Author Topic: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns  (Read 2155 times)

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2013, 11:19:32 AM »
I left it with the Onion tag on it because I figured people would not read it if it looked like a serious article.  Apparently even when it is a spoof article, people still don't read it.

I love Maria.  She is so hardcore about Monsanto.  It is like Rachel with sola scriptura except Maria knows more about what she is talking about.  I want to send her a Monsanto t-shirt just like the guy in the pic.  ;D
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2013, 11:58:28 AM »
Coincidence does not equal causation. I can throw up stats comparing the rise of autism with the rise of computers. It doesn't mean that Computers caused Autism.

Do I think Monsanto gets a pass? Sure they do. From "both" political parties. Follow the money.
Do I think GMO's could be harmful? Maybe they are, maybe they arent.
Do I think that Americans on the whole have crappy diets and are fat and diabetic because they sit in front of a computer all day, have an ever increasingly sedentary lifestyle, and constantly try BS fad diets, which wreck themselves and blame anyone or anything that is handily nearby? Yeppers.

Its one thing to say that a company like Monsanto doesn't get the oversight and regulation that they do, especially since they wield so much power. Its an entirely different thing to accuse them of knowingly promoting death for the bottom line. That is B-class video game material.

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Offline orthonorm

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2013, 12:03:18 PM »
Its an entirely different thing to accuse them of knowingly promoting death for the bottom line.

Oh they most certainly do. This is not news. It is the price of profit in any industry.

Accuracy for the sake of precision is often false consciousness however.
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2013, 12:14:58 PM »
Quote
Oh they most certainly do. This is not news. It is the price of profit in any industry
I'd be interested in reading some evidence on this. I did read a study about Monsanto, but the ones who funded it weren't exactly what I would call unbiased.
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Offline J Michael

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2013, 12:28:08 PM »
Quote
Oh they most certainly do. This is not news. It is the price of profit in any industry
I'd be interested in reading some evidence on this. I did read a study about Monsanto, but the ones who funded it weren't exactly what I would call unbiased.

I find the whole notion of knowingly promoting death being the "price of profit in any industry" quite intriguing, to say the least.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2013, 01:51:27 PM »
Quote from: orthonorm link=topic=51974.msg939242#msg939242 date=1371444DEM-S
[quote author=Maria link=topic=51974.msg939240#msg939240 date=1371444260


Here is another link about autism and Monsanto's Roundup that shows an interesting correlation:
http://naturalrevolution.org/monsantos-roundup-confirmed-links-to-autism-parkinsons-and-cancer/

Quote
When we take into account of the significant increase in Autism, something very profound emerges.
One in 150 kids were diagnosed on Autism Spectrum in 2007
One in 100 kids were diagnosed Autism Spectrum in 2009
One in 50 kids were diagnosed on Autism Spectrum in Mar. 2013.
The rate was 1 in 10,000 in 1970.

Read more at http://naturalrevolution.org/monsantos-roundup-confirmed-links-to-autism-parkinsons-and-cancer/#IZyt50zEbKWYRxKQ.99

You should see how many more kids had ADHD in 1990 than in 1950.

You should also see which socio-economic classes these disorders primarily affect. It can't be possibly due to neurotic, hyperviligant parents with the Does my Kid have Autism app running 24 / 7 on their iPhone that could be increasing these numbers . . .
[/quote]
 
Not to mention definitional changes in diagnostic guidelines between the DSM-1 and the DSM - 6.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2013, 01:52:55 PM »
Quote
Oh they most certainly do. This is not news. It is the price of profit in any industry
I'd be interested in reading some evidence on this. I did read a study about Monsanto, but the ones who funded it weren't exactly what I would call unbiased.

Same goes for the never ending fracking debate around the USA.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2013, 01:59:17 PM »
Quote
Oh they most certainly do. This is not news. It is the price of profit in any industry
I'd be interested in reading some evidence on this. I did read a study about Monsanto, but the ones who funded it weren't exactly what I would call unbiased.

Same goes for the never ending fracking debate around the USA.
Very true.

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Offline Maria

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2013, 04:08:49 PM »
LOL!!!  I posted a ridiculous article with a pic of a 20 ft guy that has plowblades for arms and a monsanto shirt on, and it took 30 posts before anyone even noticed that it was not a serious article.

Carry on.  ;D

I considered it a joke ... and a bad joke at that. So I did not comment.
Others hinted at the Onion joke, Liza among them.
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Offline Maria

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2013, 04:14:52 PM »
Coincidence does not equal causation. I can throw up stats comparing the rise of autism with the rise of computers. It doesn't mean that Computers caused Autism.

Do I think Monsanto gets a pass? Sure they do. From "both" political parties. Follow the money.
Do I think GMO's could be harmful? Maybe they are, maybe they arent.
Do I think that Americans on the whole have crappy diets and are fat and diabetic because they sit in front of a computer all day, have an ever increasingly sedentary lifestyle, and constantly try BS fad diets, which wreck themselves and blame anyone or anything that is handily nearby? Yeppers.

Its one thing to say that a company like Monsanto doesn't get the oversight and regulation that they do, especially since they wield so much power. Its an entirely different thing to accuse them of knowingly promoting death for the bottom line. That is B-class video game material.

PP

Monsanto has not done any serious scientific research to see what effect RoundUp has on the environment including lethal dosages, which are mandated on any other chemicals. In addition, no long term studies have been done on GMOs. Recently, rats were studied beyond the 8 week mark that Monsanto has used in their studies. These rats developed huge cancerous tumors when exposed to GMO foods. RoundUp herbicides were also studied independently from Monsanto labs and were shown to have adverse neurological and homeostasis effects.

Yes, please follow the money. Both Demos and Reps are having their campaigns largely financed by Monsanto. Conflicts of interest abound. Look at who has been employed by Monsanto, including the current FDA chief.

It is a shame that people do not want to see the ugly truth about Monsanto. They would rather bury their heads in the sand like an ostrich.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 04:17:33 PM by Maria »
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2013, 04:28:47 PM »
Quote
Monsanto has not done any serious scientific research to see what effect RoundUp has on the environment including lethal dosages, which are mandated on any other chemicals
No, but other groups have, and its not good for RoundUp.

Quote
In addition, no long term studies have been done on GMOs. Recently, rats were studied beyond the 8 week mark that Monsanto has used in their studies. These rats developed huge cancerous tumors when exposed to GMO foods. RoundUp herbicides were also studied independently from Monsanto labs and were shown to have adverse neurological and homeostasis effects
The study you reference has even been criticized by advocates against Monsanto, as the study was done with incredible amounts of incompetence.

Quote
Yes, please follow the money. Both Demos and Reps are having their campaigns largely financed by Monsanto. Conflicts of interest abound. Look at who has been employed by Monsanto, including the current FDA chief
I know that, which is why I stated I wanted an independent, thorough study. Something neither side, nor the Government can do. You'd probably have to go to a private research university like Duke or Vanderbilt or somewhere outside of the country (except France, who did that initial test).

Quote
It is a shame that people do not want to see the ugly truth about Monsanto. They would rather bury their heads in the sand like an ostrich
No, I just refuse to play into this hyper-reactionary nonsense just because Monsanto is the new fashionable outrage.

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Offline Maria

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2013, 04:45:56 PM »
Quote
Monsanto has not done any serious scientific research to see what effect RoundUp has on the environment including lethal dosages, which are mandated on any other chemicals
No, but other groups have, and its not good for RoundUp.

...

I just refuse to play into this hyper-reactionary nonsense just because Monsanto is the new fashionable outrage.

PP

You have just contradicted yourself. In the first paragraph you concede that RoundUP is not good, but in the last paragraph, you call attacks against RoundUP (read: Monsanto) "hyper-reactionary nonsense."

Thus, you are accusing yourself of being hyper-reactionary and full of nonsense. Good job!  ::)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 04:46:31 PM by Maria »
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Offline JamesR

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #57 on: June 18, 2013, 05:20:09 PM »
My problem here is that most people cannot afford the "healthy" alternatives to Monsanto's allegedly evil products. You go over to Trader Joe's to purchase one of these alternatives and it ends up being like 4x as much money than Monsanto's product at any other basic grocery store. I'd much rather save money and die early than have no money and die late.
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2013, 05:39:37 PM »
My problem here is that most people cannot afford the "healthy" alternatives to Monsanto's allegedly evil products. You go over to Trader Joe's to purchase one of these alternatives and it ends up being like 4x as much money than Monsanto's product at any other basic grocery store. I'd much rather save money and die early than have no money and die late.

James you are not far from the truth.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2013, 05:40:44 PM »
Coincidence does not equal causation. I can throw up stats comparing the rise of autism with the rise of computers. It doesn't mean that Computers caused Autism.

Do I think Monsanto gets a pass? Sure they do. From "both" political parties. Follow the money.
Do I think GMO's could be harmful? Maybe they are, maybe they arent.
Do I think that Americans on the whole have crappy diets and are fat and diabetic because they sit in front of a computer all day, have an ever increasingly sedentary lifestyle, and constantly try BS fad diets, which wreck themselves and blame anyone or anything that is handily nearby? Yeppers.

Its one thing to say that a company like Monsanto doesn't get the oversight and regulation that they do, especially since they wield so much power. Its an entirely different thing to accuse them of knowingly promoting death for the bottom line. That is B-class video game material.

PP

Monsanto has not done any serious scientific research to see what effect RoundUp has on the environment including lethal dosages, which are mandated on any other chemicals. In addition, no long term studies have been done on GMOs. Recently, rats were studied beyond the 8 week mark that Monsanto has used in their studies. These rats developed huge cancerous tumors when exposed to GMO foods. RoundUp herbicides were also studied independently from Monsanto labs and were shown to have adverse neurological and homeostasis effects.

Yes, please follow the money. Both Demos and Reps are having their campaigns largely financed by Monsanto. Conflicts of interest abound. Look at who has been employed by Monsanto, including the current FDA chief.

It is a shame that people do not want to see the ugly truth about Monsanto. They would rather bury their heads in the sand like an ostrich.

There are uglier truths which often are allowed to function because we believe we are confronting the truly ugly truth.

It is called ideology.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #60 on: June 18, 2013, 05:58:46 PM »
My problem here is that most people cannot afford the "healthy" alternatives to Monsanto's allegedly evil products. You go over to Trader Joe's to purchase one of these alternatives and it ends up being like 4x as much money than Monsanto's product at any other basic grocery store. I'd much rather save money and die early than have no money and die late.

This is very true.  I may not be wild about the products Monsanto puts on the market, but the fact is, if we didn't have them, food prices would skyrocket because the food supply would shrink.  That might me grumble about high food prices, but for a good portion of the world, that is the difference between staying alive and starving.  I imagine their concerns about the alleged tumors that might develop 50 years down the road take a distant back seat to their starving children.

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Offline Kerdy

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #61 on: June 18, 2013, 08:08:25 PM »
My problem here is that most people cannot afford the "healthy" alternatives to Monsanto's allegedly evil products. You go over to Trader Joe's to purchase one of these alternatives and it ends up being like 4x as much money than Monsanto's product at any other basic grocery store. I'd much rather save money and die early than have no money and die late.

This is very true.  I may not be wild about the products Monsanto puts on the market, but the fact is, if we didn't have them, food prices would skyrocket because the food supply would shrink.  That might me grumble about high food prices, but for a good portion of the world, that is the difference between staying alive and starving.  I imagine their concerns about the alleged tumors that might develop 50 years down the road take a distant back seat to their starving children.


If farmers were paid to farm instead of not to farm there would be more than enough food and the prices wouldn't be artificially inflated.  And since America gives more charity and food away the the rest of the world combined, the hungry kid picture in Africa falls flat in effectiveness.

Offline Maria

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #62 on: June 18, 2013, 08:11:44 PM »
Ha ha!  There's an app for that!!!

Well, I hope the bees really aren't dying off, as it was said.


Maybe they were, but everything was to blame for it at the time from cellphones, roundup, DARPA, etc.

Let's see what google says, if I can find anything.

Again, way off topic.

What has DARPA to do with anything ... now you are sounding off false alarms and sounding like a tin-foil hat person.

orthonorm is saying the same thing about you when you link Monsanto to autism and blame Monsanto for the deaths of millions of children from autism.

Guess no one really cares about research that shows Monsanto's Roundup is not safe,

A lot of things in life aren't safe.

and that the chemicals in it do cause imbalances. Not only is depression and autism linked to Roundup, but also bee colony collapse.

Without any solid academic foundation other than the rantings and ravings of people affected by "autism" or "leaky gut disorder."

If you feel it is safe, then go and drink a glass and then tell us how you feel a year from now.
I would not give Roundup to my dog to drink.

I don't drink pesticides.  I know Coke and Pepsi aren't good for me; however, I drink them in moderation (e.g. a rare Super Big Gulp from 7-11).

RoundUp is advertised by Monsanto as an herbicide (a poison that kills herbs and weeds), not a pesticide (a poison that kills insects and/or rats). Roundup Ready GMO crops are those crops which can tolerate massive doses of RoundUp to kill off "weeds" such as milk thistle. Incidentally, milk thistle is very important in the life cycle of the Monarch butterfly, and the Monarch butterfly is one casualty of Monsanto's campaign to rid the earth of weeds and create GMO crops.

Many GMO plants have foreign DNA inserted into their genome by mad geneticists. Some of these foreign DNA genes enable the plant to repel and or kill insects. Since many GMO plants are insecticidal by design, whenever you eat a GMO crop such as corn, soy, or papaya, you may also be ingesting pesticides.

Monsanto has been lying when they say that RoundUp is not a pesticide. If the GMO crops are pesticidal and can also kill rats, what happens when a human (read rat) eats a GMO crop?
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #63 on: June 18, 2013, 08:15:21 PM »
And to think, we once scoffed the "organic" folks.  Not so much anymore.

Offline Maria

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #64 on: June 18, 2013, 08:18:02 PM »
My problem here is that most people cannot afford the "healthy" alternatives to Monsanto's allegedly evil products. You go over to Trader Joe's to purchase one of these alternatives and it ends up being like 4x as much money than Monsanto's product at any other basic grocery store. I'd much rather save money and die early than have no money and die late.

Have you even visited Trader Joes, James?

I shop there regularly, and whenever I go to Safeway, Vons, or one of the other chains, their prices are always higher and their produce tends to be rotten.

Price their eggs. Safeway and Vons charge much more for their eggs than does TJ.
I get avocados at a lower cost at TJ than I do at Smart and Final.
Avocados and fruit are very costly at Costco.

Perhaps you are confusing TJs with Whole Foods Market.
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #65 on: June 18, 2013, 08:19:45 PM »
My problem here is that most people cannot afford the "healthy" alternatives to Monsanto's allegedly evil products. You go over to Trader Joe's to purchase one of these alternatives and it ends up being like 4x as much money than Monsanto's product at any other basic grocery store. I'd much rather save money and die early than have no money and die late.

Have you even visited Trader Joes, James?

I shop there regularly, and whenever I go to Safeway, Vons, or one of the other chains, their prices are always higher and their produce tends to be rotten.

Price their eggs. Safeway and Vons charge much more for their eggs than does TJ.
I get avocados at a lower cost at TJ than I do at Smart and Final.
Avocados and fruit are very costly at Costco.

Perhaps you are confusing TJs with Whole Foods Market.
I always enjoy side of the road farmer markets.  Usually fresh picked that day by local farmers.

Offline Maria

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #66 on: June 18, 2013, 08:23:51 PM »
My problem here is that most people cannot afford the "healthy" alternatives to Monsanto's allegedly evil products. You go over to Trader Joe's to purchase one of these alternatives and it ends up being like 4x as much money than Monsanto's product at any other basic grocery store. I'd much rather save money and die early than have no money and die late.

This is very true.  I may not be wild about the products Monsanto puts on the market, but the fact is, if we didn't have them, food prices would skyrocket because the food supply would shrink.  That might me grumble about high food prices, but for a good portion of the world, that is the difference between staying alive and starving.  I imagine their concerns about the alleged tumors that might develop 50 years down the road take a distant back seat to their starving children.


I see that you have bought Monsanto's advertising lie.

Farmers in India, Africa, and the Philippines who are using Monsanto's GMO seeds have not been producing the hefty crop that Monsanto promised. It turns out that Monsanto farmers actually produce less crops. In India, many GMO farmers have committed suicide because of the financial ruin.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 08:24:20 PM by Maria »
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Offline Maria

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #67 on: June 18, 2013, 08:25:40 PM »
My problem here is that most people cannot afford the "healthy" alternatives to Monsanto's allegedly evil products. You go over to Trader Joe's to purchase one of these alternatives and it ends up being like 4x as much money than Monsanto's product at any other basic grocery store. I'd much rather save money and die early than have no money and die late.

Have you even visited Trader Joes, James?

I shop there regularly, and whenever I go to Safeway, Vons, or one of the other chains, their prices are always higher and their produce tends to be rotten.

Price their eggs. Safeway and Vons charge much more for their eggs than does TJ.
I get avocados at a lower cost at TJ than I do at Smart and Final.
Avocados and fruit are very costly at Costco.

Perhaps you are confusing TJs with Whole Foods Market.
I always enjoy side of the road farmer markets.  Usually fresh picked that day by local farmers.

I also enjoy farmers' markets. In Hawaii on the big island, there is a Farmers' Market in Kona where people can find lots of organic produce. They are delicious.
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #68 on: June 18, 2013, 08:26:06 PM »
My problem here is that most people cannot afford the "healthy" alternatives to Monsanto's allegedly evil products. You go over to Trader Joe's to purchase one of these alternatives and it ends up being like 4x as much money than Monsanto's product at any other basic grocery store. I'd much rather save money and die early than have no money and die late.

This is very true.  I may not be wild about the products Monsanto puts on the market, but the fact is, if we didn't have them, food prices would skyrocket because the food supply would shrink.  That might me grumble about high food prices, but for a good portion of the world, that is the difference between staying alive and starving.  I imagine their concerns about the alleged tumors that might develop 50 years down the road take a distant back seat to their starving children.


I see that you have bought Monsanto's advertising lie.

Farmers in India, Africa, and the Philippines who are using Monsanto's GMO seeds have not been producing the hefty crop that Monsanto promised. It turns out that Monsanto farmers actually produce less crops. In India, many GMO farmers have committed suicide because of the financial ruin.
Are these the same folks that make seeds which produce a product which doesn't produce viable seeds for the next year, causing farmers to be required to purchase their seeds from them again year after year?  

Offline Maria

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #69 on: June 18, 2013, 08:30:50 PM »
My problem here is that most people cannot afford the "healthy" alternatives to Monsanto's allegedly evil products. You go over to Trader Joe's to purchase one of these alternatives and it ends up being like 4x as much money than Monsanto's product at any other basic grocery store. I'd much rather save money and die early than have no money and die late.

This is very true.  I may not be wild about the products Monsanto puts on the market, but the fact is, if we didn't have them, food prices would skyrocket because the food supply would shrink.  That might me grumble about high food prices, but for a good portion of the world, that is the difference between staying alive and starving.  I imagine their concerns about the alleged tumors that might develop 50 years down the road take a distant back seat to their starving children.


I see that you have bought Monsanto's advertising lie.

Farmers in India, Africa, and the Philippines who are using Monsanto's GMO seeds have not been producing the hefty crop that Monsanto promised. It turns out that Monsanto farmers actually produce less crops. In India, many GMO farmers have committed suicide because of the financial ruin.
Are these the same folks that make seeds which produce a product which doesn't produce viable seeds for the next year, causing farmers to be required to purchase their seeds from them again year after year?  

Yes.

However, the GMO crop does produce viable seeds. Incidentally, there was a farmer who just lost a lawsuit to Monsanto for collecting these viable seeds and planting his next crop. That is a serious violation of Monsanto's contract for using their patented seeds. So, the farmer had to pay a hefty fine to Monsanto.

Yes, every year, the GMO farmers must sign a new contract with Monsanto, pay higher prices for the Monsanto seeds, and pay higher prices for the herbicide RoundUp and other recommended pesticides.
You would not believe all the chemicals that are mandatory for a GMO farmer. He barely makes any profits. Monsanto always profits and walks away smiling.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 08:31:40 PM by Maria »
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Offline Kerdy

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #70 on: June 18, 2013, 08:44:26 PM »
My problem here is that most people cannot afford the "healthy" alternatives to Monsanto's allegedly evil products. You go over to Trader Joe's to purchase one of these alternatives and it ends up being like 4x as much money than Monsanto's product at any other basic grocery store. I'd much rather save money and die early than have no money and die late.

This is very true.  I may not be wild about the products Monsanto puts on the market, but the fact is, if we didn't have them, food prices would skyrocket because the food supply would shrink.  That might me grumble about high food prices, but for a good portion of the world, that is the difference between staying alive and starving.  I imagine their concerns about the alleged tumors that might develop 50 years down the road take a distant back seat to their starving children.


I see that you have bought Monsanto's advertising lie.

Farmers in India, Africa, and the Philippines who are using Monsanto's GMO seeds have not been producing the hefty crop that Monsanto promised. It turns out that Monsanto farmers actually produce less crops. In India, many GMO farmers have committed suicide because of the financial ruin.
Are these the same folks that make seeds which produce a product which doesn't produce viable seeds for the next year, causing farmers to be required to purchase their seeds from them again year after year?  

Yes.

However, the GMO crop does produce viable seeds. Incidentally, there was a farmer who just lost a lawsuit to Monsanto for collecting these viable seeds and planting his next crop. That is a serious violation of Monsanto's contract for using their patented seeds. So, the farmer had to pay a hefty fine to Monsanto.

Yes, every year, the GMO farmers must sign a new contract with Monsanto, pay higher prices for the Monsanto seeds, and pay higher prices for the herbicide RoundUp and other recommended pesticides.
You would not believe all the chemicals that are mandatory for a GMO farmer. He barely makes any profits. Monsanto always profits and walks away smiling.


It wouldn't surprise me.  I'm a strong supporter of the average farmer.  Both sides of my family were farmers.  Then again, I'm a strong supporter of any local business.

Offline JamesR

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #71 on: June 18, 2013, 10:13:11 PM »
I like blueberries :) Has Monsanto done anything to pollute them yet?
...Or it's just possible he's a mouthy young man on an internet forum.
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #72 on: June 19, 2013, 09:25:45 AM »
Quote
Monsanto has not done any serious scientific research to see what effect RoundUp has on the environment including lethal dosages, which are mandated on any other chemicals
No, but other groups have, and its not good for RoundUp.

...

I just refuse to play into this hyper-reactionary nonsense just because Monsanto is the new fashionable outrage.

PP

You have just contradicted yourself. In the first paragraph you concede that RoundUP is not good, but in the last paragraph, you call attacks against RoundUP (read: Monsanto) "hyper-reactionary nonsense."

Thus, you are accusing yourself of being hyper-reactionary and full of nonsense. Good job!  ::)
I said something about a study of RoundUp, which stated it was not a good product, which is different IMO than attacking the entire corporation. Its like saying ALL of General Mills Cereals is evil because Capn Crunch sucks....and yes, you are being hyper-reactionary as your silly comment proved.

My problem here is that most people cannot afford the "healthy" alternatives to Monsanto's allegedly evil products. You go over to Trader Joe's to purchase one of these alternatives and it ends up being like 4x as much money than Monsanto's product at any other basic grocery store. I'd much rather save money and die early than have no money and die late.
James hit the nail on the head. This is the real reason companies like Monsanto and McDonalds will NEVER go away. The healthy stuff is way too expensive.

I remember reading an article about Michele Obama wanting to create more places in inner cities where healthy food is available, but the article never once stated anything about making it more affordable.

Case in point: I make ALOT of food and sauces from scratch. So I want to make a red sauce and go to get tomatoes. "Organic" Tomatoes, $1.98/lb, "regular" tomatoes, $0.88/lb. Thats a huge difference. Now Im not a very rich guy, but I also dont live in a box. If I turn away from it, there's NO way a single mom with 5 kids on stamps is going to buy it.

Quote
Yes, every year, the GMO farmers must sign a new contract with Monsanto, pay higher prices for the Monsanto seeds, and pay higher prices for the herbicide RoundUp and other recommended pesticides.
You would not believe all the chemicals that are mandatory for a GMO farmer. He barely makes any profits. Monsanto always profits and walks away smilin
Of course they do. They are a corporation in bed with politicians. We're still under this haze where we believe the political parties are different. They're BOTH in bed with corporations. Just ask Apple and their slave drivers, the Chinese.

Quote
Farmers in India, Africa, and the Philippines who are using Monsanto's GMO seeds have not been producing the hefty crop that Monsanto promised. It turns out that Monsanto farmers actually produce less crops
Again, I ask is there an independent study showing this?

PP
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Offline Maria

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #73 on: June 19, 2013, 02:17:29 PM »

Case in point: I make ALOT of food and sauces from scratch. So I want to make a red sauce and go to get tomatoes. "Organic" Tomatoes, $1.98/lb, "regular" tomatoes, $0.88/lb. Thats a huge difference. Now Im not a very rich guy, but I also dont live in a box. If I turn away from it, there's NO way a single mom with 5 kids on stamps is going to buy it.

Yes, every year, the GMO farmers must sign a new contract with Monsanto, pay higher prices for the Monsanto seeds, and pay higher prices for the herbicide RoundUp and other recommended pesticides.
You would not believe all the chemicals that are mandatory for a GMO farmer. He barely makes any profits. Monsanto always profits and walks away smiling.

Farmers in India, Africa, and the Philippines who are using Monsanto's GMO seeds have not been producing the hefty crop that Monsanto promised. It turns out that Monsanto farmers actually produce less crops

Of course they do. They are a corporation in bed with politicians. We're still under this haze where we believe the political parties are different. They're BOTH in bed with corporations. Just ask Apple and their slave drivers, the Chinese.

PP

PP, I have been saying all along that the Reps and Demos are in bed with Monsanto.
This is criminal and a conflict of interest.
The person in charge of the FDA is a former employee of Monsanto.

Independent studies?  ::)

Yes, Monsanto's own studies are biased and cannot be trusted.

The real world is now a laboratory for independent studies done by GMO farmers worldwide who are not making a profit. Non-GMO farmers both organic farmers and non-organic farmers are making a better profit as they do not mandated under contract to use the over-priced RoundUp and other chemicals needed to keep the constantly mutating weeds from taking over the so-called RoundUp ready crop.

PP have you ever studied the flawed theory behind Round-Up Ready GMO crops?
These GMO crops are engineered by DNA manipulation to make them more resistant to RoundUp and insects/rats who would like to feed on them.

HINT: If insects and rats find GMO crops offensive and/or deadly, how can these GMO crops be good for humans, especially if they are regularly dosed with RoundUp and other chemicals.

It would be better for you, PP, to eat non-GMO produce and you can find those at TJs for a lower price than the non-GMO organic produce also offered at TJs. Ralphs, Vons, and Safeway do not tell you if their produce is GMO or non-GMO. They simply do not give you a choice. However, the buyers at TJs are more careful and will not knowingly allow GMO produce on their shelves.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 02:24:16 PM by Maria »
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #74 on: June 19, 2013, 02:25:52 PM »
And to think, we once scoffed the "organic" folks.  Not so much anymore.

No I still do. No need to throw the bathwater out with the baby.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #75 on: June 19, 2013, 02:27:45 PM »
My problem here is that most people cannot afford the "healthy" alternatives to Monsanto's allegedly evil products. You go over to Trader Joe's to purchase one of these alternatives and it ends up being like 4x as much money than Monsanto's product at any other basic grocery store. I'd much rather save money and die early than have no money and die late.

Have you even visited Trader Joes, James?

I shop there regularly, and whenever I go to Safeway, Vons, or one of the other chains, their prices are always higher and their produce tends to be rotten.

Price their eggs. Safeway and Vons charge much more for their eggs than does TJ.
I get avocados at a lower cost at TJ than I do at Smart and Final.
Avocados and fruit are very costly at Costco.

Perhaps you are confusing TJs with Whole Foods Market.

Yeah, buying avocados in Minnesota makes sense in terms of supply chain security and health and environmental impact. Now if you cultivate an avotato, let me know.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #76 on: June 19, 2013, 02:29:52 PM »
My problem here is that most people cannot afford the "healthy" alternatives to Monsanto's allegedly evil products. You go over to Trader Joe's to purchase one of these alternatives and it ends up being like 4x as much money than Monsanto's product at any other basic grocery store. I'd much rather save money and die early than have no money and die late.

This is very true.  I may not be wild about the products Monsanto puts on the market, but the fact is, if we didn't have them, food prices would skyrocket because the food supply would shrink.  That might me grumble about high food prices, but for a good portion of the world, that is the difference between staying alive and starving.  I imagine their concerns about the alleged tumors that might develop 50 years down the road take a distant back seat to their starving children.


I see that you have bought Monsanto's advertising lie.

Farmers in India, Africa, and the Philippines who are using Monsanto's GMO seeds have not been producing the hefty crop that Monsanto promised. It turns out that Monsanto farmers actually produce less crops. In India, many GMO farmers have committed suicide because of the financial ruin.

These are different issues than the reactionary bourgeois health concerns you have. Again, as I said here or elsewhere, profit is blood.

But to pretend Monsanto is a "bad" corporation and that Trader Joe's is somehow much different is to fall into pure ideology which allow both to function quite well.
Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #77 on: June 19, 2013, 02:31:50 PM »

Case in point: I make ALOT of food and sauces from scratch. So I want to make a red sauce and go to get tomatoes. "Organic" Tomatoes, $1.98/lb, "regular" tomatoes, $0.88/lb. Thats a huge difference. Now Im not a very rich guy, but I also dont live in a box. If I turn away from it, there's NO way a single mom with 5 kids on stamps is going to buy it.

Yes, every year, the GMO farmers must sign a new contract with Monsanto, pay higher prices for the Monsanto seeds, and pay higher prices for the herbicide RoundUp and other recommended pesticides.
You would not believe all the chemicals that are mandatory for a GMO farmer. He barely makes any profits. Monsanto always profits and walks away smiling.

Farmers in India, Africa, and the Philippines who are using Monsanto's GMO seeds have not been producing the hefty crop that Monsanto promised. It turns out that Monsanto farmers actually produce less crops

Of course they do. They are a corporation in bed with politicians. We're still under this haze where we believe the political parties are different. They're BOTH in bed with corporations. Just ask Apple and their slave drivers, the Chinese.

PP

PP, I have been saying all along that the Reps and Demos are in bed with Monsanto.
This is criminal and a conflict of interest.
The person in charge of the FDA is a former employee of Monsanto.


You have no idea who every corporation engages in such practices and would engage in exactly the same practices as Monsanto if they could to turn a buck. Period.

Singling out corporations in some ideological manner is nonsense. Take a look at the Fortune 50's boards of directors. Then get back to me.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #78 on: June 19, 2013, 02:33:47 PM »
HINT: If insects and rats find GMO crops offensive and/or deadly

So you advocate imploding the global food supply chain and go back to hunting and gathering a large scale?

HINT: Agriculture = herbicide and pesticide.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #79 on: June 19, 2013, 02:36:27 PM »
Independent studies?  ::)

There is no such thing as an independent study. No such thing. Not at least in the naive manner that most hoi polloi rant about having.

For someone who studied science and I would guess has some experience with how "science" works within the consumer product industry, you seem a bit out of touch with the process of bringing any product to market.

You wouldn't happen to be against the FDA as well like marc, would you? I need to laugh a little bit more today.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #80 on: June 19, 2013, 02:47:33 PM »
I remember reading an article about Michele Obama wanting to create more places in inner cities where healthy food is available, but the article never once stated anything about making it more affordable.

I have a lot to say here as I sit literally on the line drawn here. I live in an incredibly impoverished neighborhood which ISN'T a food desert. We have a Kroger AND one of the countries oldest "farmer's markets".

And we have the typical liberal / organic folks trying to grow food to support people.

People have a lot of stuff backwards in this country when it comes to health, particularly how to deliver health foods to people.

We just need more freezers and shelf for frozen and canned vegetables. That's it. You have to keep in mind that most people pushing this anti-GMO or "organic" food nonsense have a lot of bizarre notions about food:

Paleo
Raw
Vegan
Slow
etc.

Oh well, we can discuss this in a more nuanced manner here or elsewhere.

Really the problem with most of the more liberal attempts to redress food issues in America are bourgeois and reactionary. Growing your own food. Why do we work?

Again, most of this talk, outside highlighting how Monsanto and other corporations kill human for profits, is nothing more than a politically correct way to discuss your class. Growing your own food or shopping at these ridiculous places means you have:

Money
or
Leisure

Which means you engaged in class rhetoric.

Beans, rice, frozen brussel sprouts, etc. What else do you need? And yeah, I literally have lived pretty much off that combo at times which some spinach tossed in.

I bought precooked beans. Cheap. Quick rice. Frozen veggies. With a microwave and a single pot, I am eating for almost nothing. If I wanted to cook my beans myself I could save a few more cents.

Really, I getting sick of the food politics.

Capitalism has offered effective methods of centralized food distribution. Let's not shuck that for the classist notions of "health" or the reactionary notions of "home cooked meals" and "growing your own food".
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Offline J Michael

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #81 on: June 19, 2013, 02:54:04 PM »
And to think, we once scoffed the "organic" folks.  Not so much anymore.

No I still do. No need to throw the bathwater out with the baby.

+1
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Offline J Michael

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #82 on: June 19, 2013, 02:54:29 PM »
My problem here is that most people cannot afford the "healthy" alternatives to Monsanto's allegedly evil products. You go over to Trader Joe's to purchase one of these alternatives and it ends up being like 4x as much money than Monsanto's product at any other basic grocery store. I'd much rather save money and die early than have no money and die late.

Have you even visited Trader Joes, James?

I shop there regularly, and whenever I go to Safeway, Vons, or one of the other chains, their prices are always higher and their produce tends to be rotten.

Price their eggs. Safeway and Vons charge much more for their eggs than does TJ.
I get avocados at a lower cost at TJ than I do at Smart and Final.
Avocados and fruit are very costly at Costco.

Perhaps you are confusing TJs with Whole Foods Market.

Yeah, buying avocados in Minnesota makes sense in terms of supply chain security and health and environmental impact. Now if you cultivate an avotato, let me know.

+1
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Offline J Michael

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #83 on: June 19, 2013, 02:56:38 PM »
My problem here is that most people cannot afford the "healthy" alternatives to Monsanto's allegedly evil products. You go over to Trader Joe's to purchase one of these alternatives and it ends up being like 4x as much money than Monsanto's product at any other basic grocery store. I'd much rather save money and die early than have no money and die late.

This is very true.  I may not be wild about the products Monsanto puts on the market, but the fact is, if we didn't have them, food prices would skyrocket because the food supply would shrink.  That might me grumble about high food prices, but for a good portion of the world, that is the difference between staying alive and starving.  I imagine their concerns about the alleged tumors that might develop 50 years down the road take a distant back seat to their starving children.


I see that you have bought Monsanto's advertising lie.

Farmers in India, Africa, and the Philippines who are using Monsanto's GMO seeds have not been producing the hefty crop that Monsanto promised. It turns out that Monsanto farmers actually produce less crops. In India, many GMO farmers have committed suicide because of the financial ruin.

These are different issues than the reactionary bourgeois health concerns you have. Again, as I said here or elsewhere, profit is blood.

But to pretend Monsanto is a "bad" corporation and that Trader Joe's is somehow much different is to fall into pure ideology which allow both to function quite well.

+1 (Though still awaiting a [clear, simple, concise] explanation about how all profit is blood and kills humans.)
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

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Offline J Michael

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #84 on: June 19, 2013, 02:57:06 PM »

Case in point: I make ALOT of food and sauces from scratch. So I want to make a red sauce and go to get tomatoes. "Organic" Tomatoes, $1.98/lb, "regular" tomatoes, $0.88/lb. Thats a huge difference. Now Im not a very rich guy, but I also dont live in a box. If I turn away from it, there's NO way a single mom with 5 kids on stamps is going to buy it.

Yes, every year, the GMO farmers must sign a new contract with Monsanto, pay higher prices for the Monsanto seeds, and pay higher prices for the herbicide RoundUp and other recommended pesticides.
You would not believe all the chemicals that are mandatory for a GMO farmer. He barely makes any profits. Monsanto always profits and walks away smiling.

Farmers in India, Africa, and the Philippines who are using Monsanto's GMO seeds have not been producing the hefty crop that Monsanto promised. It turns out that Monsanto farmers actually produce less crops

Of course they do. They are a corporation in bed with politicians. We're still under this haze where we believe the political parties are different. They're BOTH in bed with corporations. Just ask Apple and their slave drivers, the Chinese.

PP

PP, I have been saying all along that the Reps and Demos are in bed with Monsanto.
This is criminal and a conflict of interest.
The person in charge of the FDA is a former employee of Monsanto.


You have no idea who every corporation engages in such practices and would engage in exactly the same practices as Monsanto if they could to turn a buck. Period.

Singling out corporations in some ideological manner is nonsense. Take a look at the Fortune 50's boards of directors. Then get back to me.

+1
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline J Michael

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #85 on: June 19, 2013, 02:57:26 PM »
HINT: If insects and rats find GMO crops offensive and/or deadly

So you advocate imploding the global food supply chain and go back to hunting and gathering a large scale?

HINT: Agriculture = herbicide and pesticide.

+1
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline J Michael

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #86 on: June 19, 2013, 02:57:48 PM »
Independent studies?  ::)

There is no such thing as an independent study. No such thing. Not at least in the naive manner that most hoi polloi rant about having.

For someone who studied science and I would guess has some experience with how "science" works within the consumer product industry, you seem a bit out of touch with the process of bringing any product to market.

You wouldn't happen to be against the FDA as well like marc, would you? I need to laugh a little bit more today.

+1
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline J Michael

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #87 on: June 19, 2013, 02:58:47 PM »
I remember reading an article about Michele Obama wanting to create more places in inner cities where healthy food is available, but the article never once stated anything about making it more affordable.

I have a lot to say here as I sit literally on the line drawn here. I live in an incredibly impoverished neighborhood which ISN'T a food desert. We have a Kroger AND one of the countries oldest "farmer's markets".

And we have the typical liberal / organic folks trying to grow food to support people.

People have a lot of stuff backwards in this country when it comes to health, particularly how to deliver health foods to people.

We just need more freezers and shelf for frozen and canned vegetables. That's it. You have to keep in mind that most people pushing this anti-GMO or "organic" food nonsense have a lot of bizarre notions about food:

Paleo
Raw
Vegan
Slow
etc.

Oh well, we can discuss this in a more nuanced manner here or elsewhere.

Really the problem with most of the more liberal attempts to redress food issues in America are bourgeois and reactionary. Growing your own food. Why do we work?

Again, most of this talk, outside highlighting how Monsanto and other corporations kill human for profits, is nothing more than a politically correct way to discuss your class. Growing your own food or shopping at these ridiculous places means you have:

Money
or
Leisure

Which means you engaged in class rhetoric.

Beans, rice, frozen brussel sprouts, etc. What else do you need? And yeah, I literally have lived pretty much off that combo at times which some spinach tossed in.

I bought precooked beans. Cheap. Quick rice. Frozen veggies. With a microwave and a single pot, I am eating for almost nothing. If I wanted to cook my beans myself I could save a few more cents.

Really, I getting sick of the food politics.

Capitalism has offered effective methods of centralized food distribution. Let's not shuck that for the classist notions of "health" or the reactionary notions of "home cooked meals" and "growing your own food".

And, finally.........................+1

<<applause>>
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)

Offline Shiny

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #88 on: June 19, 2013, 03:02:00 PM »
Are Bush's baked beans any good?
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Offline J Michael

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Re: ITT: We discuss GMOs and the latest concerns
« Reply #89 on: June 19, 2013, 03:05:31 PM »
Are Bush's baked beans any good?

Yes! (But they'll give you wishy-washy pseudo-conservative, invasive farts ;D ;D)
"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

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