Author Topic: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way  (Read 1271 times)

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Offline Justin Kissel

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You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« on: June 19, 2013, 06:20:23 PM »
CMU study shows emotions can be identified through brain scans

For the first time, people's emotions can be identified through scans of their brain activity, according to a new study by Carnegie Mellon University scientists...

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2013, 07:17:31 PM »
I positively will.
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Offline theistgal

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2013, 07:18:36 PM »
Non serviam.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2013, 07:20:08 PM »
I had assumed this would have been possible as soon as the fMRI entered use.

What took them so long?
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2013, 07:21:14 PM »
I had assumed this would have been possible as soon as the fMRI entered use.

What took them so long?

Other than this is nonsense?

Not much.
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2013, 07:23:52 PM »
I had assumed this would have been possible as soon as the fMRI entered use.

What took them so long?

Other than this is nonsense?

Not much.

If neuroscientists concluded that most people believed that water was wet... you'd post in the thread saying that it was quackery and that they probably relied on flawed meta-analyses.  :P

Offline orthonorm

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2013, 07:27:09 PM »
I had assumed this would have been possible as soon as the fMRI entered use.

What took them so long?

Other than this is nonsense?

Not much.

If neuroscientists concluded that most people believed that water was wet... you'd post in the thread saying that it was quackery and that they probably relied on flawed meta-analyses.  :P

Actually, this has been laughed at by even worse than myself, like people who work in the field. Some NPR interview with "neuroscientists".

All this stuff relies on stupidity of the worst sort. But it is useful enough to monetize and further discipline us, that is that really matters.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 07:27:30 PM by orthonorm »
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2013, 07:32:33 PM »
I'm curious as to what you think the problem (nonsense/stupidity) is...

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2013, 07:33:16 PM »
I had assumed this would have been possible as soon as the fMRI entered use.

What took them so long?

Other than this is nonsense?

Not much.
I didn't read the article.

Does it claim more than the ability to recognize fear/anger, etc?
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2013, 07:34:03 PM »
It's vague... the whole story is only like 14.4 words long.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Offline orthonorm

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2013, 07:42:50 PM »
I'm curious as to what you think the problem (nonsense/stupidity) is...

Emotion in any meaningful sense of the word. As you should know I am certainly a materialist, so this not based on weird notion of a supernatural mind incapable of being known, I am just not a reductionist when it comes to the material.

Emotion in any non nonsense manner of use introduces subjectivity and thus the irreducibility of the reflective nature of the subject.

Really, what is the technology really going to be used for? From the stuff I hear about what the Chinese are working on, I ain't too excited about it.

Let's say this tech approaches the precision and accuracy of Madame Curry up the street who will tell me about myself via palm reading--she is quite excellent, actually--so what?

And what if I decide the machine is wrong? See Philip K. Dick.

 
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2013, 07:46:29 PM »
Here was some of the work they are building on:

« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 07:47:01 PM by orthonorm »
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2013, 07:50:08 PM »
Here is another "brain scan":

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Offline Sinful Hypocrite

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2013, 07:52:30 PM »
Lie detectors are still used even though they are not able to accurately do what they are used for. They can be considered quack science,

We can also see emotions without a machine.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2013, 07:53:25 PM »
Oh the gall for them not to cite their sources:

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Offline orthonorm

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2013, 07:57:06 PM »
Lie detectors are still used even though they are not able to accurately do what they are used for. They can be considered quack science,

We can also see emotions without a machine.

Ya think?

I could see how this might be helpful in some limited sense within the medical profession. But let's not get crazy and start talking about emotions and "brain scans".

Man was once said to be the measure of all things. Guess things are taking their revenge and all things will soon be measuring man.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 07:57:29 PM by orthonorm »
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Offline Ashman618

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2013, 08:29:07 PM »
I'm curious as to what you think the problem (nonsense/stupidity) is...

Emotion in any meaningful sense of the word. As you should know I am certainly a materialist, so this not based on weird notion of a supernatural mind incapable of being known, I am just not a reductionist when it comes to the material.

Emotion in any non nonsense manner of use introduces subjectivity and thus the irreducibility of the reflective nature of the subject.

Really, what is the technology really going to be used for? From the stuff I hear about what the Chinese are working on, I ain't too excited about it.

Let's say this tech approaches the precision and accuracy of Madame Curry up the street who will tell me about myself via palm reading--she is quite excellent, actually--so what?

And what if I decide the machine is wrong? See Philip K. Dick.

 

When you refer to yourself as a materialist, how does this influance your view of the world.

And what do you concider to be material? Does this mean you don't consider things commonly referred to as immaterial, angels/deamons, as being a reality; or do you believe them to have a material cause?

Offline orthonorm

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2013, 08:31:07 PM »
I'm curious as to what you think the problem (nonsense/stupidity) is...

Emotion in any meaningful sense of the word. As you should know I am certainly a materialist, so this not based on weird notion of a supernatural mind incapable of being known, I am just not a reductionist when it comes to the material.

Emotion in any non nonsense manner of use introduces subjectivity and thus the irreducibility of the reflective nature of the subject.

Really, what is the technology really going to be used for? From the stuff I hear about what the Chinese are working on, I ain't too excited about it.

Let's say this tech approaches the precision and accuracy of Madame Curry up the street who will tell me about myself via palm reading--she is quite excellent, actually--so what?

And what if I decide the machine is wrong? See Philip K. Dick.

 

When you refer to yourself as a materialist, how does this influance your view of the world.

We'll let the machines tell you.

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Offline orthonorm

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2013, 08:32:22 PM »
When you refer to yourself as a materialist, how does this influance your view of the world.

Seriously, this is an extremely loaded question and I'll spare you the long winded answer and everyone else who has already suffered its variation.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2013, 08:44:38 PM »
And what do you concider to be material? Does this mean you don't consider things commonly referred to as immaterial, angels/deamons, as being a reality; or do you believe them to have a material cause?

There are two answers.

If you take matter seriously, then I think you find that its connotations are bit more broad than the silly notions we typical use to discuss it. I would suggest researching its etymology. In this case, I think you can man an argument for a Christian materialism, but I don't think it would be worth effort and arguably an exercise in a bit a sophistry as I don't think it do much more than perhaps jar some out of the prejudice people have against matter.

I was primarily referring here to realm of what the "neuroscientists" claim to study, something like the "mind". In that case, I don't think an amaterial account for the mind is necessary to properly critique what they are doing. I think one can remain quite much within the material world so to speak and deal with the hifalutin charlatans well.

This isn't to say they don't have their proper field of study, they do. After all if you take a hammer to my noggin, good bye mind. On a good day I lose it for about eight hours. If these "neuroscientists" want to study such phenomena that is one thing, the problem I have is when we start extrapolating from measurements something like phenomenon of the subject. But that is not to say I think the subject is necessarily amaterial, supermaterial, etc. I just think it is radically irreducible for a number reasons (demonstrations) and that is to say transcendent. So if put into a corner and asked: "Hey orthonorm, where do you stand on the question of the mind in two words?" I would say I am a transcendental materialist and bite my tongue really hard and ask the machine how I was really feeling.

« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 08:46:26 PM by orthonorm »
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2013, 09:06:42 PM »
LOL!

They shudda stuck with the abridged version.

Quote
One challenge for the research team was find a way to repeatedly and reliably evoke different emotional states from the participants. Traditional approaches, such as showing subjects emotion-inducing film clips, would likely have been unsuccessful because the impact of film clips diminishes with repeated display. The researchers solved the problem by recruiting actors from CMU’s School of Drama.
“Our big breakthrough was my colleague Karim Kassam’s idea of testing actors, who are experienced at cycling through emotional states. We were fortunate, in that respect, that CMU has a superb drama school,” said George Loewenstein, the Herbert A. Simon University Professor of Economics and Psychology.
For the study, 10 actors were scanned at CMU’s Scientific Imaging & Brain Research Center while viewing the words of nine emotions: anger, disgust, envy, fear, happiness, lust, pride, sadness and shame. While inside the fMRI scanner, the actors were instructed to enter each of these emotional states multiple times, in random order.

Let's get 10 drama students and pretend we can model human emotional response! Science!

Quote
“Despite manifest differences between people’s psychology, different people tend to neurally encode emotions in remarkably similar ways,” noted Amanda Markey, a graduate student in the Department of Social and Decision Sciences.

Well, that settles it!

http://www.cmu.edu/news/stories/archives/2013/june/june19_identifyingemotions.html

Really, they should have led with:

CMU Neuroscientists Believed to have Elicited Sincere Emotional Reaction in a Drama Student
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 09:07:14 PM by orthonorm »
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2013, 09:07:48 PM »
*,

This is where you post the youmad? thing.
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Offline vamrat

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2013, 09:03:09 AM »
I read a study that you can look at a person's face and tell what their emotions with a reasonable degree of certainty. 
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Offline J Michael

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2013, 09:41:11 AM »
I read a study that you can look at a person's face and tell what their emotions with a reasonable degree of certainty. 

Unless they're asleep or dead, that is.  Or, unless you are.
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Offline Papist

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2013, 01:28:47 PM »
I thought we could already do this. Of course there would be physical changes in our brain related to our emotional experiences. Of course scientists would eventually be able to detect these. Though, I am not sure how those physical changes are anything like the experience of having an emotion at all.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2013, 01:57:29 PM »
I thought we could already do this. Of course there would be physical changes in our brain related to our emotional experiences. Of course scientists would eventually be able to detect these. Though, I am not sure how those physical changes are anything like the experience of having an emotion at all.

Dude welcome to "analytical philosophy" / cog-sci.

Can you sufficiently describe blue to a blind person that they would "experience" blue exactly like you do?
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Offline Ashman618

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2013, 03:18:43 PM »
I thought we could already do this. Of course there would be physical changes in our brain related to our emotional experiences. Of course scientists would eventually be able to detect these. Though, I am not sure how those physical changes are anything like the experience of having an emotion at all.

Dude welcome to "analytical philosophy" / cog-sci.

Can you sufficiently describe blue to a blind person that they would "experience" blue exactly like you do?

If I could find out the patten of neural-synaptic firing that occurs when a person sees blue, I might be able to stimulate a blind persons brain just right to allow them person to see blue

Offline Ashman618

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2013, 03:21:04 PM »
Though I'm not sure weather spending money on brain scans to help blind people experiance blue has the most immediate benefit

Offline J Michael

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2013, 03:28:52 PM »
Though I'm not sure weather spending money on brain scans to help blind people experiance blue has the most immediate benefit

Blue is nice, but a little overrated. 8)
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2013, 03:34:00 PM »
I thought we could already do this. Of course there would be physical changes in our brain related to our emotional experiences. Of course scientists would eventually be able to detect these. Though, I am not sure how those physical changes are anything like the experience of having an emotion at all.

Dude welcome to "analytical philosophy" / cog-sci.

Can you sufficiently describe blue to a blind person that they would "experience" blue exactly like you do?

If I could find out the patten of neural-synaptic firing that occurs when a person sees blue, I might be able to stimulate a blind persons brain just right to allow them person to see blue

But this assumes blue is a function some neurological "firing".

This is the new essentialism and it probably the worst version of it ever.
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2013, 03:52:19 PM »
After almost being thwarted by early posts, this thread started to come around with the negativity... but it's not enough! Come on people, get nasty. Where are the diatribes about scientism and how we aren't just a collection of chemicals and how science will never be able to explain love or faith?  :police:

Offline vamrat

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2013, 04:30:58 PM »
After almost being thwarted by early posts, this thread started to come around with the negativity... but it's not enough! Come on people, get nasty. Where are the diatribes about scientism and how we aren't just a collection of chemicals and how science will never be able to explain love or faith?  :police:

How 'bout you close your pie hole and bug off?  What moron posts something like this anyway? 












(better?)
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2013, 04:37:58 PM »
Would work better if said by someone with a different signature, Mr. peace maker.  :police:

Offline Jonathan Gress

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2013, 04:49:41 PM »
Weird, I actually agree with what orthonorm has been saying so far.

I think some Fathers believed, or allowed, that the soul might be "material". It is probably worth remembering that there was a strict division in ancient natural philosophy between material and immaterial, but the distinction is pretty much blurred in modern physics. What exactly is "material" when all matter can be resolved into energy?

Offline vamrat

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2013, 05:28:23 PM »
Would work better if said by someone with a different signature, Mr. peace maker.  :police:

I was trying to keep the peace.  You were complaining that no one was being negative, so I obliged you!  You people are never happy with nothing!
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2013, 05:34:40 PM »
Would work better if said by someone with a different signature, Mr. peace maker.  :police:

I was trying to keep the peace.  You were complaining that no one was being negative, so I obliged you!  You people are never happy with nothing!

You think I really consider you a peacemaker? Ha! Your avatar betrays you!

Offline Ashman618

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2013, 06:09:05 PM »
So a reductionist worldview, is a bad thing to hold to?

Offline Papist

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2013, 07:57:44 PM »
I thought we could already do this. Of course there would be physical changes in our brain related to our emotional experiences. Of course scientists would eventually be able to detect these. Though, I am not sure how those physical changes are anything like the experience of having an emotion at all.

Dude welcome to "analytical philosophy" / cog-sci.

Can you sufficiently describe blue to a blind person that they would "experience" blue exactly like you do?

If I could find out the patten of neural-synaptic firing that occurs when a person sees blue, I might be able to stimulate a blind persons brain just right to allow them person to see blue

But this assumes blue is a function some neurological "firing".

This is the new essentialism and it probably the worst version of it ever.
The problem is assuming that the experience of seeing blue and and the neurological "firing" are the same thing, since the two are entirely unalike.
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Offline Papist

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2013, 07:58:36 PM »
After almost being thwarted by early posts, this thread started to come around with the negativity... but it's not enough! Come on people, get nasty. Where are the diatribes about scientism and how we aren't just a collection of chemicals and how science will never be able to explain love or faith?  :police:
well scientism is stupid. But that is an entirely different conversation.
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Offline Papist

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2013, 08:13:21 PM »
I thought we could already do this. Of course there would be physical changes in our brain related to our emotional experiences. Of course scientists would eventually be able to detect these. Though, I am not sure how those physical changes are anything like the experience of having an emotion at all.

Dude welcome to "analytical philosophy" / cog-sci.

Can you sufficiently describe blue to a blind person that they would "experience" blue exactly like you do?
Of course not. That's why I'm not a Platonist.  :D Something I think you would be glad to hear.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 08:14:19 PM by Papist »
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Offline vamrat

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Re: You Will Respond To This Thread In a Negative Way
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2013, 11:57:29 AM »
Would work better if said by someone with a different signature, Mr. peace maker.  :police:

I was trying to keep the peace.  You were complaining that no one was being negative, so I obliged you!  You people are never happy with nothing!

You think I really consider you a peacemaker? Ha! Your avatar betrays you!

I think I was trying to say something about the duality of man, sir!
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.