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Author Topic: Oriental Orthodxy and Charismatism  (Read 1478 times) Average Rating: 0
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Apu
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« on: June 18, 2013, 12:43:56 PM »

Can anybody give me a good Oriental Orthodox apologetic article against the "Charismatic movement"? 
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« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2013, 02:05:02 PM »

What do you mean by Charismatic Movement ?

1) Are you talking about people who have rejected Orthodox worship, sacraments and the grace of priesthood; and have adopted a Protestant / Pentecostal doctrine and style of worship ?

OR

2) Are you talking about people while still rooted in Orthodox worship and sacraments; also on occasion finding a more expressive way of expressing their devotion by clapping of hands, singing aloud, dancing and having fiery speeches .. etc ?

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« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2013, 02:07:46 PM »

Mathew,
            If it was the first group , I think it should have been Pentecoastal independent churches and not Oriental Orthodox.I am asking about the second, which in some instances lead to the formation of the first.
Apu jose
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« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2013, 03:08:18 PM »

Mathew,
            If it was the first group , I think it should have been Pentecoastal independent churches and not Oriental Orthodox.I am asking about the second, which in some instances lead to the formation of the first.
Apu jose
I agree. Both groups are dangerous.
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« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2013, 07:46:15 PM »

I am in agreement with both of you. I also find these type of worship by Orthodox faithful dangerous. But now it is not that rare to find Orthodox priests and in some cases even Bishops leading people in these kind of worship services; during Bible classes. Even when you find it distasteful, it is difficult to argue that it is un-Orthodox.

Psalm 47:1-2
Quote
Oh, clap your hands, all you peoples!
Shout to God with the voice of triumph!
For the Lord Most High is awesome;
He is a great King over all the earth.

Psalm 98:4
Quote

Shout joyfully to the Lord, all the earth;
Break forth in song, rejoice, and sing praises.

These and many scripture passages are used to justify it. Though personally I find it distateful, have come to accept it, as long as this kind of worship is not used as a substitute for divine liturgy and canonical prayers; but something done in addition to those.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 07:46:49 PM by dhinuus » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2013, 07:59:46 PM »

These and many scripture passages are used to justify it.

And how many of them are circumcised?  I hope they will have their non-adherence to that very important Scriptural practice corrected, but I suppose they won't be clapping and shouting joyfully (though I imagine there will be shouting). 

Sadly, we have clergy who try to keep our people from leaving our Churches for the charismatic groups by trying to imitate their gimmicks, and very poorly at that.  Their efforts would be better spent passing on real Orthodoxy and Orthopraxis rather than by pretending to be Pentecostals with sacraments.  Every time they try to imitate what others do and find "Scriptural justifications" for those things instead of doing what we ought to do, they make our people think that there's something wrong with our faith and something right with that of the heretics. 

And that's to say nothing of how we "do ministry" in the larger context.  Many of these groups attract people because they do what Roman Catholics call the "spiritual and corporal works of mercy".  Our people "dump all that stuff" on the priest, who can't do it all because he's one person, and so nothing gets done; then the people complain about the Church not doing enough and "look at the Pentecostals", etc.  That is also a major problem.  You don't need a priest to be good to people in need and offer them assistance and love.  Granted, we must work together with the clergy, esp. those responsible for us, but at the same time, our people aren't very interested in visiting sick people, helping people in need, tithing, supporting the needs of the Church, etc. until they leave for the other groups.  But in the early Church, it was recognised that the priests couldn't do everything on their own, so deacons and lay people took on a lot of those responsibilities in cooperation with the priests.  There's Scriptural support for that too.  The entire book of Acts, for example.     
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« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2013, 09:49:02 PM »

Are there any OO groups that go so far as to "speak in tongues" and do other so-called "manifestations of the Holy Spirit" like the Charismatics? I've heard this went through parts of EOxy for a short time (~70's IIRC) with some still remnant fringe groups that push it, and just wonder if a similar thing happened in parts of OOxy.
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« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2013, 09:53:56 PM »

I'm unaware of any such groups that are also "within the Church".  Most of our people who involve themselves in such things have already left or are on the way out.   
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« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2013, 11:53:30 PM »

Here you can see a Priest trying to imitate a Pentecostal Pastor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfVyFU71IhM
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« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2013, 11:34:05 PM »

LOL.  I love it when Orthodox people try this sort of stuff, and think that the invocation of the prayers of our Lady and of the saints, in the midst of what is basically an imitation of Pentecostal prayer, suddenly makes it Orthodox and acceptable. 

[/sarcasm]
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« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2013, 07:26:47 PM »

Can anybody give me a good Oriental Orthodox apologetic article against the "Charismatic movement"? 

Hi, Apu.  I'm not aware of any articles that are specifically Oriental Orthodox in origin, but Eastern Orthodox articles would articulate the same theological perspective in this case.  Here are a few:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/frseraphim_charismatics.aspx

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/charmov.aspx

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/ec_glossalalia.aspx

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/toronto.aspx

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/ec_secondcoming.aspx

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/ec_thousandyearreign.aspx

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/toronto.aspx

I am in agreement with both of you. I also find these type of worship by Orthodox faithful dangerous. But now it is not that rare to find Orthodox priests and in some cases even Bishops leading people in these kind of worship services; during Bible classes. Even when you find it distasteful, it is difficult to argue that it is un-Orthodox.

Psalm 47:1-2
Quote
Oh, clap your hands, all you peoples!
Shout to God with the voice of triumph!
For the Lord Most High is awesome;
He is a great King over all the earth.

Psalm 98:4
Quote

Shout joyfully to the Lord, all the earth;
Break forth in song, rejoice, and sing praises.

These and many scripture passages are used to justify it. Though personally I find it distateful, have come to accept it, as long as this kind of worship is not used as a substitute for divine liturgy and canonical prayers; but something done in addition to those.

Actually, it is not that difficult to argue against it as a part of our corporate worship.  Here are two articles that do so eloquently:

http://orthodoxyandheterodoxy.org/2013/02/26/god-is-much-bigger-than-your-style-of-worship-or-mine/

http://orthodoxyandheterodoxy.org/2012/09/10/orthodox-worship-versus-contemporary-worship/

These and many scripture passages are used to justify it.

And how many of them are circumcised?  I hope they will have their non-adherence to that very important Scriptural practice corrected, but I suppose they won't be clapping and shouting joyfully (though I imagine there will be shouting). 

Sadly, we have clergy who try to keep our people from leaving our Churches for the charismatic groups by trying to imitate their gimmicks, and very poorly at that.  Their efforts would be better spent passing on real Orthodoxy and Orthopraxis rather than by pretending to be Pentecostals with sacraments.  Every time they try to imitate what others do and find "Scriptural justifications" for those things instead of doing what we ought to do, they make our people think that there's something wrong with our faith and something right with that of the heretics. 

And that's to say nothing of how we "do ministry" in the larger context.  Many of these groups attract people because they do what Roman Catholics call the "spiritual and corporal works of mercy".  Our people "dump all that stuff" on the priest, who can't do it all because he's one person, and so nothing gets done; then the people complain about the Church not doing enough and "look at the Pentecostals", etc.  That is also a major problem.  You don't need a priest to be good to people in need and offer them assistance and love.  Granted, we must work together with the clergy, esp. those responsible for us, but at the same time, our people aren't very interested in visiting sick people, helping people in need, tithing, supporting the needs of the Church, etc. until they leave for the other groups.  But in the early Church, it was recognised that the priests couldn't do everything on their own, so deacons and lay people took on a lot of those responsibilities in cooperation with the priests.  There's Scriptural support for that too.  The entire book of Acts, for example.     

Amen.  100%

Are there any OO groups that go so far as to "speak in tongues" and do other so-called "manifestations of the Holy Spirit" like the Charismatics? I've heard this went through parts of EOxy for a short time (~70's IIRC) with some still remnant fringe groups that push it, and just wonder if a similar thing happened in parts of OOxy.

Not that I'm aware of.  I'd imagine that anyone trying to introduce this sort of thing would be anathematized fairly quickly.  Here are some of the decisions of the Coptic Orthodox Holy Synod on checking Protestant influence:

http://www.arabwestreport.info/year-2012/week-12/43-ecumenical-relations-coptic-orthodox-church-mentioned-decisions-holy-synod

•   Forbid priests to accept invitations to appear at Protestant gatherings unless they had first received the express approval of the Patriarchate (June 1996)
•   Warned against unauthorized “house meetings” and the spread of Protestant books, cassettes, and CDs (June 1996, June 2001)
•   Authorized a committee for the revising of religious books to remove any Protestant influence or doctrine, warning that “the statement that we are all one in Jesus is deceiving”  (June 1998)
•   Warned specifically against music as a means of spreading Protestant influence and theology [H.H. Pope Shenouda III] (June 1998)
•   Declared that “clergy should be careful about teachers in church and check whether they are influenced by Protestant thought or not” (June 1998)
•   Convened a conference on how to face Protestant activities and how to protect the Coptic Orthodox Church from the spread of Protestant influence from the inside out (October 1998)
•   Instructed Orthodox clergy not to write introductions for non-Orthodox books so as not to give Protestants the opportunity to deliver a non-Orthodox message to Orthodox believers (May 1999)
•   Warned Orthodox Christians against attending non-Orthodox retreats (May 1999)
•   Warned Orthodox youth not to join in activities held in joint cooperation with Protestants or Roman Catholics, including sports activities, conferences and lectures, “since these are used for proselytism”; The Synod is explicit that “these are very dangerous issues” (June 2000)
•   Convened a conference to warn the Coptic Orthodox faithful against the activities of the Seventh Day Adventists (October 2002)
•   Organized a number of seminars, sermons, spiritual days and conferences stressing Orthodox dogma, differences with the Protestants, and explaining why the Coptic Orthodox Church rejects false unity, declaring that, “God is not only Love but the Truth” (June-September 2003)
•   Warned specifically against the activities of the Southern Baptist Convention, which published materials stating explicitly that they were targeting the Coptic Orthodox Christians of Egypt for conversion (June 2006)
•   Prohibited Coptic clergy from appearing on Protestant satellite channels (2009)
•   Prohibited Coptic Orthodox bookstores from carrying a number of heterodox titles, materials and publications (1999, 2005, 2007, 2009, 2010)

And H.H. Pope Tawadros II says:

“Let us not forget that Unorthodox worship can pollute our being, leading to forgetfulness. It can cause one's mind to drift quite far, rendering him unable to value the Traditional Orthodox melodies and style of Church Worship.[...] Orthodox worship is distinct in its constant reminder of the real presence of Christ and His saints in our lives. We must be careful to ensure that the worship songs we use are Orthodox in their origin, lyrics, melodies and in their spirit.  Communion and unity with Christ ought to be embedded within their meaning.” 

Notice that His Holiness the Pope emphasizes that the songs utilized in our corporate worship should be wholly Orthodox not only in lyrics, but also in melody, spirit  and origin.  That is to say, they should come from an Orthodox source and represent an Orthodox approach to worshipping God.

Here you can see a Priest trying to imitate a Pentecostal Pastor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfVyFU71IhM

What a shame.  I agree with Mor Ephrem that 9 times out of 10 this kind of thing is due to the fact that people are afraid because members of their congregation are leaving for Evangelical or Charismatic groups.  The solution is to teach the people how to benefit from the Liturgy and to re-examine our authentic Orthodox spirituality.

At the end of the day, I'm confident that the gates of hell will not prevail and that God will preserve His Church.  This fad will die off in 20 years or so and the Church will still be here.
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« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2013, 01:20:36 PM »

Forgive me for double-posting, but I thought that in this case it would be more appropriate than editing because this post has nothing to do with my reply to my brother Stavro but everything to do with posting more resources for my brother Apu, including some excellent books in pdf form that can be downloaded:

Some Heresies of Evangelicalism & an Orthodox Response by Hierodeacon Gregory

http://www.ctosonline.org/sample/CTS.pdf

The Non-Orthodox by Patrick Barnes

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/non-orthodox.pdf

Comparative Theology by H.H. Pope Shenouda III of Thrice Blessed Memory

http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/theology/comptheo.pdf

A Youtube vid of a talk given by H.H. Pope Shenouda III of Thrice Blessed Memory (w/ English subtitles)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnbTcm_PaZE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpA3T2xFabw

(There are also tons of Ethiopian Orthodox youtube vids addressing this issue, but they are all in Amharic)

And a helpful website:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/inq_evangelicals.aspx

I think that in addition to living liturgically, education is a key component here.  Many of our people in the OO Church are a little naïve and erroneously think that anything with the label "Christian" on it is healthy for their consumption ("Christian is Christian, yanni..."). In the spirit of the St. Habib Guirguis (may his intercession be with us in our efforts) let's work to change this.

Apu, if there is any way I can be of help to you, pm me.  Smiley

In Christ,

A.N.
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« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2013, 02:00:14 PM »

A tangent on how Coptic bishops are dealing with the Charismatic movement was split off and put in the private Orthodox/Other Christian forum:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,52161.msg945726.html#msg945726
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« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2013, 07:49:24 AM »

Sorry, Apu.  In my list of decisions of the Coptic Orthodox Church I forgot to add that the Coptic Orthodox Holy Synod declared in May of 2005 that “No Protestant chorals [singing] and no unorthodox prayers are allowed in Orthodox churches”.  God bless your efforts for Orthodoxy, brother.
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« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2013, 09:42:02 AM »

Apu, I don't have an article. But this Q&A response by Abouna Dawood Lamey (spelled Lamie in the youtube video) is an excellent response to Protestantism, in general. And, from around the 13 min mark, the charismatic movement specifically. It's very good.

Fr. Dawood Lamie on "The Faith of the Orthodox Church"
http://youtu.be/5ToRa1Usyag
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« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2013, 02:01:48 PM »

Wow!  Thanks for sharing this, Copto.  What a wonderful Abouna.  We need more like him.  God strengthen him.
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« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2013, 02:30:09 PM »

Apu, I don't have an article. But this Q&A response by Abouna Dawood Lamey (spelled Lamie in the youtube video) is an excellent response to Protestantism, in general. And, from around the 13 min mark, the charismatic movement specifically. It's very good.

Fr. Dawood Lamie on "The Faith of the Orthodox Church"
http://youtu.be/5ToRa1Usyag


Very nice video. I don't mean to be off-topic, but are the relations really that poor between Egytpian Protestants and the Copts, as it seems from Fr. Dawood? I mean in the way the Protestants treat and view the Coptic Church, and "steal sheep."
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« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2013, 12:15:13 AM »

A post was split off and moved to another thread in the private forum:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,52161.msg948364.html#msg948364
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« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2013, 06:16:31 AM »

Hi Salphy,
             I am not able to access the private forum .Is it off limits to me?

 Sad
Apu Jose

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« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2013, 06:17:40 AM »

Hi Salphy,
             I am not able to access the private forum .Is it off limits to me?

 Sad
Apu Jose



You should pm Fr. George (?) for access to the private fora.
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« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2013, 01:56:50 PM »

Yes, if you want access to the private forums, send Fr. George a personal message asking him to let you in:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=755

The private forums are where we post a lot of polemics.
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