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Author Topic: Biblical method for baking bread?  (Read 664 times) Average Rating: 5
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Mor Ephrem
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« on: June 20, 2013, 11:13:54 PM »

In Ezekiel 4.9-15, God instructs the prophet:

Quote
“And you, take wheat and barley, beans and lentils, millet and spelt, and put them into a single vessel, and make bread of them. During the number of days that you lie upon your side, three hundred and ninety days, you shall eat it.  And the food which you eat shall be by weight, twenty shekels a day; once a day you shall eat it.  And water you shall drink by measure, the sixth part of a hin; once a day you shall drink.  And you shall eat it as a barley cake, baking it in their sight on human dung.”  And the Lord said, “Thus shall the people of Israel eat their bread unclean, among the nations whither I will drive them.”  Then I said, “Ah Lord God! behold, I have never defiled myself; from my youth up till now I have never eaten what died of itself or was torn by beasts, nor has foul flesh come into my mouth.”  Then he said to me, “See, I will let you have cow’s dung instead of human dung, on which you may prepare your bread.”

Clearly, God intends for us to eat bread baked on human dung.  His allowance for animal dung to be used instead was to avoid ritual uncleanness for Ezekiel, who was a priest.  It was obviously a favour.   

But in Acts 10.9-16, we read:

Quote
The next day, as they were on their journey and coming near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour.  And he became hungry and desired something to eat; but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance  and saw the heaven opened, and something descending, like a great sheet, let down by four corners upon the earth.  In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air.  And there came a voice to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”  But Peter said, “No, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.”  And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has cleansed, you must not call common.”  This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven.

So obviously, in addition to cleansing all the unclean animals, God has cleansed human dung and made it an acceptable fuel for the baking of bread. 

And yet, I'm unaware of any baking methods in use among Christians which involve human feces.  The current baking methods pre-date the Gospels and originate in the pagan world.  Of course, Christians have kept them going, in direct violation of Scripture.   

Since the Scriptures clearly instruct us to eat bread baked upon human dung--after all, this is the direct command of God--why aren't more Christians eating only this sort of bread?  Shouldn't Christians be prohibited from eating bread baked in ovens, over wood fires, etc.?   
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« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2013, 12:58:07 AM »

I wonder, would this include the bread used for the Eucharist? Cool
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« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2013, 01:01:11 AM »

In Ezekiel 4.9-15, God instructs the prophet:

Quote
“And you, take wheat and barley, beans and lentils, millet and spelt, and put them into a single vessel, and make bread of them. During the number of days that you lie upon your side, three hundred and ninety days, you shall eat it.  And the food which you eat shall be by weight, twenty shekels a day; once a day you shall eat it.  And water you shall drink by measure, the sixth part of a hin; once a day you shall drink.  And you shall eat it as a barley cake, baking it in their sight on human dung.”  And the Lord said, “Thus shall the people of Israel eat their bread unclean, among the nations whither I will drive them.”  Then I said, “Ah Lord God! behold, I have never defiled myself; from my youth up till now I have never eaten what died of itself or was torn by beasts, nor has foul flesh come into my mouth.”  Then he said to me, “See, I will let you have cow’s dung instead of human dung, on which you may prepare your bread.”

Clearly, God intends for us to eat bread baked on human dung.  His allowance for animal dung to be used instead was to avoid ritual uncleanness for Ezekiel, who was a priest.  It was obviously a favour.   

But in Acts 10.9-16, we read:

Quote
The next day, as they were on their journey and coming near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour.  And he became hungry and desired something to eat; but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance  and saw the heaven opened, and something descending, like a great sheet, let down by four corners upon the earth.  In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air.  And there came a voice to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”  But Peter said, “No, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.”  And the voice came to him again a second time, “What God has cleansed, you must not call common.”  This happened three times, and the thing was taken up at once to heaven.

So obviously, in addition to cleansing all the unclean animals, God has cleansed human dung and made it an acceptable fuel for the baking of bread. 

And yet, I'm unaware of any baking methods in use among Christians which involve human feces.  The current baking methods pre-date the Gospels and originate in the pagan world.  Of course, Christians have kept them going, in direct violation of Scripture.   

Since the Scriptures clearly instruct us to eat bread baked upon human dung--after all, this is the direct command of God--why aren't more Christians eating only this sort of bread?  Shouldn't Christians be prohibited from eating bread baked in ovens, over wood fires, etc.?   

Moar Mor.

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« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2013, 03:00:31 AM »

I think it was supposed to be symbolic.  At least I hope it was. 
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« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2013, 04:26:58 AM »

Dried animal dung is often used as fuel for fires in the absence of wood.
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« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2013, 04:46:27 AM »

My grandmother baked her bread under an iron bell piled up with hot ashes. Shockingly unbiblical, but oh so tasty. Wink
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« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2013, 07:31:33 AM »

Dear Mor,

I agree with orthonorm about your brilliance.
Elephant dung is a superior fuel source.  Nice to know it is blessed as well.
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« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2013, 07:53:44 AM »

Dear Mor,

I agree with orthonorm about your brilliance.
Elephant dung is a superior fuel source.  Nice to know it is blessed as well.

Only the dung of a female elephant is allowed.  Be very careful not to collect any bull elephant dung.  Human dung is clearly preferred, though. 
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« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2013, 11:05:11 AM »

Everything the Prophets do is for our edification, but not everything they did is for our imitation.

btw, I wholeheartedly agree with orthonorm on mor.
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« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2013, 11:13:40 AM »

YeshuaisIam needs to be summoned to address this concern immediately. 
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« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2013, 11:15:30 AM »

YeshuaisIam needs to be summoned to address this concern immediately. 

That was sorta the point of the brilliance of Mor, he out YiMed him at his own game.
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« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2013, 11:19:39 AM »

YeshuaisIam needs to be summoned to address this concern immediately. 

That was sorta the point of the brilliance of Mor, he out YiMed him at his own game.
we'll have to ask if he uses toilet paper instead of napkins when he breaks bread.
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« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2013, 11:21:12 AM »

YeshuaisIam needs to be summoned to address this concern immediately. 

That was sorta the point of the brilliance of Mor, he out YiMed him at his own game.
we'll have to ask if he uses toilet paper instead of napkins when he breaks bread.

Usually I stop my toilet interrogations at the fold vs. crumple divide.  But you do raise a good point.
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« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2013, 01:14:26 PM »

Nothing like poopy talk to reduce guys to be level of eight year olds! Absolutely brilliant.  Cheesy
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« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2013, 01:32:10 PM »

My grandmother baked her bread under an iron bell piled up with hot ashes. Shockingly unbiblical, but oh so tasty. Wink

I'm sure it was tasty.  Smiley  I'm a big fan of "traditionally" baked breads, be they from Mediterranean food cultures or from the East.  But they all have one thing in common, and you said it yourself: they're shockingly unbiblical in their preparation.  Should we be promoting products that may very well be nice, healthy, tasty, and familiar but are also against the word of God?  In this case, it seems clear that tasty = sinful.  

I wonder, would this include the bread used for the Eucharist? Cool

A good question!  When I was taught how to bake Eucharistic bread, I was taught to bake it over a fire or in an oven.  From what I can tell, my EO friends do something similar.  But no one ever told us that the fuel for the fire or the oven should be human dung.  Tremendous emphasis was placed on the cleanliness of the oven, the baking utensils, etc., I was even told to have equipment exclusively designated for this purpose, including the oven if possible.  But no human dung.  It's as if "NO FECES" was so obvious a rule that they didn't feel a need to mention it!  

And I think this is a tremendous oversight in a tradition that is otherwise super-concerned about making sure that things are done the best way possible, including developing liturgical vessels for the Eucharist that are no where to be found in the NT.  You won't find the standard Orthodox liturgical items in the Bible, but you will definitely find feces as a part of baking.

But this brings us to the question of what Jesus did with bread.  He talks about it a lot, he multiplies it miraculously, but we never really see him baking it.  What would he have done?  I think it's obvious: he would've used human feces.  First of all, as I demonstrated in my original post, the Ezekelian allowance of cow's dung was by way of exception--he was a priest and didn't want to become ritually defiled.  Plus, it's gross, and God is merciful.  

But when Christ came, Scripture is clear that he fulfilled the Law and the Prophets:

Quote
“Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.  For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.  Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.  For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."  Mt. 5.17-20

It's evident that, while the Gospels don't show Jesus baking bread per se, Jesus did indeed fulfill that which Ezekiel only foreshadowed--he baked bread with human feces.  This is not contradicted by the New Testament, either.  Out of all the passages in the NT related to bread, I don't believe you'll find anything specifically saying that bread ought or could be baked over coals, wood, etc.  Though I'm not well-read in the Apostolic Fathers, I'm fairly sure that you won't find it in there either.  It seems that the allowance for non-fecal fuels for baking bread is a post-2nd century accretion to biblical Christianity.  

It makes sense.  After all, with the legalisation of Christianity under Constantine, and the delay in his own conversion and baptism, can anyone imagine a king eating bread baked over flaming feces?  And do you think the bishops would've pushed the matter?  After all, they were adding and subtracting things from Christianity already, and they were probably so overjoyed not to be persecuted anymore that they figured allowing pagan baking techniques wasn't so bad a trade-off (and, Arachne, I imagine the taste got better!  Smiley).  But changes like this corrupted Christianity over time.  How much longer can we keep ignoring and defying God's direct orders?

I agree with orthonorm about your brilliance.
Elephant dung is a superior fuel source.  Nice to know it is blessed as well.
   

Nice try, elephant, but your flattery won't get you anywhere.  Wink  The Bible is clear: cow's dung was the exception, human dung the rule.  It says nothing about elephant dung (though the elephant is my favourite animal!).  

Only the dung of a female elephant is allowed.  Be very careful not to collect any bull elephant dung.  Human dung is clearly preferred, though.  

Again, where is this in Scripture?  It doesn't say anything about elephants, let alone the sex of the defecating elephant.  You are right, though, about the preference for human dung.  

Moar Mor.

Your return to this board has been inspiring. You are one brilliant and entertaining cat.

Thanks for your kind words, orthonorm (and everyone else!), I appreciate the "welcome back".  But I didn't want to ignore this in light of some of the other comments.  I may be an "entertaining cat", but for the record, cat dung is also not allowed as a fuel for baking bread.  The Bible is clear about the requirement for human matter.  My problem right now is that I can't generate enough of my own to bake a proper pizza, and asking around for "donations" has only been awkward.  It's sad, people are so conditioned against the biblical precepts because some murderous emperor couldn't handle it.      
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« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2013, 02:00:41 PM »

Dear Mor,

I never thought of Bill Gates as an early-church kind of guy, but may have been wrong:

"Making energy from poop can be a good profit-making and social enterprise. That’s the aim of a research project at Columbia University, where a professor is getting a $1.5 million grant from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation to develop a waste-to-energy technology." -http://gigaom.com/2011/06/17/bill-gates-backs-fecal-to-fuel-tech/
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« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2013, 02:05:35 PM »

elephant,

It's like they're trying to invent the wheel when God already gave us a set. 
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« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2013, 02:06:02 PM »

I may be an "entertaining cat", but for the record, cat dung is also not allowed as a fuel for baking bread. 

Litter contamination was srs bzns back then.
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« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2013, 02:06:17 PM »

Quote
Again, where is this in Scripture?  It doesn't say anything about elephants, let alone the sex of the defecating elephant.  You are right, though, about the preference for human dung.
Mor, your ignorance is clearly showing here as a "cow" does not necessarily have to mean bovine, rather it is a gender specific entity.  A female elephant is called a "cow" just as a female bovine is called a "cow".  It is apparent that God in His mercy is allowing mankind to use dung from any number of animals assuming the female is used and it falls under the nomenclature of "cow" and not just the cattle colloquiate.

Other animals under consideration can be bison, African buffalo, camel, the aforementioned cattle and elephant, crocodile (interestingly enough), deer, dolphin, seals, giraffe, hippos, komodo dragons, moose, manatees, rhinos, termites, whales, wrens and yaks.

I do agree with your main point that human feces is ultimately the ideal.  I am going to bring this concern to my priest this Sunday.

Please note that it has been my experience that female humans are adverse to being called "cows", I have found.  Just as a point of reference.
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« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2013, 02:18:38 PM »

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Again, where is this in Scripture?  It doesn't say anything about elephants, let alone the sex of the defecating elephant.  You are right, though, about the preference for human dung.
Mor, your ignorance is clearly showing here as a "cow" does not necessarily have to mean bovine, rather it is a gender specific entity.  A female elephant is called a "cow" just as a female bovine is called a "cow".  It is apparent that God in His mercy is allowing mankind to use dung from any number of animals assuming the female is used and it falls under the nomenclature of "cow" and not just the cattle colloquiate.

Other animals under consideration can be bison, African buffalo, camel, the aforementioned cattle and elephant, crocodile (interestingly enough), deer, dolphin, seals, giraffe, hippos, komodo dragons, moose, manatees, rhinos, termites, whales, wrens and yaks.

I do agree with your main point that human feces is ultimately the ideal.  I am going to bring this concern to my priest this Sunday.

Please note that it has been my experience that female humans are adverse to being called "cows", I have found.  Just as a point of reference.

Thank you.  But should we not also consider the preference of dungs in terms of old testament dietary laws?  Are all of these animals (and by extension, their dung) Kosher?
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« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2013, 02:42:51 PM »

Quote
Again, where is this in Scripture?  It doesn't say anything about elephants, let alone the sex of the defecating elephant.  You are right, though, about the preference for human dung.
Mor, your ignorance is clearly showing here as a "cow" does not necessarily have to mean bovine, rather it is a gender specific entity.  A female elephant is called a "cow" just as a female bovine is called a "cow".  It is apparent that God in His mercy is allowing mankind to use dung from any number of animals assuming the female is used and it falls under the nomenclature of "cow" and not just the cattle colloquiate.

Other animals under consideration can be bison, African buffalo, camel, the aforementioned cattle and elephant, crocodile (interestingly enough), deer, dolphin, seals, giraffe, hippos, komodo dragons, moose, manatees, rhinos, termites, whales, wrens and yaks.

I do agree with your main point that human feces is ultimately the ideal.  I am going to bring this concern to my priest this Sunday.

Please note that it has been my experience that female humans are adverse to being called "cows", I have found.  Just as a point of reference.

Thank you.  But should we not also consider the preference of dungs in terms of old testament dietary laws?  Are all of these animals (and by extension, their dung) Kosher?

Hmm, this seems to be getting more complicated.  Perhaps Mor can examine the issue in light of the dietary laws.  Certainly an thread that would benefit from YiM's expertise.
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« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2013, 02:50:11 PM »

Mor, your ignorance is clearly showing here as a "cow" does not necessarily have to mean bovine, rather it is a gender specific entity.  A female elephant is called a "cow" just as a female bovine is called a "cow".  It is apparent that God in His mercy is allowing mankind to use dung from any number of animals assuming the female is used and it falls under the nomenclature of "cow" and not just the cattle colloquiate.

No, I believe you're wrong.  I will concede that "cow" as a gender specific term may be used beyond our female bovine friends (I don't know how accurate that is, but I don't want to do the research).  But since elephants were not common in Ezekiel's environment, I think it's clear what animal feces God is talking about.

It's quite a jump, though, to presume that God is allowing mankind to use feces from all sorts of female animals.  First of all, KNB1 is right, we need to consider what animals were considered Kosher.  After all, the cow dung was a concession for the sake of maintaining ritual purity.  Using female pig dung, for example, wouldn't work.  

The main point, however, is that these were OT types of the dispensation in Christ.  He fulfilled the types and figures of the Old Covenant.

Ezekiel was a priest (Ez. 1.3); Christ was the true high priest (Heb. 3.1).  A cow is female (Quote from TheTrisagion on Today at 02:06:17 PM); in Christ, there is neither male nor female (Gal. 3.28).  So it's clear from these and other passages I've already cited, that human dung only is to be used as the fuel in baking bread.

Quote
Please note that it has been my experience that female humans are adverse to being called "cows", I have found.  Just as a point of reference.

Please, let's be serious.  Everyone knows you should be kind to women (cf. I Pt. 3.7), this is neither the time nor the place for silliness to hijack this topic.  
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« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2013, 03:03:29 PM »

Mor, your ignorance is clearly showing here as a "cow" does not necessarily have to mean bovine, rather it is a gender specific entity.  A female elephant is called a "cow" just as a female bovine is called a "cow".  It is apparent that God in His mercy is allowing mankind to use dung from any number of animals assuming the female is used and it falls under the nomenclature of "cow" and not just the cattle colloquiate.

No, I believe you're wrong.  I will concede that "cow" as a gender specific term may be used beyond our female bovine friends (I don't know how accurate that is, but I don't want to do the research).  But since elephants were not common in Ezekiel's environment, I think it's clear what animal feces God is talking about.

It's quite a jump, though, to presume that God is allowing mankind to use feces from all sorts of female animals.  First of all, KNB1 is right, we need to consider what animals were considered Kosher.  After all, the cow dung was a concession for the sake of maintaining ritual purity.  Using female pig dung, for example, wouldn't work.  

The main point, however, is that these were OT types of the dispensation in Christ.  He fulfilled the types and figures of the Old Covenant.

Ezekiel was a priest (Ez. 1.3); Christ was the true high priest (Heb. 3.1).  A cow is female (Quote from TheTrisagion on Today at 02:06:17 PM); in Christ, there is neither male nor female (Gal. 3.28).  So it's clear from these and other passages I've already cited, that human dung only is to be used as the fuel in baking bread.

Quote
Please note that it has been my experience that female humans are adverse to being called "cows", I have found.  Just as a point of reference.

Please, let's be serious.  Everyone knows you should be kind to women (cf. I Pt. 3.7), this is neither the time nor the place for silliness to hijack this topic.  
Here is some helpful research into the nomenclature of "cow" and it's relation to various species.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animal_names

It is my concern that you are impressing 21st century language on early Christian teachings.  While "cow" may colloquially mean bovine today, it is not necessarily accurate to state it meant it back then.  Perhaps a Greek and Hebrew expert should analyze this to see what the original wording might mean.  If Ezekiel was indeed baking with termite dung, but due to our modern understandings and the failure of the Christians to maintain the tradition, we instead take it to mean cattle, this could significantly affect our understanding of proper breadmaking.

It was certainly not my intention to engage in silliness.  I was attempting to point out that female human dung is indeed different and distinct from "cow" dung and is not a subset thereof.  Hopefully, this clarifies the matter.
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« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2013, 03:18:21 PM »

"Unleavened bread" ... (ie) Falafel wafers
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« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2013, 03:27:00 PM »

Dear Mor,

I never thought of Bill Gates as an early-church kind of guy, but may have been wrong:

"Making energy from poop can be a good profit-making and social enterprise. That’s the aim of a research project at Columbia University, where a professor is getting a $1.5 million grant from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation to develop a waste-to-energy technology." -http://gigaom.com/2011/06/17/bill-gates-backs-fecal-to-fuel-tech/

This is old news.  Microsoft has been making money off of crap since Windows Vista at the latest.
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« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2013, 07:27:40 PM »

"Unleavened bread" ... (ie) Falafel wafers

Enono falafel d'haye works for me, just not for Jesus.  Smiley
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« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2013, 10:36:40 PM »

Jesusisiam has been awful quiet as of late.
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« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2013, 10:49:15 PM »

Jesusisiam has been awful quiet as of late.

It's like whack-a-mole. He just pops up somewhere else.

He is currently worrying about gold wedding bands or something.
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« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2013, 10:53:12 PM »

I have a serious inquiry that I would like to submit for your consideration at this time. Can we not manufacture turd-like replicas made from soy or corn, which are more environmentally friendly, cheaper to make and ship, easier to store, and less noxious to the senses? What would be wrong with these?
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« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2013, 11:05:53 PM »

Everything the Prophets do is for our edification, but not everything they did is for our imitation.

btw, I wholeheartedly agree with orthonorm on mor.

I don't now. Sometimes I think the Holy Prophet Elijah's slaying of the false prophets could well be imitated today.
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« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2013, 11:08:57 PM »

I have a serious inquiry that I would like to submit for your consideration at this time. Can we not manufacture turd-like replicas made from soy or corn, which are more environmentally friendly, cheaper to make and ship, easier to store, and less noxious to the senses? What would be wrong with these?

The same thing that's wrong with eating tofu hot dogs in Lent. Duh.
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« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2013, 11:23:48 PM »

I have a serious inquiry that I would like to submit for your consideration at this time. Can we not manufacture turd-like replicas made from soy or corn, which are more environmentally friendly, cheaper to make and ship, easier to store, and less noxious to the senses? What would be wrong with these?

The same thing that's wrong with eating tofu hot dogs in Lent. Duh.

Livestock and people release huge amounts of methane, that really hurt the environment, and causes global warming, and will eventually cause NYC and Miami to be under water. At some point we will have to make the change and eliminate the current methods for waste extraction. Why can't the Orthodox Church be an innovative leader for once?
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« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2013, 12:59:03 AM »

I have a serious inquiry that I would like to submit for your consideration at this time. Can we not manufacture turd-like replicas made from soy or corn, which are more environmentally friendly, cheaper to make and ship, easier to store, and less noxious to the senses? What would be wrong with these?

The same thing that's wrong with eating tofu hot dogs in Lent. Duh.

Livestock and people release huge amounts of methane, that really hurt the environment, and causes global warming, and will eventually cause NYC and Miami to be under water. At some point we will have to make the change and eliminate the current methods for waste extraction. Why can't the Orthodox Church be an innovative leader for once?
the only thing causing global warming is Al Gore's bank account. But put Chicago under water too, and we might have a deal.
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« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2013, 01:05:40 AM »

Jesusisiam has been awful quiet as of late.

It's like whack-a-mole. He just pops up somewhere else.

He is currently worrying about gold wedding bands or something.
Yeah. I recall they were selling rings made out of Trigger's poop.  Maybe that will work for him.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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