Author Topic: The Lucifer-saga, a perversion of scripture  (Read 3085 times)

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Offline jaroslavkourakin

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The Lucifer-saga, a perversion of scripture
« on: June 21, 2013, 07:41:05 AM »
Whenever I ask people to give scriptural proof of that Satan was an angel in heaven, leading the quior and rebelling against God to seize his power, I get either Ezekiel 28 or Isaiah 14. None of these speak of an angel but of individual kings whom the prophets declare judgement upon, among many others. The king of Tyre was a wise man who built up a great society for his people, being likened to a protecting Cherubim by the prophet, but became corrupted by his trading and will now see his kingdom burn with him himself becoming ashes. Likewise the king of Babylon, because of his great power, sees himself no longer dependeng upon God but comparable to God, and the prophet tells him he will come down to the grave where the people will tell him plainly "is this the MAN that made the nations tremble?".

Another scripture they usually point out is when Jesus says "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven", but this should rather be a reference to Satan's power being taken away from him at the crucifiction and Jesus' ability to know the future, because the next thing he says is "Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you."

What the Bible does say about Satan however is that he was a "beast of the field" made more subtle/crafty than other animals. The image of the "ancient serpent" that makes a third if the stars fall in Revelation is saying that Satan has made saints fall and not angels, for if it were angels it would mean Christ is an angel as well, who is the morning star (Rev 22:16). Among those certainly being Adam and Eve and anyone else who believes in this Lucifer-lie.

There is a reference to the book of Enoch in the letters of Peter and Jude. Here a group of angels agree among themselves to go down to earth and lie with the women. They do that and with some animals as well, and afterwards are not allowed to communicate with God but Enoch must intercede for them. This refers to Genesis 6, and if both this and Genesis 3 is true then Satan is not a ceature among the angels.

Offline IoanC

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Re: The Lucifer-saga, a perversion of scripture
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2013, 08:30:33 AM »
Not sure what you are saying exactly, but I will give an answer. This is the future of communication, by the way.  :)

It's impossible to determine what satan ever wanted because he knows from the start that he can't succeed since God cannot be conditioned. Ultimately, satan separates himself from God and is subject to eternal torment, and even His actual wrath if he provokes Him. Again, God's wrath is not a result of temperamental anger as if He needs something from satan, but a result of causality: you cannot condition God.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 08:45:01 AM by IoanC »

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: The Lucifer-saga, a perversion of scripture
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2013, 08:42:10 AM »
You get those verses because the Bible is to be read like an icon (or rather, icons are based on the way the Bible is read). Everything that happens on Earth is either reflecting a heavenly reality or an infernal one. That's what sacred history is about. We only have good authorities falling because in Heaven, once, a  good authority also fell.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 08:43:10 AM by Fabio Leite »
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Offline jaroslavkourakin

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Re: The Lucifer-saga, a perversion of scripture
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2013, 10:11:16 AM »
I don't know if Genesis 3 and Genesis 6 can be combined. They are from different sources and use different names for God, the first Jehovah and the other Elohim. It is Jehovah that creates the Serpent that tempts the woman, and it is the sons of the Elohim that later come down and take wives for themselves. The first creation saga also says Elohim and not Jehovah created the heavens and the earth, and man in the image of the Elohim, male and female. Apparently, Jesus refers to Elohim on the cross or "Eli Eli".

Or what are we supposed to make of this? First, Satan, the serpent, the beast of the field, tempts and corrupts man. Then, the angels, of themselves or by the temptation of Satan, likewise fall in their character when they lie with women and beasts.

To me it is becoming clear that Satan is something in the physical realm but not the heavenly realm, that is able to make heavenly beings fall, and humans who have wisdom and have a heavenly part to them.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 10:12:51 AM by jaroslavkourakin »

Offline Romaios

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Re: The Lucifer-saga, a perversion of scripture
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2013, 10:24:11 AM »
I don't know if Genesis 3 and Genesis 6 can be combined.

They have been combined. For at least some 2500 years now... 




« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 10:35:09 AM by Romaios »

Offline jaroslavkourakin

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Re: The Lucifer-saga, a perversion of scripture
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2013, 10:41:45 AM »
The only way they can be combined is if we agree Satan is not an angel, because angels didn't fall before Genesis 6. However, speaking of which,  how can Genesis 1 and 2 fit, since they have a different order of creation?

Offline Romaios

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Re: The Lucifer-saga, a perversion of scripture
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2013, 10:45:38 AM »
The only way they can be combined is if we agree Satan is not an angel, because angels didn't fall before Genesis 6. However, speaking of which,  how can Genesis 1 and 2 fit, since they have a different order of creation?

Can you separate the sperm from the egg once the embryo developed into a grown man? Or the hydrogen from the oxygen in the water molecule and still expect to drink water and quench your thirst?

Offline IoanC

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Re: The Lucifer-saga, a perversion of scripture
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2013, 10:48:31 AM »
The only way they can be combined is if we agree Satan is not an angel, because angels didn't fall before Genesis 6. However, speaking of which,  how can Genesis 1 and 2 fit, since they have a different order of creation?

Problem is that Genesis is a whole book, and not just a book, but a tradition. You cannot say the angels didn't fall before Genesis 6, just because it doesn't become apparent in chapter 1, or whichever. Do you see what I mean? If I start a narrative and mention that I know something  in the middle of it that doesn't mean that I didn't know about that something from the beginning of the narrative. The Bible is an entire revelation, a tradition. It's pointless to take it apart like that, unless you want to say it's really not a tradition (but it is, people have always believed it and still do)
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 10:56:26 AM by IoanC »

Offline Romaios

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Re: The Lucifer-saga, a perversion of scripture
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2013, 10:53:19 AM »
The only way they can be combined is if we agree Satan is not an angel, because angels didn't fall before Genesis 6.

A principle of rabbinical exegesis:

Ein muqdam vemeu'char baTora.

"There is no before and after in the Tora."
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 10:53:55 AM by Romaios »

Offline Seraphim98

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Re: The Lucifer-saga, a perversion of scripture
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2013, 10:55:52 AM »
Well instead of getting the Orthodox on the street opinion of the matter why not put the question to someone with enough knowledge of Scripture and depth of spiritual insight to give you an answer rooted deeply within the patristic understanding and living experience of the Church? I would suggest talking to a holy elder should God give you grace to find one willing to have this conversation.

Also, other than a label/name what changes about who Satan is and what he does in relation to the Church and the rest of creation if you are not convinced he is a fallen angel in the conventional sense. If there is no appreciable change, then it becomes a distinction without a difference. He still hates God, hates us, and means us no good.

Offline Gunnarr

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Re: The Lucifer-saga, a perversion of scripture
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2013, 02:19:19 AM »
St. Basil speaks of Satan as being a fallen angel in his homily explaining that God is not the creator of evil, so at least it is not something made up completetly...

I would post it all but I don't know if you want to read it
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 02:19:36 AM by Gunnarr »
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Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: The Lucifer-saga, a perversion of scripture
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2013, 06:46:04 PM »
As far as the uses of different names for God, I believe that was just different languages and or tribes. Just as I speak Greek and the word for God is Theos. The religion or the meaning does not change because a Greek says Theos and you say God, they are one and the same.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 06:47:26 PM by Sinful Hypocrite »
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