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Author Topic: AMA Labels Obesity a Disease  (Read 4212 times) Average Rating: 0
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Justin Kissel
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« on: June 20, 2013, 02:00:56 AM »

Medical circles digest the upshot of obesity classification

Obesity: It's not a failure of willpower anymore.

The American Medical Association's decision Tuesday to officially label obesity as a disease at its annual meeting in Chicago is raising hopes among dieticians, bariatric surgeons and internists prescribing weight loss drugs that more of their services will be covered by health insurance...
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« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2013, 02:01:10 AM »

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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2013, 02:37:33 AM »

 I want to laugh but all I can do is Cry
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« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2013, 07:38:38 AM »




She forgot to take her foodacilin....poor victim....if only she didn't go outside without her scarf......

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« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2013, 07:56:20 AM »

That's not fair. Not all overweight people eat like that.

In fact, I believe many are overweight due to lack of activity, instead of overeating.

We sit at work all day, sit on the drive home, sit at our computers in the evening...

We just don't move enough.

I know that is my problem.
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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2013, 08:01:36 AM »

That's not fair. Not all overweight people eat like that.

In fact, I believe many are overweight due to lack of activity, instead of overeating.

We sit at work all day, sit on the drive home, sit at our computers in the evening...

We just don't move enough.

I know that is my problem.
You are correct, of course. Either way, its not a disease. Whether by eating or inaction, its the fat person's fault (except in some cases like glandular stuff, etc) and its the fat person's job to fix it.

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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2013, 08:49:59 AM »

Crap. Now I'm diseased.
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« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2013, 08:51:05 AM »

That's not fair. Not all overweight people eat like that.

In fact, I believe many are overweight due to lack of activity, instead of overeating.

We sit at work all day, sit on the drive home, sit at our computers in the evening...

We just don't move enough.

I know that is my problem.

It's good to see at least one Orthodox Christian post with compassion rather than cynical snark. Sometimes the internet leads me to the edge of despair thinking that the Church is a fraud, full of judgmental, opinionated reactionaries. Then Sunday rolls around, we attend liturgy and all is well again.
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« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2013, 08:59:02 AM »

Crap. Now I'm diseased.

As are we all.  Some of us are just chubbier or thinner than others.
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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2013, 09:05:37 AM »

That's not fair. Not all overweight people eat like that.

In fact, I believe many are overweight due to lack of activity, instead of overeating.

We sit at work all day, sit on the drive home, sit at our computers in the evening...

We just don't move enough.

I know that is my problem.

I think you're spot on about that.  That's a large part of my "problem", too.  Not only is it what we do not do, but much of what we put in our mouths, especially those really "yummy" snacky things, add to the problem, as it were.

And....for some people, it is most definitely an illness, or rather, an important symptom of a deeper illness, much like alcoholism and other addictions.

(I guess now it's time to hear from the local Food Police.)
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« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2013, 09:40:25 AM »

On the web EVERY ISSUE seems to demand  an ideological spin. It is no wonder the only thing we seem to do in America is spin and spin around and around. That "spinning" clearly has no impact on BMI. (Body mass index.)

I don't have the factual basis to articulate an opinion based on any objective criteria. I do know that denying that obesity is a public health - and an economic - issue is shortsighted. Your health insurance costs (including employer share) and your taxes which support Medicare and Medicaid programs certainly reflect the reality of the problem in the United States. I suspect our non North American friends have noticed our size problems and the size of portions offered in our restaurants.

An objective analysis of the AMA action with pros and cons. http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/06/19/193440570/ama-says-its-time-to-call-obesity-a-disease

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« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2013, 09:46:55 AM »

According to the BMI this guy is obese:



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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2013, 09:47:13 AM »

So obesity is a disease?  Translation:  nothing is your own damned fault.
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« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2013, 09:48:23 AM »

According to the BMI this guy is obese:




BMI is a joke. The doctor to whom I go cant stand it because my insurance demands BMI stuff and it, like you stated above, is WAY too simplistic.

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« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2013, 09:53:50 AM »

So obesity is a disease?  Translation:  nothing is your own damned fault.

Well...there is that.  Wink
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« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2013, 10:04:54 AM »

Can we make "work" as a disease also? Thanks
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« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2013, 10:07:03 AM »

Can we make "work" laziness as a disease also? Thanks

Fixed it.
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« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2013, 10:07:59 AM »

Crap. Now I'm diseased.
My sentiments precisely. Sad

Now that school is out, I should dedicate myself to getting to a healthier weight.
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« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2013, 10:32:13 AM »

Can we make "work" laziness as a disease also? Thanks

Fixed it.
Jeff you put too much work into striking that out, italisczing, and coloring it.
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« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2013, 10:34:04 AM »

Can we make "work" laziness as a disease also? Thanks

Fixed it.
Jeff you put too much work into striking that out, italisczing, and coloring it.

I must be diseased, Alex.  But.....it was quite enjoyable while it lasted.
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« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2013, 10:53:44 AM »

Crap. Now I'm diseased.
My sentiments precisely. Sad

Now that school is out, I should dedicate myself to getting to a healthier weight.

I think Liza's point about activity is spot on.  Last year I lost a lot of weight.  The Lord says 'seek and ye shall find', and apparently this year I have been doing a lot of weight seeking...  I am not going to lie, my diet has gotten less disciplined, but really isn't that horrifying.  The main thing is, I do a lot less walking and biking as I did last year.  Energy goes in, only some of it goes out unless you actively utilize it.
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« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2013, 01:51:09 PM »

Actually Jeff I know people who work too much that it has affected their physical and mental health.

So yeah its a disease
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« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2013, 02:07:02 PM »

Up until the end of World War Two, obesity was considered a manifestation of Malnutrition. That's a fact.

German scientists did the best work on figuring out what makes people fat but it was all lost due to the war. Rocket Scientists were protected because we needed them. Nutrition specialists, not so much.

Here is what the best science says today. Obesity MAKES you lazy and glutonus, not the other way around. We were strongly directly by the Diet Dictocrats to eat low fat high carb diets that spike insulin. Insulin is what makes your body hold fat. THEN people cant control their appetites .

There is a new book coming out, it may already be available by Denise Minger called : "Death by Food Pyramid" that gives the history of all this. She also has some great You Tubes if you search on her name.
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« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2013, 02:12:42 PM »

"Death by Food Pyrimid" will be avialable in November
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« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2013, 02:12:57 PM »

Actually Jeff I know people who work too much that it has affected their physical and mental health.

So yeah its a disease

Work is an activity, not a condition, Alex. Too much of a good thing can be a bad thing.  You know, work vs. overwork. To consider work, per se, as a disease, is just, well.....plain stupid.  If you ate 25 hot dogs and 5 lbs. of Bush's Baked Beans daily and ended up with physical and mental symptoms, would you then classify eating as a disease?  If you walked 30-40 miles a day (without building up to that, over time, and conditioning yourself) and developed physical and mental health problems as a result, would you classify walking as a disease?  Get my drift?
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« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2013, 03:02:02 PM »

Crap. Now I'm diseased.
My sentiments precisely. Sad

Now that school is out, I should dedicate myself to getting to a healthier weight.

Do your reading list while running on the treadmill. Cheesy
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« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2013, 03:04:48 PM »

Crap. Now I'm diseased.
My sentiments precisely. Sad

Now that school is out, I should dedicate myself to getting to a healthier weight.

Do your reading list while running on the treadmill. Cheesy

And make sure you take something for motion sickness. Grin

(I love the "shoulds" we give ourselves  Wink.  "Should" usually translates as "it would be a good idea but it probably doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of ever happening.")
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« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2013, 03:14:11 PM »

Exercise doesn't help with weight loss all that much. As you expend energy you get hungry. More exercise, more eating.

Just like when people used to take a walk before a big meal to "Work up an appetite".
Of course building muscle mass will help some but most results will come from eating properly not from working out.
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« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2013, 05:08:57 PM »

Exercise doesn't help with weight loss all that much. As you expend energy you get hungry. More exercise, more eating.

Just like when people used to take a walk before a big meal to "Work up an appetite".
Of course building muscle mass will help some but most results will come from eating properly not from working out.

But working out will also increase your body's metabolism.  It's a both...and not an either...or.
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« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2013, 05:35:15 PM »

It's probably genetics and physical activity or lack of it,  mostly.  I eat and drink a lot without ever checking calorie labels-which I can barely make any sense of anyways- but my objective living conditions  Wink force me to do lots of moving, pulling, lifting etc.  I also bike a good deal. Go to work or pretty much anywhere. Never set foot in a gym.
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« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2013, 05:42:29 PM »

Exercise doesn't help with weight loss all that much. As you expend energy you get hungry. More exercise, more eating.


Walking, running and biking help a lot. I know from myself. In my case i followed three simple rules:

1. No eating after 20.00 o'clock.
2. No chips and chocolate.
3. Walking

It helped a lot.

Obesity is classified as a disease in my country long time ago.
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« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2013, 05:47:42 PM »

I wish the article had included how the AMA defines disease. It seems impossible to have an opinion one way or the other without knowing that.
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« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2013, 06:08:00 PM »

Exercise doesn't help with weight loss all that much. As you expend energy you get hungry. More exercise, more eating.

Just like when people used to take a walk before a big meal to "Work up an appetite".
Of course building muscle mass will help some but most results will come from eating properly not from working out.

But working out will also increase your body's metabolism.  It's a both...and not an either...or.

Studies have shown that exercise is not particularly effective for weight loss.

Interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQuB9pcptk0

Here is a good article about it:

http://www.dietdoctor.com/does-exercise-promote-weight-loss
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« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2013, 06:31:39 PM »

Yes, the great scientific authority of You Tube.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2013, 09:03:25 PM »

Yes, the great scientific authority of You Tube.  Roll Eyes

Too accessible for you? You can in fact listen to people with great scientific authority there... All you need to do is check their credentials if you have some doubt

 It's a problem for the establishment that us common folk can get good information so easily.
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« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2013, 09:11:02 PM »

The thing about exercise is that it is a rather weak strategy for weight loss. That doesnt mean it is useless, it isnt. But you must clean up you diet first and then add exercise if you still need to. If you are eating a diet that practically demands your body store fat, you have to exercise like a M. F... like it's your full time job to overcome your diet and lose weight. And once you stop or winter sets in and you cant run much, the bad diet puts all the pounds right back.

Exercise makes you stronger. That is a very good thing. You can lift more or pull more or open things easier and run faster and longer. More physical endurance is also good to have for when you are in an emergency. Added to a good diet it does nothing but help but as a mainstay of a weight loss plan without addressing diet first and foremost, it is not that important........... IMHO Smiley 
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« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2013, 09:12:53 PM »

So obesity is a disease?  Translation:  nothing is your own damned fault.

Obesity is not the same as just being a few pounds overweight.

I have known two people in my life who weighed several hundred (by which I mean over 400) pounds.

They did not get that way because they had no willpower. They struggled with obesity from childhood.

They both went to heroic lengths to lose the weight, up to and including surgery - and this was in the days before the "lap band" which, while it may sound easy and fun on those cutesy radio commercials, is still dangerous.

Both of them were able to get the weight off but even after the surgery it took another couple of years, and they're still maintaining with great difficulty.

And one of them lost the use of his legs and is in a wheelchair, due to complications of the surgery.

So yeah, you all just go right ahead and laugh at those stupid funny fat people and tell us how they all just need to stop eating those extra helpings of fries.

Me, I'm not going to laugh because there but for the grace of God ... well, you know the rest. (or at least you should  Roll Eyes )
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« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2013, 09:26:05 PM »

That's not fair. Not all overweight people eat like that.

In fact, I believe many are overweight due to lack of activity, instead of overeating.

We sit at work all day, sit on the drive home, sit at our computers in the evening...

We just don't move enough.

I know that is my problem.
But none of these things make it a disease.
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« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2013, 09:28:42 PM »

So obesity is a disease?  Translation:  nothing is your own damned fault.

Obesity is not the same as just being a few pounds overweight.

I have known two people in my life who weighed several hundred (by which I mean over 400) pounds.

They did not get that way because they had no willpower. They struggled with obesity from childhood.

They both went to heroic lengths to lose the weight, up to and including surgery - and this was in the days before the "lap band" which, while it may sound easy and fun on those cutesy radio commercials, is still dangerous.

Both of them were able to get the weight off but even after the surgery it took another couple of years, and they're still maintaining with great difficulty.

And one of them lost the use of his legs and is in a wheelchair, due to complications of the surgery.

So yeah, you all just go right ahead and laugh at those stupid funny fat people and tell us how they all just need to stop eating those extra helpings of fries.

Me, I'm not going to laugh because there but for the grace of God ... well, you know the rest. (or at least you should  Roll Eyes )


+1
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« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2013, 09:29:49 PM »

I wish the article had included how the AMA defines disease. It seems impossible to have an opinion one way or the other without knowing that.
Having an opinion is a disease.
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« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2013, 09:59:12 PM »

So obesity is a disease?  Translation:  nothing is your own damned fault.

Obesity is not the same as just being a few pounds overweight.

I have known two people in my life who weighed several hundred (by which I mean over 400) pounds.

They did not get that way because they had no willpower. They struggled with obesity from childhood.

They both went to heroic lengths to lose the weight, up to and including surgery - and this was in the days before the "lap band" which, while it may sound easy and fun on those cutesy radio commercials, is still dangerous.

Both of them were able to get the weight off but even after the surgery it took another couple of years, and they're still maintaining with great difficulty.

And one of them lost the use of his legs and is in a wheelchair, due to complications of the surgery.

So yeah, you all just go right ahead and laugh at those stupid funny fat people and tell us how they all just need to stop eating those extra helpings of fries.

Me, I'm not going to laugh because there but for the grace of God ... well, you know the rest. (or at least you should  Roll Eyes )


+1

Some people are pre disposed to store lots of fat on their bodies. It has nothing at all to do with their will power.
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« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2013, 10:15:30 PM »

That's not fair. Not all overweight people eat like that.

In fact, I believe many are overweight due to lack of activity, instead of overeating.

We sit at work all day, sit on the drive home, sit at our computers in the evening...

We just don't move enough.

I know that is my problem.
But none of these things make it a disease.

Here is what does make it a disease. Obesity is fundamentally a hormonal imbalance. That hormone is insulin which is what signals your cells to store fat. Period.

You get this hormone imbalance from eating too many carbohydrates. You can become insulin resistant which means that over time you produce  more and more insulin and get fatter..  Fructose is a carbohydrate that exacerbates insulin resistance. High fructose corn syrup is now shot through the food supply for one example.

It is like smoking cigarettes. Smoking causes lung cancer. Stop smoking and unless you are around asbestos you have significantly cut your chances of ever getting lung cancer. If you stop eating carbohydrates you will not become insulin resistant and you will not store fat on your body and will not ever have the hormone imbalance that expresses itself as obesity.

Smoking  leads to cancer = disease

Eating carbs leads to hormone (insulin) imbalance = disease

Too much fat stored on the body is the outward expression of this imbalance.
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« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2013, 10:18:57 PM »

Posting on the Internet is a disease.
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« Reply #43 on: June 20, 2013, 10:19:50 PM »

So obesity is a disease?  Translation:  nothing is your own damned fault.
Exactly
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« Reply #44 on: June 20, 2013, 10:55:32 PM »

Eating too many carbs = Insulin imbalance = Obesity

People were told to stop eating fat and to eat lots of carbs = Not their fault
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« Reply #45 on: June 20, 2013, 11:00:04 PM »

Eating too many carbs = Insulin imbalance = Obesity

People were told to stop eating fat and to eat lots of carbs = Not their fault

Not that I agree with everything Pollan says, but I think he's right when he says that most traditional diets can be healthy, regardless of what the macronutrient ratios are.
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« Reply #46 on: June 20, 2013, 11:00:48 PM »

Eating too many carbs = Insulin imbalance = Obesity

People were told to stop eating fat and to eat lots of carbs = Not their fault

It is not the carbs, Marc, but the sugar that causes insulin imbalance.

Now that I have given up eating sugar (and processed foods), I have lost weight, and my blood sugar is in better balance. Before I was severely hypoglycemic, so that after eating a meal, my blood sugar would spike to about 180 or more and then drop like rock to 34 where I would faint. Doctor said that I could die when my blood sugar level fell below 45.

Ha, I am also eating more butter and more cheese. That keeps me from getting hunger pains and keeps me from craving sugar and simple carbohydrates.
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« Reply #47 on: June 20, 2013, 11:06:49 PM »

When these folks finally find out if eggs are good or bad for you, then I may take them seriously.
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« Reply #48 on: June 20, 2013, 11:10:22 PM »

That's not fair. Not all overweight people eat like that.

In fact, I believe many are overweight due to lack of activity, instead of overeating.

We sit at work all day, sit on the drive home, sit at our computers in the evening...

We just don't move enough.

I know that is my problem.
You are correct, of course. Either way, its not a disease. Whether by eating or inaction, its the fat person's fault (except in some cases like glandular stuff, etc) and its the fat person's job to fix it.

PP

There are many other factors. And it's not like fixing a car.
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« Reply #49 on: June 20, 2013, 11:11:48 PM »

So obesity is a disease?  Translation:  nothing is your own damned fault.

Idiocy is also a disease.
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« Reply #50 on: June 20, 2013, 11:12:07 PM »

Eating too many carbs = Insulin imbalance = Obesity

People were told to stop eating fat and to eat lots of carbs = Not their fault

It is not the carbs, Marc, but the sugar that causes insulin imbalance.

Now that I have given up eating sugar (and processed foods), I have lost weight, and my blood sugar is in better balance. Before I was severely hypoglycemic, so that after eating a meal, my blood sugar would spike to about 180 or more and then drop like rock to 34 where I would faint. Doctor said that I could die when my blood sugar level fell below 45.

Ha, I am also eating more butter and more cheese. That keeps me from getting hunger pains and keeps me from craving sugar and simple carbohydrates.

Sugar is a carbohydrate. In fact when you eat grains your body quickly converts it into a simple sugar. For example, one slice of whole wheat bread is equal to eating three teaspoons of table sugar.

You are correct sugar is the main culprit, especially high fructose corn syrup which is cheap to make and put into everything.

Foods are either Fat, Protein or Carbohydrate  

Thumbs up on the Butter !
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« Reply #51 on: June 20, 2013, 11:14:09 PM »

When these folks finally find out if eggs are good or bad for you, then I may take them seriously.

Eggs are good, very good

Next question?
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« Reply #52 on: June 20, 2013, 11:16:42 PM »

...
So yeah, you all just go right ahead and laugh at those stupid funny fat people and tell us how they all just need to stop eating those extra helpings of fries.

Me, I'm not going to laugh because there but for the grace of God ... well, you know the rest. (or at least you should  Roll Eyes )...

If my posts came across that way, I apologize.
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« Reply #53 on: June 20, 2013, 11:20:30 PM »

...
So yeah, you all just go right ahead and laugh at those stupid funny fat people and tell us how they all just need to stop eating those extra helpings of fries.

Me, I'm not going to laugh because there but for the grace of God ... well, you know the rest. (or at least you should  Roll Eyes )...

If my posts came across that way, I apologize.

Not you personally, Asteriktos, but I'll gladly accept your apology anyway, as I can always use 'em!  Grin
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« Reply #54 on: June 20, 2013, 11:26:05 PM »

When these folks finally find out if eggs are good or bad for you, then I may take them seriously.

Eggs are good, very good

Next question?
So is cheesecake
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« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2013, 11:31:53 PM »

When these folks finally find out if eggs are good or bad for you, then I may take them seriously.

Eggs are good, very good

Next question?
So is cheesecake

Cheese is good especially fattier cheeses and raw cheese more so

Cheese cake is full of sugar, so it's not good for you and it has a crust made from flour (grains) also not good.

See? This is easy !
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« Reply #56 on: June 20, 2013, 11:40:09 PM »

When these folks finally find out if eggs are good or bad for you, then I may take them seriously.

Eggs are good, very good

Next question?
So is cheesecake

Cheese is good especially fattier cheeses and raw cheese more so

Cheese cake is full of sugar, so it's not good for you and it has a crust made from flour (grains) also not good.

See? This is easy !
You were talking about flavor, yes?

Eggs go back and forth every other year since I was a child.  They categorize food differently every few years.  Vegetables become fruits, and so on.  They say stuff in an attempt to remain relevant.  I eat eggs regardless of what they say.  Cheesecake in moderation.  I'm not fat and when I was a little heavy for me at 204, exercise solved that problem.  No disease.

Some folks suffer from conditions which make them fat and they can't help it, but the fatness isn't a disease, it's the result of their condition.  Now, if bleeding is a disease being fat can be too, but like being fat, something else caused it. 
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« Reply #57 on: June 20, 2013, 11:49:15 PM »

When these folks finally find out if eggs are good or bad for you, then I may take them seriously.

Eggs are good, very good

Next question?
So is cheesecake

Cheese is good especially fattier cheeses and raw cheese more so

Cheese cake is full of sugar, so it's not good for you and it has a crust made from flour (grains) also not good.

See? This is easy !
You were talking about flavor, yes?

Eggs go back and forth every other year since I was a child.  They categorize food differently every few years.  Vegetables become fruits, and so on.  They say stuff in an attempt to remain relevant.  I eat eggs regardless of what they say.  Cheesecake in moderation.  I'm not fat and when I was a little heavy for me at 204, exercise solved that problem.  No disease.

Some folks suffer from conditions which make them fat and they can't help it, but the fatness isn't a disease, it's the result of their condition.  Now, if bleeding is a disease being fat can be too, but like being fat, something else caused it.  

Sorta right. Something else caused the obesity. That cause is insulin imbalance. People were told to eat the very things that cause this imbalance. People did what they were told and they got obese as a result. So youre right, the excess body fat is the outward manifestation of this condition.
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« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2013, 12:27:13 AM »

I wish the article had included how the AMA defines disease. It seems impossible to have an opinion one way or the other without knowing that.

This is the question that needs an answer before posting this way or that ZealousZeal. We need to listen to Alpacas more often.
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« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2013, 12:48:28 AM »

When these folks finally find out if eggs are good or bad for you, then I may take them seriously.

Eggs are good, very good

Next question?
So is cheesecake

Cheese is good especially fattier cheeses and raw cheese more so

Cheese cake is full of sugar, so it's not good for you and it has a crust made from flour (grains) also not good.

See? This is easy !
You were talking about flavor, yes?

Eggs go back and forth every other year since I was a child.  They categorize food differently every few years.  Vegetables become fruits, and so on.  They say stuff in an attempt to remain relevant.  I eat eggs regardless of what they say.  Cheesecake in moderation.  I'm not fat and when I was a little heavy for me at 204, exercise solved that problem.  No disease.

Some folks suffer from conditions which make them fat and they can't help it, but the fatness isn't a disease, it's the result of their condition.  Now, if bleeding is a disease being fat can be too, but like being fat, something else caused it. 

If you eat two dozen eggs fried in bacon grease then go play world of warcraft for 12 hours you might have a problem.

If you eat a couple eggs and then move around a bit they are very healthy.
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« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2013, 12:53:47 AM »

Exercise doesn't help with weight loss all that much. As you expend energy you get hungry. More exercise, more eating.

Just like when people used to take a walk before a big meal to "Work up an appetite".
Of course building muscle mass will help some but most results will come from eating properly not from working out.

This particular post irks me. It is totally anecdotal from a single source (you) and metabolically makes little sense.  You should elaborate. In doing so, include expressions like "I am too exhausted to eat". A feeling that often occurs to me.

I cannot comment much on this thread because I have never, ever, had a weight problem. I am right now the same weight as when I was a freshman in high school (about 130 and I have ranged between 125-140, the low end during lent). I never paid attention to carbs, fat, fast food, etc. Is it solely genetic? Doubtful. Is it genetic at all? My guess is that it would be a minor contributor at most. Is it lifestyle? I would guess that this is the major contributor. Does a low carb diet make sense. Yes, but it is clear to me that this was never the problem.
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« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2013, 12:55:29 AM »

When these folks finally find out if eggs are good or bad for you, then I may take them seriously.

Eggs are good, very good

Next question?
So is cheesecake

Cheese is good especially fattier cheeses and raw cheese more so

Cheese cake is full of sugar, so it's not good for you and it has a crust made from flour (grains) also not good.

See? This is easy !
You were talking about flavor, yes?

Eggs go back and forth every other year since I was a child.  They categorize food differently every few years.  Vegetables become fruits, and so on.  They say stuff in an attempt to remain relevant.  I eat eggs regardless of what they say.  Cheesecake in moderation.  I'm not fat and when I was a little heavy for me at 204, exercise solved that problem.  No disease.

Some folks suffer from conditions which make them fat and they can't help it, but the fatness isn't a disease, it's the result of their condition.  Now, if bleeding is a disease being fat can be too, but like being fat, something else caused it. 

If you eat two dozen eggs fried in bacon grease then go play world of warcraft for 12 hours you might have a problem.

If you eat a couple eggs and then move around a bit they are very healthy.

Stop this Vamrat. I do not want to agree with you right now. Maybe tomorrow.
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« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2013, 09:09:32 AM »

When these folks finally find out if eggs are good or bad for you, then I may take them seriously.

Eggs are good, very good

Next question?
So is cheesecake

Cheese is good especially fattier cheeses and raw cheese more so

Cheese cake is full of sugar, so it's not good for you and it has a crust made from flour (grains) also not good.

See? This is easy !
You were talking about flavor, yes?

Eggs go back and forth every other year since I was a child.  They categorize food differently every few years.  Vegetables become fruits, and so on.  They say stuff in an attempt to remain relevant.  I eat eggs regardless of what they say.  Cheesecake in moderation.  I'm not fat and when I was a little heavy for me at 204, exercise solved that problem.  No disease.

Some folks suffer from conditions which make them fat and they can't help it, but the fatness isn't a disease, it's the result of their condition.  Now, if bleeding is a disease being fat can be too, but like being fat, something else caused it. 

If you eat two dozen eggs fried in bacon grease then go play world of warcraft for 12 hours you might have a problem.

If you eat a couple eggs and then move around a bit they are very healthy.

Stop this Vamrat. I do not want to agree with you right now. Maybe tomorrow.

What's wrong with agreeing with the wizened Vamrat?  Are you a secret Orthonormite?   Tongue
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« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2013, 10:13:11 AM »

I wish the article had included how the AMA defines disease. It seems impossible to have an opinion one way or the other without knowing that.

Now, there's a can of worms!  Doctors (the vast majority of whom do NOT belong to the AMA, btw) and opinions and definitions.  Grin Grin
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« Reply #64 on: June 21, 2013, 10:14:56 AM »

So obesity is a disease?  Translation:  nothing is your own damned fault.

Idiocy is also a disease.

Usually incurable.  It's also an activity, like work.  That aspect of it, however, is curable (well, at least treatable.)
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« Reply #65 on: June 21, 2013, 11:15:07 AM »

I wish the article had included how the AMA defines disease. It seems impossible to have an opinion one way or the other without knowing that.

This is the question that needs an answer before posting this way or that ZealousZeal. We need to listen to Alpacas more often.

Would you not lable other hormone imbalances as diseases? If you are a female and have a hormonal imbalance due to menopause isnt that a disease?
If you have an over active thyroid or underactive, isnt that a disease? How about adrenal exhaustion or type 1 diabetes.

Obesity is due to metabolic syndrome ( too much insulin being pumped into your system). You develp this condition from eating foods that the f ing Government told you were healthy and that you should eat lots of. It is also exacerbated by suger which the food industry has pumped into all kinds of foods when they took out the fat.

So Obesity is the main symptom of a metabolic disorder caused by a hormonal imbalance..   

But people have been led to think obesity is due to eating too much because of lack of will power.. It's about time that little nugget got put to rest.

Its not really how much you eat but what you eat.. Here is an article about a man who did an experiment on himself. He ate 5,800 calories for one month of Low Carb, High Fat foods and didnt really gain weight, only 3.5 pounds. But if you did the conventional math he should have gained much much more.. On the other hand, people who ate junk food as an experiment ( "Super Size Me" ) gain lots of weight..

http://www.dietdoctor.com/what-happens-if-you-eat-5800-calories-daily-on-an-lchf-diet

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« Reply #66 on: June 21, 2013, 12:38:46 PM »

Exercise doesn't help with weight loss all that much. As you expend energy you get hungry. More exercise, more eating.

Just like when people used to take a walk before a big meal to "Work up an appetite".
Of course building muscle mass will help some but most results will come from eating properly not from working out.

This particular post irks me. It is totally anecdotal from a single source (you) and metabolically makes little sense.  You should elaborate. In doing so, include expressions like "I am too exhausted to eat". A feeling that often occurs to me.

I cannot comment much on this thread because I have never, ever, had a weight problem. I am right now the same weight as when I was a freshman in high school (about 130 and I have ranged between 125-140, the low end during lent). I never paid attention to carbs, fat, fast food, etc. Is it solely genetic? Doubtful. Is it genetic at all? My guess is that it would be a minor contributor at most. Is it lifestyle? I would guess that this is the major contributor. Does a low carb diet make sense. Yes, but it is clear to me that this was never the problem.

Actually there is a lot of back up for the observation that the more you exercise the hungrier you become. I will look for references when I am not at work and post for you.

As we said before, there is a big genetic component to body shape and size and where you deposit fat. Women on hips, men on the belly for one simple example. If you parents are thick and stocky, you are predisposed to that as well.

 If you are lean looking and dont watch what you eat you may become what they call "Skinny-Fat".. You still develop all the bad health markers but remain lean..

For example, if you eat lots of carbs you may still exacerbate  low grade inflammation which is a main cause of heart disease. If you still eat carbs and sugar you still increase your odds of getting cancer. Cancer cells love sugar, but you still are lean looking.

The marathon runner Jim Fixx is the most famous example of a person who was very very lean, got tons of exercise but ate a high carb diet and dropped dead of a massive coronary. He was "Skinny-Fat"  R.I.P.



 
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« Reply #67 on: June 21, 2013, 09:13:06 PM »

From Mayo Clinic Blog:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/exercise-and-hunger/MY02431

 It appears that some people are more likely than others to compensate for the energy burned during exercise. In other words, some people's bodies are more geared toward maintaining a calorie balance. If they burn energy during exercise, they want to eat to replace it.

While it has long been thought that exercise diminishes appetite, this is not a universal truth. Some individuals find that hard exercise can increase their appetite. Scientists have confirmed that some people have an increased level of appetite hormones that drives eating after exercise.
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« Reply #68 on: June 21, 2013, 11:23:49 PM »

Reply 1 for post 1:

I wish the article had included how the AMA defines disease. It seems impossible to have an opinion one way or the other without knowing that.

This is the question that needs an answer before posting this way or that ZealousZeal. We need to listen to Alpacas more often.

Would you not lable other hormone imbalances as diseases? If you are a female and have a hormonal imbalance due to menopause isnt that a disease?
If you have an over active thyroid or underactive, isnt that a disease? How about adrenal exhaustion or type 1 diabetes.

Yes I would label them as diseases. However, from what I understand obesity rates are rising. Therefore the cause is primarily environmental and not genetic. In terms of genetics, it would make sense that Polynesians and Alaskan Native Americans evolved to preserve their fat content, but it makes less sense for Europeans during the same time span. Even if you put up this argument, the laws of physics rules.

I am going to continue to post, but I am not particularly interested in this topic. I am just giving my viewpoint which should allow you to discredit me as much as you so desire in order for you to feel good. I think the latter is what makes us healthy. NOT DIET OF ANY SORT. Perhaps more about this later if I prove to be more daring than I think I am.

Obesity is due to metabolic syndrome ( too much insulin being pumped into your system). You develp this condition from eating foods that the f ing Government told you were healthy and that you should eat lots of. It is also exacerbated by suger which the food industry has pumped into all kinds of foods when they took out the fat.

So Obesity is the main symptom of a metabolic disorder caused by a hormonal imbalance..   


Hormonal imbalance is caused by being overweight. Do you disagree with this and would you care to cite references?


But people have been led to think obesity is due to eating too much because of lack of will power.. It's about time that little nugget got put to rest.

Its not really how much you eat but what you eat.. Here is an article about a man who did an experiment on himself. He ate 5,800 calories for one month of Low Carb, High Fat foods and didnt really gain weight, only 3.5 pounds. But if you did the conventional math he should have gained much much more.. On the other hand, people who ate junk food as an experiment ( "Super Size Me" ) gain lots of weight..

http://www.dietdoctor.com/what-happens-if-you-eat-5800-calories-daily-on-an-lchf-diet




It is not lifestyle or will power. Obesity is caused by depression and/or the will to participate in life. (I expect some may hate me for this statement), but if you are sitting or lying down reading you are indulging yourself, you can do it standing up as well with just as much pleasure.

By the way your buff man is so full of holes it is not worth commenting on it. My personal example refutes this explicitly. You seem to have automatic responses without reading the posts. More about this in you next post in which you try to confuse the issue.

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« Reply #69 on: June 21, 2013, 11:32:12 PM »

How you lose weight: make your caloric output higher than your caloric intake.

How you gain weight: make your caloric intake higher than your caloric output.
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« Reply #70 on: June 21, 2013, 11:40:29 PM »

Exercise doesn't help with weight loss all that much. As you expend energy you get hungry. More exercise, more eating.

Just like when people used to take a walk before a big meal to "Work up an appetite".
Of course building muscle mass will help some but most results will come from eating properly not from working out.

This particular post irks me. It is totally anecdotal from a single source (you) and metabolically makes little sense.  You should elaborate. In doing so, include expressions like "I am too exhausted to eat". A feeling that often occurs to me.

I cannot comment much on this thread because I have never, ever, had a weight problem. I am right now the same weight as when I was a freshman in high school (about 130 and I have ranged between 125-140, the low end during lent). I never paid attention to carbs, fat, fast food, etc. Is it solely genetic? Doubtful. Is it genetic at all? My guess is that it would be a minor contributor at most. Is it lifestyle? I would guess that this is the major contributor. Does a low carb diet make sense. Yes, but it is clear to me that this was never the problem.

Actually there is a lot of back up for the observation that the more you exercise the hungrier you become. I will look for references when I am not at work and post for you.

As we said before, there is a big genetic component to body shape and size and where you deposit fat. Women on hips, men on the belly for one simple example. If you parents are thick and stocky, you are predisposed to that as well.

 If you are lean looking and dont watch what you eat you may become what they call "Skinny-Fat".. You still develop all the bad health markers but remain lean..

For example, if you eat lots of carbs you may still exacerbate  low grade inflammation which is a main cause of heart disease. If you still eat carbs and sugar you still increase your odds of getting cancer. Cancer cells love sugar, but you still are lean looking.

The marathon runner Jim Fixx is the most famous example of a person who was very very lean, got tons of exercise but ate a high carb diet and dropped dead of a massive coronary. He was "Skinny-Fat"  R.I.P.



 


This is crap Marc and you should know it. "Skinny-Fat" my foot. What is the lifespan of women in the United States? We know that many do not cook these days, but from my experience they all bake cookies, cakes and pies and they personally eat them. It is an American tradition.

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« Reply #71 on: June 21, 2013, 11:42:52 PM »

Reply 1 for post 1:

I wish the article had included how the AMA defines disease. It seems impossible to have an opinion one way or the other without knowing that.

This is the question that needs an answer before posting this way or that ZealousZeal. We need to listen to Alpacas more often.

Would you not lable other hormone imbalances as diseases? If you are a female and have a hormonal imbalance due to menopause isnt that a disease?
If you have an over active thyroid or underactive, isnt that a disease? How about adrenal exhaustion or type 1 diabetes.

Yes I would label them as diseases. However, from what I understand obesity rates are rising. Therefore the cause is primarily environmental and not genetic. In terms of genetics, it would make sense that Polynesians and Alaskan Native Americans evolved to preserve their fat content, but it makes less sense for Europeans during the same time span. Even if you put up this argument, the laws of physics rules.

I am going to continue to post, but I am not particularly interested in this topic. I am just giving my viewpoint which should allow you to discredit me as much as you so desire in order for you to feel good. I think the latter is what makes us healthy. NOT DIET OF ANY SORT. Perhaps more about this later if I prove to be more daring than I think I am.

Obesity is due to metabolic syndrome ( too much insulin being pumped into your system). You develp this condition from eating foods that the f ing Government told you were healthy and that you should eat lots of. It is also exacerbated by suger which the food industry has pumped into all kinds of foods when they took out the fat.

So Obesity is the main symptom of a metabolic disorder caused by a hormonal imbalance..  


Hormonal imbalance is caused by being overweight. Do you disagree with this and would you care to cite references?


But people have been led to think obesity is due to eating too much because of lack of will power.. It's about time that little nugget got put to rest.

Its not really how much you eat but what you eat.. Here is an article about a man who did an experiment on himself. He ate 5,800 calories for one month of Low Carb, High Fat foods and didnt really gain weight, only 3.5 pounds. But if you did the conventional math he should have gained much much more.. On the other hand, people who ate junk food as an experiment ( "Super Size Me" ) gain lots of weight..

http://www.dietdoctor.com/what-happens-if-you-eat-5800-calories-daily-on-an-lchf-diet




It is not lifestyle or will power. Obesity is caused by depression and/or the will to participate in life. (I expect some may hate me for this statement), but if you are sitting or lying down reading you are indulging yourself, you can do it standing up as well with just as much pleasure.

By the way your buff man is so full of holes it is not worth commenting on it. My personal example refutes this explicitly. You seem to have automatic responses without reading the posts. More about this in you next post in which you try to confuse the issue.



Yes I would label them as diseases. However, from what I understand obesity rates are rising. Therefore the cause is primarily environmental and not genetic. In terms of genetics, it would make sense that Polynesians and Alaskan Native Americans evolved to preserve their fat content, but it makes less sense for Europeans during the same time span. Even if you put up this argument, the laws of physics rules.


We have evolved over a span of 2 million years. Eskimo's are not the only people who have bodies designed to live a hunter gatherer life. We all have basically the same genetic make up as our Paleolithic ancestors. Agriculture has only been around for 10,000 years which is not long enough for significant evolutionary changes.


I am going to continue to post, but I am not particularly interested in this topic. I am just giving my viewpoint which should allow you to discredit me as much as you so desire in order for you to feel good. I think the latter is what makes us healthy. NOT DIET OF ANY SORT. Perhaps more about this later if I prove to be more daring than I think I am.

What in the world are you talking about? Just stick to the topic and give your options and evidence and all will be fine.  

It is not lifestyle or will power. Obesity is caused by depression and/or the will to participate in life.

Obesity is caused by too much insulin directing your body to hold on to fat. It has nothing to do with depression or sloth or inactivity or even eating too many calories.

Here, spend an hour:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpavkD7ot8I
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 11:44:02 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #72 on: June 21, 2013, 11:45:15 PM »

How you lose weight: make your caloric output higher than your caloric intake.

How you gain weight: make your caloric intake higher than your caloric output.

Thanks William. This is not the issue apparently. The issue is whether a human being can do this.

Much of this is psychological rather that physical, unfortunately.

You get out of this syndrome by not fearing death. I hope to get to this point while I still have energy.
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« Reply #73 on: June 21, 2013, 11:46:45 PM »

Exercise doesn't help with weight loss all that much. As you expend energy you get hungry. More exercise, more eating.

Just like when people used to take a walk before a big meal to "Work up an appetite".
Of course building muscle mass will help some but most results will come from eating properly not from working out.

This particular post irks me. It is totally anecdotal from a single source (you) and metabolically makes little sense.  You should elaborate. In doing so, include expressions like "I am too exhausted to eat". A feeling that often occurs to me.

I cannot comment much on this thread because I have never, ever, had a weight problem. I am right now the same weight as when I was a freshman in high school (about 130 and I have ranged between 125-140, the low end during lent). I never paid attention to carbs, fat, fast food, etc. Is it solely genetic? Doubtful. Is it genetic at all? My guess is that it would be a minor contributor at most. Is it lifestyle? I would guess that this is the major contributor. Does a low carb diet make sense. Yes, but it is clear to me that this was never the problem.

Actually there is a lot of back up for the observation that the more you exercise the hungrier you become. I will look for references when I am not at work and post for you.

As we said before, there is a big genetic component to body shape and size and where you deposit fat. Women on hips, men on the belly for one simple example. If you parents are thick and stocky, you are predisposed to that as well.

 If you are lean looking and dont watch what you eat you may become what they call "Skinny-Fat".. You still develop all the bad health markers but remain lean..

For example, if you eat lots of carbs you may still exacerbate  low grade inflammation which is a main cause of heart disease. If you still eat carbs and sugar you still increase your odds of getting cancer. Cancer cells love sugar, but you still are lean looking.

The marathon runner Jim Fixx is the most famous example of a person who was very very lean, got tons of exercise but ate a high carb diet and dropped dead of a massive coronary. He was "Skinny-Fat"  R.I.P.



 


This is crap Marc and you should know it. "Skinny-Fat" my foot. What is the lifespan of women in the United States? We know that many do not cook these days, but from my experience they all bake cookies, cakes and pies and they personally eat them. It is an American tradition.



Life spans of men and women are getting much closer. Women who have high cholesterol live the longest.. Go figure
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« Reply #74 on: June 21, 2013, 11:47:49 PM »

Nothing brings out the self-righteousness more than this topic.
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« Reply #75 on: June 21, 2013, 11:48:25 PM »

How you lose weight: make your caloric output higher than your caloric intake.

How you gain weight: make your caloric intake higher than your caloric output.

So goes the myth.
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« Reply #76 on: June 21, 2013, 11:51:04 PM »

Reply 1 for post 1:

I wish the article had included how the AMA defines disease. It seems impossible to have an opinion one way or the other without knowing that.

This is the question that needs an answer before posting this way or that ZealousZeal. We need to listen to Alpacas more often.

Would you not lable other hormone imbalances as diseases? If you are a female and have a hormonal imbalance due to menopause isnt that a disease?
If you have an over active thyroid or underactive, isnt that a disease? How about adrenal exhaustion or type 1 diabetes.

Yes I would label them as diseases. However, from what I understand obesity rates are rising. Therefore the cause is primarily environmental and not genetic. In terms of genetics, it would make sense that Polynesians and Alaskan Native Americans evolved to preserve their fat content, but it makes less sense for Europeans during the same time span. Even if you put up this argument, the laws of physics rules.

I am going to continue to post, but I am not particularly interested in this topic. I am just giving my viewpoint which should allow you to discredit me as much as you so desire in order for you to feel good. I think the latter is what makes us healthy. NOT DIET OF ANY SORT. Perhaps more about this later if I prove to be more daring than I think I am.

Obesity is due to metabolic syndrome ( too much insulin being pumped into your system). You develp this condition from eating foods that the f ing Government told you were healthy and that you should eat lots of. It is also exacerbated by suger which the food industry has pumped into all kinds of foods when they took out the fat.

So Obesity is the main symptom of a metabolic disorder caused by a hormonal imbalance..  


Hormonal imbalance is caused by being overweight. Do you disagree with this and would you care to cite references?


But people have been led to think obesity is due to eating too much because of lack of will power.. It's about time that little nugget got put to rest.

Its not really how much you eat but what you eat.. Here is an article about a man who did an experiment on himself. He ate 5,800 calories for one month of Low Carb, High Fat foods and didnt really gain weight, only 3.5 pounds. But if you did the conventional math he should have gained much much more.. On the other hand, people who ate junk food as an experiment ( "Super Size Me" ) gain lots of weight..

http://www.dietdoctor.com/what-happens-if-you-eat-5800-calories-daily-on-an-lchf-diet




It is not lifestyle or will power. Obesity is caused by depression and/or the will to participate in life. (I expect some may hate me for this statement), but if you are sitting or lying down reading you are indulging yourself, you can do it standing up as well with just as much pleasure.

By the way your buff man is so full of holes it is not worth commenting on it. My personal example refutes this explicitly. You seem to have automatic responses without reading the posts. More about this in you next post in which you try to confuse the issue.



Yes I would label them as diseases. However, from what I understand obesity rates are rising. Therefore the cause is primarily environmental and not genetic. In terms of genetics, it would make sense that Polynesians and Alaskan Native Americans evolved to preserve their fat content, but it makes less sense for Europeans during the same time span. Even if you put up this argument, the laws of physics rules.


We have evolved over a span of 2 million years. Eskimo's are not the only people who have bodies designed to live a hunter gatherer life. We all have basically the same genetic make up as our Paleolithic ancestors. Agriculture has only been around for 10,000 years which is not long enough for significant evolutionary changes.


I am going to continue to post, but I am not particularly interested in this topic. I am just giving my viewpoint which should allow you to discredit me as much as you so desire in order for you to feel good. I think the latter is what makes us healthy. NOT DIET OF ANY SORT. Perhaps more about this later if I prove to be more daring than I think I am.

What in the world are you talking about? Just stick to the topic and give your options and evidence and all will be fine.  

It is not lifestyle or will power. Obesity is caused by depression and/or the will to participate in life.

Obesity is caused by too much insulin directing your body to hold on to fat. It has nothing to do with depression or sloth or inactivity or even eating too many calories.

Here, spend an hour:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpavkD7ot8I

Marc, I am not going to address your new posts until I address your old posts. That is just the way I am. I can only grapple with one thing at a time. If you want a back and forth post between 7-9pm pst, not when I am at work.

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« Reply #77 on: June 22, 2013, 12:07:48 AM »

I wish the article had included how the AMA defines disease. It seems impossible to have an opinion one way or the other without knowing that.

This is the question that needs an answer before posting this way or that ZealousZeal. We need to listen to Alpacas more often.

Just as an example, when you Google "disease definition" you get:

Quote
1. A disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, esp. one that produces specific signs or symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury

2. A particular quality, habit, or disposition regarded as adversely affecting a person or group of people

I think obesity falls under the umbrella of each.

I tried to search around a bit to see if I could find the AMA's definition (since that's the one that counts here) and couldn't find it.
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« Reply #78 on: June 22, 2013, 12:16:17 AM »

Reply 1 for post 1:

I wish the article had included how the AMA defines disease. It seems impossible to have an opinion one way or the other without knowing that.

This is the question that needs an answer before posting this way or that ZealousZeal. We need to listen to Alpacas more often.

Would you not lable other hormone imbalances as diseases? If you are a female and have a hormonal imbalance due to menopause isnt that a disease?
If you have an over active thyroid or underactive, isnt that a disease? How about adrenal exhaustion or type 1 diabetes.

Yes I would label them as diseases. However, from what I understand obesity rates are rising. Therefore the cause is primarily environmental and not genetic. In terms of genetics, it would make sense that Polynesians and Alaskan Native Americans evolved to preserve their fat content, but it makes less sense for Europeans during the same time span. Even if you put up this argument, the laws of physics rules.

I am going to continue to post, but I am not particularly interested in this topic. I am just giving my viewpoint which should allow you to discredit me as much as you so desire in order for you to feel good. I think the latter is what makes us healthy. NOT DIET OF ANY SORT. Perhaps more about this later if I prove to be more daring than I think I am.

Obesity is due to metabolic syndrome ( too much insulin being pumped into your system). You develp this condition from eating foods that the f ing Government told you were healthy and that you should eat lots of. It is also exacerbated by suger which the food industry has pumped into all kinds of foods when they took out the fat.

So Obesity is the main symptom of a metabolic disorder caused by a hormonal imbalance..  


Hormonal imbalance is caused by being overweight. Do you disagree with this and would you care to cite references?


But people have been led to think obesity is due to eating too much because of lack of will power.. It's about time that little nugget got put to rest.

Its not really how much you eat but what you eat.. Here is an article about a man who did an experiment on himself. He ate 5,800 calories for one month of Low Carb, High Fat foods and didnt really gain weight, only 3.5 pounds. But if you did the conventional math he should have gained much much more.. On the other hand, people who ate junk food as an experiment ( "Super Size Me" ) gain lots of weight..

http://www.dietdoctor.com/what-happens-if-you-eat-5800-calories-daily-on-an-lchf-diet




It is not lifestyle or will power. Obesity is caused by depression and/or the will to participate in life. (I expect some may hate me for this statement), but if you are sitting or lying down reading you are indulging yourself, you can do it standing up as well with just as much pleasure.

By the way your buff man is so full of holes it is not worth commenting on it. My personal example refutes this explicitly. You seem to have automatic responses without reading the posts. More about this in you next post in which you try to confuse the issue.



Yes I would label them as diseases. However, from what I understand obesity rates are rising. Therefore the cause is primarily environmental and not genetic. In terms of genetics, it would make sense that Polynesians and Alaskan Native Americans evolved to preserve their fat content, but it makes less sense for Europeans during the same time span. Even if you put up this argument, the laws of physics rules.


We have evolved over a span of 2 million years. Eskimo's are not the only people who have bodies designed to live a hunter gatherer life. We all have basically the same genetic make up as our Paleolithic ancestors. Agriculture has only been around for 10,000 years which is not long enough for significant evolutionary changes.


I am going to continue to post, but I am not particularly interested in this topic. I am just giving my viewpoint which should allow you to discredit me as much as you so desire in order for you to feel good. I think the latter is what makes us healthy. NOT DIET OF ANY SORT. Perhaps more about this later if I prove to be more daring than I think I am.

What in the world are you talking about? Just stick to the topic and give your options and evidence and all will be fine.  

It is not lifestyle or will power. Obesity is caused by depression and/or the will to participate in life.

Obesity is caused by too much insulin directing your body to hold on to fat. It has nothing to do with depression or sloth or inactivity or even eating too many calories.

Here, spend an hour:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpavkD7ot8I

Marc, I am not going to address your new posts until I address your old posts. That is just the way I am. I can only grapple with one thing at a time. If you want a back and forth post between 7-9pm pst, not when I am at work.



I was not aware that this was a debate between me and you Smiley  Post whatever you want whenever you want. I will do the same.
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« Reply #79 on: June 22, 2013, 12:18:36 AM »

How you lose weight: make your caloric output higher than your caloric intake.

How you gain weight: make your caloric intake higher than your caloric output.

So goes the myth.

How's it a myth?
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« Reply #80 on: June 22, 2013, 12:21:56 AM »

From Mayo Clinic Blog:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/exercise-and-hunger/MY02431

 It appears that some people are more likely than others to compensate for the energy burned during exercise. In other words, some people's bodies are more geared toward maintaining a calorie balance. If they burn energy during exercise, they want to eat to replace it.

While it has long been thought that exercise diminishes appetite, this is not a universal truth. Some individuals find that hard exercise can increase their appetite. Scientists have confirmed that some people have an increased level of appetite hormones that drives eating after exercise.

One. I do not believe in exercise. I believe in activity. Exercise is unnecessary.

Like my polynesian example, some people are geared for not wasting potential energy.

Some people may have an increased level of appetite hormones (never heard of these, can you name them specifically so that I can look them up?), but they are readily controllable. This is what fasting is all about.

Human beings are not weak in spirit.

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« Reply #81 on: June 22, 2013, 12:24:56 AM »

How you lose weight: make your caloric output higher than your caloric intake.

How you gain weight: make your caloric intake higher than your caloric output.

So goes the myth.

How's it a myth?

Listen to the lecture I just posted. The question is what regulates fat? What is the cause of your body holding on to fat. The answer is carbohydrate in the diet that causes insulin to get too high NOT how many calories you eat or burn. Insulin is the hormone that regulates body fat

Also read the article I posted  about the guy who ate 5,800 calories a day of low carbohydrate foods but did not gain weight.

Here is the link again. If it is too wonky I can post others.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpavkD7ot8I
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« Reply #82 on: June 22, 2013, 12:42:00 AM »

Some of the people in this thread need to have a bit more sympathy and empathy than saying "they're just being lazy f****".  You're bunch of a******* for thinking this way.

For once, more and more research are finding out things about obesity that makes us a bit more open to treating it in more drastic measures than just "diet and exercise".  And yes...there is such a thing as "skinny fat".  High cholesterol and heart attacks do not just occur in obese people.  Yes, obesity is a risk factor, but not the sole issue.  If one was to choose between a high fat diet and a high carb diet, choose the former.  It is recommended to stay away from 1% and skim milk because those are the ones that actually make you fat quicker, whereas the higher fat content makes it a bit more difficult for the body to absord the lactase.

Anyways, you have to consider also the fact that obesity is a crazy spiral that is difficult to fight.  The fatter you get, the hungrier you become, the more inactive you'll become.  Will power and crazy amounts of hormones make it quite a burden to fight.

Think of homosexuality.  We have become much more careful and sensitive in their situation while showing that we cannot accept their lifestyle as "non-sinful".  You do not know what they go through, and so we feel quite inclined to be sympathetic.  Why exactly do you feel the need to throw mud on obese people.  Everyone has different genes, different environments, different situations.  Don't be a jackass and judge people like that.
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« Reply #83 on: June 22, 2013, 12:44:20 AM »

Reply 1 for post 1:

I wish the article had included how the AMA defines disease. It seems impossible to have an opinion one way or the other without knowing that.

This is the question that needs an answer before posting this way or that ZealousZeal. We need to listen to Alpacas more often.

Would you not lable other hormone imbalances as diseases? If you are a female and have a hormonal imbalance due to menopause isnt that a disease?
If you have an over active thyroid or underactive, isnt that a disease? How about adrenal exhaustion or type 1 diabetes.

Yes I would label them as diseases. However, from what I understand obesity rates are rising. Therefore the cause is primarily environmental and not genetic. In terms of genetics, it would make sense that Polynesians and Alaskan Native Americans evolved to preserve their fat content, but it makes less sense for Europeans during the same time span. Even if you put up this argument, the laws of physics rules.

I am going to continue to post, but I am not particularly interested in this topic. I am just giving my viewpoint which should allow you to discredit me as much as you so desire in order for you to feel good. I think the latter is what makes us healthy. NOT DIET OF ANY SORT. Perhaps more about this later if I prove to be more daring than I think I am.

Obesity is due to metabolic syndrome ( too much insulin being pumped into your system). You develp this condition from eating foods that the f ing Government told you were healthy and that you should eat lots of. It is also exacerbated by suger which the food industry has pumped into all kinds of foods when they took out the fat.

So Obesity is the main symptom of a metabolic disorder caused by a hormonal imbalance..  


Hormonal imbalance is caused by being overweight. Do you disagree with this and would you care to cite references?


But people have been led to think obesity is due to eating too much because of lack of will power.. It's about time that little nugget got put to rest.

Its not really how much you eat but what you eat.. Here is an article about a man who did an experiment on himself. He ate 5,800 calories for one month of Low Carb, High Fat foods and didnt really gain weight, only 3.5 pounds. But if you did the conventional math he should have gained much much more.. On the other hand, people who ate junk food as an experiment ( "Super Size Me" ) gain lots of weight..

http://www.dietdoctor.com/what-happens-if-you-eat-5800-calories-daily-on-an-lchf-diet




It is not lifestyle or will power. Obesity is caused by depression and/or the will to participate in life. (I expect some may hate me for this statement), but if you are sitting or lying down reading you are indulging yourself, you can do it standing up as well with just as much pleasure.

By the way your buff man is so full of holes it is not worth commenting on it. My personal example refutes this explicitly. You seem to have automatic responses without reading the posts. More about this in you next post in which you try to confuse the issue.



Yes I would label them as diseases. However, from what I understand obesity rates are rising. Therefore the cause is primarily environmental and not genetic. In terms of genetics, it would make sense that Polynesians and Alaskan Native Americans evolved to preserve their fat content, but it makes less sense for Europeans during the same time span. Even if you put up this argument, the laws of physics rules.


We have evolved over a span of 2 million years. Eskimo's are not the only people who have bodies designed to live a hunter gatherer life. We all have basically the same genetic make up as our Paleolithic ancestors. Agriculture has only been around for 10,000 years which is not long enough for significant evolutionary changes.


I am going to continue to post, but I am not particularly interested in this topic. I am just giving my viewpoint which should allow you to discredit me as much as you so desire in order for you to feel good. I think the latter is what makes us healthy. NOT DIET OF ANY SORT. Perhaps more about this later if I prove to be more daring than I think I am.

What in the world are you talking about? Just stick to the topic and give your options and evidence and all will be fine.  

It is not lifestyle or will power. Obesity is caused by depression and/or the will to participate in life.

Obesity is caused by too much insulin directing your body to hold on to fat. It has nothing to do with depression or sloth or inactivity or even eating too many calories.

Here, spend an hour:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpavkD7ot8I

Marc, I am not going to address your new posts until I address your old posts. That is just the way I am. I can only grapple with one thing at a time. If you want a back and forth post between 7-9pm pst, not when I am at work.



I was not aware that this was a debate between me and you Smiley  Post whatever you want whenever you want. I will do the same.

Appreciate this Marc. This is the way it should be.

Just so you know, I will not spend an hour on the youtube video.

I am going to go back to an earlier notion. If what you are saying is true. The rate of obesity would be constant. Can you clarify why that would not be the case based on your insulin scenario?

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« Reply #84 on: June 22, 2013, 01:12:36 AM »

Some of the people in this thread need to have a bit more sympathy and empathy than saying "they're just being lazy f****".  You're bunch of a******* for thinking this way.

For once, more and more research are finding out things about obesity that makes us a bit more open to treating it in more drastic measures than just "diet and exercise".  And yes...there is such a thing as "skinny fat".  High cholesterol and heart attacks do not just occur in obese people.  Yes, obesity is a risk factor, but not the sole issue.  If one was to choose between a high fat diet and a high carb diet, choose the former.  It is recommended to stay away from 1% and skim milk because those are the ones that actually make you fat quicker, whereas the higher fat content makes it a bit more difficult for the body to absord the lactase.

Anyways, you have to consider also the fact that obesity is a crazy spiral that is difficult to fight.  The fatter you get, the hungrier you become, the more inactive you'll become.  Will power and crazy amounts of hormones make it quite a burden to fight.

Think of homosexuality.  We have become much more careful and sensitive in their situation while showing that we cannot accept their lifestyle as "non-sinful".  You do not know what they go through, and so we feel quite inclined to be sympathetic.  Why exactly do you feel the need to throw mud on obese people.  Everyone has different genes, different environments, different situations.  Don't be a jackass and judge people like that.

Minasoliman, I would like a link to a paper on skinny fat, I have never heard of it, and the equivalency of skinny with fat makes little sense.

My personal issue in these threads has nothing to do with combating weight (which is worthwhile), but more to do with the notion of whether extending ones life 3-5 years on average is worthwhile. My fear is that we worry so much about when we die, that we miss the point of living.
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« Reply #85 on: June 22, 2013, 10:41:27 AM »

Reply 1 for post 1:

I wish the article had included how the AMA defines disease. It seems impossible to have an opinion one way or the other without knowing that.

This is the question that needs an answer before posting this way or that ZealousZeal. We need to listen to Alpacas more often.

Would you not lable other hormone imbalances as diseases? If you are a female and have a hormonal imbalance due to menopause isnt that a disease?
If you have an over active thyroid or underactive, isnt that a disease? How about adrenal exhaustion or type 1 diabetes.

Yes I would label them as diseases. However, from what I understand obesity rates are rising. Therefore the cause is primarily environmental and not genetic. In terms of genetics, it would make sense that Polynesians and Alaskan Native Americans evolved to preserve their fat content, but it makes less sense for Europeans during the same time span. Even if you put up this argument, the laws of physics rules.

I am going to continue to post, but I am not particularly interested in this topic. I am just giving my viewpoint which should allow you to discredit me as much as you so desire in order for you to feel good. I think the latter is what makes us healthy. NOT DIET OF ANY SORT. Perhaps more about this later if I prove to be more daring than I think I am.

Obesity is due to metabolic syndrome ( too much insulin being pumped into your system). You develp this condition from eating foods that the f ing Government told you were healthy and that you should eat lots of. It is also exacerbated by suger which the food industry has pumped into all kinds of foods when they took out the fat.

So Obesity is the main symptom of a metabolic disorder caused by a hormonal imbalance..  


Hormonal imbalance is caused by being overweight. Do you disagree with this and would you care to cite references?


But people have been led to think obesity is due to eating too much because of lack of will power.. It's about time that little nugget got put to rest.

Its not really how much you eat but what you eat.. Here is an article about a man who did an experiment on himself. He ate 5,800 calories for one month of Low Carb, High Fat foods and didnt really gain weight, only 3.5 pounds. But if you did the conventional math he should have gained much much more.. On the other hand, people who ate junk food as an experiment ( "Super Size Me" ) gain lots of weight..

http://www.dietdoctor.com/what-happens-if-you-eat-5800-calories-daily-on-an-lchf-diet




It is not lifestyle or will power. Obesity is caused by depression and/or the will to participate in life. (I expect some may hate me for this statement), but if you are sitting or lying down reading you are indulging yourself, you can do it standing up as well with just as much pleasure.

By the way your buff man is so full of holes it is not worth commenting on it. My personal example refutes this explicitly. You seem to have automatic responses without reading the posts. More about this in you next post in which you try to confuse the issue.



Yes I would label them as diseases. However, from what I understand obesity rates are rising. Therefore the cause is primarily environmental and not genetic. In terms of genetics, it would make sense that Polynesians and Alaskan Native Americans evolved to preserve their fat content, but it makes less sense for Europeans during the same time span. Even if you put up this argument, the laws of physics rules.


We have evolved over a span of 2 million years. Eskimo's are not the only people who have bodies designed to live a hunter gatherer life. We all have basically the same genetic make up as our Paleolithic ancestors. Agriculture has only been around for 10,000 years which is not long enough for significant evolutionary changes.


I am going to continue to post, but I am not particularly interested in this topic. I am just giving my viewpoint which should allow you to discredit me as much as you so desire in order for you to feel good. I think the latter is what makes us healthy. NOT DIET OF ANY SORT. Perhaps more about this later if I prove to be more daring than I think I am.

What in the world are you talking about? Just stick to the topic and give your options and evidence and all will be fine.  

It is not lifestyle or will power. Obesity is caused by depression and/or the will to participate in life.

Obesity is caused by too much insulin directing your body to hold on to fat. It has nothing to do with depression or sloth or inactivity or even eating too many calories.

Here, spend an hour:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpavkD7ot8I

Marc, I am not going to address your new posts until I address your old posts. That is just the way I am. I can only grapple with one thing at a time. If you want a back and forth post between 7-9pm pst, not when I am at work.



I was not aware that this was a debate between me and you Smiley  Post whatever you want whenever you want. I will do the same.

Appreciate this Marc. This is the way it should be.

Just so you know, I will not spend an hour on the youtube video.

I am going to go back to an earlier notion. If what you are saying is true. The rate of obesity would be constant. Can you clarify why that would not be the case based on your insulin scenario?



I dont understand your question. Why would obesity be constant and what are you referring to, the whole population?

Denise Minger has a book coming out about the history of the bad advice that triggered the obesity epidemic "Death by Food Pyramid" But you can search on her name now and learn more.... I'm sorry that this may take some time but she is a very engaging non wonky  speaker.



Obesity is Now a Disease, Says AMA
June 19 20:48 in Insulin, Weight Loss

http://www.dietdoctor.com/obesity-is-now-a-disease-says-ama

Personally I don’t look at obesity as a disease. I see obesity as a symptom of a disturbed weight regulation, which is often due to a hormonal problem. Most commonly having way too much insulin in the blood. Obese people often have 5 – 10 times normal levels of insulin. But there are many other possible problems that can also lead to the symptom of obesity.

Thus obesity is a symptom of a disease. The underlying disease is often metabolic syndrome, resulting in too much fat-storing insulin. The cause of metabolic syndrome is often decades of eating too much sugar and other processed junk carbohydrates.



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« Reply #86 on: June 22, 2013, 10:45:23 AM »

Here is part of an article by Cardiologist William Davis, author of the book "Wheat Belly"... he gives a different perspective on the AMA decision  than what we have talked about so far:

http://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2013/06/the-monetization-of-obesity/

Obesity advocacy groups hailed the decision as a major victory. AMA Board Member, Dr. Patrice Harris, said, “Recognizing obesity as a disease will help change the way the medical community tackles this complex issue that affects approximately one in three Americans.” Joseph Nadglowski, president and CEO of the Obesity Action Coalition, a non-profit obesity advocacy group, felt that identifying obesity as a disease may also help in reducing the stigma often associated with being overweight.

It all sounds good, doesn’t it? Let unstigmatize obesity. Let’s not blame the victim. Let’s get these people help when and where they need it.

Step back a second. How and why did this happen?

Well, it’s hard to know how the internal discussions at the AMA went until we get a look at the transcripts. But let’s take a look at the Obesity Action Coalition (OAC). I believe it tells the whole story.

The OAC Board of Directors is filled with bariatric surgeons, such as Drs. Titus Duncan and Lloyd Stegemann, people who make a living from procedures and surgeries like gastric bypass and lap-band. The largest contributors to the OAC? Eisai Pharmaceuticals, maker of BELVIQ, the new drug for weight loss; Ethicon EndoSurgery, makers of laparoscopic operating room supplies; Vivus, Inc., another obesity drug maker; the American Society for Bariatric Surgeons; and Orexigen, developer of the combination drug naltrexone-buproprion for weight loss, now in FDA application stage. (Recall that naltrexone is the opiate blocking drug taken by heroin addicts but now being proposed to be gain approval for weight loss.)

In other words, while it is being cast as something being done for the public good, the motivation is more likely to be . . . money: Bariatric surgeons gain by expanding the market for their procedures to patients who previously did not have insurance coverage for this “non-disease”; operating room supply manufacturers will sell more equipment for the dramatically increased number of surgical procedures; obesity drug manufacturers will have the clout to pressure health insurers to cover the drugs for this new disease.

From the perspective of the Wheat Belly arguments, I see the world something like this: Tell the world to eat more “healthy whole grains,” complete with the gliadin-derived opiates in wheat that stimulate appetite by binding to the opiate receptors of the human brain; we eat more–400 calories per person, per day, 365 days per year, with most of those calories coming from junk carbohydrates like corn chips and soft drinks, the sort that stimulate insulin, the hormone of fat storage; experience repetitive high blood sugars and insulin from the amylopectin A of wheat, the complex carbohydrate in wheat that behaves more like a simple sugar. We gain and gain and gain.
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« Reply #87 on: June 22, 2013, 10:54:00 AM »

And to just wrap up the discussion about exercise as a weight loss strategy:

http://www.fitnessmagazine.com/weight-loss/eating-help/control-cravings/control-your-post-workout-appetite/

 The Food-Exercise Equation

Two days ago I logged my usual 12 laps around the local track. I finished hungry but happy. When I popped over there today, I found the track gone, razed by bulldozers now sitting atop a huge pile of mud. How was I supposed to lose weight if I had no place to exercise?

Actually, skipping my workout might not be a bad thing, according to a hotly contested idea circulating among researchers and making headlines in publications such as The New York Times and Time magazine. Exercise, ironically, is being singled out by some as a deterrent to weight-loss efforts. Say what?

"There's this hunger issue," says Kendrin Sonneville, RD, a researcher at the Harvard School of Public Health. Her study about how kids who exercised the most ate back all the calories they burned off, and then some, was featured in a Time cover story, "Why Exercise Won't Make You Thin,"
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« Reply #88 on: June 22, 2013, 11:03:19 AM »

Some of the people in this thread need to have a bit more sympathy and empathy than saying "they're just being lazy f****".  You're bunch of a******* for thinking this way.

For once, more and more research are finding out things about obesity that makes us a bit more open to treating it in more drastic measures than just "diet and exercise".  And yes...there is such a thing as "skinny fat".  High cholesterol and heart attacks do not just occur in obese people.  Yes, obesity is a risk factor, but not the sole issue.  If one was to choose between a high fat diet and a high carb diet, choose the former.  It is recommended to stay away from 1% and skim milk because those are the ones that actually make you fat quicker, whereas the higher fat content makes it a bit more difficult for the body to absord the lactase.

Anyways, you have to consider also the fact that obesity is a crazy spiral that is difficult to fight.  The fatter you get, the hungrier you become, the more inactive you'll become.  Will power and crazy amounts of hormones make it quite a burden to fight.

Think of homosexuality.  We have become much more careful and sensitive in their situation while showing that we cannot accept their lifestyle as "non-sinful".  You do not know what they go through, and so we feel quite inclined to be sympathetic.  Why exactly do you feel the need to throw mud on obese people.  Everyone has different genes, different environments, different situations.  Don't be a jackass and judge people like that.

Minasoliman, I would like a link to a paper on skinny fat, I have never heard of it, and the equivalency of skinny with fat makes little sense.

My personal issue in these threads has nothing to do with combating weight (which is worthwhile), but more to do with the notion of whether extending ones life 3-5 years on average is worthwhile. My fear is that we worry so much about when we die, that we miss the point of living.

How about avoiding being sick and frail and demented the last 20 years of your life. Would that be worth it? And what are to costs to society of having so many people debilitated due to obesity and the illnesses it drives?

There would be no Health Care crises if the obesity epidemic went away.
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« Reply #89 on: June 23, 2013, 02:29:41 PM »

Some of the people in this thread need to have a bit more sympathy and empathy than saying "they're just being lazy f****".  You're bunch of a******* for thinking this way.

For once, more and more research are finding out things about obesity that makes us a bit more open to treating it in more drastic measures than just "diet and exercise".  And yes...there is such a thing as "skinny fat".  High cholesterol and heart attacks do not just occur in obese people.  Yes, obesity is a risk factor, but not the sole issue.  If one was to choose between a high fat diet and a high carb diet, choose the former.  It is recommended to stay away from 1% and skim milk because those are the ones that actually make you fat quicker, whereas the higher fat content makes it a bit more difficult for the body to absord the lactase.

Anyways, you have to consider also the fact that obesity is a crazy spiral that is difficult to fight.  The fatter you get, the hungrier you become, the more inactive you'll become.  Will power and crazy amounts of hormones make it quite a burden to fight.

Think of homosexuality.  We have become much more careful and sensitive in their situation while showing that we cannot accept their lifestyle as "non-sinful".  You do not know what they go through, and so we feel quite inclined to be sympathetic.  Why exactly do you feel the need to throw mud on obese people.  Everyone has different genes, different environments, different situations.  Don't be a jackass and judge people like that.


My personal issue in these threads has nothing to do with combating weight (which is worthwhile), but more to do with the notion of whether extending ones life 3-5 years on average is worthwhile. My fear is that we worry so much about when we die, that we miss the point of living.
+1,000! 

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« Reply #90 on: June 23, 2013, 03:42:16 PM »

Some of the people in this thread need to have a bit more sympathy and empathy than saying "they're just being lazy f****".  You're bunch of a******* for thinking this way.

For once, more and more research are finding out things about obesity that makes us a bit more open to treating it in more drastic measures than just "diet and exercise".  And yes...there is such a thing as "skinny fat".  High cholesterol and heart attacks do not just occur in obese people.  Yes, obesity is a risk factor, but not the sole issue.  If one was to choose between a high fat diet and a high carb diet, choose the former.  It is recommended to stay away from 1% and skim milk because those are the ones that actually make you fat quicker, whereas the higher fat content makes it a bit more difficult for the body to absord the lactase.

Anyways, you have to consider also the fact that obesity is a crazy spiral that is difficult to fight.  The fatter you get, the hungrier you become, the more inactive you'll become.  Will power and crazy amounts of hormones make it quite a burden to fight.

Think of homosexuality.  We have become much more careful and sensitive in their situation while showing that we cannot accept their lifestyle as "non-sinful".  You do not know what they go through, and so we feel quite inclined to be sympathetic.  Why exactly do you feel the need to throw mud on obese people.  Everyone has different genes, different environments, different situations.  Don't be a jackass and judge people like that.


My personal issue in these threads has nothing to do with combating weight (which is worthwhile), but more to do with the notion of whether extending ones life 3-5 years on average is worthwhile. My fear is that we worry so much about when we die, that we miss the point of living.
+1,000! 


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« Reply #91 on: June 23, 2013, 04:01:11 PM »

There would be no Health Care crises if the obesity epidemic went away.

Right, because obesity is the single and only cause of all health problems.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #92 on: June 23, 2013, 04:08:44 PM »

Some of the people in this thread need to have a bit more sympathy and empathy than saying "they're just being lazy f****".  You're bunch of a******* for thinking this way.

For once, more and more research are finding out things about obesity that makes us a bit more open to treating it in more drastic measures than just "diet and exercise".  And yes...there is such a thing as "skinny fat".  High cholesterol and heart attacks do not just occur in obese people.  Yes, obesity is a risk factor, but not the sole issue.  If one was to choose between a high fat diet and a high carb diet, choose the former.  It is recommended to stay away from 1% and skim milk because those are the ones that actually make you fat quicker, whereas the higher fat content makes it a bit more difficult for the body to absord the lactase.

Anyways, you have to consider also the fact that obesity is a crazy spiral that is difficult to fight.  The fatter you get, the hungrier you become, the more inactive you'll become.  Will power and crazy amounts of hormones make it quite a burden to fight.

Think of homosexuality.  We have become much more careful and sensitive in their situation while showing that we cannot accept their lifestyle as "non-sinful".  You do not know what they go through, and so we feel quite inclined to be sympathetic.  Why exactly do you feel the need to throw mud on obese people.  Everyone has different genes, different environments, different situations.  Don't be a jackass and judge people like that.


My personal issue in these threads has nothing to do with combating weight (which is worthwhile), but more to do with the notion of whether extending ones life 3-5 years on average is worthwhile. My fear is that we worry so much about when we die, that we miss the point of living.
+1,000! 



Maybe the second time will be the charm.. Obesity drives Heart Disease,Stroke,  Diabetes, Cancer, muscular skeletal degeneration and maybe even dementia..

Back in the good old days you died and died quick from many of these conditions. Today, they keep you alive but often you are debilitated. The ever downward spiral can last decades....It has very little to do with extending life a couple of years. People are not all the way well one day and then all the way sick the next. It's worth avoiding if not for your own sake but for the sake of your family that will have to take care of you..   
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« Reply #93 on: June 23, 2013, 04:12:57 PM »

Some of the people in this thread need to have a bit more sympathy and empathy than saying "they're just being lazy f****".  You're bunch of a******* for thinking this way.

For once, more and more research are finding out things about obesity that makes us a bit more open to treating it in more drastic measures than just "diet and exercise".  And yes...there is such a thing as "skinny fat".  High cholesterol and heart attacks do not just occur in obese people.  Yes, obesity is a risk factor, but not the sole issue.  If one was to choose between a high fat diet and a high carb diet, choose the former.  It is recommended to stay away from 1% and skim milk because those are the ones that actually make you fat quicker, whereas the higher fat content makes it a bit more difficult for the body to absord the lactase.

Anyways, you have to consider also the fact that obesity is a crazy spiral that is difficult to fight.  The fatter you get, the hungrier you become, the more inactive you'll become.  Will power and crazy amounts of hormones make it quite a burden to fight.

Think of homosexuality.  We have become much more careful and sensitive in their situation while showing that we cannot accept their lifestyle as "non-sinful".  You do not know what they go through, and so we feel quite inclined to be sympathetic.  Why exactly do you feel the need to throw mud on obese people.  Everyone has different genes, different environments, different situations.  Don't be a jackass and judge people like that.


My personal issue in these threads has nothing to do with combating weight (which is worthwhile), but more to do with the notion of whether extending ones life 3-5 years on average is worthwhile. My fear is that we worry so much about when we die, that we miss the point of living.
+1,000! 



Maybe the second time will be the charm.. Obesity drives Heart Disease,Stroke,  Diabetes, Cancer, muscular skeletal degeneration and maybe even dementia..

Back in the good old days you died and died quick from many of these conditions. Today, they keep you alive but often you are debilitated. The ever downward spiral can last decades....It has very little to do with extending life a couple of years. People are not all the way well one day and then all the way sick the next. It's worth avoiding if not for your own sake but for the sake of your family that will have to take care of you..   

Does obesity cause lung cancer? I thought that was smoking.

Please provide proof that obesity drives cancer and dementia, because I don't believe your assertion.
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« Reply #94 on: June 23, 2013, 04:19:09 PM »

There would be no Health Care crises if the obesity epidemic went away.

Right, because obesity is the single and only cause of all health problems.  Roll Eyes

Pretty close... Do you need to look at some of the data?

There is also smoking, environmental pollutants, genetic predisposition to some things.

But we have conquered infectious diseases by in large. A new virus could pop up of course but in the advanced World stuff like TB is a thing of the past.

What is effecting people these days is Heart disease, Stroke, Cancer  and Diabetes. These are called modern diseases because they were not very big factors until people changed their diets and the majority of the population became overweight.

Sixty percent of all people in the Untied State ( and England) are either overweight or obese. Solve the obesity epidemic and you solve the health care crises.  

    
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« Reply #95 on: June 23, 2013, 04:30:00 PM »

Some of the people in this thread need to have a bit more sympathy and empathy than saying "they're just being lazy f****".  You're bunch of a******* for thinking this way.

For once, more and more research are finding out things about obesity that makes us a bit more open to treating it in more drastic measures than just "diet and exercise".  And yes...there is such a thing as "skinny fat".  High cholesterol and heart attacks do not just occur in obese people.  Yes, obesity is a risk factor, but not the sole issue.  If one was to choose between a high fat diet and a high carb diet, choose the former.  It is recommended to stay away from 1% and skim milk because those are the ones that actually make you fat quicker, whereas the higher fat content makes it a bit more difficult for the body to absord the lactase.

Anyways, you have to consider also the fact that obesity is a crazy spiral that is difficult to fight.  The fatter you get, the hungrier you become, the more inactive you'll become.  Will power and crazy amounts of hormones make it quite a burden to fight.

Think of homosexuality.  We have become much more careful and sensitive in their situation while showing that we cannot accept their lifestyle as "non-sinful".  You do not know what they go through, and so we feel quite inclined to be sympathetic.  Why exactly do you feel the need to throw mud on obese people.  Everyone has different genes, different environments, different situations.  Don't be a jackass and judge people like that.


My personal issue in these threads has nothing to do with combating weight (which is worthwhile), but more to do with the notion of whether extending ones life 3-5 years on average is worthwhile. My fear is that we worry so much about when we die, that we miss the point of living.
+1,000! 



Maybe the second time will be the charm.. Obesity drives Heart Disease,Stroke,  Diabetes, Cancer, muscular skeletal degeneration and maybe even dementia..

Back in the good old days you died and died quick from many of these conditions. Today, they keep you alive but often you are debilitated. The ever downward spiral can last decades....It has very little to do with extending life a couple of years. People are not all the way well one day and then all the way sick the next. It's worth avoiding if not for your own sake but for the sake of your family that will have to take care of you..   

Does obesity cause lung cancer? I thought that was smoking.

Please provide proof that obesity drives cancer and dementia, because I don't believe your assertion.

Right, lung cancer can be caused by smoking so that is an example of a disease not directly caused by obesity.

Lung cancer is exacerbated by obesity. Here is how.  Tumors LOVE sugar.. If you have little to no sugar in your system your odds of getting cancer drop dramatically.  If you get cancer from smoking or asbestos high sugar levels in your blood due to obesity or poor diet will make things far worse.
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« Reply #96 on: June 23, 2013, 04:42:57 PM »

Some of the people in this thread need to have a bit more sympathy and empathy than saying "they're just being lazy f****".  You're bunch of a******* for thinking this way.

For once, more and more research are finding out things about obesity that makes us a bit more open to treating it in more drastic measures than just "diet and exercise".  And yes...there is such a thing as "skinny fat".  High cholesterol and heart attacks do not just occur in obese people.  Yes, obesity is a risk factor, but not the sole issue.  If one was to choose between a high fat diet and a high carb diet, choose the former.  It is recommended to stay away from 1% and skim milk because those are the ones that actually make you fat quicker, whereas the higher fat content makes it a bit more difficult for the body to absord the lactase.

Anyways, you have to consider also the fact that obesity is a crazy spiral that is difficult to fight.  The fatter you get, the hungrier you become, the more inactive you'll become.  Will power and crazy amounts of hormones make it quite a burden to fight.

Think of homosexuality.  We have become much more careful and sensitive in their situation while showing that we cannot accept their lifestyle as "non-sinful".  You do not know what they go through, and so we feel quite inclined to be sympathetic.  Why exactly do you feel the need to throw mud on obese people.  Everyone has different genes, different environments, different situations.  Don't be a jackass and judge people like that.


My personal issue in these threads has nothing to do with combating weight (which is worthwhile), but more to do with the notion of whether extending ones life 3-5 years on average is worthwhile. My fear is that we worry so much about when we die, that we miss the point of living.
+1,000! 



Maybe the second time will be the charm.. Obesity drives Heart Disease,Stroke,  Diabetes, Cancer, muscular skeletal degeneration and maybe even dementia..

Back in the good old days you died and died quick from many of these conditions. Today, they keep you alive but often you are debilitated. The ever downward spiral can last decades....It has very little to do with extending life a couple of years. People are not all the way well one day and then all the way sick the next. It's worth avoiding if not for your own sake but for the sake of your family that will have to take care of you..   

Does obesity cause lung cancer? I thought that was smoking.

Please provide proof that obesity drives cancer and dementia, because I don't believe your assertion.

The obesity / cancer link is not debatable at this point. Obesity has now exceeded smoking as the leading threat to developing cancer

Dementia is not as clear, that is why I said "It may drive dementia"

Here you go:

The Obesity-Cancer Connection Panel: Metabolism, Diet and Disease Conference

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EffpuKqWWF8

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« Reply #97 on: June 23, 2013, 04:59:20 PM »

I believe it's not "obesity" per se, but sugar consumption, that's responsible for a lot of the ills you're talking about. Per this article, "Does Obesity Cause Cancer"? (http://naturalweightlosstruth.com/does-obesity-cause-cancer), although obesity is definitely a health risk:

Reducing sugar will likewise have a powerful effect on your quality of life and your health as well.

And that goes for whether you’re morbidly obese or skinny as a rail.


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« Reply #98 on: June 23, 2013, 05:04:24 PM »

I believe it's not "obesity" per se, but sugar consumption, that's responsible for a lot of the ills you're talking about. Per this article, "Does Obesity Cause Cancer"? (http://naturalweightlosstruth.com/does-obesity-cause-cancer), although obesity is definitely a health risk:

Reducing sugar will likewise have a powerful effect on your quality of life and your health as well.

And that goes for whether you’re morbidly obese or skinny as a rail.




Yes sugar exacerbates cancer for sure. But it's difficult to untether obesity and metabolic syndrome and high levels of sugar in the blood. So if you are obese you have too much sugar too. If you are not obese you should not eat any sugar.
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« Reply #99 on: June 23, 2013, 05:05:57 PM »

So if you are obese you have too much sugar too. If you are not obese you should not eat any sugar.

In other words,

"Reducing sugar will likewise have a powerful effect on your quality of life and your health as well.

And that goes for whether you’re morbidly obese or skinny as a rail."


Which is what I just posted.  So what are we disagreeing about? Cool
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« Reply #100 on: June 23, 2013, 05:06:13 PM »

x dupe
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« Reply #101 on: June 23, 2013, 05:26:45 PM »

I believe it's not "obesity" per se, but sugar consumption, that's responsible for a lot of the ills you're talking about. Per this article, "Does Obesity Cause Cancer"? (http://naturalweightlosstruth.com/does-obesity-cause-cancer), although obesity is definitely a health risk:

Reducing sugar will likewise have a powerful effect on your quality of life and your health as well.

And that goes for whether you’re morbidly obese or skinny as a rail.




Yes sugar exacerbates cancer for sure. But it's difficult to untether obesity and metabolic syndrome and high levels of sugar in the blood. So if you are obese you have too much sugar too. If you are not obese you should not eat any sugar.

I love these sorta posts by marc.

Quote
Yes x ws y.

Where x ws y is a pretty nonsensical statement, but just thrown out like water is wet.
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« Reply #102 on: June 23, 2013, 06:49:46 PM »

Slobs everywhere will be glad to know when they eat three large pizzas in one sitting, sit on the couch all day, and conduct no physical activity other than shoveling food down their gullets isn't their fault.  It's a disease. 

Now, the other 0.04 percent of overweight folks in the world will actually benefit from emerging science in the subject.
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« Reply #103 on: June 23, 2013, 08:46:22 PM »

So if you are obese you have too much sugar too. If you are not obese you should not eat any sugar.

In other words,

"Reducing sugar will likewise have a powerful effect on your quality of life and your health as well.

And that goes for whether you’re morbidly obese or skinny as a rail."


Which is what I just posted.  So what are we disagreeing about? Cool

Right, so stop Smiley

There is also a catch 22. You need to consider what you mean by "Sugar"


All carbohydrates turn to sugar in your body , that is the only way your body can metabolize it. All carbs are tuned into simple sugar once you eat it.
One slice of whole wheat bread is equivalent to three teaspoons of table sugar..   

So the way of eating I have been talking about cuts out all carbohydrates (sugar) . If you cut out all carbs or keep them a very small part of your diet...You will not become obese. And if you are obese if you cut out all carbohydrates you will not stay that way. So if you really cut out "sugar" (fructose, Glucose and all Carbohydrates) you will not be obese. If you cut out all carbs you cancer risk pretty much goes away unless you smoke.

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« Reply #104 on: June 23, 2013, 10:56:28 PM »

So if you are obese you have too much sugar too. If you are not obese you should not eat any sugar.

In other words,

"Reducing sugar will likewise have a powerful effect on your quality of life and your health as well.

And that goes for whether you’re morbidly obese or skinny as a rail."


Which is what I just posted.  So what are we disagreeing about? Cool

Right, so stop Smiley

There is also a catch 22. You need to consider what you mean by "Sugar"


All carbohydrates turn to sugar in your body , that is the only way your body can metabolize it. All carbs are tuned into simple sugar once you eat it.
One slice of whole wheat bread is equivalent to three teaspoons of table sugar..  

So the way of eating I have been talking about cuts out all carbohydrates (sugar) . If you cut out all carbs or keep them a very small part of your diet...You will not become obese. And if you are obese if you cut out all carbohydrates you will not stay that way. So if you really cut out "sugar" (fructose, Glucose and all Carbohydrates) you will not be obese. If you cut out all carbs you cancer risk pretty much goes away unless you smoke.

Not necessarily true (and I'm not just trying to be a contrarian  Cool ). You really can't - and should not - cut out ALL carbohydrates, or any other food group, from your diet.

The only diet that's worked consistently for me is the "No S Diet" which you may enjoy reading about here if you're not familiar with it (http://www.nosdiet.com/). As you can see, it doesn't cut out any particular group of foods but encourages moderation and developing sensible eating habits. (I hope you'll read the whole article because if you do you'll see that the author actually agrees with you in your assessment of sugar. Just doesn't forbid it *entirely*.)
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« Reply #105 on: June 24, 2013, 02:24:01 AM »

Some of the people in this thread need to have a bit more sympathy and empathy than saying "they're just being lazy f****".  You're bunch of a******* for thinking this way.

For once, more and more research are finding out things about obesity that makes us a bit more open to treating it in more drastic measures than just "diet and exercise".  And yes...there is such a thing as "skinny fat".  High cholesterol and heart attacks do not just occur in obese people.  Yes, obesity is a risk factor, but not the sole issue.  If one was to choose between a high fat diet and a high carb diet, choose the former.  It is recommended to stay away from 1% and skim milk because those are the ones that actually make you fat quicker, whereas the higher fat content makes it a bit more difficult for the body to absord the lactase.

Anyways, you have to consider also the fact that obesity is a crazy spiral that is difficult to fight.  The fatter you get, the hungrier you become, the more inactive you'll become.  Will power and crazy amounts of hormones make it quite a burden to fight.

Think of homosexuality.  We have become much more careful and sensitive in their situation while showing that we cannot accept their lifestyle as "non-sinful".  You do not know what they go through, and so we feel quite inclined to be sympathetic.  Why exactly do you feel the need to throw mud on obese people.  Everyone has different genes, different environments, different situations.  Don't be a jackass and judge people like that.

Minasoliman, I would like a link to a paper on skinny fat, I have never heard of it, and the equivalency of skinny with fat makes little sense.

My personal issue in these threads has nothing to do with combating weight (which is worthwhile), but more to do with the notion of whether extending ones life 3-5 years on average is worthwhile. My fear is that we worry so much about when we die, that we miss the point of living.

Extending one's life 3-5 years?Huh  How about full healthy worthwhile life until almost a hundred, that is if you don't get cancer for some genetic reason.

The medical terminology is "metabolically obese, but normal weight" or "MONW":

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=monw

MONW is when you have someone who is skinny but eats unhealthily, and is still prone to the same problems an obese person is.  So, yes, eating healthy is in fact one of the good points of living.  Obesity and skinny fat is no way of living.  If you want to "live life" by eating crap, be my guest.  Makes you no different than cigarette smokers and alcoholics, who also "live life" for their own fleshly desires.
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« Reply #106 on: June 24, 2013, 03:38:05 AM »

Some of the people in this thread need to have a bit more sympathy and empathy than saying "they're just being lazy f****".  You're bunch of a******* for thinking this way.

For once, more and more research are finding out things about obesity that makes us a bit more open to treating it in more drastic measures than just "diet and exercise".  And yes...there is such a thing as "skinny fat".  High cholesterol and heart attacks do not just occur in obese people.  Yes, obesity is a risk factor, but not the sole issue.  If one was to choose between a high fat diet and a high carb diet, choose the former.  It is recommended to stay away from 1% and skim milk because those are the ones that actually make you fat quicker, whereas the higher fat content makes it a bit more difficult for the body to absord the lactase.

Anyways, you have to consider also the fact that obesity is a crazy spiral that is difficult to fight.  The fatter you get, the hungrier you become, the more inactive you'll become.  Will power and crazy amounts of hormones make it quite a burden to fight.

Think of homosexuality.  We have become much more careful and sensitive in their situation while showing that we cannot accept their lifestyle as "non-sinful".  You do not know what they go through, and so we feel quite inclined to be sympathetic.  Why exactly do you feel the need to throw mud on obese people.  Everyone has different genes, different environments, different situations.  Don't be a jackass and judge people like that.

Minasoliman, I would like a link to a paper on skinny fat, I have never heard of it, and the equivalency of skinny with fat makes little sense.

My personal issue in these threads has nothing to do with combating weight (which is worthwhile), but more to do with the notion of whether extending ones life 3-5 years on average is worthwhile. My fear is that we worry so much about when we die, that we miss the point of living.

Extending one's life 3-5 years?Huh  How about full healthy worthwhile life until almost a hundred, that is if you don't get cancer for some genetic reason.

The medical terminology is "metabolically obese, but normal weight" or "MONW":

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=monw

MONW is when you have someone who is skinny but eats unhealthily, and is still prone to the same problems an obese person is.  So, yes, eating healthy is in fact one of the good points of living.  Obesity and skinny fat is no way of living.  If you want to "live life" by eating crap, be my guest.  Makes you no different than cigarette smokers and alcoholics, who also "live life" for their own fleshly desires.

This is a loaded response backed up by almost no evidence. This post is sorta like formerly poor folks who do to the vicissitudes of life "make it" then make poverty a moral issue coupled with something like will.
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« Reply #107 on: June 24, 2013, 12:22:40 PM »

So if you are obese you have too much sugar too. If you are not obese you should not eat any sugar.

In other words,

"Reducing sugar will likewise have a powerful effect on your quality of life and your health as well.

And that goes for whether you’re morbidly obese or skinny as a rail."


Which is what I just posted.  So what are we disagreeing about? Cool

Right, so stop Smiley

There is also a catch 22. You need to consider what you mean by "Sugar"


All carbohydrates turn to sugar in your body , that is the only way your body can metabolize it. All carbs are tuned into simple sugar once you eat it.
One slice of whole wheat bread is equivalent to three teaspoons of table sugar..  

So the way of eating I have been talking about cuts out all carbohydrates (sugar) . If you cut out all carbs or keep them a very small part of your diet...You will not become obese. And if you are obese if you cut out all carbohydrates you will not stay that way. So if you really cut out "sugar" (fructose, Glucose and all Carbohydrates) you will not be obese. If you cut out all carbs you cancer risk pretty much goes away unless you smoke.

Not necessarily true (and I'm not just trying to be a contrarian  Cool ). You really can't - and should not - cut out ALL carbohydrates, or any other food group, from your diet.

The only diet that's worked consistently for me is the "No S Diet" which you may enjoy reading about here if you're not familiar with it (http://www.nosdiet.com/). As you can see, it doesn't cut out any particular group of foods but encourages moderation and developing sensible eating habits. (I hope you'll read the whole article because if you do you'll see that the author actually agrees with you in your assessment of sugar. Just doesn't forbid it *entirely*.)

It's a surprise to people but there is actually no essential requirement for humans to eat carbohydrates...

Long stretches of human evolution took place during the Ice Age when there was very little plant food to be had. Humans ate animal foods almost exclusively. It enabled our brains to develop and had other advantageous effects.

After the deep freeze was over much of the mega fauna ( large animals) became scarce probably due to over hunting. It was only then that we started scratching up plant foods. However, much of wild plant foods are not edible and need to be cooked very well to cook off the toxins. The oldest pottery found by archeologists is only 6,800 years old. Cooking is relatively a new thing therefore eating plants and starches is new to the human diet.

We have hunter gather bodies for the most part. We dont need carbs at all and when we do eat plants and starches it should be in moderation 
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« Reply #108 on: June 24, 2013, 12:26:55 PM »

I believe it's not "obesity" per se, but sugar consumption, that's responsible for a lot of the ills you're talking about. Per this article, "Does Obesity Cause Cancer"? (http://naturalweightlosstruth.com/does-obesity-cause-cancer), although obesity is definitely a health risk:

Reducing sugar will likewise have a powerful effect on your quality of life and your health as well.

And that goes for whether you’re morbidly obese or skinny as a rail.




Yes sugar exacerbates cancer for sure. But it's difficult to untether obesity and metabolic syndrome and high levels of sugar in the blood. So if you are obese you have too much sugar too. If you are not obese you should not eat any sugar.

I love these sorta posts by marc.

Quote
Yes x ws y.

Where x ws y is a pretty nonsensical statement, but just thrown out like water is wet.


Sugar exacerbates cancer.. Which part of this statement is beyond your grasp?
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« Reply #109 on: June 24, 2013, 01:49:09 PM »

Some of the people in this thread need to have a bit more sympathy and empathy than saying "they're just being lazy f****".  You're bunch of a******* for thinking this way.

For once, more and more research are finding out things about obesity that makes us a bit more open to treating it in more drastic measures than just "diet and exercise".  And yes...there is such a thing as "skinny fat".  High cholesterol and heart attacks do not just occur in obese people.  Yes, obesity is a risk factor, but not the sole issue.  If one was to choose between a high fat diet and a high carb diet, choose the former.  It is recommended to stay away from 1% and skim milk because those are the ones that actually make you fat quicker, whereas the higher fat content makes it a bit more difficult for the body to absord the lactase.

Anyways, you have to consider also the fact that obesity is a crazy spiral that is difficult to fight.  The fatter you get, the hungrier you become, the more inactive you'll become.  Will power and crazy amounts of hormones make it quite a burden to fight.

Think of homosexuality.  We have become much more careful and sensitive in their situation while showing that we cannot accept their lifestyle as "non-sinful".  You do not know what they go through, and so we feel quite inclined to be sympathetic.  Why exactly do you feel the need to throw mud on obese people.  Everyone has different genes, different environments, different situations.  Don't be a jackass and judge people like that.

Minasoliman, I would like a link to a paper on skinny fat, I have never heard of it, and the equivalency of skinny with fat makes little sense.

My personal issue in these threads has nothing to do with combating weight (which is worthwhile), but more to do with the notion of whether extending ones life 3-5 years on average is worthwhile. My fear is that we worry so much about when we die, that we miss the point of living.

Extending one's life 3-5 years?Huh  How about full healthy worthwhile life until almost a hundred, that is if you don't get cancer for some genetic reason.

The medical terminology is "metabolically obese, but normal weight" or "MONW":

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=monw

MONW is when you have someone who is skinny but eats unhealthily, and is still prone to the same problems an obese person is.  So, yes, eating healthy is in fact one of the good points of living.  Obesity and skinny fat is no way of living.  If you want to "live life" by eating crap, be my guest.  Makes you no different than cigarette smokers and alcoholics, who also "live life" for their own fleshly desires.

This is a loaded response backed up by almost no evidence. This post is sorta like formerly poor folks who do to the vicissitudes of life "make it" then make poverty a moral issue coupled with something like will.
So pubmed is not good enough for you.  Good to know.
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« Reply #110 on: June 24, 2013, 02:13:06 PM »

Long stretches of human evolution took place during the Ice Age when there was very little plant food to be had. Humans ate animal foods almost exclusively.

This is just... this is... this...
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« Reply #111 on: June 24, 2013, 02:24:38 PM »

Long stretches of human evolution took place during the Ice Age when there was very little plant food to be had. Humans ate animal foods almost exclusively.

This is just... this is... this...

Priceless?
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« Reply #112 on: June 24, 2013, 03:29:30 PM »

I don't think obesity is a disease; however, it can often be the result of a disease and/or condition. For example, many people may suffer from slow metabolisms or break their leg (s) and be incapable of exercising. Then you also have certain medications that make a person more prone to obesity. And finally, you have poverty. It's hard telling a poor family of five to eat healthy when they could buy a bag of potatoes to fry and eat all week for the price of one healthy meal.
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« Reply #113 on: June 24, 2013, 03:40:16 PM »

On a related note, when will westerners start considering the consumption of exotic, more available food sources? Take insects for example; most of the world eats crickets, they reproduce like crazy and are widely available, I tried them once and they weren't too bad. The same could also be said for rabbit. Heck, even tarantula isn't too bad if you could get past the gross-out factor that you are eating a spider the size of your hand. I once tried it at some Asian restaurant in San Francisco; tasted almost exactly like lobster or crab, except crunchier.

Perhaps switching over to these more abundant food sources would take some of the stress and high-demand off of the beef and pork market, which has had to start using unhealthy preservatives and chemicals in order to keep up with the demand.
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« Reply #114 on: June 24, 2013, 04:10:08 PM »

Long stretches of human evolution took place during the Ice Age when there was very little plant food to be had. Humans ate animal foods almost exclusively.

This is just... this is... this...

Priceless?

Really? Priceless?   

I didnt even understand his point.

You're easily entertained
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« Reply #115 on: June 24, 2013, 04:14:50 PM »

Long stretches of human evolution took place during the Ice Age when there was very little plant food to be had. Humans ate animal foods almost exclusively.

This is just... this is... this...

Priceless?

Really? Priceless?   

I didnt even understand his point.

You're easily entertained

 Grin
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« Reply #116 on: June 24, 2013, 04:38:33 PM »

I don't think obesity is a disease; however, it can often be the result of a disease and/or condition.

BINGO! +1 thank you!  Cool
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« Reply #117 on: June 24, 2013, 04:50:00 PM »



Long stretches of human evolution took place during the Ice Age when there was very little plant food to be had. Humans ate animal foods almost exclusively. It enabled our brains to develop and had other advantageous effects.


No.

No.

and No.

This is most certainly not proven by the anthropological record.  Indeed, quite the opposite.  I defy you to find any peer reviewed anthropology paper/article/book that even hints at such a thing. 

I turn an often amused but not offended blind eye to your ramblings on nutrition, but I cannot and will not sit idly by while you misrepresent the archaelogical and anthropological record re: the diet of ancient man. 

Note, articles by those selling a diet or "paleo-lifestyle" are not admissible.  I want something written by an actual anthropologist, not a medical doctor, nutritionist, or the like.
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« Reply #118 on: June 24, 2013, 05:29:00 PM »

I believe it's not "obesity" per se, but sugar consumption, that's responsible for a lot of the ills you're talking about. Per this article, "Does Obesity Cause Cancer"? (http://naturalweightlosstruth.com/does-obesity-cause-cancer), although obesity is definitely a health risk:

Reducing sugar will likewise have a powerful effect on your quality of life and your health as well.

And that goes for whether you’re morbidly obese or skinny as a rail.




Yes sugar exacerbates cancer for sure. But it's difficult to untether obesity and metabolic syndrome and high levels of sugar in the blood. So if you are obese you have too much sugar too. If you are not obese you should not eat any sugar.

I love these sorta posts by marc.

Quote
Yes x ws y.

Where x ws y is a pretty nonsensical statement, but just thrown out like water is wet.


Sugar exacerbates cancer.. Which part of this statement is beyond your grasp?

It doesn't. And you say it like water is wet.

Nothing you say is beyond my grasp, just you rarely say anything worth holding onto.
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« Reply #119 on: June 24, 2013, 05:34:40 PM »

Some of the people in this thread need to have a bit more sympathy and empathy than saying "they're just being lazy f****".  You're bunch of a******* for thinking this way.

For once, more and more research are finding out things about obesity that makes us a bit more open to treating it in more drastic measures than just "diet and exercise".  And yes...there is such a thing as "skinny fat".  High cholesterol and heart attacks do not just occur in obese people.  Yes, obesity is a risk factor, but not the sole issue.  If one was to choose between a high fat diet and a high carb diet, choose the former.  It is recommended to stay away from 1% and skim milk because those are the ones that actually make you fat quicker, whereas the higher fat content makes it a bit more difficult for the body to absord the lactase.

Anyways, you have to consider also the fact that obesity is a crazy spiral that is difficult to fight.  The fatter you get, the hungrier you become, the more inactive you'll become.  Will power and crazy amounts of hormones make it quite a burden to fight.

Think of homosexuality.  We have become much more careful and sensitive in their situation while showing that we cannot accept their lifestyle as "non-sinful".  You do not know what they go through, and so we feel quite inclined to be sympathetic.  Why exactly do you feel the need to throw mud on obese people.  Everyone has different genes, different environments, different situations.  Don't be a jackass and judge people like that.

Minasoliman, I would like a link to a paper on skinny fat, I have never heard of it, and the equivalency of skinny with fat makes little sense.

My personal issue in these threads has nothing to do with combating weight (which is worthwhile), but more to do with the notion of whether extending ones life 3-5 years on average is worthwhile. My fear is that we worry so much about when we die, that we miss the point of living.

Extending one's life 3-5 years?Huh  How about full healthy worthwhile life until almost a hundred, that is if you don't get cancer for some genetic reason.

The medical terminology is "metabolically obese, but normal weight" or "MONW":

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=monw

MONW is when you have someone who is skinny but eats unhealthily, and is still prone to the same problems an obese person is.  So, yes, eating healthy is in fact one of the good points of living.  Obesity and skinny fat is no way of living.  If you want to "live life" by eating crap, be my guest.  Makes you no different than cigarette smokers and alcoholics, who also "live life" for their own fleshly desires.

This is a loaded response backed up by almost no evidence. This post is sorta like formerly poor folks who do to the vicissitudes of life "make it" then make poverty a moral issue coupled with something like will.
So pubmed is not good enough for you.  Good to know.

Not really. Especially not in how you are framing things.

If anything, I would expect you to understand that conditions like obesity can modeled along lines of communicable disease.

See, I don't start from a radical subjectivist and individualist stance. No Christian should, as the Christian anthropology precludes it. No intelligent person should, cause nearly any sensible manner of thinking about the world and nearly every investigation into psychology and sociology precludes it.

But hey, you have your own win against being overweight a some articles to back your vilification of the obese.

I swore I wouldn't get into this thread, but I was surprised not find a more nuanced take on the matter from someone like yourself.

Oh well.
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« Reply #120 on: June 24, 2013, 05:42:52 PM »

Prevention > Cure.

The way to stop the obesity epidemic in the the first world is to realize that it can't be a matter of will.

Otherwise why isn't all the relatively wealthy world obese?

The same genes are in Europe as are in many here in America. Why is obesity arriving later to Europe and not hitting every nation to the same degree?

The fight against obesity means as a society we treat public health as a public good. This would include a complex system of including into harmful foods the long term price upfront. This usually means a tax or rather nowadays the closing of a tax loophole to stop enormous amounts of horrible food to be so cheaply purchased.

It would also mean looking at the main driver of overeating: stress.

So we would need to engineering more sane delivery of health care, more just economic living conditions, etc. See, European countries that do this, are not obese like Americans.

Every European who comes to the States for their stint where I work, puts on about 15-20 pounds.

Every American loses as much when they go to Europe.

Did their willpower change?

No.

The best way to change yourself is to change your environment.

And guess what fatties and the like, I can gain and drop weight whenever I want. So this isn't someone who doesn't understand physical discipline. This is someone who has watched too many people fail who wanted to lose weight after exerting lotsa "will".

Life doesn't need to be a battleground. So why not alter it?
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« Reply #121 on: June 24, 2013, 06:18:15 PM »

I don't think obesity is a disease; however, it can often be the result of a disease and/or condition.

BINGO! +1 thank you!  Cool

I think we are all agreed on that. Dr. Davis whose article I posted to speculates that calling it a disease will help bariatiric doctors get lap bands paid for by insurance and drug companies could get coverage for diet pills.

The disorder is hormonal imbalance ( of insulin ). The main symptom is your body holding on to fat. It has very little to do with how many calories you eat.
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« Reply #122 on: June 24, 2013, 06:20:30 PM »

Prevention > Cure.

The way to stop the obesity epidemic in the the first world is to realize that it can't be a matter of will.

Otherwise why isn't all the relatively wealthy world obese?

The same genes are in Europe as are in many here in America. Why is obesity arriving later to Europe and not hitting every nation to the same degree?

The fight against obesity means as a society we treat public health as a public good. This would include a complex system of including into harmful foods the long term price upfront. This usually means a tax or rather nowadays the closing of a tax loophole to stop enormous amounts of horrible food to be so cheaply purchased.

It would also mean looking at the main driver of overeating: stress.

So we would need to engineering more sane delivery of health care, more just economic living conditions, etc. See, European countries that do this, are not obese like Americans.

Every European who comes to the States for their stint where I work, puts on about 15-20 pounds.

Every American loses as much when they go to Europe.

Did their willpower change?

No.

The best way to change yourself is to change your environment.

And guess what fatties and the like, I can gain and drop weight whenever I want. So this isn't someone who doesn't understand physical discipline. This is someone who has watched too many people fail who wanted to lose weight after exerting lotsa "will".

Life doesn't need to be a battleground. So why not alter it?

Relatively good statement but fatally flawed basic premise IMHO

Obesity is not... repeat .. not.. caused by over eating.
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« Reply #123 on: June 24, 2013, 07:09:05 PM »

Some of the people in this thread need to have a bit more sympathy and empathy than saying "they're just being lazy f****".  You're bunch of a******* for thinking this way.

For once, more and more research are finding out things about obesity that makes us a bit more open to treating it in more drastic measures than just "diet and exercise".  And yes...there is such a thing as "skinny fat".  High cholesterol and heart attacks do not just occur in obese people.  Yes, obesity is a risk factor, but not the sole issue.  If one was to choose between a high fat diet and a high carb diet, choose the former.  It is recommended to stay away from 1% and skim milk because those are the ones that actually make you fat quicker, whereas the higher fat content makes it a bit more difficult for the body to absord the lactase.

Anyways, you have to consider also the fact that obesity is a crazy spiral that is difficult to fight.  The fatter you get, the hungrier you become, the more inactive you'll become.  Will power and crazy amounts of hormones make it quite a burden to fight.

Think of homosexuality.  We have become much more careful and sensitive in their situation while showing that we cannot accept their lifestyle as "non-sinful".  You do not know what they go through, and so we feel quite inclined to be sympathetic.  Why exactly do you feel the need to throw mud on obese people.  Everyone has different genes, different environments, different situations.  Don't be a jackass and judge people like that.

Minasoliman, I would like a link to a paper on skinny fat, I have never heard of it, and the equivalency of skinny with fat makes little sense.

My personal issue in these threads has nothing to do with combating weight (which is worthwhile), but more to do with the notion of whether extending ones life 3-5 years on average is worthwhile. My fear is that we worry so much about when we die, that we miss the point of living.

Extending one's life 3-5 years?Huh  How about full healthy worthwhile life until almost a hundred, that is if you don't get cancer for some genetic reason.

The medical terminology is "metabolically obese, but normal weight" or "MONW":

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=monw

MONW is when you have someone who is skinny but eats unhealthily, and is still prone to the same problems an obese person is.  So, yes, eating healthy is in fact one of the good points of living.  Obesity and skinny fat is no way of living.  If you want to "live life" by eating crap, be my guest.  Makes you no different than cigarette smokers and alcoholics, who also "live life" for their own fleshly desires.

This is a loaded response backed up by almost no evidence. This post is sorta like formerly poor folks who do to the vicissitudes of life "make it" then make poverty a moral issue coupled with something like will.
So pubmed is not good enough for you.  Good to know.

Not really. Especially not in how you are framing things.

If anything, I would expect you to understand that conditions like obesity can modeled along lines of communicable disease.

See, I don't start from a radical subjectivist and individualist stance. No Christian should, as the Christian anthropology precludes it. No intelligent person should, cause nearly any sensible manner of thinking about the world and nearly every investigation into psychology and sociology precludes it.

But hey, you have your own win against being overweight a some articles to back your vilification of the obese.

I swore I wouldn't get into this thread, but I was surprised not find a more nuanced take on the matter from someone like yourself.

Oh well.
Because your previous statement is not straightforward (and as usual, many of your statements are like this), I assumed you don't like how the primary issue is nutritional choices, whether obese or thin, just as you assumed I don't believe in a multifactorial basis.

And dude, if you wanted to bow out of the convo...you didn't have to say anything in the first place.  Perhaps a simple asking or clarification of my statement would suffice.  Rather than understand that the context of my statement was in response to what seemed to me an ignorant reply of how to "live life" and "extending 3-5 years", statements that clearly showed no sense in the context of this convo of healthy eating and the obesity/monw epidemic.

Oh well.
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« Reply #124 on: June 24, 2013, 07:40:26 PM »

from Choi et al:

Quote
The risk of MONW correlated inversely with the frequency of snacking and positively with the type of snack, particularly those with high carbohydrates. A high carbohydrate diet (≥73.9% of energy intake) compared to a low carbohydrate diet (<59.9% of energy intake) was positively associated with the risk of MONW (OR = 2.54; 95% CI: 1.41, 4.56), whereas a high protein diet (≥17.1% of energy intake) compared to a low protein diet (<12.2% of energy intake) reduced the risk of MONW (OR = 0.60; 95% CI: 0.39, 0.92) in females, but not in males.
CONCLUSIONS:
This study suggests that a reduced intake of carbohydrates and carbohydrate snacks were associated with a lower prevalence of MONW in females.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21186103
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« Reply #125 on: June 24, 2013, 08:36:25 PM »

from Choi et al:

Quote
The risk of MONW correlated inversely with the frequency of snacking and positively with the type of snack, particularly those with high carbohydrates. A high carbohydrate diet (≥73.9% of energy intake) compared to a low carbohydrate diet (<59.9% of energy intake) was positively associated with the risk of MONW (OR = 2.54; 95% CI: 1.41, 4.56), whereas a high protein diet (≥17.1% of energy intake) compared to a low protein diet (<12.2% of energy intake) reduced the risk of MONW (OR = 0.60; 95% CI: 0.39, 0.92) in females, but not in males.
CONCLUSIONS:
This study suggests that a reduced intake of carbohydrates and carbohydrate snacks were associated with a lower prevalence of MONW in females.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21186103

Well... I learned something. Thanks

This also demonstrates the effect of genetics of fat distribution. Some people put fat on their hips some on the belly some on arms or butt some all of the above. But some people don't hold fat like that at all. They can eat junk and still stay lean. But they can also deposit fat places you cant see like around the liver and heart, which is not good. And like what was already said they can develop metabolic syndrome and diabetes even without the extra body weight. 
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« Reply #126 on: June 24, 2013, 08:37:55 PM »

Prevention > Cure.

The way to stop the obesity epidemic in the the first world is to realize that it can't be a matter of will.

Otherwise why isn't all the relatively wealthy world obese?

The same genes are in Europe as are in many here in America. Why is obesity arriving later to Europe and not hitting every nation to the same degree?

The fight against obesity means as a society we treat public health as a public good. This would include a complex system of including into harmful foods the long term price upfront. This usually means a tax or rather nowadays the closing of a tax loophole to stop enormous amounts of horrible food to be so cheaply purchased.

It would also mean looking at the main driver of overeating: stress.

So we would need to engineering more sane delivery of health care, more just economic living conditions, etc. See, European countries that do this, are not obese like Americans.

Every European who comes to the States for their stint where I work, puts on about 15-20 pounds.

Every American loses as much when they go to Europe.

Did their willpower change?

No.

The best way to change yourself is to change your environment.

And guess what fatties and the like, I can gain and drop weight whenever I want. So this isn't someone who doesn't understand physical discipline. This is someone who has watched too many people fail who wanted to lose weight after exerting lotsa "will".

Life doesn't need to be a battleground. So why not alter it?

Relatively good statement but fatally flawed basic premise IMHO

Obesity is not... repeat .. not.. caused by over eating.

No takers ?   Smiley
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« Reply #127 on: June 24, 2013, 08:45:16 PM »

So if you are obese you have too much sugar too. If you are not obese you should not eat any sugar.

In other words,

"Reducing sugar will likewise have a powerful effect on your quality of life and your health as well.

And that goes for whether you’re morbidly obese or skinny as a rail."


Which is what I just posted.  So what are we disagreeing about? Cool

Right, so stop Smiley

There is also a catch 22. You need to consider what you mean by "Sugar"


All carbohydrates turn to sugar in your body , that is the only way your body can metabolize it. All carbs are tuned into simple sugar once you eat it.
One slice of whole wheat bread is equivalent to three teaspoons of table sugar..  

So the way of eating I have been talking about cuts out all carbohydrates (sugar) . If you cut out all carbs or keep them a very small part of your diet...You will not become obese. And if you are obese if you cut out all carbohydrates you will not stay that way. So if you really cut out "sugar" (fructose, Glucose and all Carbohydrates) you will not be obese. If you cut out all carbs you cancer risk pretty much goes away unless you smoke.

Not necessarily true (and I'm not just trying to be a contrarian  Cool ). You really can't - and should not - cut out ALL carbohydrates, or any other food group, from your diet.

The only diet that's worked consistently for me is the "No S Diet" which you may enjoy reading about here if you're not familiar with it (http://www.nosdiet.com/). As you can see, it doesn't cut out any particular group of foods but encourages moderation and developing sensible eating habits. (I hope you'll read the whole article because if you do you'll see that the author actually agrees with you in your assessment of sugar. Just doesn't forbid it *entirely*.)

I read the NoS diet stuff you recommended..

Sorry, he is putting lipstick on a pig. His basic assumptions are calorie restriction... but made simple...

When you read through his explanations you can see that he is not up on the Science. He is just re cycling the same old dogma that is no longer credible.
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« Reply #128 on: June 24, 2013, 09:24:33 PM »

from Choi et al:

Quote
The risk of MONW correlated inversely with the frequency of snacking and positively with the type of snack, particularly those with high carbohydrates. A high carbohydrate diet (≥73.9% of energy intake) compared to a low carbohydrate diet (<59.9% of energy intake) was positively associated with the risk of MONW (OR = 2.54; 95% CI: 1.41, 4.56), whereas a high protein diet (≥17.1% of energy intake) compared to a low protein diet (<12.2% of energy intake) reduced the risk of MONW (OR = 0.60; 95% CI: 0.39, 0.92) in females, but not in males.
CONCLUSIONS:
This study suggests that a reduced intake of carbohydrates and carbohydrate snacks were associated with a lower prevalence of MONW in females.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21186103

Well... I learned something. Thanks

This also demonstrates the effect of genetics of fat distribution. Some people put fat on their hips some on the belly some on arms or butt some all of the above. But some people don't hold fat like that at all. They can eat junk and still stay lean. But they can also deposit fat places you cant see like around the liver and heart, which is not good. And like what was already said they can develop metabolic syndrome and diabetes even without the extra body weight. 
Yes...indeed!  Genetics is an important factor.  Also, sometimes, you might notice that some obese people might not develop high cholesterol or diabetes yet, that it takes a long obese period for that person to develop those complications, and usually it might be because they actually do try and eat healthy for a period and exercise.

It shows that it's usually HOW one eats rather than body habitus that might be the case for cardiovascular disease, although fat distribution is also an important issue as well, and thus genetics has to be factored in.
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« Reply #129 on: June 24, 2013, 09:38:47 PM »

I just found this article and video about the carbohydrate / cancer link

http://www.dietdoctor.com/cbs-using-a-ketogenic-diet-to-starve-cancer
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« Reply #130 on: June 24, 2013, 09:41:07 PM »

So, why are diabetics told to eat a certain way if its bad for them? 
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« Reply #131 on: June 24, 2013, 09:43:26 PM »

I'm screwed no matter what I do.  Most men in my family have heart disease on both sides.  A few developed diabetes and those who did live long enough developed cancer.  So, enjoy life as best as you can, just don't be a slob about it.

Over the years I have seen study after study contradict each other.  One can only do what one thinks is best and live with those choices.  It's obvious no one really ever knows what they are talking about.
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« Reply #132 on: June 24, 2013, 10:11:32 PM »

I'm screwed no matter what I do.  Most men in my family have heart disease on both sides.  A few developed diabetes and those who did live long enough developed cancer.  So, enjoy life as best as you can, just don't be a slob about it.

Over the years I have seen study after study contradict each other.  One can only do what one thinks is best and live with those choices.  It's obvious no one really ever knows what they are talking about.

The Science is becoming clearer and clearer. What sends mixed messages are outfits like the American Heart Association who got it wrong.
It's very difficult for these people to say" We have been giving the wrong advice for over 40 years. We may have killed some of your loved ones. But we now think we have it right so please trust us"

And the drug companies want to keep the multi billion dollar scam going as long as they can. So they publish paper thin studies meant to confuse people.

What if it's all been a big fat lie?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nQuB9pcptk0
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« Reply #133 on: June 24, 2013, 10:39:09 PM »

I'm screwed no matter what I do.  Most men in my family have heart disease on both sides.  A few developed diabetes and those who did live long enough developed cancer.  So, enjoy life as best as you can, just don't be a slob about it.

Over the years I have seen study after study contradict each other.  One can only do what one thinks is best and live with those choices.  It's obvious no one really ever knows what they are talking about.

The Science is becoming clearer and clearer. What sends mixed messages are outfits like the American Heart Association who got it wrong.
It's very difficult for these people to say" We have been giving the wrong advice for over 40 years. We may have killed some of your loved ones. But we now think we have it right so please trust us"

And the drug companies want to keep the multi billion dollar scam going as long as they can. So they publish paper thin studies meant to confuse people.

What if it's all been a big fat lie?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nQuB9pcptk0
I don't worry for myself, but for my wife.  She is diabetic and it seems to be progressivly getting worse. Jim already pretty certain what natural cause will kill me and at about what age.
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« Reply #134 on: June 24, 2013, 10:43:51 PM »



Long stretches of human evolution took place during the Ice Age when there was very little plant food to be had. Humans ate animal foods almost exclusively. It enabled our brains to develop and had other advantageous effects.


No.

No.

and No.

This is most certainly not proven by the anthropological record.  Indeed, quite the opposite.  I defy you to find any peer reviewed anthropology paper/article/book that even hints at such a thing. 

I turn an often amused but not offended blind eye to your ramblings on nutrition, but I cannot and will not sit idly by while you misrepresent the archaelogical and anthropological record re: the diet of ancient man. 

Note, articles by those selling a diet or "paleo-lifestyle" are not admissible.  I want something written by an actual anthropologist, not a medical doctor, nutritionist, or the like.
You guys obviously know more about this than I do, but wouldn't all that work together?
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« Reply #135 on: June 24, 2013, 10:48:40 PM »

I'm screwed no matter what I do.  Most men in my family have heart disease on both sides.  A few developed diabetes and those who did live long enough developed cancer.  So, enjoy life as best as you can, just don't be a slob about it.

Over the years I have seen study after study contradict each other.  One can only do what one thinks is best and live with those choices.  It's obvious no one really ever knows what they are talking about.

The Science is becoming clearer and clearer. What sends mixed messages are outfits like the American Heart Association who got it wrong.
It's very difficult for these people to say" We have been giving the wrong advice for over 40 years. We may have killed some of your loved ones. But we now think we have it right so please trust us"

And the drug companies want to keep the multi billion dollar scam going as long as they can. So they publish paper thin studies meant to confuse people.

What if it's all been a big fat lie?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nQuB9pcptk0
I don't worry for myself, but for my wife.  She is diabetic and it seems to be progressivly getting worse. Jim already pretty certain what natural cause will kill me and at about what age.

Watch this about diabetes...Please

http://www.dietdoctor.com/how-to-cure-type-2-diabetes-2
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« Reply #136 on: June 25, 2013, 12:17:32 AM »

Some of the people in this thread need to have a bit more sympathy and empathy than saying "they're just being lazy f****".  You're bunch of a******* for thinking this way.

For once, more and more research are finding out things about obesity that makes us a bit more open to treating it in more drastic measures than just "diet and exercise".  And yes...there is such a thing as "skinny fat".  High cholesterol and heart attacks do not just occur in obese people.  Yes, obesity is a risk factor, but not the sole issue.  If one was to choose between a high fat diet and a high carb diet, choose the former.  It is recommended to stay away from 1% and skim milk because those are the ones that actually make you fat quicker, whereas the higher fat content makes it a bit more difficult for the body to absord the lactase.

Anyways, you have to consider also the fact that obesity is a crazy spiral that is difficult to fight.  The fatter you get, the hungrier you become, the more inactive you'll become.  Will power and crazy amounts of hormones make it quite a burden to fight.

Think of homosexuality.  We have become much more careful and sensitive in their situation while showing that we cannot accept their lifestyle as "non-sinful".  You do not know what they go through, and so we feel quite inclined to be sympathetic.  Why exactly do you feel the need to throw mud on obese people.  Everyone has different genes, different environments, different situations.  Don't be a jackass and judge people like that.

Minasoliman, I would like a link to a paper on skinny fat, I have never heard of it, and the equivalency of skinny with fat makes little sense.

My personal issue in these threads has nothing to do with combating weight (which is worthwhile), but more to do with the notion of whether extending ones life 3-5 years on average is worthwhile. My fear is that we worry so much about when we die, that we miss the point of living.

Extending one's life 3-5 years?Huh  How about full healthy worthwhile life until almost a hundred, that is if you don't get cancer for some genetic reason.

The medical terminology is "metabolically obese, but normal weight" or "MONW":

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=monw

MONW is when you have someone who is skinny but eats unhealthily, and is still prone to the same problems an obese person is.  So, yes, eating healthy is in fact one of the good points of living.  Obesity and skinny fat is no way of living.  If you want to "live life" by eating crap, be my guest.  Makes you no different than cigarette smokers and alcoholics, who also "live life" for their own fleshly desires.



And dude, if you wanted to bow out of the convo...you didn't have to say anything in the first place.  Perhaps a simple asking or clarification of my statement would suffice.  Rather than understand that the context of my statement was in response to what seemed to me an ignorant reply of how to "live life" and "extending 3-5 years", statements that clearly showed no sense in the context of this convo of healthy eating and the obesity/monw epidemic.

Oh well.

Minasoliman, are you in a bad mood. The "ignorant reply" statement was overdoing it. I am not knowledgeable about a lot of things but the destructive effects of dieting is not one of them. You need to get married to a dieter that is an extremist and switches from one diet to another.

I read two reviews and a number of research papers (mostly skimming for these) on NOMW. I did accidentally read the Choi et al paper cited above. I am pretty sure low carb dieters would not consider 60% calories from carbs as low carb. The issue of being overweight and not obese is also an issue.

We can debate about this, there are not that many papers to cover (my guess would be ~40), but I think it is beside the point.

I never promoted a diet of junk food. It is certainly not part of my lifestyle. I was promoting the idea that it is OK to have carbs with your meal, a hamburger on occasion and pizza (which can be quite nutritious).

If a worthwhile life until 100 necessitates distractions from what you believe is worthwhile (and I am not talking about what you eat), then I am out. Sixty-five is good enough.

For your information, I probably purchase prepared meals once a month. I cook everything from scratch. I always have fresh vegetables, fruit, a starch and a protein (mostly chicken and pork, beef is too expensive these days). I make my own pizza when I have it, I make my own broths for cooking, etc. I spend a couple of hours in the grocery store on the weekend doing mental algebra in conjuction with manufacturer coupons.

Somewhere up above I hopefully mentioned the notion that activity is important. I am fidgety. I read standing up while pacing, I write standing up. The only time I sit much is like  now when I am typing these posts. I have one meal a day (a big one) usually between 7:30-8:30 pm (depending on when I get home) with red wine. Breakfast is coffee and cigarettes. Lunch is water throughout the day.
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« Reply #137 on: June 25, 2013, 08:37:06 AM »

Prevention > Cure.

The way to stop the obesity epidemic in the the first world is to realize that it can't be a matter of will.

Otherwise why isn't all the relatively wealthy world obese?

The same genes are in Europe as are in many here in America. Why is obesity arriving later to Europe and not hitting every nation to the same degree?

The fight against obesity means as a society we treat public health as a public good. This would include a complex system of including into harmful foods the long term price upfront. This usually means a tax or rather nowadays the closing of a tax loophole to stop enormous amounts of horrible food to be so cheaply purchased.

It would also mean looking at the main driver of overeating: stress.

So we would need to engineering more sane delivery of health care, more just economic living conditions, etc. See, European countries that do this, are not obese like Americans.

Every European who comes to the States for their stint where I work, puts on about 15-20 pounds.

Every American loses as much when they go to Europe.

Did their willpower change?

No.

The best way to change yourself is to change your environment.

And guess what fatties and the like, I can gain and drop weight whenever I want. So this isn't someone who doesn't understand physical discipline. This is someone who has watched too many people fail who wanted to lose weight after exerting lotsa "will".

Life doesn't need to be a battleground. So why not alter it?
What I like most about this post is that it completely avoids any sort of moralism on this issue.
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« Reply #138 on: June 25, 2013, 12:40:51 PM »



Long stretches of human evolution took place during the Ice Age when there was very little plant food to be had. Humans ate animal foods almost exclusively. It enabled our brains to develop and had other advantageous effects.


No.

No.

and No.

This is most certainly not proven by the anthropological record.  Indeed, quite the opposite.  I defy you to find any peer reviewed anthropology paper/article/book that even hints at such a thing. 

I turn an often amused but not offended blind eye to your ramblings on nutrition, but I cannot and will not sit idly by while you misrepresent the archaelogical and anthropological record re: the diet of ancient man. 

Note, articles by those selling a diet or "paleo-lifestyle" are not admissible.  I want something written by an actual anthropologist, not a medical doctor, nutritionist, or the like.
You guys obviously know more about this than I do, but wouldn't all that work together?

I am not sure to whom I am responding to . Is it Shultz?

Which part do you doubt so I can find an exact answer for you. Do you doubt there was an Ice Age? Do you doubt that there was far less plant life during the deep freeze? Do you doubt that humans evolved over long stretches of the Ice Age? Do you doubt that they ate a flesh based diet and then had to switch to more plants when things warmed up and the mega fauna became scarce ( due to over hunting) .?.

Let me know exactly what it is you doubt so much and I will try to find some references.
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« Reply #139 on: June 25, 2013, 02:14:15 PM »

Here you go.. This study measures the large amounts of meat and fish that early humans ate.. This method only tests for protein.

I will look for more as I have time..

http://www.pnas.org/content/106/38/16034.full?sid=66b62715-3543-4946-93d5-8795128da153

Isotopic evidence for the diets of European Neanderthals and early modern humans
Michael P. Richardsa,b,1 and Erik Trinkausc
 Author Affiliations

aDepartment of Human Evolution, Max-Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany; bDepartment of Anthropology, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, British Columbia V6T 1Z1, Canada; and cDepartment of Anthropology, Campus Box 1114, Washington University, St. Louis, MO 63130
Edited by Richard G. Klein, Stanford University, Stanford, CA, and approved June 23, 2009 (received for review April 7, 2009)

Abstract
We report here on the direct isotopic evidence for Neanderthal and early modern human diets in Europe. Isotopic methods indicate the sources of dietary protein over many years of life, and show that Neanderthals had a similar diet through time (≈120,000 to ≈37,000 cal BP) and in different regions of Europe. The isotopic evidence indicates that in all cases Neanderthals were top-level carnivores and obtained all, or most, of their dietary protein from large herbivores. In contrast, early modern humans (≈40,000 to ≈27,000 cal BP) exhibited a wider range of isotopic values, and a number of individuals had evidence for the consumption of aquatic (marine and freshwater) resources. This pattern includes Oase 1, the oldest directly dated modern human in Europe (≈40,000 cal BP) with the highest nitrogen isotope value of all of the humans studied, likely because of freshwater fish consumption. As Oase 1 was close in time to the last Neanderthals, these data may indicate a significant dietary shift associated with the changing population dynamics of modern human emergence in Europe
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« Reply #140 on: June 25, 2013, 03:37:11 PM »

And here is a scholary study that looked into the Mega Fauna extinctions at the end of the Ice Age ( it was complicated:)

Unraveling the causes of the Ice Age megafauna extinctions

DNA ResearchWas it humans or climate change that caused the extinctions of the iconic Ice Age mammals (megafauna) such as the woolly rhinoceros and woolly mammoth? For decades, scientists have been debating the reasons behind these enigmatic Ice Age mass extinctions, which caused the loss of a third of the large mammal species in Eurasia and two thirds of the species in North America.

Now an extensive, inter-disciplinary research team, involving over 40 academic institutions around the world and led by Professor Eske Willerslev’s Centre for GeoGenetics at the Natural History Museum, University of Copenhagen, have tried to tackle the contentious question in the biggest study of its kind. And the answers are far more complicated than ever imagined.

http://geogenetics.ku.dk/latest-news/megafauna/
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« Reply #141 on: June 25, 2013, 03:56:38 PM »

Minasoliman, are you in a bad mood. The "ignorant reply" statement was overdoing it. I am not knowledgeable about a lot of things but the destructive effects of dieting is not one of them. You need to get married to a dieter that is an extremist and switches from one diet to another.

I read two reviews and a number of research papers (mostly skimming for these) on NOMW. I did accidentally read the Choi et al paper cited above. I am pretty sure low carb dieters would not consider 60% calories from carbs as low carb. The issue of being overweight and not obese is also an issue.

We can debate about this, there are not that many papers to cover (my guess would be ~40), but I think it is beside the point.

I never promoted a diet of junk food. It is certainly not part of my lifestyle. I was promoting the idea that it is OK to have carbs with your meal, a hamburger on occasion and pizza (which can be quite nutritious).

If a worthwhile life until 100 necessitates distractions from what you believe is worthwhile (and I am not talking about what you eat), then I am out. Sixty-five is good enough.

For your information, I probably purchase prepared meals once a month. I cook everything from scratch. I always have fresh vegetables, fruit, a starch and a protein (mostly chicken and pork, beef is too expensive these days). I make my own pizza when I have it, I make my own broths for cooking, etc. I spend a couple of hours in the grocery store on the weekend doing mental algebra in conjuction with manufacturer coupons.

Somewhere up above I hopefully mentioned the notion that activity is important. I am fidgety. I read standing up while pacing, I write standing up. The only time I sit much is like  now when I am typing these posts. I have one meal a day (a big one) usually between 7:30-8:30 pm (depending on when I get home) with red wine. Breakfast is coffee and cigarettes. Lunch is water throughout the day.

Yes, in a bad mood because when I started writing my first post in this thread, already people were coming out bad-mouthing obese people and making it seem like they were lazy people who are not doing enough for themselves to lose weight.  Then Orthonorm comes in and says I was overgeneralizing and criticizes me for God knows what...since I can never really make out what he is trying to argue in this website anyway half the time.  So yes...I'm in a bad mood because of the ignorance presented here.  I hope you're not one of these people.

I've seen people who are 80 that look like they're 60.  It's possible to live a loooong worthwhile life.  Today living until 65 is "short" by the standards of the advanced healthcare we have today, which makes 65 still a "livable" age.

For this post...I do not know where to begin...but there are some issues with your eating habits.  You may think you're alright, but what you are doing to yourself (occasional hamburgers and pizza, one large meal a day, cigarettes in the morning) makes you prone to not live a worthwhile life after 50 maybe.  And red wine after meals has been recently debunked as a "healthy" lifestyle due to scientific fraudulent practices by fabricating results in research.  I'm not saying to stop drinking red wine, but you'll not benefit anything from it.

And I never said a "no-Carb" diet.  I said "low-carb" diet.  BIG difference.  Pizza=HIGH carb.  I would recommend pizza and burgers once a month (what does "occasional" mean to you), because it's nothing but junk.  Beef in the US is HIGH in fat and needs to be reduced (good for you on that one).  It's very difficult to find lean beef.  Chicken or Fish are the healthiest meats, and beef and steaks need to be reduced and not taken frequently.  The carbs you take also need to be chosen wisely.  It is recommended that MOST of your carbs should be whole wheat.

And cigarettes EVERY morning?  Need I explain that one?

Water for lunch+one large dinner=diabetes.  You need frequent small meals, not one large meal a day.

What do you mean by "fidgeting"? Do you do cardio?  Do you walk maybe at least 15 minutes a day?  I heard recommendations from 30-60 minutes.  Take some time in your day with your significant other to walk around the block together.  Standing up writing is not the same as actively walking around, avoiding elevators/escalators, parking very far away, etc.  If you go work to the city and there's plenty of options for public transportation and walking, do that.

That's the difference usually between a person that lives a fulfilling life to 80 and a diseased life to 60.
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« Reply #142 on: June 25, 2013, 06:52:39 PM »

As a "fattie", I would just like to say that I'm exiting this discussion.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #143 on: June 25, 2013, 06:59:51 PM »

Let me tweak this for you if you dont mind.

You can eat moderate carb diet and just not develop ketones. But the idea is to have your body burn ketones for energy rather than glucose. If you dont go low enough in your avoidance of carbs or if you eat pizza once per month your body will select for the glucose that carbs turn into and it will burn that for energy.

A ketonic diet has been shown to prevent and even cure cancer and diabetes and the pounds will easily drop away. Kinda sorta eating low carb may not be sufficient to get these enormous benefits.
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« Reply #144 on: June 25, 2013, 11:13:58 PM »

As a "fattie", I would just like to say that I'm exiting this discussion.  Roll Eyes

I apologize if I contributed to this Theistgal. I miss you when you are gone and I am glad when you are around.
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« Reply #145 on: June 26, 2013, 01:04:58 AM »

Minasoliman, are you in a bad mood. The "ignorant reply" statement was overdoing it. I am not knowledgeable about a lot of things but the destructive effects of dieting is not one of them. You need to get married to a dieter that is an extremist and switches from one diet to another.

I read two reviews and a number of research papers (mostly skimming for these) on NOMW. I did accidentally read the Choi et al paper cited above. I am pretty sure low carb dieters would not consider 60% calories from carbs as low carb. The issue of being overweight and not obese is also an issue.

We can debate about this, there are not that many papers to cover (my guess would be ~40), but I think it is beside the point.

I never promoted a diet of junk food. It is certainly not part of my lifestyle. I was promoting the idea that it is OK to have carbs with your meal, a hamburger on occasion and pizza (which can be quite nutritious).

If a worthwhile life until 100 necessitates distractions from what you believe is worthwhile (and I am not talking about what you eat), then I am out. Sixty-five is good enough.

For your information, I probably purchase prepared meals once a month. I cook everything from scratch. I always have fresh vegetables, fruit, a starch and a protein (mostly chicken and pork, beef is too expensive these days). I make my own pizza when I have it, I make my own broths for cooking, etc. I spend a couple of hours in the grocery store on the weekend doing mental algebra in conjuction with manufacturer coupons.

Somewhere up above I hopefully mentioned the notion that activity is important. I am fidgety. I read standing up while pacing, I write standing up. The only time I sit much is like  now when I am typing these posts. I have one meal a day (a big one) usually between 7:30-8:30 pm (depending on when I get home) with red wine. Breakfast is coffee and cigarettes. Lunch is water throughout the day.

Minasoliman, before I get into commenting on your post. This is the post that got me into this thread:
Exercise doesn't help with weight loss all that much. As you expend energy you get hungry. More exercise, more eating.

Just like when people used to take a walk before a big meal to "Work up an appetite".
Of course building muscle mass will help some but most results will come from eating properly not from working out.

This particular post irks me. It is totally anecdotal from a single source (you) and metabolically makes little sense.  You should elaborate. In doing so, include expressions like "I am too exhausted to eat". A feeling that often occurs to me.

I cannot comment much on this thread because I have never, ever, had a weight problem. I am right now the same weight as when I was a freshman in high school (about 130 and I have ranged between 125-140, the low end during lent). I never paid attention to carbs, fat, fast food, etc. Is it solely genetic? Doubtful. Is it genetic at all? My guess is that it would be a minor contributor at most. Is it lifestyle? I would guess that this is the major contributor. Does a low carb diet make sense. Yes, but it is clear to me that this was never the problem.

If you have comments, I will learn something from it. My notion here is that if there is a sudden rise in obesity, it is not genetics. This is more or less an Occam's razor analysis and I know well enough that this principle often fails in biological systems.


Quote
Yes, in a bad mood because when I started writing my first post in this thread, already people were coming out bad-mouthing obese people and making it seem like they were lazy people who are not doing enough for themselves to lose weight.  Then Orthonorm comes in and says I was overgeneralizing and criticizes me for God knows what...since I can never really make out what he is trying to argue in this website anyway half the time.  So yes...I'm in a bad mood because of the ignorance presented here.  I hope you're not one of these people.
This thread is totally depressing. I do not know if I am ignorant or not. Orthonorm is often cryptic. I usually just tell him I do not understand and he clarifies his statement.

Quote
I've seen people who are 80 that look like they're 60.  It's possible to live a loooong worthwhile life.  Today living until 65 is "short" by the standards of the advanced healthcare we have today, which makes 65 still a "livable" age.
No comment. I have some thoughts about this in terms of what is right, but I am still unsure about it.

Quote
For this post...I do not know where to begin...but there are some issues with your eating habits.  You may think you're alright, but what you are doing to yourself (occasional hamburgers and pizza, one large meal a day, cigarettes in the morning) makes you prone to not live a worthwhile life after 50 maybe.  And red wine after meals has been recently debunked as a "healthy" lifestyle due to scientific fraudulent practices by fabricating results in research.  I'm not saying to stop drinking red wine, but you'll not benefit anything from it.

My intention here was to describe myself and my eating habits and all of my faults. Red wine is because I do not care for white wine.

I do not know if it is alright. This is how I have been for the past 30  years or more or let me just say I stopped eating breakfast in 1971. I stopped eating lunch in 1982. The reason was that I was more productive and I thought more clearly. I have never met anyone with this particular eating habit.

Quote
And I never said a "no-Carb" diet.  I said "low-carb" diet.  BIG difference.  Pizza=HIGH carb.  I would recommend pizza and burgers once a month (what does "occasional" mean to you), because it's nothing but junk.  Beef in the US is HIGH in fat and needs to be reduced (good for you on that one).  It's very difficult to find lean beef.  Chicken or Fish are the healthiest meats, and beef and steaks need to be reduced and not taken frequently.  The carbs you take also need to be chosen wisely.  It is recommended that MOST of your carbs should be whole wheat.

Occasional means once every two months as far as going out to get food. You might object to what I cook in the interim. Pizza is not high carb, it is a balanced meal. It depends on what you bake.

If you lived my life you would not be allowed to eat whole wheat bread. As a consolation you could eat flour-less sprouted wheat bread.

Quote
And cigarettes EVERY morning?  Need I explain that one?
No, see above.

Quote
Water for lunch+one large dinner=diabetes.  You need frequent small meals, not one large meal a day.
This is the most interesting statement that you made. Explain a priori, or preferably a reference to my eating style.

Quote
What do you mean by "fidgeting"? Do you do cardio?  Do you walk maybe at least 15 minutes a day?  I heard recommendations from 30-60 minutes.  Take some time in your day with your significant other to walk around the block together.  Standing up writing is not the same as actively walking around, avoiding elevators/escalators, parking very far away, etc.  If you go work to the city and there's plenty of options for public transportation and walking, do that.

Fidgeting, means I have a difficult time staying in one place. I pace. I walk around when I write and type when I come up with the sentence to write. I read while pacing. I find it difficult sitting for two hours watching a movie. I go up and down stairs about 10 times a day. I do not work at a desk unless I am reviewing a paper or writing a paper (usually standing up). I work standing up. You can complain that I am not using all of my muscles. But why would this not be nitpicking? I would love to use public transportation. I have the stress of rush hour commutes, but public transportation here falls off considerably at 6:00 pm and taking a bus with three transfers through rush hour traffic for 30 miles takes about 2.5 hrs. I looked this up. If I could get done routinely by 6 pm I could take a train. But that is not the case.

Quote
That's the difference usually between a person that lives a fulfilling life to 80 and a diseased life to 60.

I am not supporting my lifestyle. But I have not had a diseased life. I have been blessed in that regard.

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« Reply #146 on: June 26, 2013, 09:14:53 AM »

Minasoliman, are you in a bad mood. The "ignorant reply" statement was overdoing it. I am not knowledgeable about a lot of things but the destructive effects of dieting is not one of them. You need to get married to a dieter that is an extremist and switches from one diet to another.

I read two reviews and a number of research papers (mostly skimming for these) on NOMW. I did accidentally read the Choi et al paper cited above. I am pretty sure low carb dieters would not consider 60% calories from carbs as low carb. The issue of being overweight and not obese is also an issue.

We can debate about this, there are not that many papers to cover (my guess would be ~40), but I think it is beside the point.

I never promoted a diet of junk food. It is certainly not part of my lifestyle. I was promoting the idea that it is OK to have carbs with your meal, a hamburger on occasion and pizza (which can be quite nutritious).

If a worthwhile life until 100 necessitates distractions from what you believe is worthwhile (and I am not talking about what you eat), then I am out. Sixty-five is good enough.

For your information, I probably purchase prepared meals once a month. I cook everything from scratch. I always have fresh vegetables, fruit, a starch and a protein (mostly chicken and pork, beef is too expensive these days). I make my own pizza when I have it, I make my own broths for cooking, etc. I spend a couple of hours in the grocery store on the weekend doing mental algebra in conjuction with manufacturer coupons.

Somewhere up above I hopefully mentioned the notion that activity is important. I am fidgety. I read standing up while pacing, I write standing up. The only time I sit much is like  now when I am typing these posts. I have one meal a day (a big one) usually between 7:30-8:30 pm (depending on when I get home) with red wine. Breakfast is coffee and cigarettes. Lunch is water throughout the day.

That's the difference usually between a person that lives a fulfilling life to 80 and a diseased life to 60.


 Huh Huh

Could you clarify that, please?  It does seem like somewhat of an over-generalization.  Thank you!
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"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #147 on: June 26, 2013, 10:41:13 AM »

Minasoliman, are you in a bad mood. The "ignorant reply" statement was overdoing it. I am not knowledgeable about a lot of things but the destructive effects of dieting is not one of them. You need to get married to a dieter that is an extremist and switches from one diet to another.

I read two reviews and a number of research papers (mostly skimming for these) on NOMW. I did accidentally read the Choi et al paper cited above. I am pretty sure low carb dieters would not consider 60% calories from carbs as low carb. The issue of being overweight and not obese is also an issue.

We can debate about this, there are not that many papers to cover (my guess would be ~40), but I think it is beside the point.

I never promoted a diet of junk food. It is certainly not part of my lifestyle. I was promoting the idea that it is OK to have carbs with your meal, a hamburger on occasion and pizza (which can be quite nutritious).

If a worthwhile life until 100 necessitates distractions from what you believe is worthwhile (and I am not talking about what you eat), then I am out. Sixty-five is good enough.

For your information, I probably purchase prepared meals once a month. I cook everything from scratch. I always have fresh vegetables, fruit, a starch and a protein (mostly chicken and pork, beef is too expensive these days). I make my own pizza when I have it, I make my own broths for cooking, etc. I spend a couple of hours in the grocery store on the weekend doing mental algebra in conjuction with manufacturer coupons.

Somewhere up above I hopefully mentioned the notion that activity is important. I am fidgety. I read standing up while pacing, I write standing up. The only time I sit much is like  now when I am typing these posts. I have one meal a day (a big one) usually between 7:30-8:30 pm (depending on when I get home) with red wine. Breakfast is coffee and cigarettes. Lunch is water throughout the day.

That's the difference usually between a person that lives a fulfilling life to 80 and a diseased life to 60.


 Huh Huh

Could you clarify that, please?  It does seem like somewhat of an over-generalization.  Thank you!

And lets not forgot a diseased /debilitated life till age 104...

Welcome to 2013.. They can save people from dying so mortality rates have dropped but more and more people come out debilitated and frail. Morbidity rates have increased ( rate of Disability).

 Over 70% of people age 65 will eventually need to be cared for because they will be too sick or weak to get through a normal day.
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« Reply #148 on: June 26, 2013, 11:22:49 AM »

Minasoliman, are you in a bad mood. The "ignorant reply" statement was overdoing it. I am not knowledgeable about a lot of things but the destructive effects of dieting is not one of them. You need to get married to a dieter that is an extremist and switches from one diet to another.

I read two reviews and a number of research papers (mostly skimming for these) on NOMW. I did accidentally read the Choi et al paper cited above. I am pretty sure low carb dieters would not consider 60% calories from carbs as low carb. The issue of being overweight and not obese is also an issue.

We can debate about this, there are not that many papers to cover (my guess would be ~40), but I think it is beside the point.

I never promoted a diet of junk food. It is certainly not part of my lifestyle. I was promoting the idea that it is OK to have carbs with your meal, a hamburger on occasion and pizza (which can be quite nutritious).

If a worthwhile life until 100 necessitates distractions from what you believe is worthwhile (and I am not talking about what you eat), then I am out. Sixty-five is good enough.

For your information, I probably purchase prepared meals once a month. I cook everything from scratch. I always have fresh vegetables, fruit, a starch and a protein (mostly chicken and pork, beef is too expensive these days). I make my own pizza when I have it, I make my own broths for cooking, etc. I spend a couple of hours in the grocery store on the weekend doing mental algebra in conjuction with manufacturer coupons.

Somewhere up above I hopefully mentioned the notion that activity is important. I am fidgety. I read standing up while pacing, I write standing up. The only time I sit much is like  now when I am typing these posts. I have one meal a day (a big one) usually between 7:30-8:30 pm (depending on when I get home) with red wine. Breakfast is coffee and cigarettes. Lunch is water throughout the day.

That's the difference usually between a person that lives a fulfilling life to 80 and a diseased life to 60.


 Huh Huh

Could you clarify that, please?  It does seem like somewhat of an over-generalization.  Thank you!

And lets not forgot a diseased /debilitated life till age 104...

Welcome to 2013.. They can save people from dying so mortality rates have dropped but more and more people come out debilitated and frail. Morbidity rates have increased ( rate of Disability).

 Over 70% of people age 65 will eventually need to be cared for because they will be too sick or weak to get through a normal day.

A blogger I like to read is a proponent of what he calls "the Smith & Wesson retirement plan".  It seems to me that if one were to stop going to the doctor, not get on thousands of dollars of prescriptions, and just chillax at home that things would take their natural course and we would see morbidity rates plummet. 
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« Reply #149 on: June 26, 2013, 11:40:24 AM »

Minasoliman, are you in a bad mood. The "ignorant reply" statement was overdoing it. I am not knowledgeable about a lot of things but the destructive effects of dieting is not one of them. You need to get married to a dieter that is an extremist and switches from one diet to another.

I read two reviews and a number of research papers (mostly skimming for these) on NOMW. I did accidentally read the Choi et al paper cited above. I am pretty sure low carb dieters would not consider 60% calories from carbs as low carb. The issue of being overweight and not obese is also an issue.

We can debate about this, there are not that many papers to cover (my guess would be ~40), but I think it is beside the point.

I never promoted a diet of junk food. It is certainly not part of my lifestyle. I was promoting the idea that it is OK to have carbs with your meal, a hamburger on occasion and pizza (which can be quite nutritious).

If a worthwhile life until 100 necessitates distractions from what you believe is worthwhile (and I am not talking about what you eat), then I am out. Sixty-five is good enough.

For your information, I probably purchase prepared meals once a month. I cook everything from scratch. I always have fresh vegetables, fruit, a starch and a protein (mostly chicken and pork, beef is too expensive these days). I make my own pizza when I have it, I make my own broths for cooking, etc. I spend a couple of hours in the grocery store on the weekend doing mental algebra in conjuction with manufacturer coupons.

Somewhere up above I hopefully mentioned the notion that activity is important. I am fidgety. I read standing up while pacing, I write standing up. The only time I sit much is like  now when I am typing these posts. I have one meal a day (a big one) usually between 7:30-8:30 pm (depending on when I get home) with red wine. Breakfast is coffee and cigarettes. Lunch is water throughout the day.

That's the difference usually between a person that lives a fulfilling life to 80 and a diseased life to 60.


 Huh Huh

Could you clarify that, please?  It does seem like somewhat of an over-generalization.  Thank you!

And lets not forgot a diseased /debilitated life till age 104...

Welcome to 2013.. They can save people from dying so mortality rates have dropped but more and more people come out debilitated and frail. Morbidity rates have increased ( rate of Disability).

 Over 70% of people age 65 will eventually need to be cared for because they will be too sick or weak to get through a normal day.

A blogger I like to read is a proponent of what he calls "the Smith & Wesson retirement plan".  It seems to me that if one were to stop going to the doctor, not get on thousands of dollars of prescriptions, and just chillax at home that things would take their natural course and we would see morbidity rates plummet. 

Some people already opt for that, although not necessarily with your buddies Smith and Wesson participating.
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"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #150 on: June 26, 2013, 11:41:39 AM »

Minasoliman, are you in a bad mood. The "ignorant reply" statement was overdoing it. I am not knowledgeable about a lot of things but the destructive effects of dieting is not one of them. You need to get married to a dieter that is an extremist and switches from one diet to another.

I read two reviews and a number of research papers (mostly skimming for these) on NOMW. I did accidentally read the Choi et al paper cited above. I am pretty sure low carb dieters would not consider 60% calories from carbs as low carb. The issue of being overweight and not obese is also an issue.

We can debate about this, there are not that many papers to cover (my guess would be ~40), but I think it is beside the point.

I never promoted a diet of junk food. It is certainly not part of my lifestyle. I was promoting the idea that it is OK to have carbs with your meal, a hamburger on occasion and pizza (which can be quite nutritious).

If a worthwhile life until 100 necessitates distractions from what you believe is worthwhile (and I am not talking about what you eat), then I am out. Sixty-five is good enough.

For your information, I probably purchase prepared meals once a month. I cook everything from scratch. I always have fresh vegetables, fruit, a starch and a protein (mostly chicken and pork, beef is too expensive these days). I make my own pizza when I have it, I make my own broths for cooking, etc. I spend a couple of hours in the grocery store on the weekend doing mental algebra in conjuction with manufacturer coupons.

Somewhere up above I hopefully mentioned the notion that activity is important. I am fidgety. I read standing up while pacing, I write standing up. The only time I sit much is like  now when I am typing these posts. I have one meal a day (a big one) usually between 7:30-8:30 pm (depending on when I get home) with red wine. Breakfast is coffee and cigarettes. Lunch is water throughout the day.

That's the difference usually between a person that lives a fulfilling life to 80 and a diseased life to 60.


 Huh Huh

Could you clarify that, please?  It does seem like somewhat of an over-generalization.  Thank you!

And lets not forgot a diseased /debilitated life till age 104...

Welcome to 2013.. They can save people from dying so mortality rates have dropped but more and more people come out debilitated and frail. Morbidity rates have increased ( rate of Disability).

 Over 70% of people age 65 will eventually need to be cared for because they will be too sick or weak to get through a normal day.

Makes me ever so glad I'm not 65.
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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #151 on: June 26, 2013, 06:33:25 PM »

Before this thread goes away here is a really fine statement about Obesity from Dr. Peter Attia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMhLBPPtlrY
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« Reply #152 on: June 26, 2013, 09:25:16 PM »

Quote
If you have comments, I will learn something from it. My notion here is that if there is a sudden rise in obesity, it is not genetics. This is more or less an Occam's razor analysis and I know well enough that this principle often fails in biological systems.

Indeed it does fail, but not a bad tool to use nevertheless.  If there are obese people that are not developing diabetes or high cholesterol and thin people that are, then we have to concede that there seems to be a genetic susceptibility to getting fat easily.  We can find these two groups of people with same eating habits, same level of activity, and in fact same morbidity risks, but different body reactions to the foods we eat.  Thus, these different reactions point to genetics.

Quote
My intention here was to describe myself and my eating habits and all of my faults. Red wine is because I do not care for white wine.

I do not know if it is alright. This is how I have been for the past 30  years or more or let me just say I stopped eating breakfast in 1971. I stopped eating lunch in 1982. The reason was that I was more productive and I thought more clearly. I have never met anyone with this particular eating habit.

...

This is the most interesting statement that you made. Explain a priori, or preferably a reference to my eating style.

It's a dangerous thing to allow your body to have one major meal a day.  In essence you are bombarding your body with more than it can handle.  It's like rather than walking back and forth to your car to pick up the bags of groceries little by little, you pick up all the bags of groceries all at once, and then try closing the trunk, opening the door, and walking up the stairs all while suffering picking up the bags.  Some things will eventually fall off the floor.  Other times, you may trip.

Your body when bombarded with one meal will cause a SURGE of insulin pounding on every cell of your body.  Eventually, your cells will be like "I can't take this anymore, I refuse to effected by all this insulin I'm being hit by."  And thus you develop insulin resistance.  Frequent small meals is the healthy way to go, and the more frequent the better.

Quote
Occasional means once every two months as far as going out to get food. You might object to what I cook in the interim. Pizza is not high carb, it is a balanced meal. It depends on what you bake.

If you lived my life you would not be allowed to eat whole wheat bread. As a consolation you could eat flour-less sprouted wheat bread.

You have gluten issues?  Do you have some sort of sprue?

A pizza from what I understand by conventional wisdom is high carbs and high fat (cheese and bread, literally, with some tomato sauce).  That's not "nutritious".  You need high protein, low carb, low fat.  I would treat pizza like I would alcohol.  Needs to be taken on occasion.

Quote
Fidgeting, means I have a difficult time staying in one place. I pace. I walk around when I write and type when I come up with the sentence to write. I read while pacing. I find it difficult sitting for two hours watching a movie. I go up and down stairs about 10 times a day. I do not work at a desk unless I am reviewing a paper or writing a paper (usually standing up). I work standing up. You can complain that I am not using all of my muscles. But why would this not be nitpicking? I would love to use public transportation. I have the stress of rush hour commutes, but public transportation here falls off considerably at 6:00 pm and taking a bus with three transfers through rush hour traffic for 30 miles takes about 2.5 hrs. I looked this up. If I could get done routinely by 6 pm I could take a train. But that is not the case.

The idea is any doctor wants your heart to race a bit each day.  Doing some mild exercising in the beginning like a power walk may help, or walking up and down the stairs.  Or taking a walk with a significant other.  It's not your skeletal muscles necessarily that needs the workout.  It's your heart and blood vessels.  Skeletal muscles are a nice secondary effect, which are the same organs that could also aid in sugar control when needed.

Quote
I am not supporting my lifestyle. But I have not had a diseased life. I have been blessed in that regard.

That's great.  BUT, your lifestyle carries risks.  It accumulates on you day after day, until you become symptomatic.
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« Reply #153 on: June 26, 2013, 09:28:36 PM »

Minasoliman, are you in a bad mood. The "ignorant reply" statement was overdoing it. I am not knowledgeable about a lot of things but the destructive effects of dieting is not one of them. You need to get married to a dieter that is an extremist and switches from one diet to another.

I read two reviews and a number of research papers (mostly skimming for these) on NOMW. I did accidentally read the Choi et al paper cited above. I am pretty sure low carb dieters would not consider 60% calories from carbs as low carb. The issue of being overweight and not obese is also an issue.

We can debate about this, there are not that many papers to cover (my guess would be ~40), but I think it is beside the point.

I never promoted a diet of junk food. It is certainly not part of my lifestyle. I was promoting the idea that it is OK to have carbs with your meal, a hamburger on occasion and pizza (which can be quite nutritious).

If a worthwhile life until 100 necessitates distractions from what you believe is worthwhile (and I am not talking about what you eat), then I am out. Sixty-five is good enough.

For your information, I probably purchase prepared meals once a month. I cook everything from scratch. I always have fresh vegetables, fruit, a starch and a protein (mostly chicken and pork, beef is too expensive these days). I make my own pizza when I have it, I make my own broths for cooking, etc. I spend a couple of hours in the grocery store on the weekend doing mental algebra in conjuction with manufacturer coupons.

Somewhere up above I hopefully mentioned the notion that activity is important. I am fidgety. I read standing up while pacing, I write standing up. The only time I sit much is like  now when I am typing these posts. I have one meal a day (a big one) usually between 7:30-8:30 pm (depending on when I get home) with red wine. Breakfast is coffee and cigarettes. Lunch is water throughout the day.

That's the difference usually between a person that lives a fulfilling life to 80 and a diseased life to 60.


 Huh Huh

Could you clarify that, please?  It does seem like somewhat of an over-generalization.  Thank you!

I'm not over-generalizing.  One large meal a day for instance is a recipe for eventual disaster.  A cigarette each morning is also not healthy.  Unless you're part of the 0.001% of the genetically evolved few that we have yet to discover that can live a healthy lifestyle while smoking and eating one large meal a day. (do you feel lucky? do ya?)

If my provocative statements are scaring you, GOOD!
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 09:34:04 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #154 on: June 26, 2013, 09:46:28 PM »

Quote
If you have comments, I will learn something from it. My notion here is that if there is a sudden rise in obesity, it is not genetics. This is more or less an Occam's razor analysis and I know well enough that this principle often fails in biological systems.

Indeed it does fail, but not a bad tool to use nevertheless.  If there are obese people that are not developing diabetes or high cholesterol and thin people that are, then we have to concede that there seems to be a genetic susceptibility to getting fat easily.  We can find these two groups of people with same eating habits, same level of activity, and in fact same morbidity risks, but different body reactions to the foods we eat.  Thus, these different reactions point to genetics.

Quote
My intention here was to describe myself and my eating habits and all of my faults. Red wine is because I do not care for white wine.

I do not know if it is alright. This is how I have been for the past 30  years or more or let me just say I stopped eating breakfast in 1971. I stopped eating lunch in 1982. The reason was that I was more productive and I thought more clearly. I have never met anyone with this particular eating habit.

...

This is the most interesting statement that you made. Explain a priori, or preferably a reference to my eating style.

It's a dangerous thing to allow your body to have one major meal a day.  In essence you are bombarding your body with more than it can handle.  It's like rather than walking back and forth to your car to pick up the bags of groceries little by little, you pick up all the bags of groceries all at once, and then try closing the trunk, opening the door, and walking up the stairs all while suffering picking up the bags.  Some things will eventually fall off the floor.  Other times, you may trip.

Your body when bombarded with one meal will cause a SURGE of insulin pounding on every cell of your body.  Eventually, your cells will be like "I can't take this anymore, I refuse to effected by all this insulin I'm being hit by."  And thus you develop insulin resistance.  Frequent small meals is the healthy way to go, and the more frequent the better.

Quote
Occasional means once every two months as far as going out to get food. You might object to what I cook in the interim. Pizza is not high carb, it is a balanced meal. It depends on what you bake.

If you lived my life you would not be allowed to eat whole wheat bread. As a consolation you could eat flour-less sprouted wheat bread.

You have gluten issues?  Do you have some sort of sprue?

A pizza from what I understand by conventional wisdom is high carbs and high fat (cheese and bread, literally, with some tomato sauce).  That's not "nutritious".  You need high protein, low carb, low fat.  I would treat pizza like I would alcohol.  Needs to be taken on occasion.

Quote
Fidgeting, means I have a difficult time staying in one place. I pace. I walk around when I write and type when I come up with the sentence to write. I read while pacing. I find it difficult sitting for two hours watching a movie. I go up and down stairs about 10 times a day. I do not work at a desk unless I am reviewing a paper or writing a paper (usually standing up). I work standing up. You can complain that I am not using all of my muscles. But why would this not be nitpicking? I would love to use public transportation. I have the stress of rush hour commutes, but public transportation here falls off considerably at 6:00 pm and taking a bus with three transfers through rush hour traffic for 30 miles takes about 2.5 hrs. I looked this up. If I could get done routinely by 6 pm I could take a train. But that is not the case.

The idea is any doctor wants your heart to race a bit each day.  Doing some mild exercising in the beginning like a power walk may help, or walking up and down the stairs.  Or taking a walk with a significant other.  It's not your skeletal muscles necessarily that needs the workout.  It's your heart and blood vessels.  Skeletal muscles are a nice secondary effect, which are the same organs that could also aid in sugar control when needed.

Quote
I am not supporting my lifestyle. But I have not had a diseased life. I have been blessed in that regard.

That's great.  BUT, your lifestyle carries risks.  It accumulates on you day after day, until you become symptomatic.

Natural eating patterns may be one big meal in the evening and then left over scraps in the morning, no lunch.

When they look at traditional and hunter gatherer cultures they often eat just one big meal per day.
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« Reply #155 on: June 26, 2013, 09:50:50 PM »

Quote
If you have comments, I will learn something from it. My notion here is that if there is a sudden rise in obesity, it is not genetics. This is more or less an Occam's razor analysis and I know well enough that this principle often fails in biological systems.

Indeed it does fail, but not a bad tool to use nevertheless.  If there are obese people that are not developing diabetes or high cholesterol and thin people that are, then we have to concede that there seems to be a genetic susceptibility to getting fat easily.  We can find these two groups of people with same eating habits, same level of activity, and in fact same morbidity risks, but different body reactions to the foods we eat.  Thus, these different reactions point to genetics.

Quote
My intention here was to describe myself and my eating habits and all of my faults. Red wine is because I do not care for white wine.

I do not know if it is alright. This is how I have been for the past 30  years or more or let me just say I stopped eating breakfast in 1971. I stopped eating lunch in 1982. The reason was that I was more productive and I thought more clearly. I have never met anyone with this particular eating habit.

...

This is the most interesting statement that you made. Explain a priori, or preferably a reference to my eating style.

It's a dangerous thing to allow your body to have one major meal a day.  In essence you are bombarding your body with more than it can handle.  It's like rather than walking back and forth to your car to pick up the bags of groceries little by little, you pick up all the bags of groceries all at once, and then try closing the trunk, opening the door, and walking up the stairs all while suffering picking up the bags.  Some things will eventually fall off the floor.  Other times, you may trip.

Your body when bombarded with one meal will cause a SURGE of insulin pounding on every cell of your body.  Eventually, your cells will be like "I can't take this anymore, I refuse to effected by all this insulin I'm being hit by."  And thus you develop insulin resistance.  Frequent small meals is the healthy way to go, and the more frequent the better.

Quote
Occasional means once every two months as far as going out to get food. You might object to what I cook in the interim. Pizza is not high carb, it is a balanced meal. It depends on what you bake.

If you lived my life you would not be allowed to eat whole wheat bread. As a consolation you could eat flour-less sprouted wheat bread.

You have gluten issues?  Do you have some sort of sprue?

A pizza from what I understand by conventional wisdom is high carbs and high fat (cheese and bread, literally, with some tomato sauce).  That's not "nutritious".  You need high protein, low carb, low fat.  I would treat pizza like I would alcohol.  Needs to be taken on occasion.

Quote
Fidgeting, means I have a difficult time staying in one place. I pace. I walk around when I write and type when I come up with the sentence to write. I read while pacing. I find it difficult sitting for two hours watching a movie. I go up and down stairs about 10 times a day. I do not work at a desk unless I am reviewing a paper or writing a paper (usually standing up). I work standing up. You can complain that I am not using all of my muscles. But why would this not be nitpicking? I would love to use public transportation. I have the stress of rush hour commutes, but public transportation here falls off considerably at 6:00 pm and taking a bus with three transfers through rush hour traffic for 30 miles takes about 2.5 hrs. I looked this up. If I could get done routinely by 6 pm I could take a train. But that is not the case.

The idea is any doctor wants your heart to race a bit each day.  Doing some mild exercising in the beginning like a power walk may help, or walking up and down the stairs.  Or taking a walk with a significant other.  It's not your skeletal muscles necessarily that needs the workout.  It's your heart and blood vessels.  Skeletal muscles are a nice secondary effect, which are the same organs that could also aid in sugar control when needed.

Quote
I am not supporting my lifestyle. But I have not had a diseased life. I have been blessed in that regard.

That's great.  BUT, your lifestyle carries risks.  It accumulates on you day after day, until you become symptomatic.

Natural eating patterns may be one big meal in the evening and then left over scraps in the morning, no lunch.

When they look at traditional and hunter gatherer cultures they often eat just one big meal per day.

Hunter gatherers were more concerned about hunting...not carbs...so i can believe that perhaps they didn't develop insulin resistance the same way we do today.  But even then, hunter gatherers lived a relatively short life compared to today.  So all the complications of one big meal may not have gotten to them yet, or may have, causing renal failure and heart attacks at an early age...maybe.
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« Reply #156 on: June 26, 2013, 09:54:27 PM »

Don't the monks of Athos only eat once a day?  I'm sure they do.
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« Reply #157 on: June 26, 2013, 10:03:31 PM »

Quote
If you have comments, I will learn something from it. My notion here is that if there is a sudden rise in obesity, it is not genetics. This is more or less an Occam's razor analysis and I know well enough that this principle often fails in biological systems.

Indeed it does fail, but not a bad tool to use nevertheless.  If there are obese people that are not developing diabetes or high cholesterol and thin people that are, then we have to concede that there seems to be a genetic susceptibility to getting fat easily.  We can find these two groups of people with same eating habits, same level of activity, and in fact same morbidity risks, but different body reactions to the foods we eat.  Thus, these different reactions point to genetics.

Quote
My intention here was to describe myself and my eating habits and all of my faults. Red wine is because I do not care for white wine.

I do not know if it is alright. This is how I have been for the past 30  years or more or let me just say I stopped eating breakfast in 1971. I stopped eating lunch in 1982. The reason was that I was more productive and I thought more clearly. I have never met anyone with this particular eating habit.

...

This is the most interesting statement that you made. Explain a priori, or preferably a reference to my eating style.

It's a dangerous thing to allow your body to have one major meal a day.  In essence you are bombarding your body with more than it can handle.  It's like rather than walking back and forth to your car to pick up the bags of groceries little by little, you pick up all the bags of groceries all at once, and then try closing the trunk, opening the door, and walking up the stairs all while suffering picking up the bags.  Some things will eventually fall off the floor.  Other times, you may trip.

Your body when bombarded with one meal will cause a SURGE of insulin pounding on every cell of your body.  Eventually, your cells will be like "I can't take this anymore, I refuse to effected by all this insulin I'm being hit by."  And thus you develop insulin resistance.  Frequent small meals is the healthy way to go, and the more frequent the better.

Quote
Occasional means once every two months as far as going out to get food. You might object to what I cook in the interim. Pizza is not high carb, it is a balanced meal. It depends on what you bake.

If you lived my life you would not be allowed to eat whole wheat bread. As a consolation you could eat flour-less sprouted wheat bread.

You have gluten issues?  Do you have some sort of sprue?

A pizza from what I understand by conventional wisdom is high carbs and high fat (cheese and bread, literally, with some tomato sauce).  That's not "nutritious".  You need high protein, low carb, low fat.  I would treat pizza like I would alcohol.  Needs to be taken on occasion.

Quote
Fidgeting, means I have a difficult time staying in one place. I pace. I walk around when I write and type when I come up with the sentence to write. I read while pacing. I find it difficult sitting for two hours watching a movie. I go up and down stairs about 10 times a day. I do not work at a desk unless I am reviewing a paper or writing a paper (usually standing up). I work standing up. You can complain that I am not using all of my muscles. But why would this not be nitpicking? I would love to use public transportation. I have the stress of rush hour commutes, but public transportation here falls off considerably at 6:00 pm and taking a bus with three transfers through rush hour traffic for 30 miles takes about 2.5 hrs. I looked this up. If I could get done routinely by 6 pm I could take a train. But that is not the case.

The idea is any doctor wants your heart to race a bit each day.  Doing some mild exercising in the beginning like a power walk may help, or walking up and down the stairs.  Or taking a walk with a significant other.  It's not your skeletal muscles necessarily that needs the workout.  It's your heart and blood vessels.  Skeletal muscles are a nice secondary effect, which are the same organs that could also aid in sugar control when needed.

Quote
I am not supporting my lifestyle. But I have not had a diseased life. I have been blessed in that regard.

That's great.  BUT, your lifestyle carries risks.  It accumulates on you day after day, until you become symptomatic.

Natural eating patterns may be one big meal in the evening and then left over scraps in the morning, no lunch.

When they look at traditional and hunter gatherer cultures they often eat just one big meal per day.

Hunter gatherers were more concerned about hunting...not carbs...so i can believe that perhaps they didn't develop insulin resistance the same way we do today.  But even then, hunter gatherers lived a relatively short life compared to today.  So all the complications of one big meal may not have gotten to them yet, or may have, causing renal failure and heart attacks at an early age...maybe.

That is a popular myth. Hunter gatherers and even traditional cultures that survived into modern times are far healthier than we are. They are free of heart disease, cancer is unheard of, they were taller and more robust. They had no dental carries.  They died of trauma and infection. There was no medical care and no sanitation etc.  

Our bodies are genetically identical to theirs. We are hard wired to eat the foods they ate and it probably wouldnt hurt to follow the same eating patterns as well.

This youtube is really cute and informative. Just 5 minutes of your time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCFZoqmKf5M
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 10:04:18 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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« Reply #158 on: June 26, 2013, 10:26:13 PM »

Quote
If you have comments, I will learn something from it. My notion here is that if there is a sudden rise in obesity, it is not genetics. This is more or less an Occam's razor analysis and I know well enough that this principle often fails in biological systems.

Indeed it does fail, but not a bad tool to use nevertheless.  If there are obese people that are not developing diabetes or high cholesterol and thin people that are, then we have to concede that there seems to be a genetic susceptibility to getting fat easily.  We can find these two groups of people with same eating habits, same level of activity, and in fact same morbidity risks, but different body reactions to the foods we eat.  Thus, these different reactions point to genetics.

Quote
My intention here was to describe myself and my eating habits and all of my faults. Red wine is because I do not care for white wine.

I do not know if it is alright. This is how I have been for the past 30  years or more or let me just say I stopped eating breakfast in 1971. I stopped eating lunch in 1982. The reason was that I was more productive and I thought more clearly. I have never met anyone with this particular eating habit.

...

This is the most interesting statement that you made. Explain a priori, or preferably a reference to my eating style.

It's a dangerous thing to allow your body to have one major meal a day.  In essence you are bombarding your body with more than it can handle.  It's like rather than walking back and forth to your car to pick up the bags of groceries little by little, you pick up all the bags of groceries all at once, and then try closing the trunk, opening the door, and walking up the stairs all while suffering picking up the bags.  Some things will eventually fall off the floor.  Other times, you may trip.

Your body when bombarded with one meal will cause a SURGE of insulin pounding on every cell of your body.  Eventually, your cells will be like "I can't take this anymore, I refuse to effected by all this insulin I'm being hit by."  And thus you develop insulin resistance.  Frequent small meals is the healthy way to go, and the more frequent the better.

Quote
Occasional means once every two months as far as going out to get food. You might object to what I cook in the interim. Pizza is not high carb, it is a balanced meal. It depends on what you bake.

If you lived my life you would not be allowed to eat whole wheat bread. As a consolation you could eat flour-less sprouted wheat bread.

You have gluten issues?  Do you have some sort of sprue?

A pizza from what I understand by conventional wisdom is high carbs and high fat (cheese and bread, literally, with some tomato sauce).  That's not "nutritious".  You need high protein, low carb, low fat.  I would treat pizza like I would alcohol.  Needs to be taken on occasion.

Quote
Fidgeting, means I have a difficult time staying in one place. I pace. I walk around when I write and type when I come up with the sentence to write. I read while pacing. I find it difficult sitting for two hours watching a movie. I go up and down stairs about 10 times a day. I do not work at a desk unless I am reviewing a paper or writing a paper (usually standing up). I work standing up. You can complain that I am not using all of my muscles. But why would this not be nitpicking? I would love to use public transportation. I have the stress of rush hour commutes, but public transportation here falls off considerably at 6:00 pm and taking a bus with three transfers through rush hour traffic for 30 miles takes about 2.5 hrs. I looked this up. If I could get done routinely by 6 pm I could take a train. But that is not the case.

The idea is any doctor wants your heart to race a bit each day.  Doing some mild exercising in the beginning like a power walk may help, or walking up and down the stairs.  Or taking a walk with a significant other.  It's not your skeletal muscles necessarily that needs the workout.  It's your heart and blood vessels.  Skeletal muscles are a nice secondary effect, which are the same organs that could also aid in sugar control when needed.

Quote
I am not supporting my lifestyle. But I have not had a diseased life. I have been blessed in that regard.

That's great.  BUT, your lifestyle carries risks.  It accumulates on you day after day, until you become symptomatic.

Natural eating patterns may be one big meal in the evening and then left over scraps in the morning, no lunch.

When they look at traditional and hunter gatherer cultures they often eat just one big meal per day.

Hunter gatherers were more concerned about hunting...not carbs...so i can believe that perhaps they didn't develop insulin resistance the same way we do today.  But even then, hunter gatherers lived a relatively short life compared to today.  So all the complications of one big meal may not have gotten to them yet, or may have, causing renal failure and heart attacks at an early age...maybe.

That is a popular myth. Hunter gatherers and even traditional cultures that survived into modern times are far healthier than we are. They are free of heart disease, cancer is unheard of, they were taller and more robust. They had no dental carries.  They died of trauma and infection. There was no medical care and no sanitation etc. 

Our bodies are genetically identical to theirs. We are hard wired to eat the foods they ate and it probably wouldnt hurt to follow the same eating patterns as well.

This youtube is really cute and informative. Just 5 minutes of your time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCFZoqmKf5M

I feel like I'm watching an organic advocate video  Wink  Tongue

But honestly, I think the video makes some accuracies but also some unproven generalizations (like MS, Cancer, and Crohn's being linked to diet...but not really proven yet).  Plus, physicians do take a nutrition course.  It's mandatory.  And we are taught good medicine is preventative medicine, not drugs.

I think also the idea that pharma controls doctors is demeaning to the profession.  It's not necessarily true.  Doctors are genuinely concerned of the well-being of their patients.  If you follow along with a primary care physician as you should, you won't be told, "Here, try this drug" unless for a very specific reason.

If I can take something from the Paleo video you sent me, you haven't really disproven my point.  Their lifespan was cut short while our's are longer, and thus, we get hit with the complications, while our ancestor cavemen didn't get a chance to get those complications.  Yes, I mentioned perhaps, they did, but I also understand that they were struggling against the wild and thus papa bear and mama lion might get to them first before renal failure and heart disease.

In addition, I could also take from this video the fact that our ancestor cavemen were much more active than we are today.  They lived a lifestyle that forced them to always be on the move and hunt and have their hearts racing and the muscles strengthening.  Thus, activities that resulted in good cardiovascular health and muscular strength may have prevented insulin resistance (sorta like a ying yang...back to my analogy...their bodies were probably strong enough to withstand the insulin punch they get...their muscles were very actively involved in actually wanting to catch all the insulin they can get to take in the sugars and the protein and the fat).

Sooo....ya...and this makes no difference, but we are genetically different in other ways, but certainly you might be right about how our body processes food...yes, we're not different.  We have evolved, but perhaps not food-processing-wise yet.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 10:28:17 PM by minasoliman » Logged

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« Reply #159 on: June 26, 2013, 10:28:34 PM »

Honestly, these arguments on youtube are a lot more fun.  police
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Marc1152
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« Reply #160 on: June 26, 2013, 11:18:42 PM »

Quote
If you have comments, I will learn something from it. My notion here is that if there is a sudden rise in obesity, it is not genetics. This is more or less an Occam's razor analysis and I know well enough that this principle often fails in biological systems.

Indeed it does fail, but not a bad tool to use nevertheless.  If there are obese people that are not developing diabetes or high cholesterol and thin people that are, then we have to concede that there seems to be a genetic susceptibility to getting fat easily.  We can find these two groups of people with same eating habits, same level of activity, and in fact same morbidity risks, but different body reactions to the foods we eat.  Thus, these different reactions point to genetics.

Quote
My intention here was to describe myself and my eating habits and all of my faults. Red wine is because I do not care for white wine.

I do not know if it is alright. This is how I have been for the past 30  years or more or let me just say I stopped eating breakfast in 1971. I stopped eating lunch in 1982. The reason was that I was more productive and I thought more clearly. I have never met anyone with this particular eating habit.

...

This is the most interesting statement that you made. Explain a priori, or preferably a reference to my eating style.

It's a dangerous thing to allow your body to have one major meal a day.  In essence you are bombarding your body with more than it can handle.  It's like rather than walking back and forth to your car to pick up the bags of groceries little by little, you pick up all the bags of groceries all at once, and then try closing the trunk, opening the door, and walking up the stairs all while suffering picking up the bags.  Some things will eventually fall off the floor.  Other times, you may trip.

Your body when bombarded with one meal will cause a SURGE of insulin pounding on every cell of your body.  Eventually, your cells will be like "I can't take this anymore, I refuse to effected by all this insulin I'm being hit by."  And thus you develop insulin resistance.  Frequent small meals is the healthy way to go, and the more frequent the better.

Quote
Occasional means once every two months as far as going out to get food. You might object to what I cook in the interim. Pizza is not high carb, it is a balanced meal. It depends on what you bake.

If you lived my life you would not be allowed to eat whole wheat bread. As a consolation you could eat flour-less sprouted wheat bread.

You have gluten issues?  Do you have some sort of sprue?

A pizza from what I understand by conventional wisdom is high carbs and high fat (cheese and bread, literally, with some tomato sauce).  That's not "nutritious".  You need high protein, low carb, low fat.  I would treat pizza like I would alcohol.  Needs to be taken on occasion.

Quote
Fidgeting, means I have a difficult time staying in one place. I pace. I walk around when I write and type when I come up with the sentence to write. I read while pacing. I find it difficult sitting for two hours watching a movie. I go up and down stairs about 10 times a day. I do not work at a desk unless I am reviewing a paper or writing a paper (usually standing up). I work standing up. You can complain that I am not using all of my muscles. But why would this not be nitpicking? I would love to use public transportation. I have the stress of rush hour commutes, but public transportation here falls off considerably at 6:00 pm and taking a bus with three transfers through rush hour traffic for 30 miles takes about 2.5 hrs. I looked this up. If I could get done routinely by 6 pm I could take a train. But that is not the case.

The idea is any doctor wants your heart to race a bit each day.  Doing some mild exercising in the beginning like a power walk may help, or walking up and down the stairs.  Or taking a walk with a significant other.  It's not your skeletal muscles necessarily that needs the workout.  It's your heart and blood vessels.  Skeletal muscles are a nice secondary effect, which are the same organs that could also aid in sugar control when needed.

Quote
I am not supporting my lifestyle. But I have not had a diseased life. I have been blessed in that regard.

That's great.  BUT, your lifestyle carries risks.  It accumulates on you day after day, until you become symptomatic.

Natural eating patterns may be one big meal in the evening and then left over scraps in the morning, no lunch.

When they look at traditional and hunter gatherer cultures they often eat just one big meal per day.

Hunter gatherers were more concerned about hunting...not carbs...so i can believe that perhaps they didn't develop insulin resistance the same way we do today.  But even then, hunter gatherers lived a relatively short life compared to today.  So all the complications of one big meal may not have gotten to them yet, or may have, causing renal failure and heart attacks at an early age...maybe.

That is a popular myth. Hunter gatherers and even traditional cultures that survived into modern times are far healthier than we are. They are free of heart disease, cancer is unheard of, they were taller and more robust. They had no dental carries.  They died of trauma and infection. There was no medical care and no sanitation etc. 

Our bodies are genetically identical to theirs. We are hard wired to eat the foods they ate and it probably wouldnt hurt to follow the same eating patterns as well.

This youtube is really cute and informative. Just 5 minutes of your time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCFZoqmKf5M

I feel like I'm watching an organic advocate video  Wink  Tongue

But honestly, I think the video makes some accuracies but also some unproven generalizations (like MS, Cancer, and Crohn's being linked to diet...but not really proven yet).  Plus, physicians do take a nutrition course.  It's mandatory.  And we are taught good medicine is preventative medicine, not drugs.

I think also the idea that pharma controls doctors is demeaning to the profession.  It's not necessarily true.  Doctors are genuinely concerned of the well-being of their patients.  If you follow along with a primary care physician as you should, you won't be told, "Here, try this drug" unless for a very specific reason.

If I can take something from the Paleo video you sent me, you haven't really disproven my point.  Their lifespan was cut short while our's are longer, and thus, we get hit with the complications, while our ancestor cavemen didn't get a chance to get those complications.  Yes, I mentioned perhaps, they did, but I also understand that they were struggling against the wild and thus papa bear and mama lion might get to them first before renal failure and heart disease.

In addition, I could also take from this video the fact that our ancestor cavemen were much more active than we are today.  They lived a lifestyle that forced them to always be on the move and hunt and have their hearts racing and the muscles strengthening.  Thus, activities that resulted in good cardiovascular health and muscular strength may have prevented insulin resistance (sorta like a ying yang...back to my analogy...their bodies were probably strong enough to withstand the insulin punch they get...their muscles were very actively involved in actually wanting to catch all the insulin they can get to take in the sugars and the protein and the fat).

Sooo....ya...and this makes no difference, but we are genetically different in other ways, but certainly you might be right about how our body processes food...yes, we're not different.  We have evolved, but perhaps not food-processing-wise yet.

I think also the idea that pharma controls doctors is demeaning to the profession.

LOL  Ya think?

Much deserved IMHO

There was a scandle uncovered a year or so ago that the Pharmacitical Industry would secretly pay well thought of physicians to talk up their drugs at meetings and luncheons... they were being paid to start favorable table talk/ 

Despicable...dont get me started

 

American plains Indians slept late every morning. Hunting and gathering took them about 3 hours per day.

The Obesity epidemic coincided with a boom in interest in exercise. 

Youre guessing
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
minasoliman
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« Reply #161 on: June 26, 2013, 11:27:57 PM »

Quote
If you have comments, I will learn something from it. My notion here is that if there is a sudden rise in obesity, it is not genetics. This is more or less an Occam's razor analysis and I know well enough that this principle often fails in biological systems.

Indeed it does fail, but not a bad tool to use nevertheless.  If there are obese people that are not developing diabetes or high cholesterol and thin people that are, then we have to concede that there seems to be a genetic susceptibility to getting fat easily.  We can find these two groups of people with same eating habits, same level of activity, and in fact same morbidity risks, but different body reactions to the foods we eat.  Thus, these different reactions point to genetics.

Quote
My intention here was to describe myself and my eating habits and all of my faults. Red wine is because I do not care for white wine.

I do not know if it is alright. This is how I have been for the past 30  years or more or let me just say I stopped eating breakfast in 1971. I stopped eating lunch in 1982. The reason was that I was more productive and I thought more clearly. I have never met anyone with this particular eating habit.

...

This is the most interesting statement that you made. Explain a priori, or preferably a reference to my eating style.

It's a dangerous thing to allow your body to have one major meal a day.  In essence you are bombarding your body with more than it can handle.  It's like rather than walking back and forth to your car to pick up the bags of groceries little by little, you pick up all the bags of groceries all at once, and then try closing the trunk, opening the door, and walking up the stairs all while suffering picking up the bags.  Some things will eventually fall off the floor.  Other times, you may trip.

Your body when bombarded with one meal will cause a SURGE of insulin pounding on every cell of your body.  Eventually, your cells will be like "I can't take this anymore, I refuse to effected by all this insulin I'm being hit by."  And thus you develop insulin resistance.  Frequent small meals is the healthy way to go, and the more frequent the better.

Quote
Occasional means once every two months as far as going out to get food. You might object to what I cook in the interim. Pizza is not high carb, it is a balanced meal. It depends on what you bake.

If you lived my life you would not be allowed to eat whole wheat bread. As a consolation you could eat flour-less sprouted wheat bread.

You have gluten issues?  Do you have some sort of sprue?

A pizza from what I understand by conventional wisdom is high carbs and high fat (cheese and bread, literally, with some tomato sauce).  That's not "nutritious".  You need high protein, low carb, low fat.  I would treat pizza like I would alcohol.  Needs to be taken on occasion.

Quote
Fidgeting, means I have a difficult time staying in one place. I pace. I walk around when I write and type when I come up with the sentence to write. I read while pacing. I find it difficult sitting for two hours watching a movie. I go up and down stairs about 10 times a day. I do not work at a desk unless I am reviewing a paper or writing a paper (usually standing up). I work standing up. You can complain that I am not using all of my muscles. But why would this not be nitpicking? I would love to use public transportation. I have the stress of rush hour commutes, but public transportation here falls off considerably at 6:00 pm and taking a bus with three transfers through rush hour traffic for 30 miles takes about 2.5 hrs. I looked this up. If I could get done routinely by 6 pm I could take a train. But that is not the case.

The idea is any doctor wants your heart to race a bit each day.  Doing some mild exercising in the beginning like a power walk may help, or walking up and down the stairs.  Or taking a walk with a significant other.  It's not your skeletal muscles necessarily that needs the workout.  It's your heart and blood vessels.  Skeletal muscles are a nice secondary effect, which are the same organs that could also aid in sugar control when needed.

Quote
I am not supporting my lifestyle. But I have not had a diseased life. I have been blessed in that regard.

That's great.  BUT, your lifestyle carries risks.  It accumulates on you day after day, until you become symptomatic.

Natural eating patterns may be one big meal in the evening and then left over scraps in the morning, no lunch.

When they look at traditional and hunter gatherer cultures they often eat just one big meal per day.

Hunter gatherers were more concerned about hunting...not carbs...so i can believe that perhaps they didn't develop insulin resistance the same way we do today.  But even then, hunter gatherers lived a relatively short life compared to today.  So all the complications of one big meal may not have gotten to them yet, or may have, causing renal failure and heart attacks at an early age...maybe.

That is a popular myth. Hunter gatherers and even traditional cultures that survived into modern times are far healthier than we are. They are free of heart disease, cancer is unheard of, they were taller and more robust. They had no dental carries.  They died of trauma and infection. There was no medical care and no sanitation etc. 

Our bodies are genetically identical to theirs. We are hard wired to eat the foods they ate and it probably wouldnt hurt to follow the same eating patterns as well.

This youtube is really cute and informative. Just 5 minutes of your time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCFZoqmKf5M

I feel like I'm watching an organic advocate video  Wink  Tongue

But honestly, I think the video makes some accuracies but also some unproven generalizations (like MS, Cancer, and Crohn's being linked to diet...but not really proven yet).  Plus, physicians do take a nutrition course.  It's mandatory.  And we are taught good medicine is preventative medicine, not drugs.

I think also the idea that pharma controls doctors is demeaning to the profession.  It's not necessarily true.  Doctors are genuinely concerned of the well-being of their patients.  If you follow along with a primary care physician as you should, you won't be told, "Here, try this drug" unless for a very specific reason.

If I can take something from the Paleo video you sent me, you haven't really disproven my point.  Their lifespan was cut short while our's are longer, and thus, we get hit with the complications, while our ancestor cavemen didn't get a chance to get those complications.  Yes, I mentioned perhaps, they did, but I also understand that they were struggling against the wild and thus papa bear and mama lion might get to them first before renal failure and heart disease.

In addition, I could also take from this video the fact that our ancestor cavemen were much more active than we are today.  They lived a lifestyle that forced them to always be on the move and hunt and have their hearts racing and the muscles strengthening.  Thus, activities that resulted in good cardiovascular health and muscular strength may have prevented insulin resistance (sorta like a ying yang...back to my analogy...their bodies were probably strong enough to withstand the insulin punch they get...their muscles were very actively involved in actually wanting to catch all the insulin they can get to take in the sugars and the protein and the fat).

Sooo....ya...and this makes no difference, but we are genetically different in other ways, but certainly you might be right about how our body processes food...yes, we're not different.  We have evolved, but perhaps not food-processing-wise yet.

I think also the idea that pharma controls doctors is demeaning to the profession.

LOL  Ya think?

Much deserved IMHO

There was a scandle uncovered a year or so ago that the Pharmacitical Industry would secretly pay well thought of physicians to talk up their drugs at meetings and luncheons... they were being paid to start favorable table talk/ 

Despicable...dont get me started

 

American plains Indians slept late every morning. Hunting and gathering took them about 3 hours per day.

The Obesity epidemic coincided with a boom in interest in exercise. 

Youre guessing

I'm not guessing...you're proving exactly what I'm saying.  Hunting and gathering for 3 hrs a day.  It's recommended that a "good exercise" is at least an hour a day.  Those hunters sure are getting the requirements easily.
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Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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« Reply #162 on: June 26, 2013, 11:30:04 PM »

Speaking of, there was an article in PLOS ONE earlier this month about some neandertal from like 100,000 years ago that had cancer fibrous dysplastia.

EDIT--Sorry, wrong term.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 11:32:37 PM by Asteriktos » Logged
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« Reply #163 on: June 27, 2013, 10:46:25 AM »

Minasoliman, are you in a bad mood. The "ignorant reply" statement was overdoing it. I am not knowledgeable about a lot of things but the destructive effects of dieting is not one of them. You need to get married to a dieter that is an extremist and switches from one diet to another.

I read two reviews and a number of research papers (mostly skimming for these) on NOMW. I did accidentally read the Choi et al paper cited above. I am pretty sure low carb dieters would not consider 60% calories from carbs as low carb. The issue of being overweight and not obese is also an issue.

We can debate about this, there are not that many papers to cover (my guess would be ~40), but I think it is beside the point.

I never promoted a diet of junk food. It is certainly not part of my lifestyle. I was promoting the idea that it is OK to have carbs with your meal, a hamburger on occasion and pizza (which can be quite nutritious).

If a worthwhile life until 100 necessitates distractions from what you believe is worthwhile (and I am not talking about what you eat), then I am out. Sixty-five is good enough.

For your information, I probably purchase prepared meals once a month. I cook everything from scratch. I always have fresh vegetables, fruit, a starch and a protein (mostly chicken and pork, beef is too expensive these days). I make my own pizza when I have it, I make my own broths for cooking, etc. I spend a couple of hours in the grocery store on the weekend doing mental algebra in conjuction with manufacturer coupons.

Somewhere up above I hopefully mentioned the notion that activity is important. I am fidgety. I read standing up while pacing, I write standing up. The only time I sit much is like  now when I am typing these posts. I have one meal a day (a big one) usually between 7:30-8:30 pm (depending on when I get home) with red wine. Breakfast is coffee and cigarettes. Lunch is water throughout the day.

That's the difference usually between a person that lives a fulfilling life to 80 and a diseased life to 60.


 Huh Huh

Could you clarify that, please?  It does seem like somewhat of an over-generalization.  Thank you!

I'm not over-generalizing.  One large meal a day for instance is a recipe for eventual disaster.  A cigarette each morning is also not healthy.  Unless you're part of the 0.001% of the genetically evolved few that we have yet to discover that can live a healthy lifestyle while smoking and eating one large meal a day. (do you feel lucky? do ya?)

If my provocative statements are scaring you, GOOD!

You're not scaring me in the least.  I guess I should've been clearer about what I consider to be your over-generalization.  Sorry 'bout that.  See the highlighted part in blue above?  Well, that could be interpreted by some to imply that those who live "diseased" lives do not lead "fulfilling" ones whether they live to 20 or 120, and only those who do not live a "diseased" life have a fulfilling one.  Now, I know you didn't say that explicitly, but the implication is there.  I'm not saying that you believe that, either, but I do know and know of not a few people who think that way.

Now you guys can carry on arguing about the details.  Like I said elsewhere, who needs daytime t.v. when there are threads like this Grin?
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« Reply #164 on: June 27, 2013, 10:55:25 AM »

Every man dies.  Not every man has gangsta fries.



Block 16 - Omaha, NE!
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« Reply #165 on: June 27, 2013, 11:09:37 AM »

Quote
If you have comments, I will learn something from it. My notion here is that if there is a sudden rise in obesity, it is not genetics. This is more or less an Occam's razor analysis and I know well enough that this principle often fails in biological systems.

Indeed it does fail, but not a bad tool to use nevertheless.  If there are obese people that are not developing diabetes or high cholesterol and thin people that are, then we have to concede that there seems to be a genetic susceptibility to getting fat easily.  We can find these two groups of people with same eating habits, same level of activity, and in fact same morbidity risks, but different body reactions to the foods we eat.  Thus, these different reactions point to genetics.

Quote
My intention here was to describe myself and my eating habits and all of my faults. Red wine is because I do not care for white wine.

I do not know if it is alright. This is how I have been for the past 30  years or more or let me just say I stopped eating breakfast in 1971. I stopped eating lunch in 1982. The reason was that I was more productive and I thought more clearly. I have never met anyone with this particular eating habit.

...

This is the most interesting statement that you made. Explain a priori, or preferably a reference to my eating style.

It's a dangerous thing to allow your body to have one major meal a day.  In essence you are bombarding your body with more than it can handle.  It's like rather than walking back and forth to your car to pick up the bags of groceries little by little, you pick up all the bags of groceries all at once, and then try closing the trunk, opening the door, and walking up the stairs all while suffering picking up the bags.  Some things will eventually fall off the floor.  Other times, you may trip.

Your body when bombarded with one meal will cause a SURGE of insulin pounding on every cell of your body.  Eventually, your cells will be like "I can't take this anymore, I refuse to effected by all this insulin I'm being hit by."  And thus you develop insulin resistance.  Frequent small meals is the healthy way to go, and the more frequent the better.

Quote
Occasional means once every two months as far as going out to get food. You might object to what I cook in the interim. Pizza is not high carb, it is a balanced meal. It depends on what you bake.

If you lived my life you would not be allowed to eat whole wheat bread. As a consolation you could eat flour-less sprouted wheat bread.

You have gluten issues?  Do you have some sort of sprue?

A pizza from what I understand by conventional wisdom is high carbs and high fat (cheese and bread, literally, with some tomato sauce).  That's not "nutritious".  You need high protein, low carb, low fat.  I would treat pizza like I would alcohol.  Needs to be taken on occasion.

Quote
Fidgeting, means I have a difficult time staying in one place. I pace. I walk around when I write and type when I come up with the sentence to write. I read while pacing. I find it difficult sitting for two hours watching a movie. I go up and down stairs about 10 times a day. I do not work at a desk unless I am reviewing a paper or writing a paper (usually standing up). I work standing up. You can complain that I am not using all of my muscles. But why would this not be nitpicking? I would love to use public transportation. I have the stress of rush hour commutes, but public transportation here falls off considerably at 6:00 pm and taking a bus with three transfers through rush hour traffic for 30 miles takes about 2.5 hrs. I looked this up. If I could get done routinely by 6 pm I could take a train. But that is not the case.

The idea is any doctor wants your heart to race a bit each day.  Doing some mild exercising in the beginning like a power walk may help, or walking up and down the stairs.  Or taking a walk with a significant other.  It's not your skeletal muscles necessarily that needs the workout.  It's your heart and blood vessels.  Skeletal muscles are a nice secondary effect, which are the same organs that could also aid in sugar control when needed.

Quote
I am not supporting my lifestyle. But I have not had a diseased life. I have been blessed in that regard.

That's great.  BUT, your lifestyle carries risks.  It accumulates on you day after day, until you become symptomatic.

Natural eating patterns may be one big meal in the evening and then left over scraps in the morning, no lunch.

When they look at traditional and hunter gatherer cultures they often eat just one big meal per day.

Hunter gatherers were more concerned about hunting...not carbs...so i can believe that perhaps they didn't develop insulin resistance the same way we do today.  But even then, hunter gatherers lived a relatively short life compared to today.  So all the complications of one big meal may not have gotten to them yet, or may have, causing renal failure and heart attacks at an early age...maybe.

That is a popular myth. Hunter gatherers and even traditional cultures that survived into modern times are far healthier than we are. They are free of heart disease, cancer is unheard of, they were taller and more robust. They had no dental carries.  They died of trauma and infection. There was no medical care and no sanitation etc. 

Our bodies are genetically identical to theirs. We are hard wired to eat the foods they ate and it probably wouldnt hurt to follow the same eating patterns as well.

This youtube is really cute and informative. Just 5 minutes of your time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCFZoqmKf5M

I feel like I'm watching an organic advocate video  Wink  Tongue

But honestly, I think the video makes some accuracies but also some unproven generalizations (like MS, Cancer, and Crohn's being linked to diet...but not really proven yet).  Plus, physicians do take a nutrition course.  It's mandatory.  And we are taught good medicine is preventative medicine, not drugs.

I think also the idea that pharma controls doctors is demeaning to the profession.  It's not necessarily true.  Doctors are genuinely concerned of the well-being of their patients.  If you follow along with a primary care physician as you should, you won't be told, "Here, try this drug" unless for a very specific reason.

If I can take something from the Paleo video you sent me, you haven't really disproven my point.  Their lifespan was cut short while our's are longer, and thus, we get hit with the complications, while our ancestor cavemen didn't get a chance to get those complications.  Yes, I mentioned perhaps, they did, but I also understand that they were struggling against the wild and thus papa bear and mama lion might get to them first before renal failure and heart disease.

In addition, I could also take from this video the fact that our ancestor cavemen were much more active than we are today.  They lived a lifestyle that forced them to always be on the move and hunt and have their hearts racing and the muscles strengthening.  Thus, activities that resulted in good cardiovascular health and muscular strength may have prevented insulin resistance (sorta like a ying yang...back to my analogy...their bodies were probably strong enough to withstand the insulin punch they get...their muscles were very actively involved in actually wanting to catch all the insulin they can get to take in the sugars and the protein and the fat).

Sooo....ya...and this makes no difference, but we are genetically different in other ways, but certainly you might be right about how our body processes food...yes, we're not different.  We have evolved, but perhaps not food-processing-wise yet.

I think also the idea that pharma controls doctors is demeaning to the profession.

LOL  Ya think?

Much deserved IMHO

There was a scandle uncovered a year or so ago that the Pharmacitical Industry would secretly pay well thought of physicians to talk up their drugs at meetings and luncheons... they were being paid to start favorable table talk/ 

Despicable...dont get me started

 

American plains Indians slept late every morning. Hunting and gathering took them about 3 hours per day.

The Obesity epidemic coincided with a boom in interest in exercise. 

Youre guessing

I'm not guessing...you're proving exactly what I'm saying.  Hunting and gathering for 3 hrs a day.  It's recommended that a "good exercise" is at least an hour a day.  Those hunters sure are getting the requirements easily.

But the principle under lying your observation may not be sound. Correlation does not prove causation.

Surely you must agree that  exercise each day will not be the primary cause that prevents Cancer, Heart Disease, infertility, Obesity, metabolic syndrome, shorting of build, dental carries, narrow dental arch, etc. Exercise is secondary, diet is primary.

For example, I will link you to a documentary done by the Canadian Broadcast System about Dr. Jay Wortman  who is in their public health system and is responsible for a large area in the Canadian Northwest that includes many Indian ( "First Nation") Tribes.

They suffer greatly from all the modern illnesses especially obesity and diabetes and heart problems. Indians are only a few generations away from being Hunter Gatherers so switching to the Standard Western Diet ( SAD) has hit them very hard.

He took a tribe and put them on a Low Carb High Fat diet, which basically meant going back to their traditional ways of eating which included lots of fat. The pounds dropped off, the diabetes went away, with no difference in exercise.

Here is a faq by Dr. Wortman about it:

 http://gabriolan.ca/2011/08/29/big-fat-native-diet/

Here is the documentary in 3 parts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjTmdvFH3gQ
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Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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« Reply #166 on: June 27, 2013, 11:17:11 AM »

Every man dies.  Not every man has gangsta fries.



Block 16 - Omaha, NE!

Now, that got the ol' salivary glands workin' overtime!  Grin Grin  "Gangsta fries"--classic!!
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« Reply #167 on: June 27, 2013, 11:19:35 AM »

Speaking of, there was an article in PLOS ONE earlier this month about some neandertal from like 100,000 years ago that had cancer fibrous dysplastia.

EDIT--Sorry, wrong term.

There was a study done in 2000 of 229 remaining hunter gatherer cultures. There are also accounts from the early 20th century of the state of health of many isolated traditional peoples.. No cancer. no Heart problems etc. We can  see see from the record of Paleolithic remains, strong bones, tall and lean builds ( taller than us today), no sign of Cancer...ever.

In fact, switching to a Low Carb diet greatly inhibits cancer when it is done today as a therapy. The results speak for themselves.


So the evolutionary template for nutrition is a reasonable way to approach this issue. It needs continued testing but so far the studies and clinical results have pointed to it's validity more and more as time goes by. That is really all you can ask for at this point.
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« Reply #168 on: June 27, 2013, 01:15:37 PM »

Every man dies.  Not every man has gangsta fries.



Block 16 - Omaha, NE!

Now, that got the ol' salivary glands workin' overtime!  Grin Grin  "Gangsta fries"--classic!!

The gangsta fries are on the left, dirty fries on the right (crossthread to the bacteria on food thread...)  They were in fact, pretty gangsta as far as fries go.  Green onions, special sauce, and pork rinds on top of seasoned fries.  I am getting the poutine next time I go (hopefully tomorrow).
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« Reply #169 on: June 27, 2013, 03:14:47 PM »

Every man dies.  Not every man has gangsta fries.



Block 16 - Omaha, NE!

Now, that got the ol' salivary glands workin' overtime!  Grin Grin  "Gangsta fries"--classic!!

The gangsta fries are on the left, dirty fries on the right (crossthread to the bacteria on food thread...)&nb