up in a big company, and X has a good job, and is friends with the more capitalist friend. (Don't know this particular guy's faith, but this friend (K) is Catholic and knows I am Orthodox and religious.)


I recently decided that I want to start a small business and or non-profit unless I get a really busy or great job and I want to be able to afford to travel at some point. I hope I'm not being shallow here. I spent jr. high and part of high school reading travel guides, dreaming of adventures, just didn't know how to do it or believe that I could. I grew up in a mobile home park, and then had a parent get sick.

I was described a year or two ago as a rural personality with urban tastes. I have to preschedule any evening outings because of family right now, and make slightly above minimum wage, but am working on changing that.

Your friend who wants to be more than a friend already has a fiance?

As to advice, listen to Vamrat.

yeah in addition to clarifying that Anastasia, can you answer Achronos's first question about sexual attraction?

he might love you and that might feel good for one's ego but the real question is do you or can you return the sentiment?

I too had trouble understanding those sentences I have highlighted in addition to what tuesdayschild did.

and I agree, excellent advice Vamrat, especially his last paragraph Anastasia.
I have two friends (E and K) that are engaged and this guy (B) who is in love with me is another guy. Total of three people. The woman in the engaged couple knows another guy (4th person) who the thought of setting me up with had crossed her mind.

This guy that is in love with me, he is sort of cute, but I would be more attracted to him if he was more a bold guy, and a go-getter, less of a quiet little home somewhere with wife and kids and not much else that he needs in life. (Is it bad to say that about such an approach to life?)

The context of urban vs. rural was in asking if I seemed like I belonged more with an urban city guy or a rural country guy.

Thank you for clarifying, Anastasia1.

Regarding your friend B, you describe him as Roman Rite but accepting of eastern Christianity, a mildly OCD engineer (imagine that!) wanting the small town family life.  And you don't want him? Okay. I know a couple of cute young ladies that are looking for a stable, employed, devout Christian man. PM his contact info. If he plays his cards right, he might just find himself in a frivorce-proof marriage to a sweet little homemaker.

Do they like the desert and the southwest?

I'm always afraid guys like that won't care that much about changing the world and I'll give up my dream of being part of something extraordinary besides a church and our marriage for a guy who won't be a part of anything extraordinary besides a church and a marriage, and I'll look back on my life and regret that, and we will at best be like any other family but not disfunctional like some.
But family is extraordinary.  In fact, the most extraordinary thing you'll ever have a chance to be a part of in your life.
I spent half of my time for the last decade trying to have a career where I can change the world. Am I really to give that up for a guy who does not have any particular desire for either of us to do that?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 10:33:46 PM by Anastasia1 » Logged

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« Reply #125 on: July 04, 2013, 11:18:41 PM »

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.

Such a wife will take off as soon as you hit a rough patch. If the only thing she gets out of it is spending your money, as soon as you're not bringing home the kind of bacon she wants, she'll move to a more profitable agreement with someone else.

We romantic fools who married for love draw on that love to make it through the hard times.

Agreed.

What a sad way of looking at marriage, James, and I mean that sincerely and without intending to insult you.  The choice ought not be "love" OR "practicality": God intended partnership, and ideally (provided we are matched with the right person and/or don't mess it up) that partnership incorporates the things you talked about but subjects them to love, lives them out in love, and perfects them through love.  Thankfully, you're young and have time, God willing, to learn that there's more to life than one's wallet and penis.   
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« Reply #126 on: July 04, 2013, 11:27:04 PM »

I'm doubt I will have the current friend. B and I had a fight, sort of, and I don't think B is interested in staying just friends with me unless it is something more. B's a nice guy, genuinely cares for me, wants a small town life with a family and has a little less ambition than I, small town, small company engineer/wanna be husband and eventually a father. B is definitively Roman rite, white guy, but accepting of eastern Christianity and stuff. One of my friends (E) thinks B is a great guy, and worth keeping. B wants to eventually have four kids. (B is mildly OCD, and I am ADHD.) I do meet similar guys every once in a while, and on some level feel like that is what I am supposed to end up with, but I don't know if I would have to give up too much for that.

E's fiance (K) knows another guy whom I do not know much about, but let's say he (x) may represent others as well. X's dad is high up in a big company, and X has a good job, and is friends with the more capitalist friend. (Don't know this particular guy's faith, but this friend (K) is Catholic and knows I am Orthodox and religious.)


I recently decided that I want to start a small business and or non-profit unless I get a really busy or great job and I want to be able to afford to travel at some point. I hope I'm not being shallow here. I spent jr. high and part of high school reading travel guides, dreaming of adventures, just didn't know how to do it or believe that I could. I grew up in a mobile home park, and then had a parent get sick.

I was described a year or two ago as a rural personality with urban tastes. I have to preschedule any evening outings because of family right now, and make slightly above minimum wage, but am working on changing that.

Your friend who wants to be more than a friend already has a fiance?

As to advice, listen to Vamrat.

yeah in addition to clarifying that Anastasia, can you answer Achronos's first question about sexual attraction?

he might love you and that might feel good for one's ego but the real question is do you or can you return the sentiment?

I too had trouble understanding those sentences I have highlighted in addition to what tuesdayschild did.

and I agree, excellent advice Vamrat, especially his last paragraph Anastasia.
I have two friends (E and K) that are engaged and this guy (B) who is in love with me is another guy. Total of three people. The woman in the engaged couple knows another guy (4th person) who the thought of setting me up with had crossed her mind.

This guy that is in love with me, he is sort of cute, but I would be more attracted to him if he was more a bold guy, and a go-getter, less of a quiet little home somewhere with wife and kids and not much else that he needs in life. (Is it bad to say that about such an approach to life?)

The context of urban vs. rural was in asking if I seemed like I belonged more with an urban city guy or a rural country guy.

Thank you for clarifying, Anastasia1.

Regarding your friend B, you describe him as Roman Rite but accepting of eastern Christianity, a mildly OCD engineer (imagine that!) wanting the small town family life.  And you don't want him? Okay. I know a couple of cute young ladies that are looking for a stable, employed, devout Christian man. PM his contact info. If he plays his cards right, he might just find himself in a frivorce-proof marriage to a sweet little homemaker.

Do they like the desert and the southwest?

I'm always afraid guys like that won't care that much about changing the world and I'll give up my dream of being part of something extraordinary besides a church and our marriage for a guy who won't be a part of anything extraordinary besides a church and a marriage, and I'll look back on my life and regret that, and we will at best be like any other family but not disfunctional like some.
But family is extraordinary.  In fact, the most extraordinary thing you'll ever have a chance to be a part of in your life.
I spent half of my time for the last decade trying to have a career where I can change the world. Am I really to give that up for a guy who does not have any particular desire for either of us to do that?
I've spent my entire adult life attempting to better the world and if there is one thing I've learned is it isn't going to happen.  My best influence is one person at a time and mostly my family.  This is why I am still probably going to retire early and change careers.  Over two decades and the answer has been right in front of me almost the entire time...my kids.

Your priorities are yours and for your own reasons.  I don't know them so I can't say if I think they are good or bad.  You are the one who must make your own choices, but I know A LOT of women who regret career over family and a few who don't.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 11:29:47 PM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #127 on: July 04, 2013, 11:41:51 PM »


My main point is that *loving yourself* is the reference to which we know if we love others. Can we agree that loving means wishing Good to the beloved? That is of foremost importance.


I read through the posts, and I do agree with you in some of them, but I think I have a problem with loving myself as a reference to our ability to love others. I do not think it is the reference. I would be interested in your justification (I have not seen it so far). I do think it is important not to hate yourself and to accept your failings in order to strive to be better. But this is not loving yourself.

I would like to go to a post of yours that made a big impression of me:

Now and then we find in the internet  videos, movies or songs that were not made by Orthodox or with an Orthodox intent but that convey some Orthodox values of aesthetical nature.

Here is a video that I think depicts beautifully the virtue of obedience:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMIOuPxhCVI

I never saw it as a virtue of obedience. I did see it as a depiction of motherhood. And I would include fatherhood in this. It is not a matter of obedience, but of stepping out into society and realizing our role in life.

It is not a matter of loving of oneself which would imply some importance to ourselves. It is a matter of sacrifice, even for those that we dislike.

In terms of dating, I am afraid that I am idealistic about it. At least for some it is your first experience to love someone more than yourself.

On the negative side, I realize that there is an extreme to this view point that I question myself on, idolatry, and I have posted in the past I would start a thread on this topic but I have not done so as of yet.
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« Reply #128 on: July 04, 2013, 11:42:40 PM »

I spent half of my time for the last decade trying to have a career where I can change the world. Am I really to give that up for a guy who does not have any particular desire for either of us to do that?
I've spent my entire adult life attempting to better the world and if there is one thing I've learned is it isn't going to happen.  My best influence is one person at a time and mostly my family.  This is why I am still probably going to retire early and change careers.  Over two decades and the answer has been right in front of me almost the entire time...my kids.

Your priorities are yours and for your own reasons.  I don't know them so I can't say if I think they are good or bad.  You are the one who must make your own choices, but I know A LOT of women who regret career over family and a few who don't.
I volunteered in a non-profit, and that organization changed the lives of numerous families, saving lives by access to the hospital, families by reducing financial stress, and reducing stress of the family during a super hard time. You don't change the world at once. You do it one day at a time, one person at a time. For those people, those families with sick kids, we did change the world.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 11:44:23 PM by Anastasia1 » Logged

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« Reply #129 on: July 04, 2013, 11:47:11 PM »

I spent half of my time for the last decade trying to have a career where I can change the world. Am I really to give that up for a guy who does not have any particular desire for either of us to do that?
I've spent my entire adult life attempting to better the world and if there is one thing I've learned is it isn't going to happen.  My best influence is one person at a time and mostly my family.  This is why I am still probably going to retire early and change careers.  Over two decades and the answer has been right in front of me almost the entire time...my kids.

Your priorities are yours and for your own reasons.  I don't know them so I can't say if I think they are good or bad.  You are the one who must make your own choices, but I know A LOT of women who regret career over family and a few who don't.
I volunteered in a non-profit, and that organization changed the lives of numerous families, saving lives by access to the hospital, families by reducing financial stress, and reducing stress of the family during a super hard time. You don't change the world at once. You do it one day at a time, one person at a time. For those people, those families with sick kids, we did change the world.
Awesome!
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« Reply #130 on: July 05, 2013, 12:06:50 AM »


I spent half of my time for the last decade trying to have a career where I can change the world. Am I really to give that up for a guy who does not have any particular desire for either of us to do that?

No. But on the same token, this is not a lifestyle issue. If you are going to make a difference in the world, you should be able to convince him unless it deals with politics and economics. In other words, there is no way you are going to convince me that free market capitalistic greed is good. You can convince me to do volunteer work to help those in need, etc.

If your cause is good and falls on deaf ears then try again, but you should give up when you decide it is hopeless (although it may not be). It is a tough choice.
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« Reply #131 on: July 05, 2013, 01:57:58 AM »

No. But on the same token, this is not a lifestyle issue. If you are going to make a difference in the world, you should be able to convince him unless it deals with politics and economics. In other words, there is no way you are going to convince me that free market capitalistic greed is good. You can convince me to do volunteer work to help those in need, etc.
I care way more that you vote than I do who or what you vote for. You are registered, right? If not, it is not too late to register.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 01:58:41 AM by Anastasia1 » Logged

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« Reply #132 on: July 05, 2013, 02:09:55 AM »

I spent half of my time for the last decade trying to have a career where I can change the world. Am I really to give that up for a guy who does not have any particular desire for either of us to do that?
I've spent my entire adult life attempting to better the world and if there is one thing I've learned is it isn't going to happen.  My best influence is one person at a time and mostly my family.  This is why I am still probably going to retire early and change careers.  Over two decades and the answer has been right in front of me almost the entire time...my kids.

Your priorities are yours and for your own reasons.  I don't know them so I can't say if I think they are good or bad.  You are the one who must make your own choices, but I know A LOT of women who regret career over family and a few who don't.
I volunteered in a non-profit, and that organization changed the lives of numerous families, saving lives by access to the hospital, families by reducing financial stress, and reducing stress of the family during a super hard time. You don't change the world at once. You do it one day at a time, one person at a time. For those people, those families with sick kids, we did change the world.
Awesome!
“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.” ― Margaret Mead

I'm all for family, but right now, I don't my priorities don't end at my home's doorstep. I want to make a splash with my life. Is it important to share that?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 02:14:18 AM by Anastasia1 » Logged

Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. (2 Cor 2:6)
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« Reply #133 on: July 05, 2013, 02:36:46 AM »

Of course it is. Whatever it is that's important to you in your life is also what's important in your dating life, no? I mean, they're not completely separate spheres...
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« Reply #134 on: July 05, 2013, 02:51:13 AM »

I spent half of my time for the last decade trying to have a career where I can change the world. Am I really to give that up for a guy who does not have any particular desire for either of us to do that?
I've spent my entire adult life attempting to better the world and if there is one thing I've learned is it isn't going to happen.  My best influence is one person at a time and mostly my family.  This is why I am still probably going to retire early and change careers.  Over two decades and the answer has been right in front of me almost the entire time...my kids.

Your priorities are yours and for your own reasons.  I don't know them so I can't say if I think they are good or bad.  You are the one who must make your own choices, but I know A LOT of women who regret career over family and a few who don't.
I volunteered in a non-profit, and that organization changed the lives of numerous families, saving lives by access to the hospital, families by reducing financial stress, and reducing stress of the family during a super hard time. You don't change the world at once. You do it one day at a time, one person at a time. For those people, those families with sick kids, we did change the world.
Awesome!
“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.” ― Margaret Mead

I'm all for family, but right now, I don't my priorities don't end at my home's doorstep. I want to make a splash with my life. Is it important to share that?
I've provided as much for you as I can at this point.  I wish you the best.  The choices are for you to make alone.
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