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Author Topic: Sunday of the New Martyrs of the Turkish (or Islamic) Yoke  (Read 797 times) Average Rating: 0
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Clare G.
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« on: June 23, 2013, 03:40:57 AM »

Can anyone help me find the Greek text of the Canon for the Third Sunday after Pentecost, the Sunday of the New Martyrs of the Turkish (or Islamic) Yoke? (July 14th this year)
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Clare G.
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« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2013, 06:28:29 AM »

Just in case anyone else is looking for it, kind posters on another forum have pointed me here:
http://www.saint.gr/214/texts.aspx

In the Greek, the Odes each have 4 troparia compared with the 8 given in the SJKP Pentecostarion (2010) making it far more manageable.
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« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2013, 06:59:15 AM »

Just in case anyone else is looking for it, kind posters on another forum have pointed me here:
http://www.saint.gr/214/texts.aspx

In the Greek, the Odes each have 4 troparia compared with the 8 given in the SJKP Pentecostarion (2010) making it far more manageable.

It is not certain that this service has been approved for liturgical use. It would be best to confirm its status before considering using it in a liturgical setting.
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« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2013, 07:04:58 AM »

I've been reading through some of these Odes and I couldn't help but notice τῆς ᾽Ανατολικῆς ᾽Εκκλησίας ἡ δόξα and εὑφραίνου ἡ ᾽Ανατολική ᾽Εκκλησία. I can't imagine this being approved.

Besides, things like καί τούς ῎Αγαρ ἀπογόνους, κακῶς φρονοῦντας ἐλέγξαντες are just plain racist.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 07:05:33 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

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Clare G.
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« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2013, 07:51:19 AM »

It is not certain that this service has been approved for liturgical use. It would be best to confirm its status before considering using it in a liturgical setting.
The SJKP Pentecostarion has no such caveat, yet it corresponds to the Greek text except for adding twice as many troparia.

To Cyrillic: Muslims are frequently referred to in Orthodox hymnody as 'offspring' or 'descendants' of Hagar. It is a condemnation of Islam, not of any particular race.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 07:54:44 AM by Clare G. » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2013, 08:43:41 AM »

I've been reading through some of these Odes and I couldn't help but notice τῆς ᾽Ανατολικῆς ᾽Εκκλησίας ἡ δόξα and εὑφραίνου ἡ ᾽Ανατολική ᾽Εκκλησία. I can't imagine this being approved.

Besides, things like καί τούς ῎Αγαρ ἀπογόνους, κακῶς φρονοῦντας ἐλέγξαντες are just plain racist.

English, please. Thank you.
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« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2013, 10:22:03 AM »

I've been reading through some of these Odes and I couldn't help but notice τῆς ᾽Ανατολικῆς ᾽Εκκλησίας ἡ δόξα and εὑφραίνου ἡ ᾽Ανατολική ᾽Εκκλησία. I can't imagine this being approved.
Why not?
Besides, things like καί τούς ῎Αγαρ ἀπογόνους, κακῶς φρονοῦντας ἐλέγξαντες are just plain racist.
That has an odd history, not only in Christianity, but early Islam as well.
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« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2013, 10:23:55 AM »

Just in case anyone else is looking for it, kind posters on another forum have pointed me here:
http://www.saint.gr/214/texts.aspx

In the Greek, the Odes each have 4 troparia compared with the 8 given in the SJKP Pentecostarion (2010) making it far more manageable.

It is not certain that this service has been approved for liturgical use. It would be best to confirm its status before considering using it in a liturgical setting.
For one thing, we had martyrs under the Islamic yoke centuries before the Turks showed up (and when Turks were Christians, before Islam claimed them).
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« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2013, 12:16:21 PM »

I've been reading through some of these Odes and I couldn't help but notice τῆς ᾽Ανατολικῆς ᾽Εκκλησίας ἡ δόξα and εὑφραίνου ἡ ᾽Ανατολική ᾽Εκκλησία. I can't imagine this being approved.
Why not?
Besides, things like καί τούς ῎Αγαρ ἀπογόνους, κακῶς φρονοῦντας ἐλέγξαντες are just plain racist.
That has an odd history, not only in Christianity, but early Islam as well.
Of all these, the only thing I do find strange in the use of the word Ανατολικῆς to describe The Church. Maybe I am missing something in the use but Ανατολικῆς means Eastern, correct? When we write hymns and speak of the The Church it is always done in a universal reference. When we speak of saints for a region the region may be mentioned but never with Εκκλησίας (The Church). For example you may see "Holy Savas, joy of all of Serbia" or "Holy Savas, joy of the The Church" but you would not see "Holy Savas, joy of the Serbian Orthodox Church."
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« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2013, 12:43:14 PM »

Of all these, the only thing I do find strange in the use of the word Ανατολικῆς to describe The Church.

Correct. Using the word 'Eastern' in hymnography to describe the Church is weird, since the Church is supposed to be universal.

Besides, things like καί τούς ῎Αγαρ ἀπογόνους, κακῶς φρονοῦντας ἐλέγξαντες are just plain racist.
That has an odd history, not only in Christianity, but early Islam as well.

I know. But I'm pretty sure that not all of Hagars descendents are muslim and using it in hymnography seems odd.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 12:43:41 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2013, 01:02:24 PM »


I know. But I'm pretty sure that not all of Hagars descendents are muslim and using it in hymnography seems odd.

Didn't St. John of Damascus identify Muslims as Ishmaelites and Hagarites too?

There is also the superstition of the Ishmaelites which to this day prevails and keeps people in error, being a forerunner of the Antichrist. They are descended from Ishmael, [who] was born to Abraham of Agar, and for this reason they are called both Agarenes and Ishmaelites. They are also called Saracens, which is derived from Sarras kenoi, or destitute of Sara, because of what Agar said to the angel: ‘Sara hath sent me away destitute.’ http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

This does not sound racist since the word Ishmaelite refers to the Islamic doctrine that Ishmael was a prophet who built the House of Allah in Mecca with Abraham and that Muhammad descended from him.

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« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2013, 05:40:35 PM »

Of all these, the only thing I do find strange in the use of the word Ανατολικῆς to describe The Church.

Correct. Using the word 'Eastern' in hymnography to describe the Church is weird, since the Church is supposed to be universal.

Besides, things like καί τούς ῎Αγαρ ἀπογόνους, κακῶς φρονοῦντας ἐλέγξαντες are just plain racist.
That has an odd history, not only in Christianity, but early Islam as well.

I know. But I'm pretty sure that not all of Hagars descendents are muslim and using it in hymnography seems odd.

It may seem odd, but it is not at all used only in this case. It's also used in the hymns chanted while the holy cross is venerated on Sept. 14 and the third Sunday in Lent.
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« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2013, 11:00:59 PM »

OK, I finally decided to run "Αγαρ ἀπογόνους, κακῶς φρονοῦντας ἐλέγξαντες" through Google's translator.

It was no help. "Hagar Descendants wrong fronountas elenxantes" is gibberish.

Not all of us understand Greek.
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« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2013, 11:22:16 PM »

Can anyone help me find the Greek text of the Canon for the Third Sunday after Pentecost, the Sunday of the New Martyrs of the Turkish (or Islamic) Yoke? (July 14th
I'm confused.  I looked at goarch and found this:  http://www.goarch.org/chapel/calendar.  I cannot find the New Martyrs of the Turkish yoke.  Am I missing something obvious?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 11:23:12 PM by Gamliel » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2013, 11:51:05 PM »

OK, I finally decided to run "Αγαρ ἀπογόνους, κακῶς φρονοῦντας ἐλέγξαντες" through Google's translator.

It was no help. "Hagar Descendants wrong fronountas elenxantes" is gibberish.

Not all of us understand Greek.

Well, clearly, the descendants of Hagar (i.e., Muslims) are wrong, and they've got fronountas up their elenxantes.  What was so hard about that?  Maybe you're tired, it's been a long day for me too...
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« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2013, 12:08:43 AM »

OK, I finally decided to run "Αγαρ ἀπογόνους, κακῶς φρονοῦντας ἐλέγξαντες" through Google's translator.

It was no help. "Hagar Descendants wrong fronountas elenxantes" is gibberish.

Not all of us understand Greek.

"The descendants of Hagar are shameful in their wrong like mindedness" or something like that. Literally in the Yoda speak of the Greek sentence structure "Hagar descendants wrong like minded shameful"
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« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2013, 07:54:11 AM »

OK, I finally decided to run "Αγαρ ἀπογόνους, κακῶς φρονοῦντας ἐλέγξαντες" through Google's translator.

It was no help. "Hagar Descendants wrong fronountas elenxantes" is gibberish.

Not all of us understand Greek.

"The descendants of Hagar are shameful in their wrong like mindedness" or something like that. Literally in the Yoda speak of the Greek sentence structure "Hagar descendants wrong like minded shameful"

Thank you. FYI, I also tried Bing, it didn't get any of it. (The instruction manual for my hdtv must have been translated from whatever that way!)
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 07:54:28 AM by podkarpatska » Logged
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