OrthodoxChristianity.net
April 17, 2014, 02:38:38 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: The Rules page has been updated.  Please familiarize yourself with its contents!
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags CHAT Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Trinity and the Anti-Christ  (Read 891 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
fibonacci
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Shia
Posts: 163


Dhul-Qarnayn


« on: June 23, 2013, 08:37:35 PM »

My dear Christian friends, I just want to share my concerns about the concept of Trinity, and how it may affect you and your family in the coming years when the Anti-Christ is ruling the world.

Understand that the Anti-Christ, is Satan's messiah.  Satan and his demons, have been working very hard for centuries, to destroy morality and basically prepare societies for a major clash (Gog vs Magog war) so that the Anti-Christ can come 'save' everyone, and deceive everyone to accept him as the long-awaited 'messiah' during a time of utter chaos.

About 2000 years ago, Satan had a lot of trouble to eliminate Christianity or deceive Christians into committing sin, so I strongly believe that the way he has attacked Christians, is by tricking believers into accepting the concept of Trinity.

From my understanding, the OT makes no mention of Trinity, in fact Issac Newton, spent a decade locking himself in the room, going through many books and manuscripts to ultimately reject Trinity.  Newton was a very religious Christian, he was very dedicated in finding the truth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a59QriqWAgc

***

So how is the Anti-Christ going to take advantage of you with the concept of Trinity?

He will tell Christians that the Son, the Holy Spirit and the Father represents the Sun, the Moon and the Eclipse respectively.

The Sun = Masculine = The Son

The Moon = Feminine = The Holy Ghost

The holy ghost is often represented as feminine in Jewish writings.

Finally, when the Sun and the Moon come together, they make an eclipse, which is a ring
but in a way it looks like a big eye, with a big black pupil:



So in this way, he'll lure you into believing that he is the all seeing eye... the diety that Freemasons, Knights Templers, Pagan Egyptians and even modern corporations often worship through their artwork or logos.

This all seeing eye deity is not your Creator, beware of this, and I encourage you all to study this subject and figure out for yourself if Trinity is true or not.  Don't be afraid, to go through the OT and compare it with the NT, just like Issac Newton did to verify for himself.  Maybe even make a few prayers yourself, and ask the Lord about your thoughts on Trinity.

I pray that the Creator guides us to the right path, Amen.




« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 08:39:12 PM by fibonacci » Logged
JamesR
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: On-n-Off
Jurisdiction: OCA (the only truly Canonical American Orthodox Church)
Posts: 4,777


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2013, 08:47:40 PM »

?

This sounds like something out of a Dan Brown novel. Although, that picture of the eye looked eerily cool, I'll give you that.
Logged

Quote
Wherever goes JamesR goes, he is there.
-Orthonorm
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,379



« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2013, 08:52:06 PM »

?

This sounds like something out of a Dan Brown novel. Although, that picture of the eye looked eerily cool, I'll give you that.
I've told you before that when you're right, you're really right. You did it again. I'm about halfway through Dan Brown's Inferno  Grin.
Logged
Sinful Hypocrite
Everyday I am critical of others. Every day I make similar mistakes. Every day I am a hypocrite.
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: "The Orthodox Church" by Bishop Kallistos Ware: "We know where the Church is but we cannot be sure where it is not; and so we must refrain from passing judgment on non-Orthodox Christians."
Posts: 1,303


Great googly moogly!


« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2013, 09:15:44 PM »


About 2000 years ago, Satan had a lot of trouble to eliminate Christianity or deceive Christians into committing sin, so I strongly believe that the way he has attacked Christians, is by tricking believers into accepting the concept of Trinity.

From my understanding, the OT makes no mention of Trinity, in fact Issac Newton, spent a decade locking himself in the room, going through many books and manuscripts to ultimately reject Trinity.  Newton was a very religious Christian, he was very dedicated in finding the truth:

First , satan seems to have had no problem turning people to sin 2000 years ago and more , Pharoah defied God even after 10 plagues about 5000 years ago, Jesus himself was tempted, and everyone there 2000 years ago were all sinners, the righteous do not need Jesus, so their sin remains, the new testament says that all have sinned, and fall far short.◄  Romans 3:23  ►

New International Version (©2011)
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,


 We can go back to the first page of the Bible and find sin, 10,000 years ago . We are all sinners. The only real difference is that there are 6 billion more people, but Jesus never said we should limit that amount.

Isaac Newton was a great scientist, maybe the best of all time, but he also studied alchemy, and ended up poisoning himself with mercury in the ridiculous quest to change lead to gold. Isaac newton was a sinner just like you and me, that is why brains alone does not get you to heaven.

« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 09:18:08 PM by Sinful Hypocrite » Logged

The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

"A Christian is someone who follows and worships a perfectly good God who revealed his true face through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.“
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong." - Carl Kraeff
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12,023


Lion of Judah, Lion of Arabs, Lion of Everyone


WWW
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2013, 09:38:55 PM »

Cool photo!  And excellent timing for a Shiite, today's Pentecost (Trinity Sunday).  Smiley 
Logged

"Best of all, Mor Ephrem won't trap you into having his baby." - dzheremi

"Mor Ephrim will not be allowed in(to the getes of heaven) because God doesnt know him." - Cackles

"You are consistently one of the cruelest posters on this forum." - William
Nephi
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Auntie Oak
Posts: 2,987



« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2013, 09:42:45 PM »

Cool photo!  And excellent timing for a Shiite, today's Pentecost (Trinity Sunday).  Smiley 

You know, I didn't realize Pentecost was Trinity Sunday before now. It does make sense with the added expounding of the Trinity during today's service...
Logged

Liberalochian: Ecumenism Lite™
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 11,356



WWW
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2013, 09:44:32 PM »

Happy Trinity Sunday, everyone!!!

fibonacci, Satan has fooled many people in his time, including many of those who follow your faith.

I pray that one day you and yours realize the truth of Christ's Church, before it's too late.

As for the Trinity in the OT.  Yes, it is mentioned many times.  When I have more time, I will try to provide you with the exact passages.

I wish you peace and enlightenment.

....and Isaac Newton has nothing to do with Orthodoxy or Christianity.  So, please do not base your understanding or misunderstanding of Christianity based on his teachings.


Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 7,817


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2013, 10:15:38 PM »

My dear Christian friends, I just want to share my concerns about the concept of Trinity, and how it may affect you and your family in the coming years when the Anti-Christ is ruling the world.

Understand that the Anti-Christ, is Satan's messiah.  Satan and his demons, have been working very hard for centuries, to destroy morality and basically prepare societies for a major clash (Gog vs Magog war) so that the Anti-Christ can come 'save' everyone, and deceive everyone to accept him as the long-awaited 'messiah' during a time of utter chaos.

About 2000 years ago, Satan had a lot of trouble to eliminate Christianity or deceive Christians into committing sin, so I strongly believe that the way he has attacked Christians, is by tricking believers into accepting the concept of Trinity.

From my understanding, the OT makes no mention of Trinity, in fact Issac Newton, spent a decade locking himself in the room, going through many books and manuscripts to ultimately reject Trinity.  Newton was a very religious Christian, he was very dedicated in finding the truth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a59QriqWAgc

***

So how is the Anti-Christ going to take advantage of you with the concept of Trinity?

He will tell Christians that the Son, the Holy Spirit and the Father represents the Sun, the Moon and the Eclipse respectively.

The Sun = Masculine = The Son

The Moon = Feminine = The Holy Ghost

The holy ghost is often represented as feminine in Jewish writings.

Finally, when the Sun and the Moon come together, they make an eclipse, which is a ring
but in a way it looks like a big eye, with a big black pupil:



So in this way, he'll lure you into believing that he is the all seeing eye... the diety that Freemasons, Knights Templers, Pagan Egyptians and even modern corporations often worship through their artwork or logos.

This all seeing eye deity is not your Creator, beware of this, and I encourage you all to study this subject and figure out for yourself if Trinity is true or not.  Don't be afraid, to go through the OT and compare it with the NT, just like Issac Newton did to verify for himself.  Maybe even make a few prayers yourself, and ask the Lord about your thoughts on Trinity.

I pray that the Creator guides us to the right path, Amen.



This is one reason why Orthodox doctrine is so important. I have no doubt that many heterodox Christians will be susceptible to such warped messages of the antichrist. But we will never abandon our Orthodox doctrine of the Holy Trinity, and we won't fall prey to perverse teachings of the Holy Trinity.


Selam
Logged

“Lord, I say too many uncharitable things about people every day. I say them because they make me look clever. Help me to realize how cheap this is. I am stupid, quite as stupid as the people I ridicule. Help me to stop this selfishness, because I love You dear God." ~ FLANNERY O'CONNOR ~
fibonacci
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Shia
Posts: 163


Dhul-Qarnayn


« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2013, 05:38:52 PM »

Cool photo!  And excellent timing for a Shiite, today's Pentecost (Trinity Sunday).  Smiley 

You know I didn't know that, I actually prayed after I made the thread, that the Lord give me a sign to verify if I did the right thing or not-- as I didn't want to offend anyone here.

In any case, we're all free to choose what we want to believe, I pray I didn't offend anyone.
Logged
Dpaula
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian w/ Romanian background
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 295


« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2013, 06:06:38 PM »

Are you serious?

I pray for you, in the name of The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit! Lord have mercy!
Logged

Not posting anymore due to the rudeness on this site.
Gamliel
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 1,807



« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2013, 06:07:15 PM »

Are you serious?

I pray for you, in the name of The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit! Lord have mercy!
++
Logged
Jovan
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Great Britain and Scandinavia
Posts: 481



« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2013, 06:13:24 PM »

With all due love and respect brother, I humbly must ask why you are inconsistent with yourself? No one can offend the truth, rather, if someone opposes the truth he opposes himself. Let me give an example of what I mean. Forgive me and pray for me, a sinner if I sound negative dear brother.

I got a question regarding the nature of God and the understanding of "the spirit" in Islam. Please forgive and pray for me if anything becomes unclear.


The Jews during the Prophet's time, asked him what is the spirit.

This is the verse that was revealed to him:


And they ask you (O Muhammad SAW) concerning the Ruh (the Spirit); Say: "The Ruh (the Spirit): it is one of the things, the knowledge of which is only with my Lord. And of knowledge, you (mankind) have been given only a little." -17:85

http://quran.com/17/85

It is something that may require one to go through an intensive spiritual journey to barely scratch the surface.

Why do you approach the loving, most merciful and living holy spirit when the Quran states that the spirit is something being a heavenly mystery which you got little knowledge to even address? With all respect to the truth of our Lord Jesus Christ, and even the Quran. If we now know that there is one God, the true and living one. But yet there is a holy spirit which is a divine mystery to us, how can you condemn something that you admit that we got so little knowledge about. Knowledge that is only within the knowledge of the Lord.
Logged

“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."
Jovan
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Great Britain and Scandinavia
Posts: 481



« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2013, 06:14:35 PM »

We are truly free to believe what we want, we all ought to remember though. If we oppose the truth we oppose ourselves...
Logged

“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."
Jovan
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Great Britain and Scandinavia
Posts: 481



« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2013, 06:20:25 PM »

For the sake of everyone reading your new thread dear brother. Either affirm what your Quran states, and accept the holy spirit as a mystery within Gods nature. Or, you delete your post, not trying to present some knowledge out of something which only God has knowledge. You can´t have both in this case, with love and humility for the truth. Satan could not even if he tried for a million years get the knowledge that is with the Lord. The holy spirit still remains, in Christianity and Islam, and praise be to the Father, the Son and The Holy Spirit for that, in all ages of ages, amen.
Logged

“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."
Theophilos78
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Yahwist-Apostolic Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 1,999



« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2013, 06:24:13 PM »


About 2000 years ago, Satan had a lot of trouble to eliminate Christianity or deceive Christians into committing sin, so I strongly believe that the way he has attacked Christians, is by tricking believers into accepting the concept of Trinity.

Satan succeeded in deceiving your prophet by making him mistakenly believe and propagate that the Christian Trinity consisted of the Father (Allah), Mother (Mary), and Son (Jesus). (Surah 5:116)  Roll Eyes


So how is the Anti-Christ going to take advantage of you with the concept of Trinity?

He will tell Christians that the Son, the Holy Spirit and the Father represents the Sun, the Moon and the Eclipse respectively.

The Sun = Masculine = The Son

The Moon = Feminine = The Holy Ghost

If the Sun is the Son and if the Moon is the Holy Spirit, where is the Father? The first person of the Christian Trinity is missing from your weird theory.

The Eclipse cannot be the Father since we do not believe that the Father came into existence only when the Son and the Holy Spirit came together.

The holy ghost is often represented as feminine in Jewish writings.

So what? The Holy Spirit is also mistakenly identified as Gabriel in Islam.  Roll Eyes

Our faith is not based on some mistaken Jewish writings. Ghost/Spirit has no gender.

« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 06:40:39 PM by Theophilos78 » Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,167



« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2013, 08:21:46 PM »


About 2000 years ago, Satan had a lot of trouble to eliminate Christianity or deceive Christians into committing sin, so I strongly believe that the way he has attacked Christians, is by tricking believers into accepting the concept of Trinity.

Satan succeeded in deceiving your prophet by making him mistakenly believe and propagate that the Christian Trinity consisted of the Father (Allah), Mother (Mary), and Son (Jesus). (Surah 5:116)  Roll Eyes

Yes, this couldn't have been influenced by the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collyridianism

Evidently, scholars are unsure about the strength such beliefs held sway in the Christians Mohamed would've encountered or how their legacy would have remained within the non-Christian Arab mind about the nature of Christian belief.

More interestingly, I would like to see you quote some tafsir where this verse interpreted as a rejection of the Trinity.

None of the footnotes of few infos I have take this verse as all as being some critique of the Trinity.

The mention the group above and perhaps the critique of the excessive veneration of Mary which frankly persists arguably today with some Christians making Mary into part of the Trinity so to speak.

See  some of the more overwrought Marian hymnography in the Orthodox Church and the RC notion of Co-Redemptrix. EDIT: I don't want to debate the apologetics such hymnography or Mariology, but rather it is clear from the many threads here on the matter both elements remain problematic for some.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 08:23:59 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Gradually fading away on a strict punishment schedule.
ThatOrthodoxGuy
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 8


New convert to Orthodoxy. Ex-Catholic


« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2013, 12:17:57 AM »

My dear Christian friends, I just want to share my concerns about the concept of Trinity, and how it may affect you and your family in the coming years when the Anti-Christ is ruling the world.

Understand that the Anti-Christ, is Satan's messiah.  Satan and his demons, have been working very hard for centuries, to destroy morality and basically prepare societies for a major clash (Gog vs Magog war) so that the Anti-Christ can come 'save' everyone, and deceive everyone to accept him as the long-awaited 'messiah' during a time of utter chaos.

About 2000 years ago, Satan had a lot of trouble to eliminate Christianity or deceive Christians into committing sin, so I strongly believe that the way he has attacked Christians, is by tricking believers into accepting the concept of Trinity.

From my understanding, the OT makes no mention of Trinity, in fact Issac Newton, spent a decade locking himself in the room, going through many books and manuscripts to ultimately reject Trinity.  Newton was a very religious Christian, he was very dedicated in finding the truth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a59QriqWAgc

***

So how is the Anti-Christ going to take advantage of you with the concept of Trinity?

He will tell Christians that the Son, the Holy Spirit and the Father represents the Sun, the Moon and the Eclipse respectively.

The Sun = Masculine = The Son

The Moon = Feminine = The Holy Ghost

The holy ghost is often represented as feminine in Jewish writings.

Finally, when the Sun and the Moon come together, they make an eclipse, which is a ring
but in a way it looks like a big eye, with a big black pupil:



So in this way, he'll lure you into believing that he is the all seeing eye... the diety that Freemasons, Knights Templers, Pagan Egyptians and even modern corporations often worship through their artwork or logos.

This all seeing eye deity is not your Creator, beware of this, and I encourage you all to study this subject and figure out for yourself if Trinity is true or not.  Don't be afraid, to go through the OT and compare it with the NT, just like Issac Newton did to verify for himself.  Maybe even make a few prayers yourself, and ask the Lord about your thoughts on Trinity.

I pray that the Creator guides us to the right path, Amen.






Put the crazy back in the box......
Logged

"The spread of Christ's faith ought to be near and precious to the heart of every Orthodox Christian"- St. Tikhon of Moscow
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong." - Carl Kraeff
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12,023


Lion of Judah, Lion of Arabs, Lion of Everyone


WWW
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2013, 12:40:28 AM »

From my understanding, the OT makes no mention of Trinity, in fact Issac Newton, spent a decade locking himself in the room, going through many books and manuscripts to ultimately reject Trinity.  Newton was a very religious Christian, he was very dedicated in finding the truth:

If you think about it for a moment, that's a very big jump--from the Old Testament to Isaac Newton.  Why would it take Newton to debunk the Trinity if it was so obviously wrong?  This is not unique to this subject, either: lots of people question traditional Christian beliefs and practices (even on this forum...we have at least one other non-Trinitarian), as if, in two thousand years, those objections were not raised by someone at least as smart as them.

As I said in another thread, the word "Trinity" is not in Scripture, but the concept is there, both in the OT and in the NT.  It took the coming of Christ into the world and his sending of the Holy Spirit upon the Church in order for us to understand those passages and images properly, but there it is.  If Newton couldn't find it, that doesn't mean it was never there.  All he had to do was ask.   

Logged

"Best of all, Mor Ephrem won't trap you into having his baby." - dzheremi

"Mor Ephrim will not be allowed in(to the getes of heaven) because God doesnt know him." - Cackles

"You are consistently one of the cruelest posters on this forum." - William
Theophilos78
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Yahwist-Apostolic Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 1,999



« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2013, 06:26:43 AM »


More interestingly, I would like to see you quote some tafsir where this verse interpreted as a rejection of the Trinity.

None of the footnotes of few infos I have take this verse as all as being some critique of the Trinity.


Tafsir Ibn Abbas on Surah 4:171, which urges Christians to desist saying THREE:

The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary) and through His word he became a created being, (and a spirit from Him) and through His command, Jesus became a son without a father. (So believe in Allah and His messengers) all the messengers including Jesus, (and say not “Three”) a son, father and wife. http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=2&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=4&tAyahNo=171&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Tafsir Al-Jalalayn on Surah 4:171:

So believe in God and His messengers, and do not say, that the gods are, ‘Three’, God, Jesus and his mother. Refrain, from this and say what, it is better for you, [to say], which is the profession of His Oneness. http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=4&tAyahNo=171&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Tafsir Ibn Kathir on Surah 5:75, which reproves Christians for taking Jesus and Mary as gods:

(Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is the third of three.") Mujahid and several others said that this Ayah was revealed about the Christians in particular. As-Suddi and others said that this Ayah was revealed about taking `Isa and his mother as gods besides Allah, thus making Allah the third in a trinity. As-Suddi said, "This is similar to Allah's statement towards the end of the Surah, (And (remember) when Allah will say: "O `Isa, son of Maryam! Did you say unto men: `Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah' He will say, "Glory be to You!")﴿5:116 http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=753&Itemid=60

Tafsir Al-Jalalayn on Surah 5:73:

They are indeed disbelievers those who say, ‘God is the third of three’, gods, that is, He is one of them, the other two being Jesus and his mother, and they [who claim this] are a Christian sect; when there is no god but the One God. http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=5&tAyahNo=73&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
Theophilos78
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Yahwist-Apostolic Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 1,999



« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2013, 06:51:52 AM »


The mention the group above and perhaps the critique of the excessive veneration of Mary which frankly persists arguably today with some Christians making Mary into part of the Trinity so to speak.


Even if this were the case, it would still be a straw-man since the Christian Trinity consists of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. The Qur'an is bafflingly silent on the Christian worship of the Holy Spirit. If Muhammad had construed the excessive veneration of Mary as her inclusion into the Trinity, he would have criticized Christians for worshipping 4 gods, not 3.

More to the point, the Qur'an also praises Mary exceedingly although it teaches that Jesus was nothing more than a messenger and that Mary was thus only a messenger's mother (Surah 5:75). In the Qur'an not only Jesus, but also Mary is designated as a SIGN for mankind (Surah 21:91). In many verses Jesus is not separated from Mary and He is even identified as the Son of Mary. A chapter of the Qur'an is named after Mary (Surah 19) whereas there is no chapter named after Jesus. The name Jesus occurs in the Qur'an 25 times whilst the name Mary 34 times. A person observing these data may claim that in Islam Mary is considered a prophet along with Jesus or even a prophet greater than Jesus, which is not the case because the Qur'an never makes such a claim. In the same way, some people can mistakenly conclude that Mary is a part of the Christian Trinity, but this is not the case since Mary is never identified as a god or goddess in the Bible or in the Tradition.


See  some of the more overwrought Marian hymnography in the Orthodox Church and the RC notion of Co-Redemptrix. EDIT: I don't want to debate the apologetics such hymnography or Mariology, but rather it is clear from the many threads here on the matter both elements remain problematic for some.

Still, we cannot accuse Christians of worshipping Mary in a Trinity.

I can bring several verses from the Qur'an to support my theory that Muhammad was deified by Muslims, but it would still be wrong to claim that Islam and the Qur'an consider Muhammad equal to Allah. The official Islamic doctrines are independent of my personal interpretations or conclusions. The same rule goes for Christianity.
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,167



« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2013, 10:21:35 AM »


More interestingly, I would like to see you quote some tafsir where this verse interpreted as a rejection of the Trinity.

None of the footnotes of few infos I have take this verse as all as being some critique of the Trinity.


Tafsir Ibn Abbas on Surah 4:171, which urges Christians to desist saying THREE:

The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary) and through His word he became a created being, (and a spirit from Him) and through His command, Jesus became a son without a father. (So believe in Allah and His messengers) all the messengers including Jesus, (and say not “Three”) a son, father and wife. http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=2&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=4&tAyahNo=171&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Tafsir Al-Jalalayn on Surah 4:171:

So believe in God and His messengers, and do not say, that the gods are, ‘Three’, God, Jesus and his mother. Refrain, from this and say what, it is better for you, [to say], which is the profession of His Oneness. http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=4&tAyahNo=171&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Tafsir Ibn Kathir on Surah 5:75, which reproves Christians for taking Jesus and Mary as gods:

(Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is the third of three.") Mujahid and several others said that this Ayah was revealed about the Christians in particular. As-Suddi and others said that this Ayah was revealed about taking `Isa and his mother as gods besides Allah, thus making Allah the third in a trinity. As-Suddi said, "This is similar to Allah's statement towards the end of the Surah, (And (remember) when Allah will say: "O `Isa, son of Maryam! Did you say unto men: `Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah' He will say, "Glory be to You!")﴿5:116 http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=753&Itemid=60

Tafsir Al-Jalalayn on Surah 5:73:

They are indeed disbelievers those who say, ‘God is the third of three’, gods, that is, He is one of them, the other two being Jesus and his mother, and they [who claim this] are a Christian sect; when there is no god but the One God. http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=5&tAyahNo=73&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2



Thank you. While this problem isn't the primary one I am interested in Islamic thought, thanks for the information.
Logged

Gradually fading away on a strict punishment schedule.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,167



« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2013, 10:31:33 AM »


The mention the group above and perhaps the critique of the excessive veneration of Mary which frankly persists arguably today with some Christians making Mary into part of the Trinity so to speak.


Even if this were the case, it would still be a straw-man since the Christian Trinity consists of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. The Qur'an is bafflingly silent on the Christian worship of the Holy Spirit. If Muhammad had construed the excessive veneration of Mary as her inclusion into the Trinity, he would have criticized Christians for worshipping 4 gods, not 3.

Not if the predominant Christians who he was engaging with were primarily worshipping Mary and Jesus or were understood to be doing so, which doesn't seem far from how most outsiders who criticize RCs and Orthodox, see RC and Orthodox practices.

What you take from this surah is based on extra-Koranic material, which I thank you for showing me, but this would be a weak argument for trying to show the fallibility of the Koran.

And what do RCs and Orthodox often remind their Protestant critics of? Arguments from silence.

In any case, thanks for the links to the tafsir. Do you have any infos about which tafsir play the most important role in Koranic interpretation today? I've been reading for some time about Islamic hermeneutics, but not reading Islamic hermeneutics in any real sense, not sure that I want to or even have the time.
Logged

Gradually fading away on a strict punishment schedule.
Theophilos78
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Yahwist-Apostolic Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 1,999



« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2013, 12:52:44 PM »


Not if the predominant Christians who he was engaging with were primarily worshipping Mary and Jesus or were understood to be doing so, which doesn't seem far from how most outsiders who criticize RCs and Orthodox, see RC and Orthodox practices.

Well, it would still be a great problem because Muhammad claimed that he was the final messenger who took a direct revelation from above. God almighty would know what Christians believed regardless of how outsiders viewed them. In the Qur'an Christians are accused of worshipping Mary and Jesus as two gods in addition to Allah (2+1=3/3 being an implicit reference to the Trinity). It does not say that some Christians worship Mary and Jesus whilst some Christians worship Jesus and the Holy Spirit. It seems that the Holy Spirit was uncannily replaced with Mary. Yet this is not surprising if Muhammad interpreted the title Son of God literally and believed that Christians considered Jesus the offspring of Allah and Mary. The false Trinity attributed to Christians in the Islamic scripture is likely to be related to the physical/sensual/sexual interpretation of the title Son of God.

What you take from this surah is based on extra-Koranic material, which I thank you for showing me, but this would be a weak argument for trying to show the fallibility of the Koran.

And what do RCs and Orthodox often remind their Protestant critics of? Arguments from silence.

Yet the Qur'an limits the number of gods worshipped by Christians apart from Allah to TWO. It cannot be a coincidence also that in Surah 5:73 Christians are criticized for saying Allah is the third of the three and then in verse 75 it is said that Jesus and Mary ate earthly food and therefore were impossible to be divine.

In any case, thanks for the links to the tafsir. Do you have any infos about which tafsir play the most important role in Koranic interpretation today? I've been reading for some time about Islamic hermeneutics, but not reading Islamic hermeneutics in any real sense, not sure that I want to or even have the time.

You are welcome. All the the Tafsirs I quoted are significant. Yet the Tafsir of Ibn Kathir is more developed and comprehensive than others. Tafsir of Ibn Abbas is comparatively the oldest. There is also the Tafsir of Tabari, which unfortunately cannot be found in English on the net. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tafsir_al-Tabari
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,186



WWW
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2013, 01:17:18 PM »

Aside from the fact that the Trinity IS God and IS Biblical, so on, I think that the antichrist will indeed be quit powerful and will be able to perform very convincing "miracles".
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 01:17:36 PM by IoanC » Logged

TheTrisagion
Jack-of-all-Trades, Master of none
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,974



« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2013, 03:43:20 PM »

My dear Christian friends, I just want to share my concerns about the concept of Trinity, and how it may affect you and your family in the coming years when the Anti-Christ is ruling the world.

Understand that the Anti-Christ, is Satan's messiah.  Satan and his demons, have been working very hard for centuries, to destroy morality and basically prepare societies for a major clash (Gog vs Magog war) so that the Anti-Christ can come 'save' everyone, and deceive everyone to accept him as the long-awaited 'messiah' during a time of utter chaos.

About 2000 years ago, Satan had a lot of trouble to eliminate Christianity or deceive Christians into committing sin, so I strongly believe that the way he has attacked Christians, is by tricking believers into accepting the concept of Trinity.

From my understanding, the OT makes no mention of Trinity, in fact Issac Newton, spent a decade locking himself in the room, going through many books and manuscripts to ultimately reject Trinity.  Newton was a very religious Christian, he was very dedicated in finding the truth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a59QriqWAgc

***

So how is the Anti-Christ going to take advantage of you with the concept of Trinity?

He will tell Christians that the Son, the Holy Spirit and the Father represents the Sun, the Moon and the Eclipse respectively.

The Sun = Masculine = The Son

The Moon = Feminine = The Holy Ghost

The holy ghost is often represented as feminine in Jewish writings.

Finally, when the Sun and the Moon come together, they make an eclipse, which is a ring
but in a way it looks like a big eye, with a big black pupil:



So in this way, he'll lure you into believing that he is the all seeing eye... the diety that Freemasons, Knights Templers, Pagan Egyptians and even modern corporations often worship through their artwork or logos.

This all seeing eye deity is not your Creator, beware of this, and I encourage you all to study this subject and figure out for yourself if Trinity is true or not.  Don't be afraid, to go through the OT and compare it with the NT, just like Issac Newton did to verify for himself.  Maybe even make a few prayers yourself, and ask the Lord about your thoughts on Trinity.

I pray that the Creator guides us to the right path, Amen.


Got it.  No worshiping eclipses. On my checklist.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
fibonacci
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Shia
Posts: 163


Dhul-Qarnayn


« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2013, 01:21:04 AM »

For the sake of everyone reading your new thread dear brother. Either affirm what your Quran states, and accept the holy spirit as a mystery within Gods nature. Or, you delete your post, not trying to present some knowledge out of something which only God has knowledge. You can´t have both in this case, with love and humility for the truth. Satan could not even if he tried for a million years get the knowledge that is with the Lord. The holy spirit still remains, in Christianity and Islam, and praise be to the Father, the Son and The Holy Spirit for that, in all ages of ages, amen.

my dear friend jovan

when I was talking about the holy spirit in this thread, I'm talking about it from a jewish perspective, not from an islamic perspective

the quran is clear on that matter , that knowledge about the spirit is with the Lord

it was the jews who were very interested in the spirit, and speculated on it's properties, claiming it had feminine features, ...etc.
and they asked the prophet Mohammed about it, and verse 17:85 was their response


now the reason why I approach this subject from a jewish point of view, is because in Islam we believe that the anti-christ is a figure that will trick majority of jews (zionist types) as the long-awaited messiah.  This antichrist will also try to draw some of the Christians to its side, and he'll do it through a very deceptive interpretation of trinity, an interpretation that I suspect masons use extensively in their beliefs.
Logged
Jovan
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Great Britain and Scandinavia
Posts: 481



« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2013, 04:17:47 AM »

Appreciate your response dear brother. My only question in short was that how can you reject something that you got no knowledge of rejecting?

If God is one in nature in Islam but yet in a mystery way Allah + the spirit, how can you reject that God is not a duality instead of a trinity, when you got no basis to reject the point? No need for jewish interest, or any other approach. The verse states that the knowledge is with the Lord, so you put your whole trust on Islam, that God is one, but also that the Spirit in some mystical way possess divine attributes which only can be attributed to the one God.

Either way, the oneness of God in Islam seems more far deeper that just a numerical one.

Remember that Christians express the nature of God within the limits we were given in scripture. God is the only true God, existing as Father, Son and The Holy Spirit.

If Islam were to express God in a honest way, the burden of proof would not be on Christian for using figures and deceptive interpretations, but rather on the muslims.
Logged

“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."
Gunnarr
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,511



« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2013, 10:43:47 AM »

What would happen if this was posted on the catholic answers forum?

Logged

I am a demonic servant! Beware!
Tags: Important Trinity 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.131 seconds with 57 queries.