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Anastasia1
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« on: June 24, 2013, 12:53:14 AM »

Is it better to date the guy who you are good friends with but wants a little more different life than you do or the guy you don't know well but who has similar life-style/life-style aspirations to what you want?
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« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2013, 01:14:24 AM »

I don't know if one is "better" than the other in a philosophical sense, but you have to ask yourself what is more important to you, especially in a marriage?  Remember, marriage is sacrifice and submission to one another as Christ humbled Himself and sacrificed Himself for the good of the church.  Either way you go, sacrifice is going to be required. You just have to know which you're willing to sacrifice if these are the only two options available to you.
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« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2013, 01:37:07 AM »

It depends upon the differences. People change over time.

Example:
I didn't to ever have children. I married a man that didn't want to have children. We both changed our minds and have 6 children now. When we married we wanted to be in a very, very different place in life than we are now. But we are very happy we aren't where we had always planned to be.
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« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2013, 03:54:14 AM »

It's not either or.

It is dating. Date both.

Decide who you like best, not what theory you like the best.

I know figuring out who you might want to spend your life with by spending time with them is novel concept perhaps to some who believe life is lived by the extrapolation of decisions from principles run through some morality compiler.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 03:54:45 AM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2013, 04:04:40 AM »

It's not either or.

It is dating. Date both.

Decide who you like best, not what theory you like the best.

I know figuring out who you might want to spend your life with by spending time with them is novel concept perhaps to some who believe life is lived by the extrapolation of decisions from principles run through some morality compiler.
Not sure how things would go with someone else or how they would feel about me dating multiple guys, but the guy I have been friends with for a few years and who has been in love with me for six months would to my understanding want to be exclusive, thus there is no both.
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« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2013, 04:08:31 AM »

It's not either or.

It is dating. Date both.

Decide who you like best, not what theory you like the best.

I know figuring out who you might want to spend your life with by spending time with them is novel concept perhaps to some who believe life is lived by the extrapolation of decisions from principles run through some morality compiler.
Not sure how things would go with someone else or how they would feel about me dating multiple guys, but the guy I have been friends with for a few years and who has been in love with me for six months would to my understanding want to be exclusive, thus there is no both.

Dating ain't a commitment.

If a guy is insecure about your dating others without having any commitment from you, I would pass.

But hey its your life and if you think decision by oc.net consensus is helpful have at it.

Oh since you are looking for oc.net consensus, I wouldn't be really thrilled about someone who has been "in love" with me for six months while we have been "friends".

No thanks.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 04:08:54 AM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2013, 05:24:04 AM »

don't date either.
stay friends with both. hang out with either of them in the presence of other friends and get to know each of them better.
if you are not sure which one you want to be with, you are not ready for a serious relationship with either of them.
may God guide u and give u His peace.
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« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2013, 08:52:16 AM »

don't date either.
stay friends with both. hang out with either of them in the presence of other friends and get to know each of them better.
if you are not sure which one you want to be with, you are not ready for a serious relationship with either of them.
may God guide u and give u His peace.

What you mean is 'get to know the other one more'.  She is already good friends with the first one. 

Getting to know a bit more about the other one is probably a good idea.  Right now your lack of knowledge about him is why this is still a balanced equation.  If you can change it from "guy I know/different lifestyle" vs "guy I don't know/same lifestyle" into "guy I know with different lifestyle" vs "guy I know with same lifestyle" then it gets a bit easier to decide.   Wink  Also, if you get to know him them it might show some unacceptable traits and then you still have current friend.

Also, you need to discern if the lifestyle choices the other one has are going to make things impossible.  It might be worth discussing these things with him.  I guess knowing what you mean by "lifestyle" is also important.  If these are immutable personality traits then there could be problems regardless of any promises to "change".
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« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2013, 04:38:17 PM »

It's not either or.

It is dating. Date both.

Decide who you like best, not what theory you like the best.

I know figuring out who you might want to spend your life with by spending time with them is novel concept perhaps to some who believe life is lived by the extrapolation of decisions from principles run through some morality compiler.

I agree with orthonorm.

Unless you think dating means sex, in which case I would suggest you rethink your definition.

Dating is getting together with someone to get to know them better. It isn't about fondling each other as often as possible.
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« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2013, 10:06:01 PM »

I can't tell without pics of all three involved  Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2013, 10:06:55 PM »

I can't tell without pics of all three involved  Smiley

I applaud you, sir. 
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« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2013, 10:11:47 PM »

It's not either or.

It is dating. Date both.

Decide who you like best, not what theory you like the best.

I know figuring out who you might want to spend your life with by spending time with them is novel concept perhaps to some who believe life is lived by the extrapolation of decisions from principles run through some morality compiler.
Not sure how things would go with someone else or how they would feel about me dating multiple guys, but the guy I have been friends with for a few years and who has been in love with me for six months would to my understanding want to be exclusive, thus there is no both.

Dating ain't a commitment.

If a guy is insecure about your dating others without having any commitment from you, I would pass.

But hey its your life and if you think decision by oc.net consensus is helpful have at it.

Oh since you are looking for oc.net consensus, I wouldn't be really thrilled about someone who has been "in love" with me for six months while we have been "friends".

No thanks.
That guy and I dated a little three years ago and then were friends. We've been friends for three years. He's been in love with me for 6 months.
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« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2013, 10:31:57 PM »

What you mean is 'get to know the other one more'.  She is already good friends with the first one.  

Getting to know a bit more about the other one is probably a good idea.  Right now your lack of knowledge about him is why this is still a balanced equation.  If you can change it from "guy I know/different lifestyle" vs "guy I don't know/same lifestyle" into "guy I know with different lifestyle" vs "guy I know with same lifestyle" then it gets a bit easier to decide.   Wink  Also, if you get to know him them it might show some unacceptable traits and then you still have current friend.

Also, you need to discern if the lifestyle choices the other one has are going to make things impossible.  It might be worth discussing these things with him.  I guess knowing what you mean by "lifestyle" is also important.  If these are immutable personality traits then there could be problems regardless of any promises to "change".
I'm doubt I will have the current friend. He and I had a fight, sort of, and I don't think he is interested in staying just friends with me unless it is something more. He's a nice guy, genuinely cares for me, wants a small town life with a family and has a little less ambition than I, small town, small company engineer/wanna be husband and eventually a father. He is definitively Roman rite, white guy, but accepting of eastern Christianity and stuff. One of my friends thinks he is a great guy, and worth keeping. He wants to eventually have four kids. (He is mildly OCD, and I am ADHD.) I do meet similar guys every once in a while, and on some level feel like that is what I am supposed to end up with, but I don't know if I would have to give up too much for that.

His fiance knows another guy whom I do not know much about, but let's say he may represent others as well. His dad is high up in a big company and this guy has a good job, and is friends with the more capitalist friend. (Don't know this particular guy's faith, but this friend is Catholic and knows I am Orthodox and religious.)

I recently decided that I want to start a small business and or non-profit unless I get a really busy or great job and I want to be able to afford to travel at some point. I hope I'm not being shallow here. I spent jr. high and part of high school reading travel guides, dreaming of adventures, just didn't know how to do it or believe that I could. I grew up in a mobile home park, and then had a parent get sick.

I was described a year or two ago as a rural personality with urban tastes. I have to preschedule any evening outings because of family right now, and make slightly above minimum wage, but am working on changing that.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 10:38:23 PM by Anastasia1 » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2013, 07:08:52 AM »

Just date JamesR.

You will get more mileage out of him than your new car.

Are you even sexually attracted to your friend? I wouldn't even bother. I know orthonorm downplays sex as being overrated, but I don't see how you could date someone if you did not find them sexually attractive. Unless you are like an asexual type or something.

And you already had a fight, over what exactly?

You don't have to answer that, obviously.

I guess dudes with good jobs are a turn on here? I mean you aren't Ayn Rand, which is a plus, but maybe you can find a dude that would help jumpstart your business too. Both business and pleasure...

What exactly is a "rural personality"? Is that a nice way of saying redneck? I'm geniuenly curious and have no idea. Urban tastes...such as? Shopping at Macys?

I have no problem knowing exactly what I want from a girl, the problem I have is breaking hearts. So don't do what I do.
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« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2013, 07:08:52 AM »

That guy and I dated a little three years ago and then were friends. We've been friends for three years. He's been in love with me for 6 months.
No guy likes to be friendzoned.

Just FYI.
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« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2013, 07:08:52 AM »

the extrapolation of decisions from principles run through some morality compiler.
Who needs morality when God will give you whatever the hell you want, no matter how selfishly self-centered you are? Hey if Joyce got that Gulfstream, so can I? That's on my heart bro.

No woman has my heart, so God can burden my cross even more so.
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« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2013, 09:20:07 AM »

What you mean is 'get to know the other one more'.  She is already good friends with the first one.  

Getting to know a bit more about the other one is probably a good idea.  Right now your lack of knowledge about him is why this is still a balanced equation.  If you can change it from "guy I know/different lifestyle" vs "guy I don't know/same lifestyle" into "guy I know with different lifestyle" vs "guy I know with same lifestyle" then it gets a bit easier to decide.   Wink  Also, if you get to know him them it might show some unacceptable traits and then you still have current friend.

Also, you need to discern if the lifestyle choices the other one has are going to make things impossible.  It might be worth discussing these things with him.  I guess knowing what you mean by "lifestyle" is also important.  If these are immutable personality traits then there could be problems regardless of any promises to "change".
I'm doubt I will have the current friend. He and I had a fight, sort of, and I don't think he is interested in staying just friends with me unless it is something more. He's a nice guy, genuinely cares for me, wants a small town life with a family and has a little less ambition than I, small town, small company engineer/wanna be husband and eventually a father. He is definitively Roman rite, white guy, but accepting of eastern Christianity and stuff. One of my friends thinks he is a great guy, and worth keeping. He wants to eventually have four kids. (He is mildly OCD, and I am ADHD.) I do meet similar guys every once in a while, and on some level feel like that is what I am supposed to end up with, but I don't know if I would have to give up too much for that.

His fiance knows another guy whom I do not know much about, but let's say he may represent others as well. His dad is high up in a big company and this guy has a good job, and is friends with the more capitalist friend. (Don't know this particular guy's faith, but this friend is Catholic and knows I am Orthodox and religious.)

I recently decided that I want to start a small business and or non-profit unless I get a really busy or great job and I want to be able to afford to travel at some point. I hope I'm not being shallow here. I spent jr. high and part of high school reading travel guides, dreaming of adventures, just didn't know how to do it or believe that I could. I grew up in a mobile home park, and then had a parent get sick.

I was described a year or two ago as a rural personality with urban tastes. I have to preschedule any evening outings because of family right now, and make slightly above minimum wage, but am working on changing that.

Achronos brings up some good points.  If he is friendzoned, he is trying to find a way out of it.  If he finds a replacement for you, don't expect the friendship to last much longer than that.  It might, but don't bet more than $20 on it.

Mystery guy is an unknown variable.  Nothing can be said.

As for life choices, you are at the Rubicon and now you must cast the dice.  Weigh your options and decide which one is more important to you - a family and a relationship or a career.  There is a chance you can have both but there is an equally likely chance that you won't.  This is why it is important to make a hierarchy and then go for that, but note that once the die is cast you may not be able to change your mind and the hurdles may become insurmountable.  Owning a business will take up a lot of energy from you and will devour your time. 
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« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2013, 12:29:54 PM »

I'm doubt I will have the current friend. He and I had a fight, sort of, and I don't think he is interested in staying just friends with me unless it is something more. He's a nice guy, genuinely cares for me, wants a small town life with a family and has a little less ambition than I, small town, small company engineer/wanna be husband and eventually a father. He is definitively Roman rite, white guy, but accepting of eastern Christianity and stuff. One of my friends thinks he is a great guy, and worth keeping. He wants to eventually have four kids. (He is mildly OCD, and I am ADHD.) I do meet similar guys every once in a while, and on some level feel like that is what I am supposed to end up with, but I don't know if I would have to give up too much for that.

His fiance knows another guy whom I do not know much about, but let's say he may represent others as well. His dad is high up in a big company and this guy has a good job, and is friends with the more capitalist friend. (Don't know this particular guy's faith, but this friend is Catholic and knows I am Orthodox and religious.)

I recently decided that I want to start a small business and or non-profit unless I get a really busy or great job and I want to be able to afford to travel at some point. I hope I'm not being shallow here. I spent jr. high and part of high school reading travel guides, dreaming of adventures, just didn't know how to do it or believe that I could. I grew up in a mobile home park, and then had a parent get sick.

I was described a year or two ago as a rural personality with urban tastes. I have to preschedule any evening outings because of family right now, and make slightly above minimum wage, but am working on changing that.

Your friend who wants to be more than a friend already has a fiance?

As to advice, listen to Vamrat.
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« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2013, 02:29:35 PM »

Your friend who wants to be more than a friend already has a fiance?
A lady once complained to me that all her husband did was "drink, drink, drink... he's sloppy drunk every single day and I'm just sick of it all."

In the course of the conversation I happened to ask (not fishing, just by chance) where they met. "In a bar" she said.
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« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2013, 02:49:46 PM »

I'm doubt I will have the current friend. He and I had a fight, sort of, and I don't think he is interested in staying just friends with me unless it is something more. He's a nice guy, genuinely cares for me, wants a small town life with a family and has a little less ambition than I, small town, small company engineer/wanna be husband and eventually a father. He is definitively Roman rite, white guy, but accepting of eastern Christianity and stuff. One of my friends thinks he is a great guy, and worth keeping. He wants to eventually have four kids. (He is mildly OCD, and I am ADHD.) I do meet similar guys every once in a while, and on some level feel like that is what I am supposed to end up with, but I don't know if I would have to give up too much for that.

His fiance knows another guy whom I do not know much about, but let's say he may represent others as well. His dad is high up in a big company and this guy has a good job, and is friends with the more capitalist friend. (Don't know this particular guy's faith, but this friend is Catholic and knows I am Orthodox and religious.)


I recently decided that I want to start a small business and or non-profit unless I get a really busy or great job and I want to be able to afford to travel at some point. I hope I'm not being shallow here. I spent jr. high and part of high school reading travel guides, dreaming of adventures, just didn't know how to do it or believe that I could. I grew up in a mobile home park, and then had a parent get sick.

I was described a year or two ago as a rural personality with urban tastes. I have to preschedule any evening outings because of family right now, and make slightly above minimum wage, but am working on changing that.

Your friend who wants to be more than a friend already has a fiance?

As to advice, listen to Vamrat.

yeah in addition to clarifying that Anastasia, can you answer Achronos's first question about sexual attraction?

he might love you and that might feel good for one's ego but the real question is do you or can you return the sentiment?

I too had trouble understanding those sentences I have highlighted in addition to what tuesdayschild did.

and I agree, excellent advice Vamrat, especially his last paragraph Anastasia.
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« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2013, 09:29:57 PM »

I'm doubt I will have the current friend. B and I had a fight, sort of, and I don't think B is interested in staying just friends with me unless it is something more. B's a nice guy, genuinely cares for me, wants a small town life with a family and has a little less ambition than I, small town, small company engineer/wanna be husband and eventually a father. B is definitively Roman rite, white guy, but accepting of eastern Christianity and stuff. One of my friends (E) thinks B is a great guy, and worth keeping. B wants to eventually have four kids. (B is mildly OCD, and I am ADHD.) I do meet similar guys every once in a while, and on some level feel like that is what I am supposed to end up with, but I don't know if I would have to give up too much for that.

E's fiance (K) knows another guy whom I do not know much about, but let's say he (x) may represent others as well. X's dad is high up in a big company, and X has a good job, and is friends with the more capitalist friend. (Don't know this particular guy's faith, but this friend (K) is Catholic and knows I am Orthodox and religious.)


I recently decided that I want to start a small business and or non-profit unless I get a really busy or great job and I want to be able to afford to travel at some point. I hope I'm not being shallow here. I spent jr. high and part of high school reading travel guides, dreaming of adventures, just didn't know how to do it or believe that I could. I grew up in a mobile home park, and then had a parent get sick.

I was described a year or two ago as a rural personality with urban tastes. I have to preschedule any evening outings because of family right now, and make slightly above minimum wage, but am working on changing that.

Your friend who wants to be more than a friend already has a fiance?

As to advice, listen to Vamrat.

yeah in addition to clarifying that Anastasia, can you answer Achronos's first question about sexual attraction?

he might love you and that might feel good for one's ego but the real question is do you or can you return the sentiment?

I too had trouble understanding those sentences I have highlighted in addition to what tuesdayschild did.

and I agree, excellent advice Vamrat, especially his last paragraph Anastasia.
I have two friends (E and K) that are engaged and this guy (B) who is in love with me is another guy. Total of three people. The woman in the engaged couple knows another guy (4th person) who the thought of setting me up with had crossed her mind.

This guy that is in love with me, he is sort of cute, but I would be more attracted to him if he was more a bold guy, and a go-getter, less of a quiet little home somewhere with wife and kids and not much else that he needs in life. (Is it bad to say that about such an approach to life?)

The context of urban vs. rural was in asking if I seemed like I belonged more with an urban city guy or a rural country guy.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 09:31:41 PM by Anastasia1 » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2013, 09:36:41 PM »

As for life choices, you are at the Rubicon and now you must cast the dice.  Weigh your options and decide which one is more important to you - a family and a relationship or a career.  There is a chance you can have both but there is an equally likely chance that you won't.  This is why it is important to make a hierarchy and then go for that, but note that once the die is cast you may not be able to change your mind and the hurdles may become insurmountable.  Owning a business will take up a lot of energy from you and will devour your time. 
I want to be a soccer mom one day, but I don't want to complete give up on having a career when I have hardly had a decent one so far and it is just beginning to get good, and especially when the future dominant family provider has been more concerned with finding a wife than growing the career he would care for his children with.
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« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2013, 09:50:04 PM »

I guess dudes with good jobs are a turn on here? I mean you aren't Ayn Rand, which is a plus, but maybe you can find a dude that would help jumpstart your business too. Both business and pleasure...
How does Ayn Rand fit in?

The most sexually attractive celebrity guys I know of that I would not date are Jose Mourinho and Stephen Colbert. Very confident (at least to the audience), honorary graduate degrees, highly successful, brunette, average height, fit-looking build, well-dressed-is there anything more attractive on a guy than dress clothing, especially well-tailored dress clothing?

That guy and I dated a little three years ago and then were friends. We've been friends for three years. He's been in love with me for 6 months.
No guy likes to be friendzoned.

Just FYI.
B originally broke up with me. Then said that he loved me two years later, then I told him I didn't want to be in a relationship with him because I was still thinking over what I wanted in a guy.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 10:07:52 PM by Anastasia1 » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2013, 10:20:02 PM »

The most sexually attractive celebrity guys I know of that I would not date are Jose Mourinho and Stephen Colbert.

Colbert is sexy?  Even with those ears?  Tongue
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« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2013, 10:26:33 PM »

The most sexually attractive celebrity guys I know of that I would not date are Jose Mourinho and Stephen Colbert.

Colbert is sexy?  Even with those ears?  Tongue

He's confident, charismatic and smooth... that's essentially the same as sexy for most women Huh
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« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2013, 10:37:05 PM »

If the OP won't date Colbert, would she date David Letterman or Jimmy Fallon?
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« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2013, 08:49:49 AM »

As for life choices, you are at the Rubicon and now you must cast the dice.  Weigh your options and decide which one is more important to you - a family and a relationship or a career.  There is a chance you can have both but there is an equally likely chance that you won't.  This is why it is important to make a hierarchy and then go for that, but note that once the die is cast you may not be able to change your mind and the hurdles may become insurmountable.  Owning a business will take up a lot of energy from you and will devour your time. 
I want to be a soccer mom one day, but I don't want to complete give up on having a career when I have hardly had a decent one so far and it is just beginning to get good,

Just decide which one is most important and accept that the second place one might not come true.  The point is to acheive maximum happiness from whichever one you put the most effort towards.  If you do get both and one of the two is stressed, your hierarchy should help you to handle it.  Keep in mind that if you do go for the husband and children route, the family should ALWAYS come before the career.  If one has to go, it is better to not ruin the lives of several other people.  Employees are infinitely replaceable (right to work laws prove this) a mother/wife really isn't.  Keep this in mind when determining your hierarchy. 

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and especially when the future dominant family provider has been more concerned with finding a wife than growing the career he would care for his children with.

Too many men these days think that "Disregard females, acquire currency" is a joke.  Rather, it is the best advice floating around out there for men under 30.
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« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2013, 09:55:49 AM »

As for life choices, you are at the Rubicon and now you must cast the dice.  Weigh your options and decide which one is more important to you - a family and a relationship or a career.  There is a chance you can have both but there is an equally likely chance that you won't.  This is why it is important to make a hierarchy and then go for that, but note that once the die is cast you may not be able to change your mind and the hurdles may become insurmountable.  Owning a business will take up a lot of energy from you and will devour your time.  
I want to be a soccer mom one day, but I don't want to complete give up on having a career when I have hardly had a decent one so far and it is just beginning to get good,

Just decide which one is most important and accept that the second place one might not come true.  The point is to acheive maximum happiness from whichever one you put the most effort towards.  If you do get both and one of the two is stressed, your hierarchy should help you to handle it.  Keep in mind that if you do go for the husband and children route, the family should ALWAYS come before the career.  If one has to go, it is better to not ruin the lives of several other people.  Employees are infinitely replaceable (right to work laws prove this) a mother/wife really isn't.  Keep this in mind when determining your hierarchy.  

Quote
and especially when the future dominant family provider has been more concerned with finding a wife than growing the career he would care for his children with.

Too many men these days think that "Disregard females, acquire currency" is a joke.  Rather, it is the best advice floating around out there for men under 30.

Frankly, your advice throughout this thread is in my opinion is either psychic suicide or psychic styrofoam. And I am not sure if I know the difference between the two.

Achieving maximum happiness? I don't think even Benthem managed utter such a depressing maximum. Maybe he did. I am not sure that happy quite had the same connotation in his day.

Oh well. But everyone knows no one hardly ever listens to advice anyway.
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« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2013, 10:13:52 AM »

As for life choices, you are at the Rubicon and now you must cast the dice.  Weigh your options and decide which one is more important to you - a family and a relationship or a career.  There is a chance you can have both but there is an equally likely chance that you won't.  This is why it is important to make a hierarchy and then go for that, but note that once the die is cast you may not be able to change your mind and the hurdles may become insurmountable.  Owning a business will take up a lot of energy from you and will devour your time.  
I want to be a soccer mom one day, but I don't want to complete give up on having a career when I have hardly had a decent one so far and it is just beginning to get good,

Just decide which one is most important and accept that the second place one might not come true.  The point is to acheive maximum happiness from whichever one you put the most effort towards.  If you do get both and one of the two is stressed, your hierarchy should help you to handle it.  Keep in mind that if you do go for the husband and children route, the family should ALWAYS come before the career.  If one has to go, it is better to not ruin the lives of several other people.  Employees are infinitely replaceable (right to work laws prove this) a mother/wife really isn't.  Keep this in mind when determining your hierarchy.  

Quote
and especially when the future dominant family provider has been more concerned with finding a wife than growing the career he would care for his children with.

Too many men these days think that "Disregard females, acquire currency" is a joke.  Rather, it is the best advice floating around out there for men under 30.

Frankly, your advice throughout this thread is in my opinion is either psychic suicide or psychic styrofoam. And I am not sure if I know the difference between the two.

Don't worry.  Neither do I.

Quote
Achieving maximum happiness? I don't think even Benthem managed utter such a depressing maximum. Maybe he did. I am not sure that happy quite had the same connotation in his day.

I would have said "maximum gaiety" but I didn't want an overzealous mod to think I was waxing political.

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Oh well. But everyone knows no one hardly ever listens to advice anyway.

'Twas better to have fought and lost than not have fought at all.
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« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2013, 10:34:57 AM »

I'm doubt I will have the current friend. B and I had a fight, sort of, and I don't think B is interested in staying just friends with me unless it is something more. B's a nice guy, genuinely cares for me, wants a small town life with a family and has a little less ambition than I, small town, small company engineer/wanna be husband and eventually a father. B is definitively Roman rite, white guy, but accepting of eastern Christianity and stuff. One of my friends (E) thinks B is a great guy, and worth keeping. B wants to eventually have four kids. (B is mildly OCD, and I am ADHD.) I do meet similar guys every once in a while, and on some level feel like that is what I am supposed to end up with, but I don't know if I would have to give up too much for that.

E's fiance (K) knows another guy whom I do not know much about, but let's say he (x) may represent others as well. X's dad is high up in a big company, and X has a good job, and is friends with the more capitalist friend. (Don't know this particular guy's faith, but this friend (K) is Catholic and knows I am Orthodox and religious.)


I recently decided that I want to start a small business and or non-profit unless I get a really busy or great job and I want to be able to afford to travel at some point. I hope I'm not being shallow here. I spent jr. high and part of high school reading travel guides, dreaming of adventures, just didn't know how to do it or believe that I could. I grew up in a mobile home park, and then had a parent get sick.

I was described a year or two ago as a rural personality with urban tastes. I have to preschedule any evening outings because of family right now, and make slightly above minimum wage, but am working on changing that.

Your friend who wants to be more than a friend already has a fiance?

As to advice, listen to Vamrat.

yeah in addition to clarifying that Anastasia, can you answer Achronos's first question about sexual attraction?

he might love you and that might feel good for one's ego but the real question is do you or can you return the sentiment?

I too had trouble understanding those sentences I have highlighted in addition to what tuesdayschild did.

and I agree, excellent advice Vamrat, especially his last paragraph Anastasia.
I have two friends (E and K) that are engaged and this guy (B) who is in love with me is another guy. Total of three people. The woman in the engaged couple knows another guy (4th person) who the thought of setting me up with had crossed her mind.

This guy that is in love with me, he is sort of cute, but I would be more attracted to him if he was more a bold guy, and a go-getter, less of a quiet little home somewhere with wife and kids and not much else that he needs in life. (Is it bad to say that about such an approach to life?)

The context of urban vs. rural was in asking if I seemed like I belonged more with an urban city guy or a rural country guy.

Thank you for clarifying, Anastasia1.

Regarding your friend B, you describe him as Roman Rite but accepting of eastern Christianity, a mildly OCD engineer (imagine that!) wanting the small town family life.  And you don't want him? Okay. I know a couple of cute young ladies that are looking for a stable, employed, devout Christian man. PM his contact info. If he plays his cards right, he might just find himself in a frivorce-proof marriage to a sweet little homemaker.
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« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2013, 02:33:49 PM »

That guy and I dated a little three years ago and then were friends. We've been friends for three years. He's been in love with me for 6 months.
Did he 'declare his love' six months ago, or get friendly then, or what?

Tha sounds rather odd.
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« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2013, 04:19:59 PM »

when i was 15 i started to think about marriage.
i knew 2 guys who were Christian and who were within 2 years of my age. (it was a mainly pagan / atheist town).
i spent ages agonising over whether i wanted to be with the more spiritual one who had terrible achne but was kind, or the good looking one who only went to Christian meetings when he had too.
after a few months, i realised that these kind of deliberations indicated that i was way off being ready and i allowed myself to loose touch with both guys.
i decided to not think about guys at all until i was 18!

now i know you are older than 18, but i'm sharing my experience in case it is useful, and instead of asking you too many personal questions.

also sending u p.m. so u can see the story had a happy ending!
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« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2013, 05:23:20 PM »

Date the Orthodox one if not, the friend.
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« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2013, 01:38:15 AM »

That guy and I dated a little three years ago and then were friends. We've been friends for three years. He's been in love with me for 6 months.
Did he 'declare his love' six months ago, or get friendly then, or what?

Tha sounds rather odd.
He declared his love after a dinner out with a group of my friends and again the other night. I suspected he liked me already, but he also stayed a good friend after he broke up with me like 2.5 years ago (wanted someone more Catholic).
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« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2013, 03:46:41 PM »

You know where you can find lots of great single men?  Monasteries. 

Its like shooting fish in a barrel.  Grin
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« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2013, 07:07:04 PM »

That guy and I dated a little three years ago and then were friends. We've been friends for three years. He's been in love with me for 6 months.
Did he 'declare his love' six months ago, or get friendly then, or what?

Tha sounds rather odd.
He declared his love after a dinner out with a group of my friends and again the other night. I suspected he liked me already, but he also stayed a good friend after he broke up with me like 2.5 years ago (wanted someone more Catholic).
Sounds like a lot of trouble to me. But who knows.
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« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2013, 10:11:20 AM »

I'm doubt I will have the current friend. B and I had a fight, sort of, and I don't think B is interested in staying just friends with me unless it is something more. B's a nice guy, genuinely cares for me, wants a small town life with a family and has a little less ambition than I, small town, small company engineer/wanna be husband and eventually a father. B is definitively Roman rite, white guy, but accepting of eastern Christianity and stuff. One of my friends (E) thinks B is a great guy, and worth keeping. B wants to eventually have four kids. (B is mildly OCD, and I am ADHD.) I do meet similar guys every once in a while, and on some level feel like that is what I am supposed to end up with, but I don't know if I would have to give up too much for that.

E's fiance (K) knows another guy whom I do not know much about, but let's say he (x) may represent others as well. X's dad is high up in a big company, and X has a good job, and is friends with the more capitalist friend. (Don't know this particular guy's faith, but this friend (K) is Catholic and knows I am Orthodox and religious.)


I recently decided that I want to start a small business and or non-profit unless I get a really busy or great job and I want to be able to afford to travel at some point. I hope I'm not being shallow here. I spent jr. high and part of high school reading travel guides, dreaming of adventures, just didn't know how to do it or believe that I could. I grew up in a mobile home park, and then had a parent get sick.

I was described a year or two ago as a rural personality with urban tastes. I have to preschedule any evening outings because of family right now, and make slightly above minimum wage, but am working on changing that.

Your friend who wants to be more than a friend already has a fiance?

As to advice, listen to Vamrat.

yeah in addition to clarifying that Anastasia, can you answer Achronos's first question about sexual attraction?

he might love you and that might feel good for one's ego but the real question is do you or can you return the sentiment?

I too had trouble understanding those sentences I have highlighted in addition to what tuesdayschild did.

and I agree, excellent advice Vamrat, especially his last paragraph Anastasia.
I have two friends (E and K) that are engaged and this guy (B) who is in love with me is another guy. Total of three people. The woman in the engaged couple knows another guy (4th person) who the thought of setting me up with had crossed her mind.

This guy that is in love with me, he is sort of cute, but I would be more attracted to him if he was more a bold guy, and a go-getter, less of a quiet little home somewhere with wife and kids and not much else that he needs in life. (Is it bad to say that about such an approach to life?)

The context of urban vs. rural was in asking if I seemed like I belonged more with an urban city guy or a rural country guy.

Thank you for the clarification Anastasia.

Anastasia , I don’t know how serious your question was or whether or not it was a rhetorical one, but in case it was a serious one I find it to be very difficult to answer without who I am coloring my perspective into a knee jerk reply. So let me just say because of that difficulty I am going to take a while in making my point, so please bear with me.


From an evolutionary perspective at least, your approach towards relationships and what you find attractive and worth pursuing makes a perfect sense.  Where survival is at stake, things get basic. However, fortunately or unfortunately depending on how you look at it, the human being is quite a complex creature. In addition to All the basic instincts or drives for safety and survival  humans have other higher instincts as well that are as much part of what and who they are as the basic ones they share with all life on this planet. The part of them that seeks purpose, truth, beauty, love etc. is a powerful drive even trumping the survival drive.so fair warning, the ancient maxim ‘ know thyself’ is as profound now as it was then.


Seeing as you are into business, I am sure you know about the concept of opportunity cost. I am not pitching for either your friend or the other guy you talked about, but to address the general point of what you described as flaws in your friend as it relates to your question. Your friend wants what some might describe as ‘ the simple life’ but depending on how you look at it, there is nothing simple about it , it is the grand life, a very demanding life one that demands everything from a man or a woman.  so lets compare between the man who makes his family first in his heart vs the go getter who rather amass wealth and power and then accessorize with a family unit that suits his image.

The opportunity cost of going along with a man who makes his career first is immense. If and I say if what you had in mind is making such a man make you be first in his life, then there lies the contradiction of what you seek. Changing him is a risk you will take in that failure means incalculable consequences. The devastation such a man or a woman leaves is indescribable; life is full of ugly examples of it. When you add kids to the mix, no matter how many soccer games you take them to, no matter how much of their material needs are fulfilled, that higher drive I mentioned would not let them be content without the proper balance of love, devotion, respect etc. from both their parents toward one another and towards them. His family is and will remain second in many ways than one, they will be trophies, among many trophies such power and influence offers him.


The opportunity cost of finding a man who loves his family above all other things that this world offers him, is knowing that he will demand the same from you.  He might not be a millionaire but he will do his very best to provide for his family that includes encouraging and supporting your dreams and ambitions …. Because he loves. He might not buy you your dream house, but he will always try to make wherever you are the happiest home you have known… because he loves.  He might not afford that platinum ring you wanted but with the ring he offers you he will give you himself, his love, his fidelity, his protection his trust, his very life… because he loves. He might never become the CEO of a thriving company commanding many under him, but he will definitely be a true father to his kids… because he loves. He might not be able to take you to different places you want to see around the world, but he can send you to a different galaxy with his touch. Need I go on? mention growing old together, in sickness and in health, for richer or poorer?  in good times or in the not so pleasant surprises that life throws at us? I fear I am going to tire or bore you too much. In plain terms without adding any other factor such as the role of faith in a person’s life,  I am just saying choose wisely in regard to such approach to life, you have the advantage of your time, you are living in the 21st century. Which gives you the luxury of playing for the highest prize: Love, it holds everything within it.


I will also suggest take time to ‘ know thyself’  I am not talking about the urban vs. rural type of reflection.. ask the big questions  the questions themselves are most often the answers. So good luck my dear Anastasia Smiley
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« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2013, 04:46:14 PM »

What is wrong with me then that I am not as attracted to "the simple life" kind of guys?

And how do I deal with the fact that I take prescription medication and my future children may end up doing the same (though hopefully less), and living out in the desert is bad for my asthma (dust and particulate stuff)?

And how am I supposed to not want any of that other stuff, like a vacation to Europe one day, or should I just give up on relationships for now and adopt one day if I ever get married?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 04:46:39 PM by Anastasia1 » Logged

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« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2013, 05:04:46 PM »

What is wrong with me then that I am not as attracted to "the simple life" kind of guys?

And how do I deal with the fact that I take prescription medication and my future children may end up doing the same (though hopefully less), and living out in the desert is bad for my asthma (dust and particulate stuff)?

And how am I supposed to not want any of that other stuff, like a vacation to Europe one day, or should I just give up on relationships for now and adopt one day if I ever get married?

I was afraid of this my dear Anastasia, this being the fact that I will fail to communicate my point. forgive and please ignore me on this one.Smiley
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« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2013, 06:50:23 PM »

What is wrong with me then that I am not as attracted to "the simple life" kind of guys?

And how do I deal with the fact that I take prescription medication and my future children may end up doing the same (though hopefully less), and living out in the desert is bad for my asthma (dust and particulate stuff)?

And how am I supposed to not want any of that other stuff, like a vacation to Europe one day, or should I just give up on relationships for now and adopt one day if I ever get married?

I was afraid of this my dear Anastasia, this being the fact that I will fail to communicate my point. forgive and please ignore me on this one.Smiley
Is that a reflection of a contradiction between my perception of being told I should want one thing and my actually desires being slightly different and resulting things like threads like this from my difficulty working through it?
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« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2013, 08:39:36 PM »

What is wrong with me then that I am not as attracted to "the simple life" kind of guys?

And how do I deal with the fact that I take prescription medication and my future children may end up doing the same (though hopefully less), and living out in the desert is bad for my asthma (dust and particulate stuff)?

And how am I supposed to not want any of that other stuff, like a vacation to Europe one day, or should I just give up on relationships for now and adopt one day if I ever get married?

I was afraid of this my dear Anastasia, this being the fact that I will fail to communicate my point. forgive and please ignore me on this one.Smiley
Is that a reflection of a contradiction between my perception of being told I should want one thing and my actually desires being slightly different and resulting things like threads like this from my difficulty working through it?

I am sorry Anastasia, telling you who to want was not my intention and in my mind I thought I avoided that audacity, but I see now that perhaps I have not. like you said, who you want, what you want are ultimately yours to decide, threads like this serve a purpose and I admire your openness for getting different perspective. take my comments as one perspective on those types of issues and nothing more. if they help to see things from a different angle fine, if not send them to the recycle bin. my path is certainly not your path and vice versa and life had different things to teach me. I've came across the opulent and the destitute, know life can be beautiful as it is horrible, still I know I am quite naïve on certain things and very stubborn on others.so my perspective is skewed for various reasons. I found replying to your 'is it bad' question difficult for that reason, good or bad is not my place to decide for you. but because you asked , showing you what I see in general was enough for me. ultimately your life, yours to decide on how to live it. that we definitely agree on.
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« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2013, 02:40:17 AM »

I honestly believe that many young women have a perception of what they want in a spouse based upon faulty ideas of what marriage/romance/love/success is.

My husband seems like a quiet guy. He is in general not a real go-getter kind of person. But when it comes to his family he is anything but a quiet unassuming man.

In the long run you want a man that knows when to fight, and when not to fight. A man that fights everything has no concept as to what is truly important. That type of posturing gets really old, really fast. Most of the real go-getter competitive types end up driving me nuts fairly quickly.


And speaking as someone from a relatively small town that moved to a very urban area; you may not like that urban life all that much once you have it. The first few years are alright. After awhile that small town feel is something you miss. In a big urban area there isn't a sense of community. Ideally I would like a suburban life. I would like to live within 30-45 minutes of the city, but not *in* the city.
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« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2013, 08:01:45 AM »

I honestly believe that many young women have a perception of what they want in a spouse based upon faulty ideas of what marriage/romance/love/success is.

My husband seems like a quiet guy. He is in general not a real go-getter kind of person. But when it comes to his family he is anything but a quiet unassuming man.

In the long run you want a man that knows when to fight, and when not to fight. A man that fights everything has no concept as to what is truly important. That type of posturing gets really old, really fast. Most of the real go-getter competitive types end up driving me nuts fairly quickly.


And speaking as someone from a relatively small town that moved to a very urban area; you may not like that urban life all that much once you have it. The first few years are alright. After awhile that small town feel is something you miss. In a big urban area there isn't a sense of community. Ideally I would like a suburban life. I would like to live within 30-45 minutes of the city, but not *in* the city.
I know many young men and women who love the urban life while single, but once you have kids, priorities often change and boring suburbia seems to be the more attractive option.
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« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2013, 08:11:35 AM »

Advice List:

1) Don’t take advice from those too young to give it out.
2) Don’t take advice from someone who immediately asks sexual or sensual questions.  That isn't what it's all about.
3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
4) Pray about it.  God may have neither of them planned for you.  For instance, are they Orthodox?
5) Don’t rush into anything.
6) Follow your heart as God provides.

« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 08:17:43 AM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2013, 10:23:23 AM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever. Spat out by Christians and the like to sounds wise but never really answers what could be a good mate. (i.e. heard that one 40 times and followed it since 6 years before I had an opportunity to have a first date.)
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« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2013, 10:45:28 AM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever. Spat out by Christians and the like to sounds wise but never really answers what could be a good mate. (i.e. heard that one 40 times and followed it since 6 years before I had an opportunity to have a first date.)

I don't know much about dating since I only ever dated one person and that was my now wife.  The only thing I can say is focus on making friendships and getting to know people of the opposite sex. The most healthy marriages that I have ever seen came from the two people having a close friendship that developed into something more.  If that is the approach you take, Kerdy's point makes sense. Otherwise, if you just randomly go on dates with the intention of marrying the person, you are going to make yourself neurotic.
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« Reply #46 on: July 01, 2013, 05:08:53 PM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever.

Then do as you like/want, stop asking for others advice, and live with the penalties.  If you want the easy way rather than the correct way, you can do that all by yourself without the influence of others.

Apparently, no one informed you of the purpose for "dating".  You can get to know someone without "dating" them.  But what do I know?  I have only been married almost 18 years to the woman who was my best friend before we started actually dating (and still is) and ruined a lot of good friendships doing what you apparently want to do prior to that.  
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« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2013, 05:17:13 PM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
Spat out by Christians and the like to sounds wise but never really answers what could be a good mate. (i.e. heard that one 40 times and followed it since 6 years before I had an opportunity to have a first date.)

Only you know what is a potential mate for you.  Everyone has different things they need in a mate.  What works for you may not work for anyone else.  Six years, thats all?  I have a good friend who didn’t marry until 35 after several of her boyfriends, including one fiancé, turned out to be real shmucks.  My advice to her was my advice to you.  Stop forcing it and wait for God.  She is extremely happy now with a daughter.
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« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2013, 05:50:30 PM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever. Spat out by Christians and the like to sounds wise but never really answers what could be a good mate. (i.e. heard that one 40 times and followed it since 6 years before I had an opportunity to have a first date.)

I don't know much about dating since I only ever dated one person and that was my now wife.  The only thing I can say is focus on making friendships and getting to know people of the opposite sex. The most healthy marriages that I have ever seen came from the two people having a close friendship that developed into something more.  If that is the approach you take, Kerdy's point makes sense. Otherwise, if you just randomly go on dates with the intention of marrying the person, you are going to make yourself neurotic.

Heterosexuals of the opposite sex don't have close friendships outside of a romantic framework, unless there is, what did Neech say led to the exception to the rule, physical antipathy I believe it is.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 05:50:40 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2013, 06:35:42 PM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever.

Then do as you like/want, stop asking for others advice, and live with the penalties.  If you want the easy way rather than the correct way, you can do that all by yourself without the influence of others.
Is that what you think, that the way you present here is always the correct way?
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« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2013, 06:46:33 PM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever.

Then do as you like/want, stop asking for others advice, and live with the penalties.  If you want the easy way rather than the correct way, you can do that all by yourself without the influence of others.
Is that what you think, that the way you present here is always the correct way?
Doesn't everyone?

Not just an opinion of mine, BTW.

Someone else said opposite sexes can't have close friendships.  False. 
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 06:48:48 PM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #51 on: July 01, 2013, 07:36:20 PM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever.

Then do as you like/want, stop asking for others advice, and live with the penalties.  If you want the easy way rather than the correct way, you can do that all by yourself without the influence of others.
Is that what you think, that the way you present here is always the correct way?
Doesn't everyone?
No, but you seem to.
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« Reply #52 on: July 01, 2013, 08:10:34 PM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever.

Then do as you like/want, stop asking for others advice, and live with the penalties.  If you want the easy way rather than the correct way, you can do that all by yourself without the influence of others.
Is that what you think, that the way you present here is always the correct way?
Doesn't everyone?
No, but you seem to.

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« Reply #53 on: July 01, 2013, 09:24:42 PM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever. Spat out by Christians and the like to sounds wise but never really answers what could be a good mate. (i.e. heard that one 40 times and followed it since 6 years before I had an opportunity to have a first date.)

I don't know much about dating since I only ever dated one person and that was my now wife.  The only thing I can say is focus on making friendships and getting to know people of the opposite sex. The most healthy marriages that I have ever seen came from the two people having a close friendship that developed into something more.  If that is the approach you take, Kerdy's point makes sense. Otherwise, if you just randomly go on dates with the intention of marrying the person, you are going to make yourself neurotic.

Heterosexuals of the opposite sex don't have close friendships outside of a romantic framework, unless there is, what did Neech say led to the exception to the rule, physical antipathy I believe it is.


I would have loved to disagree with him on this. I would be lying. no matter how sanitized one tries to make such friendships if they are really close that element creeps in and things get complicated. making purely platonic a false claim. situation acknowledged and managed ? yeah, but purely platonic? no.  it took me years to concede to this fact.
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« Reply #54 on: July 01, 2013, 09:52:39 PM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever.

Then do as you like/want, stop asking for others advice, and live with the penalties.  If you want the easy way rather than the correct way, you can do that all by yourself without the influence of others.
Is that what you think, that the way you present here is always the correct way?
Doesn't everyone?
No, but you seem to.
Sure they do.  I read it here everyday.

As for my response to her her reply, there is a difference between sincerely seeking the right answer and simply looking for confirmation of what one wants.  Of course, I can't read her mind, but from her reply it seems the latter may be the case.  Only she knows for certain.  In any event, when one asks for others advice, one must be prepared to hear (or read) that advice even if they do not like it.  They also should not cast disparaging judgment of that advice when it clearly has worked (and complies with what we are instructed to do) for so many people.  Bottom line is, it's her choice.  Now she has a different perspective outside of, "do ya wanna have sex with one of them?".
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 09:58:28 PM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2013, 07:59:32 AM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever. Spat out by Christians and the like to sounds wise but never really answers what could be a good mate. (i.e. heard that one 40 times and followed it since 6 years before I had an opportunity to have a first date.)

I don't know much about dating since I only ever dated one person and that was my now wife.  The only thing I can say is focus on making friendships and getting to know people of the opposite sex. The most healthy marriages that I have ever seen came from the two people having a close friendship that developed into something more.  If that is the approach you take, Kerdy's point makes sense. Otherwise, if you just randomly go on dates with the intention of marrying the person, you are going to make yourself neurotic.

Heterosexuals of the opposite sex don't have close friendships outside of a romantic framework, unless there is, what did Neech say led to the exception to the rule, physical antipathy I believe it is.


I would have loved to disagree with him on this. I would be lying. no matter how sanitized one tries to make such friendships if they are really close that element creeps in and things get complicated. making purely platonic a false claim. situation acknowledged and managed ? yeah, but purely platonic? no.  it took me years to concede to this fact.
Huh?  I have numerous female friends that I have never considered to be even remotely romantic. My wife has several male friends that she is not interested in from a romantic context. Before I was married, I had a lot of female friends that I didn't consider as potential mates.
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« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2013, 09:08:27 AM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever. Spat out by Christians and the like to sounds wise but never really answers what could be a good mate. (i.e. heard that one 40 times and followed it since 6 years before I had an opportunity to have a first date.)

I don't know much about dating since I only ever dated one person and that was my now wife.  The only thing I can say is focus on making friendships and getting to know people of the opposite sex. The most healthy marriages that I have ever seen came from the two people having a close friendship that developed into something more.  If that is the approach you take, Kerdy's point makes sense. Otherwise, if you just randomly go on dates with the intention of marrying the person, you are going to make yourself neurotic.

Heterosexuals of the opposite sex don't have close friendships outside of a romantic framework, unless there is, what did Neech say led to the exception to the rule, physical antipathy I believe it is.


I would have loved to disagree with him on this. I would be lying. no matter how sanitized one tries to make such friendships if they are really close that element creeps in and things get complicated. making purely platonic a false claim. situation acknowledged and managed ? yeah, but purely platonic? no.  it took me years to concede to this fact.
Huh?  I have numerous female friends that I have never considered to be even remotely romantic. My wife has several male friends that she is not interested in from a romantic context. Before I was married, I had a lot of female friends that I didn't consider as potential mates.

But would you have shagged them?  If they did not arouse you then, what did Neech say led to the exception to the rule, physical antipathy I believe it is.
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« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2013, 09:15:39 AM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever. Spat out by Christians and the like to sounds wise but never really answers what could be a good mate. (i.e. heard that one 40 times and followed it since 6 years before I had an opportunity to have a first date.)

I don't know much about dating since I only ever dated one person and that was my now wife.  The only thing I can say is focus on making friendships and getting to know people of the opposite sex. The most healthy marriages that I have ever seen came from the two people having a close friendship that developed into something more.  If that is the approach you take, Kerdy's point makes sense. Otherwise, if you just randomly go on dates with the intention of marrying the person, you are going to make yourself neurotic.

Heterosexuals of the opposite sex don't have close friendships outside of a romantic framework, unless there is, what did Neech say led to the exception to the rule, physical antipathy I believe it is.


I would have loved to disagree with him on this. I would be lying. no matter how sanitized one tries to make such friendships if they are really close that element creeps in and things get complicated. making purely platonic a false claim. situation acknowledged and managed ? yeah, but purely platonic? no.  it took me years to concede to this fact.
Huh?  I have numerous female friends that I have never considered to be even remotely romantic. My wife has several male friends that she is not interested in from a romantic context. Before I was married, I had a lot of female friends that I didn't consider as potential mates.

But would you have shagged them?  If they did not arouse you then, what did Neech say led to the exception to the rule, physical antipathy I believe it is.

I have multiple female friends who are very attractive and I would not "shag" any of them.  I value the friendship more the desires of the flesh.  Friendships can last a lifetime.  Why destory the possibilities?

Besides, why worry what someone thought after they proclaimed the death of God? 
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 09:19:12 AM by Kerdy » Logged
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« Reply #58 on: July 02, 2013, 09:21:24 AM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever. Spat out by Christians and the like to sounds wise but never really answers what could be a good mate. (i.e. heard that one 40 times and followed it since 6 years before I had an opportunity to have a first date.)

I don't know much about dating since I only ever dated one person and that was my now wife.  The only thing I can say is focus on making friendships and getting to know people of the opposite sex. The most healthy marriages that I have ever seen came from the two people having a close friendship that developed into something more.  If that is the approach you take, Kerdy's point makes sense. Otherwise, if you just randomly go on dates with the intention of marrying the person, you are going to make yourself neurotic.

Heterosexuals of the opposite sex don't have close friendships outside of a romantic framework, unless there is, what did Neech say led to the exception to the rule, physical antipathy I believe it is.


I would have loved to disagree with him on this. I would be lying. no matter how sanitized one tries to make such friendships if they are really close that element creeps in and things get complicated. making purely platonic a false claim. situation acknowledged and managed ? yeah, but purely platonic? no.  it took me years to concede to this fact.
Huh?  I have numerous female friends that I have never considered to be even remotely romantic. My wife has several male friends that she is not interested in from a romantic context. Before I was married, I had a lot of female friends that I didn't consider as potential mates.

But would you have shagged them?  If they did not arouse you then, what did Neech say led to the exception to the rule, physical antipathy I believe it is.

I have multiple female friends who are very attractive and I would not "shag" any of them.  I value the friendship more the desires of the flesh.  Friendships can last a lifetime.  Why destory the possibilities?

Besides, why worry what someone thought after they proclaimed the death of God? 

Were these attractive goils before or after you were married?
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« Reply #59 on: July 02, 2013, 09:22:38 AM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever. Spat out by Christians and the like to sounds wise but never really answers what could be a good mate. (i.e. heard that one 40 times and followed it since 6 years before I had an opportunity to have a first date.)

I don't know much about dating since I only ever dated one person and that was my now wife.  The only thing I can say is focus on making friendships and getting to know people of the opposite sex. The most healthy marriages that I have ever seen came from the two people having a close friendship that developed into something more.  If that is the approach you take, Kerdy's point makes sense. Otherwise, if you just randomly go on dates with the intention of marrying the person, you are going to make yourself neurotic.

Heterosexuals of the opposite sex don't have close friendships outside of a romantic framework, unless there is, what did Neech say led to the exception to the rule, physical antipathy I believe it is.


I would have loved to disagree with him on this. I would be lying. no matter how sanitized one tries to make such friendships if they are really close that element creeps in and things get complicated. making purely platonic a false claim. situation acknowledged and managed ? yeah, but purely platonic? no.  it took me years to concede to this fact.
Huh?  I have numerous female friends that I have never considered to be even remotely romantic. My wife has several male friends that she is not interested in from a romantic context. Before I was married, I had a lot of female friends that I didn't consider as potential mates.

But would you have shagged them?  If they did not arouse you then, what did Neech say led to the exception to the rule, physical antipathy I believe it is.

I have multiple female friends who are very attractive and I would not "shag" any of them.  I value the friendship more the desires of the flesh.  Friendships can last a lifetime.  Why destory the possibilities?

Besides, why worry what someone thought after they proclaimed the death of God? 

Were these attractive goils before or after you were married?

Both.  Again, who cares what a man thinks after he has denied the existance of God?  Not me.
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« Reply #60 on: July 02, 2013, 09:24:06 AM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever. Spat out by Christians and the like to sounds wise but never really answers what could be a good mate. (i.e. heard that one 40 times and followed it since 6 years before I had an opportunity to have a first date.)

I don't know much about dating since I only ever dated one person and that was my now wife.  The only thing I can say is focus on making friendships and getting to know people of the opposite sex. The most healthy marriages that I have ever seen came from the two people having a close friendship that developed into something more.  If that is the approach you take, Kerdy's point makes sense. Otherwise, if you just randomly go on dates with the intention of marrying the person, you are going to make yourself neurotic.

Heterosexuals of the opposite sex don't have close friendships outside of a romantic framework, unless there is, what did Neech say led to the exception to the rule, physical antipathy I believe it is.


I would have loved to disagree with him on this. I would be lying. no matter how sanitized one tries to make such friendships if they are really close that element creeps in and things get complicated. making purely platonic a false claim. situation acknowledged and managed ? yeah, but purely platonic? no.  it took me years to concede to this fact.
Huh?  I have numerous female friends that I have never considered to be even remotely romantic. My wife has several male friends that she is not interested in from a romantic context. Before I was married, I had a lot of female friends that I didn't consider as potential mates.

But would you have shagged them?  If they did not arouse you then, what did Neech say led to the exception to the rule, physical antipathy I believe it is.
No, I had no desire to shag them, but that doesn't mean I found them revolting or distasteful on some level. If you think about it, Nietzsche's quote is kind of dumb. You could say the same thing about male friendship or any relationship really.  

"In order for my relationship to continue with my cat without it becoming romantic, it has to have a degree of physical antipathy."

Is it really just some underlying sense of revulsion that keeps my relationship with female friends, male friends, animals on a platonic level? I would like to think that humans have been given a level of control by God that enables us to form relational connections without feeling the need to bang it.  Of course, Nietzsche did consider that restraining factor, so perhaps he was open to explore his more animalistic urges...
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« Reply #61 on: July 02, 2013, 10:06:55 AM »

T&K,

If Nietzsche said that the sky was blue on a sunny say I would find it hard to disagree with him.

Physical antipathy doesn't mean revulsion, per se, it is just a lack of sexual desire.  It is probably easy for you to maintain a platonic relationship with your cat.  Imagine screwing it for a second.  Do you feel revolted now?  There are plenty of people out there that I love but the thought of having sex with them is revolting.  If you are married and you deeply love your wife the thought of having sex with another woman, any woman from Janet Reno to Angelina Jolie, might cause a visceral reaction for you.

But any relationship between two people who are sexually attracted to one another will never be truly platonic.  That is why I say that a guy being stuck in the friendzone is only a temporary arrangement.  If the guy is unable to secure her attraction he will likely find a replacement, and I think the relationship between the two will last about 20 seconds give or take after finding the replacement.

Also, people overuse the word 'friend'.  Some of these friends of yours are more likely acquaintances.  It is easy to maintain an acquaintanceship with someone of the opposite sex that you would theoretically mount but would probably never act on the urge (or even give it much thought).   
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« Reply #62 on: July 02, 2013, 10:20:23 AM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever. Spat out by Christians and the like to sounds wise but never really answers what could be a good mate. (i.e. heard that one 40 times and followed it since 6 years before I had an opportunity to have a first date.)

I don't know much about dating since I only ever dated one person and that was my now wife.  The only thing I can say is focus on making friendships and getting to know people of the opposite sex. The most healthy marriages that I have ever seen came from the two people having a close friendship that developed into something more.  If that is the approach you take, Kerdy's point makes sense. Otherwise, if you just randomly go on dates with the intention of marrying the person, you are going to make yourself neurotic.

Heterosexuals of the opposite sex don't have close friendships outside of a romantic framework, unless there is, what did Neech say led to the exception to the rule, physical antipathy I believe it is.


I would have loved to disagree with him on this. I would be lying. no matter how sanitized one tries to make such friendships if they are really close that element creeps in and things get complicated. making purely platonic a false claim. situation acknowledged and managed ? yeah, but purely platonic? no.  it took me years to concede to this fact.
Huh?  I have numerous female friends that I have never considered to be even remotely romantic. My wife has several male friends that she is not interested in from a romantic context. Before I was married, I had a lot of female friends that I didn't consider as potential mates.

we can agree to disagree on this Trisagion. I will not go into discussing the particulars of such experience but the friendship I was talking about was not your average part of the gang, you are my buddy we hang out with the occasional shared life situation between us. no that is not the closeness I had in mind. the friendship I was talking about is , the kind where I know your darkest secrets, your deepest flaws, your dreams and hopes, the kind where it is me and you against the world in this century we live in. the kind where I know what you are thinking about a situation without you having to explain yourself every single time. the kind where I trust you to be completely utterly human and know you will love me any way, the kind where you will tick me off and I will tick you off but we make each other lough and inspired also. in that kind of closeness especially between single and available men and women.. the romantic element naturally manifests if not from both side at least from one and that complicates things even if they are not acted upon.IMO unrequited romantic love finds its best thriving ground in such type of friendships.

like I said we can agree to disagree on this. and also there are always exceptions if not necessarily strictly due to what the philosopher said but for whatever reason it may be exceptions exist. if you are one of those who had such kind of special friendship and both of you are the exceptions then I am happy for you.



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« Reply #63 on: July 02, 2013, 10:23:34 AM »

Here is the Nietzsche quote:
"A woman may very well form a friendship with a man, but for this to endure, it must be assisted by a little physical antipathy."

I agree with you that I can maintain a friendship with a woman as long as there is no sexual desire, but that is not what Nietzsche is saying. Obviously, if I started having sexual desires towards my female friends, I would need to take a step away from those friendships as I am a married man. Nietzsche is saying, however, that there has to be some level of physical revulsion towards that person in order for the friendship to be maintained which I do not agree with. In other words, men can only be friends with ugly women.  Pretty women cannot have platonic male friends unless the man is gay.

an·tip·a·thy  
/anˈtipəTHē/Noun
A deep-seated feeling of dislike; aversion.
 
 
Synonyms
aversion - dislike - repugnance - distaste - repulsion
 
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« Reply #64 on: July 02, 2013, 10:29:17 AM »

He might have been using a bit of exaggeration to make a point.
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« Reply #65 on: July 02, 2013, 10:32:12 AM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever. Spat out by Christians and the like to sounds wise but never really answers what could be a good mate. (i.e. heard that one 40 times and followed it since 6 years before I had an opportunity to have a first date.)

I don't know much about dating since I only ever dated one person and that was my now wife.  The only thing I can say is focus on making friendships and getting to know people of the opposite sex. The most healthy marriages that I have ever seen came from the two people having a close friendship that developed into something more.  If that is the approach you take, Kerdy's point makes sense. Otherwise, if you just randomly go on dates with the intention of marrying the person, you are going to make yourself neurotic.

Heterosexuals of the opposite sex don't have close friendships outside of a romantic framework, unless there is, what did Neech say led to the exception to the rule, physical antipathy I believe it is.


I would have loved to disagree with him on this. I would be lying. no matter how sanitized one tries to make such friendships if they are really close that element creeps in and things get complicated. making purely platonic a false claim. situation acknowledged and managed ? yeah, but purely platonic? no.  it took me years to concede to this fact.
Huh?  I have numerous female friends that I have never considered to be even remotely romantic. My wife has several male friends that she is not interested in from a romantic context. Before I was married, I had a lot of female friends that I didn't consider as potential mates.

we can agree to disagree on this Trisagion. I will not go into discussing the particulars of such experience but the friendship I was talking about was not your average part of the gang, you are my buddy we hang out with the occasional shared life situation between us. no that is not the closeness I had in mind. the friendship I was talking about is , the kind where I know your darkest secrets, your deepest flaws, your dreams and hopes, the kind where it is me and you against the world in this century we live in. the kind where I know what you are thinking about a situation without you having to explain yourself every single time. the kind where I trust you to be completely utterly human and know you will love me any way, the kind where you will piss me off and I will piss you off but we make each other lough and inspired also. in that kind of closeness especially between single and available men and women.. the romantic element naturally manifests if not from both side at least from one and that complicates things even if they are not acted upon.IMO unrequited romantic love finds its best thriving ground in such type of friendships.

like I said we can agree to disagree on this. and also there are always exceptions if not necessarily strictly due to what the philosopher said but for whatever reason it may be exceptions exist. if you are one of those who had such kind of special friendship and both of you are the exceptions then I am happy for you.
I suppose the perspective that I come from would be female friends that were also friends of my now-wife.  Several of them I was very close to and I would talk about my frustrations regarding my now-wife's rebuffing of my overtures towards her (which is a whole other story Tongue). I did not find them to be unattractive, but there was someone else (my wife) that I was attracted to and that superceded any thoughts that I would possibly have of dating them. I was/am also very good friends with my college friend's girlfriend and we continue to be close friends to this day.  I have never considered the prospect of any romantic involvement with her, but I would have no problems having very personal conversations with her. In my mind, it is all just a matter of making sure you know what is and what is not permissible and not entertaining thoughts that could compromise that.
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« Reply #66 on: July 02, 2013, 10:44:00 AM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever. Spat out by Christians and the like to sounds wise but never really answers what could be a good mate. (i.e. heard that one 40 times and followed it since 6 years before I had an opportunity to have a first date.)

I don't know much about dating since I only ever dated one person and that was my now wife.  The only thing I can say is focus on making friendships and getting to know people of the opposite sex. The most healthy marriages that I have ever seen came from the two people having a close friendship that developed into something more.  If that is the approach you take, Kerdy's point makes sense. Otherwise, if you just randomly go on dates with the intention of marrying the person, you are going to make yourself neurotic.

Heterosexuals of the opposite sex don't have close friendships outside of a romantic framework, unless there is, what did Neech say led to the exception to the rule, physical antipathy I believe it is.


I would have loved to disagree with him on this. I would be lying. no matter how sanitized one tries to make such friendships if they are really close that element creeps in and things get complicated. making purely platonic a false claim. situation acknowledged and managed ? yeah, but purely platonic? no.  it took me years to concede to this fact.
Huh?  I have numerous female friends that I have never considered to be even remotely romantic. My wife has several male friends that she is not interested in from a romantic context. Before I was married, I had a lot of female friends that I didn't consider as potential mates.

we can agree to disagree on this Trisagion. I will not go into discussing the particulars of such experience but the friendship I was talking about was not your average part of the gang, you are my buddy we hang out with the occasional shared life situation between us. no that is not the closeness I had in mind. the friendship I was talking about is , the kind where I know your darkest secrets, your deepest flaws, your dreams and hopes, the kind where it is me and you against the world in this century we live in. the kind where I know what you are thinking about a situation without you having to explain yourself every single time. the kind where I trust you to be completely utterly human and know you will love me any way, the kind where you will piss me off and I will piss you off but we make each other lough and inspired also. in that kind of closeness especially between single and available men and women.. the romantic element naturally manifests if not from both side at least from one and that complicates things even if they are not acted upon.IMO unrequited romantic love finds its best thriving ground in such type of friendships.

like I said we can agree to disagree on this. and also there are always exceptions if not necessarily strictly due to what the philosopher said but for whatever reason it may be exceptions exist. if you are one of those who had such kind of special friendship and both of you are the exceptions then I am happy for you.
I suppose the perspective that I come from would be female friends that were also friends of my now-wife.  Several of them I was very close to and I would talk about my frustrations regarding my now-wife's rebuffing of my overtures towards her (which is a whole other story Tongue). I did not find them to be unattractive, but there was someone else (my wife) that I was attracted to and that superceded any thoughts that I would possibly have of dating them. I was/am also very good friends with my college friend's girlfriend and we continue to be close friends to this day.  I have never considered the prospect of any romantic involvement with her, but I would have no problems having very personal conversations with her. In my mind, it is all just a matter of making sure you know what is and what is not permissible and not entertaining thoughts that could compromise that.

when you say you did not find them unattractive, you might be describing in a generic sense, but we are talking about a situation where there is a potential to be actively romantically attracted to someone you already love and trust on a different level. besides it does not necessarily mean both will feel the attraction, one might and the other will not, still that element of romantic attraction thrives in such a situation because of the conducive environment it finds itself to manifest.

 
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« Reply #67 on: July 02, 2013, 11:57:15 AM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever.

Then do as you like/want, stop asking for others advice, and live with the penalties.  If you want the easy way rather than the correct way, you can do that all by yourself without the influence of others.
Is that what you think, that the way you present here is always the correct way?
Doesn't everyone?
No, but you seem to.
Sure they do.  I read it here everyday.
Yes, I've found that the forum is an excellent mirror of whatever you bring to it. Wink Do note, though, that I didn't ask you to share your thoughts on others' posting styles. I asked you about yours.
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« Reply #68 on: July 02, 2013, 12:05:43 PM »

I wouldn't advise anyone you don't know well and also, don't date someone you already know to want a different lifestyle. Marriage is more than living together, it's sharing a life. Noone can share a life with a person who has a different understanding of what life is. You may be next to the person and doing things in a harmonic way, but won't really be together.

The solution, then, is: get to know the guy with similar lifestyle better. Maybe, getting to know him closely will show that it's not as similar as it looked from afar, maybe you'll find out his the one.

Also, don't look at just lifestyle. People with certain vices may reinforce them in each other. What we must seek is someone who will share a life of mutual character and spiritual growth, along with the more prosaic aspects of attraction, fun, similar interests and so on, which are all important and necessary but secondary.

Is it better to date the guy who you are good friends with but wants a little more different life than you do or the guy you don't know well but who has similar life-style/life-style aspirations to what you want?
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« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2013, 01:54:31 PM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever. Spat out by Christians and the like to sounds wise but never really answers what could be a good mate. (i.e. heard that one 40 times and followed it since 6 years before I had an opportunity to have a first date.)

I don't know much about dating since I only ever dated one person and that was my now wife.  The only thing I can say is focus on making friendships and getting to know people of the opposite sex. The most healthy marriages that I have ever seen came from the two people having a close friendship that developed into something more.  If that is the approach you take, Kerdy's point makes sense. Otherwise, if you just randomly go on dates with the intention of marrying the person, you are going to make yourself neurotic.

Heterosexuals of the opposite sex don't have close friendships outside of a romantic framework, unless there is, what did Neech say led to the exception to the rule, physical antipathy I believe it is.


I would have loved to disagree with him on this. I would be lying. no matter how sanitized one tries to make such friendships if they are really close that element creeps in and things get complicated. making purely platonic a false claim. situation acknowledged and managed ? yeah, but purely platonic? no.  it took me years to concede to this fact.
Huh?  I have numerous female friends that I have never considered to be even remotely romantic. My wife has several male friends that she is not interested in from a romantic context. Before I was married, I had a lot of female friends that I didn't consider as potential mates.

But would you have shagged them?  If they did not arouse you then, what did Neech say led to the exception to the rule, physical antipathy I believe it is.

I have multiple female friends who are very attractive and I would not "shag" any of them.  I value the friendship more the desires of the flesh.  Friendships can last a lifetime.  Why destory the possibilities?

Besides, why worry what someone thought after they proclaimed the death of God?  

You are assuming you know what friendship is.

The most persons someone can have as a friend is about three, if you are single.

Two maybe, if you married other than your spouse.

Good luck having any if you are being a parent.

All of the above assume having to spend the majority of your time working (wage slavery kills most of the wonderful things in life, hence the negative view of it by those who offered us the first notions of friendship). I would strongly suggest reading classical literature on friendship. I knew I was fighting a battle before anyone thought of facebook against the American notions of friendship.

Post facebook, forget about it.

If you would like to argue, I will if I find the time during my limited access here. I won't offer a proper definition but I will pose situations which friendship must include or allow the possiblity for having, then you tell me if you can engage in those behaviors or could with your "female friends".

Most Americans here are talking about close acquaintances or former friends removed by circumstance, time, or place.
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« Reply #70 on: July 02, 2013, 02:02:17 PM »

He might have been using a bit of exaggeration to make a point.

Not only have we lost the art of writing an aphorism, but reading one as well.
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« Reply #71 on: July 02, 2013, 02:07:29 PM »

the friendship I was talking about is , the kind where I know your darkest secrets, your deepest flaws, your dreams and hopes, the kind where it is me and you against the world in this century we live in. the kind where I know what you are thinking about a situation without you having to explain yourself every single time. the kind where I trust you to be completely utterly human and know you will love me any way, the kind where you will tick me off and I will tick you off but we make each other lough and inspired also. in that kind of closeness especially between single and available men and women.. the romantic element naturally manifests if not from both side at least from one and that complicates things even if they are not acted upon.IMO unrequited romantic love finds its best thriving ground in such type of friendships.

Here you go, I don't have to do any work. Hiwot and I are pretty much on the same page.

Have I had such relations with women? Yes. I would say I am even more capable of do so than most men, the wy wherefores of that capacity belong within the confines of the therapists office. However, no matter how explicit nor upfront I've been about my intentions and how I understand friendship . . .

It.
Has.
Never.
Worked.

Never.

Much to my grave disappointment. As the pain from the loss of a friend stings greater than any other loss I can image, save perhaps that of one's child. The latter being a loss I've been spared.
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« Reply #72 on: July 02, 2013, 02:22:32 PM »

Quote
I trust you to be completely utterly human and know you will love me any way,

That is what makes it never work. God, who is our model of love does *not* love us in that way. He sees our flaws and He desires these flaws end. He hates them in fact, although He loves us.

I know where you guys are coming from, because I felt that need as well, and that never worked as well. And it doesn't work because it simply is not love. It is beeing needy and with low self-steem, to accept that other people abuse us with their sins just so we can have permission to abuse them with ours.

True love understands that we will not be perfect but is not lenient with our limitations nor finds them "cute" or "charming" or "humane". If it's a sin, it's gotta go, to the best of our strength. We have to love growing and to see the beloved grow as well.
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« Reply #73 on: July 02, 2013, 02:36:04 PM »

Romantic love falls in the second part of "Love God above everything else, and your neighbor like yourself", since the espouse is one of the kinds of neighbor.

That means that we have to love God *more* than the romantic interest and that we will love the romantic interest only if we know what loving ourselves is.

And to learn what loving ourselves is, we have to understand how is it that God loves. It's not unconditional, it's not something that allows the other part to act in whichever way he/she is. God accept us as we are as a first step (He loved us even when we hated Him). Then He demands repenting, and then at least struggle against our limitations and sins so we get as close as possible to purity.

There is no real love of ourselves in the comfort zone. Love is struggle to become better, hate toward what puts us away from that. If we love ourselves like that, then we can love our neighbor (among whom our wife/husband) like ourselves: the person will not demand that we accept vices and sins and limitations as "just how I am". And we will not do that to the person. We will not cultivate and support each other limitations and vices under the excuse that "I love you just they way you are, I don't want you to change". On the contrary, love wants change passionately, just like God wants to turn to Him with fiery love. Real love is never unconditional.
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« Reply #74 on: July 02, 2013, 07:45:06 PM »

Romantic love falls in the second part of "Love God above everything else, and your neighbor like yourself", since the espouse is one of the kinds of neighbor.
Actually, the second commandment is "love your neighbor AS yourself." NOT "love your neighbor as you love yourself" or "love your neighbor like yourself". This difference in how you quote the commandment and how it's actually written is a very important distinction. You are not to love your neighbor because you love yourself. You are not taught that you must love yourself first so you can know how to love your neighbor. Rather, the Gospel teaches you that you are to love your neighbor because your neighbor IS yourself.
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« Reply #75 on: July 02, 2013, 08:32:59 PM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever.

Then do as you like/want, stop asking for others advice, and live with the penalties.  If you want the easy way rather than the correct way, you can do that all by yourself without the influence of others.
Is that what you think, that the way you present here is always the correct way?
Doesn't everyone?
No, but you seem to.
Sure they do.  I read it here everyday.
Yes, I've found that the forum is an excellent mirror of whatever you bring to it. Wink Do note, though, that I didn't ask you to share your thoughts on others' posting styles. I asked you about yours.
To which I answered.  If your mirror comment was a sort of attempt to suggest I explore myself, rest assured I do, probably more than most.
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« Reply #76 on: July 02, 2013, 08:55:38 PM »

Quote
I trust you to be completely utterly human and know you will love me any way,

That is what makes it never work. God, who is our model of love does *not* love us in that way. He sees our flaws and He desires these flaws end. He hates them in fact, although He loves us.

I know where you guys are coming from, because I felt that need as well, and that never worked as well. And it doesn't work because it simply is not love. It is beeing needy and with low self-steem, to accept that other people abuse us with their sins just so we can have permission to abuse them with ours.

True love understands that we will not be perfect but is not lenient with our limitations nor finds them "cute" or "charming" or "humane". If it's a sin, it's gotta go, to the best of our strength. We have to love growing and to see the beloved grow as well.

Fabio, I dont know how you read sin into being human or how that is described as a codependent relationship encouraging a a downright cycle of abuse and complacency. but in case you went by the common saying of people when they describe what sometimes is a sin as being human then all that explains your explanation although even in your explanation there is the truth that God loves the person even if that person is flawed and God desires that flaw to be healed.i am a sinner it is a fact,the one i will call a friend would love me the person regardless of the state of brokenness i find myself. that does not necessarily mean my friend thinks my sins are cute or humane, it simply means my friend loves me.even if my friend hates my sins and desires for me to abandon them because they will harm me.my perfection is not the condition for my friend's love for me. furthermore let me point out what i had in mind when i said utterly human in addition to what i have said already.

there are friendships that are only about having fun, putting up a front that you got it all figured out, that you do not go through times of emotional, physical,psychological or economic trials. i lose someone who means the world to me i go into a deep sadness and behave like the world has come to an end, would you be my friend then and with your love guide me into the light and sooth my pain? i loose my health and strength  that would also make me loose my dignity would you be there as my friend. my dreams are foiled and i feel lost and in pain, and in that pain i am not as nice as i used to be would you have the strength to love me then? can you be the one who i do not have to hide my wounds from?.....

living life in this fallen world is not easy, love accepts the person,corrects what can be corrected,strengthens the weakened, inspires and elevates into the sublime. only love can do such things because love is the only one that braves the fires of hell to rescue and embrace in its light, the person trapped in them.
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« Reply #77 on: July 02, 2013, 09:58:03 PM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever.

Then do as you like/want, stop asking for others advice, and live with the penalties.  If you want the easy way rather than the correct way, you can do that all by yourself without the influence of others.
Is that what you think, that the way you present here is always the correct way?
Doesn't everyone?
No, but you seem to.
Sure they do.  I read it here everyday.
Yes, I've found that the forum is an excellent mirror of whatever you bring to it. Wink Do note, though, that I didn't ask you to share your thoughts on others' posting styles. I asked you about yours.
To which I answered.
No, you just told me about why other people post here.

If your mirror comment was a sort of attempt to suggest I explore myself, rest assured I do, probably more than most.
Getting boastful now, are we?
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« Reply #78 on: July 02, 2013, 10:10:25 PM »

I think we need more punctuation there. Not trying to be mean or anything, it just really made it more difficult to read.

To address this, I have to go back to the discussion above about loving yourself. There lies the whole problem. I was retranslating from Portuguese, where the same preposition "como" is used for the prepositions "like" and "as". I don't know what the Greek original is.

But, even if it is the exact same meaning in "as yourself", I think it is forcing a strict distinction that is pointless here. To love the other you still have to know "yourself" and you don't really know something you don't love. I see a very clear distinction between selfishness and egotism and a person loving him/herself. The first is idolatry. But if you don't know who you are - and again, knowing requires love first - if you don't understand what being a person is in the very specific and concrete context of you, I doubt you will be able to know or love anyone. I always doubt "spiritual" people who show a lack of self-knowledge, of perception of who they are, their place in society and their impact on other people.

An analogy is very clarifying here. It is well established that the person who chooses a monastic life out of despise for marriage is in sin - not unlike those who live married and despise monastic life. The sacrifice the monk does only has value if he understands the high value of what he is sacrificing, just like married people should understand what it is that they are missing by not having a monastic life.

We are called to sacrifice our lives for love of God. Just like in the situation above, it only has value if we understand the value of that which we are sacrificing, something that you...love. Love is not possessive, so real love of oneself is not possessive, egotistical. You don't want to be the master of yourself because in your love for you, you understand that God's sovereignity is what is best for you. If you don't understand that you need a hug sometimes, or kind words, and if you never desired this to yourself out of love, how will you understand that this must be given to those who need it? That's the difference between throwing some coins in a tin and going to the supermarket and buying not only a bread and some water, but some cookies, some hygene items, maybe ham and sausages. If you never wanted it for yourself you'll hardly notice that those in need also want it. Compassion is not only feelling the pain of others, but also feelling the love that God has for you.

Quote
I trust you to be completely utterly human and know you will love me any way,

That is what makes it never work. God, who is our model of love does *not* love us in that way. He sees our flaws and He desires these flaws end. He hates them in fact, although He loves us.

I know where you guys are coming from, because I felt that need as well, and that never worked as well. And it doesn't work because it simply is not love. It is beeing needy and with low self-steem, to accept that other people abuse us with their sins just so we can have permission to abuse them with ours.

True love understands that we will not be perfect but is not lenient with our limitations nor finds them "cute" or "charming" or "humane". If it's a sin, it's gotta go, to the best of our strength. We have to love growing and to see the beloved grow as well.

Fabio, I dont know how you read sin into being human or how that is described as a codependent relationship encouraging a a downright cycle of abuse and complacency. but in case you went by the common saying of people when they describe what sometimes is a sin as being human then all that explains your explanation although even in your explanation there is the truth that God loves the person even if that person is flawed and God desires that flaw to be healed.i am a sinner it is a fact,the one i will call a friend would love me the person regardless of the state of brokenness i find myself. that does not necessarily mean my friend thinks my sins are cute or humane, it simply means my friend loves me.even if my friend hates my sins and desires for me to abandon them because they will harm me.my perfection is not the condition for my friend's love for me. furthermore let me point out what i had in mind when i said utterly human in addition to what i have said already.

there are friendships that are only about having fun, putting up a front that you got it all figured out, that you do not go through times of emotional, physical,psychological or economic trials. i lose someone who means the world to me i go into a deep sadness and behave like the world has come to an end, would you be my friend then and with your love guide me into the light and sooth my pain? i loose my health and strength  that would also make me loose my dignity would you be there as my friend. my dreams are foiled and i feel lost and in pain, and in that pain i am not as nice as i used to be would you have the strength to love me then? can you be the one who i do not have to hide my wounds from?.....

living life in this fallen world is not easy, love accepts the person,corrects what can be corrected,strengthens the weakened, inspires and elevates into the sublime. only love can do such things because love is the only one that braves the fires of hell to rescue and embrace in its light, the person trapped in them.
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« Reply #79 on: July 03, 2013, 12:33:11 AM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever.

Then do as you like/want, stop asking for others advice, and live with the penalties.  If you want the easy way rather than the correct way, you can do that all by yourself without the influence of others.
Is that what you think, that the way you present here is always the correct way?
Doesn't everyone?
No, but you seem to.
Sure they do.  I read it here everyday.
Yes, I've found that the forum is an excellent mirror of whatever you bring to it. Wink Do note, though, that I didn't ask you to share your thoughts on others' posting styles. I asked you about yours.
To which I answered.
No, you just told me about why other people post here.

If your mirror comment was a sort of attempt to suggest I explore myself, rest assured I do, probably more than most.
Getting boastful now, are we?

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #80 on: July 03, 2013, 09:51:44 AM »

I think we need more punctuation there. Not trying to be mean or anything, it just really made it more difficult to read.

To address this, I have to go back to the discussion above about loving yourself. There lies the whole problem. I was retranslating from Portuguese, where the same preposition "como" is used for the prepositions "like" and "as". I don't know what the Greek original is.

But, even if it is the exact same meaning in "as yourself", I think it is forcing a strict distinction that is pointless here. To love the other you still have to know "yourself" and you don't really know something you don't love. I see a very clear distinction between selfishness and egotism and a person loving him/herself. The first is idolatry. But if you don't know who you are - and again, knowing requires love first - if you don't understand what being a person is in the very specific and concrete context of you, I doubt you will be able to know or love anyone. I always doubt "spiritual" people who show a lack of self-knowledge, of perception of who they are, their place in society and their impact on other people.

An analogy is very clarifying here. It is well established that the person who chooses a monastic life out of despise for marriage is in sin - not unlike those who live married and despise monastic life. The sacrifice the monk does only has value if he understands the high value of what he is sacrificing, just like married people should understand what it is that they are missing by not having a monastic life.

We are called to sacrifice our lives for love of God. Just like in the situation above, it only has value if we understand the value of that which we are sacrificing, something that you...love. Love is not possessive, so real love of oneself is not possessive, egotistical. You don't want to be the master of yourself because in your love for you, you understand that God's sovereignity is what is best for you. If you don't understand that you need a hug sometimes, or kind words, and if you never desired this to yourself out of love, how will you understand that this must be given to those who need it? That's the difference between throwing some coins in a tin and going to the supermarket and buying not only a bread and some water, but some cookies, some hygene items, maybe ham and sausages. If you never wanted it for yourself you'll hardly notice that those in need also want it. Compassion is not only feelling the pain of others, but also feelling the love that God has for you.

Quote
I trust you to be completely utterly human and know you will love me any way,

That is what makes it never work. God, who is our model of love does *not* love us in that way. He sees our flaws and He desires these flaws end. He hates them in fact, although He loves us.

I know where you guys are coming from, because I felt that need as well, and that never worked as well. And it doesn't work because it simply is not love. It is beeing needy and with low self-steem, to accept that other people abuse us with their sins just so we can have permission to abuse them with ours.

True love understands that we will not be perfect but is not lenient with our limitations nor finds them "cute" or "charming" or "humane". If it's a sin, it's gotta go, to the best of our strength. We have to love growing and to see the beloved grow as well.

Fabio, I dont know how you read sin into being human or how that is described as a codependent relationship encouraging a a downright cycle of abuse and complacency. but in case you went by the common saying of people when they describe what sometimes is a sin as being human then all that explains your explanation although even in your explanation there is the truth that God loves the person even if that person is flawed and God desires that flaw to be healed.i am a sinner it is a fact,the one i will call a friend would love me the person regardless of the state of brokenness i find myself. that does not necessarily mean my friend thinks my sins are cute or humane, it simply means my friend loves me.even if my friend hates my sins and desires for me to abandon them because they will harm me.my perfection is not the condition for my friend's love for me. furthermore let me point out what i had in mind when i said utterly human in addition to what i have said already.

there are friendships that are only about having fun, putting up a front that you got it all figured out, that you do not go through times of emotional, physical,psychological or economic trials. i lose someone who means the world to me i go into a deep sadness and behave like the world has come to an end, would you be my friend then and with your love guide me into the light and sooth my pain? i loose my health and strength  that would also make me loose my dignity would you be there as my friend. my dreams are foiled and i feel lost and in pain, and in that pain i am not as nice as i used to be would you have the strength to love me then? can you be the one who i do not have to hide my wounds from?.....

living life in this fallen world is not easy, love accepts the person,corrects what can be corrected,strengthens the weakened, inspires and elevates into the sublime. only love can do such things because love is the only one that braves the fires of hell to rescue and embrace in its light, the person trapped in them.


Fabio, I am sorry for the way I wrote, I was in quite a hurry, but even if I was not in a hurry, my punctuation skills are very little to none. and let us not mention the rest of my grammatical , vocabulary, syntax blunders. i can only imagine the pain some of you must be experiencing reading my posts. i sincerely apologize, I will try to be coherent the best I can , which isn't much i know but that's all I have.

Fabio I read what you wrote more than twice, and I think it is the result of my bad writing skills that lead to your difficulty of reading my post because I found no specific correlation between the point I was making in my post and your reply.Therefore, I will leave that post alone.

So instead I read the discussion about loving yourself. In that post Peter makes a very crucial point, you argue it is forcing a distinction when there is none. but that is not true because there is a clear fundamental distinction, read what he wrote again and reflect. if we are talking about Divine Love, and its manifestation in us.. then Loving our neighbor as ourselves holds in it the kind of love God has for us. Our Lord when he comes back in Glory, he will say...I was hungry, I was thirsty, I was sick.... thus the Commandment given says love your neighbor as yourself because your neighbor IS yourself. the giver of the Law, Christ Loves like that. He identifies himself  even with the least among us.

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« Reply #81 on: July 03, 2013, 11:01:58 AM »



Fabio, I am sorry for the way I wrote, I was in quite a hurry, but even if I was not in a hurry, my punctuation skills are very little to none. and let us not mention the rest of my grammatical , vocabulary, syntax blunders. i can only imagine the pain some of you must be experiencing reading my posts. i sincerely apologize, I will try to be coherent the best I can , which isn't much i know but that's all I have.

Fabio I read what you wrote more than twice, and I think it is the result of my bad writing skills that lead to your difficulty of reading my post because I found no specific correlation between the point I was making in my post and your reply.Therefore, I will leave that post alone.

So instead I read the discussion about loving yourself. In that post Peter makes a very crucial point, you argue it is forcing a distinction when there is none. but that is not true because there is a clear fundamental distinction, read what he wrote again and reflect. if we are talking about Divine Love, and its manifestation in us.. then Loving our neighbor as ourselves holds in it the kind of love God has for us. Our Lord when he comes back in Glory, he will say...I was hungry, I was thirsty, I was sick.... thus the Commandment given says love your neighbor as yourself because your neighbor IS yourself. the giver of the Law, Christ Loves like that. He identifies himself  even with the least among us.



English isn't your first language.  You write better than many Americans I know, and you have an excuse for any errors.  I think Fabio should be able to understand this as it is not his first language either, or at least I thought it wasn't.  Then again, that may be some of the disagreement between you as you are translating it in your head from Amharic (?) into English which he then translates into Portuguese when he reads it!

Keep writing.  I always find it worthwhile reading it.
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« Reply #82 on: July 03, 2013, 11:54:46 AM »



Fabio, I am sorry for the way I wrote, I was in quite a hurry, but even if I was not in a hurry, my punctuation skills are very little to none. and let us not mention the rest of my grammatical , vocabulary, syntax blunders. i can only imagine the pain some of you must be experiencing reading my posts. i sincerely apologize, I will try to be coherent the best I can , which isn't much i know but that's all I have.

Fabio I read what you wrote more than twice, and I think it is the result of my bad writing skills that lead to your difficulty of reading my post because I found no specific correlation between the point I was making in my post and your reply.Therefore, I will leave that post alone.

So instead I read the discussion about loving yourself. In that post Peter makes a very crucial point, you argue it is forcing a distinction when there is none. but that is not true because there is a clear fundamental distinction, read what he wrote again and reflect. if we are talking about Divine Love, and its manifestation in us.. then Loving our neighbor as ourselves holds in it the kind of love God has for us. Our Lord when he comes back in Glory, he will say...I was hungry, I was thirsty, I was sick.... thus the Commandment given says love your neighbor as yourself because your neighbor IS yourself. the giver of the Law, Christ Loves like that. He identifies himself  even with the least among us.



English isn't your first language.  You write better than many Americans I know, and you have an excuse for any errors.  I think Fabio should be able to understand this as it is not his first language either, or at least I thought it wasn't.  Then again, that may be some of the disagreement between you as you are translating it in your head from Amharic (?) into English which he then translates into Portuguese when he reads it!

Keep writing.  I always find it worthwhile reading it.

how kind you are! gentle and sweet my dear Vamrat. my gratitude for the encouragement. means a lot coming from you.
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« Reply #83 on: July 03, 2013, 12:30:58 PM »

Well, I did not want to make this an linguistic discussion but since it seems important for you guys, let's go there.

It's true that in my first language, Portuguese, the preposition used ("como") can be translated into English as both "like" and "as".

So, let's address this from a mere philosophical point of view, from the English point of view and from the Greek point of view.

My main point is that *loving yourself* is the reference to which we know if we love others. Can we agree that loving means wishing Good to the beloved? That is of foremost importance.

The preposition "as" in English can be used in several different ways.

I believe it is used in the English Bible with these meanings:

Quote
4. used for referring to what someone or something does or how they appear
As managing director, I am expected to provide effective leadership.

a portrait of the princess as a child

An electric drill can also be used as a screwdriver.

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/as


"As" is used as a comparative both in the examples above and in "love your neighbor as yourself". Comparisons are used because you attribute to the unknown part, traits that exist in the known part.

Let's get some of the examples

"a portrait of the princess as a child".
You really can't have an idea of how the princess is being portrayed unless you know what a child is.

"An electric drill can also be used as a screwdriver."
Again, you are not informed of this new way of using an electric dill if you do not know what screwdriver is.

So, in "love your neighbor as yourself" if you don't know "yourself", if you don't know what's good for you, in other words, if you have no love for yourself, then you'll never know your neighbor (maybe just a character whom you impose over your neighbor), you'll never know what's good for him (maybe just impose on him what *you* feel he should find good), you'll never truly love him.

What Hiwot is reading there is not the preposition "as" itself, but a phrase that is not there by any means "as if he were", which is a completely different thing.

In fact, in Greek we have  Ἀγαπήσεις τὸν πλησίον σου ὡς σεαυτόν. where "ós" is translated as... "like" or "as". (http://www.greekbible.com/index.php ), meaning the Portuguese preposition "como" keeps the ambiguity that the English translation is forced to ommit. Even if "as" had the sense of "as if he were" that Hiwot implies, and it does not, the original has that ambiguous meaning of both like and as.


I think we need more punctuation there. Not trying to be mean or anything, it just really made it more difficult to read.

To address this, I have to go back to the discussion above about loving yourself. There lies the whole problem. I was retranslating from Portuguese, where the same preposition "como" is used for the prepositions "like" and "as". I don't know what the Greek original is.

But, even if it is the exact same meaning in "as yourself", I think it is forcing a strict distinction that is pointless here. To love the other you still have to know "yourself" and you don't really know something you don't love. I see a very clear distinction between selfishness and egotism and a person loving him/herself. The first is idolatry. But if you don't know who you are - and again, knowing requires love first - if you don't understand what being a person is in the very specific and concrete context of you, I doubt you will be able to know or love anyone. I always doubt "spiritual" people who show a lack of self-knowledge, of perception of who they are, their place in society and their impact on other people.

An analogy is very clarifying here. It is well established that the person who chooses a monastic life out of despise for marriage is in sin - not unlike those who live married and despise monastic life. The sacrifice the monk does only has value if he understands the high value of what he is sacrificing, just like married people should understand what it is that they are missing by not having a monastic life.

We are called to sacrifice our lives for love of God. Just like in the situation above, it only has value if we understand the value of that which we are sacrificing, something that you...love. Love is not possessive, so real love of oneself is not possessive, egotistical. You don't want to be the master of yourself because in your love for you, you understand that God's sovereignity is what is best for you. If you don't understand that you need a hug sometimes, or kind words, and if you never desired this to yourself out of love, how will you understand that this must be given to those who need it? That's the difference between throwing some coins in a tin and going to the supermarket and buying not only a bread and some water, but some cookies, some hygene items, maybe ham and sausages. If you never wanted it for yourself you'll hardly notice that those in need also want it. Compassion is not only feelling the pain of others, but also feelling the love that God has for you.

Quote
I trust you to be completely utterly human and know you will love me any way,

That is what makes it never work. God, who is our model of love does *not* love us in that way. He sees our flaws and He desires these flaws end. He hates them in fact, although He loves us.

I know where you guys are coming from, because I felt that need as well, and that never worked as well. And it doesn't work because it simply is not love. It is beeing needy and with low self-steem, to accept that other people abuse us with their sins just so we can have permission to abuse them with ours.

True love understands that we will not be perfect but is not lenient with our limitations nor finds them "cute" or "charming" or "humane". If it's a sin, it's gotta go, to the best of our strength. We have to love growing and to see the beloved grow as well.

Fabio, I dont know how you read sin into being human or how that is described as a codependent relationship encouraging a a downright cycle of abuse and complacency. but in case you went by the common saying of people when they describe what sometimes is a sin as being human then all that explains your explanation although even in your explanation there is the truth that God loves the person even if that person is flawed and God desires that flaw to be healed.i am a sinner it is a fact,the one i will call a friend would love me the person regardless of the state of brokenness i find myself. that does not necessarily mean my friend thinks my sins are cute or humane, it simply means my friend loves me.even if my friend hates my sins and desires for me to abandon them because they will harm me.my perfection is not the condition for my friend's love for me. furthermore let me point out what i had in mind when i said utterly human in addition to what i have said already.

there are friendships that are only about having fun, putting up a front that you got it all figured out, that you do not go through times of emotional, physical,psychological or economic trials. i lose someone who means the world to me i go into a deep sadness and behave like the world has come to an end, would you be my friend then and with your love guide me into the light and sooth my pain? i loose my health and strength  that would also make me loose my dignity would you be there as my friend. my dreams are foiled and i feel lost and in pain, and in that pain i am not as nice as i used to be would you have the strength to love me then? can you be the one who i do not have to hide my wounds from?.....

living life in this fallen world is not easy, love accepts the person,corrects what can be corrected,strengthens the weakened, inspires and elevates into the sublime. only love can do such things because love is the only one that braves the fires of hell to rescue and embrace in its light, the person trapped in them.


Fabio, I am sorry for the way I wrote, I was in quite a hurry, but even if I was not in a hurry, my punctuation skills are very little to none. and let us not mention the rest of my grammatical , vocabulary, syntax blunders. i can only imagine the pain some of you must be experiencing reading my posts. i sincerely apologize, I will try to be coherent the best I can , which isn't much i know but that's all I have.

Fabio I read what you wrote more than twice, and I think it is the result of my bad writing skills that lead to your difficulty of reading my post because I found no specific correlation between the point I was making in my post and your reply.Therefore, I will leave that post alone.

So instead I read the discussion about loving yourself. In that post Peter makes a very crucial point, you argue it is forcing a distinction when there is none. but that is not true because there is a clear fundamental distinction, read what he wrote again and reflect. if we are talking about Divine Love, and its manifestation in us.. then Loving our neighbor as ourselves holds in it the kind of love God has for us. Our Lord when he comes back in Glory, he will say...I was hungry, I was thirsty, I was sick.... thus the Commandment given says love your neighbor as yourself because your neighbor IS yourself. the giver of the Law, Christ Loves like that. He identifies himself  even with the least among us.


« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 12:33:30 PM by Fabio Leite » Logged

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« Reply #84 on: July 03, 2013, 12:48:03 PM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever. Spat out by Christians and the like to sounds wise but never really answers what could be a good mate. (i.e. heard that one 40 times and followed it since 6 years before I had an opportunity to have a first date.)

Why is this bad advice?  What is your mission in dating?  Is it not to find a spouse?  I wouldn't waste my time, efforts, not to mention emotions on someone whom I didn't see as a future husband.

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« Reply #85 on: July 03, 2013, 12:49:33 PM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever.

Then do as you like/want, stop asking for others advice, and live with the penalties.  If you want the easy way rather than the correct way, you can do that all by yourself without the influence of others.
Is that what you think, that the way you present here is always the correct way?

I'm confused.  Are you suggesting she date men whom she has no intention of marrying?
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« Reply #86 on: July 03, 2013, 01:03:58 PM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever.

Then do as you like/want, stop asking for others advice, and live with the penalties.  If you want the easy way rather than the correct way, you can do that all by yourself without the influence of others.
Is that what you think, that the way you present here is always the correct way?

I'm confused.  Are you suggesting she date men whom she has no intention of marrying?


Absolutely, I would suggest that. And furthermore I would suggest not dating anyone she has the intention of marrying.
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« Reply #87 on: July 03, 2013, 01:05:34 PM »

Advice List:

1) Don’t take advice from those too young to give it out.

I agree.  It's best to ask advice of those who have a bit of experience, and are not stuck in the "puppy love" phase.  Wink

2) Don’t take advice from someone who immediately asks sexual or sensual questions.  That isn't what it's all about.

VERY true.  Don't repeat a date with someone who does this, as well.


3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?

I've agreed to this in a previous post.  It's a waste of time and pointless to be "dating" if you aren't potentially going to marry the individual.  If you are, it's not dating, but, hanging out with your friends.  Or, you aren't looking for marriage, only a good time.  You have to define your personal reasons for dating.

4) Pray about it.  God may have neither of them planned for you.  For instance, are they Orthodox?

This is great advice.  Don't be heartbroken if your dream date turns out to be a nightmare.  It is true that God has a plan for each one of us.  Don't hurry up and accept the person who is not the one God has chosen for you.

5) Don’t rush into anything.

There's no need to rush.  You are young, and if you wish to have children, you've got time.  This is a lifelong decision.  Take your time.  Think about it.  Pray about it.  

6) Follow your heart as God provides.

I agree.  Give thanks to God at all times and in all situations.  If the current "date" doesn't work, it only means there's a better one waiting for you.  Smiley

Mostly, before you invest your heart, be sure this man fits your criteria.  Granted nobody is perfect, neither he, nor she...however, everyone has something they are "looking" for.  I would think first on the list would his Faith.  He must be Orthodox.   Then whatever you find pleasing - sense of humor, romantic, laughs with you, not at you....doesn't put you down.  Doesn't put down your family, your heritage, etc.  Doesn't put down anything you find valuable.  Doesn't belittle others.

Do you miss him, when you aren't with him?  That alone, says a lot.

Finally, my mom gave me a piece of advice when I came "of age".  When I finally am thinking about getting serious, I need to sit down to a card game with the fella.  LOL!  I laughed when she said that.  She was serious.  She said that in playing the "game" of cards, he will show his true self.  Will he be overly competitive, combative, throw a hissy fit when he loses, try to cheat, etc.  Or will he be mild mannered in the game, even be willing to lose, so, you could win.  It works like a charm.  Wink

Wishing you the best of luck in finding the spouse, not only of your dreams, but, the one God has chosen to be the best fit for you.

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« Reply #88 on: July 03, 2013, 01:07:22 PM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever.

Then do as you like/want, stop asking for others advice, and live with the penalties.  If you want the easy way rather than the correct way, you can do that all by yourself without the influence of others.
Is that what you think, that the way you present here is always the correct way?

I'm confused.  Are you suggesting she date men whom she has no intention of marrying?


Absolutely, I would suggest that. And furthermore I would suggest not dating anyone she has the intention of marrying.

Then why date, at all?  No?  In olden times, she would simply be married to the man her family chose for her.  But, as this is 2013, that practice has become outdated in most places.

So, if not to find a spouse, what reason would there be for dating? 

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« Reply #89 on: July 03, 2013, 01:14:37 PM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever.

Then do as you like/want, stop asking for others advice, and live with the penalties.  If you want the easy way rather than the correct way, you can do that all by yourself without the influence of others.
Is that what you think, that the way you present here is always the correct way?

I'm confused.  Are you suggesting she date men whom she has no intention of marrying?


Absolutely, I would suggest that. And furthermore I would suggest not dating anyone she has the intention of marrying.

Then why date, at all?  No?  In olden times, she would simply be married to the man her family chose for her.  But, as this is 2013, that practice has become outdated in most places.

So, if not to find a spouse, what reason would there be for dating? 



Yes, those olden times women were baggage to be disposed of. To cross thread, as I said elsewhere recently, many Christians elevate their own cultural backward ways or those they wish they could live over the true love which is Romantic love.

I know many girls who want to marry their father and boys who want to marry their mother. Should they date them?

No.

Of course, this is a stupidity, but if you think such childish whims end with childhood, then I can only say someone is gravely naive.

If you intend on marrying someone without having dated, that is madness. Perhaps a wonderful madness occasionally, but madness all the same.

So go pick a man based on a CV or an online dating site or based on the matching making of your Priests and commit to marrying them before you get to know them.

Really, people around here pathologize spirituality and spiritualize pathology.
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« Reply #90 on: July 03, 2013, 01:17:34 PM »

Finally, my mom gave me a piece of advice when I came "of age".  When I finally am thinking about getting serious, I need to sit down to a card game with the fella.  LOL!  I laughed when she said that.  She was serious.  She said that in playing the "game" of cards, he will show his true self.  Will he be overly competitive, combative, throw a hissy fit when he loses, try to cheat, etc.  Or will he be mild mannered in the game, even be willing to lose, so, you could win.  It works like a charm.  Wink

Liza, cause I know you are dying to know.

I am a very, very, very, sore winner, unless being polite and the like means more long term opportunities to fleece someone.

I am an incredibly gracious loser.

Based on this, let me if and when our nuptials will be.
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« Reply #91 on: July 03, 2013, 02:32:06 PM »


LOL!  You'd never be bored!!!  Wink

....and I can cook!
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« Reply #92 on: July 03, 2013, 02:34:18 PM »


If you intend on marrying someone without having dated, that is madness. Perhaps a wonderful madness occasionally, but madness all the same.


So, now I'm confused by what you are saying.

You said before that she should not date the one who might be a potential spouse....and then you say that someone who marries without dating is mad.

Which is it?
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« Reply #93 on: July 03, 2013, 02:43:11 PM »


If you intend on marrying someone without having dated, that is madness. Perhaps a wonderful madness occasionally, but madness all the same.


So, now I'm confused by what you are saying.

You said before that she should not date the one who might be a potential spouse....and then you say that someone who marries without dating is mad.

Which is it?


It seems some around here believe marriage should be the goal of a specific date.

In other words to be clear about the insanity around here:

Before you go on a date with someone, you should be intending to marry them.

That is crazy. At least at this time in the US.

But I don't think you should marry someone, for love, unless you have dated them.

Dating might be the prelude to marriage, but a single date shouldn't be.
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« Reply #94 on: July 03, 2013, 04:11:31 PM »


If you intend on marrying someone without having dated, that is madness. Perhaps a wonderful madness occasionally, but madness all the same.


So, now I'm confused by what you are saying.

You said before that she should not date the one who might be a potential spouse....and then you say that someone who marries without dating is mad.

Which is it?


It seems some around here believe marriage should be the goal of a specific date.

In other words to be clear about the insanity around here:

Before you go on a date with someone, you should be intending to marry them.

That is crazy. At least at this time in the US.

But I don't think you should marry someone, for love, unless you have dated them.

Dating might be the prelude to marriage, but a single date shouldn't be.

Ah, I see.   However, just because it's "not done" in the U.S. does not mean it shouldn't be done.

You don't go on one date, and the very next step is marriage.  However, that first date is to give you a look on whether that person is someone whom you would possibly see marrying.  If so, than comes the second date.  If not, it stops there.

If the person is not marriage material, what is the purpose of continuing to date them?

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« Reply #95 on: July 03, 2013, 05:32:30 PM »


If you intend on marrying someone without having dated, that is madness. Perhaps a wonderful madness occasionally, but madness all the same.


So, now I'm confused by what you are saying.

You said before that she should not date the one who might be a potential spouse....and then you say that someone who marries without dating is mad.

Which is it?


It seems some around here believe marriage should be the goal of a specific date.

In other words to be clear about the insanity around here:

Before you go on a date with someone, you should be intending to marry them.

That is crazy. At least at this time in the US.

But I don't think you should marry someone, for love, unless you have dated them.

Dating might be the prelude to marriage, but a single date shouldn't be.

Ah, I see.   However, just because it's "not done" in the U.S. does not mean it shouldn't be done.

You don't go on one date, and the very next step is marriage.  However, that first date is to give you a look on whether that person is someone whom you would possibly see marrying.  If so, than comes the second date.  If not, it stops there.

If the person is not marriage material, what is the purpose of continuing to date them?



If what is done outside the US amounts to some odd notion of women being treated as property moved from one man to the next or one community to the next (I don't care if she if communal or private property) then yeah, it shouldn't be done, and certainly not here.
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« Reply #96 on: July 03, 2013, 05:37:08 PM »


If you intend on marrying someone without having dated, that is madness. Perhaps a wonderful madness occasionally, but madness all the same.


So, now I'm confused by what you are saying.

You said before that she should not date the one who might be a potential spouse....and then you say that someone who marries without dating is mad.

Which is it?


It seems some around here believe marriage should be the goal of a specific date.

In other words to be clear about the insanity around here:

Before you go on a date with someone, you should be intending to marry them.

That is crazy. At least at this time in the US.

But I don't think you should marry someone, for love, unless you have dated them.

Dating might be the prelude to marriage, but a single date shouldn't be.

Ah, I see.   However, just because it's "not done" in the U.S. does not mean it shouldn't be done.

You don't go on one date, and the very next step is marriage.  However, that first date is to give you a look on whether that person is someone whom you would possibly see marrying.  If so, than comes the second date.  If not, it stops there.

If the person is not marriage material, what is the purpose of continuing to date them?



You date to learn how to begin to understand any of the above.

If you think the girl meeting a boy at age 14 or whatever at the HS football game should be thinking about marriage, I dunno, sounds crazy to me.

You learn by doing and outside exceptional cases marriage is still a product of happenstance and stupidity in the US, thank God.

But, hey as dating services increase, google will play matchmaker soon for everyone and we can get rid of this whole "love" thing that most folks seem to have a problem with around here, unless it is denuded of any physicality.

Have mercy on our souls.

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« Reply #97 on: July 03, 2013, 05:41:03 PM »


I'm all for love...but, you have to admit, the 14 year old girl dating the football star, doesn't truly know the meaning of "love"...don't you think?

I wasn't talking really about kids, but, about adults dating.  Adults usually date to either find a spouse, or a "boyfriend/girlfriend" with no intention of getting married, just to have a good time.

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« Reply #98 on: July 03, 2013, 06:10:45 PM »

You two are talking past each other and I suspect it's mostly the fault of orthonorm's deliberate unclarity.

There are two positions on this point that I think are not in conflict, though they appear to be if either is expressed in ambiguous terms, which is, after all, orthonorm's schtick.

1: It is unreasonable to expect that each individual date be entered into subsequent to forming a settled intention to one day marry the person dating.

2: It is reasonable, within an Orthodox Christian context at least, for the whole process of dating, as a whole, including all the individual dates one may go on and all the individual partners one may date, to be ordered toward the goal of one day finding and marrying someone.

Do with that what you will; with any luck it'll at least advance the cause of a real discussion with mutual understanding on some level rather than bemused obtusity on one side and growing frustration on the other.

But maybe not.
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« Reply #99 on: July 03, 2013, 08:16:29 PM »

Verily it is without the possibility of a doubt that your articulation of words in the particular order manifested here is a much clearer exposition of the subject matter at hand than the purposely oblique and vague ramblings of this orthonorm fellow.

If my last statement sounds wordy you're probably dumb.
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« Reply #100 on: July 03, 2013, 08:18:28 PM »

LOL.

Yeah, I noticed that a bit myself.

The difference being that while I may be using a somewhat awkward phrasing, my choice of words is not chosen with the conscious intention to confuse others for my amusement.
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« Reply #101 on: July 03, 2013, 08:47:50 PM »

Verily it is without the possibility of a doubt that your articulation of words in the particular order manifested here is a much clearer exposition of the subject matter at hand than the purposely oblique and vague ramblings of this orthonorm fellow.

If my last statement sounds wordy you're probably dumb.

That's scary. Stop, before you can't turn back!   Shocked
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« Reply #102 on: July 03, 2013, 11:34:07 PM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever. Spat out by Christians and the like to sounds wise but never really answers what could be a good mate. (i.e. heard that one 40 times and followed it since 6 years before I had an opportunity to have a first date.)

Why is this bad advice?  What is your mission in dating?  Is it not to find a spouse?  I wouldn't waste my time, efforts, not to mention emotions on someone whom I didn't see as a future husband.
It's bad advice because it adds nothing to what I am doing already. I want advice I didn't hear several years before my first date. This does not mean that I want someone to say I should date without respect for a future marriage, but I want something that adds to it. If I was not trying to follow such advice already, I would not have started this thread. So every time someone tells me that, it changes nothing in my life and answers no question and helps no more than anything I have already tried to do.
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« Reply #103 on: July 04, 2013, 12:19:13 AM »

As you grow, mature, experience more things in life (as we all do) you will learn the truth is always the truth.  When we get tired of waiting and want to change things, the truth will still be the truth.  Think of Zechariah and his disbelief.  He became tired of waiting. 

One of the things you must realize is many people just spit out advice based on personal ideas of how they want the world to work, while others (fewer) provide advice from mistakes they have made (because they didn’t listen and became impatient) in the hope it will help you not to make those same mistakes.  Those same people also learned what I stated above, truth will always be true.  With that information, I confess I have made many mistakes in my life which I am more than willing to keep others from making if they are willing to accept guidance from someone who had to learn the hard way. 

Some people view my posts as lofty perching.  They are wrong.  Much of my learning came with battle scars.  Just because you have not seen the results in the time span you wanted does not mean the advice you were given and have been following was wrong.  Faith should not stop when we don’t get what we want when and how we want it.
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« Reply #104 on: July 04, 2013, 12:51:17 AM »


What Hiwot is reading there is not the preposition "as" itself, but a phrase that is not there by any means "as if he were", which is a completely different thing.

In fact, in Greek we have  Ἀγαπήσεις τὸν πλησίον σου ὡς σεαυτόν. where "ós" is translated as... "like" or "as". (http://www.greekbible.com/index.php ), meaning the Portuguese preposition "como" keeps the ambiguity that the English translation is forced to ommit. Even if "as" had the sense of "as if he were" that Hiwot implies, and it does not, the original has that ambiguous meaning of both like and as.

It is late, but I am seeing some problematical situations with what you are proposing. "As if he were" does not have as many limitations to letting us love one another. I will try reading this post later when I am more awake and more likely the answers are up above.
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« Reply #105 on: July 04, 2013, 06:39:29 AM »

Why does marriage have to be the end game of dating?

Whose to say dating doesn't lead into monasticsm? Wink
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« Reply #106 on: July 04, 2013, 08:47:27 AM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever. Spat out by Christians and the like to sounds wise but never really answers what could be a good mate. (i.e. heard that one 40 times and followed it since 6 years before I had an opportunity to have a first date.)

Why is this bad advice?  What is your mission in dating?  Is it not to find a spouse?  I wouldn't waste my time, efforts, not to mention emotions on someone whom I didn't see as a future husband.
It's bad advice because it adds nothing to what I am doing already. I want advice I didn't hear several years before my first date. This does not mean that I want someone to say I should date without respect for a future marriage, but I want something that adds to it. If I was not trying to follow such advice already, I would not have started this thread. So every time someone tells me that, it changes nothing in my life and answers no question and helps no more than anything I have already tried to do.

Who is to know what you already know and what you do not know?  Therefore, preople give the best advice they have. If you don't need their advice just skip over it and read the next post.

There's no need to be insulting to the person who was trying to help you.

Kerdy, I think your advice was spot on.
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« Reply #107 on: July 04, 2013, 08:53:56 AM »

Why does marriage have to be the end game of dating?

Whose to say dating doesn't lead into monasticsm? Wink

Seriously?

If the dating is not geared towards a potential relationship (marriage or shacking up) than what is the main goal?

If it is not in order to get to know the other person and "fall in love", than it is not "dating", but, hanging out, going for a drink, dinner, movie, etc. with a friend. It is not dating.

One must decide for themselves why they are going out with this person.

As an Orthodox Christian, dating ought to have marriage as a goal. Going out to see if you like this person and one day it might lead to marriage.

People are just fooling themselves and trying to make themselves feel better, if they are dating for other reasons.


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« Reply #108 on: July 04, 2013, 10:47:22 AM »

No Liza, my point is that dating can lead to different outcomes. Our dear JamesR may end up dating several women and may decide monasticism is more of his calling.

Again I think that Anastasia1 should go on some dates and have some fun with it. This notion that if you could see yourself possibly marrying the other person on a first date is ridiculous. It may take quite some time until it is revealed if you could possibly marry someone.

I think folks on this forum are really advocating a form of prearranged marriage than anything else. You know this sort of checklist for what the other person needs to fulfill, which to me is a removal of any sort of romance. It's like online dating. I remember trying to register on eHarmony for some laughs and it seriously took me well over 30 minutes to create a profile because you had to be so specific on exactly what you are looking for. I think it is sheer insanity to project a fantasy of what we want in another person to fit in our box. It is too far removed from actually engaging with a person, and you really start to make people turn into standardized tests.

"No I can't really fall in love with you unless you have a credit score of 735, have an index finger length of 4.65", and like diet Snapple iced tea", do you see how absurd this sounds? And this is the future of dating? How frightening. And you are doing the same here "Well I can't fall in love or dive into the passion of romance unless I know I want to marry you.", but again that is nonsense.

As for me, I would rather be swirled up in the mystery of romantic love with no pragmatism. There is an inherent risk with romance that I find to be absolutely thrilling, especially with passion. I don't believe that love should be a checklist of what qualities another person should have nor do I think there is a measurable goal of marriage, either. Why are these requisites to love? They are not. I may very well be in love with another person that I may not actually see myself marrying, perhaps we cannot unify ourselves to be one person and we have divergent personalities or something.
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« Reply #109 on: July 04, 2013, 03:05:38 PM »

It's ok to be empirical when you're 13 or 14 because not only you don't have any experience, you don't even know yourself that well yet.

If you are above 20 and you still don't know what kind of person matches you, what kind of person hurts you, what kind of life you want to live and therefore what kind of person would want to share it with you, turn the yellow lights on.

I recommend everyone on this thread to watch this 15 minute Ted Talk from psychologist specialized on people in their 20s.

http://www.ted.com/talks/meg_jay_why_30_is_not_the_new_20.html

I didn't read the book, but if it's as good as the talk, it's worth it:
The Defining Decade: Why Your Twenties Matter--And How to Make the Most of Them Now
http://www.amazon.com/Defining-Decade-Your-Twenties-Matter--/dp/0446561754/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372965335&sr=1-1
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« Reply #110 on: July 04, 2013, 03:22:45 PM »

No Liza, my point is that dating can lead to different outcomes. Our dear JamesR may end up dating several women and may decide monasticism is more of his calling.

Again I think that Anastasia1 should go on some dates and have some fun with it. This notion that if you could see yourself possibly marrying the other person on a first date is ridiculous. It may take quite some time until it is revealed if you could possibly marry someone.


Exactly. But, the end goal is still marriage.

So, if you know for sure that you would never consider marrying a man with a red beard (just an example) then don't go on a date with a man sporting a red beard.

That's all I'm saying. I'm not inferring that after your first date you can already start planning your wedding. No. But, after the first date you get a pretty good feel for the other person, and either continue or not.


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« Reply #111 on: July 04, 2013, 03:47:08 PM »

orthonorm's deliberate unclarity.
While it is a deliberate posture, this unclarity can bring clarity. He makes you think with his intricate maze-like fragments. There have been many posts he has made that I cannot comprehend what he is writing, but I'm not going to be frustrated or angry about it, but it does require some work, if you are willing to put forth the effort. You keep axe grinding without putting into any thought of what he has to say. Again I think too many of you on this board are so adamant about ethics that you miss what is actually being discussed.

Really this forum is becoming somewhat of a bore with the moralizing of Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #112 on: July 04, 2013, 03:47:08 PM »

It's ok to be empirical when you're 13 or 14 because not only you don't have any experience, you don't even know yourself that well yet.

If you are above 20 and you still don't know what kind of person matches you, what kind of person hurts you, what kind of life you want to live and therefore what kind of person would want to share it with you, turn the yellow lights on.

I recommend everyone on this thread to watch this 15 minute Ted Talk from psychologist specialized on people in their 20s.

http://www.ted.com/talks/meg_jay_why_30_is_not_the_new_20.html

I didn't read the book, but if it's as good as the talk, it's worth it:
The Defining Decade: Why Your Twenties Matter--And How to Make the Most of Them Now
http://www.amazon.com/Defining-Decade-Your-Twenties-Matter--/dp/0446561754/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372965335&sr=1-1
The above is not worth anyone's time.

We should have classes and guidance counselors to pick a spouse? What is with this disgusting outsourcing of love?

Worthless trash.
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« Reply #113 on: July 04, 2013, 04:09:30 PM »

LOL "love." You guys crack me up.

I don't see why "love" matters so much. I could "love" someone but be completely incompatible with them or they could not be what I want at all. I don't want a wife that I "love," I want a wife that is compatible with my expectations for the marriage.

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.
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« Reply #114 on: July 04, 2013, 04:22:45 PM »

LOL "love." You guys crack me up.

I don't see why "love" matters so much. I could "love" someone but be completely incompatible with them or they could not be what I want at all. I don't want a wife that I "love," I want a wife that is compatible with my expectations for the marriage.

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.
And JamesR nailed it.

But the romantic in me still longs for that kind of romantic love.
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« Reply #115 on: July 04, 2013, 04:44:29 PM »

It's a pitty.

It's not about a manicheist choice about being blindly and stupidly in love in a toxic relationship or paying an agreeable but inofensive maid to have sex with you sometimes.

If the person has given up the natural tensions of life entirely to mad passion or cold reason, life itself has been given up. Life is tension.

I still like the image of the rider and the horse, where the rider is conscious choice, reason, analysis and the horse is passion, intensity. Left alone the horse just eats grass and runs around. Left alone the rider can't go very far or fast. A rider without control on a wild horse will get hurt. A cruel rider who exerts excessive control ends up hurting the horse. The ideal is a rider that without violence or beatings is in control of a tamed but strong, healthy and happy horse, and who see each other as friends. Together they can win competitions, go faster and further than alone, even fight enemies together with more effectiveness.

LOL "love." You guys crack me up.

I don't see why "love" matters so much. I could "love" someone but be completely incompatible with them or they could not be what I want at all. I don't want a wife that I "love," I want a wife that is compatible with my expectations for the marriage.

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.
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« Reply #116 on: July 04, 2013, 05:46:28 PM »

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.

Such a wife will take off as soon as you hit a rough patch. If the only thing she gets out of it is spending your money, as soon as you're not bringing home the kind of bacon she wants, she'll move to a more profitable agreement with someone else.

We romantic fools who married for love draw on that love to make it through the hard times.
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« Reply #117 on: July 04, 2013, 06:50:15 PM »

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.

Such a wife will take off as soon as you hit a rough patch. If the only thing she gets out of it is spending your money, as soon as you're not bringing home the kind of bacon she wants, she'll move to a more profitable agreement with someone else.

We romantic fools who married for love draw on that love to make it through the hard times.

Ah, Arachne, yet again the voice of reason and wisdom!  Cheesy
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« Reply #118 on: July 04, 2013, 07:17:23 PM »

orthonorm's deliberate unclarity.
While it is a deliberate posture, this unclarity can bring clarity. He makes you think with his intricate maze-like fragments. There have been many posts he has made that I cannot comprehend what he is writing, but I'm not going to be frustrated or angry about it, but it does require some work, if you are willing to put forth the effort. You keep axe grinding without putting into any thought of what he has to say. Again I think too many of you on this board are so adamant about ethics that you miss what is actually being discussed.

Really this forum is becoming somewhat of a bore with the moralizing of Orthodoxy.

You're wrong.

I consider orthonorm to be pretentious and often irritating, but I won't claim he's not also sometimes entertaining and informative.

I just felt that in this instance it was doing more harm than good.

Perhaps I butted in where I wasn't wanted...or didn't really want to be. But it's not that I dismiss orthonorm's wise sensei act entirely.
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« Reply #119 on: July 04, 2013, 07:42:30 PM »

I'm doubt I will have the current friend. B and I had a fight, sort of, and I don't think B is interested in staying just friends with me unless it is something more. B's a nice guy, genuinely cares for me, wants a small town life with a family and has a little less ambition than I, small town, small company engineer/wanna be husband and eventually a father. B is definitively Roman rite, white guy, but accepting of eastern Christianity and stuff. One of my friends (E) thinks B is a great guy, and worth keeping. B wants to eventually have four kids. (B is mildly OCD, and I am ADHD.) I do meet similar guys every once in a while, and on some level feel like that is what I am supposed to end up with, but I don't know if I would have to give up too much for that.

E's fiance (K) knows another guy whom I do not know much about, but let's say he (x) may represent others as well. X's dad is high up in a big company, and X has a good job, and is friends with the more capitalist friend. (Don't know this particular guy's faith, but this friend (K) is Catholic and knows I am Orthodox and religious.)


I recently decided that I want to start a small business and or non-profit unless I get a really busy or great job and I want to be able to afford to travel at some point. I hope I'm not being shallow here. I spent jr. high and part of high school reading travel guides, dreaming of adventures, just didn't know how to do it or believe that I could. I grew up in a mobile home park, and then had a parent get sick.

I was described a year or two ago as a rural personality with urban tastes. I have to preschedule any evening outings because of family right now, and make slightly above minimum wage, but am working on changing that.

Your friend who wants to be more than a friend already has a fiance?

As to advice, listen to Vamrat.

yeah in addition to clarifying that Anastasia, can you answer Achronos's first question about sexual attraction?

he might love you and that might feel good for one's ego but the real question is do you or can you return the sentiment?

I too had trouble understanding those sentences I have highlighted in addition to what tuesdayschild did.

and I agree, excellent advice Vamrat, especially his last paragraph Anastasia.
I have two friends (E and K) that are engaged and this guy (B) who is in love with me is another guy. Total of three people. The woman in the engaged couple knows another guy (4th person) who the thought of setting me up with had crossed her mind.

This guy that is in love with me, he is sort of cute, but I would be more attracted to him if he was more a bold guy, and a go-getter, less of a quiet little home somewhere with wife and kids and not much else that he needs in life. (Is it bad to say that about such an approach to life?)

The context of urban vs. rural was in asking if I seemed like I belonged more with an urban city guy or a rural country guy.

Thank you for clarifying, Anastasia1.

Regarding your friend B, you describe him as Roman Rite but accepting of eastern Christianity, a mildly OCD engineer (imagine that!) wanting the small town family life.  And you don't want him? Okay. I know a couple of cute young ladies that are looking for a stable, employed, devout Christian man. PM his contact info. If he plays his cards right, he might just find himself in a frivorce-proof marriage to a sweet little homemaker.

Do they like the desert and the southwest?

I'm always afraid guys like that won't care that much about changing the world and I'll give up my dream of being part of something extraordinary besides a church and our marriage for a guy who won't be a part of anything extraordinary besides a church and a marriage, and I'll look back on my life and regret that, and we will at best be like any other family but not disfunctional like some.
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« Reply #120 on: July 04, 2013, 08:44:06 PM »

Why does marriage have to be the end game of dating?
Who said it was?  I still take my wife on dates, when I am able.
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« Reply #121 on: July 04, 2013, 08:47:08 PM »

LOL "love." You guys crack me up.

I don't see why "love" matters so much. I could "love" someone but be completely incompatible with them or they could not be what I want at all. I don't want a wife that I "love," I want a wife that is compatible with my expectations for the marriage.

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.
This is such a pitiful post. Cry
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« Reply #122 on: July 04, 2013, 08:48:54 PM »

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.

Such a wife will take off as soon as you hit a rough patch. If the only thing she gets out of it is spending your money, as soon as you're not bringing home the kind of bacon she wants, she'll move to a more profitable agreement with someone else.

We romantic fools who married for love draw on that love to make it through the hard times.
Completely agree!  Marriage isn't easy and if you don't have an abundance on love and determination, you failed.
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« Reply #123 on: July 04, 2013, 08:54:57 PM »

I'm doubt I will have the current friend. B and I had a fight, sort of, and I don't think B is interested in staying just friends with me unless it is something more. B's a nice guy, genuinely cares for me, wants a small town life with a family and has a little less ambition than I, small town, small company engineer/wanna be husband and eventually a father. B is definitively Roman rite, white guy, but accepting of eastern Christianity and stuff. One of my friends (E) thinks B is a great guy, and worth keeping. B wants to eventually have four kids. (B is mildly OCD, and I am ADHD.) I do meet similar guys every once in a while, and on some level feel like that is what I am supposed to end up with, but I don't know if I would have to give up too much for that.

E's fiance (K) knows another guy whom I do not know much about, but let's say he (x) may represent others as well. X's dad is high up in a big company, and X has a good job, and is friends with the more capitalist friend. (Don't know this particular guy's faith, but this friend (K) is Catholic and knows I am Orthodox and religious.)


I recently decided that I want to start a small business and or non-profit unless I get a really busy or great job and I want to be able to afford to travel at some point. I hope I'm not being shallow here. I spent jr. high and part of high school reading travel guides, dreaming of adventures, just didn't know how to do it or believe that I could. I grew up in a mobile home park, and then had a parent get sick.

I was described a year or two ago as a rural personality with urban tastes. I have to preschedule any evening outings because of family right now, and make slightly above minimum wage, but am working on changing that.

Your friend who wants to be more than a friend already has a fiance?

As to advice, listen to Vamrat.

yeah in addition to clarifying that Anastasia, can you answer Achronos's first question about sexual attraction?

he might love you and that might feel good for one's ego but the real question is do you or can you return the sentiment?

I too had trouble understanding those sentences I have highlighted in addition to what tuesdayschild did.

and I agree, excellent advice Vamrat, especially his last paragraph Anastasia.
I have two friends (E and K) that are engaged and this guy (B) who is in love with me is another guy. Total of three people. The woman in the engaged couple knows another guy (4th person) who the thought of setting me up with had crossed her mind.

This guy that is in love with me, he is sort of cute, but I would be more attracted to him if he was more a bold guy, and a go-getter, less of a quiet little home somewhere with wife and kids and not much else that he needs in life. (Is it bad to say that about such an approach to life?)

The context of urban vs. rural was in asking if I seemed like I belonged more with an urban city guy or a rural country guy.

Thank you for clarifying, Anastasia1.

Regarding your friend B, you describe him as Roman Rite but accepting of eastern Christianity, a mildly OCD engineer (imagine that!) wanting the small town family life.  And you don't want him? Okay. I know a couple of cute young ladies that are looking for a stable, employed, devout Christian man. PM his contact info. If he plays his cards right, he might just find himself in a frivorce-proof marriage to a sweet little homemaker.

Do they like the desert and the southwest?

I'm always afraid guys like that won't care that much about changing the world and I'll give up my dream of being part of something extraordinary besides a church and our marriage for a guy who won't be a part of anything extraordinary besides a church and a marriage, and I'll look back on my life and regret that, and we will at best be like any other family but not disfunctional like some.
But family is extraordinary.  In fact, the most extraordinary thing you'll ever have a chance to be a part of in your life.
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« Reply #124 on: July 04, 2013, 10:29:27 PM »

I'm doubt I will have the current friend. B and I had a fight, sort of, and I don't think B is interested in staying just friends with me unless it is something more. B's a nice guy, genuinely cares for me, wants a small town life with a family and has a little less ambition than I, small town, small company engineer/wanna be husband and eventually a father. B is definitively Roman rite, white guy, but accepting of eastern Christianity and stuff. One of my friends (E) thinks B is a great guy, and worth keeping. B wants to eventually have four kids. (B is mildly OCD, and I am ADHD.) I do meet similar guys every once in a while, and on some level feel like that is what I am supposed to end up with, but I don't know if I would have to give up too much for that.

E's fiance (K) knows another guy whom I do not know much about, but let's say he (x) may represent others as well. X's dad is high up in a big company, and X has a good job, and is friends with the more capitalist friend. (Don't know this particular guy's faith, but this friend (K) is Catholic and knows I am Orthodox and religious.)


I recently decided that I want to start a small business and or non-profit unless I get a really busy or great job and I want to be able to afford to travel at some point. I hope I'm not being shallow here. I spent jr. high and part of high school reading travel guides, dreaming of adventures, just didn't know how to do it or believe that I could. I grew up in a mobile home park, and then had a parent get sick.

I was described a year or two ago as a rural personality with urban tastes. I have to preschedule any evening outings because of family right now, and make slightly above minimum wage, but am working on changing that.

Your friend who wants to be more than a friend already has a fiance?

As to advice, listen to Vamrat.

yeah in addition to clarifying that Anastasia, can you answer Achronos's first question about sexual attraction?

he might love you and that might feel good for one's ego but the real question is do you or can you return the sentiment?

I too had trouble understanding those sentences I have highlighted in addition to what tuesdayschild did.

and I agree, excellent advice Vamrat, especially his last paragraph Anastasia.
I have two friends (E and K) that are engaged and this guy (B) who is in love with me is another guy. Total of three people. The woman in the engaged couple knows another guy (4th person) who the thought of setting me up with had crossed her mind.

This guy that is in love with me, he is sort of cute, but I would be more attracted to him if he was more a bold guy, and a go-getter, less of a quiet little home somewhere with wife and kids and not much else that he needs in life. (Is it bad to say that about such an approach to life?)

The context of urban vs. rural was in asking if I seemed like I belonged more with an urban city guy or a rural country guy.

Thank you for clarifying, Anastasia1.

Regarding your friend B, you describe him as Roman Rite but accepting of eastern Christianity, a mildly OCD engineer (imagine that!) wanting the small town family life.  And you don't want him? Okay. I know a couple of cute young ladies that are looking for a stable, employed, devout Christian man. PM his contact info. If he plays his cards right, he might just find himself in a frivorce-proof marriage to a sweet little homemaker.

Do they like the desert and the southwest?

I'm always afraid guys like that won't care that much about changing the world and I'll give up my dream of being part of something extraordinary besides a church and our marriage for a guy who won't be a part of anything extraordinary besides a church and a marriage, and I'll look back on my life and regret that, and we will at best be like any other family but not disfunctional like some.
But family is extraordinary.  In fact, the most extraordinary thing you'll ever have a chance to be a part of in your life.
I spent half of my time for the last decade trying to have a career where I can change the world. Am I really to give that up for a guy who does not have any particular desire for either of us to do that?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 10:33:46 PM by Anastasia1 » Logged

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« Reply #125 on: July 04, 2013, 11:18:41 PM »

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.

Such a wife will take off as soon as you hit a rough patch. If the only thing she gets out of it is spending your money, as soon as you're not bringing home the kind of bacon she wants, she'll move to a more profitable agreement with someone else.

We romantic fools who married for love draw on that love to make it through the hard times.

Agreed.

What a sad way of looking at marriage, James, and I mean that sincerely and without intending to insult you.  The choice ought not be "love" OR "practicality": God intended partnership, and ideally (provided we are matched with the right person and/or don't mess it up) that partnership incorporates the things you talked about but subjects them to love, lives them out in love, and perfects them through love.  Thankfully, you're young and have time, God willing, to learn that there's more to life than one's wallet and penis.   
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« Reply #126 on: July 04, 2013, 11:27:04 PM »

I'm doubt I will have the current friend. B and I had a fight, sort of, and I don't think B is interested in staying just friends with me unless it is something more. B's a nice guy, genuinely cares for me, wants a small town life with a family and has a little less ambition than I, small town, small company engineer/wanna be husband and eventually a father. B is definitively Roman rite, white guy, but accepting of eastern Christianity and stuff. One of my friends (E) thinks B is a great guy, and worth keeping. B wants to eventually have four kids. (B is mildly OCD, and I am ADHD.) I do meet similar guys every once in a while, and on some level feel like that is what I am supposed to end up with, but I don't know if I would have to give up too much for that.

E's fiance (K) knows another guy whom I do not know much about, but let's say he (x) may represent others as well. X's dad is high up in a big company, and X has a good job, and is friends with the more capitalist friend. (Don't know this particular guy's faith, but this friend (K) is Catholic and knows I am Orthodox and religious.)


I recently decided that I want to start a small business and or non-profit unless I get a really busy or great job and I want to be able to afford to travel at some point. I hope I'm not being shallow here. I spent jr. high and part of high school reading travel guides, dreaming of adventures, just didn't know how to do it or believe that I could. I grew up in a mobile home park, and then had a parent get sick.

I was described a year or two ago as a rural personality with urban tastes. I have to preschedule any evening outings because of family right now, and make slightly above minimum wage, but am working on changing that.

Your friend who wants to be more than a friend already has a fiance?

As to advice, listen to Vamrat.

yeah in addition to clarifying that Anastasia, can you answer Achronos's first question about sexual attraction?

he might love you and that might feel good for one's ego but the real question is do you or can you return the sentiment?

I too had trouble understanding those sentences I have highlighted in addition to what tuesdayschild did.

and I agree, excellent advice Vamrat, especially his last paragraph Anastasia.
I have two friends (E and K) that are engaged and this guy (B) who is in love with me is another guy. Total of three people. The woman in the engaged couple knows another guy (4th person) who the thought of setting me up with had crossed her mind.

This guy that is in love with me, he is sort of cute, but I would be more attracted to him if he was more a bold guy, and a go-getter, less of a quiet little home somewhere with wife and kids and not much else that he needs in life. (Is it bad to say that about such an approach to life?)

The context of urban vs. rural was in asking if I seemed like I belonged more with an urban city guy or a rural country guy.

Thank you for clarifying, Anastasia1.

Regarding your friend B, you describe him as Roman Rite but accepting of eastern Christianity, a mildly OCD engineer (imagine that!) wanting the small town family life.  And you don't want him? Okay. I know a couple of cute young ladies that are looking for a stable, employed, devout Christian man. PM his contact info. If he plays his cards right, he might just find himself in a frivorce-proof marriage to a sweet little homemaker.

Do they like the desert and the southwest?

I'm always afraid guys like that won't care that much about changing the world and I'll give up my dream of being part of something extraordinary besides a church and our marriage for a guy who won't be a part of anything extraordinary besides a church and a marriage, and I'll look back on my life and regret that, and we will at best be like any other family but not disfunctional like some.
But family is extraordinary.  In fact, the most extraordinary thing you'll ever have a chance to be a part of in your life.
I spent half of my time for the last decade trying to have a career where I can change the world. Am I really to give that up for a guy who does not have any particular desire for either of us to do that?
I've spent my entire adult life attempting to better the world and if there is one thing I've learned is it isn't going to happen.  My best influence is one person at a time and mostly my family.  This is why I am still probably going to retire early and change careers.  Over two decades and the answer has been right in front of me almost the entire time...my kids.

Your priorities are yours and for your own reasons.  I don't know them so I can't say if I think they are good or bad.  You are the one who must make your own choices, but I know A LOT of women who regret career over family and a few who don't.
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« Reply #127 on: July 04, 2013, 11:41:51 PM »


My main point is that *loving yourself* is the reference to which we know if we love others. Can we agree that loving means wishing Good to the beloved? That is of foremost importance.


I read through the posts, and I do agree with you in some of them, but I think I have a problem with loving myself as a reference to our ability to love others. I do not think it is the reference. I would be interested in your justification (I have not seen it so far). I do think it is important not to hate yourself and to accept your failings in order to strive to be better. But this is not loving yourself.

I would like to go to a post of yours that made a big impression of me:

Now and then we find in the internet  videos, movies or songs that were not made by Orthodox or with an Orthodox intent but that convey some Orthodox values of aesthetical nature.

Here is a video that I think depicts beautifully the virtue of obedience:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMIOuPxhCVI

I never saw it as a virtue of obedience. I did see it as a depiction of motherhood. And I would include fatherhood in this. It is not a matter of obedience, but of stepping out into society and realizing our role in life.

It is not a matter of loving of oneself which would imply some importance to ourselves. It is a matter of sacrifice, even for those that we dislike.

In terms of dating, I am afraid that I am idealistic about it. At least for some it is your first experience to love someone more than yourself.

On the negative side, I realize that there is an extreme to this view point that I question myself on, idolatry, and I have posted in the past I would start a thread on this topic but I have not done so as of yet.
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« Reply #128 on: July 04, 2013, 11:42:40 PM »

I spent half of my time for the last decade trying to have a career where I can change the world. Am I really to give that up for a guy who does not have any particular desire for either of us to do that?
I've spent my entire adult life attempting to better the world and if there is one thing I've learned is it isn't going to happen.  My best influence is one person at a time and mostly my family.  This is why I am still probably going to retire early and change careers.  Over two decades and the answer has been right in front of me almost the entire time...my kids.

Your priorities are yours and for your own reasons.  I don't know them so I can't say if I think they are good or bad.  You are the one who must make your own choices, but I know A LOT of women who regret career over family and a few who don't.
I volunteered in a non-profit, and that organization changed the lives of numerous families, saving lives by access to the hospital, families by reducing financial stress, and reducing stress of the family during a super hard time. You don't change the world at once. You do it one day at a time, one person at a time. For those people, those families with sick kids, we did change the world.
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« Reply #129 on: July 04, 2013, 11:47:11 PM »

I spent half of my time for the last decade trying to have a career where I can change the world. Am I really to give that up for a guy who does not have any particular desire for either of us to do that?
I've spent my entire adult life attempting to better the world and if there is one thing I've learned is it isn't going to happen.  My best influence is one person at a time and mostly my family.  This is why I am still probably going to retire early and change careers.  Over two decades and the answer has been right in front of me almost the entire time...my kids.

Your priorities are yours and for your own reasons.  I don't know them so I can't say if I think they are good or bad.  You are the one who must make your own choices, but I know A LOT of women who regret career over family and a few who don't.
I volunteered in a non-profit, and that organization changed the lives of numerous families, saving lives by access to the hospital, families by reducing financial stress, and reducing stress of the family during a super hard time. You don't change the world at once. You do it one day at a time, one person at a time. For those people, those families with sick kids, we did change the world.
Awesome!
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« Reply #130 on: July 05, 2013, 12:06:50 AM »


I spent half of my time for the last decade trying to have a career where I can change the world. Am I really to give that up for a guy who does not have any particular desire for either of us to do that?

No. But on the same token, this is not a lifestyle issue. If you are going to make a difference in the world, you should be able to convince him unless it deals with politics and economics. In other words, there is no way you are going to convince me that free market capitalistic greed is good. You can convince me to do volunteer work to help those in need, etc.

If your cause is good and falls on deaf ears then try again, but you should give up when you decide it is hopeless (although it may not be). It is a tough choice.
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« Reply #131 on: July 05, 2013, 01:57:58 AM »

No. But on the same token, this is not a lifestyle issue. If you are going to make a difference in the world, you should be able to convince him unless it deals with politics and economics. In other words, there is no way you are going to convince me that free market capitalistic greed is good. You can convince me to do volunteer work to help those in need, etc.
I care way more that you vote than I do who or what you vote for. You are registered, right? If not, it is not too late to register.
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« Reply #132 on: July 05, 2013, 02:09:55 AM »

I spent half of my time for the last decade trying to have a career where I can change the world. Am I really to give that up for a guy who does not have any particular desire for either of us to do that?
I've spent my entire adult life attempting to better the world and if there is one thing I've learned is it isn't going to happen.  My best influence is one person at a time and mostly my family.  This is why I am still probably going to retire early and change careers.  Over two decades and the answer has been right in front of me almost the entire time...my kids.

Your priorities are yours and for your own reasons.  I don't know them so I can't say if I think they are good or bad.  You are the one who must make your own choices, but I know A LOT of women who regret career over family and a few who don't.
I volunteered in a non-profit, and that organization changed the lives of numerous families, saving lives by access to the hospital, families by reducing financial stress, and reducing stress of the family during a super hard time. You don't change the world at once. You do it one day at a time, one person at a time. For those people, those families with sick kids, we did change the world.
Awesome!
“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.” ― Margaret Mead

I'm all for family, but right now, I don't my priorities don't end at my home's doorstep. I want to make a splash with my life. Is it important to share that?
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« Reply #133 on: July 05, 2013, 02:36:46 AM »

Of course it is. Whatever it is that's important to you in your life is also what's important in your dating life, no? I mean, they're not completely separate spheres...
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« Reply #134 on: July 05, 2013, 02:51:13 AM »

I spent half of my time for the last decade trying to have a career where I can change the world. Am I really to give that up for a guy who does not have any particular desire for either of us to do that?
I've spent my entire adult life attempting to better the world and if there is one thing I've learned is it isn't going to happen.  My best influence is one person at a time and mostly my family.  This is why I am still probably going to retire early and change careers.  Over two decades and the answer has been right in front of me almost the entire time...my kids.

Your priorities are yours and for your own reasons.  I don't know them so I can't say if I think they are good or bad.  You are the one who must make your own choices, but I know A LOT of women who regret career over family and a few who don't.
I volunteered in a non-profit, and that organization changed the lives of numerous families, saving lives by access to the hospital, families by reducing financial stress, and reducing stress of the family during a super hard time. You don't change the world at once. You do it one day at a time, one person at a time. For those people, those families with sick kids, we did change the world.
Awesome!
“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.” ― Margaret Mead

I'm all for family, but right now, I don't my priorities don't end at my home's doorstep. I want to make a splash with my life. Is it important to share that?
I've provided as much for you as I can at this point.  I wish you the best.  The choices are for you to make alone.
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« Reply #135 on: July 05, 2013, 03:07:29 AM »

I don't get this whole glorified view of the family. Quite frankly, it makes no sense to me and I don't see how it's the greatest thing ever. I've grown up in a family and had to take care of my siblings all the time and it's only turned me off to the possibility of ever wanting a family.
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« Reply #136 on: July 05, 2013, 03:11:00 AM »

What you mean is 'get to know the other one more'.  She is already good friends with the first one.  

Getting to know a bit more about the other one is probably a good idea.  Right now your lack of knowledge about him is why this is still a balanced equation.  If you can change it from "guy I know/different lifestyle" vs "guy I don't know/same lifestyle" into "guy I know with different lifestyle" vs "guy I know with same lifestyle" then it gets a bit easier to decide.   Wink  Also, if you get to know him them it might show some unacceptable traits and then you still have current friend.

Also, you need to discern if the lifestyle choices the other one has are going to make things impossible.  It might be worth discussing these things with him.  I guess knowing what you mean by "lifestyle" is also important.  If these are immutable personality traits then there could be problems regardless of any promises to "change".
I'm doubt I will have the current friend. He and I had a fight, sort of, and I don't think he is interested in staying just friends with me unless it is something more. He's a nice guy, genuinely cares for me, wants a small town life with a family and has a little less ambition than I, small town, small company engineer/wanna be husband and eventually a father. He is definitively Roman rite, white guy, but accepting of eastern Christianity and stuff. One of my friends thinks he is a great guy, and worth keeping. He wants to eventually have four kids. (He is mildly OCD, and I am ADHD.) I do meet similar guys every once in a while, and on some level feel like that is what I am supposed to end up with, but I don't know if I would have to give up too much for that.

His fiance knows another guy whom I do not know much about, but let's say he may represent others as well. His dad is high up in a big company and this guy has a good job, and is friends with the more capitalist friend. (Don't know this particular guy's faith, but this friend is Catholic and knows I am Orthodox and religious.)

I recently decided that I want to start a small business and or non-profit unless I get a really busy or great job and I want to be able to afford to travel at some point. I hope I'm not being shallow here. I spent jr. high and part of high school reading travel guides, dreaming of adventures, just didn't know how to do it or believe that I could. I grew up in a mobile home park, and then had a parent get sick.

I was described a year or two ago as a rural personality with urban tastes. I have to preschedule any evening outings because of family right now, and make slightly above minimum wage, but am working on changing that.
My advice is first of all to drop anyone who has a fiancé. Secondly, you should only consider dating people of your own religion, (unless you want to convert to Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic or at least are comfortable attending RC or EC religious services). Thirdly, you marry the person you respect the most, and who you feel most comfortable with and believe would be the best husband for you and for the future children.
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« Reply #137 on: July 05, 2013, 09:08:27 AM »

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.

Such a wife will take off as soon as you hit a rough patch. If the only thing she gets out of it is spending your money, as soon as you're not bringing home the kind of bacon she wants, she'll move to a more profitable agreement with someone else.

We romantic fools who married for love draw on that love to make it through the hard times.
I see nowhere in what James said that his wife would only be in the marriage to spend money. She would have to work in the event he gets injured. She takes care of him like a mother and in return she can spend his money. I don't like the implications of it personally, but if that is what they decided as a couple before being married then whose to say that is wrong?

Seems like you are the one who has the problem with selling off the commodity when the love runs dry and buying another to gratify your narcissism.
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« Reply #138 on: July 05, 2013, 09:08:27 AM »

orthonorm's deliberate unclarity.
While it is a deliberate posture, this unclarity can bring clarity. He makes you think with his intricate maze-like fragments. There have been many posts he has made that I cannot comprehend what he is writing, but I'm not going to be frustrated or angry about it, but it does require some work, if you are willing to put forth the effort. You keep axe grinding without putting into any thought of what he has to say. Again I think too many of you on this board are so adamant about ethics that you miss what is actually being discussed.

Really this forum is becoming somewhat of a bore with the moralizing of Orthodoxy.

You're wrong.

I consider orthonorm to be pretentious and often irritating, but I won't claim he's not also sometimes entertaining and informative.
See there you go again with this whole wrong business. And pretentious? LOL no.
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« Reply #139 on: July 05, 2013, 09:08:27 AM »

I spent half of my time for the last decade trying to have a career where I can change the world. Am I really to give that up for a guy who does not have any particular desire for either of us to do that?
Anastasia, what are you doing in order to change the world? Just curious what your work is. And ignore Kerdy, please. He is becoming increasingly trollish in his behavior, I cannot even begin to approach his ideology without wanting to profusely vomit.

I am not sure how many bold and ambitious men you will find that don't come with some level of insecurity with your own independence and ambition. Personally I have already accepted that women will be making more income and maybe have more positions in power than men in the future anyway, however I have my own reservations with further feminist encroachment. Maybe the object here is that you think you want isn't what you really want. But really, this is where you need to start dating and letting these things be revealed to you. I find more things about myself when I meet with different women and understand more fully what I truly desire. As of right now, I am very reclusive so I haven't done much of any dating since I moved back in May, I am just not ready to start dating again.

I'm sure you can find plenty of supportive guys out there on your dream.
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« Reply #140 on: July 05, 2013, 09:27:51 AM »

Hi Opus!

The reasoning is quite simple. A big part of what love is, is whishing good to other people. How will you give what is good to other people if you don't even know what that is for yourself? When Jesus tells us that a blind person cannot guide the blind, that includes having your own personal experience of what is good and of what is love. If you don't have that, you don't know what love is and very probably is just imposing an abstraction onto the other person. Also Jesus taught us that if you can't love what you see, you won't be able to love that which you can't see. That's true when we talk about our neighbor-God, but also from "ourself-our neighbor", because we cannot really see their feelings, see their hearts, literally be in their shoes. But we can see our feelings, hearts and be in our own shoes. A lot of people who insist too much on the "other" simply can't stand themselves, to be on their own shoes. Nothing is more visible to you than yourself. Than your neighbor. Then God. And hopefully, you will one day see God inhabitting in yourself. But if you never learned to look to you in a loving way, you won't see Him there even if He is.

A lot of people don't get any dates for the simple fact that not even them know what is good for themselves. People love you as much as you love yourself. It's true that the perversion of that makes sick self-worshippers some of the most popular people in the world. But the misuse of something is no excuse to its demonization.

If you want to be loved by a spiritually and psychologically normal person, you must have a spiritually and psychological healthy love for yourself. Wish good for yourself, know and respect both your personal limitations and your personal needs, acknowledge your sins and struggle against them, acknowledge your strengths and virtues *without* pride or vanity. Learn who you are, what your character is. Don't worship yourself, that is what egotism is and that is much of what is intended to be said when so many talk of "self-love" as a bad thing.



My main point is that *loving yourself* is the reference to which we know if we love others. Can we agree that loving means wishing Good to the beloved? That is of foremost importance.


I read through the posts, and I do agree with you in some of them, but I think I have a problem with loving myself as a reference to our ability to love others. I do not think it is the reference. I would be interested in your justification (I have not seen it so far). I do think it is important not to hate yourself and to accept your failings in order to strive to be better. But this is not loving yourself.

I would like to go to a post of yours that made a big impression of me:

Now and then we find in the internet  videos, movies or songs that were not made by Orthodox or with an Orthodox intent but that convey some Orthodox values of aesthetical nature.

Here is a video that I think depicts beautifully the virtue of obedience:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMIOuPxhCVI

I never saw it as a virtue of obedience. I did see it as a depiction of motherhood. And I would include fatherhood in this. It is not a matter of obedience, but of stepping out into society and realizing our role in life.

It is not a matter of loving of oneself which would imply some importance to ourselves. It is a matter of sacrifice, even for those that we dislike.

In terms of dating, I am afraid that I am idealistic about it. At least for some it is your first experience to love someone more than yourself.

On the negative side, I realize that there is an extreme to this view point that I question myself on, idolatry, and I have posted in the past I would start a thread on this topic but I have not done so as of yet.
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« Reply #141 on: July 05, 2013, 09:39:57 AM »

Who knew one could find such unOrthodox advice in such a plentiful amount on an Orthodox forum.  At least most Orthodox don't actually live this stuff out in real life.
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« Reply #142 on: July 05, 2013, 09:45:27 AM »

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.

Such a wife will take off as soon as you hit a rough patch. If the only thing she gets out of it is spending your money, as soon as you're not bringing home the kind of bacon she wants, she'll move to a more profitable agreement with someone else.

We romantic fools who married for love draw on that love to make it through the hard times.
I see nowhere in what James said that his wife would only be in the marriage to spend money. She would have to work in the event he gets injured. She takes care of him like a mother and in return she can spend his money. I don't like the implications of it personally, but if that is what they decided as a couple before being married then whose to say that is wrong?

Read his post again, then. 'You keep house, put out when I feel like it, stay out of my way when I don't, and get to spend the money I make. But if I don't make any money, you work to make it, and do all the rest too.' Good luck finding anyone stupid enough to agree to such terms.

And the whole injury thing? One's livelihood is in much greater danger from unemployment than injury. But James is still at an age to believe that such nasty things happen to other people. You should know better.

Seems like you are the one who has the problem with selling off the commodity when the love runs dry and buying another to gratify your narcissism.

Huh? Huh

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« Reply #143 on: July 05, 2013, 09:57:49 AM »

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« Reply #144 on: July 05, 2013, 09:04:11 PM »

LOL "love." You guys crack me up.

I don't see why "love" matters so much. I could "love" someone but be completely incompatible with them or they could not be what I want at all. I don't want a wife that I "love," I want a wife that is compatible with my expectations for the marriage.

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.
James, I know this may come as a shock to you, but you do realize women are living, breathing, feeling, actual people, don't you?  They are just as real as men with dreams, goals, plans, needs...just like us.

Now, once you pick yourself up from falling out of your chair, go find a woman and speak to her like a real person.  You may even have a real conversation.
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« Reply #145 on: July 05, 2013, 10:08:26 PM »

LOL "love." You guys crack me up.

I don't see why "love" matters so much. I could "love" someone but be completely incompatible with them or they could not be what I want at all. I don't want a wife that I "love," I want a wife that is compatible with my expectations for the marriage.

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.
James, I know this may come as a shock to you, but you do realize women are living, breathing, feeling, actual people, don't you?  They are just as real as men with dreams, goals, plans, needs...just like us.

Now, once you pick yourself up from falling out of your chair, go find a woman and speak to her like a real person.  You may even have a real conversation.

What is it with people here always acting like I don't consider women people? I never said they aren't. The thing is, I don't get "dreams, goals, plans, needs," and "love" and all of that other stuff that everyone fantasizes about. I'm one of the most emotionally detached persons you will ever meet. I don't care about "loving" a woman or if she "loves" me. If we do fall in love, that's good. But that's not my primary concern. My primary concern is finding someone compatible who can fulfill my expectations for marriage and whose expectations I can meet. I want an efficient marriage; not a loving one. I want a wife that can help me in life, regardless of whether or not she loves me. I'd rather be married to someone efficient who I absolutely hate than someone inept who I love.
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« Reply #146 on: July 05, 2013, 10:25:43 PM »

LOL "love." You guys crack me up.

I don't see why "love" matters so much. I could "love" someone but be completely incompatible with them or they could not be what I want at all. I don't want a wife that I "love," I want a wife that is compatible with my expectations for the marriage.

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.
This is such a pitiful post. Cry

Agreed... You gotta love your wife...  I'd rather love my wife than have any help in life from her at all.
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« Reply #147 on: July 05, 2013, 10:32:35 PM »

LOL "love." You guys crack me up.

I don't see why "love" matters so much. I could "love" someone but be completely incompatible with them or they could not be what I want at all. I don't want a wife that I "love," I want a wife that is compatible with my expectations for the marriage.

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.
James, I know this may come as a shock to you, but you do realize women are living, breathing, feeling, actual people, don't you?  They are just as real as men with dreams, goals, plans, needs...just like us.

Now, once you pick yourself up from falling out of your chair, go find a woman and speak to her like a real person.  You may even have a real conversation.

What is it with people here always acting like I don't consider women people? I never said they aren't. The thing is, I don't get "dreams, goals, plans, needs," and "love" and all of that other stuff that everyone fantasizes about. I'm one of the most emotionally detached persons you will ever meet. I don't care about "loving" a woman or if she "loves" me. If we do fall in love, that's good. But that's not my primary concern. My primary concern is finding someone compatible who can fulfill my expectations for marriage and whose expectations I can meet. I want an efficient marriage; not a loving one. I want a wife that can help me in life, regardless of whether or not she loves me. I'd rather be married to someone efficient who I absolutely hate than someone inept who I love.

Hahaaaaahaa teenagers!

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« Reply #148 on: July 05, 2013, 10:41:49 PM »

LOL "love." You guys crack me up.

I don't see why "love" matters so much. I could "love" someone but be completely incompatible with them or they could not be what I want at all. I don't want a wife that I "love," I want a wife that is compatible with my expectations for the marriage.

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.
James, I know this may come as a shock to you, but you do realize women are living, breathing, feeling, actual people, don't you?  They are just as real as men with dreams, goals, plans, needs...just like us.

Now, once you pick yourself up from falling out of your chair, go find a woman and speak to her like a real person.  You may even have a real conversation.

What is it with people here always acting like I don't consider women people? I never said they aren't. The thing is, I don't get "dreams, goals, plans, needs," and "love" and all of that other stuff that everyone fantasizes about. I'm one of the most emotionally detached persons you will ever meet. I don't care about "loving" a woman or if she "loves" me. If we do fall in love, that's good. But that's not my primary concern. My primary concern is finding someone compatible who can fulfill my expectations for marriage and whose expectations I can meet. I want an efficient marriage; not a loving one. I want a wife that can help me in life, regardless of whether or not she loves me. I'd rather be married to someone efficient who I absolutely hate than someone inept who I love.

Understand completely what you are saying, but you know brother, there is something much more about all of that done in love.  

A wife that WANTS to give you children because she loves you, and you want children with her because you love her....   All of the things done in love, rather than expectation....

For instance, my children expect me to feed them, give them clothes, shelter, and protection.  I expect them to do chores, respect my wife and I, work hard in school/study, and have faith.   When we add it all up, the most tender moments is the BOND, which is love.  The kiss goodnight and telling them that you "love them", gives credence for everything else you do for them.  It is the assurance of true acceptance. The bond of love means everything.

With a spouse, it is the same thing, and even stronger.  The bond of love, mutual trust, and true care for one another gives beauty in every sacrifice and joy done together.   True love means you can look over, and know that you'd take care of your spouse even if she became a paraplegic... You know you'd be there through the thick and the thin, even if they were not able to function at all.  Love also means that you'd honestly die for your spouse or your children. (As Christ died for us)

The function of a marriage is based in love.   The woman who you spend the rest of your life with, you should love her as yourself.  She will be one flesh with you... Eastern Orthodoxy adorns those being married with the crown of martyrs, symbolizing the death of your old lives, and joined together.   Love will make this sacrifice of self, one of the most joyous occasions in your life.
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« Reply #149 on: July 05, 2013, 11:40:43 PM »

Hi Fabio,

I think we agree on the bottom line, but I also think we disagree on some of the details. Not a bad thing since it is aimed at the same concept. I hope to be able to write tomorrow. (It is best to reflect whether there is any value in nitpicking.)

Take care.

Hi Opus!

The reasoning is quite simple. A big part of what love is, is whishing good to other people. How will you give what is good to other people if you don't even know what that is for yourself? When Jesus tells us that a blind person cannot guide the blind, that includes having your own personal experience of what is good and of what is love. If you don't have that, you don't know what love is and very probably is just imposing an abstraction onto the other person. Also Jesus taught us that if you can't love what you see, you won't be able to love that which you can't see. That's true when we talk about our neighbor-God, but also from "ourself-our neighbor", because we cannot really see their feelings, see their hearts, literally be in their shoes. But we can see our feelings, hearts and be in our own shoes. A lot of people who insist too much on the "other" simply can't stand themselves, to be on their own shoes. Nothing is more visible to you than yourself. Than your neighbor. Then God. And hopefully, you will one day see God inhabitting in yourself. But if you never learned to look to you in a loving way, you won't see Him there even if He is.

A lot of people don't get any dates for the simple fact that not even them know what is good for themselves. People love you as much as you love yourself. It's true that the perversion of that makes sick self-worshippers some of the most popular people in the world. But the misuse of something is no excuse to its demonization.

If you want to be loved by a spiritually and psychologically normal person, you must have a spiritually and psychological healthy love for yourself. Wish good for yourself, know and respect both your personal limitations and your personal needs, acknowledge your sins and struggle against them, acknowledge your strengths and virtues *without* pride or vanity. Learn who you are, what your character is. Don't worship yourself, that is what egotism is and that is much of what is intended to be said when so many talk of "self-love" as a bad thing.



My main point is that *loving yourself* is the reference to which we know if we love others. Can we agree that loving means wishing Good to the beloved? That is of foremost importance.


I read through the posts, and I do agree with you in some of them, but I think I have a problem with loving myself as a reference to our ability to love others. I do not think it is the reference. I would be interested in your justification (I have not seen it so far). I do think it is important not to hate yourself and to accept your failings in order to strive to be better. But this is not loving yourself.

I would like to go to a post of yours that made a big impression of me:

Now and then we find in the internet  videos, movies or songs that were not made by Orthodox or with an Orthodox intent but that convey some Orthodox values of aesthetical nature.

Here is a video that I think depicts beautifully the virtue of obedience:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMIOuPxhCVI

I never saw it as a virtue of obedience. I did see it as a depiction of motherhood. And I would include fatherhood in this. It is not a matter of obedience, but of stepping out into society and realizing our role in life.

It is not a matter of loving of oneself which would imply some importance to ourselves. It is a matter of sacrifice, even for those that we dislike.

In terms of dating, I am afraid that I am idealistic about it. At least for some it is your first experience to love someone more than yourself.

On the negative side, I realize that there is an extreme to this view point that I question myself on, idolatry, and I have posted in the past I would start a thread on this topic but I have not done so as of yet.
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« Reply #150 on: July 06, 2013, 01:10:05 AM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever.

Then do as you like/want, stop asking for others advice, and live with the penalties.  If you want the easy way rather than the correct way, you can do that all by yourself without the influence of others.
Is that what you think, that the way you present here is always the correct way?

I'm confused.  Are you suggesting she date men whom she has no intention of marrying?
No, not at all. Just pointing out that whatever way Kerdy thinks, he presents his opinion as if it is the one correct way.
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« Reply #151 on: July 06, 2013, 01:19:32 AM »

No Liza, my point is that dating can lead to different outcomes. Our dear JamesR may end up dating several women and may decide monasticism is more of his calling.

Again I think that Anastasia1 should go on some dates and have some fun with it. This notion that if you could see yourself possibly marrying the other person on a first date is ridiculous. It may take quite some time until it is revealed if you could possibly marry someone.

I think folks on this forum are really advocating a form of prearranged marriage than anything else. You know this sort of checklist for what the other person needs to fulfill, which to me is a removal of any sort of romance. It's like online dating. I remember trying to register on eHarmony for some laughs and it seriously took me well over 30 minutes to create a profile because you had to be so specific on exactly what you are looking for. I think it is sheer insanity to project a fantasy of what we want in another person to fit in our box. It is too far removed from actually engaging with a person, and you really start to make people turn into standardized tests.

"No I can't really fall in love with you unless you have a credit score of 735, have an index finger length of 4.65", and like diet Snapple iced tea", do you see how absurd this sounds? And this is the future of dating? How frightening. And you are doing the same here "Well I can't fall in love or dive into the passion of romance unless I know I want to marry you.", but again that is nonsense.

As for me, I would rather be swirled up in the mystery of romantic love with no pragmatism. There is an inherent risk with romance that I find to be absolutely thrilling, especially with passion. I don't believe that love should be a checklist of what qualities another person should have nor do I think there is a measurable goal of marriage, either. Why are these requisites to love? They are not. I may very well be in love with another person that I may not actually see myself marrying, perhaps we cannot unify ourselves to be one person and we have divergent personalities or something.
But are we not called to reign in even our passion and submit it to a reason informed by our Orthodox faith? What you advocate sounds too much like just letting our passions blow us where they will. That, to me, is the antithesis of the Orthodox way.
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« Reply #152 on: July 06, 2013, 01:26:48 AM »

I spent half of my time for the last decade trying to have a career where I can change the world. Am I really to give that up for a guy who does not have any particular desire for either of us to do that?
Anastasia, what are you doing in order to change the world? Just curious what your work is. And ignore Kerdy, please. He is becoming increasingly trollish in his behavior, I cannot even begin to approach his ideology without wanting to profusely vomit.
You want to talk about being trollish, Achronos?
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« Reply #153 on: July 06, 2013, 01:32:08 AM »

LOL "love." You guys crack me up.

I don't see why "love" matters so much. I could "love" someone but be completely incompatible with them or they could not be what I want at all. I don't want a wife that I "love," I want a wife that is compatible with my expectations for the marriage.

I just want a wife to help me complete chores, upkeep the house, raise children, satisfy my male urges, and possibly work if I ever get injured and have to take time off. In return for this, I work and she gets to spend my money. I could care less if we love each other. To me, marriage is more of a mutual agreement that benefits us; not some romanticized "love" thing.
James, I know this may come as a shock to you, but you do realize women are living, breathing, feeling, actual people, don't you?  They are just as real as men with dreams, goals, plans, needs...just like us.

Now, once you pick yourself up from falling out of your chair, go find a woman and speak to her like a real person.  You may even have a real conversation.

What is it with people here always acting like I don't consider women people? I never said they aren't. The thing is, I don't get "dreams, goals, plans, needs," and "love" and all of that other stuff that everyone fantasizes about. I'm one of the most emotionally detached persons you will ever meet. I don't care about "loving" a woman or if she "loves" me. If we do fall in love, that's good. But that's not my primary concern. My primary concern is finding someone compatible who can fulfill my expectations for marriage and whose expectations I can meet. I want an efficient marriage; not a loving one. I want a wife that can help me in life, regardless of whether or not she loves me. I'd rather be married to someone efficient who I absolutely hate than someone inept who I love.
Wait until you're 26, then tell us what you think. I'd be willing to bet your opinions will be totally different then. Forgive the ad hominem, but this issue of marriage is something you can only learn with age, for it entails much more than just a rational analysis of things. You actually have to experience life to know what you're talking about with marriage.
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« Reply #154 on: July 06, 2013, 02:03:31 AM »

What is it with people here always acting like I don't consider women people? I never said they aren't.

What you post.  That is what’s with it.  It’s one thing to understand the difference between the roles of husband and wife according to Christian teaching.  It’s another to twist that teaching into something it was never intended to be.  Statements like what you have provided is the reason when people like myself speak of the roles, duties and responsibilities within the family of the husband and wife, we are received with a knee jerk reaction of, “I’m not a door mate” foolery.

The thing is, I don't get "dreams, goals, plans, needs," and "love" and all of that other stuff that everyone fantasizes about.

Some people fantasize, others simply want to complete our purpose as best as we can.  I honestly do not know what to say in response to you lack of understanding in regard to dreams and goals.  You should understand needs clear enough.  Love, well brother, that is something life is going to have to teach you.

I'm one of the most emotionally detached persons you will ever meet.

I doubt it.  I used to be a different person than I am today.  In my youth I had almost no emotion, sympathy or anything else which I now consider quality characteristics.

I don't care about "loving" a woman or if she "loves" me.

Yes you do.  It is clear in your previous posts.  What you say now is defensive for your emotional protection.

But that's not my primary concern. My primary concern is finding someone compatible who can fulfill my expectations for marriage and whose expectations I can meet.
Good luck with what you posted here.

I want an efficient marriage; not a loving one.

Those aren’t built to last.

I want a wife that can help me in life, regardless of whether or not she loves me.

If she doesn’t love you, she won’t help you.

I'd rather be married to someone efficient who I absolutely hate than someone inept who I love.

Why not both?




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« Reply #155 on: July 06, 2013, 02:05:50 AM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever.

Then do as you like/want, stop asking for others advice, and live with the penalties.  If you want the easy way rather than the correct way, you can do that all by yourself without the influence of others.
Is that what you think, that the way you present here is always the correct way?

I'm confused.  Are you suggesting she date men whom she has no intention of marrying?
No, not at all. Just pointing out that whatever way Kerdy thinks, he presents his opinion as if it is the one correct way.

...like most people do.  You for instance.
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« Reply #156 on: July 06, 2013, 02:11:10 AM »

The only woman I ever loved broke my heart and I've never loved since then and still frequently dream about her and closed up my heart and became a miserable hermit who hides behind the tough-guy emotionless façade Sad I don't want to love again; it hurts.
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« Reply #157 on: July 06, 2013, 02:12:42 AM »

The only woman I ever loved broke my heart and I've never loved since then and still frequently dream about her and closed up my heart and became a miserable hermit who hides behind the tough-guy emotionless façade Sad I don't want to love again; it hurts.

Welcome to life. Grin  Most people have experienced this.
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« Reply #158 on: July 06, 2013, 02:28:47 AM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever.

Then do as you like/want, stop asking for others advice, and live with the penalties.  If you want the easy way rather than the correct way, you can do that all by yourself without the influence of others.
Is that what you think, that the way you present here is always the correct way?

I'm confused.  Are you suggesting she date men whom she has no intention of marrying?
No, not at all. Just pointing out that whatever way Kerdy thinks, he presents his opinion as if it is the one correct way.

...like most people do.  You for instance.
I'm not talking about most people. I'm talking about you.
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« Reply #159 on: July 06, 2013, 02:30:13 AM »

The only woman I ever loved broke my heart and I've never loved since then and still frequently dream about her and closed up my heart and became a miserable hermit who hides behind the tough-guy emotionless façade Sad I don't want to love again; it hurts.
Ya know, the only way to really grow in life is to risk getting hurt.
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« Reply #160 on: July 06, 2013, 02:50:07 AM »

3) Date only those you feel are potential mates, no one else. That is sort of the point of dating, yes?
No offense intended, but worst dating advice ever.

Then do as you like/want, stop asking for others advice, and live with the penalties.  If you want the easy way rather than the correct way, you can do that all by yourself without the influence of others.
Is that what you think, that the way you present here is always the correct way?

I'm confused.  Are you suggesting she date men whom she has no intention of marrying?
No, not at all. Just pointing out that whatever way Kerdy thinks, he presents his opinion as if it is the one correct way.

...like most people do.  You for instance.
I'm not talking about most people. I'm talking about you.

Alrighty then.
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« Reply #161 on: July 06, 2013, 03:00:39 AM »

I want to ask her to marry me. I know it'll result in failure, but she's going to be moving next year for college and I don't want to live in regret forever wondering what could have happened if I asked.
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« Reply #162 on: July 06, 2013, 06:20:46 AM »

The only woman I ever loved broke my heart and I've never loved since then and still frequently dream about her and closed up my heart and became a miserable hermit who hides behind the tough-guy emotionless façade Sad I don't want to love again; it hurts.

Oh, the drama. Roll Eyes

Being an adult is pretty much about going ahead and doing things that you don't like because they're right. Manning up ain't easy.
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« Reply #163 on: July 06, 2013, 08:37:41 AM »

The only woman I ever loved broke my heart and I've never loved since then and still frequently dream about her and closed up my heart and became a miserable hermit who hides behind the tough-guy emotionless façade Sad I don't want to love again; it hurts.

Oh, the drama. Roll Eyes

Being an adult is pretty much about going ahead and doing things that you don't like because they're right. Manning up ain't easy.
So you don't have a heart, got it.

Heartbreak is painful stuff, soul crushing, and you tell him to man up.

Ridiculous.
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« Reply #164 on: July 06, 2013, 10:55:47 AM »

As the king of love Phil Collins would say, you don't really get completely over heartbreak.
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« Reply #165 on: July 06, 2013, 12:43:24 PM »

The only woman I ever loved broke my heart and I've never loved since then and still frequently dream about her and closed up my heart and became a miserable hermit who hides behind the tough-guy emotionless façade Sad I don't want to love again; it hurts.

It happens sometimes. Just wait a little...  I've had fairly morbid feelings in the moment, though they weaken over time. I've even come across similar sentiments in literature, which makes me feel an ounce less like a nutball.
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« Reply #166 on: July 06, 2013, 01:09:40 PM »

The only woman I ever loved broke my heart and I've never loved since then and still frequently dream about her and closed up my heart and became a miserable hermit who hides behind the tough-guy emotionless façade Sad I don't want to love again; it hurts.

Oh, the drama. Roll Eyes

Being an adult is pretty much about going ahead and doing things that you don't like because they're right. Manning up ain't easy.
So you don't have a heart, got it.

Heartbreak is painful stuff, soul crushing, and you tell him to man up.

Ridiculous.
How long has it been since James experienced his heartbreak? If it happened just yesterday, then you are right that Arachne is being crassly insensitive to his need to grieve. If the heartbreak occurred a couple of years ago, then Arachne is right that James is hanging on to his grief for far too long and for his own emotional and spiritual health needs to put the past behind him and move forward with his life.
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« Reply #167 on: July 06, 2013, 01:41:41 PM »

The scriptures clearly tell us to love our wives.

(All esv)
Ephesians 5:25 - Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
Ephesians 5:28 - In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
Colossians 3:19 - Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them.


Love should exist in a marriage, not just mutual benefits.
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« Reply #168 on: July 06, 2013, 03:04:41 PM »

The only woman I ever loved broke my heart and I've never loved since then and still frequently dream about her and closed up my heart and became a miserable hermit who hides behind the tough-guy emotionless façade Sad I don't want to love again; it hurts.

Oh, the drama. Roll Eyes

Being an adult is pretty much about going ahead and doing things that you don't like because they're right. Manning up ain't easy.
So you don't have a heart, got it.

Heartbreak is painful stuff, soul crushing, and you tell him to man up.

Ridiculous.

I don't have much time for teenage tantrums and mountains out of molehills, that's true.
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« Reply #169 on: July 06, 2013, 03:12:11 PM »

The only woman I ever loved broke my heart and I've never loved since then and still frequently dream about her and closed up my heart and became a miserable hermit who hides behind the tough-guy emotionless façade Sad I don't want to love again; it hurts.

Oh, the drama. Roll Eyes

Being an adult is pretty much about going ahead and doing things that you don't like because they're right. Manning up ain't easy.
So you don't have a heart, got it.

Heartbreak is painful stuff, soul crushing, and you tell him to man up.

Ridiculous.

Teenagers. Smiley
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« Reply #170 on: July 06, 2013, 03:15:16 PM »

Geez. I'm not going to tell you people about the dreams I had in my 30s about lost loves, that's for sure!  Kiss
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« Reply #171 on: July 06, 2013, 03:18:09 PM »

The only woman I ever loved broke my heart and I've never loved since then and still frequently dream about her and closed up my heart and became a miserable hermit who hides behind the tough-guy emotionless façade Sad I don't want to love again; it hurts.

Oh, the drama. Roll Eyes

Being an adult is pretty much about going ahead and doing things that you don't like because they're right. Manning up ain't easy.
So you don't have a heart, got it.

Heartbreak is painful stuff, soul crushing, and you tell him to man up.

Ridiculous.
How long has it been since James experienced his heartbreak? If it happened just yesterday, then you are right that Arachne is being crassly insensitive to his need to grieve. If the heartbreak occurred a couple of years ago, then Arachne is right that James is hanging on to his grief for far too long and for his own emotional and spiritual health needs to put the past behind him and move forward with his life.
BTW, many more years of growth will give James the perspective he needs to understand Arachne's advice correctly. A breakup of a high school romance, which is very likely to be just as superficial and immature as those involved in it, is really nothing compared to the untimely death of a spouse or, even worse, a nasty divorce with custody battles.
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« Reply #172 on: July 06, 2013, 03:20:41 PM »

How long has it been since James experienced his heartbreak? If it happened just yesterday, then you are right that Arachne is being crassly insensitive to his need to grieve. If the heartbreak occurred a couple of years ago, then Arachne is right that James is hanging on to his grief for far too long and for his own emotional and spiritual health needs to put the past behind him and move forward with his life.
I believe Arachne is operating under the ideology that people are seen merely as objects and tools, and she can use them for whatever degree in her selfishness. I already chastised her narcissism in another thread, so I'm not doing it here.

What's that saying? Love is like a puzzle and when you are in love all the pieces fit together but when your heart gets broken it takes time to get it all back together.

For some people they may never get it back together and I have been told people need to move forward with leaving all the pieces behind them. But again I think we are assuming too much here. If you have truly loved and truly had some serious heart crushing, you don't really get over it. Sure you can move on, but it isn't the same. Not only does our perception become askewed but we also have that feeling of something ripped out of us on the inside. Everything related to experience is completely covered in heartbreak. As Christians I would think we be more acutely aware of this, just look at our religion. All love is inherently broken, you know we broke love on the cross.

If you had been someone else's missing puzzle piece for years, and you become what they desire, but also at the same time they are your missing piece and it's gone...that is a tremendous loss. You become fragmented and disillusioned. You still have to deal with the past as well as the potentiality of the future, but also our identity has changed with this heartbreak. In the relationship, if JamesR is the subject he takes up the idenity as of that what the other, girlfriend/wife/whatever, desires. Now when this girlfriend rejects James, he becomes radically emasculated. The breakdown of no longer being the subject of the other's desire creates instability and some form of insanity, then you have existential created anxiety about why the other didn't want you and so on and so forth. Then you pretend that you have rationalized your heartbreak later on, but you have a completely different identity and your conception of the world without having your beloved has changed.

But even me writing in words is not enough on the phenomenology of this, it requires poetry to best describe.
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« Reply #173 on: July 06, 2013, 03:29:25 PM »

How long has it been since James experienced his heartbreak? If it happened just yesterday, then you are right that Arachne is being crassly insensitive to his need to grieve. If the heartbreak occurred a couple of years ago, then Arachne is right that James is hanging on to his grief for far too long and for his own emotional and spiritual health needs to put the past behind him and move forward with his life.
I believe Arachne is operating under the ideology that people are seen merely as objects and tools, and she can use them for whatever degree in her selfishness. I already chastised her narcissism in another thread, so I'm not doing it here.

Both in that other thread and here, I'm wondering what on earth you are going on about.

James is a teenager and there's no known cure. I'd ask what your excuse is, but I suspect it already.
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« Reply #174 on: July 06, 2013, 03:35:13 PM »

James, you will get over it in time, believe me.  Until then:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soDZBW-1P04
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« Reply #175 on: July 06, 2013, 03:40:54 PM »

How long has it been since James experienced his heartbreak? If it happened just yesterday, then you are right that Arachne is being crassly insensitive to his need to grieve. If the heartbreak occurred a couple of years ago, then Arachne is right that James is hanging on to his grief for far too long and for his own emotional and spiritual health needs to put the past behind him and move forward with his life.
I believe Arachne is operating under the ideology that people are seen merely as objects and tools, and she can use them for whatever degree in her selfishness. I already chastised her narcissism in another thread, so I'm not doing it here.
Really? Huh I see no evidence that you chastised Arachne for anything prior to this thread. In truth, ISTM from what little I've seen here that she's sharing a sound point of view shaped by life experience--after all, her profile says that she's my age and married--and that you're the one engaging in the narcissism that has long been your calling card on this forum.

What's that saying? Love is like a puzzle and when you are in love all the pieces fit together but when your heart gets broken it takes time to get it all back together.
True, but there's a huge difference between the breakup of a high school fling and the agonies one will experience in the end of an adult relationship.

For some people they may never get it back together and I have been told people need to move forward with leaving all the pieces behind them. But again I think we are assuming too much here. If you have truly loved and truly had some serious heart crushing, you don't really get over it. Sure you can move on, but it isn't the same. Not only does our perception become askewed but we also have that feeling of something ripped out of us on the inside. Everything related to experience is completely covered in heartbreak. As Christians I would think we be more acutely aware of this, just look at our religion. All love is inherently broken, you know we broke love on the cross.
But how mature and how deep can a high school romance really be? It only took me visiting my old high school two years after I had graduated to see how immature high schoolers are. Are teenage children--yes, they are still children--really capable of the maturity of mind and heart necessary to really experience the depths of true love between a man and a woman? James really hasn't experienced anything yet.

If you had been someone else's missing puzzle piece for years, and you become what they desire, but also at the same time they are your missing piece and it's gone...that is a tremendous loss. You become fragmented and disillusioned. You still have to deal with the past as well as the potentiality of the future, but also our identity has changed with this heartbreak. In the relationship, if JamesR is the subject he takes up the idenity as of that what the other, girlfriend/wife/whatever, desires. Now when this girlfriend rejects James, he becomes radically emasculated. The breakdown of no longer being the subject of the other's desire creates instability and some form of insanity, then you have existential created anxiety about why the other didn't want you and so on and so forth. Then you pretend that you have rationalized your heartbreak later on, but you have a completely different identity and your conception of the world without having your beloved has changed.
James is still a kid. He will grow up and develop a much deeper perspective on relationships. This isn't something he can acquire just from reading a book. He needs life experience.
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« Reply #176 on: July 06, 2013, 03:49:46 PM »

Pain happens to everyone at times. It can go away over the years. I remember times I thought I would never live through the upset, but I did. It's not easy, but things will change.
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« Reply #177 on: July 06, 2013, 03:53:35 PM »

I don't have much time for teenage tantrums and mountains out of molehills, that's true.
Your choice in music says otherwise, considering you spend time on those two things.

Maybe in manning up, JamesR can grow up to be as cold and heartless as yourself. Again you are narcissistic.

Teenage tears sting my eyeballs.
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« Reply #178 on: July 06, 2013, 03:53:35 PM »

BTW, many more years of growth will give James the perspective he needs to understand Arachne's advice correctly. A breakup of a high school romance, which is very likely to be just as superficial and immature as those involved in it, is really nothing compared to the untimely death of a spouse or, even worse, a nasty divorce with custody battles.
Yeah, I can't believe an 18 year old has real emotions and feelings.

I know it's very difficult Peter to understand there is much more than IF A > B, THEN A ← A − B.