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Author Topic: Tells Teocist: If We Are Worthy, God Will Grant Us the Gift of Unity  (Read 4750 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: October 08, 2002, 07:58:40 PM »

Tells Teocist: If We Are Worthy, God Will Grant Us the Gift of Unity

VATICAN CITY, OCT. 7, 2002 (Zenit.org).- John Paul II welcomed Romanian Orthodox Patriarch Teoctist in St. Peter's Square, in the presence of 200,000 pilgrims who were celebrating the canonization of Josemaría Escrivá.

The encounter came at the end of today's audience which had followed a Mass of thanksgiving for Sunday's canonization.

The meeting with the Pope was the first official event of the patriarch's visit to Rome. He is repaying a visit made by the Holy Father to Rumania in 1999, the first papal visit to Orthodox lands.

During the Romanian's visit, the two religious leaders will sign a joint declaration, which should be another step toward full unity between these two Churches, separated since 1054.

"Beatitude and dear brother: You are making this visit encouraged by my same sentiments and same expectations," John Paul II said in his address to the patriarch. "To meet next to the tomb of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul is a sign of our common will to overcome the obstacles that still impede the re-establishment of full communion between us."

"The present visit is also an act of purification of our memories of division, of often fiery confrontations, of actions and words that have led to painful separations," the Pope said.

"Despite everything, the future is not a dark and unknown tunnel," he continued. "The latter is already illuminated by the grace of God; on it the vivifying light of the Spirit already throws a consoling reflection.

"This certainty not only prevails over every human discouragement, over exhaustion that sometimes halts our steps, but convinces us above all that nothing is impossible for God and that, therefore, if we are worthy, he will also grant us the gift of full unity."

The Romanian's visit ends next Sunday, the day the Pope will preside over the eucharistic liturgy in the presence of the patriarch in St. Peter's Basilica. John Paul II and the patriarch will share the Liturgy of the Word, pray together, profess the faith in the Romanian language, and separate at the moment of the Eucharistic Prayer.

"May these days be able to nourish our dialogue, our experiences, make us more aware of what unites us in our common roots of faith, of our liturgical heritage of the saints and witnesses which we have in common," the Pope concluded in his welcome address. "May the Lord make us feel once again the beauty and sweetness of invoking him together."

Thoughts?
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« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2002, 01:16:34 PM »

Indeed let us hope and pray that Rome will come back into union with World Orthodoxy.

It would be interesting if this happened.  Would the patriarchs of the world require JPII to be chrismated etc. as is done with other Roman Catholics?

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« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2002, 04:33:53 PM »

Of course the Orthodox reserve the right to receive anybody who's never been Orthodox by Baptism! But I don't think that would happen in the case of a Catholic reunion. People have been received economically through professions of faith and even have been 'churched' through the singing of 'Mnogaja leta'! So I think if an agreement were reached and reunion happened tomorrow, there'd be some symbolic reception of the Pope into the Orthodox communion, maybe him reading some agreed-on profession of faith and he and the Orthodox bishops singing the Creed de-filioque'd (which he already has done). No rebaptism, no rechrismation, no reordination, since Catholics already have received the forms of all those things. The Church is one, her mysteries are one, and she fills in any grace that may have been lacking before through the act of receiving someone into the fold.
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« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2002, 04:04:06 PM »

Nik, you asked, "Thoughts?"

Yup.  On behalf of JPII, it's divide and conquer.  Take those Orthodox Churches under his loving protection, one by one.

What's the Romanian Orthodox Church doing in unilaterally signing a "joint declaration" of some sort with Rome anyway without a consultation with the other autocephalous Orthodox Churches?  Sounds more like something the EP would do!  Huh

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« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2002, 12:30:14 PM »

Nik, you asked, "Thoughts?"

Yup.  On behalf of JPII, it's divide and conquer.  Take those Orthodox Churches under his loving protection, one by one.

What's the Romanian Orthodox Church doing in unilaterally signing a "joint declaration" of some sort with Rome anyway without a consultation with the other autocephalous Orthodox Churches?  Sounds more like something the EP would do!  Huh

Hello all....
I haven't had time to read the list much...a baptism and 2 Chrismations and an ordination coming up make for a tight schedule. I am taking 1/2 a day today to catch up.

Hypr Ortho is 100% right.  Its an insideousness that Rome has played before, but never with such fervor.  In the past Rome has tried force and brute tactics that wouldn't be allowable today.  But in the past...think about Holy Orthodox Monks being burned alive on Mount Athos...one of the RC "kindnesses" toward the Orthodox Church.

I think that there is so much PC in the Canonical Orthodox Church that no one is willing to call a spade a spade.  It give the RC Press a field day.  Its kind of like "Orthodox" site that I visited after re-joining this list.  One that actually intimates that Good Orthodox Christians believe in the Immaculate conception.  How UN-Orthodox.

I think that the Canonical Hierarchs are trying to make nice, and that we are all friends, but they never talk about the differences that REALLY separate us.  The only Canon that His Holiness Teocist has broken is "Praying with Heretics".  Indeed, this is true...He has prayed and with heretics, in a heretical setting.  That however doesn't make him a heretic, since it is a disciplinary canon and not one defining dogma.  He did not commune, nor participate in the "Mass".  RC press tries to make more than actually happened.

Teocist is a good Shepherd.  He is 100% Orthodox , without a doubt.  

Regarding the EP...this is a hard situation.  Somehow, he really thinks that he IS the leader of world Orthodoxy.  Although he, himself has never been quoted saying this.  He certainly allows western press to view him as such.  

A good example of what RC press presents is the Liturgy the EP celebrated in San Apollonare.  It intimated that everyone present was allowed to commune.  In this group were the representatives of the RC, Protestant Churches, and Non-Christian Churches.
This intimation led folks to believe that RC's were communed.  Such was not the case.

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« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2002, 12:58:15 PM »

Of course I want to see an all-around reunion of the apostolic family but also understand not trusting the folks who created the Unia and its hybridism by disrupting the Orthodox Churches.
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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2002, 01:50:08 PM »

Of course I want to see an all-around reunion of the apostolic family but also understand not trusting the folks who created the Unia and its hybridism by disrupting the Orthodox Churches.
 

A restoration of unity in communion of Faith, yes, but not a false union, Serge.  Not a union based on being in communion with Rome as being the most important criterion and letting everybody believe as they wish, e.g., a "filioque" here, but no "filioque" there, as if dogmatic differences are unimportant.

JPII is a wise and wily politician.   He *still* says his Mass *with* the "filioque" 99% of the time, at least when he's with the Latins.  But when with the Orthodox or Uniates, especially at some auspicious ecumenistic gathering, he conveniently omits the "filioque" (other dogmatic differences are just brushed aside for now).  IOW, he makes dogma relative and irrelevant at times.  Anything for unity's sake.  This is false ecumenism.

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« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2002, 02:27:57 PM »

There is a Catechism of the Catholic Church that spells out pretty clearly what must be believed by Catholics so it's not true everyone may believe whatever they want.
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« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2002, 10:50:58 PM »

There is a Catechism of the Catholic Church that spells out pretty clearly what must be believed by Catholics so it's not true everyone may believe whatever they want.

Serge, what does this "Catechism of the Catholic Church" have to say about the Filioque?  Optional in the Nicene Creed for *ALL* Catholics, *both* Roman AND Eastern?  Or when in Rome, do as the Romans do?  Some Byzantine Rite Catholics I know insist that today they may dispense with belief in the Filioque, Purgatory, Indulgences, Immaculate Conception, and even Papal Infallibility!  Are they conforming to the teachings of this "Catechism of the Catholic Church"?

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« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2002, 10:53:40 PM »

Figured a picture might be nice...

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« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2002, 11:05:45 PM »

In the pretty photo at the Vatican, Mor, which one is JPII and which one is Romanian Patriarch Teoctist?  They look like they're co-officiating at a Latin Mass, sort of....   Roll Eyes

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« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2002, 11:12:43 PM »

As I understand it, they both "presided" over the first half of Mass, the "Liturgy of the Word", and then the Romanian Patriarch left the altar for the "Liturgy of the Eucharist".
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« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2002, 09:56:09 AM »

Hypo-Ortho,

I haven't got the CCC in front of me, but I'm sure you can find it on the Web. AFAIK the filioque has been explained away - the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son. Catholics see it as a nonissue. As for the other matters, AFAIK Eastern Catholics are required to accept it all as orthodox, even if they don't practise it all (such as indulgences - or the definition of the Immaculate Conception, which is unnecessary when using Byzantine theology). I think those idealistic Byzantine Catholics who dissent from their Church (the Pope) on these matters haven't got a leg to stand on ecclesiologically, even though unlike liberal dissenters they personally are orthodox. To the Catholics they are clearly dissenters and to the Orthodox they are at best well-meaning, misguided poseurs.

And, no surprise here, the pic doesn't offend me. It is inter-apostolic and orthodox. If the patriarch were taking part in a Protestant service - at an altar with Anglican and Lutheran lady ministers, for example - it would. They didn't co-consecrate and the patriarch didn't receive Communion. No pretence of a unity that does not (yet?) exist.

Actually the Pope would have no problem from his end communing Patriarch Teoctist as he is, as the patriarch is a born Orthodox. But of course the patriarch wouldn't do that because to do so would be to break with the Orthodox communion.

N.B. The patriarch is not in liturgical vestments here, but 'choir dress' like for the hours - klobuk, riassa and mantia.
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« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2002, 02:01:47 PM »

Serge<<N.B. The patriarch is not in liturgical vestments here, but 'choir dress' like for the hours - klobuk, riassa and mantia.>>

Yes, I see that, Serge.  But why does Patriarch Teoctist *have* to wear what you call "choir dress" for a ROMAN CATHOLIC Mass just as if he were attending an Orthodox service, even if it be for only for The Hours or his formal entrance into an Orthodox church for an official visitation?  He could have just as well worn *only* his riassa and klobuk for this Mass, and then it would not have looked so obvious that he was *actively* co-officiating with the Pope in the first part of the Papal Mass.
While this praying with the heterodox does not go against dogma necessarily, it *does* go against the Holy Canons of the Orthodox Church.

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« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2002, 02:37:19 PM »

Dear HypoOrtho:

I know the Orthodox are not as keen as the Catholics (the Roman variety, at least) for the continuation of ecumenical dialogue between our Churches.  However, we should afford those committed to such an endeavor the benefit of the doubt.

In the quoted news bit below, I wish to re-emphasize the official stance of the Vatican:  that the proposed re-union does not involve "absorption or fusion."


Quote
POPE, ROMANIAN ORTHODOX PATRIARCH AFFIRM ECUMENICAL EFFORTS

At the conclusion of a visit to the Vatican by the Romanian Orthodox Patriarch Teoctist, Pope John Paul II emphasized the commitment of the Catholic Church to the cause of Christian unity. . .

The Pope stressed that full Christian union "does not involve absorption or fusion, but respects the legitimate differences among traditions." In his response to the Pope, Patriarch Teoctist said that for Eastern Europe, after the fall of Communism, the primary goal for all Christians must be to re-evangelize society. That effort, he said, is not the responsibility of "only one Christian denomination or church, but of all Christians equally." In their joint declaration, Pope John Paul II and Patriarch Teoctist acknowledged the tensions that continue to trouble relations between the Romanian Orthodox Church and the Byzantine-rite Romanian Catholic Church.

Mor & Serge:

Thanks for the picture and for the "ecumenical" observations.


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« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2002, 05:03:46 PM »

[In the quoted news bit below, I wish to re-emphasize the official stance of the Vatican:  that the proposed re-union does not involve "absorption or fusion."]

Which is the exact same thing many of our ancestors were told when their bishops signed the 'Union of Brest' in the 16th century.  However history shows that the agreements were laid aside almost before the ink was dry.  Otherwise, there would be no reason for those within the Unia to delatinize or go 'back to their traditions' which were all guaranteed in the Union stipulations.

Same thing happened just  a few years back in the 1990's when the Quadripartie Agreement was signed between the ROC, UOC, RCC. and  UCC.  However, six weeks into the agreement  the UCC turned their backs on the agreement and their adopted mother church (RCC) supported them by their silence.  result, was instead of the people of each parish voting on what Church they wanted to belong to, they were retaken by force.

What Rome says and agrees to, and what Rome does are two different things. Agreements or statements by Rome are not worth the paper they are written on.  History proves that.   We, as Orthodox Catholics, can point to  over a thousand years of examples to prove our point.

The Pope proclaims that everything is up for negiotation.  Then we hear that there are exceptions like Papal Supremacy.  Rome claims it has asked the Orthodox how they envision the role of the Pope in a unified Church but the Orthodox have not gotten back to them.  Yet it took me all of five minutes to find the reply and post it here.

When Rome starts treating its own 'Eastern Rite' adherents as the 'sui juris' churches they are so supposed to be, we will look at the claims more seriously.  Until then, they are nothing but empty words as they have been in the past..

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« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2002, 07:17:33 PM »

Orthodoc,

The only thing the pope could agree to that would interest me is his intention to repent, become a catechumen for a number of years and expel the Latin baggage, and to be baptized. For this, nothing on our part needs to be said.

This goes for each and every individual Latin, nothing such as this can be done en masse.

In the mean time, let us eagerly draw near to Christ who summons us, surrendering our hearts to him.
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« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2002, 10:11:35 AM »

Quote
When Rome starts treating its own 'Eastern Rite' adherents as the 'sui juris' churches they are so supposed to be, we will look at the claims more seriously.  Until then, they are nothing but empty words as they have been in the past..

Orthodoc


I hve a paper due on ecumenism this term and would like to get some info on Orthodox sources concerning the ecumenical effort.  I am particularily interested in the above quoted position.  Where can I find such a position in the writings of the ORthodox Church.  

Also any books you might highly recommend would be most appreciated.  

In Christ,
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« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2002, 11:15:29 AM »

[Where can I find such a position in the writings of the ORthodox Church. ]

You might try some back issues of the 'Eastern Christian Journal' or talk to some of the persons (both OC and EC) that are connected with Orientle Lumen (excuse spelling) held annually in Washington D.C.
Surprisingly this kind of statement comes more from those within the 'Easter Rites of the Church of Rome' who are looking to, and depending on the OC's, to defend their rights in their dealings with Rome by pointing out  some of the the problems that exist that question their claim of being sui juris.
This topic has come up on the byzantine forum many times and usually a reply will come from StuartK regarding what I am saying.  I think that you are a member of that forum.  If so, you might want to ask the question there.  If not, contact someone who attends the Orientle Lumen (sp?) sessions in Washington.  Or, perhaps we have someone here that has been there or gets the Journal and can provide more info.  

[Also any books you might highly recommend would be most appreciated. ]

Books concerning what?  If you are more specific perhaps I can recommend some.  Would suggest you try and obtain copies of the 'Eastern Christian Journal.  Perhaps someone can post info on how to abtain them.  JoeS ARE YOU READING THIS?  Perhaps you can provide the info on where to acquire the Journals since I know you subscribe.

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« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2002, 11:40:05 AM »

I think thatÆs Eastern Churches Journal.
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« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2002, 12:11:46 PM »

 Thanks Orthodoc -

Your statement really got me thinking (The one I quoted in my last post).  I think that I can use it in to formulate my position.  That's why I wanted to see if you knew the immediate source of it off hand.  We have a number of ECJ's here so that will not be a problem.

The books on the Papacy from the Orthodox perspective that I am interested in looking at are Meyendorff's and Bishop Kallistos Ware's.  However, I do not know the titles off hand.  

Any other books, or periodicals, etc. that can give me more info on the Orthodox view is what I am looking for.  I have yet to do the research for the paper but I am looking for leads.
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« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2002, 01:06:16 PM »

[Any other books, or periodicals, etc. that can give me more info on the Orthodox view is what I am looking for.  I have yet to do the research for the paper but I am looking for leads.]

May I suggest a book I picked up at St Vlad's bookstore when I was up there for education day?  Its called 'Orthodoxy In Conversation' Orthodox Ecumenical Engagements by Emmanuel Clapsis.  

I have just started it and find it may be beneficial in answering your questions regarding the Orthodox perspective regarding the ecumenical movement.  In fact, the first chapter is entitled 'The Orthodox Church and the Ecumenical Movement'.  

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« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2002, 10:50:24 AM »

Regarding Ality's question on ecumenism.  Here is an update that may be of interest...Orthodoc

-----------------

Joint Committee of Orthodox and Catholic Bishops hold annual meeting
The Joint Committee of Orthodox and Catholic Bishops held its 19th meeting
in Chicago, Illinois, from October 8 to 10, 2002, under the auspices of the
Standing Conference of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of America. It was
chaired jointly by Metropolitan Maximos of Pittsburgh and Archbishop Oscar
H. Lipscomb of Mobile.

The first two sessions of the meeting were devoted to an ongoing discussion
of the functioning of primacy in the Church as understood by the two
traditions. Metropolitan Maximos presented a paper, "Primacies of Honor:
Development of Primacies in the Life of the Church." He concluded that
while primacy developed differently in the East and in the West, a solution
could be found in the decision of the Council of Constantinople of 879-880
to recognize the primacy of Old Rome and New Rome, each within their own
territory. Each of the Catholic members offered their own responses and
reflections to this paper.

The discussion of primacy was then enriched by a presentation of the 1999
document produced by the Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission
(ARCIC), "The Gift of Authority." Sr. Sara Butler, MSBT, a Catholic member
of ARCIC and Assistant Professor of Systematic Theology at the University
of St. Mary of the Lake in Mundelein, Illinois, presented the text and
commented on the way in which it treats the theological concept of primacy
and the authority of the episcopate in the Church.

The Joint Committee was also able to examine the 1999 document produced by
the North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation, "Baptism and
'Sacramental Economy.'" For this purpose Fr. Alexander Golitzin of the
Department of Theology of Marquette University, and an Orthodox member of
the Consultation, was invited to speak about the contents and significance
of the text. He also informed the Joint Committee about the Consultation's
current work on the filioque question, and its hope to produce a joint
statement on this issue - long a point of division between Catholic and
Orthodox -- in the near future.

A session of the meeting was also devoted to an examination of the
continuing education programs the two churches provide for their clergy,
with special emphasis on the communication of developments in ecumenism.
Bishop Seraphim of Ottawa gave a presentation from an Orthodox perspective,
while Bishop Dale Melczek spoke about programs in the Catholic Church.

The Joint Committee also devoted two sessions to a discussion of major
events in the lives of our churches. One session was devoted entirely to
two recent documents of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops: Charter for
the Protection of Children and Young People and Essential Norms for
Diocesan/Eparchial Policies Dealing with Allegations of Sexual Abuse of
Minors by Priests, Deacons, or Other Church Personnel. The second session
dealt with the Pastoral Agreement on Mixed Marriages between the Coptic
Orthodox Church and the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria and All
Africa; the visit of Pope John Paul II to Armenia; the creation of Catholic
dioceses in Russia; the visit of a delegation from the Church of Greece to
the Vatican in March 2002; the visit of Pope John Paul II to Bulgaria in
May 2002; the non-recognition of Patriarch Irineos of Jerusalem by the
Israeli government; the Joint Declaration on Environmental Ethics signed by
Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew and Pope John Paul II; the situation of
the Serbian Orthodox Church, efforts to achieve Orthodox unity in Ukraine;
the clergy-laity Congress of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese; the election
of Metropolitan Herman of America; the visit of Metropolitan Filaret of
Minsk to the United States, and Orthodox participation in the World Council
of Churches.

On Wednesday evening, October 9, the members of the Joint Committee
attended a Vespers service at Holy Resurrection Serbian Orthodox Cathedral
that was presided over by Metropolitan Christopher. This was followed by a
festive dinner at the parish school. The members expressed their gratitude
to Very Rev. Dragoljub Dennis Pavichevich, the Pastor of the Cathedral, and
to the other members of the parish who made this event possible.

The next meeting of the Joint Committee is schedule to take place October
7-9, 2003, under the auspices of the Archdiocese of Baltimore.

The Joint Committee of Orthodox and Catholic Bishops was established in
1981. The Catholic members currently include Archbishop Oscar H. Lipscomb
of Mobile (Co-Chairman), William Cardinal Keeler, Archbishop of Baltimore,
Archbishop Daniel Pilarczyk of Cincinnati, Bishop Tod D. Brown of Orange,
Bishop Robert Mulvee of Providence, Bishop Dale Melczek of Gary, Bishop
Nicholas Samra, Auxiliary of the Melkite Greek Catholic Eparchy of Newton,
and Rev. Ronald G. Roberson, CSP (staff).
The Orthodox members are Metropolitan Maximos of Pittsburgh (Co-Chairman)
Archbishop Peter of New York (Orthodox Church in America), Archbishop
Vsevolod of Scopelos (Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA), Metropolitan
Isaiah of Denver (Greek Orthodox Archdiocese), Metropolitan Christopher
(Serbian Orthodox Church), Metropolitan Nicholas of Amissos
(Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese), Bishop Seraphim of Ottawa and All
Canada (Orthodox Church in America), and Bishop Dimitrios of Xanthos (Greek
Orthodox Archdiocese, staff).
« Last Edit: October 18, 2002, 10:54:21 AM by Orthodoc » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2002, 02:35:51 PM »

Most interesting. About the only relevance and real good I can see such meetings producing is a no-proselytism gentleman's agreement, esp. regarding mixed marriages since most ethnic Orthodox AFAIK out-marry.

A co-primacy? I don't see it flying with the Catholics, especially given the postschism dogmatic definition about the Pope.

Also, it seems this council of Constantinople isn't among the Big Seven.

Primacy? There's plenty of ancient writing for it. But not 'Uniatism', with the Orthodox effectively neutered.
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