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Author Topic: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease  (Read 4588 times) Average Rating: 0
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J Michael
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« Reply #180 on: June 28, 2013, 09:20:48 AM »

Minasoliman, are you in a bad mood. The "ignorant reply" statement was overdoing it. I am not knowledgeable about a lot of things but the destructive effects of dieting is not one of them. You need to get married to a dieter that is an extremist and switches from one diet to another.

I read two reviews and a number of research papers (mostly skimming for these) on NOMW. I did accidentally read the Choi et al paper cited above. I am pretty sure low carb dieters would not consider 60% calories from carbs as low carb. The issue of being overweight and not obese is also an issue.

We can debate about this, there are not that many papers to cover (my guess would be ~40), but I think it is beside the point.

I never promoted a diet of junk food. It is certainly not part of my lifestyle. I was promoting the idea that it is OK to have carbs with your meal, a hamburger on occasion and pizza (which can be quite nutritious).

If a worthwhile life until 100 necessitates distractions from what you believe is worthwhile (and I am not talking about what you eat), then I am out. Sixty-five is good enough.

For your information, I probably purchase prepared meals once a month. I cook everything from scratch. I always have fresh vegetables, fruit, a starch and a protein (mostly chicken and pork, beef is too expensive these days). I make my own pizza when I have it, I make my own broths for cooking, etc. I spend a couple of hours in the grocery store on the weekend doing mental algebra in conjuction with manufacturer coupons.

Somewhere up above I hopefully mentioned the notion that activity is important. I am fidgety. I read standing up while pacing, I write standing up. The only time I sit much is like  now when I am typing these posts. I have one meal a day (a big one) usually between 7:30-8:30 pm (depending on when I get home) with red wine. Breakfast is coffee and cigarettes. Lunch is water throughout the day.

That's the difference usually between a person that lives a fulfilling life to 80 and a diseased life to 60.


 Huh Huh

Could you clarify that, please?  It does seem like somewhat of an over-generalization.  Thank you!

I'm not over-generalizing.  One large meal a day for instance is a recipe for eventual disaster.  A cigarette each morning is also not healthy.  Unless you're part of the 0.001% of the genetically evolved few that we have yet to discover that can live a healthy lifestyle while smoking and eating one large meal a day. (do you feel lucky? do ya?)

If my provocative statements are scaring you, GOOD!

You're not scaring me in the least.  I guess I should've been clearer about what I consider to be your over-generalization.  Sorry 'bout that.  See the highlighted part in blue above?  Well, that could be interpreted by some to imply that those who live "diseased" lives do not lead "fulfilling" ones whether they live to 20 or 120, and only those who do not live a "diseased" life have a fulfilling one.  Now, I know you didn't say that explicitly, but the implication is there.  I'm not saying that you believe that, either, but I do know and know of not a few people who think that way.

Now you guys can carry on arguing about the details.  Like I said elsewhere, who needs daytime t.v. when there are threads like this Grin?

Oh no...I don't mean diseased life means "unfulfilling".  I know many who have inspired me in the tough life they live with their conditions.  I believe though if you can prevent something, then that is more fulfilling.  That's all I'm saying.

 Wink  Glad we're on the same page about this.  I thought we would be, but thanks just the same for clarifying.


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« Reply #181 on: June 28, 2013, 10:42:48 AM »

I find it interesting how many studies are contradicted by other studies.   Huh

This new study that came from the Czech Republic says that the small, frequent meals isn't as good as eating just 2-3 meals a day.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-23/two-large-meals-a-day-tops-six-mini-meals-for-weight-loss.html
http://denverfitnessjournal.com/archives/small-frequent-meals-bad-idea-for-weight-loss


This goes along with this guy:
http://www.masteringleptin.com/

When I went to France, it was amazing how thin everyone was and you didn't see many overweight people, like you do in the US. I read somewhere that they are very strict as a nation about not snacking, they just have their meals and that's it.  No muffins, chips, colas, mocha lattes, etc between meals.


 I don't know,  it seems what works for one person doesn't work for the next.  Some people might benefit from the small frequent meals but I never did, it just seemed I felt like eating more and more.



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J Michael
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« Reply #182 on: June 28, 2013, 11:03:47 AM »

I find it interesting how many studies are contradicted by other studies.   Huh

This new study that came from the Czech Republic says that the small, frequent meals isn't as good as eating just 2-3 meals a day.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-23/two-large-meals-a-day-tops-six-mini-meals-for-weight-loss.html
http://denverfitnessjournal.com/archives/small-frequent-meals-bad-idea-for-weight-loss


This goes along with this guy:
http://www.masteringleptin.com/

When I went to France, it was amazing how thin everyone was and you didn't see many overweight people, like you do in the US. I read somewhere that they are very strict as a nation about not snacking, they just have their meals and that's it.  No muffins, chips, colas, mocha lattes, etc between meals.


 I don't know,  it seems what works for one person doesn't work for the next.  Some people might benefit from the small frequent meals but I never did, it just seemed I felt like eating more and more.





Your first sentence reminds me of so much that goes on in modern "science", and especially in medicine.  "We used to believe x, but now we believe y."  Another few years down the line it becomes, "Well, we used to believe y, but now c is true, and x was absolute nonsense."

There's a book out by Harris Coulter called "The Controlled Clinical Trial: An Analysis". http://www.amazon.com/Controlled-Clinical-Trial-Analysis/dp/091638604X/ref=sr_1_9?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372432146&sr=1-9&keywords=Harris+Coulter  If you can find a copy, it's well worth the read, and it sheds much light on the whole issue, and the validity of such trials and studies.

Eating is an issue which affects everybody in an incredibly fundamental and intimate way, and some people get obsessed with it, especially if they perceive health issues associated with it, which of course there can be and are.  It is an issue that easily becomes the focus of many peoples underlying neuroses and insanities.  When this is accompanied by either a need desire to make $$, a need to be right about something, or some other agenda or hobby-horse, you end up with all the diets, "lifestyles", eating plans, fads,  etc., etc., etc.  Most of these do not take into account the fact that as much as we humans are the same, to the same extent each one of us is different.  They and their creators also tend to forget differences in financial status and socio-economic "class", geographical location, and probably a whole host of other variables that I can't think of.

I'm sure someone will now come along and, with reference to your last statement, "suggest" that the small meals you ate frequently that didn't work for you were made up of the "wrong" stuff, hence the failure.   Roll Eyes

Okay, Food Cops, start tossing your tomatoes and eggs at me  Grin.

« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 11:15:03 AM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #183 on: June 28, 2013, 11:17:53 AM »

I am sorry for the delayed response. One of the questions was based on an answer I made from memory so I had to find an internet accessible source.

Quote
If you have comments, I will learn something from it. My notion here is that if there is a sudden rise in obesity, it is not genetics. This is more or less an Occam's razor analysis and I know well enough that this principle often fails in biological systems.

Indeed it does fail, but not a bad tool to use nevertheless.  If there are obese people that are not developing diabetes or high cholesterol and thin people that are, then we have to concede that there seems to be a genetic susceptibility to getting fat easily.  We can find these two groups of people with same eating habits, same level of activity, and in fact same morbidity risks, but different body reactions to the foods we eat.  Thus, these different reactions point to genetics.

I have zero argument against this. My notion dealt with the rise of obesity. If this is wrong then there is nothing to discuss.

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My intention here was to describe myself and my eating habits and all of my faults. Red wine is because I do not care for white wine.

I do not know if it is alright. This is how I have been for the past 30  years or more or let me just say I stopped eating breakfast in 1971. I stopped eating lunch in 1982. The reason was that I was more productive and I thought more clearly. I have never met anyone with this particular eating habit.

...

This is the most interesting statement that you made. Explain a priori, or preferably a reference to my eating style.


It's a dangerous thing to allow your body to have one major meal a day.  In essence you are bombarding your body with more than it can handle.  It's like rather than walking back and forth to your car to pick up the bags of groceries little by little, you pick up all the bags of groceries all at once, and then try closing the trunk, opening the door, and walking up the stairs all while suffering picking up the bags.  Some things will eventually fall off the floor.  Other times, you may trip.

Your body when bombarded with one meal will cause a SURGE of insulin pounding on every cell of your body.  Eventually, your cells will be like "I can't take this anymore, I refuse to effected by all this insulin I'm being hit by."  And thus you develop insulin resistance.  Frequent small meals is the healthy way to go, and the more frequent the better.

I was told this before I stopped eating lunch. What you are saying may be true. Shouldn't this be reflected in the school system if it is true. That is, partaking in increments breakfast at 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 am, partaking in lunch at 12, 1, 2, 3, 4 pm, partaking in dinner 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 pm. That is a no-brainer based on your principle. Do people that do this not have a full fledged breakfast, lunch and dinner? I have never come across these type of people (then again I have never come across anyone that eats like I do). Which is worse: Spike - Spike - Spike for breakfast lunch and dinner that most people use or __ - __ _ Spike that I am using. Is there a concentration effect of eating 800, 800, 800 calories vs 0, 0, 2400 calories in the insulin response. I do not know the answer to this question.  Seems like a pretty simple study that could have been performed.

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Occasional means once every two months as far as going out to get food. You might object to what I cook in the interim. Pizza is not high carb, it is a balanced meal. It depends on what you bake.

If you lived my life you would not be allowed to eat whole wheat bread. As a consolation you could eat flour-less sprouted wheat bread.

You have gluten issues?  Do you have some sort of sprue?

No, I was forced into dietary constraints due to a low carb extremist. I thought I was clear about this in my warning to you.


Quote
A pizza from what I understand by conventional wisdom is high carbs and high fat (cheese and bread, literally, with some tomato sauce).  That's not "nutritious".  You need high protein, low carb, low fat.  I would treat pizza like I would alcohol.  Needs to be taken on occasion.

This is what I had to look up. I bake pizzas with great effect in including vegetables in the diet. Visible would be onions, mushrooms, peppers, zucchini, eggplant sauteed in olive oil  and basil. Less noticeable is the sliced tomatoes, carrots, celery in the tomato sauce.

The basis for my statement that pizza is nutritious derives from this text book for undergraduates by Paul Saltman and a consortium of nutrition scientist in the UC system:
http://www.amazon.com/University-California-Diego-Nutrition-Book/dp/0316769819

This is what I found that is accessible:
http://calteches.library.caltech.edu/566/02/Saltman.pdf

Quote:
"Do you want to know what's the most nutritious food in terms of its nutrient density that you can buy in a supermarket? Pizza. I'm serious. All the nutrients from the bag are in a well-made pizza. Of course everyone eats pizza because it's good for
them, right? And as a matter of fact, it is good for you - if you don't take too many calories. So what is this "vegetables, fruits, and grains" stuff all about? The greatest thing about a vegetarian diet is that you can"t eat enough of it can make you fat."

Bag refers to TPN (total parenteral nutrition) bags. Of course, a normal person with intestines will also need fiber, which is the main argument as to why apples are more nutritious that Hostess Twinkies even though Twinkies provide more nutrients as a whole.

Surprisingly, the final statement of this lecture to CalTech students mimics my opinion to a large extent.

Marc, some of his opinions coincide with yours but they also deviate.


Quote
Quote
Fidgeting, means I have a difficult time staying in one place. I pace. I walk around when I write and type when I come up with the sentence to write. I read while pacing. I find it difficult sitting for two hours watching a movie. I go up and down stairs about 10 times a day. I do not work at a desk unless I am reviewing a paper or writing a paper (usually standing up). I work standing up. You can complain that I am not using all of my muscles. But why would this not be nitpicking? I would love to use public transportation. I have the stress of rush hour commutes, but public transportation here falls off considerably at 6:00 pm and taking a bus with three transfers through rush hour traffic for 30 miles takes about 2.5 hrs. I looked this up. If I could get done routinely by 6 pm I could take a train. But that is not the case.

The idea is any doctor wants your heart to race a bit each day.  Doing some mild exercising in the beginning like a power walk may help, or walking up and down the stairs.  Or taking a walk with a significant other.  It's not your skeletal muscles necessarily that needs the workout.  It's your heart and blood vessels.  Skeletal muscles are a nice secondary effect, which are the same organs that could also aid in sugar control when needed.

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I am not supporting my lifestyle. But I have not had a diseased life. I have been blessed in that regard.

That's great.  BUT, your lifestyle carries risks.  It accumulates on you day after day, until you become symptomatic.

I realize the risk. But I would suggest that making me worry about it is worse than the cure. As a curiosity, I remember news articles that your life span generally follows how many heartbeats that you have. Why speed up your death by increasing your heart beat frequency?



Marc, some of his opinions coincide with yours but they also deviate.


Not that I am aware of. He is partners with Gary Taubes in NuScience, which I linked to before. They are both low carb high fat proponents

The most nutrient dense foods are meat and fish, not pizza LOL

When you eat is interesting but a side show. The far bigger issue is what you eat , not how much or when.

If you eat foods that interfere with your bodies hormonal signaling it will respond in ways that you may not like.

Here is some idle speculation on my part:

If you are eating plants and tubors and beans and grains and very little animal fat, you Paleolithic body is being told that the heards are gone and you are scrounging up food the best you can. No hunting, just gathering. The Buffalo are gone and so the body conserves fat to wait it out.

This may be why obese people get hungry after exercise and lean people don't.. Now you are running around and lifting and bending, so your body is saying

 " OMG..is this it? Are you really really sure I should release all this fat now , especially since we have been conserving it for.. oh say.. 45 years ?"

If you body is not holding fat, you can exercise ( Hunt) and you body will suppress appetite so you can roam farther and still be comfortable.
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« Reply #184 on: June 28, 2013, 11:25:03 AM »

FYI.. The typical French Diet is very high in animal fats.

I also wonder what their sugar consumption is. i will look it up.

Once again, correlation is not causation. Just because they don't snack doesn't mean that is the cause of their leanness or low rate of diabetes. It could be the high fat consumption.

There are several confounding elements.
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« Reply #185 on: June 28, 2013, 11:32:02 AM »

Here we go. Sugar consumption in France is far lower than in the USA:

There is a great disparity between U.S. sugar consumption and the sugar consumption of countries like France, Italy, and Japan (and most countries, actually).  When I say “sugar,” of course, I mean sucrose, high fructose corn syrup, beet sugar, cane sugar, and liquid fructose (e.g., fruit juice) to name just a few forms.  Why does this matter?  If you’re not currently up on the why-sugar-is-bad-for-you data, it’s worth reading this post, and watching the lecture by Dr. Lustig.  For a quicker answer, watch this video from 60 Minutes.

Think of sugar as a “metabolic bully” or the proverbial Trojan Horse of metabolic syndrome –

http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition
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« Reply #186 on: June 28, 2013, 11:23:36 PM »

So Adela brought my attention to a new study that JUST came out:

http://www.abstractsonline.com/Plan/ViewAbstract.aspx?sKey=5729427a-bf50-4c5b-b77b-59c1b0029843&cKey=efbbe9b6-4c3e-484f-bdc8-129af1de2f02&mKey=%7b89918D6D-3018-4EA9-9D4F-711F98A7AE5D%7d

Quote
In a randomized, crossover study, we assigned 54 patients with T2D to follow 2 regimens of a hypocaloric diet (-500 kcal/day), each for 12 weeks: six meals a day (A), and two meals a day, breakfast and lunch (B). The diet in both regimens had the same macronutrient and energy content. All subjects were examined at weeks 0, 12 and 24. Insulin secretory rate (ISR) and β-cell function were assessed during the standard meal tests. ISR was calculated by C-peptide deconvolution, and β-cell function was quantified with a mathematical model. Insulin sensitivity (OGIS) was calculated, which quantifies glucose clearance per unit change of insulin. Hepatic fat content (HFC) was measured by the proton magnetic resonance spectroscopy performed by 3T MR scanner (Magnetom - Trio Siemens). For statistical analysis, 2x2 crossover ANOVA was used.
Insulin secretion at the reference level and glucose sensitivity increased (p<0.05) comparably in both regimens. OGIS increased in both regimens (p<0.01), more in B (+8.2; 95% CI +3.4 to +13.1 ml.min−1m−2 in A vs. +21.0; 95% CI +16.1 to +26.0 ml.min−1m−2 in B; p<0.01). BMI decreased in both regimens (p<0.001), more in B (-0.82; 95% CI -0.94 to -0.69 kg.m-2 in A vs. -1.23; 95% CI -1.4 to -1.17 kg.m-2 in B; p<0.001). HFC decreased in response to both regimens (p<0.001), more in B (-3.4; 95% CI -3.8 to -3.1 % in A vs. -4.2; 95% CI -4.5 to -3.8% in B; p=0.03). Changes in glucose sensitivity and OGIS correlated negatively with changes in HFC (r=-0.28; p=0.02 and r=-0.47; p<0.001, respectively). After adjustment for changes in BMI the correlations were no longer significant.
Two meals a day led to a greater decrease in BMI and HFC and a greater increase in OGIS. Insulin secretion and glucose sensitivity increased comparably in both regimens. Our data suggest that eating fewer larger meals may be more beneficial than more frequent meals for patients with T2D.

This isn't officially published yet though.  And this is just one small study that is yet to be reproducible.  Nevertheless it's interesting.  However, it advocates breakfast and lunch.  Whereas, the idea of eating only ONE meal at dinner has been linked to decreased insulin sensitivity:

http://healthyeating.sfgate.com/negative-effects-eating-one-meal-day-3296.html

Quote
Two studies published in 2007 by U.S. government researchers in "The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition" and "Metabolism - Clinical and Experimental," looked at what happened when middle-aged people of normal weight were given one meal per day that contained the same number of calories as an alternative meal plan consisting of three meals per day. People consuming only one meal per day had higher blood pressure and blood sugar levels than people eating three meals per day.

So, I'm not backing off when I say one meal a day=diabetes.  There's a lot more reproducible research that corroborates with that view.

In addition, the problem with more frequent meals with some people is that the more frequent meals people eat tend to be more frequent big meals.  What I do is I have usually "2 meals", but that these meals are not eaten in one sitting.  I walk around a lot, and every 15 minutes, I go and have two or three bites of my food, and get back to work.  That's what "small frequent meals" means to me, and that's how it's done.  There's no need to "count your number of meals".

Marc1152:

I still don't have the power to prescribe yet.  I'm applying for residency positions coming up though.  In the meantime, the physicians I've been with usually have the conventional wisdom to try diet first, and if that doesn't work, to start statins, but to follow up with the patient to make sure no serious side-effects is missed.
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« Reply #187 on: June 28, 2013, 11:28:29 PM »

So Adela brought my attention to a new study that JUST came out:

http://www.abstractsonline.com/Plan/ViewAbstract.aspx?sKey=5729427a-bf50-4c5b-b77b-59c1b0029843&cKey=efbbe9b6-4c3e-484f-bdc8-129af1de2f02&mKey=%7b89918D6D-3018-4EA9-9D4F-711F98A7AE5D%7d

Quote
In a randomized, crossover study, we assigned 54 patients with T2D to follow 2 regimens of a hypocaloric diet (-500 kcal/day), each for 12 weeks: six meals a day (A), and two meals a day, breakfast and lunch (B). The diet in both regimens had the same macronutrient and energy content. All subjects were examined at weeks 0, 12 and 24. Insulin secretory rate (ISR) and β-cell function were assessed during the standard meal tests. ISR was calculated by C-peptide deconvolution, and β-cell function was quantified with a mathematical model. Insulin sensitivity (OGIS) was calculated, which quantifies glucose clearance per unit change of insulin. Hepatic fat content (HFC) was measured by the proton magnetic resonance spectroscopy performed by 3T MR scanner (Magnetom - Trio Siemens). For statistical analysis, 2x2 crossover ANOVA was used.
Insulin secretion at the reference level and glucose sensitivity increased (p<0.05) comparably in both regimens. OGIS increased in both regimens (p<0.01), more in B (+8.2; 95% CI +3.4 to +13.1 ml.min−1m−2 in A vs. +21.0; 95% CI +16.1 to +26.0 ml.min−1m−2 in B; p<0.01). BMI decreased in both regimens (p<0.001), more in B (-0.82; 95% CI -0.94 to -0.69 kg.m-2 in A vs. -1.23; 95% CI -1.4 to -1.17 kg.m-2 in B; p<0.001). HFC decreased in response to both regimens (p<0.001), more in B (-3.4; 95% CI -3.8 to -3.1 % in A vs. -4.2; 95% CI -4.5 to -3.8% in B; p=0.03). Changes in glucose sensitivity and OGIS correlated negatively with changes in HFC (r=-0.28; p=0.02 and r=-0.47; p<0.001, respectively). After adjustment for changes in BMI the correlations were no longer significant.
Two meals a day led to a greater decrease in BMI and HFC and a greater increase in OGIS. Insulin secretion and glucose sensitivity increased comparably in both regimens. Our data suggest that eating fewer larger meals may be more beneficial than more frequent meals for patients with T2D.

This isn't officially published yet though.  And this is just one small study that is yet to be reproducible.  Nevertheless it's interesting.  However, it advocates breakfast and lunch.  Whereas, the idea of eating only ONE meal at dinner has been linked to decreased insulin sensitivity:

http://healthyeating.sfgate.com/negative-effects-eating-one-meal-day-3296.html

Quote
Two studies published in 2007 by U.S. government researchers in "The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition" and "Metabolism - Clinical and Experimental," looked at what happened when middle-aged people of normal weight were given one meal per day that contained the same number of calories as an alternative meal plan consisting of three meals per day. People consuming only one meal per day had higher blood pressure and blood sugar levels than people eating three meals per day.

So, I'm not backing off when I say one meal a day=diabetes.  There's a lot more reproducible research that corroborates with that view.

In addition, the problem with more frequent meals with some people is that the more frequent meals people eat tend to be more frequent big meals.  What I do is I have usually "2 meals", but that these meals are not eaten in one sitting.  I walk around a lot, and every 15 minutes, I go and have two or three bites of my food, and get back to work.  That's what "small frequent meals" means to me, and that's how it's done.  There's no need to "count your number of meals".

Marc1152:

I still don't have the power to prescribe yet.  I'm applying for residency positions coming up though.  In the meantime, the physicians I've been with usually have the conventional wisdom to try diet first, and if that doesn't work, to start statins, but to follow up with the patient to make sure no serious side-effects is missed.

Yes.. but Smiley

Hunter Gatherers were ketone adapted. They were not burning glucose primarily in the first place. So I wonder if  the effects are the same when you eat one main meal is the same for a person burning ketones for fuel and for a person burning sugar.

Never the less, the evidence is that hunter gatherers both Paleolithic and those surviving up to now tended to eat one meal in the evening and scraps for "breakfast".. That may be simply born of necessity and unhealthy for them but if that pattern persisted for thousands of generations it is reasonable to beleive we have adapted to it.

Having one big insulin spike per day may be worse than several smaller ones. But having no insulin spike at all due to a high fat low carb diet may mean that the natural human pattern of one evening meal is fine.  

There is no benefit for people who have never had a heart attack in taking statins.. None. There is no decrease in heart attacks at all and you expose them to a higher cancer risk, accelerated dementia up to and including global amnesia, muscle weakness, liver problems, depression and now there is evidence that it may bring on diabetes, in exchange for  absolutely no decrease in heart attacks.

In people who have had a heart attack there is a modest improvement in the rate of having a second heart attack but death from all causes increases so it is a wash. Plus, the benefit is likely due to the anti inflammatory effect of statins and not the cholesterol lowering effect.



« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 11:52:29 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #188 on: June 28, 2013, 11:37:37 PM »

Also...wanted to add that statins is a must prescribe for people with cardiovascular disease.
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« Reply #189 on: June 29, 2013, 10:56:14 AM »

Also...wanted to add that statins is a must prescribe for people with cardiovascular disease.

Let's not do a real big sidetrack. If you want go to the Nutrition and Diet thread to discuss or new thread.

Statins are the biggest scandal in 100 years in my amateur opinion.

When you look closely at that the studies big Pharma puts out it is very disappointing.

For example they will publish bogus statistics. The will say there was a "54% improvement in the rate of heart attack with their drug" but they  use relative numbers.

In other words the difference between placebo and statin came out to .0000000250 and the placebo .0000000135 therefore the statin was 54% better.. LOL when really there was mathematically and clinically no meaningful difference between the placebo and the statin. Bunch of crooks Smiley

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« Reply #190 on: June 29, 2013, 01:06:59 PM »

Also...wanted to add that statins is a must prescribe for people with cardiovascular disease.

Let's not do a real big sidetrack. If you want go to the Nutrition and Diet thread to discuss or new thread.

Statins are the biggest scandal in 100 years in my amateur opinion.

When you look closely at that the studies big Pharma puts out it is very disappointing.

For example they will publish bogus statistics. The will say there was a "54% improvement in the rate of heart attack with their drug" but they  use relative numbers.

In other words the difference between placebo and statin came out to .0000000250 and the placebo .0000000135 therefore the statin was 54% better.. LOL when really there was mathematically and clinically no meaningful difference between the placebo and the statin. Bunch of crooks Smiley


I am not sure what to say. Sidetrack?  I'm confused.

You mean like just for mere dyslipidemia you want to discuss, and not a CVA?

Statins are actually very good drugs. There's plenty of research not funded by Pharma that can vouch for statins. 

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« Reply #191 on: June 29, 2013, 01:16:44 PM »

Quote
There is no benefit for people who have never had a heart attack in taking statins.. None. There is no decrease in heart attacks at all and you expose them to a higher cancer risk, accelerated dementia up to and including global amnesia, muscle weakness, liver problems, depression and now there is evidence that it may bring on diabetes, in exchange for  absolutely no decrease in heart attacks.

I just saw this...

Can you substantiate this claim?  Because to be honest, I have heard there's so much overwhelming evidence for the support of statins, I would lose my license if I didn't even offer it to you after a CVA. What you're staying is a very serious claim, and we would tend to lump people who say this with all the "vaccines cause autism" wackos.
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« Reply #192 on: June 29, 2013, 01:35:57 PM »

Also...wanted to add that statins is a must prescribe for people with cardiovascular disease.

Let's not do a real big sidetrack. If you want go to the Nutrition and Diet thread to discuss or new thread.

Statins are the biggest scandal in 100 years in my amateur opinion.

When you look closely at that the studies big Pharma puts out it is very disappointing.

For example they will publish bogus statistics. The will say there was a "54% improvement in the rate of heart attack with their drug" but they  use relative numbers.

In other words the difference between placebo and statin came out to .0000000250 and the placebo .0000000135 therefore the statin was 54% better.. LOL when really there was mathematically and clinically no meaningful difference between the placebo and the statin. Bunch of crooks Smiley


I am not sure what to say. Sidetrack?  I'm confused.

You mean like just for mere dyslipidemia you want to discuss, and not a CVA?

Statins are actually very good drugs. There's plenty of research not funded by Pharma that can vouch for statins. 



Statins are harmful and have no benefit at all to people who have never had a heart attack . Almost no one should take them.

It turns out that there is no credible correlation between high cholesterol and rate of death from heart disease.

A large life insurance company Genworth financial recently dropped their requirements for cholesterol testing unless there is a history of cholesterol well over 300. When they reviewed their book of business they found no correlation between high cholesterol and death from heart disease.
People with low cholesterol and high cholesterol have the exact same outcomes.

Statins do lower cholesterol. That is what the studies do show, They work.   The important question is if that is a good thing
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« Reply #193 on: June 29, 2013, 02:33:10 PM »


Quote
Marc, some of his opinions coincide with yours but they also deviate.

Not that I am aware of. He is partners with Gary Taubes in NuScience, which I linked to before. They are both low carb high fat proponents
Partners? you must mean something else or you are not talking about Paul Saltman. He also was not a low carb proponent. He tauted glucose.

Quote
The most nutrient dense foods are meat and fish, not pizza LOL
This was in reference to the TPM bag. I never LOL about what a person writes or says (unless it is a joke). If you really do this you should stop.

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When you eat is interesting but a side show. The far bigger issue is what you eat , not how much or when.

If you eat foods that interfere with your bodies hormonal signaling it will respond in ways that you may not like.

Here is some idle speculation on my part:

If you are eating plants and tubors and beans and grains and very little animal fat, you Paleolithic body is being told that the heards are gone and you are scrounging up food the best you can. No hunting, just gathering. The Buffalo are gone and so the body conserves fat to wait it out.

This may be why obese people get hungry after exercise and lean people don't.. Now you are running around and lifting and bending, so your body is saying

 " OMG..is this it? Are you really really sure I should release all this fat now , especially since we have been conserving it for.. oh say.. 45 years ?"

If you body is not holding fat, you can exercise ( Hunt) and you body will suppress appetite so you can roam farther and still be comfortable.

I did not understand this and yes my being a side show is unfortunate.
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« Reply #194 on: June 29, 2013, 02:33:42 PM »

Also...wanted to add that statins is a must prescribe for people with cardiovascular disease.

This is true..........for those whose primary or only therapeutic "tools" consist of pharmaceuticals (not all of which are bad, and not all of which that are bad are always bad) and surgery.

Go to Amazon and search for "the myth of cholesterol".

Read "The Controlled Clinical Trial: An Analysis". http://www.amazon.com/Controlled-Clinical-Trial-Analysis/dp/091638604X/ref=sr_1_9?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372432146&sr=1-9&keywords=Harris+Coulter

The criticisms Coulter makes about studies of pharmaceuticals applies, imo, to studies on supplements and nutritionals, most of which, however, are nowhere near as dangerous as most pharmaceuticals.

Other healing modalities, such as acupuncture, ayurvedic medicine, homeopathy, and both Chinese and Western herbology offer much safer efficacious treatments than many modern western pharmaceutical industry driven therapies.  And, just for emphasis, there most certainly IS an important place for "western medicine" in our society, most especially in emergency medicine and trauma care.  But it shouldn't have a monopoly on everything else.

Widen your horizons.  You will be a far better and far more effective healer.


See these articles (and others), written by a doctor of pharmacy (PharmD.)
https://expertnutrition.com/cms/statin-drugs-side-effects-outweigh-benefits/#.Uc8mgZzL1kM
https://expertnutrition.com/cms/fish-oil-outperforms-statins-and-other-medications/#.Uc8nCpzL1kM
https://expertnutrition.com/cms/statins-worsen-heart-function-coq10-reverses-the-negative-effects/#.Uc8qLZzL1kM
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« Reply #195 on: June 29, 2013, 02:39:11 PM »

http://healthyeating.sfgate.com/negative-effects-eating-one-meal-day-3296.html

Quote
Two studies published in 2007 by U.S. government researchers in "The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition" and "Metabolism - Clinical and Experimental," looked at what happened when middle-aged people of normal weight were given one meal per day that contained the same number of calories as an alternative meal plan consisting of three meals per day. People consuming only one meal per day had higher blood pressure and blood sugar levels than people eating three meals per day.

So, I'm not backing off when I say one meal a day=diabetes.  There's a lot more reproducible research that corroborates with that view.

Thanks, I will look up the refs at the bottom of the article.
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« Reply #196 on: June 29, 2013, 02:48:23 PM »

It's true that homeopathy is indeed safer; small doses of water rarely have negative side effects.  police
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« Reply #197 on: June 29, 2013, 03:24:02 PM »

Quote
Statins are harmful and have no benefit at all to people who have never had a heart attack . Almost no one should take them.

Ok...I was talkin about those who already have had an MI or stroke, where we are pretty much required to offer statins base on the evidence of DECREASED MORTALITY RISK (not just mere cholesterol numbers).  I haven't studied the evidence for overall dyslipidemia, but it is considered in general as an option. 

So those with MIs and strokes, the benefits of statins outweigh the risks, and certainly outweighs not prescribing statins. And starting statins at the outset of the accident is far better than giving statins at discharge.
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« Reply #198 on: June 29, 2013, 03:32:04 PM »

Also...wanted to add that statins is a must prescribe for people with cardiovascular disease.

This is true..........for those whose primary or only therapeutic "tools" consist of pharmaceuticals (not all of which are bad, and not all of which that are bad are always bad) and surgery.

Go to Amazon and search for "the myth of cholesterol".

Read "The Controlled Clinical Trial: An Analysis". http://www.amazon.com/Controlled-Clinical-Trial-Analysis/dp/091638604X/ref=sr_1_9?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372432146&sr=1-9&keywords=Harris+Coulter

The criticisms Coulter makes about studies of pharmaceuticals applies, imo, to studies on supplements and nutritionals, most of which, however, are nowhere near as dangerous as most pharmaceuticals.

Other healing modalities, such as acupuncture, ayurvedic medicine, homeopathy, and both Chinese and Western herbology offer much safer efficacious treatments than many modern western pharmaceutical industry driven therapies.  And, just for emphasis, there most certainly IS an important place for "western medicine" in our society, most especially in emergency medicine and trauma care.  But it shouldn't have a monopoly on everything else.

Widen your horizons.  You will be a far better and far more effective healer.


See these articles (and others), written by a doctor of pharmacy (PharmD.)
https://expertnutrition.com/cms/statin-drugs-side-effects-outweigh-benefits/#.Uc8mgZzL1kM
https://expertnutrition.com/cms/fish-oil-outperforms-statins-and-other-medications/#.Uc8nCpzL1kM
https://expertnutrition.com/cms/statins-worsen-heart-function-coq10-reverses-the-negative-effects/#.Uc8qLZzL1kM
There is research in the last couple of months that continue to support the use of statins for those who already suffered from major vascular accidents.  Not prescribing statins at this point would be a major breach of my hippocratic oath.

I'll share with you some of those links in a bit.
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« Reply #199 on: June 29, 2013, 04:25:22 PM »

Statins and Stroke:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23287777

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23758549

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1916852-treatment#aw2aab6b6c15

Statins and MI:

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/155919-treatment#aw2aab6b6c21

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23430269/?i=19&from=cad%20statin
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« Reply #200 on: June 29, 2013, 05:19:43 PM »

Here's a nice review article on statins and CAD:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3651980/

Quote
Statins are very effective and safe drugs for preventing and treating coronary artery diseases regardless of cholesterol levels. However, further research is needed to elucidate whether statins are effective in patients with advanced chronic disease such as chronic renal insufficiency or heart failure. In the field of real clinical practice, statins should be prescribed in all patients with coronary artery disease unless the patient presents with several complications such as rhabdomyolysis or elevated liver enzymes.
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« Reply #201 on: June 29, 2013, 08:43:53 PM »

It's true that homeopathy is indeed safer; small doses of water rarely have negative side effects.  police

What took you so long?   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #202 on: June 29, 2013, 08:47:15 PM »

It's true that homeopathy is indeed safer; small doses of water rarely have negative side effects.  police

What took you so long?   Roll Eyes

I was quite depressed for Mina, and saying some prayers for him. I can click back on my browser and ignore this stuff (not just the homeopathy thing, but a lot of what's been posted). But that dude is gonna have to face this stuff almost every day for the next fifty years. What a bummer for him.
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« Reply #203 on: June 29, 2013, 08:52:15 PM »

It's true that homeopathy is indeed safer; small doses of water rarely have negative side effects.  police

What took you so long?   Roll Eyes

I was quite depressed for Mina, and saying some prayers for him. I can click back on my browser and ignore this stuff (not just the homeopathy thing, but a lot of what's been posted). But that dude is gonna have to face this stuff almost every day for the next fifty years. What a bummer for him.

hehehe that's the truth.
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« Reply #204 on: June 29, 2013, 09:06:27 PM »


"In the largest meta-analysis to date, statin therapy at stroke onset was associated with improved outcome, a finding not observed in studies restricted to thrombolysis-treated patients. Randomized trials of statin therapy in acute ischemic stroke are needed."



"In acute ischemic stroke, patients receiving late statin treatment carried a poorer clinical outcome than those with earlier statin initiation. Inhospital statin use after an acute ischemic stroke did not increase the risk of cerebral hemorrhage."

Interesting, but hardly conclusive.


Sorry, no time at the moment for the others.  There's no doubt that statins do things, some of them positive.  Some people (Mercola, for example) have suggested that up to 17% of statin users experience negative side effects like nausea, muscle pain, etc.  I'm not going to get into a debate to try to prove that statins are evil.  My argument is that a)like most pharmaceuticals, they can frequently produce some very negative side effects, and b) they should not be used with such wild abandon as they are (and like antibiotics have been and look where that got us), and c) there are many other, most of them much more benign and much less dangerous, therapies available to treat and prevent heart disease and stroke susceptibility. 

Expand your horizons.  Open your mind to other possibilities.  You will be a much more effective healer, if indeed, that is what you strive to be.  (But I already said that, didn't I  Grin?)  By the way, kudos to you for doing what you do and intend to do.  The call of a physician is noble and needed.  Be a good one.  Don't let it go to your head  Cool.

Ever hear the joke about what the difference is between God and a doctor?  God doesn't believe He's a doctor.  Wink
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« Reply #205 on: June 29, 2013, 09:07:18 PM »

It's true that homeopathy is indeed safer; small doses of water rarely have negative side effects.  police

What took you so long?   Roll Eyes

I was quite depressed for Mina, and saying some prayers for him. I can click back on my browser and ignore this stuff (not just the homeopathy thing, but a lot of what's been posted). But that dude is gonna have to face this stuff almost every day for the next fifty years. What a bummer for him.

Is someone holding a gun to his head, making him do what he's doing?
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« Reply #206 on: June 29, 2013, 09:14:18 PM »

It's true that homeopathy is indeed safer; small doses of water rarely have negative side effects.  police

What took you so long?   Roll Eyes

I was quite depressed for Mina, and saying some prayers for him. I can click back on my browser and ignore this stuff (not just the homeopathy thing, but a lot of what's been posted). But that dude is gonna have to face this stuff almost every day for the next fifty years. What a bummer for him.

Is someone holding a gun to his head, making him do what he's doing?

I guess the potential personal suffering is outweighed by the chance to save lives.
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« Reply #207 on: June 29, 2013, 09:36:46 PM »

It's true that homeopathy is indeed safer; small doses of water rarely have negative side effects.  police

What took you so long?   Roll Eyes

I was quite depressed for Mina, and saying some prayers for him. I can click back on my browser and ignore this stuff (not just the homeopathy thing, but a lot of what's been posted). But that dude is gonna have to face this stuff almost every day for the next fifty years. What a bummer for him.

Is someone holding a gun to his head, making him do what he's doing?

Really?  Roll Eyes

I'm just passionate about I've learned.  I don't like it when some people come out with things blown way out of proportion.  Check out the last article I linked. It reviewed the risks literature, and it has shown the risks are relatively rare.

Anyways, yes, I'm open to new studies of course.  But I challenge you if anyone has an MI or a stroke. You'll be hard pressed to find any physician that won't use statins. For God's sake, it's an oft-repeated exam question too, and the boards love to test on most common treatments for patients.
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« Reply #208 on: June 30, 2013, 10:16:41 AM »

It's true that homeopathy is indeed safer; small doses of water rarely have negative side effects.  police

What took you so long?   Roll Eyes

I was quite depressed for Mina, and saying some prayers for him. I can click back on my browser and ignore this stuff (not just the homeopathy thing, but a lot of what's been posted). But that dude is gonna have to face this stuff almost every day for the next fifty years. What a bummer for him.

Is someone holding a gun to his head, making him do what he's doing?

Really?  Roll Eyes

I'm just passionate about I've learned.  I don't like it when some people come out with things blown way out of proportion.  Check out the last article I linked. It reviewed the risks literature, and it has shown the risks are relatively rare.

Anyways, yes, I'm open to new studies of course.  But I challenge you if anyone has an MI or a stroke. You'll be hard pressed to find any physician that won't use statins. For God's sake, it's an oft-repeated exam question too, and the boards love to test on most common treatments for patients.

Good to be passionate about it.  All I'm saying is please don't let one healing modality, one healing paradigm become the be all and end all of the scope of your learning and practice.  Broaden your horizons.

I'm all too familiar with what physicians use when, especially with strokes and MI's and I'm not arguing what they actually do, I'm suggesting that there are other things that CAN be done, long and short term, that do not fall within the purview of conventional pharmaceuticals.  I also have heard over many years from many people, anecdotally of course (i.e. their own personal experiences), of a number of debilitating side-effects from statins.

God bless!
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« Reply #209 on: June 30, 2013, 10:39:54 AM »

All I'm saying is please don't let one healing modality, one healing paradigm become the be all and end all of the scope of your learning and practice.  Broaden your horizons.

[breaking my promise to stay out of this thread  police ]

That's probably the most excellent advice I've ever seen here, and useful for an awful lot of situations!  Cool
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« Reply #210 on: June 30, 2013, 04:32:26 PM »


Quote
Marc, some of his opinions coincide with yours but they also deviate.

Not that I am aware of. He is partners with Gary Taubes in NuScience, which I linked to before. They are both low carb high fat proponents
Partners? you must mean something else or you are not talking about Paul Saltman. He also was not a low carb proponent. He tauted glucose.

Quote
The most nutrient dense foods are meat and fish, not pizza LOL
This was in reference to the TPM bag. I never LOL about what a person writes or says (unless it is a joke). If you really do this you should stop.

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When you eat is interesting but a side show. The far bigger issue is what you eat , not how much or when.

If you eat foods that interfere with your bodies hormonal signaling it will respond in ways that you may not like.

Here is some idle speculation on my part:

If you are eating plants and tubors and beans and grains and very little animal fat, you Paleolithic body is being told that the heards are gone and you are scrounging up food the best you can. No hunting, just gathering. The Buffalo are gone and so the body conserves fat to wait it out.

This may be why obese people get hungry after exercise and lean people don't.. Now you are running around and lifting and bending, so your body is saying

 " OMG..is this it? Are you really really sure I should release all this fat now , especially since we have been conserving it for.. oh say.. 45 years ?"

If you body is not holding fat, you can exercise ( Hunt) and you body will suppress appetite so you can roam farther and still be comfortable.

I did not understand this and yes my being a side show is unfortunate.

Partners? you must mean something else or you are not talking about Paul Saltman. He also was not a low carb proponent. He tauted glucose.


Dr. Attia and Gary Taube ( author of "Good Calories, Bad Calories" and "Why we get Fat") are co-founder of NU Science, a foundation meant to promote good scientific research concerning Low Carb High Fat diets.. Here is the link again:

http://nusi.org/about-us/a-letter-from-the-founders/gary-taubes/#.UdCVuW2PyhE

This was in reference to the TPM bag. I never LOL about what a person writes or says (unless it is a joke). If you really do this you should stop.


Sorry, I dont know what a TPM bag is. Meat is one of the most nutrient dense food you can eat. 

I did not understand this and yes my being a side show is unfortunate.

Say what? No one called you a side show. Meal timing is a secondary issue IMHO.. How in the world you can be so touchy as to be able to internalize that into a personal slight is very impressive.
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« Reply #211 on: June 30, 2013, 04:54:09 PM »

It's true that homeopathy is indeed safer; small doses of water rarely have negative side effects.  police

What took you so long?   Roll Eyes

I was quite depressed for Mina, and saying some prayers for him. I can click back on my browser and ignore this stuff (not just the homeopathy thing, but a lot of what's been posted). But that dude is gonna have to face this stuff almost every day for the next fifty years. What a bummer for him.

Is someone holding a gun to his head, making him do what he's doing?

Really?  Roll Eyes

I'm just passionate about I've learned.  I don't like it when some people come out with things blown way out of proportion.  Check out the last article I linked. It reviewed the risks literature, and it has shown the risks are relatively rare.

Anyways, yes, I'm open to new studies of course.  But I challenge you if anyone has an MI or a stroke. You'll be hard pressed to find any physician that won't use statins. For God's sake, it's an oft-repeated exam question too, and the boards love to test on most common treatments for patients.

The reason you would be hard pressed to find a physician who wont prescribe statins to someone who already has had an MI or stroke is that would be the only category where they have shown to do any good. But that good is only slight and guess what, the risks are so deplorable that the the death rate goes up from all causes. There is no net improvement in mortality if you take Statins if you have had a stroke or MI.

The bigger crime is that they hare giving statins to everyone by in large even if you have never had an event. In that case giving statins is all risk and no benefit what so ever.

If your hypothesis is that Cholesterol causes heart disease ( and therefore cholesterol lowering drugs must me good) but people have heart attacks and strokes even when they have low cholesterol and people dont have heart attacks or strokes even when they do have high cholesterol..it may be time time to rethink your hypothesis.

Here is an article about Statins and CoQ10. Statins not only work in your liver to block cholesterol but they block other things like the production of CoQ10 which is vital to proper heart function. Artificially lowering you CoQ10 you increase your chance of heart failure.

At least one Pharmaceutical company considered adding CoQ10 to their statins but decided against it so as not to bring attention to the issue..  Bastards

Spectacular Study on Heart Failure and the Supplement CoQ10
June 10 18:40 in CoQ10, Heart Disease, High Blood Pressure, Migraine, Parkinson's disease

http://www.dietdoctor.com/?s=coq10&submit.x=3&submit.y=9

Can a safe dietary supplement dramatically prolong life for people with heart failure? Yes, if we can believe the results from a new study.

The study enrolled people with severe heart failure. This is a condition where the heart can barely pump blood around the body any more. This, for example, after previous heart attacks have damaged the heart (a broken heart, literally). People with severe heart failure run a large risk of dying within a few years.

The study tested the dietary supplement coenzyme Q10 in heart failure. CoQ10 is an endogenous cholesterol-like substance involved in energy production in the cells. Particularly the heart contains a lot of Q10, probably because it takes so much energy  to constantly pump blood. Q10 is also found in the food that we eat, particularly in meat and fish.

Cholesterol-lowering drugs, known as statins, are used by almost all people with heart disease. Interestingly enough, statins also reduce the production of the cholesterol-like substance Q10, and deficiency in Q10 has been shown to worsen the prognosis in heart failure. So what happens if you supplement with the substance?

Half of the study’s 420 participants with severe heart failure received supplementation with 300 mg CoQ10 daily for two years. The other half received a placebo. What do you think happened? Continue Reading →
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« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 04:58:47 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #212 on: June 30, 2013, 10:09:14 PM »


Quote
Marc, some of his opinions coincide with yours but they also deviate.

Not that I am aware of. He is partners with Gary Taubes in NuScience, which I linked to before. They are both low carb high fat proponents
Partners? you must mean something else or you are not talking about Paul Saltman. He also was not a low carb proponent. He tauted glucose.

Quote
The most nutrient dense foods are meat and fish, not pizza LOL
This was in reference to the TPM bag. I never LOL about what a person writes or says (unless it is a joke). If you really do this you should stop.

Quote
When you eat is interesting but a side show. The far bigger issue is what you eat , not how much or when.

If you eat foods that interfere with your bodies hormonal signaling it will respond in ways that you may not like.

Here is some idle speculation on my part:

If you are eating plants and tubors and beans and grains and very little animal fat, you Paleolithic body is being told that the heards are gone and you are scrounging up food the best you can. No hunting, just gathering. The Buffalo are gone and so the body conserves fat to wait it out.

This may be why obese people get hungry after exercise and lean people don't.. Now you are running around and lifting and bending, so your body is saying

 " OMG..is this it? Are you really really sure I should release all this fat now , especially since we have been conserving it for.. oh say.. 45 years ?"

If you body is not holding fat, you can exercise ( Hunt) and you body will suppress appetite so you can roam farther and still be comfortable.

I did not understand this and yes my being a side show is unfortunate.

Partners? you must mean something else or you are not talking about Paul Saltman. He also was not a low carb proponent. He tauted glucose.


Dr. Attia and Gary Taube ( author of "Good Calories, Bad Calories" and "Why we get Fat") are co-founder of NU Science, a foundation meant to promote good scientific research concerning Low Carb High Fat diets.. Here is the link again:

http://nusi.org/about-us/a-letter-from-the-founders/gary-taubes/#.UdCVuW2PyhE

This was in reference to the TPM bag. I never LOL about what a person writes or says (unless it is a joke). If you really do this you should stop.


Sorry, I dont know what a TPM bag is. Meat is one of the most nutrient dense food you can eat. 

I did not understand this and yes my being a side show is unfortunate.

Say what? No one called you a side show. Meal timing is a secondary issue IMHO.. How in the world you can be so touchy as to be able to internalize that into a personal slight is very impressive.

Marc I am still trying to figure out the connection of Attia and Taube with Saltman. Granted the California diet book was a UC-system wide book, but I do not know the connection of these two people.

From my understanding, a TPM bag is what you need to live if you do no require fiber.

The side show was my doing. For this particular thread, I thought it important to indicate my faults.
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« Reply #213 on: June 30, 2013, 10:29:19 PM »

Until they come up with something better than statins, this is the protocol I must uphold for MI and Stroke patients. There is no "expanding horizons" on this particular issue.  How about you apply to medical school, study your behind for four years, go and practice, and then come back and say statins are bad for you.  If the research I gave isn't enough (one of which addressed the side effects issue) then I don't know what else to tell you.  Practically every medication has serious side effects, but for some people the benefits outweigh the risks.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 10:31:26 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #214 on: June 30, 2013, 10:32:46 PM »

Here's a nice review article on statins and CAD:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3651980/

Quote
Statins are very effective and safe drugs for preventing and treating coronary artery diseases regardless of cholesterol levels. However, further research is needed to elucidate whether statins are effective in patients with advanced chronic disease such as chronic renal insufficiency or heart failure. In the field of real clinical practice, statins should be prescribed in all patients with coronary artery disease unless the patient presents with several complications such as rhabdomyolysis or elevated liver enzymes.
This is from April 2013
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« Reply #215 on: June 30, 2013, 11:06:29 PM »


Quote
Marc, some of his opinions coincide with yours but they also deviate.

Not that I am aware of. He is partners with Gary Taubes in NuScience, which I linked to before. They are both low carb high fat proponents
Partners? you must mean something else or you are not talking about Paul Saltman. He also was not a low carb proponent. He tauted glucose.

Quote
The most nutrient dense foods are meat and fish, not pizza LOL
This was in reference to the TPM bag. I never LOL about what a person writes or says (unless it is a joke). If you really do this you should stop.

Quote
When you eat is interesting but a side show. The far bigger issue is what you eat , not how much or when.

If you eat foods that interfere with your bodies hormonal signaling it will respond in ways that you may not like.

Here is some idle speculation on my part:

If you are eating plants and tubors and beans and grains and very little animal fat, you Paleolithic body is being told that the heards are gone and you are scrounging up food the best you can. No hunting, just gathering. The Buffalo are gone and so the body conserves fat to wait it out.

This may be why obese people get hungry after exercise and lean people don't.. Now you are running around and lifting and bending, so your body is saying

 " OMG..is this it? Are you really really sure I should release all this fat now , especially since we have been conserving it for.. oh say.. 45 years ?"

If you body is not holding fat, you can exercise ( Hunt) and you body will suppress appetite so you can roam farther and still be comfortable.

I did not understand this and yes my being a side show is unfortunate.

Partners? you must mean something else or you are not talking about Paul Saltman. He also was not a low carb proponent. He tauted glucose.


Dr. Attia and Gary Taube ( author of "Good Calories, Bad Calories" and "Why we get Fat") are co-founder of NU Science, a foundation meant to promote good scientific research concerning Low Carb High Fat diets.. Here is the link again:

http://nusi.org/about-us/a-letter-from-the-founders/gary-taubes/#.UdCVuW2PyhE

This was in reference to the TPM bag. I never LOL about what a person writes or says (unless it is a joke). If you really do this you should stop.


Sorry, I dont know what a TPM bag is. Meat is one of the most nutrient dense food you can eat. 

I did not understand this and yes my being a side show is unfortunate.

Say what? No one called you a side show. Meal timing is a secondary issue IMHO.. How in the world you can be so touchy as to be able to internalize that into a personal slight is very impressive.

Marc I am still trying to figure out the connection of Attia and Taube with Saltman. Granted the California diet book was a UC-system wide book, but I do not know the connection of these two people.

From my understanding, a TPM bag is what you need to live if you do no require fiber.

The side show was my doing. For this particular thread, I thought it important to indicate my faults.

Gary Taubes and Dr. Attia are co founders of NuScience which I linked to . I have no idea who Dr. Saltman is
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« Reply #216 on: June 30, 2013, 11:22:57 PM »

Here's a nice review article on statins and CAD:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3651980/

Quote
Statins are very effective and safe drugs for preventing and treating coronary artery diseases regardless of cholesterol levels. However, further research is needed to elucidate whether statins are effective in patients with advanced chronic disease such as chronic renal insufficiency or heart failure. In the field of real clinical practice, statins should be prescribed in all patients with coronary artery disease unless the patient presents with several complications such as rhabdomyolysis or elevated liver enzymes.
This is from April 2013

Party line... The facts dont bare that out.

There is scant benefit to people who already have had an event but the side effects are so dangerous that there is a significant increase in the death rate from all causes wiping out the slight benefit. And that benefit is most likely from the anti-inflammatory effects of statins and not from the cholesterol lowering effects. It would be easier to simply give these people an anti-inflammatory and skip the dangers of statins but there isnt any money to be mad with that approach.

There is absolutely no benefit to people who have never had an coronary event in taking statins. None. No benefit, only increases in sudden heart failure, dementia, liver complications, depression, brain fog and if your cholesterol goes too low, you increase your cancer risk.


The Lipid Heart Theory was invented by Dr. Ansel Keys. It said that eating fat caused cholesterol to go up and increased the rate of heart disease.

His "Seven Nations Study" seemed to demonstrate that in countries where the population ate lots of fat, there was also increased heart disease.
That is the grand daddy of all these studies that everything else has built upon.

The problem was that the "Seven Nations Study" was rigged. Keys didn't study seven countries, he studied 28. He only included the seven that supported his hypothesis..Go figure... He left out the countries where they ate lots of fat but had low rates of heart disease and he left out all the countries that ate low fat diets but had high rates of heart disease...

It's been down hill since then . Crappy science built upon more crappy science.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8WA5wcaHp4
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« Reply #217 on: July 01, 2013, 12:21:32 AM »


Quote
Marc, some of his opinions coincide with yours but they also deviate.

Not that I am aware of. He is partners with Gary Taubes in NuScience, which I linked to before. They are both low carb high fat proponents

Partners? you must mean something else or you are not talking about Paul Saltman. He also was not a low carb proponent. He tauted glucose.

Quote
The most nutrient dense foods are meat and fish, not pizza LOL
This was in reference to the TPM bag. I never LOL about what a person writes or says (unless it is a joke). If you really do this you should stop.

Quote
When you eat is interesting but a side show. The far bigger issue is what you eat , not how much or when.

If you eat foods that interfere with your bodies hormonal signaling it will respond in ways that you may not like.

Here is some idle speculation on my part:

If you are eating plants and tubors and beans and grains and very little animal fat, you Paleolithic body is being told that the heards are gone and you are scrounging up food the best you can. No hunting, just gathering. The Buffalo are gone and so the body conserves fat to wait it out.

This may be why obese people get hungry after exercise and lean people don't.. Now you are running around and lifting and bending, so your body is saying

 " OMG..is this it? Are you really really sure I should release all this fat now , especially since we have been conserving it for.. oh say.. 45 years ?"

If you body is not holding fat, you can exercise ( Hunt) and you body will suppress appetite so you can roam farther and still be comfortable.

I did not understand this and yes my being a side show is unfortunate.

Partners? you must mean something else or you are not talking about Paul Saltman. He also was not a low carb proponent. He tauted glucose.


Dr. Attia and Gary Taube ( author of "Good Calories, Bad Calories" and "Why we get Fat") are co-founder of NU Science, a foundation meant to promote good scientific research concerning Low Carb High Fat diets.. Here is the link again:

http://nusi.org/about-us/a-letter-from-the-founders/gary-taubes/#.UdCVuW2PyhE

This was in reference to the TPM bag. I never LOL about what a person writes or says (unless it is a joke). If you really do this you should stop.


Sorry, I dont know what a TPM bag is. Meat is one of the most nutrient dense food you can eat. 

I did not understand this and yes my being a side show is unfortunate.

Say what? No one called you a side show. Meal timing is a secondary issue IMHO.. How in the world you can be so touchy as to be able to internalize that into a personal slight is very impressive.

Marc I am still trying to figure out the connection of Attia and Taube with Saltman. Granted the California diet book was a UC-system wide book, but I do not know the connection of these two people.

From my understanding, a TPM bag is what you need to live if you do no require fiber.

The side show was my doing. For this particular thread, I thought it important to indicate my faults.

Gary Taubes and Dr. Attia are co founders of NuScience which I linked to . I have no idea who Dr. Saltman is

You should have clarified this when I asked you in post 193.

I know who Dr. Saltman is. That is all that matters.

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« Reply #218 on: July 01, 2013, 09:31:15 AM »

Until they come up with something better than statins, this is the protocol I must uphold for MI and Stroke patients. There is no "expanding horizons" on this particular issue.  How about you apply to medical school, study your behind for four years, go and practice, and then come back and say statins are bad for you.  If the research I gave isn't enough (one of which addressed the side effects issue) then I don't know what else to tell you.  Practically every medication has serious side effects, but for some people the benefits outweigh the risks.

Okay.  I tried.  Do what you think you must do, and may God bless your efforts!

I'm way too old, not well-enough educated, and probably too dumb to get into med. school.  Besides, I never, ever, not in my wildest imaginings wanted to become a "doctor".  Not my calling.

And yes, you CAN, if you will, expand your horizons on this particular issue as well as a whole host of others when it comes to treating people and their ailments.  You are limited only by yourself and your prejudices.  But...I've said my piece about this.  I'll let you and Marc (who is very well-informed about this--much more so than most of the many m.d.'s I've come across) and whomever else feels so inclined continue to argue about the details.  Enjoy.

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« Reply #219 on: July 01, 2013, 09:57:36 AM »

Until they come up with something better than statins, this is the protocol I must uphold for MI and Stroke patients. There is no "expanding horizons" on this particular issue.  How about you apply to medical school, study your behind for four years, go and practice, and then come back and say statins are bad for you.  If the research I gave isn't enough (one of which addressed the side effects issue) then I don't know what else to tell you.  Practically every medication has serious side effects, but for some people the benefits outweigh the risks.

Okay.  I tried.  Do what you think you must do, and may God bless your efforts!

I'm way too old, not well-enough educated, and probably too dumb to get into med. school.  Besides, I never, ever, not in my wildest imaginings wanted to become a "doctor".  Not my calling.

And yes, you CAN, if you will, expand your horizons on this particular issue as well as a whole host of others when it comes to treating people and their ailments.  You are limited only by yourself and your prejudices.  But...I've said my piece about this.  I'll let you and Marc (who is very well-informed about this--much more so than most of the many m.d.'s I've come across) and whomever else feels so inclined continue to argue about the details.  Enjoy.



I dont think we need to argue. I am very happy that there is a real MD helping to discuss this stuff. It helps me out since I am no scientist by a long shot and not knowing science well there can be connections that I dont understand.

For example when my  wife studied for the Bar many many years ago, I helped her and quizzed her. Sometime she would ask me what I thought the answer was. I was often wrong. She explained to me that while my answer was perfectly logical I did not know the Law which often confounds what seems to be the logical answer.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 09:58:18 AM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #220 on: July 01, 2013, 10:07:33 AM »

Until they come up with something better than statins, this is the protocol I must uphold for MI and Stroke patients. There is no "expanding horizons" on this particular issue.  How about you apply to medical school, study your behind for four years, go and practice, and then come back and say statins are bad for you.  If the research I gave isn't enough (one of which addressed the side effects issue) then I don't know what else to tell you.  Practically every medication has serious side effects, but for some people the benefits outweigh the risks.

Okay.  I tried.  Do what you think you must do, and may God bless your efforts!

I'm way too old, not well-enough educated, and probably too dumb to get into med. school.  Besides, I never, ever, not in my wildest imaginings wanted to become a "doctor".  Not my calling.

And yes, you CAN, if you will, expand your horizons on this particular issue as well as a whole host of others when it comes to treating people and their ailments.  You are limited only by yourself and your prejudices.  But...I've said my piece about this.  I'll let you and Marc (who is very well-informed about this--much more so than most of the many m.d.'s I've come across) and whomever else feels so inclined continue to argue about the details.  Enjoy.



I dont think we need to argue. I am very happy that there is a real MD helping to discuss this stuff. It helps me out since I am no scientist by a long shot and not knowing science well there can be connections that I dont understand.

For example when my  wife studied for the Bar many many years ago, I helped her and quizzed her. Sometime she would ask me what I thought the answer was. I was often wrong. She explained to me that while my answer was perfectly logical I did not know the Law which often confounds what seems to be the logical answer.

Then perhaps I should have used the word "discuss".  Apologies.  Don't sell yourself short...from what I've seen you post about this here, you really are more informed about it than most of the m.d.'s I've known.
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« Reply #221 on: July 01, 2013, 10:16:21 AM »

Until they come up with something better than statins, this is the protocol I must uphold for MI and Stroke patients. There is no "expanding horizons" on this particular issue.  How about you apply to medical school, study your behind for four years, go and practice, and then come back and say statins are bad for you.  If the research I gave isn't enough (one of which addressed the side effects issue) then I don't know what else to tell you.  Practically every medication has serious side effects, but for some people the benefits outweigh the risks.

Okay.  I tried.  Do what you think you must do, and may God bless your efforts!

I'm way too old, not well-enough educated, and probably too dumb to get into med. school.  Besides, I never, ever, not in my wildest imaginings wanted to become a "doctor".  Not my calling.

And yes, you CAN, if you will, expand your horizons on this particular issue as well as a whole host of others when it comes to treating people and their ailments.  You are limited only by yourself and your prejudices.  But...I've said my piece about this.  I'll let you and Marc (who is very well-informed about this--much more so than most of the many m.d.'s I've come across) and whomever else feels so inclined continue to argue about the details.  Enjoy.



I dont think we need to argue. I am very happy that there is a real MD helping to discuss this stuff. It helps me out since I am no scientist by a long shot and not knowing science well there can be connections that I dont understand.

For example when my  wife studied for the Bar many many years ago, I helped her and quizzed her. Sometime she would ask me what I thought the answer was. I was often wrong. She explained to me that while my answer was perfectly logical I did not know the Law which often confounds what seems to be the logical answer.

Then perhaps I should have used the word "discuss".  Apologies.  Don't sell yourself short...from what I've seen you post about this here, you really are more informed about it than most of the m.d.'s I've known.

Go to hell

Wait... What Huh

oh okay......thanks
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« Reply #222 on: July 01, 2013, 10:27:01 AM »

Until they come up with something better than statins, this is the protocol I must uphold for MI and Stroke patients. There is no "expanding horizons" on this particular issue.  How about you apply to medical school, study your behind for four years, go and practice, and then come back and say statins are bad for you.  If the research I gave isn't enough (one of which addressed the side effects issue) then I don't know what else to tell you.  Practically every medication has serious side effects, but for some people the benefits outweigh the risks.

Okay.  I tried.  Do what you think you must do, and may God bless your efforts!

I'm way too old, not well-enough educated, and probably too dumb to get into med. school.  Besides, I never, ever, not in my wildest imaginings wanted to become a "doctor".  Not my calling.

And yes, you CAN, if you will, expand your horizons on this particular issue as well as a whole host of others when it comes to treating people and their ailments.  You are limited only by yourself and your prejudices.  But...I've said my piece about this.  I'll let you and Marc (who is very well-informed about this--much more so than most of the many m.d.'s I've come across) and whomever else feels so inclined continue to argue about the details.  Enjoy.



I dont think we need to argue. I am very happy that there is a real MD helping to discuss this stuff. It helps me out since I am no scientist by a long shot and not knowing science well there can be connections that I dont understand.

For example when my  wife studied for the Bar many many years ago, I helped her and quizzed her. Sometime she would ask me what I thought the answer was. I was often wrong. She explained to me that while my answer was perfectly logical I did not know the Law which often confounds what seems to be the logical answer.

Then perhaps I should have used the word "discuss".  Apologies.  Don't sell yourself short...from what I've seen you post about this here, you really are more informed about it than most of the m.d.'s I've known.

Go to hell

Wait... What Huh

oh okay......thanks

I know....hard to believe, ain't it  Grin?

Credit where credit's due.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 10:32:17 AM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #223 on: July 02, 2013, 08:30:56 PM »

This clearly shows that there is no correlation at all between high cholesterol and heart disease.. So remind me why we are told to take statins ??

Only 3 minutes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8SSCNaaDcE
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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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« Reply #224 on: July 02, 2013, 09:05:25 PM »

How about an UpToDate article...UpToDate is literally the Bible of practicing Physicians.  If you want to convince a Physician you know better than him/her, quote something from UpToDate.

http://www.uptodate.com/contents/cholesterol-lowering-after-an-acute-coronary-syndrome

Quote
All patients with an acute coronary syndrome (ACS), including ST elevation (Q wave) myocardial infarction (STEMI), non-ST elevation (non-Q wave) myocardial infarction (NSTEMI), or unstable angina (UA), should receive long-term lipid-lowering therapy with a statin [1-3]. This recommendation is largely derived from multiple secondary prevention trials that demonstrated a benefit from statin therapy in patients who had had an ACS.

This topic will discuss when to initiate statin therapy, how to manage patients already on statin, the choice of statin, and how to manage patients with a low baseline low-density lipoprotein cholesterol. General treatment guidelines for hypercholesterolemia are discussed separately.

So it's clear enough when it comes to MI, it's imperative upon a physician to begin statin therapy.  You may refuse if you like.  But this is the recommendation.  I'm not trying to be stubborn upon research or refusing to expand my horizons.  In fact, I'm very concerned with the way people misuse research.

In any case, here's the UpToDate on Stroke and Statins:

http://www.uptodate.com/contents/initial-assessment-and-management-of-acute-stroke?detectedLanguage=en&source=search_result&search=statins+and+acute+stroke&selectedTitle=1%7E150&provider=noProvider#H10064197

Quote
A separate issue involves patients on statin therapy at the time of acute stroke. This issue was directly addressed in a single-center randomized controlled trial of 89 patients who were already treated with a statin and were assigned to continuation or cessation of statin therapy in the acute phase of ischemic stroke [77]. The rate of death or dependency at three months was significantly lower with continuation of statin treatment (39 versus 60 percent). The largest observational study, which evaluated over 12,000 subjects hospitalized with ischemic stroke, found that statin use before and during hospitalization was associated with improved outcome at hospital discharge and with improved survival at one year [78,79]. Furthermore, initiation of statin treatment early in hospitalization was associated with improved survival, while statin discontinuation early in hospitalization, even for a short period, was associated with decreased survival. Likewise, another uncontrolled study of 448 patients reported that new or continued statin treatment in the first 72 hours after acute ischemic stroke was associated with improved early and late (one-year) survival [80].

Based upon limited information, we suggest continuing statin treatment for patients receiving statin therapy prior to ischemic stroke onset. This suggestion is in accord with current guidelines [2].

An observational study of 2072 patients who received intravenous thrombolysis for acute ischemic stroke found that statin treatment started within 72 hours of thrombolysis was associated with a favorable functional outcome and a reduced risk of death at three months [81]. Of the 839 patients treated with statins, 65 percent were statin naïve. However, baseline differences in risk factors between the statin and no statin groups may have had a negative impact on the latter group. Therefore, data from randomized controlled trials are needed to determine whether initiating statin therapy de novo in patients with acute ischemic stroke is beneficial.

In other words, while it is imperative for physicians to also prescribe statins for acute stroke (which means there's enough research to suggest prescribing it with confidence), there is limited research on the benefits of statins for strokes, and there needs to be a follow up on more research.  So, I'll give you that.  But case of the MI is overwhelming.

Anyways...I said my peace with UpToDate.  This thread was about obesity anyway.  So, this will be my last post on the benefits of statins.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 09:11:23 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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