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Author Topic: On the Subject of Personhood  (Read 3466 times) Average Rating: 0
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krotok
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« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2013, 08:02:35 AM »

Krotok, whose theology did you present in your initial post?

It's completely irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the truth.
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IoanC
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« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2013, 08:23:23 AM »

Such a teaching abolishes the very metaphysics, because according to it, actually there is no such an uncreated and hyper-natural essence of Godhead, and a divinity itself is the result of an arbitrary oddity and diversity, ie, modes of a being (community) of a certain three, and moreover, that their mutual relations of such a vicarious and titular character are the only essence of the divinity itself, or otherwise, that the modes of coexistence are an emanation of their identicalness to a single essence. All of that, leads us to the conclusion that it is a case of a reverse Sabellianism, that, according to the unifying principle of an essence-creative relationships, by the modalities of identity emanates the same essence.

Did you see my question?
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« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2013, 08:38:18 AM »

The highlight of this completely non-Orthodox teachings is being reached by claiming that "God is one just because of the Father", ie, due to the unique source of His personal existence, or in other words, God is not one by the equality and uniqueness of His divine being that is indivisibly present in the Holy Trinity as the same and unique Godhead in all of them, but, becouse of the sole causer of their distinctive existence in the person of God the Father.
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« Reply #48 on: June 22, 2013, 08:44:38 AM »

The highlight of this completely non-Orthodox teachings is being reached by claiming that "God is one just because of the Father", ie, due to the unique source of His personal existence, or in other words, God is not one by the equality and uniqueness of His divine being that is indivisibly present in the Holy Trinity as the same and unique Godhead in all of them, but, becouse of the sole causer of their distinctive existence in the person of God the Father.

Did you see my question?
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IoanC
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« Reply #49 on: June 22, 2013, 08:45:47 AM »

I am not asking you what matters, but whose theology you are representing?
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« Reply #50 on: June 22, 2013, 09:18:44 AM »

I am not asking you what matters, but whose theology you are representing?

Not Pergamon's, so Naupactus.  Roll Eyes

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« Reply #51 on: June 22, 2013, 09:21:49 AM »

I am not asking you what matters, but whose theology you are representing?

Not Pergamon's, so Naupactus.  Roll Eyes



And this is a reference to... who? Met. Hierotheos? This whole thread has me scratching my head...  Cool
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« Reply #52 on: June 22, 2013, 09:37:25 AM »

And this is a reference to... who? Met. Hierotheos?

Precisely, my dear Watson!  Tongue
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« Reply #53 on: June 22, 2013, 10:23:37 AM »

The highlight of this completely non-Orthodox teachings is being reached by claiming that "God is one just because of the Father", ie, due to the unique source of His personal existence, or in other words, God is not one by the equality and uniqueness of His divine being that is indivisibly present in the Holy Trinity as the same and unique Godhead in all of them, but, becouse of the sole causer of their distinctive existence in the person of God the Father.

God is one because there is only one Father. Otherwise, there would be three gods. If you don't bring into question the relationship among The Father, Son and Holy Spirit, then you can't really have a God, just three unique and equal persons. In other words, The Son is not God because He is unique and equal to The Father, but because He is of The Father, The Son of The Father. Same in regards to The Holy Spirit. This doesn't mean that The Son and The Spirit are not unique and equal, but that's not what explains the oneness of God.
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« Reply #54 on: June 23, 2013, 06:37:06 AM »

The highlight of this completely non-Orthodox teachings is being reached by claiming that "God is one just because of the Father", ie, due to the unique source of His personal existence, or in other words, God is not one by the equality and uniqueness of His divine being that is indivisibly present in the Holy Trinity as the same and unique Godhead in all of them, but, becouse of the sole causer of their distinctive existence in the person of God the Father.

God is one because there is only one Father. Otherwise, there would be three gods. If you don't bring into question the relationship among The Father, Son and Holy Spirit, then you can't really have a God, just three unique and equal persons. In other words, The Son is not God because He is unique and equal to The Father, but because He is of The Father, The Son of The Father. Same in regards to The Holy Spirit. This doesn't mean that The Son and The Spirit are not unique and equal, but that's not what explains the oneness of God.

... in the sense that even the Father Himself becomes God as the fact of his personality and as the consequence of His relationships within the Holy Trinity, that is to say, that His divine being arises as a side effect of His personal existence.
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« Reply #55 on: June 23, 2013, 07:09:55 AM »

The main exponent of this dangerous science, persistently trying to impose the ontological primacy of the notion of personhood and to establish the subjectivism as a source of a being, besides the features of a recognition of God the Father that were determined by the holy fathers and established by the Holy Spirit, for Him as a monarch and a sole causer of the Trinitarian personal existence of Godhead, ascribes to the person of God the Father a completely unfamiliar and uncharacteristic trait, that even for Himself He causes His own divine being, ie, that the Father attributively imagines, deifies, and by His distinctive discretion,  brings Himself in to existence (creates oneself?) as an absolute being.
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« Reply #56 on: June 23, 2013, 07:12:34 AM »

The highlight of this completely non-Orthodox teachings is being reached by claiming that "God is one just because of the Father", ie, due to the unique source of His personal existence, or in other words, God is not one by the equality and uniqueness of His divine being that is indivisibly present in the Holy Trinity as the same and unique Godhead in all of them, but, becouse of the sole causer of their distinctive existence in the person of God the Father.

God is one because there is only one Father. Otherwise, there would be three gods. If you don't bring into question the relationship among The Father, Son and Holy Spirit, then you can't really have a God, just three unique and equal persons. In other words, The Son is not God because He is unique and equal to The Father, but because He is of The Father, The Son of The Father. Same in regards to The Holy Spirit. This doesn't mean that The Son and The Spirit are not unique and equal, but that's not what explains the oneness of God.

... in the sense that even the Father Himself becomes God as the fact of his personality and as the consequence of His relationships within the Holy Trinity, that is to say, that His divine being arises as a side effect of His personal existence.

God The Father does not become God; He is God, and by saying this, it is not His divinity that is attested, but His being The Father and the ultimate authority. You keep bringing into question God's "being", but God is not a being and doesn't have a being; only creatures do.
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IoanC
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« Reply #57 on: June 23, 2013, 07:18:30 AM »

The main exponent of this dangerous science, persistently trying to impose the ontological primacy of the notion of personhood and to establish the subjectivism as a source of a being, besides the features of a recognition of God the Father that were determined by the holy fathers and established by the Holy Spirit, for Him as a monarch and a sole causer of the Trinitarian personal existence of Godhead, ascribes to the person of God the Father a completely unfamiliar and uncharacteristic trait, that even for Himself He causes His own divine being, ie, that the Father attributively imagines, deifies, and by His distinctive discretion,  brings Himself in to existence (creates oneself?) as an absolute being.

I never supported the fact that God's person-hood presides over His "nature". In fact, I keep saying that God's nature is unknowable. You keep relating to God's nature as if it is something, knowable, a certainty, so on.
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krotok
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« Reply #58 on: June 23, 2013, 07:24:56 AM »

According to this, it turns out that Christians really do not have a unique and consubstantial God, but, instead, a community of gods on the agreed principles of mutual co-existence, by which, they dynamicaly relational establish the identity of each other as the nature and the essence of their community.
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« Reply #59 on: June 23, 2013, 07:34:18 AM »

According to this, it turns out that Christians really do not have a unique and consubstantial God, but, instead, a community of gods on the agreed principles of mutual co-existence, by which, they dynamicaly relational establish the identity of each other as the nature and the essence of their community.

They do have a con-substantial God (not sure what you mean by unique), but this God is not a collection of objects, or natures, but of persons who relate to one another in the fashion of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are so. It's not something "mutual"; they're not pretending to be Father, Son and Holy Spirit. You do not pray to God: "our God who are in Heaven", but "our Father who are in Heaven", and all of our prayers make sure to make it clear that we are not praying to a generic god.
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krotok
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« Reply #60 on: June 23, 2013, 07:54:57 AM »


The Metropolitan (Zizioulas) ontology theory of personality is cunning attempt of interpretation of the Orthodox patristic theology in the light of postmodern philosophy of existentialism, which, as based on atheistic humanism, seeks to justify the decadence of unfaithful mankind, relativising and reducing the dignity of a human nature in its concrete individual existence within the historical context of the world and civilization, liberating the conscience of an individual from an absolute, moral, right and true model of a human being, subordinating it to a relative, ethically correct, an unscrupulous and hypocritically adjustable likeness in the function of an imperative of our own survival, of course, obscurely understood in the domain of existence.
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« Reply #61 on: June 23, 2013, 07:57:25 AM »


The Metropolitan (Zizioulas) ontology theory of personality is cunning attempt of interpretation of the Orthodox patristic theology in the light of postmodern philosophy of existentialism, which, as based on atheistic humanism, seeks to justify the decadence of unfaithful mankind, relativising and reducing the dignity of a human nature in its concrete individual existence within the historical context of the world and civilization, liberating the conscience of an individual from an absolute, moral, right and true model of a human being, subordinating it to a relative, ethically correct, an unscrupulous and hypocritically adjustable likeness in the function of an imperative of our own survival, of course, obscurely understood in the domain of existence.

I have nothing to do with Zizioulas personally. More along Fr. Dumitru Staniloae who says "God is pure subjectivity and the same time ontological", and other persons that I have posted on my blog.
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« Reply #62 on: June 23, 2013, 08:01:06 AM »

So, let me re-phrase. If Zizioulas says what you described above, then I disagree with him to such a degree that we are saying completely different things. I would appreciate it if you did not say that I support his views.
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« Reply #63 on: June 23, 2013, 09:08:12 AM »

So, let me re-phrase. If Zizioulas says what you described above, then I disagree with him to such a degree that we are saying completely different things. I would appreciate it if you did not say that I support his views.

Met. John accused Met. Hierotheos in a public letter of misquoting his writings and misinterpreting his ideas. Krotok didn't even quote him once...
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« Reply #64 on: June 23, 2013, 09:26:33 AM »

Personally, I generally support what Hierotheos has to say. And, what I've heard about Zizioulas so far (and he is very new to me) is stuff I don't agree with. However, I don't even know why Krotok mentioned the two persons in reference to my own blog posts since I have not represented either Hierotheos and Zizioulas. At any rate, if Krotok thinks that I am similar to Zizioulas, I can't stop him even though I disagree. However, he should stop associating me with any of two persons themselves and not just that -- since I mentioned explicitly that I disagree with Zizioulas as Krotok presented him. Not only I haven't heard about him until now, but I disagree with what appears to be his theology. That being said, I don't know why Krotok keeps ignoring what I say and instead wants to fit me into one of his categories. I am not upset, but I think he's doing himself a disservice.  He can just say he disagrees with me, but instead wants to say that I am totally wrong and infected, so on ... I did not claim that I am perfect, just presented my own thoughts. I am meditating on Fr. Dumitru Staniloae primarily and other people that I have quoted in addition to what I know from The Fathers.

Anyway, the big question for me is who is Krotok actually basing his initial post upon. I simply would like to investigate the "lineage" of his own thinking, but he keeps dodging the question by putting me as a person in a bad light, but wait a minute: why is that you Krotok are right and what do you have to support yourself?
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« Reply #65 on: June 23, 2013, 05:12:24 PM »

Just following the example of existentialism, Metropolitan Zizioulas realizes the existence only ecstatically, in the ambiental and environmental milieu that to individuals is only an external, meditative and variable fact of their subjective identity. This spiritual mediation of the mediocre entity of so called community, that substitutes the being of own consciousness and disables subjectivity of a sovereign existence, instead of enabling the growth of an individual in to a person, it turns the faint-hearted individuals in the weapons of utilitarian collectivism, ie, into marionettes and articulators of somebody’s arbitrariness.
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« Reply #66 on: June 23, 2013, 05:46:56 PM »

And even more than that, by his views, he declaim himself as a fanatical follower of deconstructionism, a hardened opponent of the very idea of immanence and a spiritual sworn brother to the greatest nihilists as such are Derrida, Levinas, Heidegger and Nietzsche. How else to qualify his views that all the creation, since composed from nothingness ("ex nihilo", the Latin way he misinterpreted the biblical original expression "out of nothing"), is by nature and essentially worthless, meaningless and futile.
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« Reply #67 on: June 23, 2013, 05:48:54 PM »

Just following the example of existentialism, Metropolitan Zizioulas realizes the existence only ecstatically, in the ambiental and environmental milieu that to individuals is only an external, meditative and variable fact of their subjective identity. This spiritual mediation of the mediocre entity of so called community, that substitutes the being of own consciousness and disables subjectivity of a sovereign existence, instead of enabling the growth of an individual in to a person, it turns the faint-hearted individuals in the weapons of utilitarian collectivism, ie, into marionettes and articulators of somebody’s arbitrariness.

I wish broadsheets were still in fashion. We cudda been famous.
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« Reply #68 on: June 23, 2013, 06:03:08 PM »

And even more than that, by his views, he declaim himself as a fanatical follower of deconstructionism, a hardened opponent of the very idea of immanence and a spiritual sworn brother to the greatest nihilists as such are Derrida, Levinas, Heidegger and Nietzsche. How else to qualify his views that all the creation, since composed from nothingness ("ex nihilo", the Latin way he misinterpreted the biblical original expression "out of nothing"), is by nature and essentially worthless, meaningless and futile.

Of such the heterodox reasons, on deeming the death for a loss and the end of the existence of nothingness, Metropolitan Zizioulas founds his own fatal doctrine of the mortality of the human soul.
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« Reply #69 on: June 24, 2013, 06:09:34 AM »

Just following the example of existentialism, Metropolitan Zizioulas realizes the existence only ecstatically, in the ambiental and environmental milieu that to individuals is only an external, meditative and variable fact of their subjective identity. This spiritual mediation of the mediocre entity of so called community, that substitutes the being of own consciousness and disables subjectivity of a sovereign existence, instead of enabling the growth of an individual in to a person, it turns the faint-hearted individuals in the weapons of utilitarian collectivism, ie, into marionettes and articulators of somebody’s arbitrariness.

Did you make this thread to counteract Met. Zizioulas, or why? What is it about really?
Nice selection of words, by the way.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #70 on: June 24, 2013, 07:44:31 AM »

I am just disputing his teaching of theology. Thanks.
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« Reply #71 on: June 24, 2013, 10:14:49 AM »

I know this is complicated, academic "stuff." But, really, you folks need editors; in most graduate schools this material would face  the "red pencil of doom." Clarity of thought has to be expressed with clarity of writing or else you lose your intended audience. Perhaps something is lost in translation, but ....
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« Reply #72 on: June 24, 2013, 10:37:09 AM »

I know this is complicated, academic "stuff." But, really, you folks need editors; in most graduate schools this material would face  the "red pencil of doom." Clarity of thought has to be expressed with clarity of writing or else you lose your intended audience. Perhaps something is lost in translation, but ....
+1
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« Reply #73 on: June 24, 2013, 02:09:28 PM »

Perhaps things are a bit clearer when he writes in his native language.  Smiley
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« Reply #74 on: June 24, 2013, 02:29:21 PM »

Don't you guys get tired of posting in threads you don't really care to pay attention to and get seriously involved in? Honestly, it's sad.
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« Reply #75 on: June 24, 2013, 02:32:43 PM »

Don't you guys get tired of posting in threads you don't really care to pay attention to and get seriously involved in? Honestly, it's sad.
If I only posted on threads that I really cared about, I probably would only post about once a week.  Wink
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« Reply #76 on: June 24, 2013, 02:33:32 PM »

Don't you guys get tired of posting in threads you don't really care to pay attention to and get seriously involved in? Honestly, it's sad.

I ordered Being as Communion: Studies in Personhood and the Church by Met. John Zizioulas. Whether that will help me make sense of this thread I don't know. His not being a native English speaker does make it harder to understand him. Sorry if that's impolite to say.
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« Reply #77 on: June 24, 2013, 02:37:40 PM »

Don't you guys get tired of posting in threads you don't really care to pay attention to and get seriously involved in? Honestly, it's sad.

I ordered Being as Communion: Studies in Personhood and the Church by Met. John Zizioulas. Whether that will help me make sense of this thread I don't know. His not being a native English speaker does make it harder to understand him. Sorry if that's impolite to say.

Well, me posting replies to this thread did not make things easier either. Why did ever do it?  Embarrassed
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« Reply #78 on: June 24, 2013, 03:21:19 PM »

Actually, I regret my first post in this thread because now it pops up whenever I click new replies to my post and I think:  Oh, what wittiness will I see here?  And then I get this thread that I don't understand anything that is written and I cry.  Cry
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« Reply #79 on: June 24, 2013, 03:37:26 PM »

If you actually understand what he is arguing against, you can understand his posts. If you don't understand Met. John, which I've met almost none who do, then you won't understand what drives his critique.

Forget his native language, his posts are veritable works of art whether you understand his point or not, till he went the profane route of attacking Met. John and his theoretical approaching explicitly.
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« Reply #80 on: June 24, 2013, 03:38:27 PM »

Don't you guys get tired of posting in threads you don't really care to pay attention to and get seriously involved in? Honestly, it's sad.

I ordered Being as Communion: Studies in Personhood and the Church by Met. John Zizioulas. Whether that will help me make sense of this thread I don't know. His not being a native English speaker does make it harder to understand him. Sorry if that's impolite to say.

You gave up on Heidegger. You won't understand the Metropolitan in any serious manner.

Enjoy!
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« Reply #81 on: June 24, 2013, 03:42:36 PM »

And even more than that, by his views, he declaim himself as a fanatical follower of deconstructionism

I love your posts as the expressing the limit of the American language, but since you have gone so quotidian as to make such a statement, could you please let me know where the Metropolitan "declaim himself as a fanatical follower of deconstructionism"?

This seems radically at odds with his work over all. He might in the end, quite to his own chagrin, be forever a simple Heideggerian, but I've never heard him profess something so stupid as being a follower of "deconstructionism".
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« Reply #82 on: June 24, 2013, 03:50:13 PM »

a spiritual sworn brother to the greatest nihilists as such are Derrida, Levinas, Heidegger and Nietzsche

OK, none of the above are nihilists.

Let me tell you what a nihilist, so we can move on. Let's be stupid and boil a nihilist down to two rather simple notions.

Someone holding the view that the world is the worst of all possible worlds (see Schopenhauer). Or that is it is at least on balance one of the worst.

Someone believing that there is no way of distinguishing the better from the worse. (see Nietzsche as the opponent par excellence of such a notion).

Now if you can demonstrate in a relatively facile manner any of the men you listed fall into either of these two definitions, I will agree. Otherwise, like most others, you are incredibly wrong as I can demonstrate rather easily Nietzsche (good grief what is his attempt if nothing than an attempt to combat nihilism) nor any of the others were simple nihilists. Now, Heidegger might argue that Nietzsche himself ended up in the metaphysical death trap he was trying to turn upside down. And Derrida can argue Heidegger too caught in the same trap. And. And. And.

But this would amount to the statement that everyone is a nihilist. Which might be the case; however, not in any polemical sense in which you mean it.
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« Reply #83 on: June 24, 2013, 04:21:36 PM »

You gave up on Heidegger. You won't understand the Metropolitan in any serious manner.

Enjoy!

Oh...
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« Reply #84 on: June 24, 2013, 04:27:51 PM »

You gave up on Heidegger. You won't understand the Metropolitan in any serious manner.

Enjoy!

Oh...

Just kidding, you should be fine. But it might make you want to reach for the Heidegger again nevertheless.
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« Reply #85 on: June 24, 2013, 04:54:51 PM »

Don't you guys get tired of posting in threads you don't really care to pay attention to and get seriously involved in? Honestly, it's sad.

I've tried to follow the argument, but style is an important element of rhetoric. If you want to post in Greek or Bulgarian on a forum in either language that's fine, but if you are trying to post important things for an English speaking audience, you can not come across like a college freshman with a thesaurus. I make no apology for sounding like an Anglophile elitist.
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« Reply #86 on: June 24, 2013, 05:12:04 PM »

Don't you guys get tired of posting in threads you don't really care to pay attention to and get seriously involved in? Honestly, it's sad.

See the above.

Frankly, your comments here might be filed under not involved as you clearly misunderstood the OP from the get go when it was clear you tried to suggest that your own musings were similar to the OP's when they were certainly not.

From post one, anyone with even the little background I have on Orthodox anthropology would know exactly what ax the OP was grinding. I am not sure if I agree with his critique of the Metropolitan, but I certainly agree with his dismissal of your own formulations here about personhood or whatever the lines you quote from the Romanian Father you used. "God is pure subjectivity while ontological" or some other such nonsense.

I can't even begin to imagine what such a statement is supposed to even mean. Frankly, Krotok is more intelligible.

So to the charge of not being involved, I would suggest you presume less and attempt to understand more. If you are Orthodox or have some tangential interest in Orthodoxy and write about personhood and have not made the attempt to become familiar with arguably the most productive Orthodox theologian in centuries, I am not sure how serious to take your involvement in the subject at all.
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« Reply #87 on: June 24, 2013, 05:17:37 PM »

I know this is complicated, academic "stuff." But, really, you folks need editors; in most graduate schools this material would face  the "red pencil of doom." Clarity of thought has to be expressed with clarity of writing or else you lose your intended audience. Perhaps something is lost in translation, but ....

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« Reply #88 on: June 24, 2013, 05:25:42 PM »

Don't you guys get tired of posting in threads you don't really care to pay attention to and get seriously involved in? Honestly, it's sad.

I've tried to follow the argument, but style is an important element of rhetoric. If you want to post in Greek or Bulgarian on a forum in either language that's fine, but if you are trying to post important things for an English speaking audience, you can not come across like a college freshman with a thesaurus. I make no apology for sounding like an Anglophile elitist.

I don't know. Clarity presupposes a certain metaphysical orientation. And lack of "clarity" has been a critique leveled at nearly every productive thinker throughout time.

This is not to say some don't confuse obscurantism with profundity. But from Plato, Hegel, Heidgger, etc., that is to say those thinkers who truly matter and have allowed the advent of thought to shape the world more than others, have been decried as unclear and obscurant, even when pains were taken by these men to conform to the level of pedestrian intelligibility of those around them.

Thinking simply is not for everyone. Especially thought which thinks the limits of its own ground.
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« Reply #89 on: June 24, 2013, 05:28:39 PM »

Don't you guys get tired of posting in threads you don't really care to pay attention to and get seriously involved in? Honestly, it's sad.

Dem guys like to troll. If they did not troll, then their post count would suffer tremendously, and we could read through all the posts here daily in no time.

Honestly, after reading krotok's posts in this thread, I cannot tell if Boris is disputing someone's work, if he is merely spouting his own theology, or if he is presenting someone else's theological works. It is very confusing. I have studied theology in college, but this takes the cake. Since there is a lack of references in krotok's meanderings, I cannot tell if he personally believes in a community of gods or in the one Triune Godhead. Furthermore, does krotok really believe that the Father is becoming God, or is krotok quoting or misquoting someone else? Therefore, I do not know if Boris is truly an Orthodox Christian, a heretic, or a Muslim.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 05:32:21 PM by Maria » Logged

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