OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 26, 2014, 02:54:00 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Grammar - Trisagion  (Read 1457 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 18,352


"Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee..."


WWW
« on: June 23, 2013, 10:15:35 PM »

While I was pretty good with Greek while in seminary, I've lost a lot of it over the years.  Since there are many here who haven't, I thought I'd throw this question out. 

Quote
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός, Ἅγιος Ἰσχυρός, Ἅγιος Ἀθάνατος, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς.

This is the EO version of the Trisagion; the OO version includes a Christological phrase before ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς to make clear that we address it to Christ and not to the Trinity, as the EO do. 

Grammatically, is this addressed to one person or to more than one?  The Copts just adopted the Greek for this, and yet they address it to one person.  My understanding of the grammar is that it's directed to one person and not to three.  I'm interested in the grammar; theology and polemics can be done elsewhere (and if they have already been done, just let me know, and I'll look for that).  Are the Copts "doing it wrong" grammatically, or does the Trinitarian interpretation of the EO come from somewhere other than grammar?     
Logged

The Mor has spoken. Let his word endure unto the ages of ages.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2013, 10:27:04 PM »

While I was pretty good with Greek while in seminary, I've lost a lot of it over the years.  Since there are many here who haven't, I thought I'd throw this question out. 

Quote
Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός, Ἅγιος Ἰσχυρός, Ἅγιος Ἀθάνατος, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς.

This is the EO version of the Trisagion; the OO version includes a Christological phrase before ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς to make clear that we address it to Christ and not to the Trinity, as the EO do. 

Grammatically, is this addressed to one person or to more than one?  The Copts just adopted the Greek for this, and yet they address it to one person.  My understanding of the grammar is that it's directed to one person and not to three.  I'm interested in the grammar; theology and polemics can be done elsewhere (and if they have already been done, just let me know, and I'll look for that).  Are the Copts "doing it wrong" grammatically, or does the Trinitarian interpretation of the EO come from somewhere other than grammar?     
Actually, the last verse the Copts sing is "di-Aghia 'trias! eleison imas" "O Holy Trinity"-the "di" is the only Coptic word in the whole hymn (though they have the same expansion/interpolation as the rest of the non-Chalcedonians).

Grammar isn't going to help, as the Trinity is always a singular subject.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 18,352


"Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee..."


WWW
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2013, 10:54:48 PM »

Actually, the last verse the Copts sing is "di-Aghia 'trias! eleison imas" "O Holy Trinity"-the "di" is the only Coptic word in the whole hymn (though they have the same expansion/interpolation as the rest of the non-Chalcedonians).

Yeah, I knew about that.  The first time I heard it and made connections, I smiled.  Smiley

Quote
Grammar isn't going to help, as the Trinity is always a singular subject.

I guess what I had in mind was some of the Byzantine texts for today's feast, where the Trinity is expounded upon by splitting up the invocations: Holy God for the Father, Holy Mighty for the Son, and Holy Immortal for the Spirit.  I wondered whether you could assign the invocations to individual persons and still be grammatically correct (i.e., the hymn actually addresses a plurality of persons) or if it was more "poetic" expression of Trinitarian faith. 
Logged

The Mor has spoken. Let his word endure unto the ages of ages.
Tags: trisagion 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.04 seconds with 28 queries.