Author Topic: This May be Silly, But....  (Read 916 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JamesR

  • Virginal Chicano Blood
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,467
  • St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!
  • Faith: Misotheistic Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
This May be Silly, But....
« on: June 22, 2013, 02:15:22 PM »
It's a question for any Evangelicals out there.

Jesus says in John 3:5 that "...Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." Now correct me if I am wrong, but Evangelicals interpret the "water" part to be referring to the fluid inside of a mother's womb, thus, to be "born of water" means to literally be born into the world, correct?

Then why are Evangelicals so opposed to abortion? Technically speaking, wouldn't a fetus then be incapable of entering the "kingdom of God" since they were not physically born? And if it cannot enter the kingdom of God, then wouldn't it mean that a fetus is not a person, and thus there is nothing wrong with abortion?

Now, I know this sounds simplistic, but it is similar to the logic that Evangelicals throw against us in regards to Baptism. They appeal to emotion and say that Baptism is inconsistent because it would mean that unbaptized babies "don't go to Heaven" (even though that's never been our position), yet, their interpretation of this passage begs the similar question of whether or not an unborn fetus can enter it, and if it cannot, then why they are so opposed to abortion.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
In the infinite wisdom of God, James can be all three.

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Avowed denominationalist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,336
  • Nepsis or Sepsis™
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian+Greek
Re: This May be Silly, But....
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2013, 02:18:49 PM »
Now, I know this sounds simplistic, but it is similar to the logic [of] Evangelicals
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πλούσιοι επτώχευσαν και επείνασαν
Οιδε εκζητούντες τον Κύριον
Ουκ ελαττωθήσονται παντός αγαθού

Offline scamandrius

  • Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,537
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Greek in exile
Re: This May be Silly, But....
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2013, 08:16:12 PM »
You're right...your whole train-wreck of a thought is silly.
I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene

Offline Shlomlokh

  • 主哀れめよ!
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,319
Re: This May be Silly, But....
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2013, 10:50:47 PM »
You're right...your whole train-wreck of a thought is silly.
The boy should have stopped before "but."

In Christ,
Andrew
"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos

Online Tikhon29605

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 568
  • May I become Thy Tabernacle through Communion.
Re: This May be Silly, But....
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2013, 09:17:01 AM »
It's a question for any Evangelicals out there.

Jesus says in John 3:5 that "...Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." Now correct me if I am wrong, but Evangelicals interpret the "water" part to be referring to the fluid inside of a mother's womb, thus, to be "born of water" means to literally be born into the world, correct?

Then why are Evangelicals so opposed to abortion? Technically speaking, wouldn't a fetus then be incapable of entering the "kingdom of God" since they were not physically born? And if it cannot enter the kingdom of God, then wouldn't it mean that a fetus is not a person, and thus there is nothing wrong with abortion?

Now, I know this sounds simplistic, but it is similar to the logic that Evangelicals throw against us in regards to Baptism. They appeal to emotion and say that Baptism is inconsistent because it would mean that unbaptized babies "don't go to Heaven" (even though that's never been our position), yet, their interpretation of this passage begs the similar question of whether or not an unborn fetus can enter it, and if it cannot, then why they are so opposed to abortion.


Good point!

If you want to further frustrate the Evangelicals, ask them to show you some other examples of the phrase 'born of water' used to refer to human birth in the Scriptures.  If their position is true, then the Divine Scriptures should be filled with references to people being "born of water" as a synonym for physical birth all the time.  The Protestants love to tell us that "Scripture interprets Scripture."  So where are all the Scriptures that equate being "born of water" with being born physically?  They just aren't there.

Offline Alpo

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,362
  • My borcht recipe is better than your borcht recipe
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to internets.
Re: This May be Silly, But....
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2013, 12:21:57 PM »
Jesus says in John 3:5 that "...Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." Now correct me if I am wrong, but Evangelicals interpret the "water" part to be referring to the fluid inside of a mother's womb, thus, to be "born of water" means to literally be born into the world, correct?

Finnish Pentecostals interpret the "water" as a symbol for the word/Word of God.

Online Cyrillic

  • Arbiter Elegantiarum
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,860
  • Cyrillico est edere orbem universum
Re: This May be Silly, But....
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2013, 12:24:37 PM »
Jesus says in John 3:5 that "...Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." Now correct me if I am wrong, but Evangelicals interpret the "water" part to be referring to the fluid inside of a mother's womb, thus, to be "born of water" means to literally be born into the world, correct?

Finnish Pentecostals interpret the "water" as a symbol for the word/Word of God.

Which again proves that Pentecostals are nuts.
"April is the cruellest month, breeding
lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
memory and desire, stirring
dull roots with spring rain."
-T.S. Eliot

Offline Alpo

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,362
  • My borcht recipe is better than your borcht recipe
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to internets.
Re: This May be Silly, But....
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2013, 12:52:33 PM »
Jesus says in John 3:5 that "...Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." Now correct me if I am wrong, but Evangelicals interpret the "water" part to be referring to the fluid inside of a mother's womb, thus, to be "born of water" means to literally be born into the world, correct?

Finnish Pentecostals interpret the "water" as a symbol for the word/Word of God.

Which again proves that Pentecostals are nuts.

Not really. They are wrong but they have rather good arguments for their view.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 12:52:53 PM by Alpo »

Offline walter1234

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 928
Re: This May be Silly, But....
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2013, 01:11:13 PM »
Then, what is Orthodox Church interpretation of 'water' in John 3:5?

How do the Saints and Church Fathers understand of 'water' in John 3:5?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 01:17:29 PM by walter1234 »

Online Cyrillic

  • Arbiter Elegantiarum
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,860
  • Cyrillico est edere orbem universum
Re: This May be Silly, But....
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2013, 01:21:21 PM »
Then, what is Orthodox Church interpretation of 'water' in John 3:5?

How do the Saints and Church Fathers understand of 'water' in John 3:5?

As being water.
"April is the cruellest month, breeding
lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
memory and desire, stirring
dull roots with spring rain."
-T.S. Eliot

Offline walter1234

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 928
Re: This May be Silly, But....
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2013, 03:16:57 PM »
Then, what is Orthodox Church interpretation of 'water' in John 3:5?

How do the Saints and Church Fathers understand of 'water' in John 3:5?

As being water.

I Still do not undersrand... :-\

How can I be water?  ???

Online Cyrillic

  • Arbiter Elegantiarum
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,860
  • Cyrillico est edere orbem universum
Re: This May be Silly, But....
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2013, 03:18:20 PM »
Baptism.
"April is the cruellest month, breeding
lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
memory and desire, stirring
dull roots with spring rain."
-T.S. Eliot

Offline lovetzatziki

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 430
Re: This May be Silly, But....
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2013, 05:24:23 PM »
I think the word water in John 3:5 is an allusion to a greater spiritual truth.

Offline David Young

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,896
  • 2012, at the Presbyterian chapel, Nantyr
    • Some of my sermons preached at Bradley Road
  • Faith: Baptist
  • Jurisdiction: local church, Wrexham
Re: This May be Silly, But....
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2013, 04:19:41 PM »
Then why are Evangelicals so opposed to abortion?

I think you are muddling two unrelated matters - the exegesis of the words in John, and the question of abortion. The former is in the Bible, however it is understood; abortion is not in the Bible. Therefore, those Evangelicals who are opposed to abortion have quite different reasons for their view on baptism and their view on abortion.

They reach the view on abortion by a chain of reason from such passages as "from the womb" in the OT, which they take to mean "from when I was in the womb" rather than "from when I left the womb". The strongest such argument is the leaping of John the Baptist in his mother's womb when she met Mary. The question seems to hang on when a foetus or embryo becomes "a living soul": is it when it gets its own independent breath ("God breathed into him the breath of life and he became a living soul" - i.e. is actually born) or is it when it is conceived? The Bible doesn't actually say, so one has to start somewhere and reach a conclusion further down the logical chain. But the words in John about born of water are there and can (nay must) be exegeted.

The conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus does contain signs that it was about physical and spiritual birth, which could be taken
to support the view that of water and of the Spirit refer to those, and not to baptism, which does not seem to be a topic in the exchange.

It is worth adding that abortion ought not to be a convenient means of birth control to make fornication easier.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 04:20:52 PM by David Young »
"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15