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Author Topic: Miters or Mitres  (Read 3059 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: June 20, 2013, 01:45:13 PM »

It doesn't come with a status that confers other rights/privileges?         

No.
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« Reply #91 on: June 20, 2013, 01:50:20 PM »

Yes presbyters in mitres is a horrible Russian practice introduced by Catherine the Great. It really needs to be done away with (along with most of the Russian award systems that developed in the 1800's).
The Russian use of a mitre for priests is only an "award"?  It doesn't come with a status that confers other rights/privileges?         

Yes, most everything that the Russian clergy wear outside of the normal vestments everyone else wears are awards that come from the pay scale developed under Czarist Russia in the 17 and 18 hundreds.
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« Reply #92 on: June 20, 2013, 02:07:00 PM »

Yes presbyters in mitres is a horrible Russian practice introduced by Catherine the Great. It really needs to be done away with (along with most of the Russian award systems that developed in the 1800's).

Interesting.  In our tradition, the chorepiscopos is allowed to use some pontificals (canonically, he has some powers that a regular priest does not have, although he is not a bishop).  He may wear a red cassock instead of black, wears a pectoral cross, uses a staff, and in the Liturgy also makes use of a hand-cross, and uses the "mitre", but in a different way from the way bishops wear it.  

The Syriac "mitre" is really more of a "veil", worn over the head.  On top of this goes the phelonion and omophorion, and the hood is lowered or raised by the bishop when the rubrics indicate.  But for a chorepiscopos, the "mitre" is merely draped over the shoulders on top of the phelonion.  He never makes use of the omophorion.

The Russian use of a mitre for priests is only an "award"?  It doesn't come with a status that confers other rights/privileges?        
We had one of your chorbishops visit once.  He explained his status as doing the job of the bishop but with none of the rights/powers/privileges of the bishop.

Btw, as I have contended elsewhere, the presbyterate arose out of the chorepiscopate.
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« Reply #93 on: June 20, 2013, 03:57:19 PM »

When a bishop serves like this he never uses the mitre or Trikiria and Dikiria. He may choose to still use the staff to cense and when he preaches.

So what are the rules on "headgear" for bishops in the Byzantine rite?  It seems that the mitre is not an essential element of a bishop's vesture when serving.  Is it ever "required", or is it just customary in some forms of celebration more than others? 

In our Church, a bishop basically vests like a priest, with the exception of the "mitre" and omophorion, which are always worn at every Liturgy.  They are essential. 

You know what they say about rules and bishops, it is more like the pirates code, they are guidelines.

Arrr!
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« Reply #94 on: June 20, 2013, 04:02:05 PM »

I thought of this thread when I watched the video at this page:

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2013/06/divine-liturgy-in-catacomb-of-st.html

Obviously, the setting is unusual, but I think it's nice to see a bishop serve as a priest.  Maybe a mitre could've/should've been used, but I think this works just fine. 

When a bishop serves like this he never uses the mitre or Trikiria and Dikiria. He may choose to still use the staff to cense and when he preaches.

And then he is assisted by two presbyters who wear mitres. Makes sense not.

Where do you see this?

Presbyters in mitres? All the time.

I also remember seing a picture of Metr. Jonah in phelon and mitre.
Mitring priests was dropped by the OCA in the 1980's some time, but was practiced before.

Great story about the late Archbishop, ever the "rusnak."  Smiley

ACROD only mitred one priest priest in its history, seventy years or so ago. The Ukrainians seem to like the practice, though, both Orthodox and the Greek Catholic ones as well. 
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« Reply #95 on: June 20, 2013, 04:18:43 PM »

It is pretty common among Greek Catholics for bishops to serve like this.  Recently Major Archbishop Sviatoslav concelebrated with Pope Francis like this.

I saw a picture of that, but it seemed to me the Major Archbishop was wearing the sakkos.  Was I wrong? 

Yes, he wore the sakkos and small omophor.
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« Reply #96 on: June 20, 2013, 10:34:52 PM »

We had one of your chorbishops visit once.  He explained his status as doing the job of the bishop but with none of the rights/powers/privileges of the bishop.

Btw, as I have contended elsewhere, the presbyterate arose out of the chorepiscopate.

Are you sure the presbyterate itself rose out of the chorepiscopate, or do you mean that the "independent' ministry exercised by presbyters rose out of the chorepiscopate? 

And I think I know which chorbishop of ours you're talking about: he's a character (Smiley), his explanation (not terribly accurate) doesn't surprise me.  Chorbishops nowadays are basically "archpriests" (an award).  They don't have any extra authority unless specifically delegated (ideally, they'd function like deans of regions within dioceses).  But they do have some ancient canonical prerogatives (e.g., they can ordain chanters, readers, and subdeacons) which they almost never exercise because they require episcopal permission.  In other words, today they're basically pretty priests.     
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« Reply #97 on: June 20, 2013, 11:18:58 PM »

We had one of your chorbishops visit once.  He explained his status as doing the job of the bishop but with none of the rights/powers/privileges of the bishop.

Btw, as I have contended elsewhere, the presbyterate arose out of the chorepiscopate.

Are you sure the presbyterate itself rose out of the chorepiscopate, or do you mean that the "independent' ministry exercised by presbyters rose out of the chorepiscopate? 

And I think I know which chorbishop of ours you're talking about: he's a character (Smiley), his explanation (not terribly accurate) doesn't surprise me.  Chorbishops nowadays are basically "archpriests" (an award).  They don't have any extra authority unless specifically delegated (ideally, they'd function like deans of regions within dioceses).  But they do have some ancient canonical prerogatives (e.g., they can ordain chanters, readers, and subdeacons) which they almost never exercise because they require episcopal permission.  In other words, today they're basically pretty priests.     

Are they celibate?
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« Reply #98 on: June 20, 2013, 11:21:54 PM »

They can be chosen from among the celibate or married clergy.  If they are of the latter, it is the highest office they can hold.  If they are from among the celibate clergy and are also monastics (we have non-monastic celibate clergy too), they basically look like bishops unless you see them vested for the Liturgy. 
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« Reply #99 on: June 25, 2013, 12:59:23 AM »

I made the mistake of naming the subject "miter or mitres," as the topic is wider (podkarpatska understood the broader point).  Nevertheless, it is good that I did so. 

I will tell you where this all came from.  Several priests that I have talked to have stated the popular opinion that "we have got to stop dressing our Bishops up like the emperor and singing the emperor's chant (eis polla eti despota) to them."  The reason given is that, if all this started with transferring the emperor's prerogatives to the bishop at the fall of Constantinople, then we should cease doing it, immediately.  My point is that I am not convinced that this is the case. 

Sooooo, let us say that I am wrong, that indeed, all of this started with the fall of Constantinople.  I assume that Gunarr and Cyrillic, our two young feisty 'converts' on this thread, agree that it should be done away with.  Otherwise, how can you defend its continued use?  If it is the case as both of you said, it is wholly unecclesial.     

 I don't know if Many Years was used only for the Emperor. Although when the Emperor was crowned, they did sing Many Years (This is according to De Ceremonies) I don't really care about that.

As for my opinion as to whether the mitre should still be used, I guess I would say I would not complain if they stopped using it. I would complain though if they stopped using the staff.

I don't know what to think about the long cape that has to be carried around.

those are my opinions

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