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JamesR
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« Reply #135 on: July 05, 2013, 03:07:29 AM »

I don't get this whole glorified view of the family. Quite frankly, it makes no sense to me and I don't see how it's the greatest thing ever. I've grown up in a family and had to take care of my siblings all the time and it's only turned me off to the possibility of ever wanting a family.
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« Reply #136 on: July 05, 2013, 03:11:00 AM »

What you mean is 'get to know the other one more'.  She is already good friends with the first one.  

Getting to know a bit more about the other one is probably a good idea.  Right now your lack of knowledge about him is why this is still a balanced equation.  If you can change it from "guy I know/different lifestyle" vs "guy I don't know/same lifestyle" into "guy I know with different lifestyle" vs "guy I know with same lifestyle" then it gets a bit easier to decide.   Wink  Also, if you get to know him them it might show some unacceptable traits and then you still have current friend.

Also, you need to discern if the lifestyle choices the other one has are going to make things impossible.  It might be worth discussing these things with him.  I guess knowing what you mean by "lifestyle" is also important.  If these are immutable personality traits then there could be problems regardless of any promises to "change".
I'm doubt I will have the current friend. He and I had a fight, sort of, and I don't think he is interested in staying just friends with me unless it is something more. He's a nice guy, genuinely cares for me, wants a small town life with a family and has a little less ambition than I, small town, small company engineer/wanna be husband and eventually a father. He is definitively Roman rite, white guy, but accepting of eastern Christianity and stuff. One of my friends thinks he is a great guy, and worth keeping. He wants to eventually have four kids. (He is mildly OCD, and I am ADHD.) I do meet similar guys every once in a while, and on some level feel like that is what I am supposed to end up with, but I don't know if I would have to give up too much for that.

His fiance knows another guy whom I do not know much about, but let's say he may represent others as well. His dad is high up in a big company and this guy has a good job, and is friends with the more capitalist friend. (Don't know this particular guy's faith, but this friend is Catholic and knows I am Orthodox and religious.)

I recently decided that I want to start a small business and or non-profit unless I get a really busy or great job and I want to be able to afford to travel at some point. I hope I'm not being shallow here. I spent jr. high and part of high school reading travel guides, dreaming of adventures, just didn't know how to do it or believe that I could. I grew up in a mobile home park, and then had a parent get sick.

I was described a year or two ago as a rural personality with urban tastes. I have to preschedule any evening outings because of family right now, and make slightly above minimum wage, but am working on changing that.
My advice is first of all to drop anyone who has a fiancé. Secondly, you should only consider dating people of your own religion, (unless you want to convert to Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic or at least are comfortable attending RC or EC religious services). Thirdly, you marry the person you respect the most, and who you feel most comfortable with and believe would be the best husband for you and for the future children.
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« Reply #137 on: July 05, 2013, 09:08:27 AM »

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.

Such a wife will take off as soon as you hit a rough patch. If the only thing she gets out of it is spending your money, as soon as you're not bringing home the kind of bacon she wants, she'll move to a more profitable agreement with someone else.

We romantic fools who married for love draw on that love to make it through the hard times.
I see nowhere in what James said that his wife would only be in the marriage to spend money. She would have to work in the event he gets injured. She takes care of him like a mother and in return she can spend his money. I don't like the implications of it personally, but if that is what they decided as a couple before being married then whose to say that is wrong?

Seems like you are the one who has the problem with selling off the commodity when the love runs dry and buying another to gratify your narcissism.
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« Reply #138 on: July 05, 2013, 09:08:27 AM »

orthonorm's deliberate unclarity.
While it is a deliberate posture, this unclarity can bring clarity. He makes you think with his intricate maze-like fragments. There have been many posts he has made that I cannot comprehend what he is writing, but I'm not going to be frustrated or angry about it, but it does require some work, if you are willing to put forth the effort. You keep axe grinding without putting into any thought of what he has to say. Again I think too many of you on this board are so adamant about ethics that you miss what is actually being discussed.

Really this forum is becoming somewhat of a bore with the moralizing of Orthodoxy.

You're wrong.

I consider orthonorm to be pretentious and often irritating, but I won't claim he's not also sometimes entertaining and informative.
See there you go again with this whole wrong business. And pretentious? LOL no.
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« Reply #139 on: July 05, 2013, 09:08:27 AM »

I spent half of my time for the last decade trying to have a career where I can change the world. Am I really to give that up for a guy who does not have any particular desire for either of us to do that?
Anastasia, what are you doing in order to change the world? Just curious what your work is. And ignore Kerdy, please. He is becoming increasingly trollish in his behavior, I cannot even begin to approach his ideology without wanting to profusely vomit.

I am not sure how many bold and ambitious men you will find that don't come with some level of insecurity with your own independence and ambition. Personally I have already accepted that women will be making more income and maybe have more positions in power than men in the future anyway, however I have my own reservations with further feminist encroachment. Maybe the object here is that you think you want isn't what you really want. But really, this is where you need to start dating and letting these things be revealed to you. I find more things about myself when I meet with different women and understand more fully what I truly desire. As of right now, I am very reclusive so I haven't done much of any dating since I moved back in May, I am just not ready to start dating again.

I'm sure you can find plenty of supportive guys out there on your dream.
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« Reply #140 on: July 05, 2013, 09:27:51 AM »

Hi Opus!

The reasoning is quite simple. A big part of what love is, is whishing good to other people. How will you give what is good to other people if you don't even know what that is for yourself? When Jesus tells us that a blind person cannot guide the blind, that includes having your own personal experience of what is good and of what is love. If you don't have that, you don't know what love is and very probably is just imposing an abstraction onto the other person. Also Jesus taught us that if you can't love what you see, you won't be able to love that which you can't see. That's true when we talk about our neighbor-God, but also from "ourself-our neighbor", because we cannot really see their feelings, see their hearts, literally be in their shoes. But we can see our feelings, hearts and be in our own shoes. A lot of people who insist too much on the "other" simply can't stand themselves, to be on their own shoes. Nothing is more visible to you than yourself. Than your neighbor. Then God. And hopefully, you will one day see God inhabitting in yourself. But if you never learned to look to you in a loving way, you won't see Him there even if He is.

A lot of people don't get any dates for the simple fact that not even them know what is good for themselves. People love you as much as you love yourself. It's true that the perversion of that makes sick self-worshippers some of the most popular people in the world. But the misuse of something is no excuse to its demonization.

If you want to be loved by a spiritually and psychologically normal person, you must have a spiritually and psychological healthy love for yourself. Wish good for yourself, know and respect both your personal limitations and your personal needs, acknowledge your sins and struggle against them, acknowledge your strengths and virtues *without* pride or vanity. Learn who you are, what your character is. Don't worship yourself, that is what egotism is and that is much of what is intended to be said when so many talk of "self-love" as a bad thing.



My main point is that *loving yourself* is the reference to which we know if we love others. Can we agree that loving means wishing Good to the beloved? That is of foremost importance.


I read through the posts, and I do agree with you in some of them, but I think I have a problem with loving myself as a reference to our ability to love others. I do not think it is the reference. I would be interested in your justification (I have not seen it so far). I do think it is important not to hate yourself and to accept your failings in order to strive to be better. But this is not loving yourself.

I would like to go to a post of yours that made a big impression of me:

Now and then we find in the internet  videos, movies or songs that were not made by Orthodox or with an Orthodox intent but that convey some Orthodox values of aesthetical nature.

Here is a video that I think depicts beautifully the virtue of obedience:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMIOuPxhCVI

I never saw it as a virtue of obedience. I did see it as a depiction of motherhood. And I would include fatherhood in this. It is not a matter of obedience, but of stepping out into society and realizing our role in life.

It is not a matter of loving of oneself which would imply some importance to ourselves. It is a matter of sacrifice, even for those that we dislike.

In terms of dating, I am afraid that I am idealistic about it. At least for some it is your first experience to love someone more than yourself.

On the negative side, I realize that there is an extreme to this view point that I question myself on, idolatry, and I have posted in the past I would start a thread on this topic but I have not done so as of yet.
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« Reply #141 on: July 05, 2013, 09:39:57 AM »

Who knew one could find such unOrthodox advice in such a plentiful amount on an Orthodox forum.  At least most Orthodox don't actually live this stuff out in real life.
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« Reply #142 on: July 05, 2013, 09:45:27 AM »

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.

Such a wife will take off as soon as you hit a rough patch. If the only thing she gets out of it is spending your money, as soon as you're not bringing home the kind of bacon she wants, she'll move to a more profitable agreement with someone else.

We romantic fools who married for love draw on that love to make it through the hard times.
I see nowhere in what James said that his wife would only be in the marriage to spend money. She would have to work in the event he gets injured. She takes care of him like a mother and in return she can spend his money. I don't like the implications of it personally, but if that is what they decided as a couple before being married then whose to say that is wrong?

Read his post again, then. 'You keep house, put out when I feel like it, stay out of my way when I don't, and get to spend the money I make. But if I don't make any money, you work to make it, and do all the rest too.' Good luck finding anyone stupid enough to agree to such terms.

And the whole injury thing? One's livelihood is in much greater danger from unemployment than injury. But James is still at an age to believe that such nasty things happen to other people. You should know better.

Seems like you are the one who has the problem with selling off the commodity when the love runs dry and buying another to gratify your narcissism.

Huh? Huh

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« Reply #143 on: July 05, 2013, 09:57:49 AM »

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« Reply #144 on: July 05, 2013, 09:04:11 PM »

LOL "love." You guys crack me up.

I don't see why "love" matters so much. I could "love" someone but be completely incompatible with them or they could not be what I want at all. I don't want a wife that I "love," I want a wife that is compatible with my expectations for the marriage.

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.
James, I know this may come as a shock to you, but you do realize women are living, breathing, feeling, actual people, don't you?  They are just as real as men with dreams, goals, plans, needs...just like us.

Now, once you pick yourself up from falling out of your chair, go find a woman and speak to her like a real person.  You may even have a real conversation.
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« Reply #145 on: July 05, 2013, 10:08:26 PM »

LOL "love." You guys crack me up.

I don't see why "love" matters so much. I could "love" someone but be completely incompatible with them or they could not be what I want at all. I don't want a wife that I "love," I want a wife that is compatible with my expectations for the marriage.

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.
James, I know this may come as a shock to you, but you do realize women are living, breathing, feeling, actual people, don't you?  They are just as real as men with dreams, goals, plans, needs...just like us.

Now, once you pick yourself up from falling out of your chair, go find a woman and speak to her like a real person.  You may even have a real conversation.

What is it with people here always acting like I don't consider women people? I never said they aren't. The thing is, I don't get "dreams, goals, plans, needs," and "love" and all of that other stuff that everyone fantasizes about. I'm one of the most emotionally detached persons you will ever meet. I don't care about "loving" a woman or if she "loves" me. If we do fall in love, that's good. But that's not my primary concern. My primary concern is finding someone compatible who can fulfill my expectations for marriage and whose expectations I can meet. I want an efficient marriage; not a loving one. I want a wife that can help me in life, regardless of whether or not she loves me. I'd rather be married to someone efficient who I absolutely hate than someone inept who I love.
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« Reply #146 on: July 05, 2013, 10:25:43 PM »

LOL "love." You guys crack me up.

I don't see why "love" matters so much. I could "love" someone but be completely incompatible with them or they could not be what I want at all. I don't want a wife that I "love," I want a wife that is compatible with my expectations for the marriage.

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.
This is such a pitiful post. Cry

Agreed... You gotta love your wife...  I'd rather love my wife than have any help in life from her at all.
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« Reply #147 on: July 05, 2013, 10:32:35 PM »

LOL "love." You guys crack me up.

I don't see why "love" matters so much. I could "love" someone but be completely incompatible with them or they could not be what I want at all. I don't want a wife that I "love," I want a wife that is compatible with my expectations for the marriage.

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.
James, I know this may come as a shock to you, but you do realize women are living, breathing, feeling, actual people, don't you?  They are just as real as men with dreams, goals, plans, needs...just like us.

Now, once you pick yourself up from falling out of your chair, go find a woman and speak to her like a real person.  You may even have a real conversation.

What is it with people here always acting like I don't consider women people? I never said they aren't. The thing is, I don't get "dreams, goals, plans, needs," and "love" and all of that other stuff that everyone fantasizes about. I'm one of the most emotionally detached persons you will ever meet. I don't care about "loving" a woman or if she "loves" me. If we do fall in love, that's good. But that's not my primary concern. My primary concern is finding someone compatible who can fulfill my expectations for marriage and whose expectations I can meet. I want an efficient marriage; not a loving one. I want a wife that can help me in life, regardless of whether or not she loves me. I'd rather be married to someone efficient who I absolutely hate than someone inept who I love.

Hahaaaaahaa teenagers!

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« Reply #148 on: July 05, 2013, 10:41:49 PM »

LOL "love." You guys crack me up.

I don't see why "love" matters so much. I could "love" someone but be completely incompatible with them or they could not be what I want at all. I don't want a wife that I "love," I want a wife that is compatible with my expectations for the marriage.

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.
James, I know this may come as a shock to you, but you do realize women are living, breathing, feeling, actual people, don't you?  They are just as real as men with dreams, goals, plans, needs...just like us.

Now, once you pick yourself up from falling out of your chair, go find a woman and speak to her like a real person.  You may even have a real conversation.

What is it with people here always acting like I don't consider women people? I never said they aren't. The thing is, I don't get "dreams, goals, plans, needs," and "love" and all of that other stuff that everyone fantasizes about. I'm one of the most emotionally detached persons you will ever meet. I don't care about "loving" a woman or if she "loves" me. If we do fall in love, that's good. But that's not my primary concern. My primary concern is finding someone compatible who can fulfill my expectations for marriage and whose expectations I can meet. I want an efficient marriage; not a loving one. I want a wife that can help me in life, regardless of whether or not she loves me. I'd rather be married to someone efficient who I absolutely hate than someone inept who I love.

Understand completely what you are saying, but you know brother, there is something much more about all of that done in love.  

A wife that WANTS to give you children because she loves you, and you want children with her because you love her....   All of the things done in love, rather than expectation....

For instance, my children expect me to feed them, give them clothes, shelter, and protection.  I expect them to do chores, respect my wife and I, work hard in school/study, and have faith.   When we add it all up, the most tender moments is the BOND, which is love.  The kiss goodnight and telling them that you "love them", gives credence for everything else you do for them.  It is the assurance of true acceptance. The bond of love means everything.

With a spouse, it is the same thing, and even stronger.  The bond of love, mutual trust, and true care for one another gives beauty in every sacrifice and joy done together.   True love means you can look over, and know that you'd take care of your spouse even if she became a paraplegic... You know you'd be there through the thick and the thin, even if they were not able to function at all.  Love also means that you'd honestly die for your spouse or your children. (As Christ died for us)

The function of a marriage is based in love.   The woman who you spend the rest of your life with, you should love her as yourself.  She will be one flesh with you... Eastern Orthodoxy adorns those being married with the crown of martyrs, symbolizing the death of your old lives, and joined together.   Love will make this sacrifice of self, one of the most joyous occasions in your life.
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« Reply #149 on: July 05, 2013, 11:40:43 PM »

Hi Fabio,

I think we agree on the bottom line, but I also think we disagree on some of the details. Not a bad thing since it is aimed at the same concept. I hope to be able to write tomorrow. (It is best to reflect whether there is any value in nitpicking.)

Take care.

Hi Opus!

The reasoning is quite simple. A big part of what love is, is whishing good to other people. How will you give what is good to other people if you don't even know what that is for yourself? When Jesus tells us that a blind person cannot guide the blind, that includes having your own personal experience of what is good and of what is love. If you don't have that, you don't know what love is and very probably is just imposing an abstraction onto the other person. Also Jesus taught us that if you can't love what you see, you won't be able to love that which you can't see. That's true when we talk about our neighbor-God, but also from "ourself-our neighbor", because we cannot really see their feelings, see their hearts, literally be in their shoes. But we can see our feelings, hearts and be in our own shoes. A lot of people who insist too much on the "other" simply can't stand themselves, to be on their own shoes. Nothing is more visible to you than yourself. Than your neighbor. Then God. And hopefully, you will one day see God inhabitting in yourself. But if you never learned to look to you in a loving way, you won't see Him there even if He is.

A lot of people don't get any dates for the simple fact that not even them know what is good for themselves. People love you as much as you love yourself. It's true that the perversion of that makes sick self-worshippers some of the most popular people in the world. But the misuse of something is no excuse to its demonization.

If you want to be loved by a spiritually and psychologically normal person, you must have a spiritually and psychological healthy love for yourself. Wish good for yourself, know and respect both your personal limitations and your personal needs, acknowledge your sins and struggle against them, acknowledge your strengths and virtues *without* pride or vanity. Learn who you are, what your character is. Don't worship yourself, that is what egotism is and that is much of what is intended to be said when so many talk of "self-love" as a bad thing.



My main point is that *loving yourself* is the reference to which we know if we love others. Can we agree that loving means wishing Good to the beloved? That is of foremost importance.


I read through the posts, and I do agree with you in some of them, but I think I have a problem with loving myself as a reference to our ability to love others. I do not think it is the reference. I would be interested in your justification (I have not seen it so far). I do think it is important not to hate yourself and to accept your failings in order to strive to be better. But this is not loving yourself.

I would like to go to a post of yours that made a big impression of me:

Now and then we find in the internet  videos, movies or songs that were not made by Orthodox or with an Orthodox intent but that convey some Orthodox values of aesthetical nature.

Here is a video that I think depicts beautifully the virtue of obedience:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMIOuPxhCVI

I never saw it as a virtue of obedience. I did see it as a depiction of motherhood. And I would include fatherhood in this. It is not a matter of obedience, but of stepping out into society and realizing our role in life.

It is not a matter of loving of oneself which would imply some importance to ourselves. It is a matter of sacrifice, even for those that we dislike.

In terms of dating, I am afraid that I am idealistic about it. At least for some it is your first experience to love someone more than yourself.

On the negative side, I realize that there is an extreme to this view point that I question myself on, idolatry, and I have posted in the past I would start a thread on this topic but I have not done so as of yet.
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« Reply #150 on: July 06, 2013, 01:10:05 AM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever.

Then do as you like/want, stop asking for others advice, and live with the penalties.  If you want the easy way rather than the correct way, you can do that all by yourself without the influence of others.
Is that what you think, that the way you present here is always the correct way?

I'm confused.  Are you suggesting she date men whom she has no intention of marrying?
No, not at all. Just pointing out that whatever way Kerdy thinks, he presents his opinion as if it is the one correct way.
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« Reply #151 on: July 06, 2013, 01:19:32 AM »

No Liza, my point is that dating can lead to different outcomes. Our dear JamesR may end up dating several women and may decide monasticism is more of his calling.

Again I think that Anastasia1 should go on some dates and have some fun with it. This notion that if you could see yourself possibly marrying the other person on a first date is ridiculous. It may take quite some time until it is revealed if you could possibly marry someone.

I think folks on this forum are really advocating a form of prearranged marriage than anything else. You know this sort of checklist for what the other person needs to fulfill, which to me is a removal of any sort of romance. It's like online dating. I remember trying to register on eHarmony for some laughs and it seriously took me well over 30 minutes to create a profile because you had to be so specific on exactly what you are looking for. I think it is sheer insanity to project a fantasy of what we want in another person to fit in our box. It is too far removed from actually engaging with a person, and you really start to make people turn into standardized tests.

"No I can't really fall in love with you unless you have a credit score of 735, have an index finger length of 4.65", and like diet Snapple iced tea", do you see how absurd this sounds? And this is the future of dating? How frightening. And you are doing the same here "Well I can't fall in love or dive into the passion of romance unless I know I want to marry you.", but again that is nonsense.

As for me, I would rather be swirled up in the mystery of romantic love with no pragmatism. There is an inherent risk with romance that I find to be absolutely thrilling, especially with passion. I don't believe that love should be a checklist of what qualities another person should have nor do I think there is a measurable goal of marriage, either. Why are these requisites to love? They are not. I may very well be in love with another person that I may not actually see myself marrying, perhaps we cannot unify ourselves to be one person and we have divergent personalities or something.
But are we not called to reign in even our passion and submit it to a reason informed by our Orthodox faith? What you advocate sounds too much like just letting our passions blow us where they will. That, to me, is the antithesis of the Orthodox way.
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« Reply #152 on: July 06, 2013, 01:26:48 AM »

I spent half of my time for the last decade trying to have a career where I can change the world. Am I really to give that up for a guy who does not have any particular desire for either of us to do that?
Anastasia, what are you doing in order to change the world? Just curious what your work is. And ignore Kerdy, please. He is becoming increasingly trollish in his behavior, I cannot even begin to approach his ideology without wanting to profusely vomit.
You want to talk about being trollish, Achronos?
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« Reply #153 on: July 06, 2013, 01:32:08 AM »

LOL "love." You guys crack me up.

I don't see why "love" matters so much. I could "love" someone but be completely incompatible with them or they could not be what I want at all. I don't want a wife that I "love," I want a wife that is compatible with my expectations for the marriage.

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.
James, I know this may come as a shock to you, but you do realize women are living, breathing, feeling, actual people, don't you?  They are just as real as men with dreams, goals, plans, needs...just like us.

Now, once you pick yourself up from falling out of your chair, go find a woman and speak to her like a real person.  You may even have a real conversation.

What is it with people here always acting like I don't consider women people? I never said they aren't. The thing is, I don't get "dreams, goals, plans, needs," and "love" and all of that other stuff that everyone fantasizes about. I'm one of the most emotionally detached persons you will ever meet. I don't care about "loving" a woman or if she "loves" me. If we do fall in love, that's good. But that's not my primary concern. My primary concern is finding someone compatible who can fulfill my expectations for marriage and whose expectations I can meet. I want an efficient marriage; not a loving one. I want a wife that can help me in life, regardless of whether or not she loves me. I'd rather be married to someone efficient who I absolutely hate than someone inept who I love.
Wait until you're 26, then tell us what you think. I'd be willing to bet your opinions will be totally different then. Forgive the ad hominem, but this issue of marriage is something you can only learn with age, for it entails much more than just a rational analysis of things. You actually have to experience life to know what you're talking about with marriage.
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« Reply #154 on: July 06, 2013, 02:03:31 AM »

What is it with people here always acting like I don't consider women people? I never said they aren't.

What you post.  That is what’s with it.  It’s one thing to understand the difference between the roles of husband and wife according to Christian teaching.  It’s another to twist that teaching into something it was never intended to be.  Statements like what you have provided is the reason when people like myself speak of the roles, duties and responsibilities within the family of the husband and wife, we are received with a knee jerk reaction of, “I’m not a door mate” foolery.

The thing is, I don't get "dreams, goals, plans, needs," and "love" and all of that other stuff that everyone fantasizes about.

Some people fantasize, others simply want to complete our purpose as best as we can.  I honestly do not know what to say in response to you lack of understanding in regard to dreams and goals.  You should understand needs clear enough.  Love, well brother, that is something life is going to have to teach you.

I'm one of the most emotionally detached persons you will ever meet.

I doubt it.  I used to be a different person than I am today.  In my youth I had almost no emotion, sympathy or anything else which I now consider quality characteristics.

I don't care about "loving" a woman or if she "loves" me.

Yes you do.  It is clear in your previous posts.  What you say now is defensive for your emotional protection.

But that's not my primary concern. My primary concern is finding someone compatible who can fulfill my expectations for marriage and whose expectations I can meet.
Good luck with what you posted here.

I want an efficient marriage; not a loving one.

Those aren’t built to last.

I want a wife that can help me in life, regardless of whether or not she loves me.

If she doesn’t love you, she won’t help you.

I'd rather be married to someone efficient who I absolutely hate than someone inept who I love.

Why not both?




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« Reply #155 on: July 06, 2013, 02:05:50 AM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever.

Then do as you like/want, stop asking for others advice, and live with the penalties.  If you want the easy way rather than the correct way, you can do that all by yourself without the influence of others.
Is that what you think, that the way you present here is always the correct way?

I'm confused.  Are you suggesting she date men whom she has no intention of marrying?
No, not at all. Just pointing out that whatever way Kerdy thinks, he presents his opinion as if it is the one correct way.

...like most people do.  You for instance.
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« Reply #156 on: July 06, 2013, 02:11:10 AM »

The only woman I ever loved broke my heart and I've never loved since then and still frequently dream about her and closed up my heart and became a miserable hermit who hides behind the tough-guy emotionless façade Sad I don't want to love again; it hurts.
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« Reply #157 on: July 06, 2013, 02:12:42 AM »

The only woman I ever loved broke my heart and I've never loved since then and still frequently dream about her and closed up my heart and became a miserable hermit who hides behind the tough-guy emotionless façade Sad I don't want to love again; it hurts.

Welcome to life. Grin  Most people have experienced this.
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« Reply #158 on: July 06, 2013, 02:28:47 AM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever.

Then do as you like/want, stop asking for others advice, and live with the penalties.  If you want the easy way rather than the correct way, you can do that all by yourself without the influence of others.
Is that what you think, that the way you present here is always the correct way?

I'm confused.  Are you suggesting she date men whom she has no intention of marrying?
No, not at all. Just pointing out that whatever way Kerdy thinks, he presents his opinion as if it is the one correct way.

...like most people do.  You for instance.
I'm not talking about most people. I'm talking about you.
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« Reply #159 on: July 06, 2013, 02:30:13 AM »

The only woman I ever loved broke my heart and I've never loved since then and still frequently dream about her and closed up my heart and became a miserable hermit who hides behind the tough-guy emotionless façade Sad I don't want to love again; it hurts.
Ya know, the only way to really grow in life is to risk getting hurt.
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« Reply #160 on: July 06, 2013, 02:50:07 AM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever.

Then do as you like/want, stop asking for others advice, and live with the penalties.  If you want the easy way rather than the correct way, you can do that all by yourself without the influence of others.
Is that what you think, that the way you present here is always the correct way?

I'm confused.  Are you suggesting she date men whom she has no intention of marrying?
No, not at all. Just pointing out that whatever way Kerdy thinks, he presents his opinion as if it is the one correct way.

...like most people do.  You for instance.
I'm not talking about most people. I'm talking about you.

Alrighty then.
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« Reply #161 on: July 06, 2013, 03:00:39 AM »

I want to ask her to marry me. I know it'll result in failure, but she's going to be moving next year for college and I don't want to live in regret forever wondering what could have happened if I asked.
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« Reply #162 on: July 06, 2013, 06:20:46 AM »

The only woman I ever loved broke my heart and I've never loved since then and still frequently dream about her and closed up my heart and became a miserable hermit who hides behind the tough-guy emotionless façade Sad I don't want to love again; it hurts.

Oh, the drama. Roll Eyes

Being an adult is pretty much about going ahead and doing things that you don't like because they're right. Manning up ain't easy.
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« Reply #163 on: July 06, 2013, 08:37:41 AM »

The only woman I ever loved broke my heart and I've never loved since then and still frequently dream about her and closed up my heart and became a miserable hermit who hides behind the tough-guy emotionless façade Sad I don't want to love again; it hurts.

Oh, the drama. Roll Eyes

Being an adult is pretty much about going ahead and doing things that you don't like because they're right. Manning up ain't easy.
So you don't have a heart, got it.

Heartbreak is painful stuff, soul crushing, and you tell him to man up.

Ridiculous.
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« Reply #164 on: July 06, 2013, 10:55:47 AM »

As the king of love Phil Collins would say, you don't really get completely over heartbreak.
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« Reply #165 on: July 06, 2013, 12:43:24 PM »

The only woman I ever loved broke my heart and I've never loved since then and still frequently dream about her and closed up my heart and became a miserable hermit who hides behind the tough-guy emotionless façade Sad I don't want to love again; it hurts.

It happens sometimes. Just wait a little...  I've had fairly morbid feelings in the moment, though they weaken over time. I've even come across similar sentiments in literature, which makes me feel an ounce less like a nutball.
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« Reply #166 on: July 06, 2013, 01:09:40 PM »

The only woman I ever loved broke my heart and I've never loved since then and still frequently dream about her and closed up my heart and became a miserable hermit who hides behind the tough-guy emotionless façade Sad I don't want to love again; it hurts.

Oh, the drama. Roll Eyes

Being an adult is pretty much about going ahead and doing things that you don't like because they're right. Manning up ain't easy.
So you don't have a heart, got it.

Heartbreak is painful stuff, soul crushing, and you tell him to man up.

Ridiculous.
How long has it been since James experienced his heartbreak? If it happened just yesterday, then you are right that Arachne is being crassly insensitive to his need to grieve. If the heartbreak occurred a couple of years ago, then Arachne is right that James is hanging on to his grief for far too long and for his own emotional and spiritual health needs to put the past behind him and move forward with his life.
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« Reply #167 on: July 06, 2013, 01:41:41 PM »

The scriptures clearly tell us to love our wives.

(All esv)
Ephesians 5:25 - Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
Ephesians 5:28 - In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
Colossians 3:19 - Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them.


Love should exist in a marriage, not just mutual benefits.
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« Reply #168 on: July 06, 2013, 03:04:41 PM »

The only woman I ever loved broke my heart and I've never loved since then and still frequently dream about her and closed up my heart and became a miserable hermit who hides behind the tough-guy emotionless façade Sad I don't want to love again; it hurts.

Oh, the drama. Roll Eyes

Being an adult is pretty much about going ahead and doing things that you don't like because they're right. Manning up ain't easy.
So you don't have a heart, got it.

Heartbreak is painful stuff, soul crushing, and you tell him to man up.

Ridiculous.

I don't have much time for teenage tantrums and mountains out of molehills, that's true.
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« Reply #169 on: July 06, 2013, 03:12:11 PM »

The only woman I ever loved broke my heart and I've never loved since then and still frequently dream about her and closed up my heart and became a miserable hermit who hides behind the tough-guy emotionless façade Sad I don't want to love again; it hurts.

Oh, the drama. Roll Eyes

Being an adult is pretty much about going ahead and doing things that you don't like because they're right. Manning up ain't easy.
So you don't have a heart, got it.

Heartbreak is painful stuff, soul crushing, and you tell him to man up.

Ridiculous.

Teenagers. Smiley
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« Reply #170 on: July 06, 2013, 03:15:16 PM »

Geez. I'm not going to tell you people about the dreams I had in my 30s about lost loves, that's for sure!  Kiss
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« Reply #171 on: July 06, 2013, 03:18:09 PM »

The only woman I ever loved broke my heart and I've never loved since then and still frequently dream about her and closed up my heart and became a miserable hermit who hides behind the tough-guy emotionless façade Sad I don't want to love again; it hurts.

Oh, the drama. Roll Eyes

Being an adult is pretty much about going ahead and doing things that you don't like because they're right. Manning up ain't easy.
So you don't have a heart, got it.

Heartbreak is painful stuff, soul crushing, and you tell him to man up.

Ridiculous.
How long has it been since James experienced his heartbreak? If it happened just yesterday, then you are right that Arachne is being crassly insensitive to his need to grieve. If the heartbreak occurred a couple of years ago, then Arachne is right that James is hanging on to his grief for far too long and for his own emotional and spiritual health needs to put the past behind him and move forward with his life.
BTW, many more years of growth will give James the perspective he needs to understand Arachne's advice correctly. A breakup of a high school romance, which is very likely to be just as superficial and immature as those involved in it, is really nothing compared to the untimely death of a spouse or, even worse, a nasty divorce with custody battles.
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« Reply #172 on: July 06, 2013, 03:20:41 PM »

How long has it been since James experienced his heartbreak? If it happened just yesterday, then you are right that Arachne is being crassly insensitive to his need to grieve. If the heartbreak occurred a couple of years ago, then Arachne is right that James is hanging on to his grief for far too long and for his own emotional and spiritual health needs to put the past behind him and move forward with his life.
I believe Arachne is operating under the ideology that people are seen merely as objects and tools, and she can use them for whatever degree in her selfishness. I already chastised her narcissism in another thread, so I'm not doing it here.

What's that saying? Love is like a puzzle and when you are in love all the pieces fit together but when your heart gets broken it takes time to get it all back together.

For some people they may never get it back together and I have been told people need to move forward with leaving all the pieces behind them. But again I think we are assuming too much here. If you have truly loved and truly had some serious heart crushing, you don't really get over it. Sure you can move on, but it isn't the same. Not only does our perception become askewed but we also have that feeling of something ripped out of us on the inside. Everything related to experience is completely covered in heartbreak. As Christians I would think we be more acutely aware of this, just look at our religion. All love is inherently broken, you know we broke love on the cross.

If you had been someone else's missing puzzle piece for years, and you become what they desire, but also at the same time they are your missing piece and it's gone...that is a tremendous loss. You become fragmented and disillusioned. You still have to deal with the past as well as the potentiality of the future, but also our identity has changed with this heartbreak. In the relationship, if JamesR is the subject he takes up the idenity as of that what the other, girlfriend/wife/whatever, desires. Now when this girlfriend rejects James, he becomes radically emasculated. The breakdown of no longer being the subject of the other's desire creates instability and some form of insanity, then you have existential created anxiety about why the other didn't want you and so on and so forth. Then you pretend that you have rationalized your heartbreak later on, but you have a completely different identity and your conception of the world without having your beloved has changed.

But even me writing in words is not enough on the phenomenology of this, it requires poetry to best describe.
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« Reply #173 on: July 06, 2013, 03:29:25 PM »

How long has it been since James experienced his heartbreak? If it happened just yesterday, then you are right that Arachne is being crassly insensitive to his need to grieve. If the heartbreak occurred a couple of years ago, then Arachne is right that James is hanging on to his grief for far too long and for his own emotional and spiritual health needs to put the past behind him and move forward with his life.
I believe Arachne is operating under the ideology that people are seen merely as objects and tools, and she can use them for whatever degree in her selfishness. I already chastised her narcissism in another thread, so I'm not doing it here.

Both in that other thread and here, I'm wondering what on earth you are going on about.

James is a teenager and there's no known cure. I'd ask what your excuse is, but I suspect it already.
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« Reply #174 on: July 06, 2013, 03:35:13 PM »

James, you will get over it in time, believe me.  Until then:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soDZBW-1P04
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« Reply #175 on: July 06, 2013, 03:40:54 PM »

How long has it been since James experienced his heartbreak? If it happened just yesterday, then you are right that Arachne is being crassly insensitive to his need to grieve. If the heartbreak occurred a couple of years ago, then Arachne is right that James is hanging on to his grief for far too long and for his own emotional and spiritual health needs to put the past behind him and move forward with his life.
I believe Arachne is operating under the ideology that people are seen merely as objects and tools, and she can use them for whatever degree in her selfishness. I already chastised her narcissism in another thread, so I'm not doing it here.
Really? Huh I see no evidence that you chastised Arachne for anything prior to this thread. In truth, ISTM from what little I've seen here that she's sharing a sound point of view shaped by life experience--after all, her profile says that she's my age and married--and that you're the one engaging in the narcissism that has long been your calling card on this forum.

What's that saying? Love is like a puzzle and when you are in love all the pieces fit together but when your heart gets broken it takes time to get it all back together.
True, but there's a huge difference between the breakup of a high school fling and the agonies one will experience in the end of an adult relationship.

For some people they may never get it back together and I have been told people need to move forward with leaving all the pieces behind them. But again I think we are assuming too much here. If you have truly loved and truly had some serious heart crushing, you don't really get over it. Sure you can move on, but it isn't the same. Not only does our perception become askewed but we also have that feeling of something ripped out of us on the inside. Everything related to experience is completely covered in heartbreak. As Christians I would think we be more acutely aware of this, just look at our religion. All love is inherently broken, you know we broke love on the cross.
But how mature and how deep can a high school romance really be? It only took me visiting my old high school two years after I had graduated to see how immature high schoolers are. Are teenage children--yes, they are still children--really capable of the maturity of mind and heart necessary to really experience the depths of true love between a man and a woman? James really hasn't experienced anything yet.

If you had been someone else's missing puzzle piece for years, and you become what they desire, but also at the same time they are your missing piece and it's gone...that is a tremendous loss. You become fragmented and disillusioned. You still have to deal with the past as well as the potentiality of the future, but also our identity has changed with this heartbreak. In the relationship, if JamesR is the subject he takes up the idenity as of that what the other, girlfriend/wife/whatever, desires. Now when this girlfriend rejects James, he becomes radically emasculated. The breakdown of no longer being the subject of the other's desire creates instability and some form of insanity, then you have existential created anxiety about why the other didn't want you and so on and so forth. Then you pretend that you have rationalized your heartbreak later on, but you have a completely different identity and your conception of the world without having your beloved has changed.
James is still a kid. He will grow up and develop a much deeper perspective on relationships. This isn't something he can acquire just from reading a book. He needs life experience.
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« Reply #176 on: July 06, 2013, 03:49:46 PM »

Pain happens to everyone at times. It can go away over the years. I remember times I thought I would never live through the upset, but I did. It's not easy, but things will change.
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Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
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« Reply #177 on: July 06, 2013, 03:53:35 PM »

I don't have much time for teenage tantrums and mountains out of molehills, that's true.
Your choice in music says otherwise, considering you spend time on those two things.

Maybe in manning up, JamesR can grow up to be as cold and heartless as yourself. Again you are narcissistic.

Teenage tears sting my eyeballs.
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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
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« Reply #178 on: July 06, 2013, 03:53:35 PM »

BTW, many more years of growth will give James the perspective he needs to understand Arachne's advice correctly. A breakup of a high school romance, which is very likely to be just as superficial and immature as those involved in it, is really nothing compared to the untimely death of a spouse or, even worse, a nasty divorce with custody battles.
Yeah, I can't believe an 18 year old has real emotions and feelings.

I know it's very difficult Peter to understand there is much more than IF A > B, THEN A ← A − B.
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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
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« Reply #179 on: July 06, 2013, 05:03:51 PM »

We were best friends forever and had an on-and-off thing for close to five years, but then during the middle of all that, I ended up moving for a year (due to my dad changing jobs) and it all went downhill. Even now that I'm back, it is no longer the same. It's like I'm a complete stranger to her now. And even worse is that, in a cruel full circle, she is going to be moving away out of state next year.
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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James, you have problemz.
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