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krotok
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« on: June 17, 2013, 05:36:25 PM »

Hello everyone in Christ!
My name is Boris, and herewith, I would like to share some of my thoughts on the subject that I find it one of the most important for the Orthodox faith.

On the Subject of Personhood


The human being is determined by the spirit that accesses and prevails in his heart. This spirit becomes a homeland of honor and a heritage of our dignity. It, therefore, because the human soul is inevitably soulful, unique and indestructible reality, both, ontologicaly meaningful and eschatologicaly purposeful in it’s every effort, which simultaneously is in its righteousness and goodness, its opulence and wealth – our Garden of Eden and imperial palace, and in our grief and misery – a harsh desert for us and a dark tomb of our spirit. The same, human soul, by love can become the cherubs chariot of the God’s throne and the solemn bearer of His Holy Spirit.

All of this is happening to us according to a condition of our nature, depending on our humanity and commitment of the soul to a particular spirituality, by devoting of it indestructible and unstoppable life force, from desire and will, to a sense and reason, adopting the ideas and beliefs, knowledge and skills, our souls educates and upbrings to fulfill with the spirit and unite to essence.

Thus, the human being is wonderfully perfect, permanently invariable, unforgettably recognizable, pre-indicatively intended and indeed well determination of our nature that we nominate as personhood.

Because human is a kind of being that is capable of every possible existence, and that, with his consent, his own will, his subjectivity, his personality, gladly, by good deeds, prayers, all his thoughts and feelings, full life, overall inclusive love, remaining essentially beyond all of it, having inherent existence from God in himself, just as God’s presence in all that exists is not becoming any of that, except in a man, His Son and our Savior, Lord Jesus Christ!

Christian personhood is a category of entity that is above the relationship and responsiveness. It’s a love subjectivity and as love itself is unbiased, complete will to God as our Father and towards people, as Christian and brethren born, our person, without abolishment of certain relations and exclusion of itself from others, however, it remains above any sporadic, at the level of perfection of its overall heading, by grace deified, human nature.

By the fullness of love, the Christian personhood precedes and exceeds any particular relationship, being Church-determined in relation to God, supposing Him to all of its distinctive living and, at the same time, divine towards people, respecting them with all of its propriety as oneself.

Therefore, the personhood does not arises from our relations, but actually, it surpasses them with the beauty of an adherent, gathered and adjoined reality of being, suitably represented by it.

Consequently, as a surreal and perfect condition of our nature, only a personhood can contain and express an image and a likeness of God, since it is exactly assimilated and adapted to an improving essence of love, by the perfection that Trinitarian divinity exhibits within each and every person of God as a paragon of each other’s identity and affiliation to their common being, as without any confusion and separation as faith, hope and love are proclaiming each other, so it could be said that personhood is a truly pious humanity and that only in such a (personal) mood and manner, a man is capable of properly offering oneself to God and through a humble wanting and willing of a heart worthily mentioning Him, so that would have been filled with His Holy Spirit and assimilated in same way like bread and wine into an honorable gifts in order to be transformed and converted in His home, His Body and His Holy Orthodox Church, what kind of the gates of hell will never prevail against it.

At the same time, the personhood is a testimony of God and the Church, as a kind of pane through which a clear and healthy mental vision can notice and experience supernaturality of deity. Also, personhood is a cosmological state of all essences and equally inseparable, both from its nature and from its identity. As a matter of fact, the very nature of personhood is exclusively divine and it is causeless to its essence, since they are mutually originated. Aside of essence, the personhood is equally inconceivable and incomprehensible as the impersonal and featureless essence.

Also, personhood is a subjective factor of the unity of all that exists. It can be called and considered a relation in an absolute sense, by the respective inclusion of the entire being. It is an evenness of your uniqueness with all of the existence. It is a natural way of existence and an in tune living by perfect being of own nature in unconditional mutuality of individuals.

A nature is manifested as subjectivity through personhood, by producing a kind of relations as facts of its being. The way that one numerical unit contains each one and all of the numbering system, by a personhood, each and every person represents not only the essence, but also the identity of all the other congenial persons.

That is to say, a personhood is an etalon of beauty for all kinds of being. It does not abolish relationships but there is over and above them in its own nature. Persons establish and found their own relations, and it is not the same case vice versa, insofar as God is concerned.

Personal relationships are possible only within the same nature, ie, it is impossible to add, subtract, multiply, divide, merge or separate heterogeneous values in order to produce a personal subjectivity of any of them, or even less, of some quite new composite substances. That is why God has put on a man, that we might be draped in His divinity.

All of us, that much we are beings, as much we are human. As long as we do not become of people, ie, as long as any of us does not become a wholly human being, of such one, in no way can be said that he is a person. Until we adopt in ourself the whole humanness, as long as our individual will does not being healed and becomes completely of humankind, to the point, we will remain only individual human creatures, ie, decomposing and deconstructed nature deprived of the fullness of their natural qualities. And that, of course, can not happen devoid and in lack of the grace, without receiving the redemption and salvation of Christ’s sacrifice.

So, all rational creatures are spiritual beings, and of spiritual indivisible nature that as personalities possess integrally without confusion. A true relationship is a consequence of the personhood of spiritual essence. What is an impersonal, can not actively participate in any form of relationship. A Personhood contains the entire identity of existence. In the partial relations, personality turns in to a dead identity and becomes an individual, that is, when we participate in something partially or with any kind of restraint, ie, not with a whole heart and of the passionless love, but for the sake of a sinful and selfish interests, then we put on a mask of false identity, ceasing to be human at all.

Thus, a personhood is the possession of being or an aesthetics of essence and as such, only to incomprehensible Godhead is immanent naturally. It is different than other persons not by distinguishing of will, knowledge, skill, kindness, wisdom and other virtues that completely possess by its natural dignity, but, the way it identifies the existing in itself, ie, by the identification of their being, or rather, by remarkable worship share and praising the wealth of their indivisible being that mutually in a wholeness possess.

As follows, a reasonable being is always someone, like each human voice that is unrepeatable and everyone’s sensibility is emphatically indescribable, though, all that identity belongs to the same essence of certain species and to a common being that exclusively refers to the entities of personhood.

A person is being born and stems out of the personhood, gaining a fullness of the very same being that differently exists in a mutual love. Wealth of the Godhead is actually a riches of love or inexhaustible treasures of being with an overall beauty of existance, an abundance of personality and identity of the living.

Thus, the identity of a person does not originate from the relationship, but the beauty of being that is unique to each person, because, on the other hand, our personal relationships are based on respect of kinship and mutual peculiarity of a single being.

Therefore, the relationship is without any ontological content of itself, and the communities, when constituted simply by the acts of interrelations, such are of a political nature, but, if there is also a presence of a moral ideal, such are personal, ie, of a spiritual nature.

The concept of personhood based on the otherness is completely meaningless. It attempts to establish an ontology on a certain phenomenology of otherness, ie, personality. That kind of person is an unsustainable and indeterminable entity of a conditional personality with а random distinctiveness of а modern and imaginary individual.

Ontological primacy of distinguishing personality tailored to the individual, partial and ineffective entities of communal eminence, that, through the republican model of social relevance, as a kind of political commonwealth, consensually establishes its essentiality of a spurious divinity, is nothing more than an act of a rebellion insurgency and a separation from original nature, only because of a mindless pride.

And when it comes to God as a supreme being of ultimate integrity, there is no other appropriate way of His existence besides that of the Holy Trinity. His hyper-essential will which is love, can not be brought to a more resembling mode of existence, rather than subjectivity of the Father, neither more suitable disclosed to existing, than by subjectivity of the Son, nor explain His divinity in more vivid notions and more intimate sentiments, but within the Holy Spirit. Expression of Godhead will is taking place with an active simultaneous participation of all its divine personalities, through one of them, according to a conforming specificity of each.

Thus, the deeds of God are always being conducted and performed by an active involvement and engagement of all hypostases, either from, through, or within one of them, likewise their personal relationships are established out of the same transcendent content, without any kind of ontological dividing or differentiation. To one another, they are entirely inherent denominators and numerators of the same indivisible treasures they hold. Their monarchy expresses an autocratic, self-consistent and sublimely dignified nobility of the being that naturally belongs to the Son, and also, as a spiritual reality, never the less to the Holy Spirit, since both of them are equally honorable participants that have never lagged behind after the Father’s principle of The Holy Trinity, The Consubstantial and The Indivisible, Which is to save us.

Possession of personality is in fact owning of а love identity with which we acquire grace, ie, a divine gift of participation in the deed of love, which is nothing other than shedding of blood for the acquisition of spirit and laying of the soul, her temporary wear and loss, just for а permanent preservation and glorification, and even the use of the body (along with the physical wisdom) as the candle and a raising food seeds of а new life, The Word of God, the one and only true treasure that actually exists and can be continuously gained in itself and by which can be bought whole the Kingdom of Heaven, which is the unanimity in God.

The problem of understanding the personhood arises from improper comprehension of freedom, ie, its identification with looseness, licentiousness and other forms of casual and irresponsible behavior, which causes many misunderstandings, confusions, controversies and disputes nowadays of a human salvation.To such, so much erroneous concept of freedom comes because of the self-justification of such an improper conduct, which, as a paralyzing poison dulls the sense of human freedom as a soul’s noblest capability of receiving, preserving and tradition of love pledged in our origin, ie, in our very nature that as an icon of God, a measure and an artfulness of divinity, can be actuated towards its archetype (the divine being) only by the personality of The Holy Trinity, operational of the Father, through the Son, within the Holy Spirit.

Consequently, freedom is the the most comprehensive capability of existence and the possibility of being as a gift of love, through and whitin the love itself as an ultimate gift, the purpose of all the inspiration and the aim of all the charisma. Therefor, the being could not anyhow be intrusive for the real freedom, and anyway, it can not presents any kind of burden or onus, since the freedom has been given to us because of the nature of our being primarily.

Proper apprehension of freedom inherent to every conscious being is very helpful in understanding the phenomenon of our personality, wich by freedom, ie, by spiritual sensitivity towards being, can be consensually gained within oneself and willingly shown to everyone, while as an order, it may also be instructed and commanded to all that exists.

Freedom is the power of repentance and capability of obedience to God, but personhood – it’s the very act and honor (taking an active part) of deification. Human personhood (much less the divine) is not just a “way of being” of some sort of essence, but exclusively an Orthodox Christianity of man (thanks and praise God). It is not some imagination through or a mere imitation, but, a total commitment and belonging of а man to God and an immediate symbolic linking of oneself being and destiny to the hyper-essential will of His, delivered to us without any residue, through the Holy Gospel of the Son of God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Checking the claims about freedom to its etymological grounds confirms the meaning of my sense of freedom, that it is, above all, a love gift of divinity in the possibility for achievement the perfection of human nature through the mysterious life of the Body of Christ and for acquiring the divinity through an evangelical living of such a regenerated, healed and iconized human nature by the divine personality of the Son of God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Simplified, freedom is the economy of salvation of human nature as a constitutional order of its decency dedicated to be offered for a transfiguration and a new living of an infinite life of Godhead.

To be continued...
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IoanC
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« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2013, 12:05:26 AM »

I've just been working on similar topics on my own blog. These are just two posts:

http://romanianorthodoxyinenglish.blogspot.ro/2013/06/god-is-pure-subjectivity-and.html
http://romanianorthodoxyinenglish.blogspot.ro/2013/06/the-person-is-ultimate-dimension-father.html

« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 12:06:17 AM by IoanC » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2013, 05:03:10 AM »

Dear Ioan,

Your work is on the oposite position of the same subject We are both concern with.
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« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2013, 05:21:55 AM »

Dear Ioan,

Your work is on the oposite position of the same subject We are both concern with.

I don't understand, since I was not exactly taking a position, just referring to the personal dimension of life.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 05:22:53 AM by IoanC » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2013, 10:11:03 AM »

You say:
Quote
What is substantial in the one who lives? It's exactly the person; the person lives.

I'm sorry, but, that's not true. That's an error.
A Person is an entity completely different than substance or essence.
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Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2013, 10:16:06 AM »

Quote
Ontological primacy of distinguishing personality tailored to the individual, partial and ineffective entities of communal eminence, that, through the republican model of social relevance, as a kind of political commonwealth, consensually establishes its essentiality of a spurious divinity, is nothing more than an act of a rebellion insurgency and a separation from original nature, only because of a mindless pride.

I can't believe this didn't occur to me before...
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« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2013, 10:32:01 AM »

Sorry to hear that. It was so obvious. Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2013, 10:58:03 AM »

krotok, your initial post inspired me to write this: http://romanianorthodoxyinenglish.blogspot.ro/2013/06/giving-is-receiving.html

Maybe you'll like it.
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Inserting personal quote here.


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« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2013, 12:47:49 PM »

Quote
Ontological primacy of distinguishing personality tailored to the individual, partial and ineffective entities of communal eminence, that, through the republican model of social relevance, as a kind of political commonwealth, consensually establishes its essentiality of a spurious divinity, is nothing more than an act of a rebellion insurgency and a separation from original nature, only because of a mindless pride.

I can't believe this didn't occur to me before...
Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2013, 12:59:44 PM »

Is "person" the same as "individual"?
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« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2013, 01:06:36 PM »

Is "person" the same as "individual"?

Not in the context that I've used it and in the way I understand it. Person hood relates to who you are not what you are. You are an individual in society, but that's not your identity, your image from God. Part of the struggle of evil is to give up the aspect of the person in favor of the object, to turn the person into an object; yet while this is practicable, it is unattainable. You cannot cease to be who you are, but only fight against yourself endlessly.
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« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2013, 03:15:46 PM »

Hello everyone in Christ!
My name is Boris, and herewith, I would like to share some of my thoughts on the subject that I find it one of the most important for the Orthodox faith.

On the Subject of Personhood


The human being is determined by the spirit that accesses and prevails in his heart. This spirit becomes a homeland of honor and a heritage of our dignity. It, therefore, because the human soul is inevitably soulful, unique and indestructible reality, both, ontologicaly meaningful and eschatologicaly purposeful in it’s every effort, which simultaneously is in its righteousness and goodness, its opulence and wealth – our Garden of Eden and imperial palace, and in our grief and misery – a harsh desert for us and a dark tomb of our spirit. The same, human soul, by love can become the cherubs chariot of the God’s throne and the solemn bearer of His Holy Spirit.

All of this is happening to us according to a condition of our nature, depending on our humanity and commitment of the soul to a particular spirituality, by devoting of it indestructible and unstoppable life force, from desire and will, to a sense and reason, adopting the ideas and beliefs, knowledge and skills, our souls educates and upbrings to fulfill with the spirit and unite to essence.

Thus, the human being is wonderfully perfect, permanently invariable, unforgettably recognizable, pre-indicatively intended and indeed well determination of our nature that we nominate as personhood.

Because human is a kind of being that is capable of every possible existence, and that, with his consent, his own will, his subjectivity, his personality, gladly, by good deeds, prayers, all his thoughts and feelings, full life, overall inclusive love, remaining essentially beyond all of it, having inherent existence from God in himself, just as God’s presence in all that exists is not becoming any of that, except in a man, His Son and our Savior, Lord Jesus Christ!

Christian personhood is a category of entity that is above the relationship and responsiveness. It’s a love subjectivity and as love itself is unbiased, complete will to God as our Father and towards people, as Christian and brethren born, our person, without abolishment of certain relations and exclusion of itself from others, however, it remains above any sporadic, at the level of perfection of its overall heading, by grace deified, human nature.

By the fullness of love, the Christian personhood precedes and exceeds any particular relationship, being Church-determined in relation to God, supposing Him to all of its distinctive living and, at the same time, divine towards people, respecting them with all of its propriety as oneself.

Therefore, the personhood does not arises from our relations, but actually, it surpasses them with the beauty of an adherent, gathered and adjoined reality of being, suitably represented by it.

Consequently, as a surreal and perfect condition of our nature, only a personhood can contain and express an image and a likeness of God, since it is exactly assimilated and adapted to an improving essence of love, by the perfection that Trinitarian divinity exhibits within each and every person of God as a paragon of each other’s identity and affiliation to their common being, as without any confusion and separation as faith, hope and love are proclaiming each other, so it could be said that personhood is a truly pious humanity and that only in such a (personal) mood and manner, a man is capable of properly offering oneself to God and through a humble wanting and willing of a heart worthily mentioning Him, so that would have been filled with His Holy Spirit and assimilated in same way like bread and wine into an honorable gifts in order to be transformed and converted in His home, His Body and His Holy Orthodox Church, what kind of the gates of hell will never prevail against it.

At the same time, the personhood is a testimony of God and the Church, as a kind of pane through which a clear and healthy mental vision can notice and experience supernaturality of deity. Also, personhood is a cosmological state of all essences and equally inseparable, both from its nature and from its identity. As a matter of fact, the very nature of personhood is exclusively divine and it is causeless to its essence, since they are mutually originated. Aside of essence, the personhood is equally inconceivable and incomprehensible as the impersonal and featureless essence.

Also, personhood is a subjective factor of the unity of all that exists. It can be called and considered a relation in an absolute sense, by the respective inclusion of the entire being. It is an evenness of your uniqueness with all of the existence. It is a natural way of existence and an in tune living by perfect being of own nature in unconditional mutuality of individuals.

A nature is manifested as subjectivity through personhood, by producing a kind of relations as facts of its being. The way that one numerical unit contains each one and all of the numbering system, by a personhood, each and every person represents not only the essence, but also the identity of all the other congenial persons.

That is to say, a personhood is an etalon of beauty for all kinds of being. It does not abolish relationships but there is over and above them in its own nature. Persons establish and found their own relations, and it is not the same case vice versa, insofar as God is concerned.

Personal relationships are possible only within the same nature, ie, it is impossible to add, subtract, multiply, divide, merge or separate heterogeneous values in order to produce a personal subjectivity of any of them, or even less, of some quite new composite substances. That is why God has put on a man, that we might be draped in His divinity.

All of us, that much we are beings, as much we are human. As long as we do not become of people, ie, as long as any of us does not become a wholly human being, of such one, in no way can be said that he is a person. Until we adopt in ourself the whole humanness, as long as our individual will does not being healed and becomes completely of humankind, to the point, we will remain only individual human creatures, ie, decomposing and deconstructed nature deprived of the fullness of their natural qualities. And that, of course, can not happen devoid and in lack of the grace, without receiving the redemption and salvation of Christ’s sacrifice.

So, all rational creatures are spiritual beings, and of spiritual indivisible nature that as personalities possess integrally without confusion. A true relationship is a consequence of the personhood of spiritual essence. What is an impersonal, can not actively participate in any form of relationship. A Personhood contains the entire identity of existence. In the partial relations, personality turns in to a dead identity and becomes an individual, that is, when we participate in something partially or with any kind of restraint, ie, not with a whole heart and of the passionless love, but for the sake of a sinful and selfish interests, then we put on a mask of false identity, ceasing to be human at all.

Thus, a personhood is the possession of being or an aesthetics of essence and as such, only to incomprehensible Godhead is immanent naturally. It is different than other persons not by distinguishing of will, knowledge, skill, kindness, wisdom and other virtues that completely possess by its natural dignity, but, the way it identifies the existing in itself, ie, by the identification of their being, or rather, by remarkable worship share and praising the wealth of their indivisible being that mutually in a wholeness possess.

As follows, a reasonable being is always someone, like each human voice that is unrepeatable and everyone’s sensibility is emphatically indescribable, though, all that identity belongs to the same essence of certain species and to a common being that exclusively refers to the entities of personhood.

A person is being born and stems out of the personhood, gaining a fullness of the very same being that differently exists in a mutual love. Wealth of the Godhead is actually a riches of love or inexhaustible treasures of being with an overall beauty of existance, an abundance of personality and identity of the living.

Thus, the identity of a person does not originate from the relationship, but the beauty of being that is unique to each person, because, on the other hand, our personal relationships are based on respect of kinship and mutual peculiarity of a single being.

Therefore, the relationship is without any ontological content of itself, and the communities, when constituted simply by the acts of interrelations, such are of a political nature, but, if there is also a presence of a moral ideal, such are personal, ie, of a spiritual nature.

The concept of personhood based on the otherness is completely meaningless. It attempts to establish an ontology on a certain phenomenology of otherness, ie, personality. That kind of person is an unsustainable and indeterminable entity of a conditional personality with а random distinctiveness of а modern and imaginary individual.

Ontological primacy of distinguishing personality tailored to the individual, partial and ineffective entities of communal eminence, that, through the republican model of social relevance, as a kind of political commonwealth, consensually establishes its essentiality of a spurious divinity, is nothing more than an act of a rebellion insurgency and a separation from original nature, only because of a mindless pride.

And when it comes to God as a supreme being of ultimate integrity, there is no other appropriate way of His existence besides that of the Holy Trinity. His hyper-essential will which is love, can not be brought to a more resembling mode of existence, rather than subjectivity of the Father, neither more suitable disclosed to existing, than by subjectivity of the Son, nor explain His divinity in more vivid notions and more intimate sentiments, but within the Holy Spirit. Expression of Godhead will is taking place with an active simultaneous participation of all its divine personalities, through one of them, according to a conforming specificity of each.

Thus, the deeds of God are always being conducted and performed by an active involvement and engagement of all hypostases, either from, through, or within one of them, likewise their personal relationships are established out of the same transcendent content, without any kind of ontological dividing or differentiation. To one another, they are entirely inherent denominators and numerators of the same indivisible treasures they hold. Their monarchy expresses an autocratic, self-consistent and sublimely dignified nobility of the being that naturally belongs to the Son, and also, as a spiritual reality, never the less to the Holy Spirit, since both of them are equally honorable participants that have never lagged behind after the Father’s principle of The Holy Trinity, The Consubstantial and The Indivisible, Which is to save us.

Possession of personality is in fact owning of а love identity with which we acquire grace, ie, a divine gift of participation in the deed of love, which is nothing other than shedding of blood for the acquisition of spirit and laying of the soul, her temporary wear and loss, just for а permanent preservation and glorification, and even the use of the body (along with the physical wisdom) as the candle and a raising food seeds of а new life, The Word of God, the one and only true treasure that actually exists and can be continuously gained in itself and by which can be bought whole the Kingdom of Heaven, which is the unanimity in God.

The problem of understanding the personhood arises from improper comprehension of freedom, ie, its identification with looseness, licentiousness and other forms of casual and irresponsible behavior, which causes many misunderstandings, confusions, controversies and disputes nowadays of a human salvation.To such, so much erroneous concept of freedom comes because of the self-justification of such an improper conduct, which, as a paralyzing poison dulls the sense of human freedom as a soul’s noblest capability of receiving, preserving and tradition of love pledged in our origin, ie, in our very nature that as an icon of God, a measure and an artfulness of divinity, can be actuated towards its archetype (the divine being) only by the personality of The Holy Trinity, operational of the Father, through the Son, within the Holy Spirit.

Consequently, freedom is the the most comprehensive capability of existence and the possibility of being as a gift of love, through and whitin the love itself as an ultimate gift, the purpose of all the inspiration and the aim of all the charisma. Therefor, the being could not anyhow be intrusive for the real freedom, and anyway, it can not presents any kind of burden or onus, since the freedom has been given to us because of the nature of our being primarily.

Proper apprehension of freedom inherent to every conscious being is very helpful in understanding the phenomenon of our personality, wich by freedom, ie, by spiritual sensitivity towards being, can be consensually gained within oneself and willingly shown to everyone, while as an order, it may also be instructed and commanded to all that exists.

Freedom is the power of repentance and capability of obedience to God, but personhood – it’s the very act and honor (taking an active part) of deification. Human personhood (much less the divine) is not just a “way of being” of some sort of essence, but exclusively an Orthodox Christianity of man (thanks and praise God). It is not some imagination through or a mere imitation, but, a total commitment and belonging of а man to God and an immediate symbolic linking of oneself being and destiny to the hyper-essential will of His, delivered to us without any residue, through the Holy Gospel of the Son of God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Checking the claims about freedom to its etymological grounds confirms the meaning of my sense of freedom, that it is, above all, a love gift of divinity in the possibility for achievement the perfection of human nature through the mysterious life of the Body of Christ and for acquiring the divinity through an evangelical living of such a regenerated, healed and iconized human nature by the divine personality of the Son of God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Simplified, freedom is the economy of salvation of human nature as a constitutional order of its decency dedicated to be offered for a transfiguration and a new living of an infinite life of Godhead.

To be continued...

Epic.

I look forward to your further ruminations.
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« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2013, 04:05:59 PM »

orthonorm said:

Quote
Epic.
I look forward to your further ruminations.

Very reflective observation. You must be so worried. I feel sorry for you.
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« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2013, 04:14:38 PM »

Is "person" the same as "individual"?

Not at all. A person is the subject of a whole indivisible divine being.
Nothing less than that.
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« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2013, 04:21:51 PM »

krotok, your initial post inspired me to write this: http://romanianorthodoxyinenglish.blogspot.ro/2013/06/giving-is-receiving.html

Maybe you'll like it.

Although I am flattered I've inspired you, I have to point out that I disagree with what you wrote and I think that your opinion is very infected by theological personalism.
Thanks anyway
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« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2013, 04:45:36 PM »

Gaining of personality is unattainable to a man by own forces and way of being, because our natural place is besides God, in the midst of His divine nature, shining with brilliance and beauty of His personality, our nature gets celebrated with personality, as a reflection and glint of divinity.
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« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2013, 04:50:49 PM »

Gaining of personality is unattainable to a man by own forces and way of being, because our natural place is besides God, in the midst of His divine nature, shining with brilliance and beauty of His personality, our nature gets celebrated with personality, as a reflection and glint of divinity.

Our personhood is a gift from God at our conception.
Our personality is a product of environmental, cultural, and familial complex interactions.
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« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2013, 05:09:04 PM »

On the other hand, God is perfect and His personality is quite natural (consubstantial) to Himself. A divine person does not produces its essence out from the way of existence, ie, identity, either in or outside itself (so to speak, ecstatically), but of oneself, by oneself and whitin oneself, He totally inherently contains, expresses and manifests it to an existence.
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« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2013, 05:11:31 PM »

Gaining of personality is unattainable to a man by own forces and way of being, because our natural place is besides God, in the midst of His divine nature, shining with brilliance and beauty of His personality, our nature gets celebrated with personality, as a reflection and glint of divinity.

Our personhood is a gift from God at our conception.
Our personality is a product of environmental, cultural, and familial complex interactions.

That concept completely frees us from liability, and makes us only individuals.
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« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2013, 05:30:31 PM »

krotok, your initial post inspired me to write this: http://romanianorthodoxyinenglish.blogspot.ro/2013/06/giving-is-receiving.html

Maybe you'll like it.

Although I am flattered I've inspired you, I have to point out that I disagree with what you wrote and I think that your opinion is very infected by theological personalism.
Thanks anyway

It's your choice to see it that way. Thing is you'd have to offer a rationality for why it is wrong, or else it means that you are unwrapped in your own personality. I am not hoping to discuss about it, actually, but to point out that this where communion between people drops, of course -- not permanently, because they cannot see beyond their personal preferences, presenting them as actual arguments.
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« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2013, 07:05:07 AM »

The self-proclaimed theology of divine personality, according to a human weakness and a need for freedom from liability, considers the personhood of God by imagining it separated from His hyper-essential nature and presupposing it as her cause and aim.
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« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2013, 09:00:07 AM »

The self-proclaimed theology of divine personality, according to a human weakness and a need for freedom from liability, considers the personhood of God by imagining it separated from His hyper-essential nature and presupposing it as her cause and aim.

I don't think we are talking about the same thing. God's person-hood is precisely not a consequence of His essence, but a consequence of the absolute virtue that He practices (or is, God is pure virtue) for all eternity. Man is free from (legal) liability because love can only be freely chosen; in other words only practiced as virtue (not as a result of a coercive law). Man is not free from causality, however. He cannot not practice virtue without negative consequences. My claim about freedom was not that it is an aim, but only possible when man loves.
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« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2013, 03:46:09 PM »

The self-proclaimed theology of divine personality, according to a human weakness and a need for freedom from liability, considers the personhood of God by imagining it separated from His hyper-essential nature and presupposing it as her cause and aim.

This paradoxical statement is the negation of the very notion of personhood and it introduces an ontological absurd of immoral existance as an absolut kind of being, that is to say, God is not good by nature and nothing well is naturally characteristic of Him, but, He becomes such by the measure of his fatherhood, sonship or spirituality, i.e., that He may wants to, and in accordance with such foolishness, become bed and evil! Otherwise, these "scholars" can not accept Him as an almighty God (worthy of them), attributing Him their own inability to let Himself free of own being, exactly as they let themselves do even to Him.
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« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2013, 07:30:31 AM »

The self-proclaimed theology of divine personality, according to a human weakness and a need for freedom from liability, considers the personhood of God by imagining it separated from His hyper-essential nature and presupposing it as her cause and aim.

This paradoxical statement is the negation of the very notion of personhood and it introduces an ontological absurd of immoral existance as an absolut kind of being, that is to say, God is not good by nature and nothing well is naturally characteristic of Him, but, He becomes such by the measure of his fatherhood, sonship or spirituality, i.e., that He may wants to, and in accordance with such foolishness, become bed and evil! Otherwise, these "scholars" can not accept Him as an almighty God (worthy of them), attributing Him their own inability to let Himself free of own being, exactly as they let themselves do even to Him.

God is not good because of His nature but because He IS good. This is a personal characteristic. If it was as easy as having a nature to be good, then there would be no virtue. If you are saying that His nature is good, then what effort does He actually make? His nature can only be good, only if He chooses to use it for good. And God being infinite, He has to do it in an infinite way. And, if He does it in an infinite way, His nature becomes infinitely meaningless because He has become goodness itself. For the sake of theoretical thinking, yes, His nature is good, but what good is that if it doesn't cease to be an object and is converted into goodness.
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« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2013, 08:00:35 AM »

The self-proclaimed theology of divine personality, according to a human weakness and a need for freedom from liability, considers the personhood of God by imagining it separated from His hyper-essential nature and presupposing it as her cause and aim.

This paradoxical statement is the negation of the very notion of personhood and it introduces an ontological absurd of immoral existance as an absolut kind of being, that is to say, God is not good by nature and nothing well is naturally characteristic of Him, but, He becomes such by the measure of his fatherhood, sonship or spirituality, i.e., that He may wants to, and in accordance with such foolishness, become bed and evil! Otherwise, these "scholars" can not accept Him as an almighty God (worthy of them), attributing Him their own inability to let Himself free of own being, exactly as they let themselves do even to Him.

God is not good because of His nature but because He IS good. This is a personal characteristic. If it was as easy as having a nature to be good, then there would be no virtue. If you are saying that His nature is good, then what effort does He actually make? His nature can only be good, only if He chooses to use it for good. And God being infinite, He has to do it in an infinite way. And, if He does it in an infinite way, His nature becomes infinitely meaningless because He has become goodness itself. For the sake of theoretical thinking, yes, His nature is good, but what good is that if it doesn't cease to be an object and is converted into goodness.

I'm really sorry to say, but, what You said here is completely untrue. It's obvious that You are influenced by the personalism in a modern theology.
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« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2013, 08:10:32 AM »

The self-proclaimed theology of divine personality, according to a human weakness and a need for freedom from liability, considers the personhood of God by imagining it separated from His hyper-essential nature and presupposing it as her cause and aim.

This paradoxical statement is the negation of the very notion of personhood and it introduces an ontological absurd of immoral existance as an absolut kind of being, that is to say, God is not good by nature and nothing well is naturally characteristic of Him, but, He becomes such by the measure of his fatherhood, sonship or spirituality, i.e., that He may wants to, and in accordance with such foolishness, become bed and evil! Otherwise, these "scholars" can not accept Him as an almighty God (worthy of them), attributing Him their own inability to let Himself free of own being, exactly as they let themselves do even to Him.

God is not good because of His nature but because He IS good. This is a personal characteristic. If it was as easy as having a nature to be good, then there would be no virtue. If you are saying that His nature is good, then what effort does He actually make? His nature can only be good, only if He chooses to use it for good. And God being infinite, He has to do it in an infinite way. And, if He does it in an infinite way, His nature becomes infinitely meaningless because He has become goodness itself. For the sake of theoretical thinking, yes, His nature is good, but what good is that if it doesn't cease to be an object and is converted into goodness.

I'm really sorry to say, but, what You said here is completely untrue. It's obvious that You are influenced by the personalism in a modern theology.

Well, you are only expressing your dislike for modern theology from what I gather. Without arguments we are forever lost in our preferences, though. I don't believe what I say is "completely untrue". I would be careful in using such absolute language (without even the slightest argument in regards to anything I actually said). Would it be fair for me to say that your initial post is pure mysticism? Smiley Anyway, let us not argue anymore. It seems guaranteed we are getting nowhere. Smiley
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« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2013, 09:05:42 AM »

Thinking that God could be bothered by His own nature and that He exists regardless and irrespectively of it, then, that all of His natural characteristic are the consequences of his personal qualities, is in fact, the the greatest possible insult that can be applied to God, that by nature He is not sufficiently powerful and good, i.e. that by nature is unworthy of His own distinctiveness, or otherwise, that by personality He is insufficiently capable to deal with own nature as such.
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« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2013, 09:25:07 AM »

Thinking that God could be bothered by His own nature and that He exists regardless and irrespectively of it, then, that all of His natural characteristic are the consequences of his personal qualities, is in fact, the the greatest possible insult that can be applied to God, that by nature He is not sufficiently powerful and good, i.e. that by nature is unworthy of His own distinctiveness, or otherwise, that by personality He is insufficiently capable to deal with own nature as such.

Actually, if you believe that your nature is enough to be worthy of anything, you are selfish. You don't owe anything to anybody and everybody owes everything to you because of your "special" nature (which is an idol). In fact, one of the distinctions of God is that He is all-immaterial. Can you explain how God can be immaterial? In fact, I will say that the only way God can be immaterial is because He wants to be (out of His infinite virtue). Otherwise, you claim that He has some materiality that sustains His immateriality, but it's only His person-hood that could possibly keep Him immaterial. In other words, God is someone who practices the ultimate and infinite denial of self that causes Him to literally become nothing to Himself and everything to everybody else.
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« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2013, 04:29:50 PM »

The very idea that one can realize and express the being of God and form a single ontological doctrine of God is the greatest possible delusion to human mind. Without exception, all the holy fathers agree that God’s being is absolutely inaccessible and unknowable, and that knowledge of God is possible only through the grace-filled energies that by The Holy Trinity are always hypostatically available to us, of the Father, through the Son, within the Holy Spirit. Therefore, since the being of God is above all comprehension, confirmation and denial, there can be no question of divine ontology as the gnostic system, and least of all, with its center in intelligible and richly definable notion of personhood.
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« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2013, 03:02:46 AM »

Well, you tried posting this blog entry at the e-café and didn't get far, and now you've had a similar result here at oc.net. I see you are a member at monachos.net, but apparently haven't posted it yet... perhaps 3rd time is a charm?
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« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2013, 03:03:09 AM »

The very idea that one can realize and express the being of God and form a single ontological doctrine of God is the greatest possible delusion to human mind. Without exception, all the holy fathers agree that God’s being is absolutely inaccessible and unknowable, and that knowledge of God is possible only through the grace-filled energies that by The Holy Trinity are always hypostatically available to us, of the Father, through the Son, within the Holy Spirit. Therefore, since the being of God is above all comprehension, confirmation and denial, there can be no question of divine ontology as the gnostic system, and least of all, with its center in intelligible and richly definable notion of personhood.

God does not have a being, He is not a being. This puts in Him in the same category as creatures. The Fathers don't say that God's nature is inaccessible, but that it is unknowable. Inaccessible and unknowable are not the same thing in this context.

Inaccessible means that God cannot reveal Himself completely, that theosis is not possible for man, but God can only deify man up to a point and not infinitely. However, unknowable means that God Himself is not His essence, He chooses to not be in terms of an essence. This doesn't mean that He doesn't know what an essence could be, but that He chooses not to be one. He chooses to be immaterial.

Immateriality is impossible if you remain something. To call yourself immaterial you have to give up everything that could possible make you material, even things unknown to man. So, immateriality cannot be caused by an essence, unless that essence is nothingness itself (which makes no sense and would mean that God is nothing).

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« Reply #31 on: June 21, 2013, 05:27:47 AM »

Well, you tried posting this blog entry at the e-café and didn't get far, and now you've had a similar result here at oc.net. I see you are a member at monachos.net, but apparently haven't posted it yet... perhaps 3rd time is a charm?

Congratulations.
You should seriously consider аpplying for a job at the intelligence.
Anyway, I intend to post my writing everywhere else on the net.
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« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2013, 05:33:14 AM »

Well, you tried posting this blog entry at the e-café and didn't get far, and now you've had a similar result here at oc.net. I see you are a member at monachos.net, but apparently haven't posted it yet... perhaps 3rd time is a charm?

Congratulations.
You should seriously consider аpplying for a job at the intelligence.
Anyway, I intend to post my writing everywhere else on the net.

Post it, but if you don't care if people actually understand it and agree with it, why else would you do it?
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« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2013, 05:35:26 AM »

ROFL  Cheesy
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« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2013, 12:34:16 PM »

Scholastic epistemology and its latest product - a modern deconstructionist theology based on the occult concept of personality as the subject of initiation of the divine reality, claiming that the Father, by His personal existence and drawing up of other hypostases, according to his will and at His discretion establishes the essence of divinity is an obvious attempt to present a hyper-essential nature of divinity as a personal quality and status of Father’s hypostasis, for an evidence of the ontological primacy of personality.
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« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2013, 12:37:27 PM »

Scholastic epistemology and its latest product - a modern deconstructionist theology based on the occult concept of personality as the subject of initiation of the divine reality, claiming that the Father, by His personal existence and drawing up of other hypostases, according to his will and at His discretion establishes the essence of divinity is an obvious attempt to present a hyper-essential nature of divinity as a personal quality and status of Father’s hypostasis, for an evidence of the ontological primacy of personality.

I respect your right to say whatever you want, but let us be clear and for the sake of excising my own right to speak, I do not support anything you claim above (that's your own interpretation of what I said).
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« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2013, 12:39:57 PM »

An here is an "official" response: http://romanianorthodoxyinenglish.blogspot.ro/2013/06/a-response-to-criticism-regarding-gods.html
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« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2013, 12:53:31 PM »

Scholastic epistemology and its latest product - a modern deconstructionist theology based on the occult concept of personality as the subject of initiation of the divine reality, claiming that the Father, by His personal existence and drawing up of other hypostases, according to his will and at His discretion establishes the essence of divinity is an obvious attempt to present a hyper-essential nature of divinity as a personal quality and status of Father’s hypostasis, for an evidence of the ontological primacy of personality.

Is this about the Bishop Hierotheos Vlachos vs. Bishop John Zizioulas debate?
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« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2013, 01:12:51 PM »

In reflecting upon your words, I quote a modern sage.

Quote
Beer is good, God is great and people are crazy.

That is all.  Continue.
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« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2013, 03:16:22 AM »

Scholastic epistemology and its latest product - a modern deconstructionist theology based on the occult concept of personality as the subject of initiation of the divine reality, claiming that the Father, by His personal existence and drawing up of other hypostases, according to his will and at His discretion establishes the essence of divinity is an obvious attempt to present a hyper-essential nature of divinity as a personal quality and status of Father’s hypostasis, for an evidence of the ontological primacy of personality.

Is this about the Bishop Hierotheos Vlachos vs. Bishop John Zizioulas debate?

Actually, it's about the theology of Metropolitan John Zizioulas
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« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2013, 03:20:41 AM »

Scholastic epistemology and its latest product - a modern deconstructionist theology based on the occult concept of personality as the subject of initiation of the divine reality, claiming that the Father, by His personal existence and drawing up of other hypostases, according to his will and at His discretion establishes the essence of divinity is an obvious attempt to present a hyper-essential nature of divinity as a personal quality and status of Father’s hypostasis, for an evidence of the ontological primacy of personality.

Is this about the Bishop Hierotheos Vlachos vs. Bishop John Zizioulas debate?

Actually, it's about the theology of Metropolitan John Zizioulas

Actually, it's about an odd reading of the writings of Metropolitan John of Pergamon.
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« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2013, 04:01:19 AM »

Scholastic epistemology and its latest product - a modern deconstructionist theology based on the occult concept of personality as the subject of initiation of the divine reality, claiming that the Father, by His personal existence and drawing up of other hypostases, according to his will and at His discretion establishes the essence of divinity is an obvious attempt to present a hyper-essential nature of divinity as a personal quality and status of Father’s hypostasis, for an evidence of the ontological primacy of personality.

Is this about the Bishop Hierotheos Vlachos vs. Bishop John Zizioulas debate?

Actually, it's about the theology of Metropolitan John Zizioulas

Actually, it's about an odd reading of the writings of Metropolitan John of Pergamon.

That's for shore, it has nothing to do with IoanC .
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« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2013, 07:21:13 AM »

Scholastic epistemology and its latest product - a modern deconstructionist theology based on the occult concept of personality as the subject of initiation of the divine reality, claiming that the Father, by His personal existence and drawing up of other hypostases, according to his will and at His discretion establishes the essence of divinity is an obvious attempt to present a hyper-essential nature of divinity as a personal quality and status of Father’s hypostasis, for an evidence of the ontological primacy of personality.

Is this about the Bishop Hierotheos Vlachos vs. Bishop John Zizioulas debate?

Actually, it's about the theology of Metropolitan John Zizioulas

Actually, it's about an odd reading of the writings of Metropolitan John of Pergamon.

That's for shore, it has nothing to do with IoanC .

So, how come I'm in the middle of it?  Smiley
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« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2013, 07:22:11 AM »

Krotok, whose theology did you present in your initial post?
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« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2013, 07:58:28 AM »

Such a teaching abolishes the very metaphysics, because according to it, actually there is no such an uncreated and hyper-natural essence of Godhead, and a divinity itself is the result of an arbitrary oddity and diversity, ie, modes of a being (community) of a certain three, and moreover, that their mutual relations of such a vicarious and titular character are the only essence of the divinity itself, or otherwise, that the modes of coexistence are an emanation of their identicalness to a single essence. All of that, leads us to the conclusion that it is a case of a reverse Sabellianism, that, according to the unifying principle of an essence-creative relationships, by the modalities of identity emanates the same essence.
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