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yeshuaisiam
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« on: June 20, 2013, 06:41:52 PM »

The scriptures tell us not to adorn ourselves with costly array, including Gold.

Wedding rings were first a tradition of the pagans as well.

Should Christians be wearing them?
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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2013, 06:44:35 PM »

Should Christians be wearing them?

Only the married ones.
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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2013, 06:45:13 PM »

Do you walk around buck naked all the time?

Unless you do, you're wearing something that costs something.

How much more ridiculous are your threads going to get?
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« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2013, 06:45:25 PM »

Probably not. But then again, having a way to identify whether or not someone is married is good. I think the question is why does it have to be gold? Why not bronze, aluminum or even plastic? Both will get the job done (although, admittedly, gold doesn't deteriorate as easily over time). Besides, the meaning of the ring consists (or should consist) in the sentimental value of your marriage it represents, not on the quality of metal it is.
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« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2013, 06:45:58 PM »

Should Christians be wearing them?

Only the married ones.

Do you think gold ones okay despite being forbidden?
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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2013, 06:46:17 PM »

Do you walk around buck naked all the time?

Unless you do, you're wearing something that costs something.

How much more ridiculous are your threads going to get?

To be fair, if nudity became legal, I'd be the first one to do away with clothing Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2013, 06:47:49 PM »

Do you walk around buck naked all the time?

Unless you do, you're wearing something that costs something.

How much more ridiculous are your threads going to get?

Well the scriptures were describing gold, pearls, or costly array.  I'm sorry this is ridiculous to you...? I see Christians everywhere wearing gold, yet, the scriptures seem to forbid them.

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« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2013, 06:49:50 PM »

Probably not. But then again, having a way to identify whether or not someone is married is good. I think the question is why does it have to be gold? Why not bronze, aluminum or even plastic? Both will get the job done (although, admittedly, gold doesn't deteriorate as easily over time). Besides, the meaning of the ring consists (or should consist) in the sentimental value of your marriage it represents, not on the quality of metal it is.

I agree.  The main question I have is in the material used.   Tungsten will even get the job done and is very tough... 
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« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2013, 06:50:28 PM »

What are we talking about exactly? I wouldn't consider a $200 wedding ring costly or flashy...
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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2013, 06:50:50 PM »

Do you walk around buck naked all the time?

Unless you do, you're wearing something that costs something.

How much more ridiculous are your threads going to get?

To be fair, if nudity became legal, I'd be the first one to do away with clothing Smiley

I think it is in San Francisco.   Embarrassed  Something like that anyway.  I think there are nudists that walk around there.
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« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2013, 06:52:12 PM »

Do you walk around buck naked all the time?

Unless you do, you're wearing something that costs something.

How much more ridiculous are your threads going to get?

To be fair, if nudity became legal, I'd be the first one to do away with clothing Smiley

I think it is in San Francisco.   Embarrassed  Something like that anyway.  I think there are nudists that walk around there.

Only at our parades Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2013, 06:52:22 PM »

What are we talking about exactly? I wouldn't consider a $200 wedding ring costly or flashy...

Let's talk gold, since that was specifically mentioned in the scriptures.


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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2013, 06:52:43 PM »

What are we talking about exactly? I wouldn't consider a $200 wedding ring costly or flashy...

Let's talk gold, since that was specifically mentioned in the scriptures.

I was talking gold...
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« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2013, 06:55:16 PM »

What are we talking about exactly? I wouldn't consider a $200 wedding ring costly or flashy...

Let's talk gold, since that was specifically mentioned in the scriptures.

I was talking gold...

Like I guess a man's 10k gold ring could be $200 bucks.   Do you think the scriptures apply to something like this?
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« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2013, 06:56:22 PM »

Also, what about a woman's ring.  Let's say a $2000 1/2ct. diamond on an 18k gold band.
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« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2013, 06:57:25 PM »

Gold was used in Solomon's temple, and that was O. K.  Specifically, which Scriptures about gold and costly array are you referring to?
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« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2013, 06:57:44 PM »

Should Christians be wearing them?

Only the married ones.

Do you think gold ones okay despite being forbidden?

Like the ones St. Joseph wore in Egypt? Or the one the prodigal son received after his return? Or the ones Judith wore?

The scriptures tell us not to adorn ourselves with costly array, including Gold.

BINGO! Wedding rings are not adornments. They are symbol of God's blessing.

Have you ever been to a betrothal service?

I sometimes feel the Catholic Church was right forbidding people from reading Bibles by themselves.
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« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2013, 06:59:56 PM »

What are we talking about exactly? I wouldn't consider a $200 wedding ring costly or flashy...

Let's talk gold, since that was specifically mentioned in the scriptures.

I was talking gold...

A gold human? ...
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« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2013, 07:01:56 PM »

Should Christians be wearing them?

Only the married ones.

Do you think gold ones okay despite being forbidden?

Like the ones St. Joseph wore in Egypt? Or the one the prodigal son received after his return? Or the ones Judith wore?

The scriptures tell us not to adorn ourselves with costly array, including Gold.

BINGO! Wedding rings are not adornments. They are symbol of God's blessing.

Have you ever been to a betrothal service?

I sometimes feel the Catholic Church was right forbidding people from reading Bibles by themselves.

But the ring on the Prodigal son's hand wasn't mentioned to be gold.
The ring given to Joseph was from Pharaoh, and a pagan... (no mention on the ring being gold, but the necklace was gold).

Yes, I've been to a betrothal service.

This isn't so much about rings, as I'm just wondering what others think about gold/costly rings.  Array is something you wear....
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« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2013, 07:05:44 PM »

Gold was used in Solomon's temple, and that was O. K.  Specifically, which Scriptures about gold and costly array are you referring to?

1 Timothy 2:9 - In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

1 Peter 3:3 - Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;

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« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2013, 07:12:12 PM »

But the ring on the Prodigal son's hand wasn't mentioned to be gold.
The ring given to Joseph was from Pharaoh, and a pagan... (no mention on the ring being gold, but the necklace was gold).

Yeah, they were from bread.

Gold was used in Solomon's temple, and that was O. K.  Specifically, which Scriptures about gold and costly array are you referring to?

1 Timothy 2:9 - In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

1 Peter 3:3 - Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;



You still ignore the "adorning" clause. Wedding rigs are not for adorning. I suppose most people do not feel they make them prettier and wear them for socio-religious reasons.
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« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2013, 07:15:36 PM »

Gold was used in Solomon's temple, and that was O. K.  Specifically, which Scriptures about gold and costly array are you referring to?

That was for the purpose of God though...same with our Icon frames. And even then, several of the Fathers spoke against fancy, expensive adornments for the Church. So if fancy adornments for the Church are barely tolerated, what in the world convinces you that fancy adornments (such as a gold wedding ring) is acceptable for people to wear?
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« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2013, 07:16:05 PM »

But the ring on the Prodigal son's hand wasn't mentioned to be gold.
The ring given to Joseph was from Pharaoh, and a pagan... (no mention on the ring being gold, but the necklace was gold).

Yeah, they were from bread.

Gold was used in Solomon's temple, and that was O. K.  Specifically, which Scriptures about gold and costly array are you referring to?

1 Timothy 2:9 - In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

1 Peter 3:3 - Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;



You still ignore the "adorning" clause. Wedding rigs are not for adorning. I suppose most people do not feel they make them prettier and wear them for socio-religious reasons.

But that's my point, as adorning is to make something prettier, or more beautiful, or more attractive... Metals such as Tungsten or stainless steel are more durable, yet gold is used.   Huh
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« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2013, 07:22:34 PM »

Do you really think wedding rings are for adorning?
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« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2013, 07:38:56 PM »

Do you really think wedding rings are for adorning?

That's a good question, just to be sure, here is the definition of adorning -
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/adorning

Adorning is to "make prettier, enhance, beautify, etc."

A wedding ring itself could be made of anything simple.  As stated, tungsten, stainless steel, or even certain types of wood.   Today there are plastics...  I dunno...

But people buy gold, diamonds, etc., in their wedding rings.  It seems like they are indeed "adorning" something that they are wearing, or wearing fancy.

Array definition:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/array

By using the definitions, in context, it seems to state:

Do not "make prettier/fancier your what you wear", such as gold, pearls, hair, etc.

Seems to be an emphasis on plainness.

I agree with the symbolism Michal, it's just the non-plainness of that symbolism that I really question.   Why make fancier/more pretty the symbol with gold/diamonds? 

Just discussing, I'm not particularly conclusive.
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« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2013, 07:44:43 PM »

I wouldn't consider tungsten being more simple than gold.

OK, explain to me how are males who do not wear any jewellery adorned with golden rings? How? Do you think they want such adorning?
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« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2013, 07:45:38 PM »

Could costly/fancy array, gold, etc., have to do with Isaiah 3:18-25?


16 Moreover the Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:

17 Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover their secret parts.

18 In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon,

19 The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers,

20 The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings,

21 The rings, and nose jewels,

22 The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins,

23 The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the vails.

24 And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.

25 Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war.
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« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2013, 07:48:24 PM »

I wouldn't consider tungsten being more simple than gold.

OK, explain to me how are males who do not wear any jewellery adorned with golden rings? How? Do you think they want such adorning?

I don't know, it's a much less expensive metal.  $10-20 bucks for a tungsten ring.

I don't really know as far as the males go.   I agree it is symbolism, but I'm speaking of the adornment of the ring in and of itself.   Being a simple inexpensive metal rather than an expensive metal.   Not to make the ring "fancier/prettier/enhanced"...
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« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2013, 07:49:04 PM »

From the Orthodox betrothal service:

Lord our God, You journeyed with the servant of the Patriarch Abraham in Mesopotamia when he was sent to obtain a wife for his lord Isaac, and by means of drawing water You revealed that he should betroth Rebecca. Bless the betrothal of Your servants N. and M. and make firm the word that they have spoken. Confirm them with the holy unity that comes from You. For it was You who in the beginning created male and female, and it is by You that woman is linked to man as a helper and for the continuation of the human race. Therefore, Lord our God, who sent truth out to Your inheritance and your promise to your servants, our fathers, your elect in every generation, look on Your servant N. and Your servant M., and make firm their betrothal in faith and concord and truth and love. For it is You, Lord, who declared that times a pledge is to be given and made firm in everything. By a ring authority was given to Joseph in Egypt. By a ring Daniel was glorified in the country of Babylon. By a ring the truth of Thamar was revealed. By a ring our heavenly Father showed compassion to the prodigal son. For he said, ‘Put a ring on his hand and bring out and slay the fatted calf, and let us eat and be joyful’. It was Your right hand, Lord, that armed Moses at the Red Sea, for through Your true word the heavens were made firm and the earth set on its foundations. And the right hand of Your servants will be blessed by Your mighty word and by Your upraised arm. Therefore, Master, with Your heavenly blessing now bless also this putting-on of rings. And may an Angel of the Lord go before them all the days of their lives. For you are the One who blesses and sanctifies all things, and to You we give glory, to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and for ever, and to the ages of ages.

The richness of this prayer cannot be underestimated.
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« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2013, 07:54:45 PM »

I wouldn't consider tungsten being more simple than gold.

OK, explain to me how are males who do not wear any jewellery adorned with golden rings? How? Do you think they want such adorning?

Sadly some do. I see men who wear rings who ain't married. Weird to me.

Not a big fan of jewelry here save watches and I don't have the money to collect what I would like.

And I am too rough and tumble to be having all those pinch points around.
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« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2013, 08:02:17 PM »

I wouldn't consider tungsten being more simple than gold.

I don't know, it's a much less expensive metal.  $10-20 bucks for a tungsten ring.

It has some interesting properties gold does not have.
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« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2013, 08:03:28 PM »

From the Orthodox betrothal service:

Lord our God, You journeyed with the servant of the Patriarch Abraham in Mesopotamia when he was sent to obtain a wife for his lord Isaac, and by means of drawing water You revealed that he should betroth Rebecca. Bless the betrothal of Your servants N. and M. and make firm the word that they have spoken. Confirm them with the holy unity that comes from You. For it was You who in the beginning created male and female, and it is by You that woman is linked to man as a helper and for the continuation of the human race. Therefore, Lord our God, who sent truth out to Your inheritance and your promise to your servants, our fathers, your elect in every generation, look on Your servant N. and Your servant M., and make firm their betrothal in faith and concord and truth and love. For it is You, Lord, who declared that times a pledge is to be given and made firm in everything. By a ring authority was given to Joseph in Egypt. By a ring Daniel was glorified in the country of Babylon. By a ring the truth of Thamar was revealed. By a ring our heavenly Father showed compassion to the prodigal son. For he said, ‘Put a ring on his hand and bring out and slay the fatted calf, and let us eat and be joyful’. It was Your right hand, Lord, that armed Moses at the Red Sea, for through Your true word the heavens were made firm and the earth set on its foundations. And the right hand of Your servants will be blessed by Your mighty word and by Your upraised arm. Therefore, Master, with Your heavenly blessing now bless also this putting-on of rings. And may an Angel of the Lord go before them all the days of their lives. For you are the One who blesses and sanctifies all things, and to You we give glory, to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and for ever, and to the ages of ages.

The richness of this prayer cannot be underestimated.


Agree, in consideration,
The ring given to Joseph was by a pagan (not specified gold)
Daniel's lion den was sealed by a pagan with a ring (nebuchadnezzar)
Thamars truth was that she was going to be paid the ring for prostitution (with other stuff)

So that leaves the prodigal son.  Check.

That said, the story does not specify the ring type?   Our other scriptures speak against using gold or rich materials for any type of array.  

I'm more or less thinking about the gold/silver/diamonds in rings... Should Christians be using these riches in their rings?
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« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2013, 08:14:35 PM »

Should Christians be using these riches in their rings?

I feel like you've raised two issues in this thread:

1. Wedding rings are pagan and therefore inappropriate for Christians.
2. Wedding rings are made of costly materials and are therefore inappropriate for Christians (according to a possible interpretation of Scripture).

Which are you more concerned with? If #1, then #2 is a nonstarter.
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« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2013, 08:32:14 PM »

Why do you think tungsten is better than gold?

It's cheaper, but it's still not free; and it's attractive too, in its own way.

Is it just because it's cheaper than gold that you think it's sanctioned by Scripture?

And btw, as a woman who has been married within living memory ( Grin ), I would just like to add that I do NOT wear my gold wedding band and engagement ring because they're "attractive" (although they are!) but because they remind me of the vows that my husband and I made to each other on that most happy of days, six years ago.  Smiley
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« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2013, 09:16:18 PM »

Just to give some historical context, the suggested "non-costly" metals are modern products so they could not have been mentioned in the Bible

Tungsten was not isolated as an element until 1783
http://www.webelements.com/tungsten/

Stainless steel was not produced i quantity until the twentieth century though it is used by some jewelry makers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stainless_steel

As for plastics, aside from being modern they also can break or have other problems.

Both metals are not very malleable, whereas gold is very soft in comparison.  Gold also does not corrode under normal conditions nor react. 

Would a ring of any of the first three substances somehow not be tainted with a "pagan" connection?

Our marriage is 23 years old and we both wear very plain, narrow bands.  Yes, they're made of gold because it lasts without tarnishing.  They're not "adorning" or flash; they're a symbol of being married.  In our culture they're a traditional symbol and that's all. 

As to some 2K diamond, when we got engaged the diamond industry's slogan that year was "Is two months pay too much for something that will last forever?" 
We both said "Yes."   Wink

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« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2013, 09:37:09 PM »

Its not from pagan traditions. Wedding rings were used in the Jewish betrothal ceremony and are still used in the Orthodox betrothal ceremony. They are holy sacramentals. If you think the rings are "costly array", you should see the Orthodox marriage crowns. Nothing is particularly wrong with "adorning yourself". The problem comes when the glare of the jewels blind ones humility.
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« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2013, 09:56:47 PM »

I wouldn't consider tungsten being more simple than gold.

OK, explain to me how are males who do not wear any jewellery adorned with golden rings? How? Do you think they want such adorning?

I don't know, it's a much less expensive metal.  $10-20 bucks for a tungsten ring.

My 10K gold wedding band cost $35. My wife's was $25.
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« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2013, 10:33:35 PM »

Should Christians be wearing them?

Only the married ones.

Do you think gold ones okay despite being forbidden?

They are only forbidden in your mind.
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« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2013, 10:37:33 PM »

The scriptures tell us not to adorn ourselves with costly array, including Gold.

Wedding rings were first a tradition of the pagans as well.

Should Christians be wearing them?

 Interesting topic.  There's nothing wrong with wedding rings as they've been integrated into Christian tradition long ago.  I do think it's ridiculous how much people dole out for rings (and weddings for that matter) these days.  If anything, that might be the sin.    
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« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2013, 11:01:43 PM »

Gold was used in Solomon's temple, and that was O. K.  Specifically, which Scriptures about gold and costly array are you referring to?
1 Timothy 2:9 - In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

1 Peter 3:3 - Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;


I once heard that the dress that St. Paul was referring to was the dress of a prostitute.  In those days, prostitutes presented themselves in that fashion.  These days, I know many women who wear there hair in braids from time to time, in order to keep cool in summer.  If anyone thought they did so for the reason St. Paul wrote about, they would get a slap in the face.  In addition, the Orthodox Study Bible translates 1 Peter 3:3-4 as "Do not let your adornment be merely outward--arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel-- rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God."  I Peter 3:3-4 does not forbid gold, but is referring to people's attitude.
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« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2013, 11:33:42 PM »

Agree, in consideration,
The ring given to Joseph was by a pagan (not specified gold)
Daniel's lion den was sealed by a pagan with a ring (nebuchadnezzar)
Thamars truth was that she was going to be paid the ring for prostitution (with other stuff)

So that leaves the prodigal son.  Check.

That said, the story does not specify the ring type?   Our other scriptures speak against using gold or rich materials for any type of array.  

I'm more or less thinking about the gold/silver/diamonds in rings... Should Christians be using these riches in their rings?

Quote from: Genesis 24:52-53
When Abraham’s servant heard their words, he bowed himself to the ground before the Lord. And the servant brought out jewelry of silver and of gold, and garments, and gave them to Rebekah; he also gave to her brother and to her mother costly ornaments.

Quote from: 1 Peter 3:5
It was in this way long ago that the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves by accepting the authority of their husbands.
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« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2013, 01:01:00 AM »

How much more ridiculous are your threads going to get?

I hope this wasn't meant as a challenge. Wink
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« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2013, 01:02:42 AM »

How much more ridiculous are your threads going to get?

I hope this wasn't meant as a challenge. Wink

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« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2013, 01:10:43 AM »

Agree, in consideration,
The ring given to Joseph was by a pagan (not specified gold)
Daniel's lion den was sealed by a pagan with a ring (nebuchadnezzar)
Thamars truth was that she was going to be paid the ring for prostitution (with other stuff)

So that leaves the prodigal son.  Check.

That said, the story does not specify the ring type?   Our other scriptures speak against using gold or rich materials for any type of array.  

I'm more or less thinking about the gold/silver/diamonds in rings... Should Christians be using these riches in their rings?

Do you and your wife wear wedding/engagement rings?  If you don't, then why do you care what other people do?
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« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2013, 08:20:12 AM »

My wedding ring is made from enriched uranium.  Not flashy at all, but I do seem to continually develop tumors on my finger.
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« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2013, 08:37:43 AM »

My wedding ring is made from enriched uranium.  Not flashy at all, but I do seem to continually develop tumors on my finger.

 Cheesy

Wedding rings are made of gold, which is virtually immune to the vagaries of time and life, to denote the eternity of the bond they are an outward sign of. No more, no less. (Ours are two-tone, white centre with yellow edges, and set us back just under £300.)

If my husband had proposed with a gumball ring, I'd still have had him. But I'm happy I can save my white gold and aquamarine engagement ring (hopefully) for my future daughter-in-law.
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« Reply #46 on: June 21, 2013, 09:49:09 AM »

Gold was used in Solomon's temple, and that was O. K.  Specifically, which Scriptures about gold and costly array are you referring to?

1 Timothy 2:9 - In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

1 Peter 3:3 - Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;



So braids are out also?
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« Reply #47 on: June 21, 2013, 09:54:56 AM »

How much more ridiculous are your threads going to get?

Well, these threads are somewhat educational, if only in a cautionary way: to show the limitations and pitfalls of individual idiosyncratic interpretations of Scripture.
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« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2013, 10:13:55 AM »

In my opinion, if a wedding ring is a percentage of your paycheck then go for it.  I don't see how this is any more frivolous than the other things you would probably have spent the money on.  If the ring is a percentage of your yearly salary then you are probably being frivolous.  Furthermore, if the woman is demanding a ring that costs that much you probably ought to consider drawing her a map that ends at the curb.  My mother likes to quote a passage from the Good Book that I find much more compelling than the ones already quoted - it is better to live on the roof top than to share a bed with a contentious wife.  If the man is demanding an expensive ring...I have bad news for you ladies, he may never run off with another woman, but that doesn't mean he may never run off.   Shocked

The problem with spending too much on anything related to the wedding is that if you spend a little is helps weed out those who want to get married, just don't want to be married. 

As for materials, I love Tungsten but Gold is my favorite element.  It is just so beautiful!  I would rather have it in the form of the Krugerrand, personally, or potentially an ingot, but a ring could be ok.  I think that the plain gold ring has a degree of simplicity.  Despite the difference in costs, the Tungsten ring would be much more ostentatious and would probably violate the spirit of the rule moreso than the Gold one would.  As for diamonds, I have no use for them except on a drill bit.  They are WAAAAY overpriced compared to their worth and relative rarity.  And I don't know why some African kid needs to die for vanity's sake.  Screw that.  Rubies or Sapphires are much more pretty (and the sapphire is my GF's birthstone...mine too).  Otherwise, if someone were to be set on a diamond because they actually like that plain stone, then seeing if you could find a Russian lab diamond would probably be better than feeding the De Beers more money.
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« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2013, 10:15:04 AM »

I sometimes feel the Catholic Church was right forbidding people from reading Bibles by themselves.

I really want to disagree with you.  Really, really badly.  I just don't know if I can.
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« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2013, 10:49:37 AM »

How much more ridiculous are your threads going to get?

Well, these threads are somewhat educational, if only in a cautionary way: to show the limitations and pitfalls of individual idiosyncratic interpretations of Scripture.
+1
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« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2013, 10:51:19 AM »

Quote
As for diamonds, I have no use for them except on a drill bit.  They are WAAAAY overpriced compared to their worth and relative rarity.

I love moissanite, I just wish my wife would have accepted that instead of a diamond.  They are pretty and cheaper.
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« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2013, 10:57:15 AM »

Quote
As for diamonds, I have no use for them except on a drill bit.  They are WAAAAY overpriced compared to their worth and relative rarity.

I love moissanite, I just wish my wife would have accepted that instead of a diamond.  They are pretty and cheaper.

A carborundum-set ring? Sorry, I can't resist. All I can think of is wet-rub paper, separating disks and non-slip tape.  laugh laugh
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« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2013, 11:03:18 AM »

Quote
As for diamonds, I have no use for them except on a drill bit.  They are WAAAAY overpriced compared to their worth and relative rarity.

I love moissanite, I just wish my wife would have accepted that instead of a diamond.  They are pretty and cheaper.

A carborundum-set ring? Sorry, I can't resist. All I can think of is wet-rub paper, separating disks and non-slip tape.  laugh laugh
lol, hey it is better than highly compressed poop and dead animals. Why do women want to wear THAT on their hand?  Wink
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« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2013, 11:34:02 AM »

True story: when we got married, we got plain silver rings (I'm allergic to gold - no kidding!), bought them at Target, and a silver "claddagh" ring as an engagement ring (also very inexpensive). When we had our marriage blessed in the Orthodox Church, my husband got me another silver ring to wear on my right hand.
It is inscribed: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."
I never take either one off.
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« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2013, 11:46:15 AM »

True story: when we got married, we got plain silver rings (I'm allergic to gold - no kidding!), bought them at Target, and a silver "claddagh" ring as an engagement ring (also very inexpensive). When we had our marriage blessed in the Orthodox Church, my husband got me another silver ring to wear on my right hand.
It is inscribed: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."
I never take either one off.

Actually the rubrics of some older Euchologia speak of a golden (or ... iron) ring for the groom and a silver one for the bride.
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« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2013, 11:53:16 AM »

True story: when we got married, we got plain silver rings (I'm allergic to gold - no kidding!), bought them at Target, and a silver "claddagh" ring as an engagement ring (also very inexpensive). When we had our marriage blessed in the Orthodox Church, my husband got me another silver ring to wear on my right hand.
It is inscribed: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."
I never take either one off.

Actually the rubrics of some older Euchologia speak of a golden (or ... iron) ring for the groom and a silver one for the bride.

What, he gets gold and I get a measly silver ring? I don't think so!  Wink
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« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2013, 12:20:46 PM »

True story: when we got married, we got plain silver rings (I'm allergic to gold - no kidding!), bought them at Target...
Costly adornment, straight out of an unlabeled drawer at Walmart.
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« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2013, 12:32:00 PM »

True story: when we got married, we got plain silver rings (I'm allergic to gold - no kidding!), bought them at Target...
Costly adornment, straight out of an unlabeled drawer at Walmart.

Okay - I did some back catalogue searching:

My engagement ring
Our wedding rings

Sheesh, prices have rocketed since the beginning of the recession...
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« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2013, 12:38:16 PM »

True story: when we got married, we got plain silver rings (I'm allergic to gold - no kidding!), bought them at Target...
Costly adornment, straight out of an unlabeled drawer at Walmart.

Okay - I did some back catalogue searching:

My engagement ring
Our wedding rings

Sheesh, prices have rocketed since the beginning of the recession...

Both silver and gold skyrocketted.  Add in some obscene mark-up and voila!  I wonder if rings were more expensive a year ago, as precious metals have been going down?
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« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2013, 03:52:11 PM »

I like diamonds. Sue me. Wink Actually, the diamond in my engagement ring was my grandmother's (who I am extremely close to), so besides its meaning as it relates to my marriage, it is extraordinarily meaningful to me because it was hers. Now, the diamonds on my neck and d-diamonds on my grille are another story.
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« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2013, 09:53:34 PM »

Gold was used in Solomon's temple, and that was O. K.  Specifically, which Scriptures about gold and costly array are you referring to?

1 Timothy 2:9 - In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

1 Peter 3:3 - Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;



So braids are out also?

You'd have to ask Peter.   Undecided  He wrote it.
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« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2013, 09:54:25 PM »

How much more ridiculous are your threads going to get?

Well, these threads are somewhat educational, if only in a cautionary way: to show the limitations and pitfalls of individual idiosyncratic interpretations of Scripture.

That's why I'm asking.  So what would your interpretation be of 1 Peter 3:3 ?
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« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2013, 09:57:24 PM »

True story: when we got married, we got plain silver rings (I'm allergic to gold - no kidding!), bought them at Target...
Costly adornment, straight out of an unlabeled drawer at Walmart.

According to the scriptures, they say Gold is.   Huh     It tells us not to adorn ourselves with Gold, straight up.  Hence the concern.
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« Reply #64 on: June 21, 2013, 10:51:03 PM »

The scriptures tell us not to adorn ourselves with costly array, including Gold.

Wedding rings were first a tradition of the pagans as well.

Should Christians be wearing them?
James (2:2) the Brother of God had no problem with it.  But feel free to make problems for yourself.
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« Reply #65 on: June 21, 2013, 10:54:19 PM »

The scriptures tell us not to adorn ourselves with costly array, including Gold.

Wedding rings were first a tradition of the pagans as well.

Should Christians be wearing them?
James (2:2) the Brother of God had no problem with it.  But feel free to make problems for yourself.

That didn't give a Christian permission to wear gold, it merely talked about not treating people badly based on their appearance.
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« Reply #66 on: June 21, 2013, 10:56:18 PM »

True story: when we got married, we got plain silver rings (I'm allergic to gold - no kidding!), bought them at Target, and a silver "claddagh" ring as an engagement ring (also very inexpensive). When we had our marriage blessed in the Orthodox Church, my husband got me another silver ring to wear on my right hand.
It is inscribed: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."
I never take either one off.

Actually the rubrics of some older Euchologia speak of a golden (or ... iron) ring for the groom and a silver one for the bride.

Iron wedding crowns are so much cooler than flowers.
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« Reply #67 on: June 21, 2013, 10:58:21 PM »

True story: when we got married, we got plain silver rings (I'm allergic to gold - no kidding!), bought them at Target...
Costly adornment, straight out of an unlabeled drawer at Walmart.

According to the scriptures, they say Gold is.   Huh     It tells us not to adorn ourselves with Gold, straight up.  Hence the concern.

I think your capitalization of gold is concerning.
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« Reply #68 on: June 21, 2013, 11:03:11 PM »

How much more ridiculous are your threads going to get?

Well, these threads are somewhat educational, if only in a cautionary way: to show the limitations and pitfalls of individual idiosyncratic interpretations of Scripture.

That's why I'm asking.  So what would your interpretation be of 1 Peter 3:3 ?
Easy: the gold shouldn't be gold plating, but solid gold down to the heart.
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« Reply #69 on: June 21, 2013, 11:04:11 PM »

The scriptures tell us not to adorn ourselves with costly array, including Gold.

Wedding rings were first a tradition of the pagans as well.

Should Christians be wearing them?
James (2:2) the Brother of God had no problem with it.  But feel free to make problems for yourself.
That didn't give a Christian permission to wear gold, it merely talked about not treating people badly based on their appearance.
You notice (of course you didn't) that they let the gold wearer into the Assembly.
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« Reply #70 on: June 21, 2013, 11:09:09 PM »

Should Christians be wearing them?

Only the married ones.

Do you think gold ones okay despite being forbidden?
Since they are not forbidden (except to Sunni Muslims) not a problem.
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« Reply #71 on: June 21, 2013, 11:09:32 PM »

True story: when we got married, we got plain silver rings (I'm allergic to gold - no kidding!), bought them at Target...
Costly adornment, straight out of an unlabeled drawer at Walmart.

According to the scriptures, they say Gold is.   Huh     It tells us not to adorn ourselves with Gold, straight up.  Hence the concern.

I think your capitalization of gold is concerning.

Smiley   Glad you noticed.   God Bless.
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« Reply #72 on: June 21, 2013, 11:10:22 PM »

Do you walk around buck naked all the time?

Unless you do, you're wearing something that costs something.

How much more ridiculous are your threads going to get?

Well the scriptures were describing gold, pearls, or costly array.  I'm sorry this is ridiculous to you...? I see Christians everywhere wearing gold, yet, the scriptures seem to forbid them.
only to the unstable who are twisting the Scriptures to their own destruction.
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« Reply #73 on: June 21, 2013, 11:25:59 PM »

True story: when we got married, we got plain silver rings (I'm allergic to gold - no kidding!), bought them at Target, and a silver "claddagh" ring as an engagement ring (also very inexpensive). When we had our marriage blessed in the Orthodox Church, my husband got me another silver ring to wear on my right hand.
It is inscribed: "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."
I never take either one off.
I have to wear gold.  Other metals deterriate on me.
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« Reply #74 on: June 21, 2013, 11:26:10 PM »

Probably not. But then again, having a way to identify whether or not someone is married is good. I think the question is why does it have to be gold? Why not bronze, aluminum or even plastic? Both will get the job done (although, admittedly, gold doesn't deteriorate as easily over time). Besides, the meaning of the ring consists (or should consist) in the sentimental value of your marriage it represents, not on the quality of metal it is.

I agree.  The main question I have is in the material used.   Tungsten will even get the job done and is very tough... 
Not really.  The idea is to have the wedding ring be distinctive.  Tungsten is not.
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« Reply #75 on: June 21, 2013, 11:30:04 PM »

Do you walk around buck naked all the time?

Unless you do, you're wearing something that costs something.

How much more ridiculous are your threads going to get?

Well the scriptures were describing gold, pearls, or costly array.  I'm sorry this is ridiculous to you...? I see Christians everywhere wearing gold, yet, the scriptures seem to forbid them.
only to the unstable who are twisting the Scriptures to their own destruction.

Could you PLEASE explain to me (I am not arguing with you just want an explanation), how when the scriptures say "Do not wear gold", I am unstable and twisting the scriptures by stating "Christians shouldn't wear gold". 

Seriously, I just want to know how I am twisting, distorting, or misconstruing the scriptures??
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« Reply #76 on: June 21, 2013, 11:33:11 PM »

Do you walk around buck naked all the time?

Unless you do, you're wearing something that costs something.

How much more ridiculous are your threads going to get?

Well the scriptures were describing gold, pearls, or costly array.  I'm sorry this is ridiculous to you...? I see Christians everywhere wearing gold, yet, the scriptures seem to forbid them.
only to the unstable who are twisting the Scriptures to their own destruction.

Could you PLEASE explain to me (I am not arguing with you just want an explanation), how when the scriptures say "Do not wear gold", I am unstable and twisting the scriptures by stating "Christians shouldn't wear gold". 

Seriously, I just want to know how I am twisting, distorting, or misconstruing the scriptures??
For starters, reading into them "Do not wear gold" where no such verse exists.
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« Reply #77 on: June 21, 2013, 11:49:44 PM »

Could costly/fancy array, gold, etc., have to do with Isaiah 3:18-25?


16 Moreover the Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:

17 Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover their secret parts.

18 In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon,

19 The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers,

20 The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings,

21 The rings, and nose jewels,

22 The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins,

23 The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the vails.

24 And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.

25 Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war.

No. With Ezekiel 16:8-14

8Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.

9Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.

10I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk.

11I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck.

12And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head.

13Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.

14And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD.

And of course Genesis 24:12-22

12And he said, O LORD God of my master Abraham, I pray thee, send me good speed this day, and shew kindness unto my master Abraham.

13Behold, I stand here by the well of water; and the daughters of the men of the city come out to draw water:

14And let it come to pass, that the damsel to whom I shall say, Let down thy pitcher, I pray thee, that I may drink; and she shall say, Drink, and I will give thy camels drink also: let the same be she that thou hast appointed for thy servant Isaac; and thereby shall I know that thou hast shewed kindness unto my master.

15And it came to pass, before he had done speaking, that, behold, Rebekah came out, who was born to Bethuel, son of Milcah, the wife of Nahor, Abraham's brother, with her pitcher upon her shoulder.

16And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her: and she went down to the well, and filled her pitcher, and came up.

17And the servant ran to meet her, and said, Let me, I pray thee, drink a little water of thy pitcher.

18And she said, Drink, my lord: and she hasted, and let down her pitcher upon her hand, and gave him drink.

19And when she had done giving him drink, she said, I will draw water for thy camels also, until they have done drinking.

20And she hasted, and emptied her pitcher into the trough, and ran again unto the well to draw water, and drew for all his camels.

21And the man wondering at her held his peace, to wit whether the LORD had made his journey prosperous or not.

22And it came to pass, as the camels had done drinking, that the man took a golden earring of half a shekel weight, and two bracelets for her hands of ten shekels weight of gold

And Haggai 2:23: In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the LORD, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith the LORD of hosts.

IIRC, they are all mentioned in the genealogy of the Christ.
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« Reply #78 on: June 22, 2013, 12:01:44 AM »

From the Orthodox betrothal service:

Lord our God, You journeyed with the servant of the Patriarch Abraham in Mesopotamia when he was sent to obtain a wife for his lord Isaac, and by means of drawing water You revealed that he should betroth Rebecca. Bless the betrothal of Your servants N. and M. and make firm the word that they have spoken. Confirm them with the holy unity that comes from You. For it was You who in the beginning created male and female, and it is by You that woman is linked to man as a helper and for the continuation of the human race. Therefore, Lord our God, who sent truth out to Your inheritance and your promise to your servants, our fathers, your elect in every generation, look on Your servant N. and Your servant M., and make firm their betrothal in faith and concord and truth and love. For it is You, Lord, who declared that times a pledge is to be given and made firm in everything. By a ring authority was given to Joseph in Egypt. By a ring Daniel was glorified in the country of Babylon. By a ring the truth of Thamar was revealed. By a ring our heavenly Father showed compassion to the prodigal son. For he said, ‘Put a ring on his hand and bring out and slay the fatted calf, and let us eat and be joyful’. It was Your right hand, Lord, that armed Moses at the Red Sea, for through Your true word the heavens were made firm and the earth set on its foundations. And the right hand of Your servants will be blessed by Your mighty word and by Your upraised arm. Therefore, Master, with Your heavenly blessing now bless also this putting-on of rings. And may an Angel of the Lord go before them all the days of their lives. For you are the One who blesses and sanctifies all things, and to You we give glory, to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and for ever, and to the ages of ages.

The richness of this prayer cannot be underestimated.


Agree, in consideration,
The ring given to Joseph was by a pagan (not specified gold)
One to whom, unlike you, God revealed His Word.
Daniel's lion den was sealed by a pagan with a ring (nebuchadnezzar)
The same one who raised up God's Temple.
Thamars truth was that she was going to be paid the ring for prostitution (with other stuff)
No, your lie.  Thamar was paid a goat.  The ring was Judah's word and pledge (the same mentioned in the genealogy of the Christ).

So that leaves the prodigal son.  Check.
Not really, but that is more than enough.

That said, the story does not specify the ring type?   Our other scriptures speak against using gold or rich materials for any type of array.
 
Your ignorance of the Scriptures is showing.  Again.

I'm more or less thinking about the gold/silver/diamonds in rings... Should Christians be using these riches in their rings?
Yes.
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« Reply #79 on: June 22, 2013, 08:30:44 PM »

Gold was used in Solomon's temple, and that was O. K.  Specifically, which Scriptures about gold and costly array are you referring to?

1 Timothy 2:9 - In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

1 Peter 3:3 - Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;



So braids are out also?

You'd have to ask Peter.   Undecided  He wrote it.

What about gold plaits?  Grin
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« Reply #80 on: June 22, 2013, 10:12:20 PM »

Do you walk around buck naked all the time?

Unless you do, you're wearing something that costs something.

How much more ridiculous are your threads going to get?

Well the scriptures were describing gold, pearls, or costly array.  I'm sorry this is ridiculous to you...? I see Christians everywhere wearing gold, yet, the scriptures seem to forbid them.
only to the unstable who are twisting the Scriptures to their own destruction.

Could you PLEASE explain to me (I am not arguing with you just want an explanation), how when the scriptures say "Do not wear gold", I am unstable and twisting the scriptures by stating "Christians shouldn't wear gold". 

Seriously, I just want to know how I am twisting, distorting, or misconstruing the scriptures??

You're not in the least. Like usual, people's arguments against the plain simple meaning of the Bible are facile. Abraham gave his wives rings, so apparently Babylonian and proto-Bedouin cultural traditions trump Jesus? The metaphorical adorning Israel with jewels as a reward does too, apparently. These arguments don't even make an iota of sense, yet everyone is always giving each other pats on the back like they nailed it. Its like a horror movie where people have no reasoning at all.
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« Reply #81 on: June 22, 2013, 10:24:09 PM »

... and a silver "claddagh" ring as an engagement ring (also very inexpensive).

 Cool!  My wedding ring is actually a silver claddagh straight from Erin.
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« Reply #82 on: June 22, 2013, 11:32:39 PM »

Do you walk around buck naked all the time?

Unless you do, you're wearing something that costs something.

How much more ridiculous are your threads going to get?

Well the scriptures were describing gold, pearls, or costly array.  I'm sorry this is ridiculous to you...? I see Christians everywhere wearing gold, yet, the scriptures seem to forbid them.
only to the unstable who are twisting the Scriptures to their own destruction.

Could you PLEASE explain to me (I am not arguing with you just want an explanation), how when the scriptures say "Do not wear gold", I am unstable and twisting the scriptures by stating "Christians shouldn't wear gold".  

Seriously, I just want to know how I am twisting, distorting, or misconstruing the scriptures??

You're not in the least. Like usual, people's arguments against the plain simple meaning of the Bible are facile. Abraham gave his wives rings, so apparently Babylonian and proto-Bedouin cultural traditions trump Jesus? The metaphorical adorning Israel with jewels as a reward does too, apparently.
Well, well. That "Amen!" from the corner of the choir means Jesusisam has made his first proselyte. Matthew 23:15.

Cultural traditions in the Middle East don't trump Jesus.  Just your attempts to put words in His mouth.  He didn't say a thing against wearing rings, even of gold: in fact, reflecting those cultural traditions He specifies the Father put a ring (the same, according to the text, like the Babylonians) on the Prodigal's finger.  Nor did His (step)brother St. James, nor His Apostle St. Peter.

The metaphorical adorning of Israel?  Like this?:
Could costly/fancy array, gold, etc., have to do with Isaiah 3:18-25?


16 Moreover the Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:

17 Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover their secret parts.

18 In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon,

19 The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers,

20 The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings,

21 The rings, and nose jewels,

22 The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins,

23 The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the vails.

24 And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.

25 Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war.

These arguments don't even make an iota of sense, yet everyone is always giving each other pats on the back like they nailed it.
And yet you pat Jesusiam's back for not making an iota of sense.

Its like a horror movie where people have no reasoning at all.
we'll have to bow to your expertise on that
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« Reply #83 on: June 22, 2013, 11:35:08 PM »

I hope those against wearing gold due to misguided religious notions hate their parents.
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« Reply #84 on: June 22, 2013, 11:54:32 PM »

...and bake bread over flaming hot human feces. 
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« Reply #85 on: June 23, 2013, 12:20:44 AM »

This December is our 17th wedding anniversary. So our wedding rings were bought some time ago.

My husband as a comfort fit (this means rounded edges) white gold band. I paid about $100 for it. We recently had to re-rhodium plated so it is nice and shiny again. I believe the current appraisal on it (had to have one before it was rhodium plated again) was about $400 or so?

My husband paid about $400 for my engagement and wedding ring together. It is a set. The engagement ring had 2 emeralds, the wedding band has 1 emerald. They are soldered together. I believe the set appraised for closer to 1k now. I specifically told him that I didn't want diamonds until our diamond anniversary.

Using a less expensive medium could mean that you will have to replace the rings more often. I know that having emeralds rather than diamonds has been a slight hassle for me. Diamonds can be heated up without issue for re-sizing etc. My emeralds have to be removed for any work that is done on my rings.
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« Reply #86 on: June 23, 2013, 05:25:23 AM »

True story: when we got married, we got plain silver rings (I'm allergic to gold - no kidding!), bought them at Target...
Costly adornment, straight out of an unlabeled drawer at Walmart.

I've been looking for the owner of this fist for some time now. You have a certain evening to answer for dear sir.
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« Reply #87 on: June 23, 2013, 11:59:55 AM »

My wedding ring is made from enriched uranium.  Not flashy at all, but I do seem to continually develop tumors on my finger.

The first time I scanned that I saw 'spent uranium' i.e. depleted and thought "that would be heavy".  I worked on a system long ago that used slugs made of that as ammo so I know about their heft.  However, I found out that they use Tungsten for them now.. which brings us (sort of) on subject  Wink

I've known people who had silver wedding rings, too.  I still don't understand how a ring being given by a "pagan" somehow taints the idea of rings.
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« Reply #88 on: June 23, 2013, 05:42:32 PM »

My wedding ring is made from enriched uranium.  Not flashy at all, but I do seem to continually develop tumors on my finger.

The first time I scanned that I saw 'spent uranium' i.e. depleted and thought "that would be heavy".  I worked on a system long ago that used slugs made of that as ammo so I know about their heft.  However, I found out that they use Tungsten for them now.. which brings us (sort of) on subject  Wink

I've known people who had silver wedding rings, too.  I still don't understand how a ring being given by a "pagan" somehow taints the idea of rings.
Because a pagan did it.  I don't know how they (jesusiam and his disciple Jason Wike) stand the alphabet to read the Bible.
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« Reply #89 on: June 23, 2013, 06:34:24 PM »

My wedding ring is made from enriched uranium.  Not flashy at all, but I do seem to continually develop tumors on my finger.

The first time I scanned that I saw 'spent uranium' i.e. depleted and thought "that would be heavy".  I worked on a system long ago that used slugs made of that as ammo so I know about their heft.  However, I found out that they use Tungsten for them now.. which brings us (sort of) on subject  Wink

I've known people who had silver wedding rings, too.  I still don't understand how a ring being given by a "pagan" somehow taints the idea of rings.
Because a pagan did it.  I don't know how they (jesusiam and his disciple Jason Wike) stand the alphabet to read the Bible.

No problem with a 'pagan did it', just going with the very plain, basic reading of the bible and not  jumping through hoops to say "Oh, he didn't really mean that" so I can keep all the 20th century middle class affectations of modern American/European society. Heck, actually the pagans look better because there's no church that doesn't take something simple and indisputable in the bible and ignore it - there's nothing that distinguishes any Christian from a non-Christian anymore.
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« Reply #90 on: June 23, 2013, 06:46:32 PM »

Well, well. That "Amen!" from the corner of the choir means Jesusisam has made his first proselyte. Matthew 23:15.


Come on, you guys anathematize people for not kissing icons (which, by now, nearly everyone has admitting wasn't done in the early church and is a development) and you're throwing around "pharisee."

Quote
Cultural traditions in the Middle East don't trump Jesus.  Just your attempts to put words in His mouth.  He didn't say a thing against wearing rings, even of gold: in fact, reflecting those cultural traditions He specifies the Father put a ring (the same, according to the text, like the Babylonians) on the Prodigal's finger.  Nor did His (step)brother St. James, nor His Apostle St. Peter.

So St.  Paul and Peter just made things up in their epistles, they're not the teaching of Jesus? And there is a difference between God giving someone something, and adorning ourselves. Just as there is between attempting to get what God destined for us on our own without him or with him.
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« Reply #91 on: June 23, 2013, 10:20:15 PM »

Could costly/fancy array, gold, etc., have to do with Isaiah 3:18-25?


16 Moreover the Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:

17 Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover their secret parts.

18 In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon,

19 The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers,

20 The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings,

21 The rings, and nose jewels,

22 The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins,

23 The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the vails.

24 And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.

25 Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war.

No. With Ezekiel 16:8-14

8Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.

9Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.

10I clothed thee also with broidered work, and shod thee with badgers' skin, and I girded thee about with fine linen, and I covered thee with silk.

11I decked thee also with ornaments, and I put bracelets upon thy hands, and a chain on thy neck.

12And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head.

13Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.

14And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD.

And of course Genesis 24:12-22

12And he said, O LORD God of my master Abraham, I pray thee, send me good speed this day, and shew kindness unto my master Abraham.

13Behold, I stand here by the well of water; and the daughters of the men of the city come out to draw water:

14And let it come to pass, that the damsel to whom I shall say, Let down thy pitcher, I pray thee, that I may drink; and she shall say, Drink, and I will give thy camels drink also: let the same be she that thou hast appointed for thy servant Isaac; and thereby shall I know that thou hast shewed kindness unto my master.

15And it came to pass, before he had done speaking, that, behold, Rebekah came out, who was born to Bethuel, son of Milcah, the wife of Nahor, Abraham's brother, with her pitcher upon her shoulder.

16And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her: and she went down to the well, and filled her pitcher, and came up.

17And the servant ran to meet her, and said, Let me, I pray thee, drink a little water of thy pitcher.

18And she said, Drink, my lord: and she hasted, and let down her pitcher upon her hand, and gave him drink.

19And when she had done giving him drink, she said, I will draw water for thy camels also, until they have done drinking.

20And she hasted, and emptied her pitcher into the trough, and ran again unto the well to draw water, and drew for all his camels.

21And the man wondering at her held his peace, to wit whether the LORD had made his journey prosperous or not.

22And it came to pass, as the camels had done drinking, that the man took a golden earring of half a shekel weight, and two bracelets for her hands of ten shekels weight of gold

And Haggai 2:23: In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the LORD, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith the LORD of hosts.

IIRC, they are all mentioned in the genealogy of the Christ.

Yes, and the new covenant apostles told us to not adorn ourselves with Gold, I already quoted the scriptures several times.
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« Reply #92 on: June 23, 2013, 10:23:15 PM »

From the Orthodox betrothal service:

Lord our God, You journeyed with the servant of the Patriarch Abraham in Mesopotamia when he was sent to obtain a wife for his lord Isaac, and by means of drawing water You revealed that he should betroth Rebecca. Bless the betrothal of Your servants N. and M. and make firm the word that they have spoken. Confirm them with the holy unity that comes from You. For it was You who in the beginning created male and female, and it is by You that woman is linked to man as a helper and for the continuation of the human race. Therefore, Lord our God, who sent truth out to Your inheritance and your promise to your servants, our fathers, your elect in every generation, look on Your servant N. and Your servant M., and make firm their betrothal in faith and concord and truth and love. For it is You, Lord, who declared that times a pledge is to be given and made firm in everything. By a ring authority was given to Joseph in Egypt. By a ring Daniel was glorified in the country of Babylon. By a ring the truth of Thamar was revealed. By a ring our heavenly Father showed compassion to the prodigal son. For he said, ‘Put a ring on his hand and bring out and slay the fatted calf, and let us eat and be joyful’. It was Your right hand, Lord, that armed Moses at the Red Sea, for through Your true word the heavens were made firm and the earth set on its foundations. And the right hand of Your servants will be blessed by Your mighty word and by Your upraised arm. Therefore, Master, with Your heavenly blessing now bless also this putting-on of rings. And may an Angel of the Lord go before them all the days of their lives. For you are the One who blesses and sanctifies all things, and to You we give glory, to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and for ever, and to the ages of ages.

The richness of this prayer cannot be underestimated.


Agree, in consideration,
The ring given to Joseph was by a pagan (not specified gold)
One to whom, unlike you, God revealed His Word.
Daniel's lion den was sealed by a pagan with a ring (nebuchadnezzar)
The same one who raised up God's Temple.
Thamars truth was that she was going to be paid the ring for prostitution (with other stuff)
No, your lie.  Thamar was paid a goat.  The ring was Judah's word and pledge (the same mentioned in the genealogy of the Christ).

So that leaves the prodigal son.  Check.
Not really, but that is more than enough.

That said, the story does not specify the ring type?   Our other scriptures speak against using gold or rich materials for any type of array.
 
Your ignorance of the Scriptures is showing.  Again.

I'm more or less thinking about the gold/silver/diamonds in rings... Should Christians be using these riches in their rings?
Yes.

Okay so other than your cheap shots,

1 Peter 3:3 - 3Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear—

You are wanting to throw the teachings of Peter away...
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« Reply #93 on: June 23, 2013, 10:27:50 PM »

Well, well. That "Amen!" from the corner of the choir means Jesusisam has made his first proselyte. Matthew 23:15.


Come on, you guys anathematize people for not kissing icons (which, by now, nearly everyone has admitting wasn't done in the early church and is a development) and you're throwing around "pharisee."

Quote
Cultural traditions in the Middle East don't trump Jesus.  Just your attempts to put words in His mouth.  He didn't say a thing against wearing rings, even of gold: in fact, reflecting those cultural traditions He specifies the Father put a ring (the same, according to the text, like the Babylonians) on the Prodigal's finger.  Nor did His (step)brother St. James, nor His Apostle St. Peter.

So St.  Paul and Peter just made things up in their epistles, they're not the teaching of Jesus? And there is a difference between God giving someone something, and adorning ourselves. Just as there is between attempting to get what God destined for us on our own without him or with him.


It's because they could care less what the apostles did, Christ did or commanded, or what the early Christians did.

The apostles say don't wear Gold in two different places, the EO wear gold.   It's just one more way the EO church defies the scriptures and the commands of Christ.

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« Reply #94 on: June 23, 2013, 10:29:44 PM »

Gold was used in Solomon's temple, and that was O. K.  Specifically, which Scriptures about gold and costly array are you referring to?

1 Timothy 2:9 - In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

1 Peter 3:3 - Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;



So braids are out also?

You'd have to ask Peter.   Undecided  He wrote it.

What about gold plaits?  Grin

I guess defying the scriptures is amusing.  They wrote them for a reason.  Think about it.
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« Reply #95 on: June 23, 2013, 10:39:19 PM »

Do you walk around buck naked all the time?

Unless you do, you're wearing something that costs something.

How much more ridiculous are your threads going to get?

Well the scriptures were describing gold, pearls, or costly array.  I'm sorry this is ridiculous to you...? I see Christians everywhere wearing gold, yet, the scriptures seem to forbid them.
only to the unstable who are twisting the Scriptures to their own destruction.

Could you PLEASE explain to me (I am not arguing with you just want an explanation), how when the scriptures say "Do not wear gold", I am unstable and twisting the scriptures by stating "Christians shouldn't wear gold".  

Seriously, I just want to know how I am twisting, distorting, or misconstruing the scriptures??

You're not in the least. Like usual, people's arguments against the plain simple meaning of the Bible are facile. Abraham gave his wives rings, so apparently Babylonian and proto-Bedouin cultural traditions trump Jesus? The metaphorical adorning Israel with jewels as a reward does too, apparently.
Well, well. That "Amen!" from the corner of the choir means Jesusisam has made his first proselyte. Matthew 23:15.

Cultural traditions in the Middle East don't trump Jesus.  Just your attempts to put words in His mouth.  He didn't say a thing against wearing rings, even of gold: in fact, reflecting those cultural traditions He specifies the Father put a ring (the same, according to the text, like the Babylonians) on the Prodigal's finger.  Nor did His (step)brother St. James, nor His Apostle St. Peter.

The metaphorical adorning of Israel?  Like this?:
Could costly/fancy array, gold, etc., have to do with Isaiah 3:18-25?


16 Moreover the Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:

17 Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover their secret parts.

18 In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon,

19 The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers,

20 The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings,

21 The rings, and nose jewels,

22 The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins,

23 The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the vails.

24 And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.

25 Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war.

These arguments don't even make an iota of sense, yet everyone is always giving each other pats on the back like they nailed it.
And yet you pat Jesusiam's back for not making an iota of sense.

Its like a horror movie where people have no reasoning at all.
we'll have to bow to your expertise on that


Heh, I don't even know what to say to this guy.  To simply say that Peter did not tell people not to wear gold fully discredits your arguments.

Also, if you read the story of the prodigal son, it didn't mention what the ring was made from.

Look people, like it or not, the scriptures SPECIFICALLY mention the following:

1 Peter 3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
t
1 Timothy 2:9 9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

So if you want to continue the argument, continue to wear costly array, it seems as though you really don't care one flip about the scriptures.  Read them.   It's really easy to do.  There is not a bend, twist, or deluded understanding here.  They were talking about style/clothing/fashion/apparel in context, and specifically mentioned gold.

So are you Christians or just something else?  I mean it's RIGHT ^^^^ there in plain text.  Reference you bibles in Greek if you want too.   Strong's even reports the word as Gold.  Tyndale translated it "gold".   King James translated it Gold.  Is this too difficult to understand?  I'm just not getting the argument here.
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« Reply #96 on: June 23, 2013, 10:40:55 PM »

From the Orthodox betrothal service:

Lord our God, You journeyed with the servant of the Patriarch Abraham in Mesopotamia when he was sent to obtain a wife for his lord Isaac, and by means of drawing water You revealed that he should betroth Rebecca. Bless the betrothal of Your servants N. and M. and make firm the word that they have spoken. Confirm them with the holy unity that comes from You. For it was You who in the beginning created male and female, and it is by You that woman is linked to man as a helper and for the continuation of the human race. Therefore, Lord our God, who sent truth out to Your inheritance and your promise to your servants, our fathers, your elect in every generation, look on Your servant N. and Your servant M., and make firm their betrothal in faith and concord and truth and love. For it is You, Lord, who declared that times a pledge is to be given and made firm in everything. By a ring authority was given to Joseph in Egypt. By a ring Daniel was glorified in the country of Babylon. By a ring the truth of Thamar was revealed. By a ring our heavenly Father showed compassion to the prodigal son. For he said, ‘Put a ring on his hand and bring out and slay the fatted calf, and let us eat and be joyful’. It was Your right hand, Lord, that armed Moses at the Red Sea, for through Your true word the heavens were made firm and the earth set on its foundations. And the right hand of Your servants will be blessed by Your mighty word and by Your upraised arm. Therefore, Master, with Your heavenly blessing now bless also this putting-on of rings. And may an Angel of the Lord go before them all the days of their lives. For you are the One who blesses and sanctifies all things, and to You we give glory, to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now and for ever, and to the ages of ages.

The richness of this prayer cannot be underestimated.


Agree, in consideration,
The ring given to Joseph was by a pagan (not specified gold)
One to whom, unlike you, God revealed His Word.
Daniel's lion den was sealed by a pagan with a ring (nebuchadnezzar)
The same one who raised up God's Temple.
Thamars truth was that she was going to be paid the ring for prostitution (with other stuff)
No, your lie.  Thamar was paid a goat.  The ring was Judah's word and pledge (the same mentioned in the genealogy of the Christ).

So that leaves the prodigal son.  Check.
Not really, but that is more than enough.

That said, the story does not specify the ring type?   Our other scriptures speak against using gold or rich materials for any type of array.
 
Your ignorance of the Scriptures is showing.  Again.

I'm more or less thinking about the gold/silver/diamonds in rings... Should Christians be using these riches in their rings?
Yes.

Okay so other than your cheap shots,

1 Peter 3:3 - 3Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear—

You are wanting to throw the teachings of Peter away...
no, just your twisting of it, like the other Scriptures, to your own destruction.

Btw. I Peter 3: 3 isn't a proof text for nudism either.
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« Reply #97 on: June 23, 2013, 10:46:22 PM »

Should vintners be given the MD/DO degree and a board certification in gastroenterology without having studied medicine?  Cf. I Tim. 5.23. 
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« Reply #98 on: June 23, 2013, 10:56:07 PM »

I know Jesusisiam speaks only English, and the Gospel is only Greek to him, but: I Peter 3:3

ὧν ἔστω οὐχ ὁ ἔξωθεν ἐμπλοκῆς τριχῶν καὶ περιθέσεως χρυσίων ἢ ἐνδύσεως ἱματίων κόσμος
whose let-it-be not the external of-braiding of-hair and putting-around of gold or putting-on garments adorning

Soooo there you have it.  St. Peter in jesusisiamism preaches that you should not be putting on clothes, but be naked like Adam the day God created him.

This is to fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah 20:2:
At the same time spoke the LORD by Isaiah the son of Amoz, saying, Go and remove the sackcloth from off your body, and put off your shoes from your feet. And he did so, walking naked and barefoot

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« Reply #99 on: June 23, 2013, 11:02:00 PM »

Gold was used in Solomon's temple, and that was O. K.  Specifically, which Scriptures about gold and costly array are you referring to?

1 Timothy 2:9 - In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

1 Peter 3:3 - Whose adorning let it not be that outward [adorning] of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;



So braids are out also?

You'd have to ask Peter.   Undecided  He wrote it.

What about gold plaits?  Grin

I guess defying the scriptures is amusing.  They wrote them for a reason.  Think about it.
Don't have to.  They said it explicitly:
2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

3:16... speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
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« Reply #100 on: June 24, 2013, 01:23:50 AM »

Hmm, guess St. John Chrysostom is in hot water:

Quote
In his eighth Homily on I St. Timothy (see Patrologia Graeca, Vol. LXII, Cols. 540-542), St. John Chrysostomos also speaks to us about St. Paul’s admonition that women dress and adorn themselves modestly, avoiding excessive jewelry, decoration, and flamboyant dress (I St. Timothy 2:9). "Paul, however, requires something more of women," he notes: "That they adorn themselves ‘in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided [coiffured] hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.’" Elaborating on this passage, he asks: "But what is this ‘modest apparel’? Such attire as covers them wholly and properly, not with superfluous ornaments, for the one is appropriate, while the other is not." He directs to women who ignore these guidelines some sternly sobering words: "Do you approach God to pray with styled hair and gold jewelry? Have you come to a dance, a marriage, or some fancy parade? There such styling and costly clothing may be acceptable, but here [in Church] none of this is desirable. You come here to pray [and] to beg for the forgiveness of your sins.... This is not the dress of a suppliant....She who weeps should not be wearing gold. This is nothing but acting and hypocrisy....Put away such hypocrisy! God is not mocked! This is the garb of actors and dancers... Nothing of this kind is appropriate to a modest woman, who should be adorned ‘with shamefacedness and sobriety.’"

orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/dress_grooming.aspx

The Apostolic teaching is totally unequivocal. Calling people pharisees and such just betrays a lack of comprehension. Further, the pharisees were condemned because they thought salvation could be earned through the performance of meaningless laws - the ordinances instituted in the NT are not meaningless, however, but completely meaningful and relevant to our spiritual state. The things we habituate ourselves in or cultivate in our lives can keep us oriented towards God or away from him, to ourselves (which is one reason I'm going to stop coming to this board).
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« Reply #101 on: June 24, 2013, 02:32:50 AM »

Hmm, guess St. John Chrysostom is in hot water:
No, cold water. He fell asleep in the Lord frostbitten.

Quote
In his eighth Homily on I St. Timothy (see Patrologia Graeca, Vol. LXII, Cols. 540-542), St. John Chrysostomos also speaks to us about St. Paul’s admonition that women dress and adorn themselves modestly, avoiding excessive jewelry, decoration, and flamboyant dress (I St. Timothy 2:9). "Paul, however, requires something more of women," he notes: "That they adorn themselves ‘in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided [coiffured] hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.’" Elaborating on this passage, he asks: "But what is this ‘modest apparel’? Such attire as covers them wholly and properly, not with superfluous ornaments, for the one is appropriate, while the other is not." He directs to women who ignore these guidelines some sternly sobering words: "Do you approach God to pray with styled hair and gold jewelry? Have you come to a dance, a marriage, or some fancy parade? There such styling and costly clothing may be acceptable, but here [in Church] none of this is desirable. You come here to pray [and] to beg for the forgiveness of your sins.... This is not the dress of a suppliant....She who weeps should not be wearing gold. This is nothing but acting and hypocrisy....Put away such hypocrisy! God is not mocked! This is the garb of actors and dancers... Nothing of this kind is appropriate to a modest woman, who should be adorned ‘with shamefacedness and sobriety.’"

orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/dress_grooming.aspx
orthodoxinfo.  Is that how you burnt yourself out?

They stop a bit short, the next line:
Quote
Imitate not therefore the courtesans. For by such a dress they allure their many lovers; and hence many have incurred a disgraceful suspicion, and, instead of gaining any advantage from their ornaments, have injured many by bearing this character. For as the adulteress, though she may have a character for modesty, derives no benefit from that character, in the Day, when He who judges the secrets of men shall make all things manifest; so the modest woman, if she contrive by this dress to pass for an adulteress, will lose the advantage of her chastity. For many have suffered harm by this opinion. What can I do, you say, if another suspects me? But you give the occasion by your dress, your looks, your gestures. It is for this reason that Paul discourses much of dress and much of modesty. And if he would remove those things which are only the indications of wealth, as gold, and pearls, and costly array; how much more those things which imply studied ornament, as painting, coloring the eyes, a mincing gait, the affected voice, a languishing and wanton look; the exquisite care in putting on the cloak and bodice, the nicely wrought girdle, and the closely-fitted shoes? For he glances at all these things, in speaking of modest apparel and shamefacedness. For such things are shameless and indecent.

Bear with me, I beseech you, for it is not my aim by this plain reproof to wound or pain you, but to remove from my flock all that is unbecoming to them. But if these prohibitions are addressed to those who have husbands, who are rich, and live luxuriously; much more to those who have professed virginity. But what virgin, you say, wears gold, or broidered hair? Yet there may be such a studied nicety in a simple dress, as that these are nothing to it. You may study appearance in a common garment more than those who wear gold. For when a very dark colored robe is drawn closely round the breast with the girdle (as dancers on the stage are attired), with such nicety that it may neither spread into breadth nor shrink into scantiness, but be between both; and when the bosom is set off with many folds, is not this more alluring than any silken robes? And when the shoe, shining through its blackness, ends in a sharp point, and imitates the elegance of painting, so that even the breadth of the sole is scarce visible— or when, though you do not indeed paint the face, you spend much time and pains on washing it, and spread a veil across the forehead, whiter than the face itself— and above that put on a hood, of which the blackness may set off the white by contrast— is there not in all this the vanity of dress? What can one say to the perpetual rolling of the eyes?...You have taken upon you a great contest, where wrestling, not ornament is required;

hence the nudity required by 1 Peter 3:3.
Quote
where the battle awaits you, not sloth and ease. Observe the combatants and wrestlers in the games. Do they concern themselves about their walk or their dress? No, but scorning all these, and throwing about them a garment dripping with oil, they look only to one thing, to wound, and not be wounded. The devil stands grinding his teeth, watching to destroy you every way, and you remain unconcerned, or concerned only about this satanic ornament. I say nothing about the voice, though much affectation is shown in this also, nor about perfumes, and other such luxuries. It is for these things we are ridiculed by the women of the world. The respect for virginity is lost. No one honors a virgin as she ought to be honored. They have given occasion to their own dishonor. Ought not they to be looked up to in the Church of God, as women coming from heaven? But now they are despised, and deservedly, though not those among them who are discreet. But when one who has a husband and children, and presides over a household, sees you, who ought to be crucified to the world, more devoted to the world than herself, will she not ridicule and despise you? See what care! What pains! In your humble dress, you exceed her who wears the costliest ornament, and art more studious of appearance than she who is arrayed in gold. What is becoming to you you seek not; that which misbecomes you you pursue, when you ought to be occupied in good works. On this account virgins are less honored than women of the world. For they do not perform works worthy of their virgin profession. This is not said to all; or rather it is said to all; to those who are in fault, that they may learn modesty; to those who are free from blame, that they may teach modesty to others. But beware lest this rebuke be verified in deed.

Btw, St. John wore vestments, and he didn't melt down the gold altar and vessels of Agia Sophia.

The Apostolic teaching is totally unequivocal.
That it is. But since you have abandoned it for Jesusisiam's inventions, what is your point?

Calling people pharisees and such just betrays a lack of comprehension.
Those who refuse to head the Apostle's command (2 Thessalonian 3:6) to live according to the Tradition received from the Apostles, but instead to disrupt and walk according to the way of the Pharisees, Saduccees and Scribes betray their lack of comprehension.

Further, the pharisees were condemned because they thought salvation could be earned through the performance of meaningless laws - the ordinances instituted in the NT are not meaningless, however, but completely meaningful and relevant to our spiritual state. The things we habituate ourselves in or cultivate in our lives can keep us oriented towards God or away from him, to ourselves (which is one reason I'm going to stop coming to this board).
Cultivating strange doctrines, while refusing to have the Church weed the garden of the soul, leads to a jungle of heresy.
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« Reply #102 on: June 24, 2013, 03:04:36 AM »

Hmm, guess St. John Chrysostom is in hot water:

Quote
In his eighth Homily on I St. Timothy (see Patrologia Graeca, Vol. LXII, Cols. 540-542), St. John Chrysostomos also speaks to us about St. Paul’s admonition that women dress and adorn themselves modestly, avoiding excessive jewelry, decoration, and flamboyant dress (I St. Timothy 2:9). "Paul, however, requires something more of women," he notes: "That they adorn themselves ‘in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided [coiffured] hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.’" Elaborating on this passage, he asks: "But what is this ‘modest apparel’? Such attire as covers them wholly and properly, not with superfluous ornaments, for the one is appropriate, while the other is not." He directs to women who ignore these guidelines some sternly sobering words: "Do you approach God to pray with styled hair and gold jewelry? Have you come to a dance, a marriage, or some fancy parade? There such styling and costly clothing may be acceptable, but here [in Church] none of this is desirable. You come here to pray [and] to beg for the forgiveness of your sins.... This is not the dress of a suppliant....She who weeps should not be wearing gold. This is nothing but acting and hypocrisy....Put away such hypocrisy! God is not mocked! This is the garb of actors and dancers... Nothing of this kind is appropriate to a modest woman, who should be adorned ‘with shamefacedness and sobriety.’"

orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/dress_grooming.aspx

The Apostolic teaching is totally unequivocal. Calling people pharisees and such just betrays a lack of comprehension. Further, the pharisees were condemned because they thought salvation could be earned through the performance of meaningless laws - the ordinances instituted in the NT are not meaningless, however, but completely meaningful and relevant to our spiritual state. The things we habituate ourselves in or cultivate in our lives can keep us oriented towards God or away from him, to ourselves (which is one reason I'm going to stop coming to this board).
You shut the door on the Church long ago.  From the outside.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45331.msg774158.html#msg774158
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« Reply #103 on: June 24, 2013, 05:05:34 AM »

Hmm, guess St. John Chrysostom is in hot water:

Quote
In his eighth Homily on I St. Timothy (see Patrologia Graeca, Vol. LXII, Cols. 540-542), St. John Chrysostomos also speaks to us about St. Paul’s admonition that women dress and adorn themselves modestly, avoiding excessive jewelry, decoration, and flamboyant dress (I St. Timothy 2:9). "Paul, however, requires something more of women," he notes: "That they adorn themselves ‘in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided [coiffured] hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.’" Elaborating on this passage, he asks: "But what is this ‘modest apparel’? Such attire as covers them wholly and properly, not with superfluous ornaments, for the one is appropriate, while the other is not." He directs to women who ignore these guidelines some sternly sobering words: "Do you approach God to pray with styled hair and gold jewelry? Have you come to a dance, a marriage, or some fancy parade? There such styling and costly clothing may be acceptable, but here [in Church] none of this is desirable. You come here to pray [and] to beg for the forgiveness of your sins.... This is not the dress of a suppliant....She who weeps should not be wearing gold. This is nothing but acting and hypocrisy....Put away such hypocrisy! God is not mocked! This is the garb of actors and dancers... Nothing of this kind is appropriate to a modest woman, who should be adorned ‘with shamefacedness and sobriety.’"

orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/dress_grooming.aspx

The Apostolic teaching is totally unequivocal. Calling people pharisees and such just betrays a lack of comprehension. Further, the pharisees were condemned because they thought salvation could be earned through the performance of meaningless laws - the ordinances instituted in the NT are not meaningless, however, but completely meaningful and relevant to our spiritual state. The things we habituate ourselves in or cultivate in our lives can keep us oriented towards God or away from him, to ourselves (which is one reason I'm going to stop coming to this board).
You shut the door on the Church long ago.  From the outside.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45331.msg774158.html#msg774158

So, when you can't form a cogent argument you bring up old stuff (and you've also never said or did anything that wasn't right). Good job on abject failure.
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« Reply #104 on: June 24, 2013, 05:11:34 AM »

Hmm, guess St. John Chrysostom is in hot water:

Quote
In his eighth Homily on I St. Timothy (see Patrologia Graeca, Vol. LXII, Cols. 540-542), St. John Chrysostomos also speaks to us about St. Paul’s admonition that women dress and adorn themselves modestly, avoiding excessive jewelry, decoration, and flamboyant dress (I St. Timothy 2:9). "Paul, however, requires something more of women," he notes: "That they adorn themselves ‘in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided [coiffured] hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.’" Elaborating on this passage, he asks: "But what is this ‘modest apparel’? Such attire as covers them wholly and properly, not with superfluous ornaments, for the one is appropriate, while the other is not." He directs to women who ignore these guidelines some sternly sobering words: "Do you approach God to pray with styled hair and gold jewelry? Have you come to a dance, a marriage, or some fancy parade? There such styling and costly clothing may be acceptable, but here [in Church] none of this is desirable. You come here to pray [and] to beg for the forgiveness of your sins.... This is not the dress of a suppliant....She who weeps should not be wearing gold. This is nothing but acting and hypocrisy....Put away such hypocrisy! God is not mocked! This is the garb of actors and dancers... Nothing of this kind is appropriate to a modest woman, who should be adorned ‘with shamefacedness and sobriety.’"

orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/dress_grooming.aspx

The Apostolic teaching is totally unequivocal. Calling people pharisees and such just betrays a lack of comprehension. Further, the pharisees were condemned because they thought salvation could be earned through the performance of meaningless laws - the ordinances instituted in the NT are not meaningless, however, but completely meaningful and relevant to our spiritual state. The things we habituate ourselves in or cultivate in our lives can keep us oriented towards God or away from him, to ourselves (which is one reason I'm going to stop coming to this board).
You shut the door on the Church long ago.  From the outside.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45331.msg774158.html#msg774158

So, when you can't form a cogent argument you bring up old stuff (and you've also never said or did anything that wasn't right). Good job on abject failure.

Jason, you seem to have forgotten the first lesson of online discourse: Everything you post online stays online. Forever.
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« Reply #105 on: June 24, 2013, 05:13:16 AM »

Hmm, guess St. John Chrysostom is in hot water:

Quote
In his eighth Homily on I St. Timothy (see Patrologia Graeca, Vol. LXII, Cols. 540-542), St. John Chrysostomos also speaks to us about St. Paul’s admonition that women dress and adorn themselves modestly, avoiding excessive jewelry, decoration, and flamboyant dress (I St. Timothy 2:9). "Paul, however, requires something more of women," he notes: "That they adorn themselves ‘in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided [coiffured] hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.’" Elaborating on this passage, he asks: "But what is this ‘modest apparel’? Such attire as covers them wholly and properly, not with superfluous ornaments, for the one is appropriate, while the other is not." He directs to women who ignore these guidelines some sternly sobering words: "Do you approach God to pray with styled hair and gold jewelry? Have you come to a dance, a marriage, or some fancy parade? There such styling and costly clothing may be acceptable, but here [in Church] none of this is desirable. You come here to pray [and] to beg for the forgiveness of your sins.... This is not the dress of a suppliant....She who weeps should not be wearing gold. This is nothing but acting and hypocrisy....Put away such hypocrisy! God is not mocked! This is the garb of actors and dancers... Nothing of this kind is appropriate to a modest woman, who should be adorned ‘with shamefacedness and sobriety.’"

orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/dress_grooming.aspx

The Apostolic teaching is totally unequivocal. Calling people pharisees and such just betrays a lack of comprehension. Further, the pharisees were condemned because they thought salvation could be earned through the performance of meaningless laws - the ordinances instituted in the NT are not meaningless, however, but completely meaningful and relevant to our spiritual state. The things we habituate ourselves in or cultivate in our lives can keep us oriented towards God or away from him, to ourselves (which is one reason I'm going to stop coming to this board).
You shut the door on the Church long ago.  From the outside.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45331.msg774158.html#msg774158

So, when you can't form a cogent argument you bring up old stuff (and you've also never said or did anything that wasn't right). Good job on abject failure.

Jason, the first lesson of online discourse: Everything you post online stays online. Forever.

Which doesn't really mean anything in the context of this discussion, he has no idea what has happened since then, and it has no relationship to this discussion. Its nothing but trolling (especially considering he went and found several posts and reposted them in different threads).
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« Reply #106 on: June 24, 2013, 07:42:57 AM »

Jason is correct to the extent that 99% of Orthodox Christians today fall miserably short of things the Fathers considered basic practice.

However, wedding rings, like the Cross you wear round your neck (assuming it's a simple cross worn under your clothing, and not an enormous diamond-studded 'Jesus piece'), are not worn for adornment, but as a signet of faith. Unlike hugely expensive and ostentatious engagement rings, which is one of the more anti-Christian cultural practices most have capitulated to, wedding rings are plain, boring, need not be particularly expensive, and aren't much to look at. The use of a metals like gold or silver is just common sense if you want something to last a lifetime without discolouring, skin allergies, etc.

I really can't see how even a totally literal and isolated reading of the New Testament passages quoted could lead to the conclusion that wedding rings - assuming they're plain and relatively inexpensive - are inappropriate for Christians.
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« Reply #107 on: June 24, 2013, 09:19:41 AM »

Jason is correct to the extent that 99% of Orthodox Christians today fall miserably short of things the Fathers considered basic practice.

However, wedding rings, like the Cross you wear round your neck (assuming it's a simple cross worn under your clothing, and not an enormous diamond-studded 'Jesus piece'), are not worn for adornment, but as a signet of faith. Unlike hugely expensive and ostentatious engagement rings, which is one of the more anti-Christian cultural practices most have capitulated to, wedding rings are plain, boring, need not be particularly expensive, and aren't much to look at. The use of a metals like gold or silver is just common sense if you want something to last a lifetime without discolouring, skin allergies, etc.

I really can't see how even a totally literal and isolated reading of the New Testament passages quoted could lead to the conclusion that wedding rings - assuming they're plain and relatively inexpensive - are inappropriate for Christians.

The Good Book states that we are not to adorn ourselves with pearls, and nor are we to cast them before swine.

Let's see if this is the /thread.
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« Reply #108 on: June 24, 2013, 09:28:58 AM »

Jason is correct to the extent that 99% of Orthodox Christians today fall miserably short of things the Fathers considered basic practice.

However, wedding rings, like the Cross you wear round your neck (assuming it's a simple cross worn under your clothing, and not an enormous diamond-studded 'Jesus piece'), are not worn for adornment, but as a signet of faith. Unlike hugely expensive and ostentatious engagement rings, which is one of the more anti-Christian cultural practices most have capitulated to, wedding rings are plain, boring, need not be particularly expensive, and aren't much to look at. The use of a metals like gold or silver is just common sense if you want something to last a lifetime without discolouring, skin allergies, etc.

I really can't see how even a totally literal and isolated reading of the New Testament passages quoted could lead to the conclusion that wedding rings - assuming they're plain and relatively inexpensive - are inappropriate for Christians.

The Good Book states that we are not to adorn ourselves with pearls, and nor are we to cast them before swine.

Let's see if this is the /thread.

We we can't wear them, and can't cast them away, what the heck are we supposed to do with them?  Follow Cleopatra's example and dissolve them in vinegar and drink them? Is this the inward adornment that is talked about?  laugh
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« Reply #109 on: June 24, 2013, 09:54:26 AM »

We we can't wear them, and can't cast them away, what the heck are we supposed to do with them?  Follow Cleopatra's example and dissolve them in vinegar and drink them? Is this the inward adornment that is talked about?  laugh

Now I'm wondering if the priests who embalmed Cleo scraped out the mother-of-pearl first... Cheesy
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« Reply #110 on: June 24, 2013, 10:38:28 AM »

Has anyone else noticed that when a statement begins, "As Scripture plainly shows (states)...." what often follows is a personal and idiosyncratic interpretation?
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« Reply #111 on: June 24, 2013, 10:41:05 AM »

Has anyone else noticed that when a statement begins, "As Scripture plainly shows (states)...." what often follows is a personal and idiosyncratic interpretation?

Yes.  The Holy Scripture is a frequent victim of soundbyting.  All too often it is either taken to extremes or ignored all together.  Sometimes both.
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« Reply #112 on: June 24, 2013, 10:48:27 AM »

It is said that when word of the printing press and Guttenberg' s bible reached Mount Athos, the first words heard were :" Είμαστε καταδικασμένοι." No wonder "Sola Scriptura" is a heresy to the Romans and the Orthodox. This lengthy article says it better than I could hope.


" IN THE VANITIES OF THEIR MINDS -PROBLEMS WITH THE DOCTRINE OF SOLA SCRIPTURA:
[b]The Holy Scriptures are perhaps the summit of the Holy Tradition of the Church, but the greatness of the heights to which the Scriptures ascend is due to the great mountain upon which it rests. Taken from its context, within the Holy Tradition, the solid rock of Scripture becomes a mere ball of clay, to be molded into whatever shape its handlers wish to mold it. It is no honor to the Scriptures to misuse and twist them, even if this is done in the name of exalting their authority. We must read the Bible; it is God's Holy Word. But to understand its message let us humbly sit at the feet of the saints who have shown themselves "doers of the Word and not hearers only" (James 1:22), and have been proven by their lives worthy interpreters of the Scriptures. Let us go to those who knew the Apostles, such as Saints Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp, if we have a question about the writings of the Apostles. Let us inquire of the Church, and not fall into self-deluded arrogance[/b]."

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_solascriptura.aspx


Amen.
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« Reply #113 on: June 24, 2013, 11:29:29 AM »

In my opinion, if a wedding ring is a percentage of your paycheck then go for it.  I don't see how this is any more frivolous than the other things you would probably have spent the money on.  If the ring is a percentage of your yearly salary then you are probably being frivolous.  Furthermore, if the woman is demanding a ring that costs that much you probably ought to consider drawing her a map that ends at the curb.  My mother likes to quote a passage from the Good Book that I find much more compelling than the ones already quoted - it is better to live on the roof top than to share a bed with a contentious wife.  If the man is demanding an expensive ring...I have bad news for you ladies, he may never run off with another woman, but that doesn't mean he may never run off.   Shocked

The problem with spending too much on anything related to the wedding is that if you spend a little is helps weed out those who want to get married, just don't want to be married. 

As for materials, I love Tungsten but Gold is my favorite element.  It is just so beautiful! I I would rather have it in the form of the Krugerrand, personally, or potentially an ingot, but a ring could be ok.  I think that the plain gold ring has a degree of simplicity.  Despite the difference in costs, the Tungsten ring would be much more ostentatious and would probably violate the spirit of the rule moreso than the Gold one would.  As for diamonds, I have no use for them except on a drill bit.  They are WAAAAY overpriced compared to their worth and relative rarity.  And I don't know why some African kid needs to die for vanity's sake.  Screw that.  Rubies or Sapphires are much more pretty (and the sapphire is my GF's birthstone...mine too).  Otherwise, if someone were to be set on a diamond because they actually like that plain stone, then seeing if you could find a Russian lab diamond would probably be better than feeding the De Beers more money.


I like what you said Vamrat on all the various points and you are probably the first person i have encountered who shares my opinion on diamonds and thier beauty or lack there of for exactly the same reasons. They are plain and cold. I much prefer rubies,sapphires,emeralds etc... Which appear to hold warmth of living fire and beauty. Diamond the colorless variety is just too dead istm. It can be made attractive when mixed with other stones but alone it's just an overpriced stone we are told is beautiful when it is not. At least to my eyes.

Opal is my birthstone, I find it beautiful in its warmth , mysteriousness ,diversity and what appears to be a multidimensionality.  I don't own one. As far as metals I agree gold not the white variety, is beautiful. It appears to hold fire in it also. Smiley
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« Reply #114 on: June 24, 2013, 11:59:11 AM »

Has anyone else noticed that when a statement begins, "As Scripture plainly shows (states)...." what often follows is a personal and idiosyncratic interpretation?
St. Peter certainly noticed. Wink
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« Reply #115 on: June 24, 2013, 12:00:16 PM »

We we can't wear them, and can't cast them away, what the heck are we supposed to do with them?  Follow Cleopatra's example and dissolve them in vinegar and drink them? Is this the inward adornment that is talked about?  laugh

Now I'm wondering if the priests who embalmed Cleo scraped out the mother-of-pearl first... Cheesy
Tomb robbers used to burn the body so the gold would melt out.
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« Reply #116 on: June 24, 2013, 12:06:45 PM »

Hmm, guess St. John Chrysostom is in hot water:

Quote
In his eighth Homily on I St. Timothy (see Patrologia Graeca, Vol. LXII, Cols. 540-542), St. John Chrysostomos also speaks to us about St. Paul’s admonition that women dress and adorn themselves modestly, avoiding excessive jewelry, decoration, and flamboyant dress (I St. Timothy 2:9). "Paul, however, requires something more of women," he notes: "That they adorn themselves ‘in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided [coiffured] hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.’" Elaborating on this passage, he asks: "But what is this ‘modest apparel’? Such attire as covers them wholly and properly, not with superfluous ornaments, for the one is appropriate, while the other is not." He directs to women who ignore these guidelines some sternly sobering words: "Do you approach God to pray with styled hair and gold jewelry? Have you come to a dance, a marriage, or some fancy parade? There such styling and costly clothing may be acceptable, but here [in Church] none of this is desirable. You come here to pray [and] to beg for the forgiveness of your sins.... This is not the dress of a suppliant....She who weeps should not be wearing gold. This is nothing but acting and hypocrisy....Put away such hypocrisy! God is not mocked! This is the garb of actors and dancers... Nothing of this kind is appropriate to a modest woman, who should be adorned ‘with shamefacedness and sobriety.’"

orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/dress_grooming.aspx

The Apostolic teaching is totally unequivocal. Calling people pharisees and such just betrays a lack of comprehension. Further, the pharisees were condemned because they thought salvation could be earned through the performance of meaningless laws - the ordinances instituted in the NT are not meaningless, however, but completely meaningful and relevant to our spiritual state. The things we habituate ourselves in or cultivate in our lives can keep us oriented towards God or away from him, to ourselves (which is one reason I'm going to stop coming to this board).
You shut the door on the Church long ago.  From the outside.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,45331.msg774158.html#msg774158

So, when you can't form a cogent argument you bring up old stuff (and you've also never said or did anything that wasn't right). Good job on abject failure.

Jason, the first lesson of online discourse: Everything you post online stays online. Forever.

Which doesn't really mean anything in the context of this discussion, he has no idea what has happened since then, and it has no relationship to this discussion. Its nothing but trolling (especially considering he went and found several posts and reposted them in different threads).
"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

The Church remains the bulwark and support of the Truth.  Nothing has happened to that since then, since you wrote that, nor since St. Paul wrote that.
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« Reply #117 on: June 24, 2013, 12:13:13 PM »

It is said that when word of the printing press and Guttenberg' s bible reached Mount Athos, the first words heard were :" Είμαστε καταδικασμένοι." No wonder "Sola Scriptura" is a heresy to the Romans and the Orthodox. This lengthy article says it better than I could hope.


" IN THE VANITIES OF THEIR MINDS -PROBLEMS WITH THE DOCTRINE OF SOLA SCRIPTURA:
[b]The Holy Scriptures are perhaps the summit of the Holy Tradition of the Church, but the greatness of the heights to which the Scriptures ascend is due to the great mountain upon which it rests. Taken from its context, within the Holy Tradition, the solid rock of Scripture becomes a mere ball of clay, to be molded into whatever shape its handlers wish to mold it. It is no honor to the Scriptures to misuse and twist them, even if this is done in the name of exalting their authority. We must read the Bible; it is God's Holy Word. But to understand its message let us humbly sit at the feet of the saints who have shown themselves "doers of the Word and not hearers only" (James 1:22), and have been proven by their lives worthy interpreters of the Scriptures. Let us go to those who knew the Apostles, such as Saints Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp, if we have a question about the writings of the Apostles. Let us inquire of the Church, and not fall into self-deluded arrogance[/b]."

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/tca_solascriptura.aspx


Amen.
Another point from the excellent article:
Quote
And in fact, this is what Protestant scholarship has done. Though Protestantism was founded on its claim of believing the Bible to be the only authority for faith and practice, modern Protestant scholarship is now dominated by modernists who no longer believe in the inspiration or inerrancy of the Scriptures. They now stand above the Bible and only choose to use those parts that suit them and discard the rest as "primitive mythology and legend." The only authority left for such as these is themselves.
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« Reply #118 on: June 24, 2013, 12:25:07 PM »

FYI: "Είμαστε καταδικασμένοι = "We are doomed." In the Vatican = "Fatatum!"
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« Reply #119 on: June 24, 2013, 12:50:26 PM »

Opal is my birthstone, I find it beautiful in its warmth , mysteriousness ,diversity and what appears to be a multidimensionality.  I don't own one. As far as metals I agree gold not the white variety, is beautiful. It appears to hold fire in it also. Smiley

Opal is mine as well. You can't imagine how disappointing this was to me as a kid. I am not sure what gem would have been cool to my young self, krypton? I don't know.

Realize, this let down was compounded by the fact that moments before I also found out my birth sign was an inanimate object.
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« Reply #120 on: June 24, 2013, 01:01:16 PM »

Opal is my birthstone, I find it beautiful in its warmth , mysteriousness ,diversity and what appears to be a multidimensionality.  I don't own one. As far as metals I agree gold not the white variety, is beautiful. It appears to hold fire in it also. Smiley

Opal is mine as well. You can't imagine how disappointing this was to me as a kid. I am not sure what gem would have been cool to my young self, krypton? I don't know.

Realize, this let down was compounded by the fact that moments before I also found out my birth sign was an inanimate object.

You got to be kidding me! Hahaha how wired is it I have felt the same initially for both reasons.
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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #121 on: June 24, 2013, 01:06:54 PM »

Kryptonite would have been close to what we deserved.hehehe
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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #122 on: June 24, 2013, 01:26:32 PM »

Kryptonite would have been close to what we deserved.hehehe

I guess . . .  I suppose I wanted the entire the planet, not just a piece of it.
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« Reply #123 on: June 24, 2013, 01:32:37 PM »

Kryptonite would have been close to what we deserved.hehehe

I guess . . .  I suppose I wanted the entire the planet, not just a piece of it.

Hey,why the heck not huh? LOL
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Only pray for me, that God would give me both inward and outward strength, that I may not only speak, but truly will; and that I may not merely be called a Christian, but really be found to be one. St.Ignatius of Antioch.Epistle to the Romans.
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« Reply #124 on: June 24, 2013, 10:00:24 PM »

My wedding ring is made from enriched uranium.  Not flashy at all, but I do seem to continually develop tumors on my finger.

The first time I scanned that I saw 'spent uranium' i.e. depleted and thought "that would be heavy".  I worked on a system long ago that used slugs made of that as ammo so I know about their heft.  However, I found out that they use Tungsten for them now.. which brings us (sort of) on subject  Wink

I've known people who had silver wedding rings, too.  I still don't understand how a ring being given by a "pagan" somehow taints the idea of rings.
Because a pagan did it.  I don't know how they (jesusiam and his disciple Jason Wike) stand the alphabet to read the Bible.

No problem with a 'pagan did it', just going with the very plain, basic reading of the bible and not  jumping through hoops to say "Oh, he didn't really mean that" so I can keep all the 20th century middle class affectations of modern American/European society. Heck, actually the pagans look better because there's no church that doesn't take something simple and indisputable in the bible and ignore it - there's nothing that distinguishes any Christian from a non-Christian anymore.

Do you hate your parents?
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« Reply #125 on: June 24, 2013, 10:04:39 PM »

Has anyone else noticed that when a statement begins, "As Scripture plainly shows (states)...." what often follows is a personal and idiosyncratic interpretation?

Ignorance and want of truth
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