Earth to ialmisry:
Heaven to JesusisIam:
You are seriously ruining your own argument.
Yeah, I'll take my chances.
I don't even understand why you'd assign something like that,
I'm sure you don't.
as the lack of writing and examples from 150+ to 313, only prove my point better.
Are you boasting of your lack of understanding?
The quotes were not about context anyway.
Then why were they removed from their context?
Ridiculous, seriously, ridiculous points you are making. The assignment is ridiculous as it only proves my point more.
Well, we do have to
Lactantius was writing about icons as well as idols.
No, he was not. Of course, it helps to be familiar with the debates of the day-meaning, the pagan debates with pagans over the use of idols-to know exactly what he is talking about, and where he got it from.
ial, it's admitted in the Orthodox book "praying with icons".
I've personally met and talked with Jim Forrest several times (but not in a while). He's a nice guy, but not infallible. And he would be the first to tell you so. He learned to come to the Holy Tradition of the Church as well, and he is a passionate (despite his dispassionate demeanor) believer in it.
Even the EO admit this!
I know, given that no one ever believed in Jesusisiamism before you, and it will be forgotten after you leave it or leave the earth, that the idea that personal popehood does not exist-instant Tradition: just add opinion to the Church's Scripture-but it does not work that way. Even if what you are trying to put in his mouth had come from his heart.
What you are presenting just makes non-documented points to win an argument on a forum.
Oh, I play for bigger stakes. A year before I became Orthodox, I was still burning icons. So I know this foolishness when I see it.
The quote from Tertullian was addressing images and how they were different from the serpent on the staff.
That last one is special for you.
Here let me lay it out REALLY clear for you because you are not seeing the point.
If that were true, I would ask guidance from someone who could see, not from the blind.
Tertullian's quote: "Likewise, when forbidding the similitude to be made of all things which are in heaven, and in earth, and in the waters, He declared also the reasons, as being prohibitory of all material exhibition of a latent idolatry. For He adds: “You shall not bow down to them, nor serve them.” The form, however, of the brazen serpent which the Lord afterwards commanded Moses to make, afforded no pretext for idolatry, but was meant for the cure of those who were plagued with the fiery serpents."
So basically you have Moses using a serpent's staff which cured (tool): Tertullian found this acceptable. A tool was used.
an image was used.
Then you have bowing down to a similitude of things which are in heaven, earth, and in the waters - Tertullian used the word "latent" (definition - present and capable of emerging or developing but not now visible, obvious, active, or symptomatic ). He used the words "latent idolatry" - meaning capable of emerging or developing into idolatry. (then it goes on) "FOR HE ADDS: You shall not bow down to them, nor serve them".
"they saw the young child with Mary His mother, and fell down, and worshipped Him" Matthew 2:11
"And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held Him by the feet, and worshipped Him." Matthew 28:9
"And when they saw Him, they worshipped Him." Matthew 28:17
Of course, you are free to join the Jews and Muslims in denying that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. Just change your name to "MosesdidnotseeIAm" or "Muhammaddoesnotknowwhoheis."
Again - Tertullian: "Likewise, when forbidding the similitude to be made of all things which are in heaven, and in earth, and in the waters, He declared also the reasons, as being prohibitory of all material exhibition of a latent idolatry. For He adds: “You shall not bow down to them, nor serve them.” The form, however, of the brazen serpent which the Lord afterwards commanded Moses to make, afforded no pretext for idolatry, but was meant for the cure of those who were plagued with the fiery serpents."
There's your assignment. There's somebody in Early Christianity teaching against bowing to images in the likeness of things in heaven or Earth.
to someone who denied that the God who gave the commandments to Moses was the same "God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" and denied that the Word took flesh and dwelt among us, and hence denied that Christ was "the icon of the invisible God" as St. Paul preached.
And he is just repeating what was written in the 13th century. Nothing on the second century.
Of course then there's God (you know) Exodus 20:4-5 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them
Okay, what are the clergy doing in the photo above? Let's just keep this REALLY REALLY simple:
1) They have made images in the likeness of anything in Heaven. Do you agree?
2) Are they bowing down to them?
Real simple-just look to the icon in the middle to the right.
"they saw the young child with Mary His mother" she who held Him Whom the heavens could not hold "and fell down, and worshipped Him"
If you answer no to either of these two questions, then you are absolutely 100% delusional.
Again, we have to bow to your expertise at devising delusions.
Forget your assignment, I believe I completed it anyway -
No, you haven't. IOW, you failed, defeated in your attempt to prevail where Christ says the gates of Hell never will.
I started this thread and I asked for either:
1) An icon from 150 A.D. or before
2) Writings about icons and/OR the use of them in veneration
Our Lord asks, either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Nobody has produced. I've been given legends only
ah, proving the warning of Matthew 7:6
and twisted logic.
You argued from ignorance, and we argued from the wisdom of the Church, the Body of the Wisdom of God.
His intent was that now, through the Church
, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms. Epheisians 3:10.