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Author Topic: On appropriateness of admiring the fairer sex  (Read 1344 times) Average Rating: 0
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TheTrisagion
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« on: June 14, 2013, 11:03:01 AM »

So, here is my question for all you erudite scholars and Orthodox faithful.

I am married, but that doesn't always mean that I never gaze admiringly at an attractive woman who may walk past.  Is this a sin?  I'm sure I will get several "see your priest" comments, but I would like everyone's opinion here.  Is it possible to admire a woman without necessarily sexualizing her?  I make a concious effort never to do it in my wife's presence out of respect for her, although we on occasion may make jokes about seeing some hot guy/girl to each other.  If it is a sin to admire a woman's beauty, why did God make them so nice to look at?  If it is not a sin, where is the line drawn whereby you are crossing into sin?
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« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2013, 11:13:39 AM »


I think you may admire all of God's creations, as long as it's not a "lustful" admiration.

God has made some drop dead gorgeous men (and women), and there's nothing wrong with noticing.


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« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2013, 11:29:10 AM »

I've heard from RC priests that in such cases they just "give thanks to the God for such wonderful creation". So I think it's similar situation. And as also my (Orthodox of course) priest said, it's nothing wrong to notice handsome men (in my case), it's completely normal. If you didn't noticed the opposite set, it would be worse thing Wink

But, certainly, we shouldn't use the attractiveness of the opposite sex that's not our spouse in our mind, thoughts etc.
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« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2013, 11:58:00 AM »

You're married, not dead. Smiley I see no difference between appreciating a fine specimen of human beauty in the street and ogling movie stars on the big screen. Except perhaps we wouldn't be as impressed by the unretouched everyday images of movie stars, but I digress.

My husband looks at other women, I look at other men, we compare notes angel but at the end of the day we come home to each other and all the others mean nothing. It starts becoming a problem when the looker starts getting involved with the lookee, which can kick off with as little as an unsolicited comment (also known as 'corny pickup lines').
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« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2013, 12:18:10 PM »

What's with the heteronormativity? If there is no lust involved why not to admire both sexes?
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« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2013, 12:22:00 PM »

What's with the heteronormativity? If there is no lust involved why not to admire both sexes?

Well, because frankly, I don't find men's bodies to be attractive. If I did, perhaps I would admire them.

The Fathers always seem to be very anxious to suppress passions as soon as they begin to arise, but I wasn't really sure where arising started.

Oh...I just realized that that could really be taken the wrong way.  Shocked

On another note, I find it interesting that women were the first 3 respondents to my question.
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« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2013, 12:35:46 PM »

What's with the heteronormativity? If there is no lust involved why not to admire both sexes?

Well, because frankly, I don't find men's bodies to be attractive. If I did, perhaps I would admire them.

You admire female bodies when they walk past? In my country they tend to wear clothes. Tongue
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« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2013, 12:42:03 PM »

What's with the heteronormativity? If there is no lust involved why not to admire both sexes?

Well, because frankly, I don't find men's bodies to be attractive. If I did, perhaps I would admire them.

You admire female bodies when they walk past? In my country they tend to wear clothes. Tongue
Well then, I guess your missing out!  Kiss

I admire their...face.  That is part of their body, right?  Cool
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« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2013, 12:45:11 PM »

The Lord said that we commit adultery in our heart when we look lustfully upon a woman.  Noticing a woman's beauty does not necessarily mean looking lustfully, but "just noticing" in this way may be the beginning of lust and that adultery of the heart. 

If we do not control our gaze, the demons will find ways to put before our eyes those things which can distract and ensnare us.  The fact that we at least know not to look at other women while with our wives is an indication that  such looking is probably not blameless.  Of course, it may not be best to stare at the ground when a female boss or coworker is talking to us, but otherwise we should control our gaze to avoid all manner of temptations, lust being just one.  Looking around here and there can also be a sign of inner restlessness and a desire to find some fulfillment or diversion outside ourselves through indulging the senses and the flesh.  Instead, we could keep our gaze before us and keep our mind and heart in prayer, recalling our sinfulness and asking the Lord for His mercy. 

St. Gregory the Diologist said of St. Benedict of Nursia:
Quote
  I said that this venerable man did dwell with himself, because carrying himself circumspectly and carefully in the sight of his Creator, always considering his own actions, always examining himself, never did he turn the eyes of his soul from himself, to behold aught else whatsoever.

Chapter 3, http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/g1-benedict1.asp

We can also ask ourselves about our perception of beauty, and whether this perception of beauty is one that is fleshly or whether it is spiritual.  Do we perceive beauty merely in terms of the external appearance of the body, as does the world; or is our sensitivity to beauty a sensitivity to the beauty observed in a person who lives a life pleasing to God?  In other words, is it true beauty that gets our attention and causes us to marvel - a beauty that comes from within and animates a person with a certain light or glow; or is it the counterfeit and deceptive beauty which is of the flesh and often leads us into sin? 

Also, in noticing the beauty of the opposite sex, where is our mind afterwards?  Do we continue to think about this person, allowing this person's appearance to occupy our imagination?  If so, we are on a dangerous path.  These are at least a few things to think about. 
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« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2013, 12:50:40 PM »

Thank you Jah, that was very inciteful.  Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2013, 01:18:15 PM »

What's with the heteronormativity? If there is no lust involved why not to admire both sexes?

Well, because frankly, I don't find men's bodies to be attractive. If I did, perhaps I would admire them.

You admire female bodies when they walk past? In my country they tend to wear clothes. Tongue
It must be pretty cold in your country.
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« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2013, 01:20:21 PM »

Sex is never fair.
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« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2013, 01:26:35 PM »

Is it possible to admire a woman without necessarily sexualizing her?

Only if you are homosexual or European.
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« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2013, 01:27:04 PM »

Sex is never fair.
Do I have permission to post what I'm thinking?
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« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2013, 01:28:12 PM »

Sex is never fair.
Do I have permission to post what I'm thinking?

As long as you don't divulge too much about our relationship.
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« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2013, 01:32:59 PM »

Sex is never fair.
Do I have permission to post what I'm thinking?
Yes
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« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2013, 02:04:13 PM »

So, here is my question for all you erudite scholars and Orthodox faithful.

I am married, but that doesn't always mean that I never gaze admiringly at an attractive woman who may walk past.  Is this a sin?  I'm sure I will get several "see your priest" comments, but I would like everyone's opinion here.  Is it possible to admire a woman without necessarily sexualizing her?  I make a concious effort never to do it in my wife's presence out of respect for her, although we on occasion may make jokes about seeing some hot guy/girl to each other.  If it is a sin to admire a woman's beauty, why did God make them so nice to look at?  If it is not a sin, where is the line drawn whereby you are crossing into sin?

Great question!!

My understanding is that we commit adultery if we look upon a woman in order to lust after her.  Just noticing and admiring doesn't *necessarily* qualify as adultery.

One Orthodox priest I know says, "If in doubt, don't."  Grin
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« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2013, 02:33:48 PM »

So, here is my question for all you erudite scholars and Orthodox faithful.

I am married, but that doesn't always mean that I never gaze admiringly at an attractive woman who may walk past.  Is this a sin?  I'm sure I will get several "see your priest" comments, but I would like everyone's opinion here.  Is it possible to admire a woman without necessarily sexualizing her?  I make a concious effort never to do it in my wife's presence out of respect for her, although we on occasion may make jokes about seeing some hot guy/girl to each other.  If it is a sin to admire a woman's beauty, why did God make them so nice to look at?  If it is not a sin, where is the line drawn whereby you are crossing into sin?
It does not take much to go from one to the other.  Since people are different, there is not a specific time duration.  It depends on what is in your heart and what is in your wife's heart.  Let's say you look for 10 seconds.  Will you lust after that long?  If yes, don't.  How about your wife?  What would she think if you looked for 10 seconds?  Is that O.K.?  If not, don't.
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« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2013, 02:37:11 PM »

I feel sorry for many of you.
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« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2013, 03:46:39 PM »

Only if she is a 6 or higher.

Remember that 10s don't exist in real life.
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« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2013, 04:02:04 PM »

Only if she is a 6 or higher.

Remember that 10s don't exist in real life.
I would disagree.
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« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2013, 04:10:49 PM »

Only if she is a 6 or higher.

Remember that 10s don't exist in real life.
I would disagree.

Then you do not exist in real life.  Wink
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« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2013, 04:18:05 PM »

Only if she is a 6 or higher.

Remember that 10s don't exist in real life.

FALSE.

Mathematically, you would have approx 2.3% of females falling in the "10" category.

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« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2013, 04:27:57 PM »

10 = Flawless.

If you have seen a 10, you are pedestalizing.
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« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2013, 04:28:59 PM »

Only if she is a 6 or higher.

Remember that 10s don't exist in real life.

FALSE.

Mathematically, you would have approx 2.3% of females falling in the "10" category.



We're talkin' REAL life here, Beezelbub  Grin Grin.
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« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2013, 04:32:19 PM »

Only if she is a 6 or higher.

Remember that 10s don't exist in real life.
I would disagree.

Then you do not exist in real life.  Wink
Jeff you should know by now that I don't, based on my politics alone.

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« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2013, 04:33:05 PM »

10 = Flawless.

If you have seen a 10, you are pedestalizing.
Well in Omaha Nebraska of course you won't see a perfect 10
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« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2013, 04:40:52 PM »

Only if she is a 6 or higher.

Remember that 10s don't exist in real life.
I would disagree.

Then you do not exist in real life.  Wink
Jeff you should know by now that I don't, based on my politics alone.

Romantiscm has me roped in from the pit of despair.


So that's what it is.  And here I thought it was something else.  Are you quite sure, though, that it's from and not toWink
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« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2013, 04:42:25 PM »

I'm trying to be careful that my cynicism and romanticism doesn't do my head in.

It sure ain't healthy being cynical
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« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2013, 04:44:33 PM »

I'm trying to be careful that my cynicism and romanticism doesn't do my head in.

It sure ain't healthy being cynical

Life's a bitch and......Ooops... Grin Grin Grin Grin












then you marry one  laugh laugh
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« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2013, 04:45:01 PM »

Anyone's a 10 when you really love them.

</unbefitting naivete, but I don't care>
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« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2013, 04:46:46 PM »

Anyone's a 10 when you really love them.

</unbefitting naivete, but I don't care>

Now that I can agree with!!  Well said, good sir!
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« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2013, 04:49:15 PM »

I'm trying to be careful that my cynicism and romanticism doesn't do my head in.

It sure ain't healthy being cynical

Life's a bitch and......Ooops... Grin Grin Grin Grin












then you marry one  laugh laugh

And then you die. x_X

My husband calls me 'the most beautiful woman in the world', and that is enough. The top is the top, regardless of numbers. Wink
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« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2013, 04:52:46 PM »

I'm trying to be careful that my cynicism and romanticism doesn't do my head in.

It sure ain't healthy being cynical

Life's a bitch and......Ooops... Grin Grin Grin Grin












then you marry one  laugh laugh

And then you die.
x_X

My husband calls me 'the most beautiful woman in the world', and that is enough. The top is the top, regardless of numbers. Wink

Alex doesn't like that version  Sad.

Your husband sounds like a very good husband.  Keep him!  Wink
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« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2013, 04:58:09 PM »

Anyone's a 10 when you really love them.

</unbefitting naivete, but I don't care>
Yeah that's true.

yo girl after we broke up youre like a 6.7
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« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2013, 06:04:49 PM »

Anyone's a 10 when you really love them.

</unbefitting naivete, but I don't care>

That would be allowing emotions to warp rational quantification.

That would also be why we didn't go extinct after Lucy.
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« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2013, 06:05:48 PM »

10 = Flawless.

If you have seen a 10, you are pedestalizing.
Well in Omaha Nebraska of course you won't see a perfect 10

When I see an 8 in Omaha I levitate, my eyes burst out of my head, and my tongue rolls out in an anatomically implausible fashion.
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« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2013, 06:28:04 PM »

10 = Flawless.

If you have seen a 10, you are pedestalizing.
Well in Omaha Nebraska of course you won't see a perfect 10

When I see an 8 in Omaha I levitate, my eyes burst out of my head, and my tongue rolls out in an anatomically implausible fashion.
its that nebraska corn
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« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2013, 06:31:31 PM »

I'm trying to be careful that my cynicism and romanticism doesn't do my head in.

It sure ain't healthy being cynical

Life's a bitch and......Ooops... Grin Grin Grin Grin












then you marry one  laugh laugh

And then you die. x_X

My husband calls me 'the most beautiful woman in the world', and that is enough. The top is the top, regardless of numbers. Wink

AAARRRHHHH. Thought this was private . . .
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« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2013, 08:50:14 PM »

10 = Flawless.

If you have seen a 10, you are pedestalizing.
Well in Omaha Nebraska of course you won't see a perfect 10

When I see an 8 in Omaha I levitate, my eyes burst out of my head, and my tongue rolls out in an anatomically implausible fashion.
its that nebraska corn

Forsooth.
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« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2013, 07:43:12 AM »

If you're thinking of other women in terms of being "hot", or as some number on a scale of 1 to 10, that's a bad sign. If you're going to appreciate another woman's beauty, don't sexualize it. If you're sexualizing it, then as jah777 says, it's becoming lust.

The beauty of several female saints does not without mention in hagiography, so I wouldn't go to the other extreme and say we can't appreciate physical beauty at all. Just keep it Apollonian, rather than Dionysian.
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« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2013, 11:13:43 AM »

God made all of us beautiful. It is not a sin to admire each other's beauty; in fact, it is a normal reaction -- that's the point of beauty. However, I speak from an ideal point of view. In the fallen world, man has lost touch with the spiritual dimension. The whole person is not just the body, but also the soul. First and foremost you love and value someone based on the fact that they are a person and that person also radiates through a body. You do not admire the body separately. The higher the level of spiritual perfection you achieve, the better you able to appreciate someone's beauty.

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« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2013, 11:55:02 AM »

So, here is my question for all you erudite scholars and Orthodox faithful.

I am married, but that doesn't always mean that I never gaze admiringly at an attractive woman who may walk past.  Is this a sin?  I'm sure I will get several "see your priest" comments, but I would like everyone's opinion here.  Is it possible to admire a woman without necessarily sexualizing her?  I make a concious effort never to do it in my wife's presence out of respect for her, although we on occasion may make jokes about seeing some hot guy/girl to each other.

Dude you love your wife yeah? How would you feel if your wife stares at every goodlooking guy in a restaurant you are having dinner in with " admiring" gaze? While you are sitting right infront of her? Wandering eyes spell trouble my friend, I don't care what religion you follow or what book you have read. Aesthetically being aware dose not translate into eyes that tend to follow every beauty that passess by.

May I give unsolicited advise? You got your wife with you ? keep your eyes on her especially when a beautiful woman is passing by. Otherwise even if you get forgiveness from God , you might not get it from your wife, unless of course she is the type who doesn't mind sharing that bit of you or herself:) in that case you are in luck you might even get to comment on the hotness  of the woman that just passed by you guys.lol

You have said you make a conscious effort not to, good man! Smart man! Now don't mess up Wink


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« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2013, 12:00:52 PM »

If you have seen a 10, you are pedestalizing.
You need to stop listening to your dad's bro advice.

That would also be why we didn't go extinct after Lucy.

You need to stop listening to your dad's "wolfpack" evolutionary hypotheses.

I am seeing a pattern.
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« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2013, 12:41:00 PM »

What's with the heteronormativity? If there is no lust involved why not to admire both sexes?

Well, because frankly, I don't find men's bodies to be attractive. If I did, perhaps I would admire them.

You admire female bodies when they walk past? In my country they tend to wear clothes. Tongue

But it's cold.
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« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2013, 01:35:57 PM »

If you're thinking of other women in terms of being "hot", or as some number on a scale of 1 to 10, that's a bad sign. If you're going to appreciate another woman's beauty, don't sexualize it. If you're sexualizing it, then as jah777 says, it's becoming lust.

The beauty of several female saints does not without mention in hagiography, so I wouldn't go to the other extreme and say we can't appreciate physical beauty at all. Just keep it Apollonian, rather than Dionysian.
assuming you aren't gay or asexual, if you notice it, you've already sexualized it.duh
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« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2013, 01:40:27 PM »

If you have seen a 10, you are pedestalizing.
You need to stop listening to your dad's bro advice.

That would also be why we didn't go extinct after Lucy.

You need to stop listening to your dad's "wolfpack" evolutionary hypotheses.

I am seeing a pattern.

Lulz.  He would have been the first to criticize if he weren't working.

Some truths you pick up by reading.  Others by experience. 

Other than a false argument against the source, do you think I am wrong?  Any counterargument about the flowers of wuv?  I guess evolution is a hard concept when you think that wuv comes from cupid's arrow rather than a concoction of brain chemicals.
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« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2013, 01:56:43 PM »

Some truths you pick up by reading.  Others by experience.  

Punch-dad told me, when I was young
Come sit beside me, my other son
And listen closely, to hear my news:
And if you do this
We'll knock back some microbrews:

Ohh, take your time... Don't walk too fast!
Broads will come, and chicks will pass.
Go make a harem, and you'll find hormones,
And when you're rejected,
There's always more of em'.

And be a skanky kind of man!
And maybe some day you'll read The Game, and understand!
Private, be a skanky kind of man.
Won't you post this for me son,
If you can?

I guess evolution is a hard concept when you think that wuv comes from cupid's arrow rather than a concoction of brain chemicals.
Without the rest of the body, another to bond with, a world to encounter, jobs to perform, and mistakes to make, infatuation hormones don't serve much of a purpose.

I guess love requires more than a concoction of brain chemicals.
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« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2013, 02:31:27 PM »

What's with the heteronormativity? If there is no lust involved why not to admire both sexes?

Well, because frankly, I don't find men's bodies to be attractive. If I did, perhaps I would admire them.

You admire female bodies when they walk past? In my country they tend to wear clothes. Tongue

But it's cold.

Here's a picture of a Finnish independence day party:

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« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2013, 10:25:49 PM »

So, here is my question for all you erudite scholars and Orthodox faithful.

I am married, but that doesn't always mean that I never gaze admiringly at an attractive woman who may walk past.  Is this a sin?  I'm sure I will get several "see your priest" comments, but I would like everyone's opinion here.  Is it possible to admire a woman without necessarily sexualizing her?  I make a concious effort never to do it in my wife's presence out of respect for her, although we on occasion may make jokes about seeing some hot guy/girl to each other.  If it is a sin to admire a woman's beauty, why did God make them so nice to look at?  If it is not a sin, where is the line drawn whereby you are crossing into sin?

I do not know the answer to this since I never really understood Ialmisry's definition of Lust in this thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,38047.msg603869.html#msg603869

It seemed too lax to me at the time.

The definition of Lust is important.

Your definition of sexualizing is also important.

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« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2013, 10:29:23 PM »

... unless of course she is the type who doesn't mind sharing that bit of you or herself:) in that case you are in luck you might even get to comment on the hotness  of the woman that just passed by you guys.

Let it be so among many!
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« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2013, 10:43:39 PM »

What's with the heteronormativity? If there is no lust involved why not to admire both sexes?

Well, because frankly, I don't find men's bodies to be attractive. If I did, perhaps I would admire them.

You admire female bodies when they walk past? In my country they tend to wear clothes. Tongue

But it's cold.

Here's a picture of a Finnish independence day party:



Dang, I wanna go to Finland. Polar bears roasting penguins and beer on trams. What's not to love?
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« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2013, 10:48:44 PM »

As we were all listening with enjoyment to his holy teaching, suddenly there passed by in front of us the foremost actress of Antioch, the star of the local theatre. She was seated on a donkey and accompanied by a great and fanciful procession. She seemed to be clothed in nothing but gold and pearls and other precious stones. Even her feet were covered with gold and pearls. The male and female slaves accompanying her were extravagantly clothed in costly garments, and the torcs round their necks were all of gold. Some of them went before, others followed after.

The worldly crowd could not get enough of their beauty and attractiveness. As they passed by us the air was filled with the scent of musk and other most delicious perfumes, but when the bishops saw her passing by so immodestly, with her head bare, and the outlines of her body clearly visible, nothing over her shoulders as well as her head, and yet the object of such adulation, they all fell silent, groaned and sighed, and averted their eyes as if being forced to witness some grave sin.

Chapter III
The most blessed Nonnus, however, looked at her long and hard, and even after she had passed by he looked after her for as long as she remained in sight. Not till then did he turn round and speak to the other bishops.

"Weren't you delighted to see such beauty as hers?"

They answered nothing. He leant his head down on to his knees and shed tears into the handkerchief which he held on his lap between his holy hands. He sighed deeply and turned again to the bishops.

"Weren't you delighted to see such beauty as hers?"

Again they answered nothing.

"Truly, I was extremely delighted. Her beauty pleased me very much, for God has preordained to bring her here into the presence of this worthy and eminent bishop of Antioch as a judgment on us all personally as much as on our episcopacy. Think, my beloved brothers. How many hours did this woman spend in her dressing room, washing herself and dressing herself and decorating herself with the utmost care and attention, so that there might be nothing lacking in the beauty of her ornamentation, simply so that she would not disappoint all her various admirers, who are here today and gone tomorrow? But for us there is an almighty father in heaven, an immortal spouse who makes promises to those who serve him, who offers heavenly riches and eternal rewards which are beyond estimation, which eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor yet have entered into the heart of mankind, which God has prepared for them that love him (1 Corinthians 2.9).

"What more can I say? We have his promise that we shall see the great and splendid and inestimable face of our bride, which Cherubim dare not gaze upon, but we do not take care to adorn ourselves, or purge ourselves of all the filthy thoughts of our wretched souls. We just let them lie there."

Chapter IV
Having said all this he took me, his sinful deacon, to the hospice where a cell had been assigned to us. He fell down and laid his face on the floor, [The Latin text literally has 'threw himself face down on the floor'. But it is impossible to beat one's breast in such a position, so I assume that what is meant is that he assumed the position which we are familiar with today from TV pictures of Islamic men prostrating themselves in the mosque]]  beating his breast and crying.

"O Lord Jesus Christ, forgive me an unworthy sinner, for the decoration of a harlot lasting but a day is greater than the decoration of my soul. How can I show my face before you? What words can I offer to justify myself in your sight? But I will not hide my heart from you, for you know all our secret thoughts. Woe to me, an unworthy sinner, for I stand before your altar, and I do not offer the beauty of soul that you expect of me. That woman vows to make herself pleasing to men, and she succeeds. I vow to make myself pleasing to you, and I fail because of my slothfulness. I stand stripped bare before you in heaven as in earth, for I do not fulfil your commandments. I cannot put any trust in my own achievements. My hope lies solely in your mercy, by which I trust to be saved."

With these words, and a great deal of loud weeping, we celebrated the feast of the day.

(From the original Life of St. Pelagia the Penitent, by James the Deacon: http://www.vitae-patrum.org.uk/page46.html)

It seems not just St. Nonnus was paying attention, but James the Deacon, who wrote the edifying tale.
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« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2013, 12:07:17 AM »

So, here is my question for all you erudite scholars and Orthodox faithful.

I am celibate, but that doesn't always mean that I never gaze admiringly at an attractive guy who may walk past.  Is this a sin?  I'm sure I will get several "see your priest" comments, but I would like everyone's opinion here.  Is it possible to admire a person of the same sex without necessarily sexualizing him?  I make a concious effort never to do it in my wife's presence out of respect for her my convictions, although I on occasion may make jokes about seeing some hot guy/girl to each other.  If it is a sin to admire a man's beauty, why did God make them so nice to look at?  If it is not a sin, where is the line drawn whereby you are crossing into sin?
I've changed this a bit.  I feel the same way in my situation.  Men are beautiful.  If God made them this way, why shouldn't I enjoy looking at them?  It's not like anything is going to happen from admiring someone.

But here is where the devil whispers things into our ears.

You know it's wrong.  Don't do it.  Smiley
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« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2013, 12:59:18 AM »

New thread:

Is lust a sin?
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« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2013, 01:14:54 AM »

So, here is my question for all you erudite scholars and Orthodox faithful.

I am celibate, but that doesn't always mean that I never gaze admiringly at an attractive guy who may walk past.  Is this a sin?  I'm sure I will get several "see your priest" comments, but I would like everyone's opinion here.  Is it possible to admire a person of the same sex without necessarily sexualizing him?  I make a concious effort never to do it in my wife's presence out of respect for her my convictions, although I on occasion may make jokes about seeing some hot guy/girl to each other.  If it is a sin to admire a man's beauty, why did God make them so nice to look at?  If it is not a sin, where is the line drawn whereby you are crossing into sin?
I've changed this a bit.  I feel the same way in my situation.  Men are beautiful.  If God made them this way, why shouldn't I enjoy looking at them?  It's not like anything is going to happen from admiring someone.

But here is where the devil whispers things into our ears.

You know it's wrong.  Don't do it.  Smiley


I think it is a good revision Tikhon.
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« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2013, 01:21:05 AM »

What's with the heteronormativity? If there is no lust involved why not to admire both sexes?

Well, because frankly, I don't find men's bodies to be attractive. If I did, perhaps I would admire them.

The Fathers always seem to be very anxious to suppress passions as soon as they begin to arise, but I wasn't really sure where arising started.

Oh...I just realized that that could really be taken the wrong way.  Shocked

On another note, I find it interesting that women were the first 3 respondents to my question.
The Fathers weren't dumb.  Remember, most women aren't aroused in the same manner as men, visually. 

Now my opinion.  IF you can admire someone strictly in no sexual way, ok.  The instant you realize that isn't the case, guard yourself.
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« Reply #57 on: June 26, 2013, 01:39:09 AM »

My standard pat answer is this;

When you are married you shouldn't talk about your spouse outside of their presence in a way you couldn't in their presence. The same would go for how you look at people of the opposite sex. A glance isn't going to offend your wife, rubbernecking a hot girl would.

One of my pet peeves is when spouses bash on each other around their friends. I really don't want to hear about how incompetent your husband is. If you have issues with him, then talk to him about them. I won't take part in any husband gripe fest.
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« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2013, 01:44:25 AM »

You'd be surprised, more and more women are visually stimulated primarily. I blame it on shows like Nip/Tuck and True Blood.
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« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2013, 01:45:44 AM »

New thread:

Is lust a sin?

Ok, I'm just thinking out loud here, but doesn't Jesus imply that people who lust should be put to death?

First, we need to go to what Jesus explicitly said about lust:

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." - Matt. 5:27-28

Therefore, to lust is to commit adultery. And Jesus clearly believed that the Old Testament laws were still in force and completely valid:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." - Matt. 5:17-18

Now what does the Old Testament say about adultery?

"If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." - Deut. 22:22

Therefore, those who lust commit adultery, and those who commit adultery deserve to die, according to Jesus, and the Mosaic law which Jesus said would never be destroyed.

However, we must keep in mind that Jesus said: "My kingdom is not of this world" (Jn. 18:36), therefore the death penalty that an adulterer deserves is a spiritual one, not a physical one.

Has not this luster, in a sense, put themselves to death, a spiritual death, by their act? Others may not even know about the lusting, but the person does. In this way, since they were responsible for their own spiritual death, are they not spiritual suicides?
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« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2013, 01:56:00 AM »

So, here is my question for all you erudite scholars and Orthodox faithful.

I am celibate, but that doesn't always mean that I never gaze admiringly at an attractive guy who may walk past.  Is this a sin?  I'm sure I will get several "see your priest" comments, but I would like everyone's opinion here.  Is it possible to admire a person of the same sex without necessarily sexualizing him?  I make a concious effort never to do it in my wife's presence out of respect for her my convictions, although I on occasion may make jokes about seeing some hot guy/girl to each other.  If it is a sin to admire a man's beauty, why did God make them so nice to look at?  If it is not a sin, where is the line drawn whereby you are crossing into sin?
I've changed this a bit.  I feel the same way in my situation.  Men are beautiful.  If God made them this way, why shouldn't I enjoy looking at them?  It's not like anything is going to happen from admiring someone.

But here is where the devil whispers things into our ears.

You know it's wrong.  Don't do it.  Smiley

Kinda weird to read this (just like anything aha has ever written).

Still though, kind of puts things in perspective, if it is wrong for a homosexual, it is wrong for a heterosexual.  Or something like that.  I'm not really sure how to make that grammatically and contextually correct, hopefully it will pass in an Internet forum.
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« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2013, 02:19:06 AM »

New thread:

Is lust a sin?

Ok, I'm just thinking out loud here, but doesn't Jesus imply that people who lust should be put to death?

First, we need to go to what Jesus explicitly said about lust:

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." - Matt. 5:27-28

Therefore, to lust is to commit adultery. And Jesus clearly believed that the Old Testament laws were still in force and completely valid:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." - Matt. 5:17-18

Now what does the Old Testament say about adultery?

"If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." - Deut. 22:22

Therefore, those who lust commit adultery, and those who commit adultery deserve to die, according to Jesus, and the Mosaic law which Jesus said would never be destroyed.

However, we must keep in mind that Jesus said: "My kingdom is not of this world" (Jn. 18:36), therefore the death penalty that an adulterer deserves is a spiritual one, not a physical one.

Has not this luster, in a sense, put themselves to death, a spiritual death, by their act? Others may not even know about the lusting, but the person does. In this way, since they were responsible for their own spiritual death, are they not spiritual suicides?
I'm also just thinking aloud here.

In the Old Testament, one was guilty of sin before he even knew he sinned (Leviticus 5:17).

The question "doesn't Jesus imply that people who lust should be put to death?" In a physical sense is moot, in order to be put to death, one must produce two or more witnesses (Deuteronomy 19:15).

However, God sees everything from Heaven (Psalm 33:13) and God is our ultimate spiritual Judge (Isaiah 33:22).  So a spiritual adultery is punishable by a spiritual death.

In the end, God Knows our hearts (Luke 16:15), if Jesus could forgive the prostitute who came to him (Luke 7:36-50) I'm sure that, with repentance, God will forgive you for missing the mark.
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