Author Topic: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease  (Read 13695 times)

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Offline Marc1152

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #135 on: June 24, 2013, 10:48:40 PM »
I'm screwed no matter what I do.  Most men in my family have heart disease on both sides.  A few developed diabetes and those who did live long enough developed cancer.  So, enjoy life as best as you can, just don't be a slob about it.

Over the years I have seen study after study contradict each other.  One can only do what one thinks is best and live with those choices.  It's obvious no one really ever knows what they are talking about.

The Science is becoming clearer and clearer. What sends mixed messages are outfits like the American Heart Association who got it wrong.
It's very difficult for these people to say" We have been giving the wrong advice for over 40 years. We may have killed some of your loved ones. But we now think we have it right so please trust us"

And the drug companies want to keep the multi billion dollar scam going as long as they can. So they publish paper thin studies meant to confuse people.

What if it's all been a big fat lie?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nQuB9pcptk0
I don't worry for myself, but for my wife.  She is diabetic and it seems to be progressivly getting worse. Jim already pretty certain what natural cause will kill me and at about what age.

Watch this about diabetes...Please

http://www.dietdoctor.com/how-to-cure-type-2-diabetes-2
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Opus118

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #136 on: June 25, 2013, 12:17:32 AM »
Some of the people in this thread need to have a bit more sympathy and empathy than saying "they're just being lazy f****".  You're bunch of a******* for thinking this way.

For once, more and more research are finding out things about obesity that makes us a bit more open to treating it in more drastic measures than just "diet and exercise".  And yes...there is such a thing as "skinny fat".  High cholesterol and heart attacks do not just occur in obese people.  Yes, obesity is a risk factor, but not the sole issue.  If one was to choose between a high fat diet and a high carb diet, choose the former.  It is recommended to stay away from 1% and skim milk because those are the ones that actually make you fat quicker, whereas the higher fat content makes it a bit more difficult for the body to absord the lactase.

Anyways, you have to consider also the fact that obesity is a crazy spiral that is difficult to fight.  The fatter you get, the hungrier you become, the more inactive you'll become.  Will power and crazy amounts of hormones make it quite a burden to fight.

Think of homosexuality.  We have become much more careful and sensitive in their situation while showing that we cannot accept their lifestyle as "non-sinful".  You do not know what they go through, and so we feel quite inclined to be sympathetic.  Why exactly do you feel the need to throw mud on obese people.  Everyone has different genes, different environments, different situations.  Don't be a jackass and judge people like that.

Minasoliman, I would like a link to a paper on skinny fat, I have never heard of it, and the equivalency of skinny with fat makes little sense.

My personal issue in these threads has nothing to do with combating weight (which is worthwhile), but more to do with the notion of whether extending ones life 3-5 years on average is worthwhile. My fear is that we worry so much about when we die, that we miss the point of living.

Extending one's life 3-5 years????  How about full healthy worthwhile life until almost a hundred, that is if you don't get cancer for some genetic reason.

The medical terminology is "metabolically obese, but normal weight" or "MONW":

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=monw

MONW is when you have someone who is skinny but eats unhealthily, and is still prone to the same problems an obese person is.  So, yes, eating healthy is in fact one of the good points of living.  Obesity and skinny fat is no way of living.  If you want to "live life" by eating crap, be my guest.  Makes you no different than cigarette smokers and alcoholics, who also "live life" for their own fleshly desires.



And dude, if you wanted to bow out of the convo...you didn't have to say anything in the first place.  Perhaps a simple asking or clarification of my statement would suffice.  Rather than understand that the context of my statement was in response to what seemed to me an ignorant reply of how to "live life" and "extending 3-5 years", statements that clearly showed no sense in the context of this convo of healthy eating and the obesity/monw epidemic.

Oh well.

Minasoliman, are you in a bad mood. The "ignorant reply" statement was overdoing it. I am not knowledgeable about a lot of things but the destructive effects of dieting is not one of them. You need to get married to a dieter that is an extremist and switches from one diet to another.

I read two reviews and a number of research papers (mostly skimming for these) on NOMW. I did accidentally read the Choi et al paper cited above. I am pretty sure low carb dieters would not consider 60% calories from carbs as low carb. The issue of being overweight and not obese is also an issue.

We can debate about this, there are not that many papers to cover (my guess would be ~40), but I think it is beside the point.

I never promoted a diet of junk food. It is certainly not part of my lifestyle. I was promoting the idea that it is OK to have carbs with your meal, a hamburger on occasion and pizza (which can be quite nutritious).

If a worthwhile life until 100 necessitates distractions from what you believe is worthwhile (and I am not talking about what you eat), then I am out. Sixty-five is good enough.

For your information, I probably purchase prepared meals once a month. I cook everything from scratch. I always have fresh vegetables, fruit, a starch and a protein (mostly chicken and pork, beef is too expensive these days). I make my own pizza when I have it, I make my own broths for cooking, etc. I spend a couple of hours in the grocery store on the weekend doing mental algebra in conjuction with manufacturer coupons.

Somewhere up above I hopefully mentioned the notion that activity is important. I am fidgety. I read standing up while pacing, I write standing up. The only time I sit much is like  now when I am typing these posts. I have one meal a day (a big one) usually between 7:30-8:30 pm (depending on when I get home) with red wine. Breakfast is coffee and cigarettes. Lunch is water throughout the day.
"Mi tío es enfermo, pero la carretera es verde!" - old Chilean saying

Offline Shiny

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #137 on: June 25, 2013, 08:37:06 AM »
Prevention > Cure.

The way to stop the obesity epidemic in the the first world is to realize that it can't be a matter of will.

Otherwise why isn't all the relatively wealthy world obese?

The same genes are in Europe as are in many here in America. Why is obesity arriving later to Europe and not hitting every nation to the same degree?

The fight against obesity means as a society we treat public health as a public good. This would include a complex system of including into harmful foods the long term price upfront. This usually means a tax or rather nowadays the closing of a tax loophole to stop enormous amounts of horrible food to be so cheaply purchased.

It would also mean looking at the main driver of overeating: stress.

So we would need to engineering more sane delivery of health care, more just economic living conditions, etc. See, European countries that do this, are not obese like Americans.

Every European who comes to the States for their stint where I work, puts on about 15-20 pounds.

Every American loses as much when they go to Europe.

Did their willpower change?

No.

The best way to change yourself is to change your environment.

And guess what fatties and the like, I can gain and drop weight whenever I want. So this isn't someone who doesn't understand physical discipline. This is someone who has watched too many people fail who wanted to lose weight after exerting lotsa "will".

Life doesn't need to be a battleground. So why not alter it?
What I like most about this post is that it completely avoids any sort of moralism on this issue.
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #138 on: June 25, 2013, 12:40:51 PM »


Long stretches of human evolution took place during the Ice Age when there was very little plant food to be had. Humans ate animal foods almost exclusively. It enabled our brains to develop and had other advantageous effects.


No.

No.

and No.

This is most certainly not proven by the anthropological record.  Indeed, quite the opposite.  I defy you to find any peer reviewed anthropology paper/article/book that even hints at such a thing. 

I turn an often amused but not offended blind eye to your ramblings on nutrition, but I cannot and will not sit idly by while you misrepresent the archaelogical and anthropological record re: the diet of ancient man. 

Note, articles by those selling a diet or "paleo-lifestyle" are not admissible.  I want something written by an actual anthropologist, not a medical doctor, nutritionist, or the like.
You guys obviously know more about this than I do, but wouldn't all that work together?

I am not sure to whom I am responding to . Is it Shultz?

Which part do you doubt so I can find an exact answer for you. Do you doubt there was an Ice Age? Do you doubt that there was far less plant life during the deep freeze? Do you doubt that humans evolved over long stretches of the Ice Age? Do you doubt that they ate a flesh based diet and then had to switch to more plants when things warmed up and the mega fauna became scarce ( due to over hunting) .?.

Let me know exactly what it is you doubt so much and I will try to find some references.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Marc1152

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #139 on: June 25, 2013, 02:14:15 PM »
Here you go.. This study measures the large amounts of meat and fish that early humans ate.. This method only tests for protein.

I will look for more as I have time..

http://www.pnas.org/content/106/38/16034.full?sid=66b62715-3543-4946-93d5-8795128da153

Isotopic evidence for the diets of European Neanderthals and early modern humans
Michael P. Richardsa,b,1 and Erik Trinkausc
 Author Affiliations

aDepartment of Human Evolution, Max-Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany; bDepartment of Anthropology, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, British Columbia V6T 1Z1, Canada; and cDepartment of Anthropology, Campus Box 1114, Washington University, St. Louis, MO 63130
Edited by Richard G. Klein, Stanford University, Stanford, CA, and approved June 23, 2009 (received for review April 7, 2009)

Abstract
We report here on the direct isotopic evidence for Neanderthal and early modern human diets in Europe. Isotopic methods indicate the sources of dietary protein over many years of life, and show that Neanderthals had a similar diet through time (≈120,000 to ≈37,000 cal BP) and in different regions of Europe. The isotopic evidence indicates that in all cases Neanderthals were top-level carnivores and obtained all, or most, of their dietary protein from large herbivores. In contrast, early modern humans (≈40,000 to ≈27,000 cal BP) exhibited a wider range of isotopic values, and a number of individuals had evidence for the consumption of aquatic (marine and freshwater) resources. This pattern includes Oase 1, the oldest directly dated modern human in Europe (≈40,000 cal BP) with the highest nitrogen isotope value of all of the humans studied, likely because of freshwater fish consumption. As Oase 1 was close in time to the last Neanderthals, these data may indicate a significant dietary shift associated with the changing population dynamics of modern human emergence in Europe
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 02:14:55 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Marc1152

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #140 on: June 25, 2013, 03:37:11 PM »
And here is a scholary study that looked into the Mega Fauna extinctions at the end of the Ice Age ( it was complicated:)

Unraveling the causes of the Ice Age megafauna extinctions

DNA ResearchWas it humans or climate change that caused the extinctions of the iconic Ice Age mammals (megafauna) such as the woolly rhinoceros and woolly mammoth? For decades, scientists have been debating the reasons behind these enigmatic Ice Age mass extinctions, which caused the loss of a third of the large mammal species in Eurasia and two thirds of the species in North America.

Now an extensive, inter-disciplinary research team, involving over 40 academic institutions around the world and led by Professor Eske Willerslev’s Centre for GeoGenetics at the Natural History Museum, University of Copenhagen, have tried to tackle the contentious question in the biggest study of its kind. And the answers are far more complicated than ever imagined.

http://geogenetics.ku.dk/latest-news/megafauna/
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline minasoliman

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #141 on: June 25, 2013, 03:56:38 PM »
Minasoliman, are you in a bad mood. The "ignorant reply" statement was overdoing it. I am not knowledgeable about a lot of things but the destructive effects of dieting is not one of them. You need to get married to a dieter that is an extremist and switches from one diet to another.

I read two reviews and a number of research papers (mostly skimming for these) on NOMW. I did accidentally read the Choi et al paper cited above. I am pretty sure low carb dieters would not consider 60% calories from carbs as low carb. The issue of being overweight and not obese is also an issue.

We can debate about this, there are not that many papers to cover (my guess would be ~40), but I think it is beside the point.

I never promoted a diet of junk food. It is certainly not part of my lifestyle. I was promoting the idea that it is OK to have carbs with your meal, a hamburger on occasion and pizza (which can be quite nutritious).

If a worthwhile life until 100 necessitates distractions from what you believe is worthwhile (and I am not talking about what you eat), then I am out. Sixty-five is good enough.

For your information, I probably purchase prepared meals once a month. I cook everything from scratch. I always have fresh vegetables, fruit, a starch and a protein (mostly chicken and pork, beef is too expensive these days). I make my own pizza when I have it, I make my own broths for cooking, etc. I spend a couple of hours in the grocery store on the weekend doing mental algebra in conjuction with manufacturer coupons.

Somewhere up above I hopefully mentioned the notion that activity is important. I am fidgety. I read standing up while pacing, I write standing up. The only time I sit much is like  now when I am typing these posts. I have one meal a day (a big one) usually between 7:30-8:30 pm (depending on when I get home) with red wine. Breakfast is coffee and cigarettes. Lunch is water throughout the day.

Yes, in a bad mood because when I started writing my first post in this thread, already people were coming out bad-mouthing obese people and making it seem like they were lazy people who are not doing enough for themselves to lose weight.  Then Orthonorm comes in and says I was overgeneralizing and criticizes me for God knows what...since I can never really make out what he is trying to argue in this website anyway half the time.  So yes...I'm in a bad mood because of the ignorance presented here.  I hope you're not one of these people.

I've seen people who are 80 that look like they're 60.  It's possible to live a loooong worthwhile life.  Today living until 65 is "short" by the standards of the advanced healthcare we have today, which makes 65 still a "livable" age.

For this post...I do not know where to begin...but there are some issues with your eating habits.  You may think you're alright, but what you are doing to yourself (occasional hamburgers and pizza, one large meal a day, cigarettes in the morning) makes you prone to not live a worthwhile life after 50 maybe.  And red wine after meals has been recently debunked as a "healthy" lifestyle due to scientific fraudulent practices by fabricating results in research.  I'm not saying to stop drinking red wine, but you'll not benefit anything from it.

And I never said a "no-Carb" diet.  I said "low-carb" diet.  BIG difference.  Pizza=HIGH carb.  I would recommend pizza and burgers once a month (what does "occasional" mean to you), because it's nothing but junk.  Beef in the US is HIGH in fat and needs to be reduced (good for you on that one).  It's very difficult to find lean beef.  Chicken or Fish are the healthiest meats, and beef and steaks need to be reduced and not taken frequently.  The carbs you take also need to be chosen wisely.  It is recommended that MOST of your carbs should be whole wheat.

And cigarettes EVERY morning?  Need I explain that one?

Water for lunch+one large dinner=diabetes.  You need frequent small meals, not one large meal a day.

What do you mean by "fidgeting"? Do you do cardio?  Do you walk maybe at least 15 minutes a day?  I heard recommendations from 30-60 minutes.  Take some time in your day with your significant other to walk around the block together.  Standing up writing is not the same as actively walking around, avoiding elevators/escalators, parking very far away, etc.  If you go work to the city and there's plenty of options for public transportation and walking, do that.

That's the difference usually between a person that lives a fulfilling life to 80 and a diseased life to 60.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 04:00:37 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline theistgal

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #142 on: June 25, 2013, 06:52:39 PM »
As a "fattie", I would just like to say that I'm exiting this discussion.  ::)
"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)

Offline Marc1152

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #143 on: June 25, 2013, 06:59:51 PM »
Let me tweak this for you if you dont mind.

You can eat moderate carb diet and just not develop ketones. But the idea is to have your body burn ketones for energy rather than glucose. If you dont go low enough in your avoidance of carbs or if you eat pizza once per month your body will select for the glucose that carbs turn into and it will burn that for energy.

A ketonic diet has been shown to prevent and even cure cancer and diabetes and the pounds will easily drop away. Kinda sorta eating low carb may not be sufficient to get these enormous benefits.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Opus118

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #144 on: June 25, 2013, 11:13:58 PM »
As a "fattie", I would just like to say that I'm exiting this discussion.  ::)

I apologize if I contributed to this Theistgal. I miss you when you are gone and I am glad when you are around.
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Offline Opus118

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #145 on: June 26, 2013, 01:04:58 AM »
Minasoliman, are you in a bad mood. The "ignorant reply" statement was overdoing it. I am not knowledgeable about a lot of things but the destructive effects of dieting is not one of them. You need to get married to a dieter that is an extremist and switches from one diet to another.

I read two reviews and a number of research papers (mostly skimming for these) on NOMW. I did accidentally read the Choi et al paper cited above. I am pretty sure low carb dieters would not consider 60% calories from carbs as low carb. The issue of being overweight and not obese is also an issue.

We can debate about this, there are not that many papers to cover (my guess would be ~40), but I think it is beside the point.

I never promoted a diet of junk food. It is certainly not part of my lifestyle. I was promoting the idea that it is OK to have carbs with your meal, a hamburger on occasion and pizza (which can be quite nutritious).

If a worthwhile life until 100 necessitates distractions from what you believe is worthwhile (and I am not talking about what you eat), then I am out. Sixty-five is good enough.

For your information, I probably purchase prepared meals once a month. I cook everything from scratch. I always have fresh vegetables, fruit, a starch and a protein (mostly chicken and pork, beef is too expensive these days). I make my own pizza when I have it, I make my own broths for cooking, etc. I spend a couple of hours in the grocery store on the weekend doing mental algebra in conjuction with manufacturer coupons.

Somewhere up above I hopefully mentioned the notion that activity is important. I am fidgety. I read standing up while pacing, I write standing up. The only time I sit much is like  now when I am typing these posts. I have one meal a day (a big one) usually between 7:30-8:30 pm (depending on when I get home) with red wine. Breakfast is coffee and cigarettes. Lunch is water throughout the day.

Minasoliman, before I get into commenting on your post. This is the post that got me into this thread:
Exercise doesn't help with weight loss all that much. As you expend energy you get hungry. More exercise, more eating.

Just like when people used to take a walk before a big meal to "Work up an appetite".
Of course building muscle mass will help some but most results will come from eating properly not from working out.

This particular post irks me. It is totally anecdotal from a single source (you) and metabolically makes little sense.  You should elaborate. In doing so, include expressions like "I am too exhausted to eat". A feeling that often occurs to me.

I cannot comment much on this thread because I have never, ever, had a weight problem. I am right now the same weight as when I was a freshman in high school (about 130 and I have ranged between 125-140, the low end during lent). I never paid attention to carbs, fat, fast food, etc. Is it solely genetic? Doubtful. Is it genetic at all? My guess is that it would be a minor contributor at most. Is it lifestyle? I would guess that this is the major contributor. Does a low carb diet make sense. Yes, but it is clear to me that this was never the problem.

If you have comments, I will learn something from it. My notion here is that if there is a sudden rise in obesity, it is not genetics. This is more or less an Occam's razor analysis and I know well enough that this principle often fails in biological systems.


Quote
Yes, in a bad mood because when I started writing my first post in this thread, already people were coming out bad-mouthing obese people and making it seem like they were lazy people who are not doing enough for themselves to lose weight.  Then Orthonorm comes in and says I was overgeneralizing and criticizes me for God knows what...since I can never really make out what he is trying to argue in this website anyway half the time.  So yes...I'm in a bad mood because of the ignorance presented here.  I hope you're not one of these people.
This thread is totally depressing. I do not know if I am ignorant or not. Orthonorm is often cryptic. I usually just tell him I do not understand and he clarifies his statement.

Quote
I've seen people who are 80 that look like they're 60.  It's possible to live a loooong worthwhile life.  Today living until 65 is "short" by the standards of the advanced healthcare we have today, which makes 65 still a "livable" age.
No comment. I have some thoughts about this in terms of what is right, but I am still unsure about it.

Quote
For this post...I do not know where to begin...but there are some issues with your eating habits.  You may think you're alright, but what you are doing to yourself (occasional hamburgers and pizza, one large meal a day, cigarettes in the morning) makes you prone to not live a worthwhile life after 50 maybe.  And red wine after meals has been recently debunked as a "healthy" lifestyle due to scientific fraudulent practices by fabricating results in research.  I'm not saying to stop drinking red wine, but you'll not benefit anything from it.

My intention here was to describe myself and my eating habits and all of my faults. Red wine is because I do not care for white wine.

I do not know if it is alright. This is how I have been for the past 30  years or more or let me just say I stopped eating breakfast in 1971. I stopped eating lunch in 1982. The reason was that I was more productive and I thought more clearly. I have never met anyone with this particular eating habit.

Quote
And I never said a "no-Carb" diet.  I said "low-carb" diet.  BIG difference.  Pizza=HIGH carb.  I would recommend pizza and burgers once a month (what does "occasional" mean to you), because it's nothing but junk.  Beef in the US is HIGH in fat and needs to be reduced (good for you on that one).  It's very difficult to find lean beef.  Chicken or Fish are the healthiest meats, and beef and steaks need to be reduced and not taken frequently.  The carbs you take also need to be chosen wisely.  It is recommended that MOST of your carbs should be whole wheat.

Occasional means once every two months as far as going out to get food. You might object to what I cook in the interim. Pizza is not high carb, it is a balanced meal. It depends on what you bake.

If you lived my life you would not be allowed to eat whole wheat bread. As a consolation you could eat flour-less sprouted wheat bread.

Quote
And cigarettes EVERY morning?  Need I explain that one?
No, see above.

Quote
Water for lunch+one large dinner=diabetes.  You need frequent small meals, not one large meal a day.
This is the most interesting statement that you made. Explain a priori, or preferably a reference to my eating style.

Quote
What do you mean by "fidgeting"? Do you do cardio?  Do you walk maybe at least 15 minutes a day?  I heard recommendations from 30-60 minutes.  Take some time in your day with your significant other to walk around the block together.  Standing up writing is not the same as actively walking around, avoiding elevators/escalators, parking very far away, etc.  If you go work to the city and there's plenty of options for public transportation and walking, do that.

Fidgeting, means I have a difficult time staying in one place. I pace. I walk around when I write and type when I come up with the sentence to write. I read while pacing. I find it difficult sitting for two hours watching a movie. I go up and down stairs about 10 times a day. I do not work at a desk unless I am reviewing a paper or writing a paper (usually standing up). I work standing up. You can complain that I am not using all of my muscles. But why would this not be nitpicking? I would love to use public transportation. I have the stress of rush hour commutes, but public transportation here falls off considerably at 6:00 pm and taking a bus with three transfers through rush hour traffic for 30 miles takes about 2.5 hrs. I looked this up. If I could get done routinely by 6 pm I could take a train. But that is not the case.

Quote
That's the difference usually between a person that lives a fulfilling life to 80 and a diseased life to 60.

I am not supporting my lifestyle. But I have not had a diseased life. I have been blessed in that regard.

"Mi tío es enfermo, pero la carretera es verde!" - old Chilean saying

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #146 on: June 26, 2013, 09:14:53 AM »
Minasoliman, are you in a bad mood. The "ignorant reply" statement was overdoing it. I am not knowledgeable about a lot of things but the destructive effects of dieting is not one of them. You need to get married to a dieter that is an extremist and switches from one diet to another.

I read two reviews and a number of research papers (mostly skimming for these) on NOMW. I did accidentally read the Choi et al paper cited above. I am pretty sure low carb dieters would not consider 60% calories from carbs as low carb. The issue of being overweight and not obese is also an issue.

We can debate about this, there are not that many papers to cover (my guess would be ~40), but I think it is beside the point.

I never promoted a diet of junk food. It is certainly not part of my lifestyle. I was promoting the idea that it is OK to have carbs with your meal, a hamburger on occasion and pizza (which can be quite nutritious).

If a worthwhile life until 100 necessitates distractions from what you believe is worthwhile (and I am not talking about what you eat), then I am out. Sixty-five is good enough.

For your information, I probably purchase prepared meals once a month. I cook everything from scratch. I always have fresh vegetables, fruit, a starch and a protein (mostly chicken and pork, beef is too expensive these days). I make my own pizza when I have it, I make my own broths for cooking, etc. I spend a couple of hours in the grocery store on the weekend doing mental algebra in conjuction with manufacturer coupons.

Somewhere up above I hopefully mentioned the notion that activity is important. I am fidgety. I read standing up while pacing, I write standing up. The only time I sit much is like  now when I am typing these posts. I have one meal a day (a big one) usually between 7:30-8:30 pm (depending on when I get home) with red wine. Breakfast is coffee and cigarettes. Lunch is water throughout the day.

That's the difference usually between a person that lives a fulfilling life to 80 and a diseased life to 60.


 ??? ???

Could you clarify that, please?  It does seem like somewhat of an over-generalization.  Thank you!
"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Marc1152

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #147 on: June 26, 2013, 10:41:13 AM »
Minasoliman, are you in a bad mood. The "ignorant reply" statement was overdoing it. I am not knowledgeable about a lot of things but the destructive effects of dieting is not one of them. You need to get married to a dieter that is an extremist and switches from one diet to another.

I read two reviews and a number of research papers (mostly skimming for these) on NOMW. I did accidentally read the Choi et al paper cited above. I am pretty sure low carb dieters would not consider 60% calories from carbs as low carb. The issue of being overweight and not obese is also an issue.

We can debate about this, there are not that many papers to cover (my guess would be ~40), but I think it is beside the point.

I never promoted a diet of junk food. It is certainly not part of my lifestyle. I was promoting the idea that it is OK to have carbs with your meal, a hamburger on occasion and pizza (which can be quite nutritious).

If a worthwhile life until 100 necessitates distractions from what you believe is worthwhile (and I am not talking about what you eat), then I am out. Sixty-five is good enough.

For your information, I probably purchase prepared meals once a month. I cook everything from scratch. I always have fresh vegetables, fruit, a starch and a protein (mostly chicken and pork, beef is too expensive these days). I make my own pizza when I have it, I make my own broths for cooking, etc. I spend a couple of hours in the grocery store on the weekend doing mental algebra in conjuction with manufacturer coupons.

Somewhere up above I hopefully mentioned the notion that activity is important. I am fidgety. I read standing up while pacing, I write standing up. The only time I sit much is like  now when I am typing these posts. I have one meal a day (a big one) usually between 7:30-8:30 pm (depending on when I get home) with red wine. Breakfast is coffee and cigarettes. Lunch is water throughout the day.

That's the difference usually between a person that lives a fulfilling life to 80 and a diseased life to 60.


 ??? ???

Could you clarify that, please?  It does seem like somewhat of an over-generalization.  Thank you!

And lets not forgot a diseased /debilitated life till age 104...

Welcome to 2013.. They can save people from dying so mortality rates have dropped but more and more people come out debilitated and frail. Morbidity rates have increased ( rate of Disability).

 Over 70% of people age 65 will eventually need to be cared for because they will be too sick or weak to get through a normal day.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline vamrat

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #148 on: June 26, 2013, 11:22:49 AM »
Minasoliman, are you in a bad mood. The "ignorant reply" statement was overdoing it. I am not knowledgeable about a lot of things but the destructive effects of dieting is not one of them. You need to get married to a dieter that is an extremist and switches from one diet to another.

I read two reviews and a number of research papers (mostly skimming for these) on NOMW. I did accidentally read the Choi et al paper cited above. I am pretty sure low carb dieters would not consider 60% calories from carbs as low carb. The issue of being overweight and not obese is also an issue.

We can debate about this, there are not that many papers to cover (my guess would be ~40), but I think it is beside the point.

I never promoted a diet of junk food. It is certainly not part of my lifestyle. I was promoting the idea that it is OK to have carbs with your meal, a hamburger on occasion and pizza (which can be quite nutritious).

If a worthwhile life until 100 necessitates distractions from what you believe is worthwhile (and I am not talking about what you eat), then I am out. Sixty-five is good enough.

For your information, I probably purchase prepared meals once a month. I cook everything from scratch. I always have fresh vegetables, fruit, a starch and a protein (mostly chicken and pork, beef is too expensive these days). I make my own pizza when I have it, I make my own broths for cooking, etc. I spend a couple of hours in the grocery store on the weekend doing mental algebra in conjuction with manufacturer coupons.

Somewhere up above I hopefully mentioned the notion that activity is important. I am fidgety. I read standing up while pacing, I write standing up. The only time I sit much is like  now when I am typing these posts. I have one meal a day (a big one) usually between 7:30-8:30 pm (depending on when I get home) with red wine. Breakfast is coffee and cigarettes. Lunch is water throughout the day.

That's the difference usually between a person that lives a fulfilling life to 80 and a diseased life to 60.


 ??? ???

Could you clarify that, please?  It does seem like somewhat of an over-generalization.  Thank you!

And lets not forgot a diseased /debilitated life till age 104...

Welcome to 2013.. They can save people from dying so mortality rates have dropped but more and more people come out debilitated and frail. Morbidity rates have increased ( rate of Disability).

 Over 70% of people age 65 will eventually need to be cared for because they will be too sick or weak to get through a normal day.

A blogger I like to read is a proponent of what he calls "the Smith & Wesson retirement plan".  It seems to me that if one were to stop going to the doctor, not get on thousands of dollars of prescriptions, and just chillax at home that things would take their natural course and we would see morbidity rates plummet. 
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline J Michael

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #149 on: June 26, 2013, 11:40:24 AM »
Minasoliman, are you in a bad mood. The "ignorant reply" statement was overdoing it. I am not knowledgeable about a lot of things but the destructive effects of dieting is not one of them. You need to get married to a dieter that is an extremist and switches from one diet to another.

I read two reviews and a number of research papers (mostly skimming for these) on NOMW. I did accidentally read the Choi et al paper cited above. I am pretty sure low carb dieters would not consider 60% calories from carbs as low carb. The issue of being overweight and not obese is also an issue.

We can debate about this, there are not that many papers to cover (my guess would be ~40), but I think it is beside the point.

I never promoted a diet of junk food. It is certainly not part of my lifestyle. I was promoting the idea that it is OK to have carbs with your meal, a hamburger on occasion and pizza (which can be quite nutritious).

If a worthwhile life until 100 necessitates distractions from what you believe is worthwhile (and I am not talking about what you eat), then I am out. Sixty-five is good enough.

For your information, I probably purchase prepared meals once a month. I cook everything from scratch. I always have fresh vegetables, fruit, a starch and a protein (mostly chicken and pork, beef is too expensive these days). I make my own pizza when I have it, I make my own broths for cooking, etc. I spend a couple of hours in the grocery store on the weekend doing mental algebra in conjuction with manufacturer coupons.

Somewhere up above I hopefully mentioned the notion that activity is important. I am fidgety. I read standing up while pacing, I write standing up. The only time I sit much is like  now when I am typing these posts. I have one meal a day (a big one) usually between 7:30-8:30 pm (depending on when I get home) with red wine. Breakfast is coffee and cigarettes. Lunch is water throughout the day.

That's the difference usually between a person that lives a fulfilling life to 80 and a diseased life to 60.


 ??? ???

Could you clarify that, please?  It does seem like somewhat of an over-generalization.  Thank you!

And lets not forgot a diseased /debilitated life till age 104...

Welcome to 2013.. They can save people from dying so mortality rates have dropped but more and more people come out debilitated and frail. Morbidity rates have increased ( rate of Disability).

 Over 70% of people age 65 will eventually need to be cared for because they will be too sick or weak to get through a normal day.

A blogger I like to read is a proponent of what he calls "the Smith & Wesson retirement plan".  It seems to me that if one were to stop going to the doctor, not get on thousands of dollars of prescriptions, and just chillax at home that things would take their natural course and we would see morbidity rates plummet. 

Some people already opt for that, although not necessarily with your buddies Smith and Wesson participating.
"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline J Michael

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #150 on: June 26, 2013, 11:41:39 AM »
Minasoliman, are you in a bad mood. The "ignorant reply" statement was overdoing it. I am not knowledgeable about a lot of things but the destructive effects of dieting is not one of them. You need to get married to a dieter that is an extremist and switches from one diet to another.

I read two reviews and a number of research papers (mostly skimming for these) on NOMW. I did accidentally read the Choi et al paper cited above. I am pretty sure low carb dieters would not consider 60% calories from carbs as low carb. The issue of being overweight and not obese is also an issue.

We can debate about this, there are not that many papers to cover (my guess would be ~40), but I think it is beside the point.

I never promoted a diet of junk food. It is certainly not part of my lifestyle. I was promoting the idea that it is OK to have carbs with your meal, a hamburger on occasion and pizza (which can be quite nutritious).

If a worthwhile life until 100 necessitates distractions from what you believe is worthwhile (and I am not talking about what you eat), then I am out. Sixty-five is good enough.

For your information, I probably purchase prepared meals once a month. I cook everything from scratch. I always have fresh vegetables, fruit, a starch and a protein (mostly chicken and pork, beef is too expensive these days). I make my own pizza when I have it, I make my own broths for cooking, etc. I spend a couple of hours in the grocery store on the weekend doing mental algebra in conjuction with manufacturer coupons.

Somewhere up above I hopefully mentioned the notion that activity is important. I am fidgety. I read standing up while pacing, I write standing up. The only time I sit much is like  now when I am typing these posts. I have one meal a day (a big one) usually between 7:30-8:30 pm (depending on when I get home) with red wine. Breakfast is coffee and cigarettes. Lunch is water throughout the day.

That's the difference usually between a person that lives a fulfilling life to 80 and a diseased life to 60.


 ??? ???

Could you clarify that, please?  It does seem like somewhat of an over-generalization.  Thank you!

And lets not forgot a diseased /debilitated life till age 104...

Welcome to 2013.. They can save people from dying so mortality rates have dropped but more and more people come out debilitated and frail. Morbidity rates have increased ( rate of Disability).

 Over 70% of people age 65 will eventually need to be cared for because they will be too sick or weak to get through a normal day.

Makes me ever so glad I'm not 65.
"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Marc1152

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #151 on: June 26, 2013, 06:33:25 PM »
Before this thread goes away here is a really fine statement about Obesity from Dr. Peter Attia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMhLBPPtlrY
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline minasoliman

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #152 on: June 26, 2013, 09:25:16 PM »
Quote
If you have comments, I will learn something from it. My notion here is that if there is a sudden rise in obesity, it is not genetics. This is more or less an Occam's razor analysis and I know well enough that this principle often fails in biological systems.

Indeed it does fail, but not a bad tool to use nevertheless.  If there are obese people that are not developing diabetes or high cholesterol and thin people that are, then we have to concede that there seems to be a genetic susceptibility to getting fat easily.  We can find these two groups of people with same eating habits, same level of activity, and in fact same morbidity risks, but different body reactions to the foods we eat.  Thus, these different reactions point to genetics.

Quote
My intention here was to describe myself and my eating habits and all of my faults. Red wine is because I do not care for white wine.

I do not know if it is alright. This is how I have been for the past 30  years or more or let me just say I stopped eating breakfast in 1971. I stopped eating lunch in 1982. The reason was that I was more productive and I thought more clearly. I have never met anyone with this particular eating habit.

...

This is the most interesting statement that you made. Explain a priori, or preferably a reference to my eating style.

It's a dangerous thing to allow your body to have one major meal a day.  In essence you are bombarding your body with more than it can handle.  It's like rather than walking back and forth to your car to pick up the bags of groceries little by little, you pick up all the bags of groceries all at once, and then try closing the trunk, opening the door, and walking up the stairs all while suffering picking up the bags.  Some things will eventually fall off the floor.  Other times, you may trip.

Your body when bombarded with one meal will cause a SURGE of insulin pounding on every cell of your body.  Eventually, your cells will be like "I can't take this anymore, I refuse to effected by all this insulin I'm being hit by."  And thus you develop insulin resistance.  Frequent small meals is the healthy way to go, and the more frequent the better.

Quote
Occasional means once every two months as far as going out to get food. You might object to what I cook in the interim. Pizza is not high carb, it is a balanced meal. It depends on what you bake.

If you lived my life you would not be allowed to eat whole wheat bread. As a consolation you could eat flour-less sprouted wheat bread.

You have gluten issues?  Do you have some sort of sprue?

A pizza from what I understand by conventional wisdom is high carbs and high fat (cheese and bread, literally, with some tomato sauce).  That's not "nutritious".  You need high protein, low carb, low fat.  I would treat pizza like I would alcohol.  Needs to be taken on occasion.

Quote
Fidgeting, means I have a difficult time staying in one place. I pace. I walk around when I write and type when I come up with the sentence to write. I read while pacing. I find it difficult sitting for two hours watching a movie. I go up and down stairs about 10 times a day. I do not work at a desk unless I am reviewing a paper or writing a paper (usually standing up). I work standing up. You can complain that I am not using all of my muscles. But why would this not be nitpicking? I would love to use public transportation. I have the stress of rush hour commutes, but public transportation here falls off considerably at 6:00 pm and taking a bus with three transfers through rush hour traffic for 30 miles takes about 2.5 hrs. I looked this up. If I could get done routinely by 6 pm I could take a train. But that is not the case.

The idea is any doctor wants your heart to race a bit each day.  Doing some mild exercising in the beginning like a power walk may help, or walking up and down the stairs.  Or taking a walk with a significant other.  It's not your skeletal muscles necessarily that needs the workout.  It's your heart and blood vessels.  Skeletal muscles are a nice secondary effect, which are the same organs that could also aid in sugar control when needed.

Quote
I am not supporting my lifestyle. But I have not had a diseased life. I have been blessed in that regard.

That's great.  BUT, your lifestyle carries risks.  It accumulates on you day after day, until you become symptomatic.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #153 on: June 26, 2013, 09:28:36 PM »
Minasoliman, are you in a bad mood. The "ignorant reply" statement was overdoing it. I am not knowledgeable about a lot of things but the destructive effects of dieting is not one of them. You need to get married to a dieter that is an extremist and switches from one diet to another.

I read two reviews and a number of research papers (mostly skimming for these) on NOMW. I did accidentally read the Choi et al paper cited above. I am pretty sure low carb dieters would not consider 60% calories from carbs as low carb. The issue of being overweight and not obese is also an issue.

We can debate about this, there are not that many papers to cover (my guess would be ~40), but I think it is beside the point.

I never promoted a diet of junk food. It is certainly not part of my lifestyle. I was promoting the idea that it is OK to have carbs with your meal, a hamburger on occasion and pizza (which can be quite nutritious).

If a worthwhile life until 100 necessitates distractions from what you believe is worthwhile (and I am not talking about what you eat), then I am out. Sixty-five is good enough.

For your information, I probably purchase prepared meals once a month. I cook everything from scratch. I always have fresh vegetables, fruit, a starch and a protein (mostly chicken and pork, beef is too expensive these days). I make my own pizza when I have it, I make my own broths for cooking, etc. I spend a couple of hours in the grocery store on the weekend doing mental algebra in conjuction with manufacturer coupons.

Somewhere up above I hopefully mentioned the notion that activity is important. I am fidgety. I read standing up while pacing, I write standing up. The only time I sit much is like  now when I am typing these posts. I have one meal a day (a big one) usually between 7:30-8:30 pm (depending on when I get home) with red wine. Breakfast is coffee and cigarettes. Lunch is water throughout the day.

That's the difference usually between a person that lives a fulfilling life to 80 and a diseased life to 60.


 ??? ???

Could you clarify that, please?  It does seem like somewhat of an over-generalization.  Thank you!

I'm not over-generalizing.  One large meal a day for instance is a recipe for eventual disaster.  A cigarette each morning is also not healthy.  Unless you're part of the 0.001% of the genetically evolved few that we have yet to discover that can live a healthy lifestyle while smoking and eating one large meal a day. (do you feel lucky? do ya?)

If my provocative statements are scaring you, GOOD!
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 09:34:04 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #154 on: June 26, 2013, 09:46:28 PM »
Quote
If you have comments, I will learn something from it. My notion here is that if there is a sudden rise in obesity, it is not genetics. This is more or less an Occam's razor analysis and I know well enough that this principle often fails in biological systems.

Indeed it does fail, but not a bad tool to use nevertheless.  If there are obese people that are not developing diabetes or high cholesterol and thin people that are, then we have to concede that there seems to be a genetic susceptibility to getting fat easily.  We can find these two groups of people with same eating habits, same level of activity, and in fact same morbidity risks, but different body reactions to the foods we eat.  Thus, these different reactions point to genetics.

Quote
My intention here was to describe myself and my eating habits and all of my faults. Red wine is because I do not care for white wine.

I do not know if it is alright. This is how I have been for the past 30  years or more or let me just say I stopped eating breakfast in 1971. I stopped eating lunch in 1982. The reason was that I was more productive and I thought more clearly. I have never met anyone with this particular eating habit.

...

This is the most interesting statement that you made. Explain a priori, or preferably a reference to my eating style.

It's a dangerous thing to allow your body to have one major meal a day.  In essence you are bombarding your body with more than it can handle.  It's like rather than walking back and forth to your car to pick up the bags of groceries little by little, you pick up all the bags of groceries all at once, and then try closing the trunk, opening the door, and walking up the stairs all while suffering picking up the bags.  Some things will eventually fall off the floor.  Other times, you may trip.

Your body when bombarded with one meal will cause a SURGE of insulin pounding on every cell of your body.  Eventually, your cells will be like "I can't take this anymore, I refuse to effected by all this insulin I'm being hit by."  And thus you develop insulin resistance.  Frequent small meals is the healthy way to go, and the more frequent the better.

Quote
Occasional means once every two months as far as going out to get food. You might object to what I cook in the interim. Pizza is not high carb, it is a balanced meal. It depends on what you bake.

If you lived my life you would not be allowed to eat whole wheat bread. As a consolation you could eat flour-less sprouted wheat bread.

You have gluten issues?  Do you have some sort of sprue?

A pizza from what I understand by conventional wisdom is high carbs and high fat (cheese and bread, literally, with some tomato sauce).  That's not "nutritious".  You need high protein, low carb, low fat.  I would treat pizza like I would alcohol.  Needs to be taken on occasion.

Quote
Fidgeting, means I have a difficult time staying in one place. I pace. I walk around when I write and type when I come up with the sentence to write. I read while pacing. I find it difficult sitting for two hours watching a movie. I go up and down stairs about 10 times a day. I do not work at a desk unless I am reviewing a paper or writing a paper (usually standing up). I work standing up. You can complain that I am not using all of my muscles. But why would this not be nitpicking? I would love to use public transportation. I have the stress of rush hour commutes, but public transportation here falls off considerably at 6:00 pm and taking a bus with three transfers through rush hour traffic for 30 miles takes about 2.5 hrs. I looked this up. If I could get done routinely by 6 pm I could take a train. But that is not the case.

The idea is any doctor wants your heart to race a bit each day.  Doing some mild exercising in the beginning like a power walk may help, or walking up and down the stairs.  Or taking a walk with a significant other.  It's not your skeletal muscles necessarily that needs the workout.  It's your heart and blood vessels.  Skeletal muscles are a nice secondary effect, which are the same organs that could also aid in sugar control when needed.

Quote
I am not supporting my lifestyle. But I have not had a diseased life. I have been blessed in that regard.

That's great.  BUT, your lifestyle carries risks.  It accumulates on you day after day, until you become symptomatic.

Natural eating patterns may be one big meal in the evening and then left over scraps in the morning, no lunch.

When they look at traditional and hunter gatherer cultures they often eat just one big meal per day.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline minasoliman

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #155 on: June 26, 2013, 09:50:50 PM »
Quote
If you have comments, I will learn something from it. My notion here is that if there is a sudden rise in obesity, it is not genetics. This is more or less an Occam's razor analysis and I know well enough that this principle often fails in biological systems.

Indeed it does fail, but not a bad tool to use nevertheless.  If there are obese people that are not developing diabetes or high cholesterol and thin people that are, then we have to concede that there seems to be a genetic susceptibility to getting fat easily.  We can find these two groups of people with same eating habits, same level of activity, and in fact same morbidity risks, but different body reactions to the foods we eat.  Thus, these different reactions point to genetics.

Quote
My intention here was to describe myself and my eating habits and all of my faults. Red wine is because I do not care for white wine.

I do not know if it is alright. This is how I have been for the past 30  years or more or let me just say I stopped eating breakfast in 1971. I stopped eating lunch in 1982. The reason was that I was more productive and I thought more clearly. I have never met anyone with this particular eating habit.

...

This is the most interesting statement that you made. Explain a priori, or preferably a reference to my eating style.

It's a dangerous thing to allow your body to have one major meal a day.  In essence you are bombarding your body with more than it can handle.  It's like rather than walking back and forth to your car to pick up the bags of groceries little by little, you pick up all the bags of groceries all at once, and then try closing the trunk, opening the door, and walking up the stairs all while suffering picking up the bags.  Some things will eventually fall off the floor.  Other times, you may trip.

Your body when bombarded with one meal will cause a SURGE of insulin pounding on every cell of your body.  Eventually, your cells will be like "I can't take this anymore, I refuse to effected by all this insulin I'm being hit by."  And thus you develop insulin resistance.  Frequent small meals is the healthy way to go, and the more frequent the better.

Quote
Occasional means once every two months as far as going out to get food. You might object to what I cook in the interim. Pizza is not high carb, it is a balanced meal. It depends on what you bake.

If you lived my life you would not be allowed to eat whole wheat bread. As a consolation you could eat flour-less sprouted wheat bread.

You have gluten issues?  Do you have some sort of sprue?

A pizza from what I understand by conventional wisdom is high carbs and high fat (cheese and bread, literally, with some tomato sauce).  That's not "nutritious".  You need high protein, low carb, low fat.  I would treat pizza like I would alcohol.  Needs to be taken on occasion.

Quote
Fidgeting, means I have a difficult time staying in one place. I pace. I walk around when I write and type when I come up with the sentence to write. I read while pacing. I find it difficult sitting for two hours watching a movie. I go up and down stairs about 10 times a day. I do not work at a desk unless I am reviewing a paper or writing a paper (usually standing up). I work standing up. You can complain that I am not using all of my muscles. But why would this not be nitpicking? I would love to use public transportation. I have the stress of rush hour commutes, but public transportation here falls off considerably at 6:00 pm and taking a bus with three transfers through rush hour traffic for 30 miles takes about 2.5 hrs. I looked this up. If I could get done routinely by 6 pm I could take a train. But that is not the case.

The idea is any doctor wants your heart to race a bit each day.  Doing some mild exercising in the beginning like a power walk may help, or walking up and down the stairs.  Or taking a walk with a significant other.  It's not your skeletal muscles necessarily that needs the workout.  It's your heart and blood vessels.  Skeletal muscles are a nice secondary effect, which are the same organs that could also aid in sugar control when needed.

Quote
I am not supporting my lifestyle. But I have not had a diseased life. I have been blessed in that regard.

That's great.  BUT, your lifestyle carries risks.  It accumulates on you day after day, until you become symptomatic.

Natural eating patterns may be one big meal in the evening and then left over scraps in the morning, no lunch.

When they look at traditional and hunter gatherer cultures they often eat just one big meal per day.

Hunter gatherers were more concerned about hunting...not carbs...so i can believe that perhaps they didn't develop insulin resistance the same way we do today.  But even then, hunter gatherers lived a relatively short life compared to today.  So all the complications of one big meal may not have gotten to them yet, or may have, causing renal failure and heart attacks at an early age...maybe.
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If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Kerdy

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #156 on: June 26, 2013, 09:54:27 PM »
Don't the monks of Athos only eat once a day?  I'm sure they do.

Offline Marc1152

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #157 on: June 26, 2013, 10:03:31 PM »
Quote
If you have comments, I will learn something from it. My notion here is that if there is a sudden rise in obesity, it is not genetics. This is more or less an Occam's razor analysis and I know well enough that this principle often fails in biological systems.

Indeed it does fail, but not a bad tool to use nevertheless.  If there are obese people that are not developing diabetes or high cholesterol and thin people that are, then we have to concede that there seems to be a genetic susceptibility to getting fat easily.  We can find these two groups of people with same eating habits, same level of activity, and in fact same morbidity risks, but different body reactions to the foods we eat.  Thus, these different reactions point to genetics.

Quote
My intention here was to describe myself and my eating habits and all of my faults. Red wine is because I do not care for white wine.

I do not know if it is alright. This is how I have been for the past 30  years or more or let me just say I stopped eating breakfast in 1971. I stopped eating lunch in 1982. The reason was that I was more productive and I thought more clearly. I have never met anyone with this particular eating habit.

...

This is the most interesting statement that you made. Explain a priori, or preferably a reference to my eating style.

It's a dangerous thing to allow your body to have one major meal a day.  In essence you are bombarding your body with more than it can handle.  It's like rather than walking back and forth to your car to pick up the bags of groceries little by little, you pick up all the bags of groceries all at once, and then try closing the trunk, opening the door, and walking up the stairs all while suffering picking up the bags.  Some things will eventually fall off the floor.  Other times, you may trip.

Your body when bombarded with one meal will cause a SURGE of insulin pounding on every cell of your body.  Eventually, your cells will be like "I can't take this anymore, I refuse to effected by all this insulin I'm being hit by."  And thus you develop insulin resistance.  Frequent small meals is the healthy way to go, and the more frequent the better.

Quote
Occasional means once every two months as far as going out to get food. You might object to what I cook in the interim. Pizza is not high carb, it is a balanced meal. It depends on what you bake.

If you lived my life you would not be allowed to eat whole wheat bread. As a consolation you could eat flour-less sprouted wheat bread.

You have gluten issues?  Do you have some sort of sprue?

A pizza from what I understand by conventional wisdom is high carbs and high fat (cheese and bread, literally, with some tomato sauce).  That's not "nutritious".  You need high protein, low carb, low fat.  I would treat pizza like I would alcohol.  Needs to be taken on occasion.

Quote
Fidgeting, means I have a difficult time staying in one place. I pace. I walk around when I write and type when I come up with the sentence to write. I read while pacing. I find it difficult sitting for two hours watching a movie. I go up and down stairs about 10 times a day. I do not work at a desk unless I am reviewing a paper or writing a paper (usually standing up). I work standing up. You can complain that I am not using all of my muscles. But why would this not be nitpicking? I would love to use public transportation. I have the stress of rush hour commutes, but public transportation here falls off considerably at 6:00 pm and taking a bus with three transfers through rush hour traffic for 30 miles takes about 2.5 hrs. I looked this up. If I could get done routinely by 6 pm I could take a train. But that is not the case.

The idea is any doctor wants your heart to race a bit each day.  Doing some mild exercising in the beginning like a power walk may help, or walking up and down the stairs.  Or taking a walk with a significant other.  It's not your skeletal muscles necessarily that needs the workout.  It's your heart and blood vessels.  Skeletal muscles are a nice secondary effect, which are the same organs that could also aid in sugar control when needed.

Quote
I am not supporting my lifestyle. But I have not had a diseased life. I have been blessed in that regard.

That's great.  BUT, your lifestyle carries risks.  It accumulates on you day after day, until you become symptomatic.

Natural eating patterns may be one big meal in the evening and then left over scraps in the morning, no lunch.

When they look at traditional and hunter gatherer cultures they often eat just one big meal per day.

Hunter gatherers were more concerned about hunting...not carbs...so i can believe that perhaps they didn't develop insulin resistance the same way we do today.  But even then, hunter gatherers lived a relatively short life compared to today.  So all the complications of one big meal may not have gotten to them yet, or may have, causing renal failure and heart attacks at an early age...maybe.

That is a popular myth. Hunter gatherers and even traditional cultures that survived into modern times are far healthier than we are. They are free of heart disease, cancer is unheard of, they were taller and more robust. They had no dental carries.  They died of trauma and infection. There was no medical care and no sanitation etc.  

Our bodies are genetically identical to theirs. We are hard wired to eat the foods they ate and it probably wouldnt hurt to follow the same eating patterns as well.

This youtube is really cute and informative. Just 5 minutes of your time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCFZoqmKf5M
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 10:04:18 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline minasoliman

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #158 on: June 26, 2013, 10:26:13 PM »
Quote
If you have comments, I will learn something from it. My notion here is that if there is a sudden rise in obesity, it is not genetics. This is more or less an Occam's razor analysis and I know well enough that this principle often fails in biological systems.

Indeed it does fail, but not a bad tool to use nevertheless.  If there are obese people that are not developing diabetes or high cholesterol and thin people that are, then we have to concede that there seems to be a genetic susceptibility to getting fat easily.  We can find these two groups of people with same eating habits, same level of activity, and in fact same morbidity risks, but different body reactions to the foods we eat.  Thus, these different reactions point to genetics.

Quote
My intention here was to describe myself and my eating habits and all of my faults. Red wine is because I do not care for white wine.

I do not know if it is alright. This is how I have been for the past 30  years or more or let me just say I stopped eating breakfast in 1971. I stopped eating lunch in 1982. The reason was that I was more productive and I thought more clearly. I have never met anyone with this particular eating habit.

...

This is the most interesting statement that you made. Explain a priori, or preferably a reference to my eating style.

It's a dangerous thing to allow your body to have one major meal a day.  In essence you are bombarding your body with more than it can handle.  It's like rather than walking back and forth to your car to pick up the bags of groceries little by little, you pick up all the bags of groceries all at once, and then try closing the trunk, opening the door, and walking up the stairs all while suffering picking up the bags.  Some things will eventually fall off the floor.  Other times, you may trip.

Your body when bombarded with one meal will cause a SURGE of insulin pounding on every cell of your body.  Eventually, your cells will be like "I can't take this anymore, I refuse to effected by all this insulin I'm being hit by."  And thus you develop insulin resistance.  Frequent small meals is the healthy way to go, and the more frequent the better.

Quote
Occasional means once every two months as far as going out to get food. You might object to what I cook in the interim. Pizza is not high carb, it is a balanced meal. It depends on what you bake.

If you lived my life you would not be allowed to eat whole wheat bread. As a consolation you could eat flour-less sprouted wheat bread.

You have gluten issues?  Do you have some sort of sprue?

A pizza from what I understand by conventional wisdom is high carbs and high fat (cheese and bread, literally, with some tomato sauce).  That's not "nutritious".  You need high protein, low carb, low fat.  I would treat pizza like I would alcohol.  Needs to be taken on occasion.

Quote
Fidgeting, means I have a difficult time staying in one place. I pace. I walk around when I write and type when I come up with the sentence to write. I read while pacing. I find it difficult sitting for two hours watching a movie. I go up and down stairs about 10 times a day. I do not work at a desk unless I am reviewing a paper or writing a paper (usually standing up). I work standing up. You can complain that I am not using all of my muscles. But why would this not be nitpicking? I would love to use public transportation. I have the stress of rush hour commutes, but public transportation here falls off considerably at 6:00 pm and taking a bus with three transfers through rush hour traffic for 30 miles takes about 2.5 hrs. I looked this up. If I could get done routinely by 6 pm I could take a train. But that is not the case.

The idea is any doctor wants your heart to race a bit each day.  Doing some mild exercising in the beginning like a power walk may help, or walking up and down the stairs.  Or taking a walk with a significant other.  It's not your skeletal muscles necessarily that needs the workout.  It's your heart and blood vessels.  Skeletal muscles are a nice secondary effect, which are the same organs that could also aid in sugar control when needed.

Quote
I am not supporting my lifestyle. But I have not had a diseased life. I have been blessed in that regard.

That's great.  BUT, your lifestyle carries risks.  It accumulates on you day after day, until you become symptomatic.

Natural eating patterns may be one big meal in the evening and then left over scraps in the morning, no lunch.

When they look at traditional and hunter gatherer cultures they often eat just one big meal per day.

Hunter gatherers were more concerned about hunting...not carbs...so i can believe that perhaps they didn't develop insulin resistance the same way we do today.  But even then, hunter gatherers lived a relatively short life compared to today.  So all the complications of one big meal may not have gotten to them yet, or may have, causing renal failure and heart attacks at an early age...maybe.

That is a popular myth. Hunter gatherers and even traditional cultures that survived into modern times are far healthier than we are. They are free of heart disease, cancer is unheard of, they were taller and more robust. They had no dental carries.  They died of trauma and infection. There was no medical care and no sanitation etc. 

Our bodies are genetically identical to theirs. We are hard wired to eat the foods they ate and it probably wouldnt hurt to follow the same eating patterns as well.

This youtube is really cute and informative. Just 5 minutes of your time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCFZoqmKf5M

I feel like I'm watching an organic advocate video  ;)  :P

But honestly, I think the video makes some accuracies but also some unproven generalizations (like MS, Cancer, and Crohn's being linked to diet...but not really proven yet).  Plus, physicians do take a nutrition course.  It's mandatory.  And we are taught good medicine is preventative medicine, not drugs.

I think also the idea that pharma controls doctors is demeaning to the profession.  It's not necessarily true.  Doctors are genuinely concerned of the well-being of their patients.  If you follow along with a primary care physician as you should, you won't be told, "Here, try this drug" unless for a very specific reason.

If I can take something from the Paleo video you sent me, you haven't really disproven my point.  Their lifespan was cut short while our's are longer, and thus, we get hit with the complications, while our ancestor cavemen didn't get a chance to get those complications.  Yes, I mentioned perhaps, they did, but I also understand that they were struggling against the wild and thus papa bear and mama lion might get to them first before renal failure and heart disease.

In addition, I could also take from this video the fact that our ancestor cavemen were much more active than we are today.  They lived a lifestyle that forced them to always be on the move and hunt and have their hearts racing and the muscles strengthening.  Thus, activities that resulted in good cardiovascular health and muscular strength may have prevented insulin resistance (sorta like a ying yang...back to my analogy...their bodies were probably strong enough to withstand the insulin punch they get...their muscles were very actively involved in actually wanting to catch all the insulin they can get to take in the sugars and the protein and the fat).

Sooo....ya...and this makes no difference, but we are genetically different in other ways, but certainly you might be right about how our body processes food...yes, we're not different.  We have evolved, but perhaps not food-processing-wise yet.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 10:28:17 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #159 on: June 26, 2013, 10:28:34 PM »
Honestly, these arguments on youtube are a lot more fun.  :police:

Offline Marc1152

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #160 on: June 26, 2013, 11:18:42 PM »
Quote
If you have comments, I will learn something from it. My notion here is that if there is a sudden rise in obesity, it is not genetics. This is more or less an Occam's razor analysis and I know well enough that this principle often fails in biological systems.

Indeed it does fail, but not a bad tool to use nevertheless.  If there are obese people that are not developing diabetes or high cholesterol and thin people that are, then we have to concede that there seems to be a genetic susceptibility to getting fat easily.  We can find these two groups of people with same eating habits, same level of activity, and in fact same morbidity risks, but different body reactions to the foods we eat.  Thus, these different reactions point to genetics.

Quote
My intention here was to describe myself and my eating habits and all of my faults. Red wine is because I do not care for white wine.

I do not know if it is alright. This is how I have been for the past 30  years or more or let me just say I stopped eating breakfast in 1971. I stopped eating lunch in 1982. The reason was that I was more productive and I thought more clearly. I have never met anyone with this particular eating habit.

...

This is the most interesting statement that you made. Explain a priori, or preferably a reference to my eating style.

It's a dangerous thing to allow your body to have one major meal a day.  In essence you are bombarding your body with more than it can handle.  It's like rather than walking back and forth to your car to pick up the bags of groceries little by little, you pick up all the bags of groceries all at once, and then try closing the trunk, opening the door, and walking up the stairs all while suffering picking up the bags.  Some things will eventually fall off the floor.  Other times, you may trip.

Your body when bombarded with one meal will cause a SURGE of insulin pounding on every cell of your body.  Eventually, your cells will be like "I can't take this anymore, I refuse to effected by all this insulin I'm being hit by."  And thus you develop insulin resistance.  Frequent small meals is the healthy way to go, and the more frequent the better.

Quote
Occasional means once every two months as far as going out to get food. You might object to what I cook in the interim. Pizza is not high carb, it is a balanced meal. It depends on what you bake.

If you lived my life you would not be allowed to eat whole wheat bread. As a consolation you could eat flour-less sprouted wheat bread.

You have gluten issues?  Do you have some sort of sprue?

A pizza from what I understand by conventional wisdom is high carbs and high fat (cheese and bread, literally, with some tomato sauce).  That's not "nutritious".  You need high protein, low carb, low fat.  I would treat pizza like I would alcohol.  Needs to be taken on occasion.

Quote
Fidgeting, means I have a difficult time staying in one place. I pace. I walk around when I write and type when I come up with the sentence to write. I read while pacing. I find it difficult sitting for two hours watching a movie. I go up and down stairs about 10 times a day. I do not work at a desk unless I am reviewing a paper or writing a paper (usually standing up). I work standing up. You can complain that I am not using all of my muscles. But why would this not be nitpicking? I would love to use public transportation. I have the stress of rush hour commutes, but public transportation here falls off considerably at 6:00 pm and taking a bus with three transfers through rush hour traffic for 30 miles takes about 2.5 hrs. I looked this up. If I could get done routinely by 6 pm I could take a train. But that is not the case.

The idea is any doctor wants your heart to race a bit each day.  Doing some mild exercising in the beginning like a power walk may help, or walking up and down the stairs.  Or taking a walk with a significant other.  It's not your skeletal muscles necessarily that needs the workout.  It's your heart and blood vessels.  Skeletal muscles are a nice secondary effect, which are the same organs that could also aid in sugar control when needed.

Quote
I am not supporting my lifestyle. But I have not had a diseased life. I have been blessed in that regard.

That's great.  BUT, your lifestyle carries risks.  It accumulates on you day after day, until you become symptomatic.

Natural eating patterns may be one big meal in the evening and then left over scraps in the morning, no lunch.

When they look at traditional and hunter gatherer cultures they often eat just one big meal per day.

Hunter gatherers were more concerned about hunting...not carbs...so i can believe that perhaps they didn't develop insulin resistance the same way we do today.  But even then, hunter gatherers lived a relatively short life compared to today.  So all the complications of one big meal may not have gotten to them yet, or may have, causing renal failure and heart attacks at an early age...maybe.

That is a popular myth. Hunter gatherers and even traditional cultures that survived into modern times are far healthier than we are. They are free of heart disease, cancer is unheard of, they were taller and more robust. They had no dental carries.  They died of trauma and infection. There was no medical care and no sanitation etc. 

Our bodies are genetically identical to theirs. We are hard wired to eat the foods they ate and it probably wouldnt hurt to follow the same eating patterns as well.

This youtube is really cute and informative. Just 5 minutes of your time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCFZoqmKf5M

I feel like I'm watching an organic advocate video  ;)  :P

But honestly, I think the video makes some accuracies but also some unproven generalizations (like MS, Cancer, and Crohn's being linked to diet...but not really proven yet).  Plus, physicians do take a nutrition course.  It's mandatory.  And we are taught good medicine is preventative medicine, not drugs.

I think also the idea that pharma controls doctors is demeaning to the profession.  It's not necessarily true.  Doctors are genuinely concerned of the well-being of their patients.  If you follow along with a primary care physician as you should, you won't be told, "Here, try this drug" unless for a very specific reason.

If I can take something from the Paleo video you sent me, you haven't really disproven my point.  Their lifespan was cut short while our's are longer, and thus, we get hit with the complications, while our ancestor cavemen didn't get a chance to get those complications.  Yes, I mentioned perhaps, they did, but I also understand that they were struggling against the wild and thus papa bear and mama lion might get to them first before renal failure and heart disease.

In addition, I could also take from this video the fact that our ancestor cavemen were much more active than we are today.  They lived a lifestyle that forced them to always be on the move and hunt and have their hearts racing and the muscles strengthening.  Thus, activities that resulted in good cardiovascular health and muscular strength may have prevented insulin resistance (sorta like a ying yang...back to my analogy...their bodies were probably strong enough to withstand the insulin punch they get...their muscles were very actively involved in actually wanting to catch all the insulin they can get to take in the sugars and the protein and the fat).

Sooo....ya...and this makes no difference, but we are genetically different in other ways, but certainly you might be right about how our body processes food...yes, we're not different.  We have evolved, but perhaps not food-processing-wise yet.

I think also the idea that pharma controls doctors is demeaning to the profession.

LOL  Ya think?

Much deserved IMHO

There was a scandle uncovered a year or so ago that the Pharmacitical Industry would secretly pay well thought of physicians to talk up their drugs at meetings and luncheons... they were being paid to start favorable table talk/ 

Despicable...dont get me started

 

American plains Indians slept late every morning. Hunting and gathering took them about 3 hours per day.

The Obesity epidemic coincided with a boom in interest in exercise. 

Youre guessing
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline minasoliman

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #161 on: June 26, 2013, 11:27:57 PM »
Quote
If you have comments, I will learn something from it. My notion here is that if there is a sudden rise in obesity, it is not genetics. This is more or less an Occam's razor analysis and I know well enough that this principle often fails in biological systems.

Indeed it does fail, but not a bad tool to use nevertheless.  If there are obese people that are not developing diabetes or high cholesterol and thin people that are, then we have to concede that there seems to be a genetic susceptibility to getting fat easily.  We can find these two groups of people with same eating habits, same level of activity, and in fact same morbidity risks, but different body reactions to the foods we eat.  Thus, these different reactions point to genetics.

Quote
My intention here was to describe myself and my eating habits and all of my faults. Red wine is because I do not care for white wine.

I do not know if it is alright. This is how I have been for the past 30  years or more or let me just say I stopped eating breakfast in 1971. I stopped eating lunch in 1982. The reason was that I was more productive and I thought more clearly. I have never met anyone with this particular eating habit.

...

This is the most interesting statement that you made. Explain a priori, or preferably a reference to my eating style.

It's a dangerous thing to allow your body to have one major meal a day.  In essence you are bombarding your body with more than it can handle.  It's like rather than walking back and forth to your car to pick up the bags of groceries little by little, you pick up all the bags of groceries all at once, and then try closing the trunk, opening the door, and walking up the stairs all while suffering picking up the bags.  Some things will eventually fall off the floor.  Other times, you may trip.

Your body when bombarded with one meal will cause a SURGE of insulin pounding on every cell of your body.  Eventually, your cells will be like "I can't take this anymore, I refuse to effected by all this insulin I'm being hit by."  And thus you develop insulin resistance.  Frequent small meals is the healthy way to go, and the more frequent the better.

Quote
Occasional means once every two months as far as going out to get food. You might object to what I cook in the interim. Pizza is not high carb, it is a balanced meal. It depends on what you bake.

If you lived my life you would not be allowed to eat whole wheat bread. As a consolation you could eat flour-less sprouted wheat bread.

You have gluten issues?  Do you have some sort of sprue?

A pizza from what I understand by conventional wisdom is high carbs and high fat (cheese and bread, literally, with some tomato sauce).  That's not "nutritious".  You need high protein, low carb, low fat.  I would treat pizza like I would alcohol.  Needs to be taken on occasion.

Quote
Fidgeting, means I have a difficult time staying in one place. I pace. I walk around when I write and type when I come up with the sentence to write. I read while pacing. I find it difficult sitting for two hours watching a movie. I go up and down stairs about 10 times a day. I do not work at a desk unless I am reviewing a paper or writing a paper (usually standing up). I work standing up. You can complain that I am not using all of my muscles. But why would this not be nitpicking? I would love to use public transportation. I have the stress of rush hour commutes, but public transportation here falls off considerably at 6:00 pm and taking a bus with three transfers through rush hour traffic for 30 miles takes about 2.5 hrs. I looked this up. If I could get done routinely by 6 pm I could take a train. But that is not the case.

The idea is any doctor wants your heart to race a bit each day.  Doing some mild exercising in the beginning like a power walk may help, or walking up and down the stairs.  Or taking a walk with a significant other.  It's not your skeletal muscles necessarily that needs the workout.  It's your heart and blood vessels.  Skeletal muscles are a nice secondary effect, which are the same organs that could also aid in sugar control when needed.

Quote
I am not supporting my lifestyle. But I have not had a diseased life. I have been blessed in that regard.

That's great.  BUT, your lifestyle carries risks.  It accumulates on you day after day, until you become symptomatic.

Natural eating patterns may be one big meal in the evening and then left over scraps in the morning, no lunch.

When they look at traditional and hunter gatherer cultures they often eat just one big meal per day.

Hunter gatherers were more concerned about hunting...not carbs...so i can believe that perhaps they didn't develop insulin resistance the same way we do today.  But even then, hunter gatherers lived a relatively short life compared to today.  So all the complications of one big meal may not have gotten to them yet, or may have, causing renal failure and heart attacks at an early age...maybe.

That is a popular myth. Hunter gatherers and even traditional cultures that survived into modern times are far healthier than we are. They are free of heart disease, cancer is unheard of, they were taller and more robust. They had no dental carries.  They died of trauma and infection. There was no medical care and no sanitation etc. 

Our bodies are genetically identical to theirs. We are hard wired to eat the foods they ate and it probably wouldnt hurt to follow the same eating patterns as well.

This youtube is really cute and informative. Just 5 minutes of your time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCFZoqmKf5M

I feel like I'm watching an organic advocate video  ;)  :P

But honestly, I think the video makes some accuracies but also some unproven generalizations (like MS, Cancer, and Crohn's being linked to diet...but not really proven yet).  Plus, physicians do take a nutrition course.  It's mandatory.  And we are taught good medicine is preventative medicine, not drugs.

I think also the idea that pharma controls doctors is demeaning to the profession.  It's not necessarily true.  Doctors are genuinely concerned of the well-being of their patients.  If you follow along with a primary care physician as you should, you won't be told, "Here, try this drug" unless for a very specific reason.

If I can take something from the Paleo video you sent me, you haven't really disproven my point.  Their lifespan was cut short while our's are longer, and thus, we get hit with the complications, while our ancestor cavemen didn't get a chance to get those complications.  Yes, I mentioned perhaps, they did, but I also understand that they were struggling against the wild and thus papa bear and mama lion might get to them first before renal failure and heart disease.

In addition, I could also take from this video the fact that our ancestor cavemen were much more active than we are today.  They lived a lifestyle that forced them to always be on the move and hunt and have their hearts racing and the muscles strengthening.  Thus, activities that resulted in good cardiovascular health and muscular strength may have prevented insulin resistance (sorta like a ying yang...back to my analogy...their bodies were probably strong enough to withstand the insulin punch they get...their muscles were very actively involved in actually wanting to catch all the insulin they can get to take in the sugars and the protein and the fat).

Sooo....ya...and this makes no difference, but we are genetically different in other ways, but certainly you might be right about how our body processes food...yes, we're not different.  We have evolved, but perhaps not food-processing-wise yet.

I think also the idea that pharma controls doctors is demeaning to the profession.

LOL  Ya think?

Much deserved IMHO

There was a scandle uncovered a year or so ago that the Pharmacitical Industry would secretly pay well thought of physicians to talk up their drugs at meetings and luncheons... they were being paid to start favorable table talk/ 

Despicable...dont get me started

 

American plains Indians slept late every morning. Hunting and gathering took them about 3 hours per day.

The Obesity epidemic coincided with a boom in interest in exercise. 

Youre guessing

I'm not guessing...you're proving exactly what I'm saying.  Hunting and gathering for 3 hrs a day.  It's recommended that a "good exercise" is at least an hour a day.  Those hunters sure are getting the requirements easily.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #162 on: June 26, 2013, 11:30:04 PM »
Speaking of, there was an article in PLOS ONE earlier this month about some neandertal from like 100,000 years ago that had cancer fibrous dysplastia.

EDIT--Sorry, wrong term.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 11:32:37 PM by Asteriktos »

Offline J Michael

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #163 on: June 27, 2013, 10:46:25 AM »
Minasoliman, are you in a bad mood. The "ignorant reply" statement was overdoing it. I am not knowledgeable about a lot of things but the destructive effects of dieting is not one of them. You need to get married to a dieter that is an extremist and switches from one diet to another.

I read two reviews and a number of research papers (mostly skimming for these) on NOMW. I did accidentally read the Choi et al paper cited above. I am pretty sure low carb dieters would not consider 60% calories from carbs as low carb. The issue of being overweight and not obese is also an issue.

We can debate about this, there are not that many papers to cover (my guess would be ~40), but I think it is beside the point.

I never promoted a diet of junk food. It is certainly not part of my lifestyle. I was promoting the idea that it is OK to have carbs with your meal, a hamburger on occasion and pizza (which can be quite nutritious).

If a worthwhile life until 100 necessitates distractions from what you believe is worthwhile (and I am not talking about what you eat), then I am out. Sixty-five is good enough.

For your information, I probably purchase prepared meals once a month. I cook everything from scratch. I always have fresh vegetables, fruit, a starch and a protein (mostly chicken and pork, beef is too expensive these days). I make my own pizza when I have it, I make my own broths for cooking, etc. I spend a couple of hours in the grocery store on the weekend doing mental algebra in conjuction with manufacturer coupons.

Somewhere up above I hopefully mentioned the notion that activity is important. I am fidgety. I read standing up while pacing, I write standing up. The only time I sit much is like  now when I am typing these posts. I have one meal a day (a big one) usually between 7:30-8:30 pm (depending on when I get home) with red wine. Breakfast is coffee and cigarettes. Lunch is water throughout the day.

That's the difference usually between a person that lives a fulfilling life to 80 and a diseased life to 60.


 ??? ???

Could you clarify that, please?  It does seem like somewhat of an over-generalization.  Thank you!

I'm not over-generalizing.  One large meal a day for instance is a recipe for eventual disaster.  A cigarette each morning is also not healthy.  Unless you're part of the 0.001% of the genetically evolved few that we have yet to discover that can live a healthy lifestyle while smoking and eating one large meal a day. (do you feel lucky? do ya?)

If my provocative statements are scaring you, GOOD!

You're not scaring me in the least.  I guess I should've been clearer about what I consider to be your over-generalization.  Sorry 'bout that.  See the highlighted part in blue above?  Well, that could be interpreted by some to imply that those who live "diseased" lives do not lead "fulfilling" ones whether they live to 20 or 120, and only those who do not live a "diseased" life have a fulfilling one.  Now, I know you didn't say that explicitly, but the implication is there.  I'm not saying that you believe that, either, but I do know and know of not a few people who think that way.

Now you guys can carry on arguing about the details.  Like I said elsewhere, who needs daytime t.v. when there are threads like this ;D?
"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #164 on: June 27, 2013, 10:55:25 AM »
Every man dies.  Not every man has gangsta fries.



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Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #165 on: June 27, 2013, 11:09:37 AM »
Quote
If you have comments, I will learn something from it. My notion here is that if there is a sudden rise in obesity, it is not genetics. This is more or less an Occam's razor analysis and I know well enough that this principle often fails in biological systems.

Indeed it does fail, but not a bad tool to use nevertheless.  If there are obese people that are not developing diabetes or high cholesterol and thin people that are, then we have to concede that there seems to be a genetic susceptibility to getting fat easily.  We can find these two groups of people with same eating habits, same level of activity, and in fact same morbidity risks, but different body reactions to the foods we eat.  Thus, these different reactions point to genetics.

Quote
My intention here was to describe myself and my eating habits and all of my faults. Red wine is because I do not care for white wine.

I do not know if it is alright. This is how I have been for the past 30  years or more or let me just say I stopped eating breakfast in 1971. I stopped eating lunch in 1982. The reason was that I was more productive and I thought more clearly. I have never met anyone with this particular eating habit.

...

This is the most interesting statement that you made. Explain a priori, or preferably a reference to my eating style.

It's a dangerous thing to allow your body to have one major meal a day.  In essence you are bombarding your body with more than it can handle.  It's like rather than walking back and forth to your car to pick up the bags of groceries little by little, you pick up all the bags of groceries all at once, and then try closing the trunk, opening the door, and walking up the stairs all while suffering picking up the bags.  Some things will eventually fall off the floor.  Other times, you may trip.

Your body when bombarded with one meal will cause a SURGE of insulin pounding on every cell of your body.  Eventually, your cells will be like "I can't take this anymore, I refuse to effected by all this insulin I'm being hit by."  And thus you develop insulin resistance.  Frequent small meals is the healthy way to go, and the more frequent the better.

Quote
Occasional means once every two months as far as going out to get food. You might object to what I cook in the interim. Pizza is not high carb, it is a balanced meal. It depends on what you bake.

If you lived my life you would not be allowed to eat whole wheat bread. As a consolation you could eat flour-less sprouted wheat bread.

You have gluten issues?  Do you have some sort of sprue?

A pizza from what I understand by conventional wisdom is high carbs and high fat (cheese and bread, literally, with some tomato sauce).  That's not "nutritious".  You need high protein, low carb, low fat.  I would treat pizza like I would alcohol.  Needs to be taken on occasion.

Quote
Fidgeting, means I have a difficult time staying in one place. I pace. I walk around when I write and type when I come up with the sentence to write. I read while pacing. I find it difficult sitting for two hours watching a movie. I go up and down stairs about 10 times a day. I do not work at a desk unless I am reviewing a paper or writing a paper (usually standing up). I work standing up. You can complain that I am not using all of my muscles. But why would this not be nitpicking? I would love to use public transportation. I have the stress of rush hour commutes, but public transportation here falls off considerably at 6:00 pm and taking a bus with three transfers through rush hour traffic for 30 miles takes about 2.5 hrs. I looked this up. If I could get done routinely by 6 pm I could take a train. But that is not the case.

The idea is any doctor wants your heart to race a bit each day.  Doing some mild exercising in the beginning like a power walk may help, or walking up and down the stairs.  Or taking a walk with a significant other.  It's not your skeletal muscles necessarily that needs the workout.  It's your heart and blood vessels.  Skeletal muscles are a nice secondary effect, which are the same organs that could also aid in sugar control when needed.

Quote
I am not supporting my lifestyle. But I have not had a diseased life. I have been blessed in that regard.

That's great.  BUT, your lifestyle carries risks.  It accumulates on you day after day, until you become symptomatic.

Natural eating patterns may be one big meal in the evening and then left over scraps in the morning, no lunch.

When they look at traditional and hunter gatherer cultures they often eat just one big meal per day.

Hunter gatherers were more concerned about hunting...not carbs...so i can believe that perhaps they didn't develop insulin resistance the same way we do today.  But even then, hunter gatherers lived a relatively short life compared to today.  So all the complications of one big meal may not have gotten to them yet, or may have, causing renal failure and heart attacks at an early age...maybe.

That is a popular myth. Hunter gatherers and even traditional cultures that survived into modern times are far healthier than we are. They are free of heart disease, cancer is unheard of, they were taller and more robust. They had no dental carries.  They died of trauma and infection. There was no medical care and no sanitation etc. 

Our bodies are genetically identical to theirs. We are hard wired to eat the foods they ate and it probably wouldnt hurt to follow the same eating patterns as well.

This youtube is really cute and informative. Just 5 minutes of your time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCFZoqmKf5M

I feel like I'm watching an organic advocate video  ;)  :P

But honestly, I think the video makes some accuracies but also some unproven generalizations (like MS, Cancer, and Crohn's being linked to diet...but not really proven yet).  Plus, physicians do take a nutrition course.  It's mandatory.  And we are taught good medicine is preventative medicine, not drugs.

I think also the idea that pharma controls doctors is demeaning to the profession.  It's not necessarily true.  Doctors are genuinely concerned of the well-being of their patients.  If you follow along with a primary care physician as you should, you won't be told, "Here, try this drug" unless for a very specific reason.

If I can take something from the Paleo video you sent me, you haven't really disproven my point.  Their lifespan was cut short while our's are longer, and thus, we get hit with the complications, while our ancestor cavemen didn't get a chance to get those complications.  Yes, I mentioned perhaps, they did, but I also understand that they were struggling against the wild and thus papa bear and mama lion might get to them first before renal failure and heart disease.

In addition, I could also take from this video the fact that our ancestor cavemen were much more active than we are today.  They lived a lifestyle that forced them to always be on the move and hunt and have their hearts racing and the muscles strengthening.  Thus, activities that resulted in good cardiovascular health and muscular strength may have prevented insulin resistance (sorta like a ying yang...back to my analogy...their bodies were probably strong enough to withstand the insulin punch they get...their muscles were very actively involved in actually wanting to catch all the insulin they can get to take in the sugars and the protein and the fat).

Sooo....ya...and this makes no difference, but we are genetically different in other ways, but certainly you might be right about how our body processes food...yes, we're not different.  We have evolved, but perhaps not food-processing-wise yet.

I think also the idea that pharma controls doctors is demeaning to the profession.

LOL  Ya think?

Much deserved IMHO

There was a scandle uncovered a year or so ago that the Pharmacitical Industry would secretly pay well thought of physicians to talk up their drugs at meetings and luncheons... they were being paid to start favorable table talk/ 

Despicable...dont get me started

 

American plains Indians slept late every morning. Hunting and gathering took them about 3 hours per day.

The Obesity epidemic coincided with a boom in interest in exercise. 

Youre guessing

I'm not guessing...you're proving exactly what I'm saying.  Hunting and gathering for 3 hrs a day.  It's recommended that a "good exercise" is at least an hour a day.  Those hunters sure are getting the requirements easily.

But the principle under lying your observation may not be sound. Correlation does not prove causation.

Surely you must agree that  exercise each day will not be the primary cause that prevents Cancer, Heart Disease, infertility, Obesity, metabolic syndrome, shorting of build, dental carries, narrow dental arch, etc. Exercise is secondary, diet is primary.

For example, I will link you to a documentary done by the Canadian Broadcast System about Dr. Jay Wortman  who is in their public health system and is responsible for a large area in the Canadian Northwest that includes many Indian ( "First Nation") Tribes.

They suffer greatly from all the modern illnesses especially obesity and diabetes and heart problems. Indians are only a few generations away from being Hunter Gatherers so switching to the Standard Western Diet ( SAD) has hit them very hard.

He took a tribe and put them on a Low Carb High Fat diet, which basically meant going back to their traditional ways of eating which included lots of fat. The pounds dropped off, the diabetes went away, with no difference in exercise.

Here is a faq by Dr. Wortman about it:

 http://gabriolan.ca/2011/08/29/big-fat-native-diet/

Here is the documentary in 3 parts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjTmdvFH3gQ
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline J Michael

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #166 on: June 27, 2013, 11:17:11 AM »
Every man dies.  Not every man has gangsta fries.



Block 16 - Omaha, NE!

Now, that got the ol' salivary glands workin' overtime!  ;D ;D  "Gangsta fries"--classic!!
"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #167 on: June 27, 2013, 11:19:35 AM »
Speaking of, there was an article in PLOS ONE earlier this month about some neandertal from like 100,000 years ago that had cancer fibrous dysplastia.

EDIT--Sorry, wrong term.

There was a study done in 2000 of 229 remaining hunter gatherer cultures. There are also accounts from the early 20th century of the state of health of many isolated traditional peoples.. No cancer. no Heart problems etc. We can  see see from the record of Paleolithic remains, strong bones, tall and lean builds ( taller than us today), no sign of Cancer...ever.

In fact, switching to a Low Carb diet greatly inhibits cancer when it is done today as a therapy. The results speak for themselves.


So the evolutionary template for nutrition is a reasonable way to approach this issue. It needs continued testing but so far the studies and clinical results have pointed to it's validity more and more as time goes by. That is really all you can ask for at this point.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #168 on: June 27, 2013, 01:15:37 PM »
Every man dies.  Not every man has gangsta fries.



Block 16 - Omaha, NE!

Now, that got the ol' salivary glands workin' overtime!  ;D ;D  "Gangsta fries"--classic!!

The gangsta fries are on the left, dirty fries on the right (crossthread to the bacteria on food thread...)  They were in fact, pretty gangsta as far as fries go.  Green onions, special sauce, and pork rinds on top of seasoned fries.  I am getting the poutine next time I go (hopefully tomorrow).
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline J Michael

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #169 on: June 27, 2013, 03:14:47 PM »
Every man dies.  Not every man has gangsta fries.



Block 16 - Omaha, NE!

Now, that got the ol' salivary glands workin' overtime!  ;D ;D  "Gangsta fries"--classic!!

The gangsta fries are on the left, dirty fries on the right (crossthread to the bacteria on food thread...)  They were in fact, pretty gangsta as far as fries go.  Green onions, special sauce, and pork rinds on top of seasoned fries.  I am getting the poutine next time I go (hopefully tomorrow).

They both look absolutely scrumptious!  Do I need a passport to enter NE??  ;D  Or...better yet, do these guys deliver??  And hey...if it kills me, at least I'll die happy  ;D.
"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Marc1152

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #170 on: June 27, 2013, 03:31:42 PM »
Every man dies.  Not every man has gangsta fries.



Block 16 - Omaha, NE!

Now, that got the ol' salivary glands workin' overtime!  ;D ;D  "Gangsta fries"--classic!!

The gangsta fries are on the left, dirty fries on the right (crossthread to the bacteria on food thread...)  They were in fact, pretty gangsta as far as fries go.  Green onions, special sauce, and pork rinds on top of seasoned fries.  I am getting the poutine next time I go (hopefully tomorrow).

They both look absolutely scrumptious!  Do I need a passport to enter NE??  ;D  Or...better yet, do these guys deliver??  And hey...if it kills me, at least I'll die happy  ;D.

Cool.. I think you should do it.
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline J Michael

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #171 on: June 27, 2013, 03:52:28 PM »
Every man dies.  Not every man has gangsta fries.



Block 16 - Omaha, NE!

Now, that got the ol' salivary glands workin' overtime!  ;D ;D  "Gangsta fries"--classic!!

The gangsta fries are on the left, dirty fries on the right (crossthread to the bacteria on food thread...)  They were in fact, pretty gangsta as far as fries go.  Green onions, special sauce, and pork rinds on top of seasoned fries.  I am getting the poutine next time I go (hopefully tomorrow).

They both look absolutely scrumptious!  Do I need a passport to enter NE??  ;D  Or...better yet, do these guys deliver??  And hey...if it kills me, at least I'll die happy  ;D.

Cool.. I think you should do it.

Do what?  Die?  Or go to NE?  Please clarify.  Thank you.
"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #172 on: June 27, 2013, 04:04:42 PM »
Every man dies.  Not every man has gangsta fries.



Block 16 - Omaha, NE!

Now, that got the ol' salivary glands workin' overtime!  ;D ;D  "Gangsta fries"--classic!!

The gangsta fries are on the left, dirty fries on the right (crossthread to the bacteria on food thread...)  They were in fact, pretty gangsta as far as fries go.  Green onions, special sauce, and pork rinds on top of seasoned fries.  I am getting the poutine next time I go (hopefully tomorrow).

They both look absolutely scrumptious!  Do I need a passport to enter NE??  ;D  Or...better yet, do these guys deliver??  And hey...if it kills me, at least I'll die happy  ;D.

Cool.. I think you should do it.

Do what?  Die?  Or go to NE?  Please clarify.  Thank you.

Hopefully the latter.  Invitation still stands!
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #173 on: June 27, 2013, 04:12:51 PM »
Every man dies.  Not every man has gangsta fries.



Block 16 - Omaha, NE!

Now, that got the ol' salivary glands workin' overtime!  ;D ;D  "Gangsta fries"--classic!!

The gangsta fries are on the left, dirty fries on the right (crossthread to the bacteria on food thread...)  They were in fact, pretty gangsta as far as fries go.  Green onions, special sauce, and pork rinds on top of seasoned fries.  I am getting the poutine next time I go (hopefully tomorrow).

They both look absolutely scrumptious!  Do I need a passport to enter NE??  ;D  Or...better yet, do these guys deliver??  And hey...if it kills me, at least I'll die happy  ;D.

Cool.. I think you should do it.

Do what?  Die?  Or go to NE?  Please clarify.  Thank you.

Hopefully the latter.  Invitation still stands!

You know...as much as the thought of "Nebraska" kind of appalls me, what with associations with droughts, and tornadoes, and tornadoes, and tornadoes, and tornadoes, and BIG hail...maybe, with fries like those, it ain't so bad after all.  **** the Food Police and the horse they rode in on!!  ;D

Marc will be overjoyed that I will have left Maryland; I will be overjoyed that I will have left Maryland; my wife will throw an absolute conniption fit that we left Maryland and didn't get to PA.   Maybe on our way to PA when the time comes, we'll get there by way of NE and those delicious looking fries. 
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 04:31:50 PM by J Michael »
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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #174 on: June 27, 2013, 07:48:29 PM »
But the principle under lying your observation may not be sound. Correlation does not prove causation.


Surely you must agree that  exercise each day will not be the primary cause that prevents Cancer, Heart Disease, infertility, Obesity, metabolic syndrome, shorting of build, dental carries, narrow dental arch, etc. Exercise is secondary, diet is primary.

There's so many things in medical practice that is being used as a matter of correlation unfortunately.  The whole "organic" debate is a discussion of correlations, not causations, for instance.  Red wine was also a matter of correlation as well.

But I agree.  Nevertheless, I'm not saying exercise will "prevent" cancer, heard disease, etc.  It will contribute to having a better life, without taking into account the genetics and food choices that go into the issue.  What we do know is this.  Exercise does in fact aid in preventing insulin resistance based on the increased availability of muscles for increased storage of glucose.  At the very least, exercise may also prevent complications of diabetes when one already has it as well.


Quote
For example, I will link you to a documentary done by the Canadian Broadcast System about Dr. Jay Wortman  who is in their public health system and is responsible for a large area in the Canadian Northwest that includes many Indian ( "First Nation") Tribes.

They suffer greatly from all the modern illnesses especially obesity and diabetes and heart problems. Indians are only a few generations away from being Hunter Gatherers so switching to the Standard Western Diet ( SAD) has hit them very hard.

He took a tribe and put them on a Low Carb High Fat diet, which basically meant going back to their traditional ways of eating which included lots of fat. The pounds dropped off, the diabetes went away, with no difference in exercise.

Here is a faq by Dr. Wortman about it:

 http://gabriolan.ca/2011/08/29/big-fat-native-diet/

Here is the documentary in 3 parts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjTmdvFH3gQ

I don't disagree with you on the importance of diet.  If anything, I'm enjoying the fact that you are sharing with us the updated understanding behind the many causes of heart disease and diabetes, and the TEDtalks video was superb.  But I wouldn't extend the list to cancer, infertility, ibd, and ms, as a previous video you posted has.  I think that's a bit over the top.  It kind reminds me of those places that put "grass shots" into their smoothies and gives you a 20 bullet point list of the benefits of this grass shot for one's health. I took a picture of it, and plan to turn it into a demotivator with the title "BS:  When pseudoscience tries to sell"

I'll watch the videos later.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #175 on: June 27, 2013, 07:49:52 PM »
Minasoliman, are you in a bad mood. The "ignorant reply" statement was overdoing it. I am not knowledgeable about a lot of things but the destructive effects of dieting is not one of them. You need to get married to a dieter that is an extremist and switches from one diet to another.

I read two reviews and a number of research papers (mostly skimming for these) on NOMW. I did accidentally read the Choi et al paper cited above. I am pretty sure low carb dieters would not consider 60% calories from carbs as low carb. The issue of being overweight and not obese is also an issue.

We can debate about this, there are not that many papers to cover (my guess would be ~40), but I think it is beside the point.

I never promoted a diet of junk food. It is certainly not part of my lifestyle. I was promoting the idea that it is OK to have carbs with your meal, a hamburger on occasion and pizza (which can be quite nutritious).

If a worthwhile life until 100 necessitates distractions from what you believe is worthwhile (and I am not talking about what you eat), then I am out. Sixty-five is good enough.

For your information, I probably purchase prepared meals once a month. I cook everything from scratch. I always have fresh vegetables, fruit, a starch and a protein (mostly chicken and pork, beef is too expensive these days). I make my own pizza when I have it, I make my own broths for cooking, etc. I spend a couple of hours in the grocery store on the weekend doing mental algebra in conjuction with manufacturer coupons.

Somewhere up above I hopefully mentioned the notion that activity is important. I am fidgety. I read standing up while pacing, I write standing up. The only time I sit much is like  now when I am typing these posts. I have one meal a day (a big one) usually between 7:30-8:30 pm (depending on when I get home) with red wine. Breakfast is coffee and cigarettes. Lunch is water throughout the day.

That's the difference usually between a person that lives a fulfilling life to 80 and a diseased life to 60.


 ??? ???

Could you clarify that, please?  It does seem like somewhat of an over-generalization.  Thank you!

I'm not over-generalizing.  One large meal a day for instance is a recipe for eventual disaster.  A cigarette each morning is also not healthy.  Unless you're part of the 0.001% of the genetically evolved few that we have yet to discover that can live a healthy lifestyle while smoking and eating one large meal a day. (do you feel lucky? do ya?)

If my provocative statements are scaring you, GOOD!

You're not scaring me in the least.  I guess I should've been clearer about what I consider to be your over-generalization.  Sorry 'bout that.  See the highlighted part in blue above?  Well, that could be interpreted by some to imply that those who live "diseased" lives do not lead "fulfilling" ones whether they live to 20 or 120, and only those who do not live a "diseased" life have a fulfilling one.  Now, I know you didn't say that explicitly, but the implication is there.  I'm not saying that you believe that, either, but I do know and know of not a few people who think that way.

Now you guys can carry on arguing about the details.  Like I said elsewhere, who needs daytime t.v. when there are threads like this ;D?

Oh no...I don't mean diseased life means "unfulfilling".  I know many who have inspired me in the tough life they live with their conditions.  I believe though if you can prevent something, then that is more fulfilling.  That's all I'm saying.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 07:50:44 PM by minasoliman »
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Offline Marc1152

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #176 on: June 27, 2013, 10:20:35 PM »
But the principle under lying your observation may not be sound. Correlation does not prove causation.


Surely you must agree that  exercise each day will not be the primary cause that prevents Cancer, Heart Disease, infertility, Obesity, metabolic syndrome, shorting of build, dental carries, narrow dental arch, etc. Exercise is secondary, diet is primary.

There's so many things in medical practice that is being used as a matter of correlation unfortunately.  The whole "organic" debate is a discussion of correlations, not causations, for instance.  Red wine was also a matter of correlation as well.

But I agree.  Nevertheless, I'm not saying exercise will "prevent" cancer, heard disease, etc.  It will contribute to having a better life, without taking into account the genetics and food choices that go into the issue.  What we do know is this.  Exercise does in fact aid in preventing insulin resistance based on the increased availability of muscles for increased storage of glucose.  At the very least, exercise may also prevent complications of diabetes when one already has it as well.


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For example, I will link you to a documentary done by the Canadian Broadcast System about Dr. Jay Wortman  who is in their public health system and is responsible for a large area in the Canadian Northwest that includes many Indian ( "First Nation") Tribes.

They suffer greatly from all the modern illnesses especially obesity and diabetes and heart problems. Indians are only a few generations away from being Hunter Gatherers so switching to the Standard Western Diet ( SAD) has hit them very hard.

He took a tribe and put them on a Low Carb High Fat diet, which basically meant going back to their traditional ways of eating which included lots of fat. The pounds dropped off, the diabetes went away, with no difference in exercise.

Here is a faq by Dr. Wortman about it:

 http://gabriolan.ca/2011/08/29/big-fat-native-diet/

Here is the documentary in 3 parts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjTmdvFH3gQ

I don't disagree with you on the importance of diet.  If anything, I'm enjoying the fact that you are sharing with us the updated understanding behind the many causes of heart disease and diabetes, and the TEDtalks video was superb.  But I wouldn't extend the list to cancer, infertility, ibd, and ms, as a previous video you posted has.  I think that's a bit over the top.  It kind reminds me of those places that put "grass shots" into their smoothies and gives you a 20 bullet point list of the benefits of this grass shot for one's health. I took a picture of it, and plan to turn it into a demotivator with the title "BS:  When pseudoscience tries to sell"

I'll watch the videos later.

My understanding is that when obese people exercise they get hungrier and often eat back all the calories and then some. I posted a link to a study of overweight children where exactly that was observed.

People who are lean do have a diminution of appetite. But they do not need to lose weight. Therefore, exercise should come with a caution to obese people that it may make their struggle to stay on their diet harder.

Here is a you tube by an infertility specialist in Jacksonville Florida who uses a  Low Carb High Fat diet as a therapy for infertility and has been reporting good results.

All of these things need to be studied at great length. However, the drug industry pulls most of the funding strings so getting proper studies done of Low Carb Diets as a therapy for all kinds of things is hard to come by.

However Dr. Attia and Gary Taubes have started a foundation for that purpose, to have good science done and test the clinical evidence that has been coming in. i will link to that as well.

Question for you. Do you prescribe statins on a regular basis?  

NUScience

http://nusi.org/about-us/a-letter-from-the-founders/gary-taubes/#.UczxB22PyhE

Low Carb Diet and fertility:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0WOqaTTzaI
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 10:25:39 PM by Marc1152 »
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Opus118

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #177 on: June 28, 2013, 01:31:06 AM »
I am sorry for the delayed response. One of the questions was based on an answer I made from memory so I had to find an internet accessible source.

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If you have comments, I will learn something from it. My notion here is that if there is a sudden rise in obesity, it is not genetics. This is more or less an Occam's razor analysis and I know well enough that this principle often fails in biological systems.

Indeed it does fail, but not a bad tool to use nevertheless.  If there are obese people that are not developing diabetes or high cholesterol and thin people that are, then we have to concede that there seems to be a genetic susceptibility to getting fat easily.  We can find these two groups of people with same eating habits, same level of activity, and in fact same morbidity risks, but different body reactions to the foods we eat.  Thus, these different reactions point to genetics.

I have zero argument against this. My notion dealt with the rise of obesity. If this is wrong then there is nothing to discuss.

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My intention here was to describe myself and my eating habits and all of my faults. Red wine is because I do not care for white wine.

I do not know if it is alright. This is how I have been for the past 30  years or more or let me just say I stopped eating breakfast in 1971. I stopped eating lunch in 1982. The reason was that I was more productive and I thought more clearly. I have never met anyone with this particular eating habit.

...

This is the most interesting statement that you made. Explain a priori, or preferably a reference to my eating style.


It's a dangerous thing to allow your body to have one major meal a day.  In essence you are bombarding your body with more than it can handle.  It's like rather than walking back and forth to your car to pick up the bags of groceries little by little, you pick up all the bags of groceries all at once, and then try closing the trunk, opening the door, and walking up the stairs all while suffering picking up the bags.  Some things will eventually fall off the floor.  Other times, you may trip.

Your body when bombarded with one meal will cause a SURGE of insulin pounding on every cell of your body.  Eventually, your cells will be like "I can't take this anymore, I refuse to effected by all this insulin I'm being hit by."  And thus you develop insulin resistance.  Frequent small meals is the healthy way to go, and the more frequent the better.

I was told this before I stopped eating lunch. What you are saying may be true. Shouldn't this be reflected in the school system if it is true. That is, partaking in increments breakfast at 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 am, partaking in lunch at 12, 1, 2, 3, 4 pm, partaking in dinner 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 pm. That is a no-brainer based on your principle. Do people that do this not have a full fledged breakfast, lunch and dinner? I have never come across these type of people (then again I have never come across anyone that eats like I do). Which is worse: Spike - Spike - Spike for breakfast lunch and dinner that most people use or __ - __ _ Spike that I am using. Is there a concentration effect of eating 800, 800, 800 calories vs 0, 0, 2400 calories in the insulin response. I do not know the answer to this question.  Seems like a pretty simple study that could have been performed.

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Occasional means once every two months as far as going out to get food. You might object to what I cook in the interim. Pizza is not high carb, it is a balanced meal. It depends on what you bake.

If you lived my life you would not be allowed to eat whole wheat bread. As a consolation you could eat flour-less sprouted wheat bread.

You have gluten issues?  Do you have some sort of sprue?

No, I was forced into dietary constraints due to a low carb extremist. I thought I was clear about this in my warning to you.


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A pizza from what I understand by conventional wisdom is high carbs and high fat (cheese and bread, literally, with some tomato sauce).  That's not "nutritious".  You need high protein, low carb, low fat.  I would treat pizza like I would alcohol.  Needs to be taken on occasion.

This is what I had to look up. I bake pizzas with great effect in including vegetables in the diet. Visible would be onions, mushrooms, peppers, zucchini, eggplant sauteed in olive oil  and basil. Less noticeable is the sliced tomatoes, carrots, celery in the tomato sauce.

The basis for my statement that pizza is nutritious derives from this text book for undergraduates by Paul Saltman and a consortium of nutrition scientist in the UC system:
http://www.amazon.com/University-California-Diego-Nutrition-Book/dp/0316769819

This is what I found that is accessible:
http://calteches.library.caltech.edu/566/02/Saltman.pdf

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"Do you want to know what's the most nutritious food in terms of its nutrient density that you can buy in a supermarket? Pizza. I'm serious. All the nutrients from the bag are in a well-made pizza. Of course everyone eats pizza because it's good for
them, right? And as a matter of fact, it is good for you - if you don't take too many calories. So what is this "vegetables, fruits, and grains" stuff all about? The greatest thing about a vegetarian diet is that you can"t eat enough of it can make you fat."

Bag refers to TPN (total parenteral nutrition) bags. Of course, a normal person with intestines will also need fiber, which is the main argument as to why apples are more nutritious that Hostess Twinkies even though Twinkies provide more nutrients as a whole.

Surprisingly, the final statement of this lecture to CalTech students mimics my opinion to a large extent.

Marc, some of his opinions coincide with yours but they also deviate.


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Fidgeting, means I have a difficult time staying in one place. I pace. I walk around when I write and type when I come up with the sentence to write. I read while pacing. I find it difficult sitting for two hours watching a movie. I go up and down stairs about 10 times a day. I do not work at a desk unless I am reviewing a paper or writing a paper (usually standing up). I work standing up. You can complain that I am not using all of my muscles. But why would this not be nitpicking? I would love to use public transportation. I have the stress of rush hour commutes, but public transportation here falls off considerably at 6:00 pm and taking a bus with three transfers through rush hour traffic for 30 miles takes about 2.5 hrs. I looked this up. If I could get done routinely by 6 pm I could take a train. But that is not the case.

The idea is any doctor wants your heart to race a bit each day.  Doing some mild exercising in the beginning like a power walk may help, or walking up and down the stairs.  Or taking a walk with a significant other.  It's not your skeletal muscles necessarily that needs the workout.  It's your heart and blood vessels.  Skeletal muscles are a nice secondary effect, which are the same organs that could also aid in sugar control when needed.

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I am not supporting my lifestyle. But I have not had a diseased life. I have been blessed in that regard.

That's great.  BUT, your lifestyle carries risks.  It accumulates on you day after day, until you become symptomatic.

I realize the risk. But I would suggest that making me worry about it is worse than the cure. As a curiosity, I remember news articles that your life span generally follows how many heartbeats that you have. Why speed up your death by increasing your heart beat frequency?

"Mi tío es enfermo, pero la carretera es verde!" - old Chilean saying

Offline orthonorm

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #178 on: June 28, 2013, 03:20:25 AM »
Hey Opus, I think we once discussed your "diet" (I hate this word). But you know it or something like it has / is being studied and touted for many under various names:"Warrior Diet", "Fast Five", etc.

What is strange to me is that most folks who respond well to such plans (lose weight and not go crazy) tend to be people who do struggle with weight loss. Folks like you are me in this case, tend to get rather jittery. I wish I could do this, as I hate eating so much all the time. Fasting periods are nice cause they give me a reason to not eat, but boy did the weight fall off and not in a good way.

Anyhoo.

I know I say it in somewhat jest now and then, but you are quite a remarkable fellow and I can't imagine how wonderful it must be for those lives you touch!



Offline orthonorm

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Re: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease
« Reply #179 on: June 28, 2013, 03:22:51 AM »
Werd to the notion of a pizza being a great food.

Especially how Opus does it.

This thread proves my notion that nearly all Americans now suffer from eating disorders.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 03:23:07 AM by orthonorm »