Author Topic: This May be Silly, But....  (Read 1036 times)

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Offline JamesR

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This May be Silly, But....
« on: June 22, 2013, 02:15:22 PM »
It's a question for any Evangelicals out there.

Jesus says in John 3:5 that "...Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." Now correct me if I am wrong, but Evangelicals interpret the "water" part to be referring to the fluid inside of a mother's womb, thus, to be "born of water" means to literally be born into the world, correct?

Then why are Evangelicals so opposed to abortion? Technically speaking, wouldn't a fetus then be incapable of entering the "kingdom of God" since they were not physically born? And if it cannot enter the kingdom of God, then wouldn't it mean that a fetus is not a person, and thus there is nothing wrong with abortion?

Now, I know this sounds simplistic, but it is similar to the logic that Evangelicals throw against us in regards to Baptism. They appeal to emotion and say that Baptism is inconsistent because it would mean that unbaptized babies "don't go to Heaven" (even though that's never been our position), yet, their interpretation of this passage begs the similar question of whether or not an unborn fetus can enter it, and if it cannot, then why they are so opposed to abortion.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: This May be Silly, But....
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2013, 02:18:49 PM »
Now, I know this sounds simplistic, but it is similar to the logic [of] Evangelicals
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: This May be Silly, But....
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2013, 08:16:12 PM »
You're right...your whole train-wreck of a thought is silly.
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Offline Shlomlokh

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Re: This May be Silly, But....
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2013, 10:50:47 PM »
You're right...your whole train-wreck of a thought is silly.
The boy should have stopped before "but."

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Offline Tikhon29605

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Re: This May be Silly, But....
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2013, 09:17:01 AM »
It's a question for any Evangelicals out there.

Jesus says in John 3:5 that "...Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." Now correct me if I am wrong, but Evangelicals interpret the "water" part to be referring to the fluid inside of a mother's womb, thus, to be "born of water" means to literally be born into the world, correct?

Then why are Evangelicals so opposed to abortion? Technically speaking, wouldn't a fetus then be incapable of entering the "kingdom of God" since they were not physically born? And if it cannot enter the kingdom of God, then wouldn't it mean that a fetus is not a person, and thus there is nothing wrong with abortion?

Now, I know this sounds simplistic, but it is similar to the logic that Evangelicals throw against us in regards to Baptism. They appeal to emotion and say that Baptism is inconsistent because it would mean that unbaptized babies "don't go to Heaven" (even though that's never been our position), yet, their interpretation of this passage begs the similar question of whether or not an unborn fetus can enter it, and if it cannot, then why they are so opposed to abortion.


Good point!

If you want to further frustrate the Evangelicals, ask them to show you some other examples of the phrase 'born of water' used to refer to human birth in the Scriptures.  If their position is true, then the Divine Scriptures should be filled with references to people being "born of water" as a synonym for physical birth all the time.  The Protestants love to tell us that "Scripture interprets Scripture."  So where are all the Scriptures that equate being "born of water" with being born physically?  They just aren't there.

Offline Alpo

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Re: This May be Silly, But....
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2013, 12:21:57 PM »
Jesus says in John 3:5 that "...Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." Now correct me if I am wrong, but Evangelicals interpret the "water" part to be referring to the fluid inside of a mother's womb, thus, to be "born of water" means to literally be born into the world, correct?

Finnish Pentecostals interpret the "water" as a symbol for the word/Word of God.
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Offline Cyrillic

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Re: This May be Silly, But....
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2013, 12:24:37 PM »
Jesus says in John 3:5 that "...Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." Now correct me if I am wrong, but Evangelicals interpret the "water" part to be referring to the fluid inside of a mother's womb, thus, to be "born of water" means to literally be born into the world, correct?

Finnish Pentecostals interpret the "water" as a symbol for the word/Word of God.

Which again proves that Pentecostals are nuts.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: This May be Silly, But....
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2013, 12:52:33 PM »
Jesus says in John 3:5 that "...Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." Now correct me if I am wrong, but Evangelicals interpret the "water" part to be referring to the fluid inside of a mother's womb, thus, to be "born of water" means to literally be born into the world, correct?

Finnish Pentecostals interpret the "water" as a symbol for the word/Word of God.

Which again proves that Pentecostals are nuts.

Not really. They are wrong but they have rather good arguments for their view.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 12:52:53 PM by Alpo »
Quote from: Severian
the people on this forum have to stop taking themselves so seriously. None of us are some modern-day Athanasius, we all just have nothing better to do.

Offline walter1234

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Re: This May be Silly, But....
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2013, 01:11:13 PM »
Then, what is Orthodox Church interpretation of 'water' in John 3:5?

How do the Saints and Church Fathers understand of 'water' in John 3:5?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 01:17:29 PM by walter1234 »

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: This May be Silly, But....
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2013, 01:21:21 PM »
Then, what is Orthodox Church interpretation of 'water' in John 3:5?

How do the Saints and Church Fathers understand of 'water' in John 3:5?

As being water.
At nunc desertis cessant sacraria lucis:
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-Propertius, Elegies III.XIII:47-48

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Offline walter1234

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Re: This May be Silly, But....
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2013, 03:16:57 PM »
Then, what is Orthodox Church interpretation of 'water' in John 3:5?

How do the Saints and Church Fathers understand of 'water' in John 3:5?

As being water.

I Still do not undersrand... :-\

How can I be water?  ???

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: This May be Silly, But....
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2013, 03:18:20 PM »
Baptism.
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Offline lovetzatziki

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Re: This May be Silly, But....
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2013, 05:24:23 PM »
I think the word water in John 3:5 is an allusion to a greater spiritual truth.

Offline David Young

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Re: This May be Silly, But....
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2013, 04:19:41 PM »
Then why are Evangelicals so opposed to abortion?

I think you are muddling two unrelated matters - the exegesis of the words in John, and the question of abortion. The former is in the Bible, however it is understood; abortion is not in the Bible. Therefore, those Evangelicals who are opposed to abortion have quite different reasons for their view on baptism and their view on abortion.

They reach the view on abortion by a chain of reason from such passages as "from the womb" in the OT, which they take to mean "from when I was in the womb" rather than "from when I left the womb". The strongest such argument is the leaping of John the Baptist in his mother's womb when she met Mary. The question seems to hang on when a foetus or embryo becomes "a living soul": is it when it gets its own independent breath ("God breathed into him the breath of life and he became a living soul" - i.e. is actually born) or is it when it is conceived? The Bible doesn't actually say, so one has to start somewhere and reach a conclusion further down the logical chain. But the words in John about born of water are there and can (nay must) be exegeted.

The conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus does contain signs that it was about physical and spiritual birth, which could be taken
to support the view that of water and of the Spirit refer to those, and not to baptism, which does not seem to be a topic in the exchange.

It is worth adding that abortion ought not to be a convenient means of birth control to make fornication easier.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 04:20:52 PM by David Young »
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